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Author Topic: When Patriarchates Have to Move  (Read 3276 times) Average Rating: 0
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Tamara
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« on: March 23, 2009, 01:18:49 AM »

They should declare themselves autocephalous and schism from their Patriarchate, as should the Antiochians in America.

George,

Lent is effecting your thinking process. Try the new fasting recipe for breakfast I just posted. It should help with any light-headness you might be feeling at this point during the fast.  Wink Kiss Smiley

Don't you think the Antiochians in America should declare themselves autocephalous?

Maybe we should wait until Antioch serves us on a platter to the EP, and then declare autocephaly.

Or made stay under the EP and make George's day.

Or, maybe, they should join the GOA under the EP, and have the OCA join the AOA & GOA under the EP, and have administrative unity, and then worry about autocephaly another day.

Another day won't be long coming with the population in Istanbul shrinking. It actually might be the fastest way to gain unity and autocephaly.
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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2009, 01:51:08 AM »

Another day won't be long coming with the population in Istanbul shrinking. It actually might be the fastest way to gain unity and autocephaly.
You'll be waiting a long time for that Tamara. The persecuted Christians of Constantinople are a resilient group, and anyway, the Patriarch's flock comprises millions.
 Better declare your own autocephaly now (if you have the courage).
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« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2009, 02:30:21 AM »

Another day won't be long coming with the population in Istanbul shrinking. It actually might be the fastest way to gain unity and autocephaly.
You'll be waiting a long time for that Tamara. The persecuted Christians of Constantinople are a resilient group, and anyway, the Patriarch's flock comprises millions.
 Better declare your own autocephaly now (if you have the courage).

George,

I realize they are very resilient but they aren't immortal. They age just like the rest of us. Once all the Turkish citizens of Greek heritage have passed on, there will be much confusion to follow as the hierarchs of the millions decide what happens next. The biggest questions will be who decides who will be nominated to the EP which can no longer reside in Istanbul? And will the EP live up to its name as "ecumenical" and allow non-Greeks to be members of the synod or allow them to be nominated as the Ecumenical Patriarch? These questions will lead to upheaval and at that point
I think autocephaly will become awfully attractive to most of the Orthodox Christians who live in separate continents.
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« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2009, 02:55:06 AM »

The biggest questions will be who decides who will be nominated to the EP which can no longer reside in Istanbul?
Why is that such a big question?
When the Patriarch of Antioch left Antioch, who decided who will be nominated? Wasn't it the Synod? And did your Patriarch's title change to "The Patriarch Of Damascus" when he moved? What has this to do with anything? Why is that such a big decider about whether you become autocephalous?
If you ask me, you are drawing lines in the sand which will never be crossed because your Archdiocese is afraid of declaring it's autocephaly against the will of your Patriarch.
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2009, 11:48:02 PM »

The biggest questions will be who decides who will be nominated to the EP which can no longer reside in Istanbul?
Why is that such a big question?
When the Patriarch of Antioch left Antioch, who decided who will be nominated? Wasn't it the Synod? And did your Patriarch's title change to "The Patriarch Of Damascus" when he moved? What has this to do with anything?

Today, the Patriarch of Antioch has 700,000 to one million of his flock still residing in Syria alone. The Metropolitans in Syria and Lebanon still all have flocks under their care who were the flock of the patriarchate. And, at the time, Damascus wasn't too far away from the center of where most Antiochian Orthodox Christians lived. In other words, the only thing that moved was the city where the patriarchate resides.

But in the case of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, the move will be necessary because its inhabitants will no longer exist in Turkey. Many of the bishops who reside in Turkey today have empty dioceses. They can move the patriarchate to another location but how could the new hierarchs consider themselves to still be the ancient see when all the original dioceses in Turkey would no longer exist?
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« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2009, 12:45:48 AM »

Today, the Patriarch of Antioch has 700,000 to one million of his flock still residing in Syria alone. The Metropolitans in Syria and Lebanon still all have flocks under their care who were the flock of the patriarchate. And, at the time, Damascus wasn't too far away from the center of where most Antiochian Orthodox Christians lived. In other words, the only thing that moved was the city where the patriarchate resides.

But in the case of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, the move will be necessary because its inhabitants will no longer exist in Turkey. Many of the bishops who reside in Turkey today have empty dioceses. They can move the patriarchate to another location but how could the new hierarchs consider themselves to still be the ancient see when all the original dioceses in Turkey would no longer exist?

Greeks are building second homes in Turkey.

Can you stop picking on the Ecumenical Patriarchate and allow the Holy Spirit to determine whether or not the Ecumenical Patriarchate (and the other leaders of the planet's Autocephalous Orthodox Churches) contines to uphold the Spirit of Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2009, 12:51:15 AM »

The biggest questions will be who decides who will be nominated to the EP which can no longer reside in Istanbul?
Why is that such a big question?
When the Patriarch of Antioch left Antioch, who decided who will be nominated? Wasn't it the Synod? And did your Patriarch's title change to "The Patriarch Of Damascus" when he moved? What has this to do with anything?

Today, the Patriarch of Antioch has 700,000 to one million of his flock still residing in Syria alone. The Metropolitans in Syria and Lebanon still all have flocks under their care who were the flock of the patriarchate. And, at the time, Damascus wasn't too far away from the center of where most Antiochian Orthodox Christians lived. In other words, the only thing that moved was the city where the patriarchate resides.

But in the case of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, the move will be necessary because its inhabitants will no longer exist in Turkey. Many of the bishops who reside in Turkey today have empty dioceses. They can move the patriarchate to another location but how could the new hierarchs consider themselves to still be the ancient see when all the original dioceses in Turkey would no longer exist?


Yeah Tamara, along that line of thinking let's just give up the sacred treasures that exist in Turkey that belong to the church.  Move the patriarchate and those invaluable treasures and documents that are left of the church would be moved into museums and gone.  It's not as simple as that. 

Last I checked Christ said where two or three are gathered I'll be there so numbers and statistics don't impress me. 

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« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2009, 12:58:42 AM »

I used to wish that the Ecumenical Patriarchate to move to Washington, DC with St. Sophia as the Patriarchal Cathedral....

After I learned some geopolitics, I changed my mind.  Just as the Disciples of Christ scattered and betrayed Him, they were reunited at Christ's Resurrection.

The Head of the Church is Christ.  We worship Christ.  We don't worship Met. Philip, Met. Jonah, Pat. Ignatius IV or Pat. Bartholomew.  They are fallen men just as we are.

If one Church upsets me; I dust my shoes off and find another Church which won't upset me.  It is that simple....
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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2009, 01:23:14 AM »

Why would a Patriarchate having to move location automatically mean that it's Exarchates, Metropolitanates etc. would necessarily become autocephalous?
Did this happen when the Patriarchate of Antioch moved to Damascus?
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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2009, 02:23:09 AM »

The title of this thread made me think of "When Animals Attack."

This weekend on the Discovery Channel: "When Patriarchates Have to Move."
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« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2009, 06:51:02 AM »

Why would a Patriarchate having to move location automatically mean that it's Exarchates, Metropolitanates etc. would necessarily become autocephalous?
Did this happen when the Patriarchate of Antioch moved to Damascus?

Different issue, at least in present circumstances.

In Antioch, Antioch herself had lost her importance as a city, after a couple earthquakes, sackings, etc.  It's quite provincial now. But when I went there ('92) it had a rather large Orthodox population with children in it.  I don't think I ever saw an Orthodox child in Constantinople.  None of the Holy Synod of Antioch is titular: I believe I've been to all the sees, and visited their Churches, i.e. people worshipping, not just an locked up building.  Is anyone on the Holy Synod of Constantinople, from an Antatiolian see (besides Smyrna) NOT titular?  I think I've been to all these sees, and I remember only ruined Churches.

The problem is, the EP has no where to go.  The Pat. of Antioch went from one living see to another living see in his Patriarchate.  How much life is in the Anatolian body?  There are places, it would seem: out Theophilos78 (number correct?) converted in the South East, but was baptized by an Arab priest.  Does anyone know where the EP has actually living Churches in Anatolia?


There maybe an infusion coming: besides Muslim converts like Theophilos (are they common in the Turkish Republic?  They are frequent enough in Syria), there is an influx of Gagauzi from Moldova into the TR.  They are nearly all Orthodox.  But will they be integrated in the EP?  Will they succumb to Turkish nationalism, and become nominal Muslims?  I don't know their legal status as immigrants, are they eligible for election and would the Greeks accept a Gagauzi EP?  Then there are the Russians.

Btw, anyone know what happened to the schismatic Turkish Orthodox?

The problem is those requirements of Turkish citizenship.  While the citizenship test would solve Jerusalem, causes no problem in Antioch, and hasn't been a problem in Alexandria, in Constantinople it is deadly.  So the EP has millions outside of the TR.  If they cannot provide candidates for the see, what difference does it make?  Does anyone know, how many monks are in the TR?

So back to your question, when there is no head, what do the Metropolitans, etc. do?

I was next going to post on the Autocephay thread about the flight of the Jerusalem Church, but maybe I'll do it here.
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« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2009, 09:09:37 AM »

Just out of interest. Does the Turkish government require the Armenian Patriarch of Constantinople to be a Turkish citizen?
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« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2009, 10:16:17 AM »

The problem is, the EP has no where to go....<snip>.... Does anyone know where the EP has actually living Churches in Anatolia?

The Ecumenical Patriarch's See includes Mount Athos, most of the Greek Islands and Central and Northern Greece. His See is not just what is now Turkey. He has oodles of places to go, and Mount Athos would be ideal.
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« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2009, 10:25:59 AM »

The problem is, the EP has no where to go....<snip>.... Does anyone know where the EP has actually living Churches in Anatolia?

The Ecumenical Patriarch's See includes Mount Athos, most of the Greek Islands and Central and Northern Greece. His See is not just what is now Turkey. He has oodles of places to go, and Mount Athos would be ideal.

Well, except that his guests from the Vatican might be stoned.   Shocked
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« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2009, 10:38:54 AM »

The problem is, the EP has no where to go....<snip>.... Does anyone know where the EP has actually living Churches in Anatolia?

The Ecumenical Patriarch's See includes Mount Athos, most of the Greek Islands and Central and Northern Greece. His See is not just what is now Turkey. He has oodles of places to go, and Mount Athos would be ideal.

LOL.  Yeah, the Church of the Pedalion.

I hesitated to put this in my original OP, but figured this would come up.

Yes, as far as trying to maintain his status, Athos is perhaps the only place he could go.  Besides the problem that none of his female flock could come as they can at the Phanar, there's the other problem that he won't be the dog wagging that tail. Fr. Ambrose brings up other problems with his guest list.  It would give the Old Calendarists the upper hand.  Wonder how the CoG would feel about that.

As for the Greek options, that would just further move the other Churches to write the EP off as the Greek (or Hellenic) ethnarch, and act accordingly.  Not to mention exaserbating his main patron, the CoG.  Again, his status wouldn't survive the move.

And then the problem that if he leaves Constantinople, it will become Istanbul, and there will be nothing left to come back to.
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« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2009, 02:25:11 PM »

The problem is, the EP has no where to go....<snip>.... Does anyone know where the EP has actually living Churches in Anatolia?

The Ecumenical Patriarch's See includes Mount Athos, most of the Greek Islands and Central and Northern Greece. His See is not just what is now Turkey. He has oodles of places to go, and Mount Athos would be ideal.

Well, except that his guests from the Vatican might be stoned.   Shocked
Monks advocating violence? Huh
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« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2009, 03:08:57 PM »

The problem is, the EP has no where to go....<snip>.... Does anyone know where the EP has actually living Churches in Anatolia?

The Ecumenical Patriarch's See includes Mount Athos, most of the Greek Islands and Central and Northern Greece. His See is not just what is now Turkey. He has oodles of places to go, and Mount Athos would be ideal.

Well, except that his guests from the Vatican might be stoned.   Shocked
Monks advocating violence? Huh

You've never seen monks in action if you find this strange. 

Why not just get rid of the State Church of Greece as a separate jurisdiction and move the Patriarchate to Athens? 
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« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2009, 04:07:08 PM »

The problem is, the EP has no where to go....<snip>.... Does anyone know where the EP has actually living Churches in Anatolia?

The Ecumenical Patriarch's See includes Mount Athos, most of the Greek Islands and Central and Northern Greece. His See is not just what is now Turkey. He has oodles of places to go, and Mount Athos would be ideal.

Well, except that his guests from the Vatican might be stoned.   Shocked
Monks advocating violence? Huh

You've never seen monks in action if you find this strange. 

Why not just get rid of the State Church of Greece as a separate jurisdiction and move the Patriarchate to Athens? 
Makes great sense. And a version of the original plan.
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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2009, 05:51:20 PM »

The tangent regarding alleged violence against the monks of the Esphigmenou Monastery split off and merged into the thread:  Esphigmenou Monastery - Should the Monks Have Left or Been Evicted?
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2009, 06:00:53 PM »

Just out of interest. Does the Turkish government require the Armenian Patriarch of Constantinople to be a Turkish citizen?

I'm not sure about this, but I think so.  I think I've heard that.
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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2009, 06:05:18 PM »

My solution is simple: Take over Constantinople.
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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2009, 06:09:30 PM »

My solution is simple: Take over Constantinople.

All in good time my friend....

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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2009, 09:07:08 PM »

I still have an issue with the Antiochian Patriarch being in Damascas,Syria whose government is one of the biggest supporters of terrorism in the Middle East.
Turkey is ,for the most part, an ally of the USA and is trying desperately to be let into the EU.

He has to be near his local flock. As my earlier post mentioned, there are still quite a few Orthodox Christians in Syria with active sees. The patriarch should be there regardless of the political situation. Besides that, did you notice where most of the persecuted Iraqi Christians fled to during the Iraqi war? Syria is one of the few countries in the middle east that is hospitable to Christians. Well, that is the case at least while the Assad dynasty rules.

As for Turkey, they may be an ally to the U.S. but they certainly have done everything possible to destroy Orthodox Christianity within its borders.
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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2009, 09:09:07 PM »

My solution is simple: Take over Constantinople.
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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2009, 10:49:49 PM »

They can move the patriarchate to another location but how could the new hierarchs consider themselves to still be the ancient see when all the original dioceses in Turkey would no longer exist?

 Huh Because that's how Orthodox polity works. The Holy Fathers already addressed a situation very much like this. After Muslim invasions caused the Orthodox faithful of the ancient Church of Cyprus to flee the island, the Penthekte Ecumenical Council decreed that the Cypriot Archbishop, although in exile, retained the same canonical rights and titles as before -- and his See the same place in the dyptics.
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« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2009, 11:08:27 PM »

They can move the patriarchate to another location but how could the new hierarchs consider themselves to still be the ancient see when all the original dioceses in Turkey would no longer exist?

 Huh Because that's how Orthodox polity works. The Holy Fathers already addressed a situation very much like this. After Muslim invasions caused the Orthodox faithful of the ancient Church of Cyprus to flee the island, the Penthekte Ecumenical Council decreed that the Cypriot Archbishop, although in exile, retained the same canonical rights and titles as before -- and his See the same place in the dyptics.

But no hierarchs or their flock would be fleeing in exile because they would all have passed on. The average age of those who are Orthodox Christians in Istanbul is 60 years old.
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« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2009, 11:31:35 PM »

They can move the patriarchate to another location but how could the new hierarchs consider themselves to still be the ancient see when all the original dioceses in Turkey would no longer exist?

 Huh Because that's how Orthodox polity works. The Holy Fathers already addressed a situation very much like this. After Muslim invasions caused the Orthodox faithful of the ancient Church of Cyprus to flee the island, the Penthekte Ecumenical Council decreed that the Cypriot Archbishop, although in exile, retained the same canonical rights and titles as before -- and his See the same place in the dyptics.

But no hierarchs or their flock would be fleeing in exile because they would all have passed on. The average age of those who are Orthodox Christians in Istanbul is 60 years old.

Not exactly true: many have already fleed, and many continue to flee; the population doesn't decrease because of death (because the birth-rate, from what I saw, is at the requisite level for population maintenance), but rather emigrations is what decimates the group (people move out because they can't put up with, say, the occasional arbitrary 100% tax on their business revenue, or the forfeiture of their ancestral home, etc.).  There are plenty of refugees, many of whom, coincidentally, live in Northern Greece (part of the canonical territory associated with the Ecumenical Patriarchate).  If the EP were to leave Turkey, but have people in Turkey to maintain the properties and fight for rights, then the move may be temporary (just as the departure of the Archbishop and people of Cyprus was).
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« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2009, 01:20:20 AM »

My solution is simple: Take over Constantinople.

Chuckle...we tried that already; didn't work.
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« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2009, 01:58:11 AM »

Just out of interest. Does the Turkish government require the Armenian Patriarch of Constantinople to be a Turkish citizen?

I'm not sure about this, but I think so.  I think I've heard that.

I was at church tonight and I saw my priest.  I asked him about the Patriarch and he confirmed that he has to be a Turkish citizen, born in Turkey.  He said there is a similar law in Iraq, which requires the archbishop of Iraq to be born there.
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« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2009, 05:21:57 AM »

I was at church tonight and I saw my priest.  I asked him about the Patriarch and he confirmed that he has to be a Turkish citizen, born in Turkey.  He said there is a similar law in Iraq, which requires the archbishop of Iraq to be born there.

Thanks!
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« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2009, 11:58:29 PM »

Political posts moved to politics...  Please don't post anything discussing politics--this includes talk of relations between national governments--on this public thread.  If you don't have access to the private Politics board, let Fr. Chris know so he can grant you the access you desire.  Thank you.
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« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2009, 12:19:57 PM »

I do not support the move of the Patriarchate either. There are millions of people who live in the three dioceses  that are assigned to it. While it is true that these millions are not Orthodox or Greek, it seems to me that the first task of the Patriarchate should be to convert all those Muslim Turks into the true faith. To emphasize the diaspora instead makes the Patriarchate operate out of ethnophyletismos. Rather ironic in its own way.
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« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2009, 01:22:00 PM »

I do not support the move of the Patriarchate either. There are millions of people who live in the three dioceses  that are assigned to it. While it is true that these millions are not Orthodox or Greek, it seems to me that the first task of the Patriarchate should be to convert all those Muslim Turks into the true faith. To emphasize the diaspora instead makes the Patriarchate operate out of ethnophyletismos. Rather ironic in its own way.

Exactly.
My sentiments in the past, and now.
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« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2009, 01:22:43 PM »

I do not support the move of the Patriarchate either. There are millions of people who live in the three dioceses  that are assigned to it. While it is true that these millions are not Orthodox or Greek, it seems to me that the first task of the Patriarchate should be to convert all those Muslim Turks into the true faith. To emphasize the diaspora instead makes the Patriarchate operate out of ethnophyletismos. Rather ironic in its own way.

yes, in particular given the recent claims by the EP's Chief Secretary:

Quote
Hellenism is identified with its ecumenical character and for that reason it can never be nationalistic for both of its manifestations, its culture and its Orthodox faith are concepts that transcend the boundaries of the national.

The Greek language helped spread Christianity; However, the ancient Greek (or by extension Byzantine) cultures have no business being perpetuated in a Christian context.  Let the dead bury their dead - which is what Christ said.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2009, 04:42:24 PM »

My solution is simple: Take over Constantinople.
Excellent... (spoken as Mr. Burns)
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You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
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