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Author Topic: Oriental Orthodox Ecclesiastical titles, terms, positions, etc.  (Read 10704 times) Average Rating: 5
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serb1389
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« on: March 19, 2009, 09:26:33 PM »

I was recently reading a the thread announcing a metropolitan's appointment over UK, Europe and Africa (OO).  In that post paul2004 very lovingly posted:
Quote
H.H. Catholicos of the East appoints H.G. Dr. Mathews Mar Thimothios Metropolitan as the Metropolitan of the Diocese of UK, Europe and Africa.

Circular of His Holiness Moran Mor Baselius Mar Thoma Didymus I, Catholicos of the East 
PDF File:
http://mosc.in/images/stories/File/Kalpana%20to%20Europe%20146.pdf

New bishops:
http://www.icon.org.in/php/BishopConsecration2009.php

Interview with H.G. Dr. Mathews Mar Thimotheos:
http://www.icon.org.in/php/HGMathewsMarThemothios.php


Sincerely
Paul

Looking at all of these names I have begun to notice some general tendencies.  Whenever people on the forum refer to OO bishops, priests, etc.  they put all of their titles in the name and they do it in a certain order. 

Is there a system to this?  Or is it a random coincidence?  Or am I just completely wrong here. 

Also, can anyone explain to me how all of these titles work? 

What does Mar mean and how does it work?  What does H.G. mean and how does it work. 

Why do a lot of bishops, priests, etc. have two names like Thoma Dydimus I, etc.  Is it like John Paul II or something?  How does that work?  In the EO a bishop has to pick the name of a saint and that becomes their name.  Why the double names?  Sorry i'm just confused about the whole thing. 

Also if anyone can give me a list of how the ranks work. We already discussed this with the deaconate thread and some great resources were provided there.  Now i'm trying to figure out how the bishops work (and priests if someone has time, but my primary question is bishops)

What is a "catholicos" of the east? 

This person who was appointed, was he a metropolitan before, or was he elevated.  It seems from the titles that he was a metropolitan before, but it was very confusing.  I guess this goes back to my question about title order. 

Any info on this would be awesome.  thanks in advance! 

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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2009, 09:32:29 PM »

I cannot answer much, but I believe Mar/Mor means "my Lord" and H.G. is His Grace.

Like I said, not much help  Tongue, but I too would be interested in the answers to the other questions.
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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2009, 09:37:09 PM »

I cannot answer much, but I believe Mar/Mor means "my Lord" and H.G. is His Grace.

Like I said, not much help  Tongue, but I too would be interested in the answers to the other questions.

I figured H.G was His grace, but it might not be that obvious.  I also wanted to know what the relationship is b/w "H.G" and a metropolitan, or a "catholicos" or a "patriarch" or etc. 

I also have read the life of Symeon Stylites (syriac version - translation in english) and it refers to St. Symeon as "mar symeon" so I figure it's saying Saint Symeon, but It could just be Father Symeon as well. Hence my confusion (on top of just not knowing)
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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2009, 09:55:12 PM »

I was recently reading a the thread announcing a metropolitan's appointment over UK, Europe and Africa (OO).  In that post paul2004 very lovingly posted:
Quote
H.H. Catholicos of the East appoints H.G. Dr. Mathews Mar Thimothios Metropolitan as the Metropolitan of the Diocese of UK, Europe and Africa.

Circular of His Holiness Moran Mor Baselius Mar Thoma Didymus I, Catholicos of the East 
PDF File:
http://mosc.in/images/stories/File/Kalpana%20to%20Europe%20146.pdf

New bishops:
http://www.icon.org.in/php/BishopConsecration2009.php

Interview with H.G. Dr. Mathews Mar Thimotheos:
http://www.icon.org.in/php/HGMathewsMarThemothios.php


Sincerely
Paul

Looking at all of these names I have begun to notice some general tendencies.  Whenever people on the forum refer to OO bishops, priests, etc.  they put all of their titles in the name and they do it in a certain order. 

Is there a system to this?  Or is it a random coincidence?  Or am I just completely wrong here. 

Also, can anyone explain to me how all of these titles work? 

What does Mar mean and how does it work?  What does H.G. mean and how does it work.

Mar/Mor (the first is Eastern/second Western pronunciation) means "Lord."  Like in the NT "Marantha" Our Lord Come! It is also used for "St." It's Aramaic.

Quote
Why do a lot of bishops, priests, etc. have two names like Thoma Dydimus I, etc.  Is it like John Paul II or something?  How does that work?  In the EO a bishop has to pick the name of a saint and that becomes their name.  Why the double names?  Sorry i'm just confused about the whole thing. 

Thoma is Aramaic, Dydimos Greek for Twin. John 11:16; 20:24; and 21:2.  It is not a name at all: Syriac tradition says his name was Judas.  He is the Apostolic Founder of the Church in India, but also evangelized a lot of the East.  Some of this may be seen in "Jude and the Relatives of Jesus in the Early Church"
http://books.google.com/books?id=c8h3HWPO8QYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=jude+and+the+relatives+of+jesus#PPA34,M1

Quote
Also if anyone can give me a list of how the ranks work. We already discussed this with the deaconate thread and some great resources were provided there.  Now i'm trying to figure out how the bishops work (and priests if someone has time, but my primary question is bishops)

What is a "catholicos" of the east?
 

Catholicos is the equivalent of Patriarch in the West (ironic, but to these traditions, we EO are the West).  Armenia and hence Georgia have Catholicoi.

The C of the East is the Title of the Assyrian Patriarch (who resides in Chicago), like the title of the Patriarch of Antioch "and All the East."

Quote
This person who was appointed, was he a metropolitan before, or was he elevated.  It seems from the titles that he was a metropolitan before, but it was very confusing.  I guess this goes back to my question about title order. 

Any info on this would be awesome.  thanks in advance! 


I'm not as sure on the other questions.  sorry.
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« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2009, 10:53:01 PM »

I am not at all an expert on this.  All I can tell you is that the answers will vary among the various OO Churches.  We have been so separated geographically over the centuries, that we have developed a lot of diversity in our practices.

For example, in the Armenian Church, I never hear of metropolitans.  We have bishops, archbishops, patriarchs (of Jerusalem and Constantinople) and Catholicoi (of Etchmiadzin and Cilicia,) but not metropolitans.  In fact, I'm not even sure what a metropolitan is, as opposed to a bishop.  In other OO Churches, however, I hear of metropolitans.

In the Armenian Church, a catholicos seems to have a higher rank than a patriarch.  At least that is my impression, (although I don't think the the catholicoi are in a position to tell the patriarchs what to do.)  I don't know how patriarchs and catholicoi rank in the other OO Churches.  And then of course in the Coptic Church, their spiritual leader is called a pope. 

The titles can be long, elaborate and sometimes rather confusing.   Smiley  The polite thing is to try to get it as close as you can.  To play it safe, you can't go wrong if you refer to catholicoi, patriarchs and popes as "His Holiness."  Actually, in the Armenian Church, I think we refer to the catholicoi as "His Holiness," and the two patriarchs of Jerusalem and Constantinople as "His Beatitude."
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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2009, 12:13:32 AM »

Serb,

I myself get confused by the way some of us in the Indian Church use jargon, but I will try and explain as much as possible.

I dont think there is any one unified OO system of using titles, I dont think there is an EO one either for that matter.

HG is His Grace, used in the Indian Church to address bishops (Episkopas) and Metropolitan Bishops (Metrapolita/Metrapolito).   We currently do not use the term Archbishop, but I guess the system implies that a Metrapolito is a Metropolitan Archbishop.  Like the Greeks, the current Indian system , seems to be moving towards making each diocese as a Metropolitanate. 
I believe among the Greeks, an Archbishop( that of Athens) outranks the Metropolitans( of the 66 odd dioceses) ; but in the Slavic tradition, a Metropolitan outranks Archbishops ( as in the OCA , in the Moscow Patriarchate and so on). The Copts also use the titles of Metropolitans (who outrank bishops) who themselves are outranked by the Pope- Patriarch of Alexandria and Egypt.
So I guess, we have a parallel with the Greek system in India.

Catholicos is the title used for the Primate of an autocephalous Church in some traditions especially those outside the borders of the Roman empire.
The title of the Georgian chief primate was Catholicos now called Catholicos-Patriarch.  The head of the Nestorian Church of the East in Persia was the Catholicos of Selucia-Csteciphon.  The Armenians have two Cathilicoi in Echtmiadzin and Cilicia, with the Cathilicos of Echtmiadzin being the Supreme Primate and so on. 
Thus Catholicos and Patriarch seem to be titles taken by Heads of Local churches in their respective territories, Patriarch being preferred with the Roman imperial borders, and Catholicos being used by most Churches outside
( The head of the Ethiopian Church is titled Patriarch however)

Mar is used in Syriac churches both OO, Nestorian and Eastern catholic to refer to hierarchs and saints.  So we call our Bishops as Mar X.  At their Episcopal ordination (or monastic tonsure), candidates take new names usually of  Fathers & Saints ( Athanasius, Thimotheos , Paulos etc).  My diocesan hierarch was Fr Geevarghese (syriac for  George) at his monastic tonsure he took the name of Kurillos (Cyril) , so after becoming a Bishop he is known as Mar Kurillos Geevarghese.   But Mar is also used for Saints, hence St Symeon the Stylite( though he was only a monk) or Mar Balai of Aleppo (although he was a Cor Episcopa)

In this particular case, a new diocese was created a new Bishop was ordained and elevated to the Metropolitanate and the new diocese was entrusted to him ( because of the particular nature of our statute we have to do it that way) , the bull was regarding this .  The Metropolitan will be enthroned in his Cathedral in London, when he reaches there from India. 

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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2009, 09:02:18 AM »

I was recently reading a the thread announcing a metropolitan's appointment over UK, Europe and Africa (OO).  In that post paul2004 very lovingly posted:
Quote
H.H. Catholicos of the East appoints H.G. Dr. Mathews Mar Thimothios Metropolitan as the Metropolitan of the Diocese of UK, Europe and Africa.

Circular of His Holiness Moran Mor Baselius Mar Thoma Didymus I, Catholicos of the East 
PDF File:
http://mosc.in/images/stories/File/Kalpana%20to%20Europe%20146.pdf

New bishops:
http://www.icon.org.in/php/BishopConsecration2009.php

Interview with H.G. Dr. Mathews Mar Thimotheos:
http://www.icon.org.in/php/HGMathewsMarThemothios.php


Sincerely
Paul

Looking at all of these names I have begun to notice some general tendencies.  Whenever people on the forum refer to OO bishops, priests, etc.  they put all of their titles in the name and they do it in a certain order. 

Is there a system to this?  Or is it a random coincidence?  Or am I just completely wrong here. 

Also, can anyone explain to me how all of these titles work? 

What does Mar mean and how does it work?  What does H.G. mean and how does it work.

Mar/Mor (the first is Eastern/second Western pronunciation) means "Lord."  Like in the NT "Marantha" Our Lord Come! It is also used for "St." It's Aramaic.

Thank you!  Very informative!  It is interesting that the word means "lord" b/c perhaps there is a relation here to the usage "despota" in the Greek, which also means Lord (but more imperial context).  Interesting possibilities here. 

Quote
Why do a lot of bishops, priests, etc. have two names like Thoma Dydimus I, etc.  Is it like John Paul II or something?  How does that work?  In the EO a bishop has to pick the name of a saint and that becomes their name.  Why the double names?  Sorry i'm just confused about the whole thing. 

Thoma is Aramaic, Dydimos Greek for Twin. John 11:16; 20:24; and 21:2.  It is not a name at all: Syriac tradition says his name was Judas.  He is the Apostolic Founder of the Church in India, but also evangelized a lot of the East.  Some of this may be seen in "Jude and the Relatives of Jesus in the Early Church"
http://books.google.com/books?id=c8h3HWPO8QYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=jude+and+the+relatives+of+jesus#PPA34,M1[/quote]

Thank you for that explanation but it doesn't help me with my question.  Do you happen to know why they use 2 names?  Or is it just because they are synonimous.  Thomas WAS the twin, so they just say twin.  Like John the Evangelist, he WAS an evangelist.  Just trying to figure out why they use certain names and when, and in what context, and where it came from, etc. 

I think the major problem here is that i've never been around or lived in OO culture (armenian, coptic, jacobite, etc.), so I am automatically limited in ability to percieve how to think about this.  Everyone has been very helpful though and I hope I can wrap my mind around it! 

Quote
Also if anyone can give me a list of how the ranks work. We already discussed this with the deaconate thread and some great resources were provided there.  Now i'm trying to figure out how the bishops work (and priests if someone has time, but my primary question is bishops)

What is a "catholicos" of the east?
 

Quote
Catholicos is the equivalent of Patriarch in the West (ironic, but to these traditions, we EO are the West).  Armenia and hence Georgia have Catholicoi.

The C of the East is the Title of the Assyrian Patriarch (who resides in Chicago), like the title of the Patriarch of Antioch "and All the East."

So the C of the East is automatically the assyrian Patriarch (the one in chicago)?  How did you arive at this conclusion? 

I think what might help me is if someone could provide for me or help me find a list of all of the hierarchs in their ranks and orders for all of the OO churches (or at least some).  I think that might help the confusion a little bit. 

Quote
This person who was appointed, was he a metropolitan before, or was he elevated.  It seems from the titles that he was a metropolitan before, but it was very confusing.  I guess this goes back to my question about title order. 

Any info on this would be awesome.  thanks in advance! 


Quote
I'm not as sure on the other questions.  sorry.

I'm sorry too!  your other answers were very helpful. 



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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2009, 09:14:39 AM »



For example, in the Armenian Church, I never hear of metropolitans.  We have bishops, archbishops, patriarchs (of Jerusalem and Constantinople) and Catholicoi (of Etchmiadzin and Cilicia,) but not metropolitans.  In fact, I'm not even sure what a metropolitan is, as opposed to a bishop.  In other OO Churches, however, I hear of metropolitans.

I was going to ask how this works exactly.  Why are the bishops of Jerusalem and Const. called "patriarchs" and the bishops of Etchmiadzin and Cilicia called "catholicoi"? 

You explained it a little bit here:

Quote
In the Armenian Church, a catholicos seems to have a higher rank than a patriarch.  At least that is my impression, (although I don't think the the catholicoi are in a position to tell the patriarchs what to do.)  I don't know how patriarchs and catholicoi rank in the other OO Churches.  And then of course in the Coptic Church, their spiritual leader is called a pope. 

What do you mean "seems to be"...lol.  I wonder if you could possibly ask a priest or even a bishop about these things.  I personally would love to know. 

Quote
The titles can be long, elaborate and sometimes rather confusing.   Smiley  The polite thing is to try to get it as close as you can.  To play it safe, you can't go wrong if you refer to catholicoi, patriarchs and popes as "His Holiness."  Actually, in the Armenian Church, I think we refer to the catholicoi as "His Holiness," and the two patriarchs of Jerusalem and Constantinople as "His Beatitude."

Can you tell me what the terms are in your language for "His Holiness" vs. "His Beatitude"  I'm wondering to see if there are any root similarities or anything like that. 

For example, Patriarch Bartholomew (EP) is called "His All Holiness" or "Agiotate" in Greek.  Metropolitan Jonah (OCA) is called "His Beatitude" which I believe is "Vashe Svetosti" in Church Slavonic (I know this from what we call Patriarch Pavle in Serbia, and since they're both heads of "autocephalous" churches I figure the title is the same). 

Thanks for your help!  Any more help on this would be awesome. 




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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2009, 09:30:00 AM »

Get ready brother i'm about to take this all apart and ask tons of questions.   Grin Grin

Serb,

I myself get confused by the way some of us in the Indian Church use jargon, but I will try and explain as much as possible.

I dont think there is any one unified OO system of using titles, I dont think there is an EO one either for that matter.

I don't know about "unified" but your explanation below is basically the system we use. 

Quote
I believe among the Greeks, an Archbishop( that of Athens) outranks the Metropolitans( of the 66 odd dioceses) ; but in the Slavic tradition, a Metropolitan outranks Archbishops ( as in the OCA , in the Moscow Patriarchate and so on).

This would be correct.  This is the exact ecclesiastical system we use in each respective tradition.  Here is a good web-site that has all of the different titles of different clergy and what is the proper way to address them: http://www.goarch.org/resources/etiquette

Quote
HG is His Grace, used in the Indian Church to address bishops (Episkopas) and Metropolitan Bishops (Metrapolita/Metrapolito).

So you say "His Grace" to both a bishop and a Metropolitan?  Is this correct?  Also, is a Metropolitan higher ranking than a bishop?  You mention that it is: 
Quote
We currently do not use the term Archbishop, but I guess the system implies that a Metrapolito is a Metropolitan Archbishop.  Like the Greeks, the current Indian system , seems to be moving towards making each diocese as a Metropolitanate. 

So I guess, we have a parallel with the Greek system in India.

Also,

Quote
Catholicos is the title used for the Primate of an autocephalous Church in some traditions especially those outside the borders of the Roman empire.
The title of the Georgian chief primate was Catholicos now called Catholicos-Patriarch.  The head of the Nestorian Church of the East in Persia was the Catholicos of Selucia-Csteciphon.  The Armenians have two Cathilicoi in Echtmiadzin and Cilicia, with the Cathilicos of Echtmiadzin being the Supreme Primate and so on. 
Thus Catholicos and Patriarch seem to be titles taken by Heads of Local churches in their respective territories, Patriarch being preferred with the Roman imperial borders, and Catholicos being used by most Churches outside
( The head of the Ethiopian Church is titled Patriarch however)

Awesome!  This was VERY helpful!  But I give you the same question I gave above to Salpy.  Why are some areas the heads of the church called "patriarchs" and others are called "catholicoi" and even others are called "pope"?  I figure it has to do with each local custom, but why some over others, and etc.? 

It seems to me that the Coptic orthodox and the orthodox in india (jacobites) have Metropolitans and etc.  but the armenian church does not and has archbishops instead.  Have I gathered the information correctly? 

Let me try to do it this way: 

(from Salpy = armenian system)

bishops
Archbishops
Patriarchs (of Jerusalem and Const.)
Catholocoi (Etchmiadzin and Cilicia)

from you (jacobite system)

bishops
metropolitans
patriarchs
catholicoi

Nestorians, etc.

all I got for this one was that their heads are called "catholicoi". 

Quote
Mar is used in Syriac churches both OO, Nestorian and Eastern catholic to refer to hierarchs and saints.  So we call our Bishops as Mar X.  At their Episcopal ordination (or monastic tonsure), candidates take new names usually of  Fathers & Saints ( Athanasius, Thimotheos , Paulos etc).  My diocesan hierarch was Fr Geevarghese (syriac for  George) at his monastic tonsure he took the name of Kurillos (Cyril) , so after becoming a Bishop he is known as Mar Kurillos Geevarghese.   But Mar is also used for Saints, hence St Symeon the Stylite( though he was only a monk) or Mar Balai of Aleppo (although he was a Cor Episcopa)

Why is it used to refer to hierarchs and saints?  In the EO tradition you are either SAINT X or you are BISHOP X.  two different terms.  How are they used synonimously?  I guess this is another one of those cultural things that just don't make sense to an outsider.  I'm sorry to cause confusion and etc. 

Also, why did your priest keep his old name?  In the EO tradition once you accept a new name (also at tonsure into monasticism or ordination) that BECOMES your new name, unless there are legal issues and you can retain your old name for legal purposes but you use your new name in all ecclesiastical duties and etc. 

Quote
In this particular case, a new diocese was created a new Bishop was ordained and elevated to the Metropolitanate and the new diocese was entrusted to him ( because of the particular nature of our statute we have to do it that way) , the bull was regarding this .  The Metropolitan will be enthroned in his Cathedral in London, when he reaches there from India. 

Right, so a Metropolitan can have a HUGE area to govern (in this case UK, Europe, & Africa).  So that must mean there arn't a whole heck of a lot of bishops to go around.  Is this the case? 

Sorry about all the questions. Just trying to figure it out. 


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« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2009, 09:57:48 AM »

In the Coptic Church:

-Bishops are addressed as "Your Grace" or "His Grace" (H.G.)
-Metropolitan Bishops are addressed as "His Eminence" (H.E.)
-The Patriarch of Alexandria is addressed as "His Holiness Pope Shenouda" (H.H).
-All three of these are addressed as "Syedna" which means "lord" or "master".  For example, if a bishop tells you to do something you would say "hardra Syenda", which translated could be "yes/ok, my lord"
-Anba is the word for father used for a bishop.  So for example, if I was refering to the Bishop of the Southern US Diocese, I would say "H.G. Anba Youssef", or "H.G. Bishop Youssef".
-The title Pope for the Patriarch of Alexandria is ancient, and was applied there before Rome used it, as the Alexandrian bishop was the first to consecrate bishops under himself.
-The British orthodox church is headed by a Metropolitan. However, since they are not of Arabic origins, he is usually called H.E. Abba Seraphim, not H.E. Anba Seraphim. Another example of a Metropolitan is H.E. Anba Bishoi, who is in charge of ecumenical affairs.
-To my knowledge in the Coptic Church only the Pope/Patriarch has the title 'archbishop', eg: "Pray for the life and standing of our High Priest, Papa Abba Shenouda III, Pope and Patriarch and Archbishop of the great city of Alexandria"
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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2009, 10:03:47 AM »

In the Coptic Church:

-Bishops are addressed as "Your Grace" or "His Grace" (H.G.)
-Metropolitan Bishops are addressed as "His Eminence" (H.E.)
-The Patriarch of Alexandria is addressed as "His Holiness Pope Shenouda" (H.H).
-All three of these are addressed as "Syedna" which means "lord" or "master".  For example, if a bishop tells you to do something you would say "hardra Syenda", which translated could be "yes/ok, my lord"
-Anba is the word for father used for a bishop.  So for example, if I was refering to the Bishop of the Southern US Diocese, I would say "H.G. Anba Youssef", or "H.G. Bishop Youssef".
-The title Pope for the Patriarch of Alexandria is ancient, and was applied there before Rome used it, as the Alexandrian bishop was the first to consecrate bishops under himself.
-The British orthodox church is headed by a Metropolitan. However, since they are not of Arabic origins, he is usually called H.E. Abba Seraphim, not H.E. Anba Seraphim. Another example of a Metropolitan is H.E. Anba Bishoi, who is in charge of ecumenical affairs.
-To my knowledge in the Coptic Church only the Pope/Patriarch has the title 'archbishop', eg: "Pray for the life and standing of our High Priest, Papa Abba Shenouda III, Pope and Patriarch and Archbishop of the great city of Alexandria"

How big of an area is a Metropolitan in charge of?  How about a bishop? 
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« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2009, 10:18:48 AM »

In the Coptic Church:

-Bishops are addressed as "Your Grace" or "His Grace" (H.G.)
-Metropolitan Bishops are addressed as "His Eminence" (H.E.)
-The Patriarch of Alexandria is addressed as "His Holiness Pope Shenouda" (H.H).
-All three of these are addressed as "Syedna" which means "lord" or "master".  For example, if a bishop tells you to do something you would say "hardra Syenda", which translated could be "yes/ok, my lord"
HaaDir yaa sayyidanaa>HaaDir ya sayyidna lit "[I am] present, O our lord!"

Quote
-Anba is the word for father used for a bishop.  So for example, if I was refering to the Bishop of the Southern US Diocese, I would say "H.G. Anba Youssef", or "H.G. Bishop Youssef".
Its Aramaic, written (in English and Arabic) anba, but pronounced "amba"  The Coptic is "apa" usally pronounced "Aba."  Btw, Abbot comes from the same source, and anba is often used for monks.

Quote
-The title Pope for the Patriarch of Alexandria is ancient, and was applied there before Rome used it, as the Alexandrian bishop was the first to consecrate bishops under himself.
Actually the bishop of Alexandria for at least a century was the ONLY bishop in the country.  12 chorbishops assisted, basically to ordain the successor.
The first that we know of the title Pope is in a letter written by Pope Dionysius (248-265) to Philemon:

τοῦτον ἐγὼ τὸν κανόνα καὶ τὸν τύπον παρὰ τοῦ μακαρίου πάπα ἡμῶν Ἡρακλᾶ παρέλαβον. [I received this rule and ordinance from our blessed pope, Heraclas [232-249].]
^ [1], Eusebius, Historia Ecclesiastica Book VII, chapter 7.7] (trans.)

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« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2009, 10:57:58 AM »

Serb,

Yes a Metropolitan outranks a bishops and usually wears a panagia/engolpion and a cross as a symbol of his rank, logically we shoub be using " Your Eminence" , but we don't Smiley.  AFAIK in our church there is no manual which lays down the rules for all this, so sort of things take shape over time by their own accord.


Saints are also called the Qadeeshos ( the Holy one/s) or the Zadeekos (the righteous one/s), in the liturgical texts ; Mar meaning Lord , will be sort of an additional term of respect and devotion to a Saint. 
I would say that Mar is used to refer to hierarchs in the same way. 
Hierarchs will also be referred to as Thirumeni or Syedna(by the West Syrians) like your Vladyka/ Syedna etc.
As you said , such things took shape within a particular context and tradition and it will be difficult to say why , but we can speculate

I think in both our traditions, taking of a new name at the monastic tonsure signifies the death of the old life.  Hieromonks in our tradition will be referred to us Ramban (A honorific title used to address Monk-Priests) X . Where X will be new name.  Bishops however are referred to as Mar X followed by their baptismal name generally. (Perhaps it was done to avoid confusions between bishops having the same monastic names).  When my bishop is commemorated in the Dictyphs he is referred to as Mar Kurrilos (the baptismal name is not used).  So liturgically, we use only one name ; I am sure our practice is primarily to avoid confusion.

The new diocese has a very limited number of parishes, I guess that is the reason  2 whole continents have been included.  The parishes are mostly diaspora parishes in the UK , Ireland , a few in Europe and some parishes and congregations in South Africa and Kenya. Early days yet.

I think you have got the Armenian system figured, inasmuch that the Catholicos of Echtmiadzin is the top Prelate.
I think Catholicos and Patriarch are basically titles having the same authority, in different Churches they have been used in different ways. 
In the Indian Church , the head of the Synod in India is the Catholicos . In the Syriac Church the head of the Synod is the Patriarch.
When both are together, the Patriach is acknowledged as the higher eclessiastic and has some privelages .
I guess the EO comparison would be to the ranking system followed between the EP and MP.

Jacobite usually refers to the part of the Indian Church , which prefers to be under the direct jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Antioch as an autonomous Church. 

Suraj

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« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2009, 12:27:55 PM »

Why do a lot of bishops, priests, etc. have two names like Thoma Dydimus I, etc.  Is it like John Paul II or something?  How does that work?  In  Why the double names? 

The official name of the Catholicose of the East of the Indian Orthodox Church is H.H Baselios MarThoma Dydimus I. His predecessor was H.H Baselios MarThoma Mathews II.

It is easier to explain the name of his predecessor then I will come back to the current Catholicose. The baptismal name or the given name of the late Catholicose was Mathews.  And that is where the name 'Mathews' comes from. The first name in the title Baselios has been used by all Oriental Orthodox Catholicose (also known as Maphriano) of the East since 1533. Similarly all Oriental Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch assumes the title Ignatious. The current Patriarch is H.H Ignatious Zakka (Zakhaes) I. His predecessor was H.H Ignatious Jacob III and before his was H.H Ignatious Aphrem I and so on.

So now going back to the Catholicose of the East H.H H.H Baselios MarThoma Mathews II, we have seen Baselios has been used by all Catholcoi starting 1553 and Mathew is his given name. Starting in 1974, the Catholicose started adding MarThoma (St Thomas) to his title to indicate that he sits on the apostolic see of St.Thomas.

Now in the case of the current Catholicose, H.H Baselios MarThoma Dydimus I, his baptismal given name is Thomas. So his name when he became the Catholicose would have been H.H Baselios MarThoma Thomas I. But the probelm is there was already another Catholicose with the same name H.B Baselios Thomas I in India. This is because there are two oriental orthodox jurisdictions in India. One that is autocephelus and another that is autonomos but is under the Patriarch of Antioch. So inorder to distinguish himself from H.B Baselios Thomas I the Catholicose of the autonomos Oriental Orthodox Church in India under the Patriarch, H.H Baselios MarThoma Dydimus I the Catholicose of the autocephelus Oriental Orthodox Church in India chose the name Dydimus instead of Thomas.
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« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2009, 02:24:42 PM »

In the Coptic Church:

-Bishops are addressed as "Your Grace" or "His Grace" (H.G.)
-Metropolitan Bishops are addressed as "His Eminence" (H.E.)
-The Patriarch of Alexandria is addressed as "His Holiness Pope Shenouda" (H.H).
-All three of these are addressed as "Syedna" which means "lord" or "master".  For example, if a bishop tells you to do something you would say "hardra Syenda", which translated could be "yes/ok, my lord"
-Anba is the word for father used for a bishop.  So for example, if I was refering to the Bishop of the Southern US Diocese, I would say "H.G. Anba Youssef", or "H.G. Bishop Youssef".
-The title Pope for the Patriarch of Alexandria is ancient, and was applied there before Rome used it, as the Alexandrian bishop was the first to consecrate bishops under himself.
-The British orthodox church is headed by a Metropolitan. However, since they are not of Arabic origins, he is usually called H.E. Abba Seraphim, not H.E. Anba Seraphim. Another example of a Metropolitan is H.E. Anba Bishoi, who is in charge of ecumenical affairs.
-To my knowledge in the Coptic Church only the Pope/Patriarch has the title 'archbishop', eg: "Pray for the life and standing of our High Priest, Papa Abba Shenouda III, Pope and Patriarch and Archbishop of the great city of Alexandria"

How big of an area is a Metropolitan in charge of?  How about a bishop? 

Nowadays, it doesn't matter.  "Metropolitan" is considered more of an honorary title, a higher episcopal position, not necessarily one who takes over more lands or oversees more priests or bishops.  For instance, the Coptic Southern US diocese encompasses lots of churches and land (spanning from Texas to Florida), and the one who is in charge is HG Bishop Youssef, whereas the monastery of St. Macarius, being that it is an ancient monastery where at one point was where the patriarch and Pope of Alexandria was chosen is headed by an abbot who is given the title Metropolitan. HE Metropolitan Bishoy is in charge of churches of three cities in close proximity in Egypt, as well as a general bishop for ecumenical affairs (which I personally don't find practical; although he's doing an exemplary job in ecumenism, many people complain of him not spending enough time for his flock in these areas), while HG Bishop Serapion is in charge of more churches in California and Hawaii, and is also quite involved in ecumenism, although only in his area.  Even time is not that much of a factor.  The French and British Orthodox Churches under the Coptic churches as soon as they were established, their leaders have been given the title Metropolitan (perhaps for their special status in being not so Coptic).  Those bishops (called "general bishops") who do not take over a diocese however, I've never seen one called a metropolitan; in fact, they are considered in terms of sacramental practices allowed lower in rank than diocesan bishops, because they cannot ordain priests without the presence of the Pope himself (not sure if they can partake of ordaining with diocesan bishops without the Pope).  Barely do we have in history a bishop becoming Patriarch, but one of those rare occasions, such as HH Pope Shenouda (who was general bishop of education) do happen, and I believe he is the fourth Coptic bishop in history to become Pope, (although technically all four occurred in the 20th century).

So a Metropolitan/Bishop is comparable in the Coptic Church to Archpriest (Hegumen)/Priest

Also, we do address the priest as "His Reverence" ("qodsak" in Arabic...although I don't think that's an accurate translation, since I believe, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, that this also means "holiness") (I've seen in English that we address the Hegumen "His Very Reverence," but in Arabic, I haven't heard a distinction).

The Coptic bishop in Jerusalem is quite strange.  He is given both the title of Metropolitan and Archbishop, perhaps for reasons of there being a patriarchal origin in Jerusalem continued under the Coptic church at some point.
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« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2009, 03:15:58 PM »

From the Constitution of the Syriac Orthodox Chruch:
Quote
Ecclesiastical Hierarchy
Article 6. The Ecclesiastical Hierarchy of the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch consists of : Episcopate, Priesthood, and Deaconry. Each of these is divided into ranks. The Episcopate consists of : the Patriarchate, the Catholicate and the Metropolitanate (wherever “Metropolitan” is mentioned in this Constitution, it also means the Bishop). The Priesthood consists of : the Archpriest (ܟܘܪܝܐ) and the Priest (ܩܫܝܫܐ) , while the Deaconry is comprised of these ranks: the Archdeacon, the Deacon, the Subdeacon, the Reader and the Chanter.

                                                                                 

Article 7.      H. H. the Patriarch is the legitimate successor of St. Peter the Head Apostle. He is the Pontiff who is lawfully elected by : His Beatitude the Catholicos, the Metropolitans of the Archdioceses, the Metropolitans Patriarchal Vicars in the Archdioceses, and the Metropolitan Assistant Patriarch. The Patriarch is the Supreme Head of the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch, the defender of its faith, doctrine, and apostolic traditions. The symbol of its unity, its representative and spokesman everywhere. The general supervisor of all its affairs, and the spiritual father of all Syrian Orthodox people worldwide. He must be obeyed by the Catholicos, Metropolitans, priests, monks, nuns, deacons and all laity. Upon his induction, his name shall be : His Holiness Moran Mor Ignatius . . . (his personal name is to  follow). His name shall be proclaimed throughout the churches of all Syrian Orthodox Archdioceses during the Holy Mass and canonical prayers, before the name of the archdiocese Metropolitan, and in India before the name of the Catholicos. His title is : His Holiness the Supreme Pontiff Moran Mor Ignatius . . . Patriarch of Antioch and all the East and the Supreme Head of the Universal Syrian Orthodox Church.                     

                                                         

Article 8.  His Beatitude The Catholicos (ܡܦܪܝܢܐ ܐܘ ܩܬܘܠܝܩܐ) ranks second after the Patriarch within the Syrian Orthodox Church hierarchy. He is elected only by the Metropolitans under the jurisdiction of the Catholicate See. They must obey him, so must the priests, deacons and all the people within the Syrian Orthodox Archdioceses in India. At his ordination, he is proclaimed : Mor Baselius . . . (his personal name is added here). His name shall be proclaimed throughout the archdioceses in India during the Holy Mass and canonical prayers, after the name of the Patriarch and preceding the name of the Archdiocese Metropolitan. His name should be mentioned also at every Syrian church where he attends prayer. His title is: His Beatitude Mor Baselius . . . Catholicos of the East and Metropolitan of Malankara.                       

                                                                                             

Article 9. The Metropolitan (Archbishop) is one of the church shepherds, the successors of the Apostles. He is nominated by H. H. the Patriarch and  elected by parishioners of the vacant Archdiocese. He is then appointed after the Holy Synod’s approval. He should obey the instructions of H.H the Patriarch. He should be obeyed by the priests, deacons and all the people of his Archdiocese. His name shall be proclaimed throughout the churches of his Archdiocese after the name of H. H. the Patriarch. His title is : “His Eminence…” The title of the Bishop shall be: “His Grace Mor…”.. 

 

Article 10.    The Priest is the one who ministers the Church Sacraments,  and shepherds the spiritual affairs of the faithful within the  church he is assigned to, through the guidance and supervision of the Archdiocese Metropolitan.         

 

 Article 11.    The Deacon assists the clergy in performing church rites.

http://www.soc-wus.org/ourchurch/constitutioneng.html

The distinction between Archpriest and priest is interesting.  The word for Archpriest is related to the term chorbishop, and priest is to "presbyter,elder"  In Peshitta, the Syriac Bible, the term presybter is used for "bishop." It reflected the outgrowth of priests out of the chorbishops.
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« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2009, 04:01:48 PM »

Why do a lot of bishops, priests, etc. have two names like Thoma Dydimus I, etc.  Is it like John Paul II or something?  How does that work?  In  Why the double names? 

The official name of the Catholicose of the East of the Indian Orthodox Church is H.H Baselios MarThoma Dydimus I. His predecessor was H.H Baselios MarThoma Mathews II.

It is easier to explain the name of his predecessor then I will come back to the current Catholicose. The baptismal name or the given name of the late Catholicose was Mathews.  And that is where the name 'Mathews' comes from. The first name in the title Baselios has been used by all Oriental Orthodox Catholicose (also known as Maphriano) of the East since 1533. Similarly all Oriental Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch assumes the title Ignatious. The current Patriarch is H.H Ignatious Zakka (Zakhaes) I. His predecessor was H.H Ignatious Jacob III and before his was H.H Ignatious Aphrem I and so on.

So now going back to the Catholicose of the East H.H H.H Baselios MarThoma Mathews II, we have seen Baselios has been used by all Catholcoi starting 1553 and Mathew is his given name. Starting in 1974, the Catholicose started adding MarThoma (St Thomas) to his title to indicate that he sits on the apostolic see of St.Thomas.

Now in the case of the current Catholicose, H.H Baselios MarThoma Dydimus I, his baptismal given name is Thomas. So his name when he became the Catholicose would have been H.H Baselios MarThoma Thomas I. But the probelm is there was already another Catholicose with the same name H.B Baselios Thomas I in India. This is because there are two oriental orthodox jurisdictions in India. One that is autocephelus and another that is autonomos but is under the Patriarch of Antioch. So inorder to distinguish himself from H.B Baselios Thomas I the Catholicose of the autonomos Oriental Orthodox Church in India under the Patriarch, H.H Baselios MarThoma Dydimus I the Catholicose of the autocephelus Oriental Orthodox Church in India chose the name Dydimus instead of Thomas.


This was totally awesome and very informative.  Thank you VERY much.  Where did you get your information from (like the dates and changing of the names and etc.)  if you don't mind me asking? 


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« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2009, 04:09:13 PM »

In the Coptic Church:

-Bishops are addressed as "Your Grace" or "His Grace" (H.G.)
-Metropolitan Bishops are addressed as "His Eminence" (H.E.)
-The Patriarch of Alexandria is addressed as "His Holiness Pope Shenouda" (H.H).
-All three of these are addressed as "Syedna" which means "lord" or "master".  For example, if a bishop tells you to do something you would say "hardra Syenda", which translated could be "yes/ok, my lord"
-Anba is the word for father used for a bishop.  So for example, if I was refering to the Bishop of the Southern US Diocese, I would say "H.G. Anba Youssef", or "H.G. Bishop Youssef".
-The title Pope for the Patriarch of Alexandria is ancient, and was applied there before Rome used it, as the Alexandrian bishop was the first to consecrate bishops under himself.
-The British orthodox church is headed by a Metropolitan. However, since they are not of Arabic origins, he is usually called H.E. Abba Seraphim, not H.E. Anba Seraphim. Another example of a Metropolitan is H.E. Anba Bishoi, who is in charge of ecumenical affairs.
-To my knowledge in the Coptic Church only the Pope/Patriarch has the title 'archbishop', eg: "Pray for the life and standing of our High Priest, Papa Abba Shenouda III, Pope and Patriarch and Archbishop of the great city of Alexandria"

How big of an area is a Metropolitan in charge of?  How about a bishop? 

Nowadays, it doesn't matter.  "Metropolitan" is considered more of an honorary title, a higher episcopal position, not necessarily one who takes over more lands or oversees more priests or bishops.  For instance, the Coptic Southern US diocese encompasses lots of churches and land (spanning from Texas to Florida), and the one who is in charge is HG Bishop Youssef, whereas the monastery of St. Macarius, being that it is an ancient monastery where at one point was where the patriarch and Pope of Alexandria was chosen is headed by an abbot who is given the title Metropolitan. HE Metropolitan Bishoy is in charge of churches of three cities in close proximity in Egypt, as well as a general bishop for ecumenical affairs (which I personally don't find practical; although he's doing an exemplary job in ecumenism, many people complain of him not spending enough time for his flock in these areas), while HG Bishop Serapion is in charge of more churches in California and Hawaii, and is also quite involved in ecumenism, although only in his area.  Even time is not that much of a factor.  The French and British Orthodox Churches under the Coptic churches as soon as they were established, their leaders have been given the title Metropolitan (perhaps for their special status in being not so Coptic).  Those bishops (called "general bishops") who do not take over a diocese however, I've never seen one called a metropolitan; in fact, they are considered in terms of sacramental practices allowed lower in rank than diocesan bishops, because they cannot ordain priests without the presence of the Pope himself (not sure if they can partake of ordaining with diocesan bishops without the Pope).  Barely do we have in history a bishop becoming Patriarch, but one of those rare occasions, such as HH Pope Shenouda (who was general bishop of education) do happen, and I believe he is the fourth Coptic bishop in history to become Pope, (although technically all four occurred in the 20th century).

So a Metropolitan/Bishop is comparable in the Coptic Church to Archpriest (Hegumen)/Priest

Also, we do address the priest as "His Reverence" ("qodsak" in Arabic...although I don't think that's an accurate translation, since I believe, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, that this also means "holiness") (I've seen in English that we address the Hegumen "His Very Reverence," but in Arabic, I haven't heard a distinction).

The Coptic bishop in Jerusalem is quite strange.  He is given both the title of Metropolitan and Archbishop, perhaps for reasons of there being a patriarchal origin in Jerusalem continued under the Coptic church at some point.

This is a lot to swalllow!   Shocked

So am I correct in saying that it's not quite as "clear-cut" as in the EO?  It seems like you could be a metropolitan, but not necessarily, and that it doesn't really matter in terms of prestige, how many churches you have, etc.  Is this a correct assessment? 

I mean in Greece you have Metropolitans of Islands that have only a few churches, because back in the day they were powerhouses compared to other areas and etc.  I'm wondering if there is a similar system here as well (although not as explicit as in the EO). 

Could you try to do a layout like I attempted to do above.  I think that would be helpful to me. 

Let me take another crack at it actually (based on what you told me): 

Bishop
Bishop of a larger area (still called a bishop)
Metropolitan (also a bishop, but given the title metropolitan as a concession to some kind of status or etc.)
Catholikos (of an entire area or autocephalous church, depending on the jurisdiction)
Patriarch/Pope (also of an autocephalous church, depending on the jurisdiction). 

Is this correct? 

Also, can you tell me more about bishops who are in charge of certain things like "ecumenical affairs" or "education".  How does that work exactly. 
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« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2009, 04:14:35 PM »

Also, Ideally I would like to see a set up like this: 

Syrian Church (Jacobite)   

bishop                           
metropolitan                 
catholikos                     
patriarch                       

Other Indian OO church (didn't catch the name)

metropolitan (bishop)
catholikos
patriarch

Armenian church

bishop
catholikos
pope/patriarch

Coptic church

bishop, etc. etc. etc. 

I'd like to have a flow list like that for each church.  Anyone who could help me with that would be most welcome.  I mean...if each of you would just do your own jurisdiction we would have all of them and a complete list.  If you could also go through and just explain a little bit the differentiations that would be helpful also (like I did above). 


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« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2009, 04:50:10 PM »

In the Coptic Church:

-Bishops are addressed as "Your Grace" or "His Grace" (H.G.)
-Metropolitan Bishops are addressed as "His Eminence" (H.E.)
-The Patriarch of Alexandria is addressed as "His Holiness Pope Shenouda" (H.H).
-All three of these are addressed as "Syedna" which means "lord" or "master".  For example, if a bishop tells you to do something you would say "hardra Syenda", which translated could be "yes/ok, my lord"
-Anba is the word for father used for a bishop.  So for example, if I was refering to the Bishop of the Southern US Diocese, I would say "H.G. Anba Youssef", or "H.G. Bishop Youssef".
-The title Pope for the Patriarch of Alexandria is ancient, and was applied there before Rome used it, as the Alexandrian bishop was the first to consecrate bishops under himself.
-The British orthodox church is headed by a Metropolitan. However, since they are not of Arabic origins, he is usually called H.E. Abba Seraphim, not H.E. Anba Seraphim. Another example of a Metropolitan is H.E. Anba Bishoi, who is in charge of ecumenical affairs.
-To my knowledge in the Coptic Church only the Pope/Patriarch has the title 'archbishop', eg: "Pray for the life and standing of our High Priest, Papa Abba Shenouda III, Pope and Patriarch and Archbishop of the great city of Alexandria"

How big of an area is a Metropolitan in charge of?  How about a bishop? 

Nowadays, it doesn't matter.  "Metropolitan" is considered more of an honorary title, a higher episcopal position, not necessarily one who takes over more lands or oversees more priests or bishops.  For instance, the Coptic Southern US diocese encompasses lots of churches and land (spanning from Texas to Florida), and the one who is in charge is HG Bishop Youssef, whereas the monastery of St. Macarius, being that it is an ancient monastery where at one point was where the patriarch and Pope of Alexandria was chosen is headed by an abbot who is given the title Metropolitan. HE Metropolitan Bishoy is in charge of churches of three cities in close proximity in Egypt, as well as a general bishop for ecumenical affairs (which I personally don't find practical; although he's doing an exemplary job in ecumenism, many people complain of him not spending enough time for his flock in these areas), while HG Bishop Serapion is in charge of more churches in California and Hawaii, and is also quite involved in ecumenism, although only in his area.  Even time is not that much of a factor.  The French and British Orthodox Churches under the Coptic churches as soon as they were established, their leaders have been given the title Metropolitan (perhaps for their special status in being not so Coptic).  Those bishops (called "general bishops") who do not take over a diocese however, I've never seen one called a metropolitan; in fact, they are considered in terms of sacramental practices allowed lower in rank than diocesan bishops, because they cannot ordain priests without the presence of the Pope himself (not sure if they can partake of ordaining with diocesan bishops without the Pope).  Barely do we have in history a bishop becoming Patriarch, but one of those rare occasions, such as HH Pope Shenouda (who was general bishop of education) do happen, and I believe he is the fourth Coptic bishop in history to become Pope, (although technically all four occurred in the 20th century).

So a Metropolitan/Bishop is comparable in the Coptic Church to Archpriest (Hegumen)/Priest

Also, we do address the priest as "His Reverence" ("qodsak" in Arabic...although I don't think that's an accurate translation, since I believe, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, that this also means "holiness") (I've seen in English that we address the Hegumen "His Very Reverence," but in Arabic, I haven't heard a distinction).

The Coptic bishop in Jerusalem is quite strange.  He is given both the title of Metropolitan and Archbishop, perhaps for reasons of there being a patriarchal origin in Jerusalem continued under the Coptic church at some point.

This is a lot to swalllow!   Shocked

So am I correct in saying that it's not quite as "clear-cut" as in the EO?  It seems like you could be a metropolitan, but not necessarily, and that it doesn't really matter in terms of prestige, how many churches you have, etc.  Is this a correct assessment? 

I mean in Greece you have Metropolitans of Islands that have only a few churches, because back in the day they were powerhouses compared to other areas and etc.  I'm wondering if there is a similar system here as well (although not as explicit as in the EO). 

Could you try to do a layout like I attempted to do above.  I think that would be helpful to me. 

Let me take another crack at it actually (based on what you told me): 

Bishop
Bishop of a larger area (still called a bishop)
Metropolitan (also a bishop, but given the title metropolitan as a concession to some kind of status or etc.)
Catholikos (of an entire area or autocephalous church, depending on the jurisdiction)
Patriarch/Pope (also of an autocephalous church, depending on the jurisdiction). 

Is this correct? 

Also, can you tell me more about bishops who are in charge of certain things like "ecumenical affairs" or "education".  How does that work exactly. 

Here's the "heirarchy" of the Coptic Synod in a nutshell:

a Hegumen
------
a Chor-episcopos
------
General Bishop (including Exarchs)
Diocesan/Abbot Bishop
Metropolitan (anomaly:  Archbishop of Jerusalem)
Pope/Patriarch/Archbishop

Here's a list from Wiki:

http://orthodoxwiki.org/The_Holy_Synod_of_the_Coptic_Orthodox_Patriarchate_of_Alexandria

PS Not sure where Auxiliary bishops go, but if I was to take a guess, probably general bishop, but those who assist Metropolitans probably only need Metropolitans, not the Pope, for ordination of priests.  Auxiliary might also be sort of like a transition between General Bishop and a Diocesan Bishop (which in ancient times might have been given to a chor-episcopos)
PSS the whole idea of General bishop in the heirarchy is a 20th century idea taken to incredible lengths by the present Pope
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« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2009, 05:17:34 PM »


PS Not sure where Auxiliary bishops go, but if I was to take a guess, probably general bishop, but those who assist Metropolitans probably only need Metropolitans, not the Pope, for ordination of priests.  Auxiliary might also be sort of like a transition between General Bishop and a Diocesan Bishop (which in ancient times might have been given to a chor-episcopos)

Maybe then we can do this: 

a Hegumen
------
a Chor-episcopos
------
General Bishop (including Exarchs)
Diocesan/Abbot Bishop
Metropolitan (anomaly:  Archbishop of Jerusalem)
     -  Auxiliary bishop* (can only ordain with permission of the Metropolitan
Pope/Patriarch/Archbishop
     -  Auxiliary bishop* (can only ordain with permission of Pope/Patriarch/Archbishop, and only susceptible to his orders and no one else's)

*  Both types of Auxiliary bishops are at the same level but the differentiation is in whome they serve and in what capacity and who they are under the 'control' of. 

Does this work? 

Quote
PSS the whole idea of General bishop in the heirarchy is a 20th century idea taken to incredible lengths by the present Pope

What do you mean?  First of all, do you mean that the present Pope is the one who has told everyone "all bishops are bishops are bishops, and the rest are just titles we have given as a sing of respect"??  Did he say something to this effect?  What do you mean by HE is the one whose idea it is? 

Can you help clarify this for me? 

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« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2009, 06:12:51 PM »

General Bishops are bishops who are ordained bishops, but are not assigned to a diocese. Since a bishop can't do anything in another's diocese without permission from that bishop, general bishops can't do anything on their own since they have no diocese.  H.H. Pope Kyrollos VI (116th Patriarch) started the practice. H.H. Pope Shenouda III (117th patriarch) was made General Bishop of Education by H.H. Pope Kyrollos VI. Since a general bishop has no diocese, they are eligible for selection as Patrarch (since it doesn't violate the canon of moving from one diocese to another), and so H.G. Bishop Shenouda became H.H. Pope Shenouda III when he was selected.

H.H. Pope Shenouda III has ordained a lot of General Bishops.

A hegoumen doesn't really belong in the list since this is just an honorary title for a presbyter, they are not part of the episcopate. The Hegoumen of a church is the priest of that church, and cannot be transferred to another church. Any other preists in that church assist him. They are basically the Abbot of a church.

rural-bishop (khoori-episcopos) may be the same as auxiliary bishop, I'm not sure. It seems that they are not allowed to ordain priests, but may ordain deacons and are accorded the honour of a bishop.  Perhaps there are auxiliary bishops who are full bishops can ordain priests, I don't know.  I don't think that General Bishops are khoori-episcopos, they are full bishops who can ordain priests. However, since they have no diocese, they cannot ordain priests except by the request of the bishop of a diocese. For this reason I don't think they do in practice.


PS Not sure where Auxiliary bishops go, but if I was to take a guess, probably general bishop, but those who assist Metropolitans probably only need Metropolitans, not the Pope, for ordination of priests.  Auxiliary might also be sort of like a transition between General Bishop and a Diocesan Bishop (which in ancient times might have been given to a chor-episcopos)

Maybe then we can do this: 

a Hegumen
------
a Chor-episcopos
------
General Bishop (including Exarchs)
Diocesan/Abbot Bishop
Metropolitan (anomaly:  Archbishop of Jerusalem)
     -  Auxiliary bishop* (can only ordain with permission of the Metropolitan
Pope/Patriarch/Archbishop
     -  Auxiliary bishop* (can only ordain with permission of Pope/Patriarch/Archbishop, and only susceptible to his orders and no one else's)

*  Both types of Auxiliary bishops are at the same level but the differentiation is in whome they serve and in what capacity and who they are under the 'control' of. 

Does this work? 

Quote
PSS the whole idea of General bishop in the heirarchy is a 20th century idea taken to incredible lengths by the present Pope

What do you mean?  First of all, do you mean that the present Pope is the one who has told everyone "all bishops are bishops are bishops, and the rest are just titles we have given as a sing of respect"??  Did he say something to this effect?  What do you mean by HE is the one whose idea it is? 

Can you help clarify this for me? 


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« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2009, 08:17:40 PM »



For example, in the Armenian Church, I never hear of metropolitans.  We have bishops, archbishops, patriarchs (of Jerusalem and Constantinople) and Catholicoi (of Etchmiadzin and Cilicia,) but not metropolitans.  In fact, I'm not even sure what a metropolitan is, as opposed to a bishop.  In other OO Churches, however, I hear of metropolitans.

I was going to ask how this works exactly.  Why are the bishops of Jerusalem and Const. called "patriarchs" and the bishops of Etchmiadzin and Cilicia called "catholicoi"? 

You explained it a little bit here:

Quote
In the Armenian Church, a catholicos seems to have a higher rank than a patriarch.  At least that is my impression, (although I don't think the the catholicoi are in a position to tell the patriarchs what to do.)  I don't know how patriarchs and catholicoi rank in the other OO Churches.  And then of course in the Coptic Church, their spiritual leader is called a pope. 

What do you mean "seems to be"...lol.  I wonder if you could possibly ask a priest or even a bishop about these things.  I personally would love to know. 

Quote
The titles can be long, elaborate and sometimes rather confusing.   Smiley  The polite thing is to try to get it as close as you can.  To play it safe, you can't go wrong if you refer to catholicoi, patriarchs and popes as "His Holiness."  Actually, in the Armenian Church, I think we refer to the catholicoi as "His Holiness," and the two patriarchs of Jerusalem and Constantinople as "His Beatitude."

Can you tell me what the terms are in your language for "His Holiness" vs. "His Beatitude"  I'm wondering to see if there are any root similarities or anything like that. 

For example, Patriarch Bartholomew (EP) is called "His All Holiness" or "Agiotate" in Greek.  Metropolitan Jonah (OCA) is called "His Beatitude" which I believe is "Vashe Svetosti" in Church Slavonic (I know this from what we call Patriarch Pavle in Serbia, and since they're both heads of "autocephalous" churches I figure the title is the same). 

Thanks for your help!  Any more help on this would be awesome. 


A.  Why we have two catholicoi and two patriarchs in the Armenian Church:

This is an old thread where I briefly explain why we have two catholicoi and two patriarchs:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8076.msg105459.html#msg105459



B.  Our ranks of clergy:

As far as I understand, these are the ranks of clergy we have in the Armenian Church, with the Armenian word for the position and the English translation for what they are:

1.  Kahana (someone told me this word has the same root as the name Cohen   Smiley  )
     A Kahana is a married priest.

2.  Vartabed
     A Vartabed is an unmarried priest.

3.  Dzayrakooyn Vartabed
     This one is hard to translate.  I think it is best described as the title for an unmarried priest who is very educated.

4.  Yebiskopos
     Bishop

5.  Arkebiskopos
     Archbishop
     
6.  Patriark
     Patriarch, of course.  Smiley

7.  Katoghikos
     Catholicos

Note:  The "gh" above is pronounced kind of like a French "r," only it's more of a glide.  I'm told that where a Greek word was borrowed into Classical Armenian, the Greek "l" would be replaced by the "gh." 


C.  What you call the clergy when you talk to them and how to greet them:


When you greet a priest, bishop, etc. in the Armenian Church you are supposed to kiss his hand and touch your forehead to the hand.  Below is what you call them when you address them, as well as how to greet them when you meet them and venerate their hands.


1.  Kahana

    a.  When you address a married priest, you call him "Der Hayr." (Der rhymes with fair, Hayr rhymes with fire.)  Hayr means Father.  Der means Lord, but in Classical Armenian it also meant Mr.  So you are really calling the priest "Mr. Father."  In English you would just call him Father.

     b.  When you meet him, you say "Orhniah Der."  Orhniah means bless.  In English you would probably just say "Bless me, Father."



2.  Vartabed and Dzayrakooyn Vartabed

     a.  You address them as "Hayr Soorp."  Hayr is Father.  Soorp means holy.  In English you would just call them Father.

     b.  When you meet them, you say "Asdvadz Oknagan Hayr Soorp."  That roughly means "May God be your helper."


3.  Yebiskopos and Arkebiskopos

     a.  You address them as "Surpazan Hayr" or just "Surpazan."  Surpazan is kind of another word for holy.  In English, a bishop is "Your Grace" and an Archbishop is "Your Eminence."
     
     b.  When you meet them, you say "Asdvadz Oknagan Surpazan Hayr."


4.  Patriark

     a.  I think you call them "Patriark Surpazan Hayr."  In English it's "Your Beatitude."

     b.  You greet them, "Asdvadz Oknagan Patriark Surpazan Hayr."
     

5.  Katoghikos

     a.  I think you call him "Vehapar Der."  I've also heard "Vehapar Hayr" or just "Vehapar."  I have no idea how to translate "vehapar."  It's just what we call the Catholicos.  People talking about him will say "Vehapar did this, Vehapar did that."  In English it would be "Your Holiness."

     b.  When you greet him, you say "Dzara yem, Vehapar Der."  Dzara yem means "I am your servant."


I heard a story about the last greeting.  I knew a deacon who went to seminary at Etchmiadzin during the time when His Holiness Vazken I was Catholicos.  He said whenever they would meet the Vehapar, they would venerate his hand and give the greeting.  There was this one seminarian who didn't really know Armenian well, and he would mistakenly say, "Dzarav em, Vehapar Der."  Dzarav means thirsty, so he was really telling the Vehapar that he was thristy.  His Holiness never said anything to him.  He would just grin.
     



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« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2009, 08:28:25 PM »

I heard a story about the last greeting.  I knew a deacon who went to seminary at Etchmiadzin during the time when His Holiness Vazken I was Catholicos.  He said whenever they would meet the Vehapar, they would venerate his hand and give the greeting.  There was this one seminarian who didn't really know Armenian well, and he would mistakenly say, "Dzarav em, Vehapar Der."  Dzarav means thirsty, so he was really telling the Vehapar that he was thristy.  His Holiness never said anything to him.  He would just grin.
What a beautiful story!
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« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2009, 09:08:41 PM »



For example, in the Armenian Church, I never hear of metropolitans.  We have bishops, archbishops, patriarchs (of Jerusalem and Constantinople) and Catholicoi (of Etchmiadzin and Cilicia,) but not metropolitans.  In fact, I'm not even sure what a metropolitan is, as opposed to a bishop.  In other OO Churches, however, I hear of metropolitans.

I was going to ask how this works exactly.  Why are the bishops of Jerusalem and Const. called "patriarchs" and the bishops of Etchmiadzin and Cilicia called "catholicoi"? 

You explained it a little bit here:

In the Armenian Church, a catholicos seems to have a higher rank than a patriarch.  At least that is my impression, (although I don't think the the catholicoi are in a position to tell the patriarchs what to do.)  I don't know how patriarchs and catholicoi rank in the other OO Churches.  And then of course in the Coptic Church, their spiritual leader is called a pope. 

The reason why the patriarchs are lower than the catholicoi is that the Catholicos of Jerusalem was sent there for obvious reasons (it is, for the OO's a exarchate of the Syriac Church: unlike the other patriarchates, Jerusalem didn't develop its OO counterpart).  The catholicos of Constantinople was from the requirements of the Ottoman state.  In both cases, they were archbishops, but there an inferiority complex next to the EO primates, so the title patriarch was given to them.

A similar process, but in reverse, happened between the EO and OO Popes of Alexandria.

Quote
The titles can be long, elaborate and sometimes rather confusing.   Smiley  The polite thing is to try to get it as close as you can.  To play it safe, you can't go wrong if you refer to catholicoi, patriarchs and popes as "His Holiness."  Actually, in the Armenian Church, I think we refer to the catholicoi as "His Holiness," and the two patriarchs of Jerusalem and Constantinople as "His Beatitude."

Quote
Can you tell me what the terms are in your language for "His Holiness" vs. "His Beatitude"  I'm wondering to see if there are any root similarities or anything like that. 

For example, Patriarch Bartholomew (EP) is called "His All Holiness" or "Agiotate" in Greek.  Metropolitan Jonah (OCA) is called "His Beatitude" which I believe is "Vashe Svetosti" in Church Slavonic (I know this from what we call Patriarch Pavle in Serbia, and since they're both heads of "autocephalous" churches I figure the title is the same). 

Thanks for your help!  Any more help on this would be awesome. 


Quote
A.  Why we have two catholicoi and two patriarchs in the Armenian Church:

This is an old thread where I briefly explain why we have two catholicoi and two patriarchs:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8076.msg105459.html#msg105459

Ooops.  Missed that.



Quote
B.  Our ranks of clergy:

As far as I understand, these are the ranks of clergy we have in the Armenian Church, with the Armenian word for the position and the English translation for what they are:

1.  Kahana (someone told me this word has the same root as the name Cohen   Smiley  )
     A Kahana is a married priest.
It is a direct borrowing from Aramaic/Hebrew Kahen/Kohen (Arabic kaahin) "priest."  Armenia was under heavy influence of the Syriacs.

Quote
2.  Vartabed
     A Vartabed is an unmarried priest.

3.  Dzayrakooyn Vartabed
     This one is hard to translate.  I think it is best described as the title for an unmarried priest who is very educated.

4.  Yebiskopos
     Bishop

5.  Arkebiskopos
     Archbishop
     
6.  Patriark
     Patriarch, of course.  Smiley

7.  Katoghikos
     Catholicos

Note:  The "gh" above is pronounced kind of like a French "r," only it's more of a glide.  I'm told that where a Greek word was borrowed into Classical Armenian, the Greek "l" would be replaced by the "gh." 


In Classical Armenian it was a back "l," which over time has become the sound you describe.  For you Greeks, its the same as ghamma in "logos."



Quote
I heard a story about the last greeting.  I knew a deacon who went to seminary at Etchmiadzin during the time when His Holiness Vazken I was Catholicos.  He said whenever they would meet the Vehapar, they would venerate his hand and give the greeting.  There was this one seminarian who didn't really know Armenian well, and he would mistakenly say, "Dzarav em, Vehapar Der."  Dzarav means thirsty, so he was really telling the Vehapar that he was thristy.  His Holiness never said anything to him.  He would just grin.
I'll second it, a nice story.
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« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2009, 11:20:47 PM »

Ok in a nutshell and a very simplistic way this is the hierarchy in the jurisdictions in India.

Malankara Orthodox Church( the autocephalous jurisdiction)

Bishop
Metropolitan
Catholicos
with primacy of honour given to the Patriarch

Malankara Jacobite Church (the autonomous jurisdiction)
Bishop
Metropolitan
Maphrian/Catholicos
Patriarch ( with a primacy of jurisdiction and honour)

In both these jurisdictions, the position of Chor Bishop exists, but it is considered to exist in the category of priests , the position now is more or less similar to that of Archpriest, although Chorbishops have the faculty to ordain Readers (which is not exercised by then nowadays).

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« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2009, 11:25:11 PM »

And,

Yes just like Salpy said ,  people will refer to the Patriarch and Catholicos as Bava.
So it is "Bava said this, bava did that " and so on.

There is no exact translation, but I guess it is equivalent to "Papa" when used to refer to Prelates( and not your dad)
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« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2009, 02:25:50 PM »

Thank you all for this!  It has been extremely helpful.  IF anyone would like to add anything to this, or help me with any OO churches I may have missed, I would definitely appreciate it. 
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« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2009, 08:24:01 PM »


Where did you get your information from (like the dates and changing of the names and etc.)  if you don't mind me asking? 


I am an Oriental Orthodox from India. The addition of MarThoma to the name of the Catholicose happened during my own lifetime in 1974 and I remember that year. Regarding the year in which Baselios was added to the name of every Catholicose I got it from http://catholicose.org/PauloseII/Catholicate.htm , where a listing of all the Oriental Orthodox Catholicose of the East is given.
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« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2009, 10:40:41 PM »

Serb and Mathew,

The list of prelates which Mathew has provided is good for the dates , but presents the view of only one of the Malankara factions.

I wanted to avoid going into what divides us, but since it has come up, I had to say this.

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« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2009, 10:51:32 AM »

In the Ethiopian Tewahido Orthodox the titles are from top: Patriarch;  Archbishop;  Bishop; and then Episcopos.

Hiywot
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« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2009, 12:38:53 PM »

In the Ethiopian Tewahido Orthodox the titles are from top: Patriarch;  Archbishop;  Bishop; and then Episcopos.

Hiywot

Can you give some more details as to how this works?  How much "area" does a bishop cover vs. an Episcopos?  How about an Archbishop vs. a Bishop?  Thanks! 
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« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2009, 04:57:22 AM »

Can you give some more details as to how this works?  How much "area" does a bishop cover vs. an Episcopos?  How about an Archbishop vs. a Bishop?  Thanks! 

Well, let me begin by rewritings the hierarchy which goes on like this: Patriarch and Ichege; Archbishop/Bishop; Episcopos; Qomos; Archpriest; priest; and Deacon.

The patriarch is also the Ichege of the seat of Tekle-Haimanot. Ichege was the second post in the ecclesiastical hierarchy and was the head of all monastic orders. But since 1950 the two positions are merged

Archbishop/Bishop were previously responsible for regional or provincial diocese only but now are appointed for sub-regional diocese as well. Episcopos  is responsible for district diocese. I personally find the distinction between archbishop, bishop, and episcopos, becoming vague since they all can ordain and usually have same authority.

Qomos is representative of the episcopos in the church and Archpriest is representative of the qomos in the church. Below the Archpriest are Gebez and Merigeta. Gebez facilitates and supervises all liturgical activities (prayers and the mass). Merigeta facilitates and supervises all ministerial/educational activities.

Regards,

Hiywot



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« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2009, 11:38:29 AM »

Can you give some more details as to how this works?  How much "area" does a bishop cover vs. an Episcopos?  How about an Archbishop vs. a Bishop?  Thanks! 

Well, let me begin by rewritings the hierarchy which goes on like this: Patriarch and Ichege; Archbishop/Bishop; Episcopos; Qomos; Archpriest; priest; and Deacon.

The patriarch is also the Ichege of the seat of Tekle-Haimanot. Ichege was the second post in the ecclesiastical hierarchy and was the head of all monastic orders. But since 1950 the two positions are merged

Archbishop/Bishop were previously responsible for regional or provincial diocese only but now are appointed for sub-regional diocese as well. Episcopos  is responsible for district diocese. I personally find the distinction between archbishop, bishop, and episcopos, becoming vague since they all can ordain and usually have same authority.

Qomos is representative of the episcopos in the church and Archpriest is representative of the qomos in the church. Below the Archpriest are Gebez and Merigeta. Gebez facilitates and supervises all liturgical activities (prayers and the mass). Merigeta facilitates and supervises all ministerial/educational activities.

Regards,

Hiywot

That is quite a heirarchy.  It would seem that Archpriest sounds very similar to Khouri Episcopos in our church.  To us, we call the "Qomos" Archpriest, or Hegumen.
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« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2009, 06:45:48 PM »

Just a followup on what Mr. Suraj wrote.  Various titles commonly used in the Indian Church. We use both Syriac and Indian titles interchangeably.

Ordination is commonly known as  'Pattam Kuda' which is a purely an Indian term.

- Upadeshi - Preacher (I am not sure of this is an official position, but commonly used for preachers)
- Shushrushakan  (From Sanskrit 'shushrusha' means service. One who serves in the altar, a 'Koruyo', altar boy)
- Shemmachan  (Full Deacon, From Syriac M'shamshana)  - there are various orders of Deacon
- Kanya-Sthri  (Kanya- Virgin, Sthri - women, Nun)
- Arkkadiyakkon (Archdeacon - There was a time when the administrative head of the Church was Archdeacon). This title is currently only honorary.
- Achen, Kathanar, Pattakkaran (priest, Kahna, Qashisha/Kashisha)   -  same terms used by Assyrian Church in India an in fact all St. Thomas Christians. Persian:  qashiysh. Malayalam: Achen means father.
[If a parish has more than one priest, the chief priest is called 'Valiyachan' and the assistant 'Kochachan')

- Sanyasi Pattam (From the Indian/Sanskrit term 'Sanyas' which means renunciation. This term is commonly used for a priest who is unmarried.)
- Ramban/Rambachan - (Monk. One who received tonsure, wearing the schema - head cover with crosses on it)
-
- Reesh Dayara/ Acharya  (Head of a monastery or Ashram. In some Ashrams the head is called 'Acharya' as in the case of Christu shishya Ashram, Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu. Dayara - monastery. Reesh (Syriac) - Head).
- Chor-Episcopa
- Episcopa (Bishop with out a diocese assigned)
- Metropolitan (After enthronement of a bishop. Bishops/Metropolitans are commonly called with respect as 'Thirumeni' and sometimes 'Metrachan'. e.g. Athanasios Thirumeni, Makarios Thirumeni.)

- Catholicos (Head of the Holy Synod. A Catholicos is commonly addressed 'Bava' or with more respect 'Bava Thirumeni'. Apostle Thomas is the first in the list of Catholicos of the East - first Archbishop of the East according to the Hudaya Canon of Mar Gregorios Bar Ebraya followed by the Church).

- Mar Thoma/ Malankara Metropolitan (Administrative head of the Church. In the past Indian/Malankara Church was part of the Eastern Syrian Church and its administrative head was the Archdeacon (Arkkadiyakkon). Archdeacon Thoma became the Metropolitan head of the Church with the title 'Mar Thoma 1' (17th century). The succession continued as 'Mar Thoma 11', 'Mar Thoma 111' ... With the establishment of Catholicate of the East in India, gradually the 'Mar Thoma' succession and the Catholicos succession merged. Currently the Catholicos also holds title of the Malankara metropolitan.  This is why the official title of the head of the Church is 'Catholicos of the East and (Mar Thoma) Malankara Metropolitan'. He is the spiritual and administrative head of the Church.)

As you noticed above 'Achen' means a father or priest. But it is added to other orders like "ShemmAchen" (Deacon), Rambachan (monk), Methrachen (Metropolitan).

Kochamma, Baskyamma - wife of a priest (Baskyomo/Baskyama - is Syriac)

Paul

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« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2009, 08:30:04 PM »

Can you give some more details as to how this works?  How much "area" does a bishop cover vs. an Episcopos?  How about an Archbishop vs. a Bishop?  Thanks! 

Well, let me begin by rewritings the hierarchy which goes on like this: Patriarch and Ichege; Archbishop/Bishop; Episcopos; Qomos; Archpriest; priest; and Deacon.

The patriarch is also the Ichege of the seat of Tekle-Haimanot. Ichege was the second post in the ecclesiastical hierarchy and was the head of all monastic orders. But since 1950 the two positions are merged

Archbishop/Bishop were previously responsible for regional or provincial diocese only but now are appointed for sub-regional diocese as well. Episcopos  is responsible for district diocese. I personally find the distinction between archbishop, bishop, and episcopos, becoming vague since they all can ordain and usually have same authority.

Qomos is representative of the episcopos in the church and Archpriest is representative of the qomos in the church. Below the Archpriest are Gebez and Merigeta. Gebez facilitates and supervises all liturgical activities (prayers and the mass). Merigeta facilitates and supervises all ministerial/educational activities.

Regards,

Hiywot

That is quite a heirarchy.  It would seem that Archpriest sounds very similar to Khouri Episcopos in our church.  To us, we call the "Qomos" Archpriest, or Hegumen.

I was just rereading this and a question came to mind.  Does the term "khouri episcopos" come from the ecclesiastical title "chorespiskopos"??  That would be incredible....


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« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2009, 08:43:36 PM »

Can you give some more details as to how this works?  How much "area" does a bishop cover vs. an Episcopos?  How about an Archbishop vs. a Bishop?  Thanks! 

Well, let me begin by rewritings the hierarchy which goes on like this: Patriarch and Ichege; Archbishop/Bishop; Episcopos; Qomos; Archpriest; priest; and Deacon.

The patriarch is also the Ichege of the seat of Tekle-Haimanot. Ichege was the second post in the ecclesiastical hierarchy and was the head of all monastic orders. But since 1950 the two positions are merged

Archbishop/Bishop were previously responsible for regional or provincial diocese only but now are appointed for sub-regional diocese as well. Episcopos  is responsible for district diocese. I personally find the distinction between archbishop, bishop, and episcopos, becoming vague since they all can ordain and usually have same authority.

Qomos is representative of the episcopos in the church and Archpriest is representative of the qomos in the church. Below the Archpriest are Gebez and Merigeta. Gebez facilitates and supervises all liturgical activities (prayers and the mass). Merigeta facilitates and supervises all ministerial/educational activities.

Regards,

Hiywot

That is quite a heirarchy.  It would seem that Archpriest sounds very similar to Khouri Episcopos in our church.  To us, we call the "Qomos" Archpriest, or Hegumen.

I was just rereading this and a question came to mind.  Does the term "khouri episcopos" come from the ecclesiastical title "chorespiskopos"??  That would be incredible....

Yes, indeed.  It comes straight from the Greek.
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« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2009, 09:30:09 PM »

Can you give some more details as to how this works?  How much "area" does a bishop cover vs. an Episcopos?  How about an Archbishop vs. a Bishop?  Thanks! 

Well, let me begin by rewritings the hierarchy which goes on like this: Patriarch and Ichege; Archbishop/Bishop; Episcopos; Qomos; Archpriest; priest; and Deacon.

The patriarch is also the Ichege of the seat of Tekle-Haimanot. Ichege was the second post in the ecclesiastical hierarchy and was the head of all monastic orders. But since 1950 the two positions are merged

Archbishop/Bishop were previously responsible for regional or provincial diocese only but now are appointed for sub-regional diocese as well. Episcopos  is responsible for district diocese. I personally find the distinction between archbishop, bishop, and episcopos, becoming vague since they all can ordain and usually have same authority.

Qomos is representative of the episcopos in the church and Archpriest is representative of the qomos in the church. Below the Archpriest are Gebez and Merigeta. Gebez facilitates and supervises all liturgical activities (prayers and the mass). Merigeta facilitates and supervises all ministerial/educational activities.

Regards,

Hiywot

That is quite a heirarchy.  It would seem that Archpriest sounds very similar to Khouri Episcopos in our church.  To us, we call the "Qomos" Archpriest, or Hegumen.

I was just rereading this and a question came to mind.  Does the term "khouri episcopos" come from the ecclesiastical title "chorespiskopos"??  That would be incredible....

Yes, indeed.  It comes straight from the Greek.

OMG!  Ok you have to explain this more because this is a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE statement (imo). 

In the ancient church (i'm gona speak generally here) chorepiskopi did not really come around until the 4th century and they were sent from the bishop of let's say Alexandria to a city right outside of the walls of Alexandria.  this bishop then would run that parish, by the blessing and authority of the bishop of alexandria ONLY until such a time when the city could support its own bishop and grew big enough to be it's own church, at which time the bishop would take over as the actual bishop of that city with full authority etc. 

Now the discussion has been that this is traditionally where the whole idea of "auxiliary" bishop comes from, because chorepiskopi would be in charge of certain specific aspects of the ministry of a bishop of a city, like finances, or philanthrope, or etc.  Or they would be in charge of a city as I expressed above. 

So for you to say that this title still exists, and that they function in a specific sense (like an archbishop as described above) would for me logically mean that this ministry still exists, but in a totally different way before, and that it has evolved into its present form as you have it in the coptic church.  That would be a MAJOR MAJOR thesis and even a PhD idea...

Any further musings or etc. would be helpful for me on this one...
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« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2009, 10:05:35 PM »

I really don't know what more to say.  I share with you how exciting it is to see similarities and evolutions in the practice.  I'm no where near anyone right now to help me recommend some reading for you.  I hope someone else can be of assistance.

I would say this though.  What you describe as a choriepiscopos of the fourth century would be what a general bishop in the Coptic Church or a specific hegumen that the Pope appoints.  For instance, most North American parishes don't have their own diocese.  It's called an "Archdiocese" centered in Cedar Grove, NJ specifically because we answer straight to the Archbishop himself, the Pope.  The General bishop right now, HG Bishop David is precisely taking this role in a very similar manner as a fourth century choriepiscopos, and we (the Archdiocese that I'm under) answer directly to the Pope through him.  The other dioceses in the US, the Southern US and California/Hawaii have already well-established dioceses, and thus the bishop of the dioceses there (Their Graces Bishops Youssef and Serapion respectively) don't necessarily answer to the Pope, but deal with the parishes with their own trustedly independant authority and ordain priests on their own where needed.

Smaller than dioceses, you have parishes in N. America that are not under the specific established dioceses of the Southern US and California/Hawaii where they might have lost a priest in a sudden unexpected manner.  In which case, the Pope will appoint a priest (I've heard cases where sometimes a general bishop is sent as well) to go these places and tend to the parishes there until a new priest can be officially given them.  It can be a priest from a nearby parish, or a priest straight from Egypt that has very good experience with organization and developing of parishes, like Hegumen Fr. Tadros Malaty.  I was born in Minnesota of all places simply because my grandfather, originally a priest from Geyoushi, Cairo, was sent to take care of the parish there, and then we moved to NJ (when I was only a couple months old) because my grandfather had to take care of a parish that was burnt down in Jersey City.  Later on, he stayed as the official priest of that parish.

Usually the priests chosen are hegumens (I haven't heard exceptions).

PS  By virtue of being his first grandson, I was baptized after his name, Antonios.
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« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2009, 06:38:08 AM »

If you don't mind, I would like to start a project where we can possibly try to trace the development of what happened to the chorepiskopos in the EO church and in the OO church.  Would you be willing to help me out here?  I'm willing to do my own research of course, but I would need help as to where to start looking into this. 

I would like to start by posting all of the information I have on chorepiskopos, and then if you could take a look at it and tell me how that lines up with chorepiskopi in your church I would appreciate it (as you already have done in smaller incriments here). 

I was not sure if I should start a new thread on this, or if I can just keep it here.  I'm sure the moderators will take care of it if they think it is appropriate.

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« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2009, 12:05:46 PM »


I was not sure if I should start a new thread on this, or if I can just keep it here.  I'm sure the moderators will take care of it if they think it is appropriate.


I have no problem with it staying here.  If you would like me to split off the last few posts and start a new thread on this subject, let me know.  Otherwise, I think it would be fine here.  This is kind of interesting.  I just thought a bishop was a bishop and the rest was just fancy names.  I never knew it could be this complicated.
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« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2009, 01:41:38 PM »

If it works out as a thread starter. Then serb you can submit the article on the front page
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« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2009, 02:36:54 PM »

If it works out as a thread starter. Then serb you can submit the article on the front page

If it works out I plan on doing a PhD on it to be honest.  This is by far one of the most fascinating leads i've ever found in 7 years of professional theology.  I'm working now on compiling what I have, to start this process. 


I was not sure if I should start a new thread on this, or if I can just keep it here.  I'm sure the moderators will take care of it if they think it is appropriate.


I have no problem with it staying here.  If you would like me to split off the last few posts and start a new thread on this subject, let me know.  Otherwise, I think it would be fine here.  This is kind of interesting.  I just thought a bishop was a bishop and the rest was just fancy names.  I never knew it could be this complicated.

LOL.  thanks for the heads up.  I don't mind it staying here either.  I never thought that this position could exist anywhere else (chorepiskopos), especially considering the history behind how the non-chalcedonian church started (I'm using the term in light of it's historical basis = the churches that left AFTER chalcedon specifically in that history in time). 


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« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2009, 03:29:26 PM »

Personally, I don't know where you can start book-wise.  I'm no where near a Coptic Church or anyone knowledgeable I know at the moment to find some resources for you.   I wonder if someone else can help.  The best I can help you to start with is to email one of our bishops in the US and perhaps get more information from him.

HG Bishop David is also put as General Bishop of the Coptic Church in Cleveland.  Perhaps, if you go to the parish in Cleveland and interview one of the priests, you can also get a lot of information from them, perhaps even on where to start or how to contact the bishops in the US.

HG Bishop David:  http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/directory/church.php?show=123
HG Bishop Youssef:  http://www.suscopts.org/diocese/bishop/
HG Bishop Serapion:  http://www.lacopts.org/index.php/lacopts/contact/
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« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2009, 04:45:52 PM »


Now the discussion has been that this is traditionally where the whole idea of "auxiliary" bishop comes from, because chorepiskopi would be in charge of certain specific aspects of the ministry of a bishop of a city, like finances, or philanthrope, or etc.  Or they would be in charge of a city as I expressed above. 

So for you to say that this title still exists, and that they function in a specific sense (like an archbishop as described above) would for me logically mean that this ministry still exists, but in a totally different way before, and that it has evolved into its present form as you have it in the coptic church.  That would be a MAJOR MAJOR thesis and even a PhD idea...

Any further musings or etc. would be helpful for me on this one...

from

http://copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/7_priesthood.html

KHOORI-EPISCOPOS is a Greek word meaning ‘bishop’ or ‘villages’ or ‘fields’. He helps the bishop or metropolitan of the diocese in the service and visitation of the villages.

The rank of Khoori-episcopos (or the bishop or overseer) came to existence by the end of the third century AD in Asia Minor when the dioceses extended and their division was not preferred, so there existed an utmost need for the presence for the bishop to visit and care for them.

Members of the Nicene Council in 325 AD included 15 Khoori-episcopos from Asia Minor and Syria.

The rank of Khoori-episcopos disappeared from our Coptic church a long time ago, and was then revived by His Holiness Pope Shenouda III when he ordained some monks to the rank of Khoori-Episcopos to become assistants to some metropolitans and bishops who required them to care for the needs of the service in their large dioceses. His Holiness promoted most of them later on, to general bishops and bishops of dioceses.
The rank of Khoori-Episcopos is unclear in features and specifications, as some consider it a bishopric rank, and it is nearer to the bishopric rank than to priesthood.

Khoori-Episcopos is a word meaning ‘villages’.

The candidate of this rank bears the title ‘Anba’ which is given to bishops or higher.

His choice is fulfilled among monks, just like the bishops.

His crown is like the bishop’s with a very slight difference.

He has authority to ordain various ranks of deacons.

He is a member of the Holy Synod of the church, like the bishops.

His name is mentioned like the bishop, in all prayers and church hymns.

Before the Nicene Council, this rank was for the married, but the Nicene Council restricted it to monks, just like the bishops.

It seems that the rank ‘Khoori’ or ‘clergy’, present now in other fellow churches, which is equal to the rank of hegomen in our church, is derived from ‘Khoori-Episcopos.’

The fathers Khoori-Episcopos ordained by His Holiness Pope Shenouda III, are ordained after the Reconciliation Prayer.

The Rite of ordination of Khoori-Episcopos was not found in the Ritual Books of the Coptic church, it was borrowed from the fellow Syrian church and needs to be Copticized.


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