My take on ROAC

[The young fogey]

Based on what I know:

Valentin was once a monk in the Church of Russia who for some reason switched to the Russian Church Abroad (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, or ROCOR for short), which at the time (immediately post-Soviet) was setting up church vs. church (yet both are in the Orthodox communion!) in the mother country.

V. became the Church Abroad's bishop - in Russia.

But he broke with them.

And set up shop on his own - the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church, or ROAC, a church not recognized by anybody in the Orthodox communion. A Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Orthodoxy.

And - AFAIK this is public record so I can repeat it - he was convicted in Russia for sex offences involving young men. I don't know if that was appealed or overturned so I assume it still stands.

And more recently the ex-Orthodox metropolitan has been trolling the US picking up a few people from the Church Abroad.

I don't know the man personally but from his reputation he seems like some cunning Russian criminal operator in vestments. (Like a calculating cab driver who can set you up with anything you want - drugs, prostitutes, etc.)

The little group? Latter-day raskolniki. Like the Old Believers.

The loud online seem to gravitate towards this sect.

So, Joe Zollars, which ROAC church do you belong to? Attend? Visit? How do you find the services? To your liking?

(Not to pry into people's churchgoing, but since Mr Z online repeatedly, loudly has identified himself with this group recently, these are fair questions, if a bit blunt.)

[Seraphim Reeves]

Valentin was once a monk in the Church of Russia who for some reason switched to the Russian Church Abroad (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, or ROCOR for short), which at the time (immediately post-Soviet) was setting up church vs. church (yet both are in the Orthodox communion!) in the mother country.

- Metropolitan Valentin left the MP, after becoming fully aware of it's heterodoxy and when he was asked by his superiors to comprimise his confession by participating in ecumenical activities.  This caused him to reflect, and come to the realization that he could no longer remain in the MP's juristiction.

- The MP and ROCOR existing in one and the same "church" is a fantasy of recent origin in the ROCOR.  A lot of the confusion in ROCOR regarding it's relationship to the Serbs and Jerusalem, has to do with a profound lack of discipline in ROCOR in years past.  Because of it's close friendships with the Serbs, many had a sentemental attachment which ignored the events of 1965 (when the EP Athenagoras pretended to lift the anathemas of the Church from the Papacy), which caused ROCOR to separate itself from "world Orthodoxy" as such.  This is precisely why up until recently, public concelebrations with Serbian clergy were very controversial events when they did happen - precisely because the ROCOR was not in communion with them, nor the JP for that matter.

- The adamant insistance upon such "unbroken ties" with the JP and Serbian heirarchies, is of relatively recent import.  This much is evidenced by the 1983 Anathema of the ROCOR against the pan-heresy of ecumenism, which condemned not only ecumenists themselves, but those who maintained communion with them.  It is quite incredible then, to affirm beyond this point ('83) that the ROCOR would be in communion with the Serbian or Jerusalem Patriarchates, as both were either involved in ecumenical activities (as the Serbs certainly are to this day) or maintain uninterupted relations with other ecumenism mired bodies.  The above rationale is unavoidable, even when one takes for granted the modern insistance by the ROCOR that her anathema against ecumenism was only of "local importance" (applied only to the ROCOR itself) - since said anathema would forbid their relations with ecumenists.

- That ROCOR was establishing parishes in Russia proper, either indicates that it did not recognize the MP as a Church, OR is an incredible act of duplicity (to knowingly set up a rival heirarchy on another legit heirarchy's "turf".)  There are no other options than this.

V. became the Church Abroad's bishop - in Russia.

But he broke with them.

And set up shop on his own - the Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church, or ROAC, a church not recognized by anybody in the Orthodox communion. A Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Orthodoxy.

You're leaving alot out of here, and I cannot believe it is unintentional - you're not THIS ignorant.  Even if you stipulated you did not agree with the reasoning for said break, or even portrayed it in a negative light, your total omission of ROAC's rationale for existing is very telling.

- Metropolitan Valentin (along with most of his fellow heirarchs in Russia itself, please keep in mind - this was not a one man "operation" as such) and others broke with the ROCOR, because of radical changes in ROCOR's orientation and teaching in the mid 90's.

- The first ill signs, involved the ROCOR's establishment of relations with the Cyprianite TOC of Greece.  Said "Metropolitan" Cyprian was an excommunicate from the GOC of Greece (Greek Old Calendarists), who at one time held their doctrine regarding the heresy of ecumenism (and the consequences of said heresy - namely, heretics are not members of Christ, which is an apostolic affirmation), but in later times changed his mind, and had himself clandestinely "consecrated" to the episcopate.  He began to teach a different teaching on the subject, one which has been aptly characterized by it's opponents as the "holy heretic" teaching.  Namely, that "church" bodies which have officially taught, assimilated, and are in communion with heresy, can yet still somehow be recognized as genuine parts of the Church of Christ.  This teaching, is actually a form of ecumenism's branch-theorism, and is actually explicitely condemned by ROCOR's own anathema against ecumenism.  Hence, at least for someone fully accepting the ROCOR's legitimacy and stand up to that time, the union with the Cyprianites was inadmissable.
As bad as the union with the Cyprianite's themselves, was ROCOR's official statement from then Metropolitan Vitaly, that the Cyprianite's ecclessiology was synonymous with that of the ROCOR - a manifestly false statement, though definately true of the ROCOR's leadership from thereon in.

- Along with this, has been the steadily building momentum in the ROCOR's recent leadership, towards union with the MP - despite it's continued problems due to it's Soviet past, and the fact that it is definately in communion with heresy, and heavily involved in the ecumenical movement.    This has yet to be consumated, but it's well known that there is now a dominating, powerful faction in ROCOR pushing for this.

-  Only in a neo-papist ecclessiology (and all of the legal postivism that goes along with said ecclessiology, with it's dictatorial "truth of the moment") would the above information (ROCOR's new orientation, self anathematization) be deemed "irrelevent" to ROAC's necessary existance as a body that has broken ties with the ROCOR heirarchy.  Judases who kiss off the dogmas and holy canons of the Orthodox Church, are not themselves "Orthodox" in anything but name - hence I fail to see how ROAC's refusal to have anything to do with heretics can make it an "Orthoxy outside of Orthodoxy" (a bizarre statement if there ever was one!).

And - AFAIK this is public record so I can repeat it - he was convicted in Russia for sex offences involving young men. I don't know if that was appealed or overturned so I assume it still stands.

There are several things that need to be said of this scandal.

- The charges themselves were false, being instigated by those inside the MP, who have actively persecuted ROAC chapels, clergy, and parishoners in Russian proper.  The MP, being a Soviet institution, thinks nothing of using Soviet tactics, including nationalist thugs and criminals to assault the ROAC.  In fact, Metropolitan Valentin has been told, very explicitly, that the charges would have "disappeared" if he had simply returned to the care of the MP.  Given the documented arsons and vandalizations (which are shocking and disgusting in their details) which go on up until this day in Russia itself, and what we know of the MP's manner of operation abroad (ROCOR itself should know of this very well!  The forgetfulness of it's current leadership is very telling), this is not hard to believe at all.

-  While this will probably not matter to many who claim to be "canonical Orthodox" (yet who ignore the Canons, oddly enough), the entire manner of Metropolitan Valentin's accusation, including WHO was making the accusations, and their quality, do not at all meet the canonical requirements to so much as hold an ecclessiastical trial, let alone convict Vladyka Valentin in the sight of Holy Mother Church.  Hence, from an ecclessial standpoint, this is very much a non-issue.  However, it is worth saying that because of the way this is used to confused people, Metropolitan Valentin (who has always maintained his innocence) to this day is working to have his name cleared.

And more recently the ex-Orthodox metropolitan has been trolling the US picking up a few people from the Church Abroad.

Name?

So, Joe Zollars, which ROAC church do you belong to? Attend? Visit? How do you find the services? To your liking?

(Not to pry into people's churchgoing, but since Mr Z online repeatedly, loudly has identified himself with this group recently, these are fair questions, if a bit blunt.)

Given your past retiscence at answering any direct questions about your ecclessiastical affiliations, I find the above prying to be quite hypocritical on your part.

For what it's worth, by the grace of God, I am a catechumen with the ROAC.  Unfortunately, at the moment I am geographically far from a parish, though given the amount of interest and steady stream of petitions Vladyka Gregory of Denver is receiving from people to enter the ROAC (both those leaving fallen "Orthodox" churches, and even many who are leaving other forms of heresy - I've already spoken to several former-papists, like myself, who have approached the ROAC), it probably will not be too long before a local mission can be established.  These are the difficult realities of this age of apostacy.

Seraphim

[Hypo-Ortho]

Well said, Serge.  I am in complete agreement with you.

The sect that calls itself the ROAC, as I asked before, gets its Autonomy from which canonical, historic Apostolic Orthodox Church in the Orthodox Communion?  An autonomous Church in Orthodoxy must have the election of its Primate CONFIRMED by the Primate of the *Autocephalous* Orthodox Church which granted the Autonomous Church its Tomos of Autonomy.  It must be in communion with that Autocephalous Church. It  normally receives its Holy Chrism from the Autocephalous Church which is its Mother.  How does any of this refer to the ROAC?

Hypo-Ortho

[Seraphim Reeves]

Hypo,

The sect that calls itself the ROAC, as I asked before, gets its Autonomy from which canonical, historic Apostolic Orthodox Church in the Orthodox Communion?  An autonomous Church in Orthodoxy must have the election of its Primate CONFIRMED by the Primate of the *Autocephalous* Orthodox Church which granted the Autonomous Church its Tomos of Autonomy.  It must be in communion with that Autocephalous Church. It  normally receives its Holy Chrism from the Autocephalous Church which is its Mother.  How does any of this refer to the ROAC?

Did St.Athanasios receive Chrism from the Arian heirarchy?  Did he ask their permission before breaking with them?

Seraphim

[The young fogey]

No, I don't know why then-Bishop Valentin broke with the Church Abroad.

ISTM he is a classic vagante (an episcopus vagus) in the medieval sense, intruding in an established see, with no real jurisdiction of his own (at least none recognized by any Orthodox group), taking advantage of pious but ignorant Russians for profit.

Name?

He goes by his former monastic name by which he was known when he was an Orthodox bishop, Valentin.

Given your past reticence at answering any direct questions about your ecclessiastical affiliations, I find the above prying to be quite hypocritical on your part.

My churchgoing is irrelevant to my descriptions of Eastern Orthodoxy or other churches (such as ROAC) online. I don't volunteer that information; Joe Zollars, OTOH, has loudly identified himself with this group, so once again (sigh), my questions, while direct, are fair.

For what it's worth, by the grace of God, I am a catechumen with the ROAC.

That's nice. It's a free country. Just curious, though - not to pry, mind - does that mean soon you'll drop the banner for Nicholas' board from your sig, since, in your judgement, ROCOR is now wrong and possibly even outside the church?

Thanks, Hypo-Ortho.

[Νεκτάριος]

That's nice. It's a free country. Just curious, though - not to pry, mind - does that mean soon you'll drop the banner for Nicholas' board from your sig, since, in your judgement, ROCOR is now wrong and possibly even outside the church?

That's the best part about it Serge...they are actually branch theorists themselves claiming the true Church exists in the OC synods which are out of communion with eachother and have anathamatized eachother!!

[JoeZollars]

Serge,  since you asked, even though I maintain that is none of your business and none of the business of any others on this forum, I, like seraphim reeves, have by the grace of God become a Catechumen in ROAC.  

I find it interesting that those who so loudly protest against ROAC have no personal knowledge of ROAC.   I am increasingly finding this forum a waste of precious time.

Nik's forum has no formal ties to ROCOR or any other juris for htat matter.  In fact the ROCOR shut it down for using its name without permission.  AT that point it was changed.  It has never been, and this I have heard from Nik himself, a truly ROCOR forum at least not in the proper sense of the term.  

Nektarios, have you come to this conclusion from readign the official statements of the ROAC? if so you need to learn how to read the english language.  the ROAC has made no statements as to whether any other synod has had grace or not except for the MP, EP, JP and other world heterodox.  In fact, the ROAC is in communion with a number of other Old Calander synods including a Greek synod, various TOC's, and the Latvian Autonomous Church.  

If any reading this actually want to know what ROAC is all about, go to http://roacamerica.org and read for yourself.  There is also contact information for the Vicar of America, Vladyka Gregory.

Joe Zollars

[Anastasios]

Just a reminder to all forum participants:

it's = a contraction for "it is"
its = possessive form

Example:

"ROCOR changed its ecclesiology." = RIGHT
"ROCOR changed it's ecclesiology." = WRONG

"I like ROCOR; it's a nice church." = RIGHT
"I like ROCOR, its a nice church." = WRONG

anastasios

[Anastasios]

Joe,

ROAC itself maintains that some Greek Old Calendarists in the Lamnian Synod have grace.  This is impossible for an Orthodox Church to believe that another Orthodox Church not in communion with it has grace unless one is going to come out and say that there is actually communion between them but they are in administrative disunity, which they are not saying.  The Church can't be divided.

anastasios

[Keble]

Serge,  since you asked, even though I maintain that is none of your business and none of the business of any others on this forum, I, like seraphim reeves, have by the grace of God become a Catechumen in ROAC.  

I find it interesting that those who so loudly protest against ROAC have no personal knowledge of ROAC.   I am increasingly finding this forum a waste of precious time.

Joe, we can read their websites. Their public presentation screams "vagante!" They even have a line of apostolic succession (from 33 AD), the surest sign of a group of questionable legitimacy. Real apostolic churches don't have to spell out their lineage, even "bogus" ones like the Episcopal Church.

I see a sect started by a monk who switched jurisdictions and then split from that one. Their bishop in this country has switched jurisdictions three times. The priest in Staunton is obviously a convert, and the parish there seems to buy into the "Saxon Orthodoxy" nonsense. All of this is public knowledge. And it sets forth a tradition of its own, a tradition of jurisdictional controversy, escape from discipline, and obsession with personal purity. But we are all impure, until the end. We continue to sin. This sect is founded in declaring that everyone else is a worse sinner than they are. Ask yourself: how does that square with the gospels?

[Νεκτάριος]

if so you need to learn how to read the english language.

The website you seem to link to in every other post contains the information I first alluded to.  http://www.russianorthodoxautonomouschurchinamerica.com/kissofjudas/Kiss_schism.htm

The ROAC sees pretty much every other Old Calendar break off church as graceless schsimatics.  But ROAC's own reasoning and history are also it's enemies.  IF the lifting of the Anathemas in 1965 made the Ecumenical Patriachate graceless then it also made the Jerusalem and Serbian Patriarchates, who were in full communion with Constantinople, graceless.  Also anybody in communion with the SP or JP would be rendered graceless, such as the ROCOR.  Since our friend Mr. Valentine was ordained by ROCOR bishops in 1991 isn't he rather lacking in the grace department?

Also I have some questions for you Joe:

If a Church recieves converts (that are protestant or Latin) via Chrisimation are they heretical and thus devoid of grace? (And please I'd like to hear Joe's answer BEFORE anyone else comments on this...thanks)

[JoeZollars]

I am a simpleton and understand not all the answers to these or any other questions.  Teh way I view it, a person who is a part of a sect that has been heretical for the past 1,000 years (or more in the case of hte so called "oriental orthodox") cannot possibly Babtise just as a jew, hindu, mohamadean, buddhist, etc. can not.

keble, nektarios, Serge, Anastasios, etc.  have you ever actually spoken with a ROAC Clergy man?  I would assume from teh wild accusations you make in these posts that you have not.

Nektarios, how do you explain the fact that the ROAC is in communion with several Old Calander Synods, including the one of hte GOC's, several TOC's, and the Latvian Autonomous Church.  Actually what the synod has done is to wait to pass judgement on all but a few until such time as it can be properly determined one way or another the truth of a specific group.  However their are some that have been expressly condemned including the Kyprianite GOC (currently in communion iwth both ROCOR and the Milan Synod) which was condemned for believing the world "orthodox" to have grace, as well as ROCOR for going into communion with the Kyprianites, and other various assorted groups.  

Allow me, since this thread has been made by serge et al to be a personal attack of my plans to convert, to make this slightly more personal.  I do this because it says in the scriptures "...by their fruitys ye shall know them."  Prior to my having contacted the ROAC, I was in a state of sinful living in many regards, including a longstanding and heavy addiction to tobacco.  Through the prayers of hte good monks at Dormition skete and the help of my spiritual father, I have been able to overcome these issues in my life.  With the singular example of smoking, I had smoked very heavily from the time I was about 13 years old and had smoked off and on for a few years preceding that.  I had continued to smoke fairly heavily up until about 1 1/2 months ago when, as stated earlier, I was able to quite cold turkey and haven't even craved a puff since. If you ask me this is a miracle as I had tried to quite for a considerable period of time and nothing had worked, save the prayers of these Holy Monks.  This is not to say that I am no longer sinful, quite the contrary actually, but I have been able to overcome these damnable inclinations.  

Joe Zollars
Sinner

[Keble]

keble, nektarios, Serge, Anastasios, etc.  have you ever actually spoken with a ROAC Clergy man?  I would assume from teh wild accusations you make in these posts that you have not.

Joe, this would hardly seem to matter if what we're talking about are these overall considerations. If we're talking about legitimacy, an encounter with a cleric isn't going to matter much.

Allow me, since this thread has been made by serge et al to be a personal attack of my plans to convert, to make this slightly more personal.

Well, the burning question might very well be why you are converting to a group whose closest parish (as far as I can tell) is in Denver. That's a heckuva drive to church on Sunday. Maybe your interactions with this group are doing you some good. I can only hope so.

[JoeZollars]

Keble, the nearest Church is actually Holy Dormition of Mary Skete in Buena Vista CO (13 hours drive).  Why would I do such? because I would gladly walk such a distance if I could just once drink of the waters of Truth.  

Joe Zollars
sinner

[Keble]

Keble, the nearest Church is actually Holy Dormition of Mary Skete in Buena Vista CO (13 hours drive).  Why would I do such? because I would gladly walk such a distance if I could just once drink of the waters of Truth.  

All the conditional tenses in your statement are revealing.

[Keble]

While we're at it, Mr. Reeves, how is it that you are able to be a catechumen when the closest parish to you appears to be in New Jersey? Unless you've e/immigrated of late, this would entail crossing the border for each liturgy.

It's hard for me to imagine that any truly traditional Orthodox would suggest that a correspondence course is the way to be a member of the Church.

[ania]

Joe Z., they might not have met any ROAC clergymen, but I have, before & after the split.  I met several now ROAC people when they were still in ROCOR in seminary at Jordanville.  I gotta tell ya,they were the wackiest people I've ever encountered... well, not the wackiest, but close.  Also, an ex-boyfriend of my sister's switched to ROAC, God only knows why or how, as he was very close to Bsp. Anthony of San Fran, and was over-all a rather smart lad.  Now, he's as wacky as the rest of them.  As for "bishop" Anthony, he's got such a long trail of extremely wacky & suspiscious stuff, that I would never consider anything he says spiritually helpful.  Anyway, time to work.
Ania

[Justinianus]

I am disappointed at all the attacks going on here from all sides.  I pray that the Holy Spirit enters our hearts and guides us in a more fruitful way.  

I pray for the catechumens, the Orthodox, and the Protestants.  We are all sinners and despirately need the Light of Christ in our lives.  

May the Holy Spirit reveal the Truth of Jesus Christ to all our hearts continuously.

[Hypo-Ortho]

And as we pray daily, Justinianus, may God stop the schisms in the Churches!

I recall reading somewhere that of these two sins, i.e.,  heresy and schism, that many of the Holy Fathers considered schism to be the worst of the two.

Hypo-Ortho

[Seraphim Reeves]

Nektarios,

The ROAC sees pretty much every other Old Calendar break off church as graceless schsimatics.  But ROAC's own reasoning and history are also it's enemies.  IF the lifting of the Anathemas in 1965 made the Ecumenical Patriachate graceless then it also made the Jerusalem and Serbian Patriarchates, who were in full communion with Constantinople, graceless.  Also anybody in communion with the SP or JP would be rendered graceless, such as the ROCOR.  Since our friend Mr. Valentine was ordained by ROCOR bishops in 1991 isn't he rather lacking in the grace department?

This is one of the whopper revisionists lies that has practically become gospel now in the ROCOR - that an unbroken, communicating relationship has always existed between the ROCOR and the JP/Serbia since the blasphemy of Athenagoras-the-arch-heretic in 1965.

Evidence of as much can be found with the Serbs themselves, whose "patriarch" (Pavle) has said quite recently (when confronted by the MP about the activities of some of his clergy) that he didn't recognize the ROCOR, and even called them a "schism."  This was, of course, before the big flush of "union with the MP" talk began, but still quite recently.

The reality, is that prior to 1965, there was an especially close relationship with the Serbs, because of their hosting the ROCOR heirarhcs during part of their exile from Russia.  This friendship, sadly, impaired the judgement of many clergy (and even some Bishops apparently) who scandalously maintained close relations (and even occassionally concelebrated) with the Serbs.

The same sort of sentimentalism can also explain why the Serbs, in spite of their own church's official stand, were prone to such concelebrations.  Indeed, theirs is a very confused situation, since if you go beneath Pavle, you'll find conflicting answers regarding the Serbians' position regarding the ROCOR (we had this demonstrated on at the Cafe, when Justin e-mailed a Serb bishop about the ROCOR.)

This is precisely why some of the earlier "high profile" acts of concelebration with the Serbs were met with so much resistance and caused quite a scandal within the ROCOR itself.

The situation with the JP is similar, largely because of ROCOR's official presence in the Holy Land (which very recently was viciously attacked by the same MP they're not cozying up to, in the MP's typical, charming Soviet fashion.)

The current problems overwhelming the ROCOR right now, are in large part due to these sorts of pastoral oversights - it's a long standing problem of discipline within the Synod, which has finally altered the consciousness of the majority.

Also anybody in communion with the SP or JP would be rendered graceless, such as the ROCOR.  Since our friend Mr. Valentine was ordained by ROCOR bishops in 1991 isn't he rather lacking in the grace department?

Given that it wasn't until a few years later that ROCOR began to officially espouse troubling views on these subjects (in particular their official adoption of Cyprianite branch-theorism).

Seraphim

[Seraphim Reeves]

Anastasios,

ROAC itself maintains that some Greek Old Calendarists in the Lamnian Synod have grace.  This is impossible for an Orthodox Church to believe that another Orthodox Church not in communion with it has grace unless one is going to come out and say that there is actually communion between them but they are in administrative disunity, which they are not saying.  The Church can't be divided.

Putting aside the issue of these things being a process (and no one can be faulted for finding each other in the mess created by the heretics), I find the above very strange, at least coming from you.

"The Church can't be divided" - but I thought you believed the papists have grace-bearing mysteries?

Seraphim

[Seraphim Reeves]

While we're at it, Mr. Reeves, how is it that you are able to be a catechumen when the closest parish to you appears to be in New Jersey? Unless you've e/immigrated of late, this would entail crossing the border for each liturgy.

It's hard for me to imagine that any truly traditional Orthodox would suggest that a correspondence course is the way to be a member of the Church.

The situation is certainly not ideal, but the choice is to be a child of Truth in semi-isolation, or be a worldling, or comprimise and join some heretical body which I know full well is anathema.  In such a situation, there is no valid choice but the one I have made.

Seraphim

[Keble]

While we're at it, Mr. Reeves, how is it that you are able to be a catechumen when the closest parish to you appears to be in New Jersey? Unless you've e/immigrated of late, this would entail crossing the border for each liturgy.

It's hard for me to imagine that any truly traditional Orthodox would suggest that a correspondence course is the way to be a member of the Church.

The situation is certainly not ideal, but the choice is to be a child of Truth in semi-isolation, or be a worldling, or comprimise and join some heretical body which I know full well is anathema.  In such a situation, there is no valid choice but the one I have made.

Sure there is. You can move. You can prevail upon them to send a missionary priest.

The fact that they are willing to let you take up this kind of position with them should be an alarm bell that they have lost a crucial part of their apostolic heritage.

[Seraphim Reeves]

Serge,

No, I don't know why then-Bishop Valentin broke with the Church Abroad.

ISTM he is a classic vagante (an episcopus vagus) in the medieval sense, intruding in an established see, with no real jurisdiction of his own (at least none recognized by any Orthodox group), taking advantage of pious but ignorant Russians for profit.

Evidence?  I at least try to substantiate why the pseudo-Orthodox heirarchs most people here are joined to are either heretics, or wedded to heretics - the same from the "other-side" (even if only in their strikingly a-doctrinal, typically ad-hominem line of attack) would be appreciated.

My churchgoing is irrelevant to my descriptions of Eastern Orthodoxy or other churches (such as ROAC) online. I don't volunteer that information; Joe Zollars, OTOH, has loudly identified himself with this group, so once again (sigh), my questions, while direct, are fair.

This is just facetious on your part.  Why not just say outright you're trying to solicit information you yourself would never provide if similarly asked?

That's nice. It's a free country. Just curious, though - not to pry, mind - does that mean soon you'll drop the banner for Nicholas' board from your sig, since, in your judgement, ROCOR is now wrong and possibly even outside the church?

I don't recall the Euprhosnyos Cafe claiming to be a "ROCOR site".  There are plenty of people on there, anything from new-calendarists, to ROCOR folks, to ROAC and Old Calendarists.  I will say though, it is by far the most "traditionalist" friendly forum (and certainly imho, the most "friendly traditionalist" forum) of it's kind.  Hence, why I recommend it to people, and why I have the banner.

Seraphim

P.S. - your thoughts regarding why my ecclessiological rationale for ROAC's existance, and the various issues I've raised in this forum regarding the heresy of ecumenism, would be appreciated; I'd like to be shown by someone here just why I am erring.  Lots of mud slinging so far, but precious little in the way of dogmatic considerations (save, by myself.)

[JoeZollars]

Keble,

For some moving is not an option.  keep in mind we are not just dealing with moving from one state to another, but from one Country to another which brings up a whole slew of issues.  Also Seraphim has an obligation to the support of his wife, and therefore the loss of a job (which in these troubling times would be almost impossible to replace) could prove damaging.  

As for sending a missionary Priest, there are only so many Priests to go around.  One solitary catechumen does not a mission make.

Joe Zollars

[Anastasios]

Seraphim,

ECafe was ROCORcafe for a long time.  Most of us still remember it as such, especially when it used to say, "attacks on ROCOR or the Churches in communion with it are not allowed."  You're right it's not that way now, but we still remember a time when it was.

anastasios

[Seraphim Reeves]

Sure there is. You can move. You can prevail upon them to send a missionary priest.

Actually, a move (when the resources become available) is not entirely out of the question.  As it stands now, my wife is trying to get citizenship here; that's strain enough, getting citizenship (and work to meet my familial responsibilities) in the U.S. would be, humanly speaking, impossible right now.  However, I do not put anything past God's providence.

As for missionary Priest - if there was some way, I'm sure there would be one here now.  I'm willing to give it time, ignoring your typically contrarian response.

The fact that they are willing to let you take up this kind of position with them should be an alarm bell that they have lost a crucial part of their apostolic heritage.

Anglican Manifestation of the "Apostolic Heritage"



I suppose I should go running to this...

Seraphim

[TomS]

I suppose I should go running to this...

Seraphim

HaHaHA  

Oooh! Burn!

He gotcha there, Keble!  

[Keble]

Joe, you're making excuses. If it's really this critical, not a single one of these consideration outweighs moving.

[Keble]

Hey, at least she hasn't been defrocked and isn't running away from some other jurisdiction!

And anyway, she isn't my bishop!

[Keble]

I've changed my mind-- this calls for a bit of hardball.

The fact that they are willing to let you take up this kind of position with them should be an alarm bell that they have lost a crucial part of their apostolic heritage.

Anglican Manifestation of the "Apostolic Heritage"



I suppose I should go running to this...

Well, I'm not going to make any attempt whatsoever to defend Spong; I excommunicated him a decade ago at least.

And as for the Rt. Rev. Catherine Waynick: she's irrelevant here. There's no era in which an Anglican church would support what you're planning to do. The Episcopal Church even has a bishop for the Armed Forces chaplaincies, and other chaplaincies are under ordinary bishops.

To be blunt:you're trying to evade the point. Loose canon bishops and female clergy aren't going to distract from the historical reality that the apostolic standard for Christian life is within a community in which there is weekly worship, preferably Eucharistic worship. The notion of a sort of instant anchorite life is not something for a catechumen to be diving into. That is the actual tradition; accept no schismatic substitutes.

[JoeZollars]

Keble, you have a good point.  however the best must be made out of the situation.  If there are no Churches in his vicinity, he must do what he is able.  

As for making excuses, it is the duty of the Christian man to care for his family.  have you ever stopped to think that perhaps Seraphim has some inpedimetn to moving closer to a ROAC church?  

Joe Zollars

[JoeZollars]

Sure there is. You can move. You can prevail upon them to send a missionary priest.

Actually, a move (when the resources become available) is not entirely out of the question.  As it stands now, my wife is trying to get citizenship here; that's strain enough, getting citizenship (and work to meet my familial responsibilities) in the U.S. would be, humanly speaking, impossible right now.  However, I do not put anything past God's providence.

As for missionary Priest - if there was some way, I'm sure there would be one here now.  I'm willing to give it time, ignoring your typically contrarian response.

The fact that they are willing to let you take up this kind of position with them should be an alarm bell that they have lost a crucial part of their apostolic heritage.

Anglican Manifestation of the "Apostolic Heritage"



I suppose I should go running to this...

Seraphim

Tushe!

and these heretics call ROAC vagante?  right......

Joe Zollars

[Keble]

and these heretics call ROAC vagante?  right......

Serge is an Anglican? Since when?

You can complain all you want about Cate Waynick's gender, but one thing she is not is vagante. The diocese over which she has been placed is duly consituted within the Episcopal Church, and her election and consecration were according to the church's constitution and canons.

You can snipe at me all you want, Joe, but it isn't going to change the fact that the relationship you are trying to establish with ROAC is unOrthodox.

[JoeZollars]

It is ORthodox Keble and if you knew the first thing about ROAC you might get that.  

And whether or not she is in a "diocese" that is within the episcopalean "church" matters not a fig.  Heresy is the same no matter how large or pernicious the organization.  

so why do you call our Vladyka vagante? because he preaches the truth and this scares the heck out of you?  

Joe Zollars

[Keble]

It is ORthodox Keble and if you knew the first thing about ROAC you might get that.  

Joe, I can read the church fathers. I have been studying the Christian life for longer than you have been alive, and I read Orthodox as well as Anglican, Roman, and Protestant sources. What I can see about the Christian life in all these sources tells me that what you are attempting to do is wrong. And if ROAC is assenting to you doing that, it tells me that they are wrong too.

And whether or not she is in a "diocese" that is within the episcopalean "church" matters not a fig.  Heresy is the same no matter how large or pernicious the organization.  

All of which is utterly irrelevant.

so why do you call our Vladyka vagante? because he preaches the truth and this scares the heck out of you?  

He's not "your" Vladyka, Joe. You are no more Orthodox than I am.

And my wife has watched you flit from group to group over the past months. You've already (perhaps) rebelled against your parents in becoming Catholic, and I see no sign that you ever actually learned what being a Catholic entails. And what it entails-- what any church membership entails, and especially any apostolic church-- is buckling down under the direction of that church and working out your salvation from day to day. It's not about obsessing about organizational purity. Every other apostolic church will tell that, and I'll bet if you were in Staunton and attending the ROAC church there, that's what the priest would expect of you.

Instead, you've settled on a jurisdiction where the nearest priest is 13 hours away, so there's absolutely no chance of him seriously calling you to account, and no chance that you will have to deal with living in the parish community. That's not apostolic, and no real Orthodox bishop, nor any Catholic bishop, nor any Anglican bishop would approve of such an arrangement. IF ROAC is approving of such an arrangement, that's a much bigger error than ecumenism, and it's an error which is going to impede your spiritual life every minute of every hour of every day that you persist in it.

[carpo-rusyn]

Hello,

I'd be glad to help Joe or Seraphim find a nice RC parish nearby.  As far as what being a Catholic entails I could recommend some books.  

Come home to Rome.  It's always an option.

Carpo-Rusyn

[Anastasios]

CR,

Please no Catholic proselytism here on an Orthodox forum.

Thanks,

anastasios

[Hypo-Ortho]

CR,

Please no Catholic proselytism here on an Orthodox forum.

Thanks,

anastasios

Thanks, anastasios.  I was taken aback somewhat by carpatho-rusyn's gall and was about to ask carpie to refrain from doing the very same thing!

Hypo-Ortho

[carpo-rusyn]

Sorry my Orthodox brothers.  Just trying to help someone in what looks like some spiritual pain and confusion.

CR

[JoeZollars]

carpo-rusyn, for myself I have no interest in going back to Heresy.  thank you.

Joe Zollars

[JoeZollars]

All of which is utterly irrelevant.

actually it matters a great deal.  It is very relevant to salvation that one be in a NON-HERETICAL Church, not a joy club.

He's not "your" Vladyka, Joe. You are no more Orthodox than I am.

I am on the path towards Orthodoxy and fully intend to be Babtized, God willing, as soon as possible.

And my wife has watched you flit from group to group over the past months. You've already (perhaps) rebelled against your parents in becoming Catholic, and I see no sign that you ever actually learned what being a Catholic entails. And what it entails-- what any church membership entails, and especially any apostolic church-- is buckling down under the direction of that church and working out your salvation from day to day. It's not about obsessing about organizational purity. Every other apostolic church will tell that, and I'll bet if you were in Staunton and attending the ROAC church there, that's what the priest would expect of you.

who is your wife and what does she have to do with this.  How has she had such a deep spiritual insight into my soul pray tell.

Instead, you've settled on a jurisdiction where the nearest priest is 13 hours away, so there's absolutely no chance of him seriously calling you to account, and no chance that you will have to deal with living in the parish community. That's not apostolic, and no real Orthodox bishop, nor any Catholic bishop, nor any Anglican bishop would approve of such an arrangement. IF ROAC is approving of such an arrangement, that's a much bigger error than ecumenism, and it's an error which is going to impede your spiritual life every minute of every hour of every day that you persist in it.

actually I am intending to move to a location near a roac parish at the earliest possible time.  A stated earlier, in regards to the great distance betwen me and the nearest parish, I would happily wallk such a distance if I could but once drink of the Waters of Truth.

Joe Zollars

[Jennifer]

I'm late to this soap opera so let me see if I've followed the plot.  Joe was Protestant (evangelical?) then he was Catholic then he was traditionalist Catholic then he was just regular Catholic then he was traditionalist again then he was ROCOR because the Catholics were big heretics then he was traditionalist Catholic again because the just regular Catholics were big heretics now he's ROAC because anyone's big heretics.  And you're only 20?  Phew...

Did I get all of the plot twists and turns correctly?  

[Keble]

All of which is utterly irrelevant.

actually it matters a great deal.  It is very relevant to salvation that one be in a NON-HERETICAL Church, not a joy club.

And what makes you think that ROAC isn't a "joy club"? What makes you think that it isn't simply about refusing to submit to canonical discipline, and church shopping, and feeling superior to the rest of Orthodoxy?

He's not "your" Vladyka, Joe. You are no more Orthodox than I am.

I am on the path towards Orthodoxy and fully intend to be Babtized, God willing, as soon as possible.

But you aren't there yet, and therefore your claim to authority is premature. (And that goes double for you, Seraphim Reeves.)

And my wife has watched you flit from group to group over the past months. You've already (perhaps) rebelled against your parents in becoming Catholic, and I see no sign that you ever actually learned what being a Catholic entails. And what it entails-- what any church membership entails, and especially any apostolic church-- is buckling down under the direction of that church and working out your salvation from day to day. It's not about obsessing about organizational purity. Every other apostolic church will tell that, and I'll bet if you were in Staunton and attending the ROAC church there, that's what the priest would expect of you.

who is your wife and what does she have to do with this.  How has she had such a deep spiritual insight into my soul pray tell.

The only authority I need from her is as an observer of your behavior. You've been here, you've been in Nick's forum, and if I remember correctly you've been over in some of the Catholic forums. Every few months it seems as though you're going to give yourself over to another jurisdiction. What does that say about your real commitment to this one? It suggests to me that you are no more likely to submit yourself to the direction of a ROAC priest than you are to any other so far, and that distance on your part and loopiness on theirs is just going to make the problem worse.

You get baptized, and then you come back to the same room as before. And what you get to do then is do matins on Sunday, by yourself, and read spiritual books and believe yourself to be becoming deeply spiritual because of it. But you have no real Orthodox community, and pretty soon you're back on the forums again, listening to every crank and wise person who comes along (but more of the former than the latter, because the wise tend to throw in the towel after a while). You sign up for the Indiana list, or maybe you start reading the newsgroup and develop an obsession with Balkan politics. Maybe someone splits off from ROCOR because of the upcoming union and you decide that they are the True Orthodox, and you start the process again.

Nobody in this forum (except Edwin and Ebor) thinks that I am part of a legitimate church. So if I am threatened by ROAC, I am every bit as threatened by their churches. But you don't see me warning them all of spiritual dangers, and I haven't said anything to Linus in a while (for reasons which I do not think it is polite to say here-- not that they're nasty, but rather things that I don't want to say in public). I don't even complain (all that much) about the various ROCOR guys (though every time the Orthodox Saxon nonsense pops up, I'll have my shotgun at the ready). It's just you and Seraphim, and it's because both of you are preparing to do something that is spiritually extremely foolish. The fact that ROAC clergy are not only willing but encouraging you to go through with it shows that there is something deeply and fundamentally wrong there.

Instead, you've settled on a jurisdiction where the nearest priest is 13 hours away, so there's absolutely no chance of him seriously calling you to account, and no chance that you will have to deal with living in the parish community. That's not apostolic, and no real Orthodox bishop, nor any Catholic bishop, nor any Anglican bishop would approve of such an arrangement. IF ROAC is approving of such an arrangement, that's a much bigger error than ecumenism, and it's an error which is going to impede your spiritual life every minute of every hour of every day that you persist in it.

actually I am intending to move to a location near a roac parish at the earliest possible time.  A stated earlier, in regards to the great distance betwen me and the nearest parish, I would happily wallk such a distance if I could but once drink of the Waters of Truth.

Joe, I just don't believe it. Let's say you get baptized, and you get an apartment in or near Staunton (and never mind whether you can get a decent job there), and now you're far away from home and there's nothing to do on a Saturday night except sin or wander the internet or go to vespers, and after a year of this you find that the excitement is gone, and you wonder where it went, and you decide that gee, maybe this isn't the True Church (tm) after all. So then you go on another fishing expedition looking for another group. Except it isn't in Staunton, so you engage on another correspondence course. And each time you pick up more "knowledge", and each time your spirituality gets weirder because you have to reject everything you rejected before AND the place where you are now. And if you still aren't married, who knows? you might end up at some crackpot monastery in the desert. But the one thing that you won't ever do is just go to some ordinary church and dedicate yourself to the ordinary business of being a Christian.

Catechumens should be worrying about really important stuff, like "how do I pray?" and "what am I doing in Church?" and "how do I see Christ in my neighbor?", instead of fretting over obscure jurisdictional matters. I'm betting, Joe, that what they do of a Sunday morning in Staunton isn't all that different from what they do in Johnstown, or DC, or Linthicum, or for that matter, a mile from my house. They may do it a bit better because the priest is a convert, but then again the production values are better at any of the local cathedrals. Possibly the spiritual advice is much the same too, though Fr. Gregory at Holy Cross or Fr. Constantine at St. Nick's aren't likely to fall into the legalism that I see sometimes in "conservative" advice.

You are still young. If anyone is in a position to walk to Buena Vista, it is you. Or you could take a bus. The thing is, you talk about doing it, but you don't do it. That suggests to me that this walk is nothing but a romantic fantasy, and that your ties to ROAC are but an infatuation.

[Anastasios]

Sorry my Orthodox brothers.  Just trying to help someone in what looks like some spiritual pain and confusion.

CR

I know you meant well. It's just that we have to be consistent in that we have had heavy proselytism here before and we had to crack down.

anastasios

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