OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 30, 2014, 01:58:29 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Life on other planets?  (Read 9314 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
_Seraphim_
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Diocese of Western America (under His Grace Bishop Maxim)
Posts: 657


May Orthodoxy become our orthopraxis


WWW
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2009, 10:38:47 PM »

Talk to yourself much??

I take the time to contemplate how and what exactly to communicate.
Logged

"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."
-St. Athanasius (†444)

Pray for Orthodox Unity

"Behold the light of our Agreed Statement on Christology"
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state04.html
Byzantine2008
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 280



« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2009, 11:18:32 PM »

“All Planets the Same: Religion’s Response to Space Life V,”
Rev. John S. Romanides, PhD., The Boston Globe, April 8, 1965, page 18.

I can foresee no way in which the teachings of the Orthodox Christian tradition could be affected by the discovery of intelligent beings on another planet. Some of my colleagues feel that even a discussion of the consequences of such a possibility is in itself a waste of time for serious theology and borders on the fringes of foolishness.

I am tempted to agree with them for several reasons.

As I understand the problem, the discovery of intelligent life on another planet would raise questions concerning traditional Roman Catholic and Protestant teachings regarding creation, the fall, man as the image of God, redemption and Biblical inerrancy.

First one should point out that in contrast to the traditions deriving from Latin Christianity, Greek Christianity never had a fundamentalist or literalist understanding of Biblical inspiration and was never committed to the inerrancy of scripture in matters concerning the structure of the universe and life in it. In this regard some modern attempts at de-mything the Bible are interesting and at times amuzing [sic].

Since the very first centuries of Christianity, theologians of the Greek tradition did not believe, as did the Latins, that humanity was created in a state of perfection from which it fell. Rather the Orthodox always believed that man [was] created imperfect, or at a low level of perfection, with the destiny of evolving to higher levels of perfection.

The fall of each man, therefore, entails a failure to reach perfection, rather than any collective fall from perfection.

Also spiritual evolution does not end in a static beatific vision. It is a never ending process which will go on even into eternity.

Also Orthodox Christianity, like Judaism, never knew the Latin and Protestant doctrine of original sin as an inherited Adamic guilt putting all humanity under a divine wrath which was supposedly satisfied by the death of Christ.

Thus the solidarity of the human race in Adamic guilt and the need for satisfaction of divine justice in order to avoid hell are unknown in the Greek Fathers.

This means that the interdependance [sic] and solidarity of creation and its need for redemption and perfection are seen in a different light.

The Orthodox believe that all creation is destined to share in the glory of God. Both damned and glorified will be saved. In other words both will have vision of God in his uncreated glory, with the difference that for the unjust this same uncreated glory of God will be the eternal fires of hell.

God is light for those who learn to love Him and a consuming fire for those who will not. God has no positive intent to punish.

For those not properly prepared, to see God is a cleansing experience, but one which does not move eternally toward higher reaches of perfection.

In contrast, hell is a static state of perfection somewhat similar to Platonic bliss.

In view of this the Orthodox never saw in the Bible any three story universe with a hell of created fire underneath the earth and a heaven beyond the stars.

For the Orthodox discovery of intelligent life on another planet would raise the question of how far advanced these beings are in their love and preparation for divine glory.

As on this planet, so on any other, the fact that one may have not as yet learned about the Lord of Glory of the Old and New Testament, does not mean that he is automatically condemned to hell, just as one who believes in Christ is not automatically destined to be involved in the eternal movement toward perfection.

It is also important to bear in mind that the Greek Fathers of the Church maintain that the soul of man is part of material creation, although a high form of it, and by nature mortal.

Only God is purely immaterial.

Life beyond death is not due to the nature of man but to the will of God. Thus man is not strictly speaking the image of God. Only the Lord of Glory, or the Angel of the Lord of Old and New Testament revelation is the image of God.

Man was created according to the image of God, which means that his destiny is to become like Christ who is the Incarnate Image of God.

Thus the possibility of intelligent beings on another planet being images of God as men on earth are supposed to be is not even a valid question from an Orthodox point of view.

Finally one could point out that the Orthodox Fathers rejected the Platonic belief in immutable archetypes of which this world of change is a poor copy.

This universe and the forms in it are unique and change is of the very essence of creation and not a product of the fall.

Furthermore the categories of change, motion and history belong to the eternal dimensions of salvation-history and are not to be discard[ed] in some kind of eternal bliss.

Thus the existence of intelligent life on another planet behind or way ahead of us in intellectual and spiritual attainment will change little in the traditional beliefs of Orthodox Christianity.

An excellent article thank you for sharing it.

It pretty much answers my original question..

When you gaze into the sky on a clear night you can't help but to think that we are either not alone in this universe or alone in the universe....

Either way both conclusions are intriguing not to say the least...

 Smiley
Logged

Let your will be done O Lord Jesus Christ through the intercession of you All Pure Mother and all the saints!
Bogoliubtsy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,268



« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2009, 11:34:44 PM »

Exodus 21:17  "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

My point being- some of the material of the OT is contingent upon time and culture, while other parts are meant to convey a higher meaning  not meant to be taken literally.  To state that other intelligent life can not exist beyond our solar system because, according to your view, Genesis implies it, is to take a book of an essentially spiritual, higher meaning and hold it up as hard science, which it was never intended to be.

Over the last several decades, there have been millions of “contactees” (persons who claim to have experienced contact with extraterrestrials)… including a large number of “hard scientists.”   These people claim they were contacted by intelligent life/entities/beings from other planets/dimensions.   And these “beings” always communicate messages of a very philosophical/religious nature.  Their messages always discourage any belief in a single omnipotent Creator, and instead emphasize a variety of bizarre alternative explanations for the existence of mankind.  (One of the most common is: the aliens claim to have visited earth millions of years ago to perform an experiment in which they planted humans “seeds”… i.e. they “created” us.)

Quote
“Some or many of the experiences, it may be, are the result of hoaxes or hallucinations; but it is simply impossible to dismiss all of the many millions of UFO reports in this way.  A great number of modern mediums and their spiritistic phenomena are also fraudulent; but mediumistic spiritism itself, when it is genuine, undeniably produces real “paranormal” phenomena under the action of demons.  UFO phenomena, having the same source, are no less real.”
-Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, by Fr Seraphim Rose

You don't need to quote Fr. Seraphim Rose to me. I'm familiar.

I'd like to read about some of these millions of encounters- preferably those from scientists. Are they available online?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 11:35:50 PM by Bogoliubtsy » Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara
Starlight
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA (Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Posts: 1,537


« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2009, 01:39:48 AM »

The article of Fr. John Romanides is amazing. Thank you for posting it here, Ukiemeister.

Seraphim, you are referring to a higher status of humans. But the ETs (if they exist) also can be considered a form of human life, and therefore, they can possess human intelligence.
Logged
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2009, 10:08:28 AM »

I would have to say that the supposed Alien life that is, and has been visiting us, is not from another planet. If they are from another world, why not finally touch down at the White House Lawn? Why must they all exist in darkness and shadows? Is there any case of alien abduction where the abductee loved the experience? I haven't seen one. Only after repeated abductions do some begin to just "accept" what is happening, and listen to their "visitors". It seems to me, and others that study this phenomenon, that these abductions are meant to mentally, emotionally, and spiritually change people. I agree with Seraphim. This modern/not-so-modern experience of aliens is demonic.
Logged
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2009, 10:37:22 AM »

“All Planets the Same: Religion’s Response to Space Life V,”
Rev. John S. Romanides, PhD., The Boston Globe, April 8, 1965, page 18.

I can foresee no way in which the teachings of the Orthodox Christian tradition could be affected by the discovery of intelligent beings on another planet. Some of my colleagues feel that even a discussion of the consequences of such a possibility is in itself a waste of time for serious theology and borders on the fringes of foolishness.

I am tempted to agree with them for several reasons.

As I understand the problem, the discovery of intelligent life on another planet would raise questions concerning traditional Roman Catholic and Protestant teachings regarding creation, the fall, man as the image of God, redemption and Biblical inerrancy.

First one should point out that in contrast to the traditions deriving from Latin Christianity, Greek Christianity never had a fundamentalist or literalist understanding of Biblical inspiration and was never committed to the inerrancy of scripture in matters concerning the structure of the universe and life in it. In this regard some modern attempts at de-mything the Bible are interesting and at times amuzing [sic].

Since the very first centuries of Christianity, theologians of the Greek tradition did not believe, as did the Latins, that humanity was created in a state of perfection from which it fell. Rather the Orthodox always believed that man [was] created imperfect, or at a low level of perfection, with the destiny of evolving to higher levels of perfection.

The fall of each man, therefore, entails a failure to reach perfection, rather than any collective fall from perfection.

Also spiritual evolution does not end in a static beatific vision. It is a never ending process which will go on even into eternity.

Also Orthodox Christianity, like Judaism, never knew the Latin and Protestant doctrine of original sin as an inherited Adamic guilt putting all humanity under a divine wrath which was supposedly satisfied by the death of Christ.

Thus the solidarity of the human race in Adamic guilt and the need for satisfaction of divine justice in order to avoid hell are unknown in the Greek Fathers.

This means that the interdependance [sic] and solidarity of creation and its need for redemption and perfection are seen in a different light.

The Orthodox believe that all creation is destined to share in the glory of God. Both damned and glorified will be saved. In other words both will have vision of God in his uncreated glory, with the difference that for the unjust this same uncreated glory of God will be the eternal fires of hell.

God is light for those who learn to love Him and a consuming fire for those who will not. God has no positive intent to punish.

For those not properly prepared, to see God is a cleansing experience, but one which does not move eternally toward higher reaches of perfection.

In contrast, hell is a static state of perfection somewhat similar to Platonic bliss.

In view of this the Orthodox never saw in the Bible any three story universe with a hell of created fire underneath the earth and a heaven beyond the stars.

For the Orthodox discovery of intelligent life on another planet would raise the question of how far advanced these beings are in their love and preparation for divine glory.

As on this planet, so on any other, the fact that one may have not as yet learned about the Lord of Glory of the Old and New Testament, does not mean that he is automatically condemned to hell, just as one who believes in Christ is not automatically destined to be involved in the eternal movement toward perfection.

It is also important to bear in mind that the Greek Fathers of the Church maintain that the soul of man is part of material creation, although a high form of it, and by nature mortal.

Only God is purely immaterial.

Life beyond death is not due to the nature of man but to the will of God. Thus man is not strictly speaking the image of God. Only the Lord of Glory, or the Angel of the Lord of Old and New Testament revelation is the image of God.

Man was created according to the image of God, which means that his destiny is to become like Christ who is the Incarnate Image of God.

Thus the possibility of intelligent beings on another planet being images of God as men on earth are supposed to be is not even a valid question from an Orthodox point of view.

Finally one could point out that the Orthodox Fathers rejected the Platonic belief in immutable archetypes of which this world of change is a poor copy.

This universe and the forms in it are unique and change is of the very essence of creation and not a product of the fall.

Furthermore the categories of change, motion and history belong to the eternal dimensions of salvation-history and are not to be discard[ed] in some kind of eternal bliss.

Thus the existence of intelligent life on another planet behind or way ahead of us in intellectual and spiritual attainment will change little in the traditional beliefs of Orthodox Christianity.

I love Father John, but I have an issue with what he says in red above. If creation was subjected to futility, as St. Paul says, would this not also include the universe? Or does our fall only effect the earth?
Logged
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2009, 10:58:54 AM »

Decay seems to be a universal problem in our Universe.







JNORM888



Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2009, 11:01:05 AM »

Decay seems to be a universal problem in our Universe.







JNORM888




Exactly. That is what I was wondering about. Is this decay happening because of the fall? And if so, how could any being, on any other planet, NOT be tainted by our fall?
Logged
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2009, 11:28:28 AM »

Exodus 21:17  "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

My point being- some of the material of the OT is contingent upon time and culture, while other parts are meant to convey a higher meaning  not meant to be taken literally.  To state that other intelligent life can not exist beyond our solar system because, according to your view, Genesis implies it, is to take a book of an essentially spiritual, higher meaning and hold it up as hard science, which it was never intended to be.

Over the last several decades, there have been millions of “contactees” (persons who claim to have experienced contact with extraterrestrials)… including a large number of “hard scientists.”   These people claim they were contacted by intelligent life/entities/beings from other planets/dimensions.   And these “beings” always communicate messages of a very philosophical/religious nature.  Their messages always discourage any belief in a single omnipotent Creator, and instead emphasize a variety of bizarre alternative explanations for the existence of mankind.  (One of the most common is: the aliens claim to have visited earth millions of years ago to perform an experiment in which they planted humans “seeds”… i.e. they “created” us.)

Quote
“Some or many of the experiences, it may be, are the result of hoaxes or hallucinations; but it is simply impossible to dismiss all of the many millions of UFO reports in this way.  A great number of modern mediums and their spiritistic phenomena are also fraudulent; but mediumistic spiritism itself, when it is genuine, undeniably produces real “paranormal” phenomena under the action of demons.  UFO phenomena, having the same source, are no less real.”
-Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, by Fr Seraphim Rose

You don't need to quote Fr. Seraphim Rose to me. I'm familiar.

I'd like to read about some of these millions of encounters- preferably those from scientists. Are they available online?

Thanks.

So scientists are infallible? They are the new infallible authority? Anyone that MUST interprete everything from a philosophical naturalistic perspective should not be trusted.

There was one cynical guy I saw on TV that tried to explain away demon possession, and haunted houses.

He tried to make it seem as if the people are either

1.) delusional.

2.) Or the bricks in the walls of the homes act like video and audio recording devices.


Whenever Sola Philosophical naturalism is your interpretive grid then goofy answers like this are the outcome. You can't have an intelligent conversation with an audio/video recording. And the person can't be delusional if more than one person can eventually see and hear the samethings.


The same is true when it comes to Atheists trying to explain away near death experiences. To them, everyone must have the same experience in order for it to be true. If one of them, didn't have the experience when they almost died, then they assume that noone else can have them......so anyone that claimed to of had one must be lying.....or just delusional.

They also feel that if you can duplicate a similar effect in a lab then it must be fake. They all ignore the fact that some people who had near death experiences saw things in other rooms, and on top of the hospital building......and were able to describe what they saw with accuracy.

So cynics who are Sola Philosophical Naturalists will always explain away anything and everything that goes against their worldview.





JNORM888
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 11:38:02 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Bogoliubtsy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,268



« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2009, 11:37:25 AM »

Exodus 21:17  "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

My point being- some of the material of the OT is contingent upon time and culture, while other parts are meant to convey a higher meaning  not meant to be taken literally.  To state that other intelligent life can not exist beyond our solar system because, according to your view, Genesis implies it, is to take a book of an essentially spiritual, higher meaning and hold it up as hard science, which it was never intended to be.

Over the last several decades, there have been millions of “contactees” (persons who claim to have experienced contact with extraterrestrials)… including a large number of “hard scientists.”   These people claim they were contacted by intelligent life/entities/beings from other planets/dimensions.   And these “beings” always communicate messages of a very philosophical/religious nature.  Their messages always discourage any belief in a single omnipotent Creator, and instead emphasize a variety of bizarre alternative explanations for the existence of mankind.  (One of the most common is: the aliens claim to have visited earth millions of years ago to perform an experiment in which they planted humans “seeds”… i.e. they “created” us.)

Quote
“Some or many of the experiences, it may be, are the result of hoaxes or hallucinations; but it is simply impossible to dismiss all of the many millions of UFO reports in this way.  A great number of modern mediums and their spiritistic phenomena are also fraudulent; but mediumistic spiritism itself, when it is genuine, undeniably produces real “paranormal” phenomena under the action of demons.  UFO phenomena, having the same source, are no less real.”
-Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, by Fr Seraphim Rose

You don't need to quote Fr. Seraphim Rose to me. I'm familiar.

I'd like to read about some of these millions of encounters- preferably those from scientists. Are they available online?

Thanks.

So scientists are infallible? They are the new infallible authority? Anyone that MUST interprete everything from a philosophical naturalistic perspective should not be trusted.

There was one cynical guy I saw on TV that tried to explain away demon possession, and haunted houses.

He tried to make it seem as if the people are either

1.) delusional.

2.) Or the bricks in the walls of the homes act like video and audio recording devices.


Whenever Sola Philosophical naturalism is your interpretive grid then goofy answers like this are the outcome. You can't have an intelligent conversation with an audio/video recording. And the person can't be delusional if more than one person can eventual see and hear the samethings.





JNORM888

No, not at all. If you read back a few posts you will see that Seraphim mentioned abductions experienced by those in the "hard sciences". I was interested in reading about those particular abduction experiences.
Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2009, 11:45:31 AM »

Decay seems to be a universal problem in our Universe.







JNORM888




Exactly. That is what I was wondering about. Is this decay happening because of the fall? And if so, how could any being, on any other planet, NOT be tainted by our fall?

True,

It would seem that all within the Universe are tainted......at least it would seem that way. There is a sense of beauty in knowing that God will save the Kosmos.

Universal decay & the eventual Recapitulation of all things seem to compliment eachother.





JNORM888
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 11:45:58 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2009, 11:47:49 AM »

Exodus 21:17  "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

My point being- some of the material of the OT is contingent upon time and culture, while other parts are meant to convey a higher meaning  not meant to be taken literally.  To state that other intelligent life can not exist beyond our solar system because, according to your view, Genesis implies it, is to take a book of an essentially spiritual, higher meaning and hold it up as hard science, which it was never intended to be.

Over the last several decades, there have been millions of “contactees” (persons who claim to have experienced contact with extraterrestrials)… including a large number of “hard scientists.”   These people claim they were contacted by intelligent life/entities/beings from other planets/dimensions.   And these “beings” always communicate messages of a very philosophical/religious nature.  Their messages always discourage any belief in a single omnipotent Creator, and instead emphasize a variety of bizarre alternative explanations for the existence of mankind.  (One of the most common is: the aliens claim to have visited earth millions of years ago to perform an experiment in which they planted humans “seeds”… i.e. they “created” us.)

Quote
“Some or many of the experiences, it may be, are the result of hoaxes or hallucinations; but it is simply impossible to dismiss all of the many millions of UFO reports in this way.  A great number of modern mediums and their spiritistic phenomena are also fraudulent; but mediumistic spiritism itself, when it is genuine, undeniably produces real “paranormal” phenomena under the action of demons.  UFO phenomena, having the same source, are no less real.”
-Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, by Fr Seraphim Rose

You don't need to quote Fr. Seraphim Rose to me. I'm familiar.

I'd like to read about some of these millions of encounters- preferably those from scientists. Are they available online?

Thanks.

So scientists are infallible? They are the new infallible authority? Anyone that MUST interprete everything from a philosophical naturalistic perspective should not be trusted.

There was one cynical guy I saw on TV that tried to explain away demon possession, and haunted houses.

He tried to make it seem as if the people are either

1.) delusional.

2.) Or the bricks in the walls of the homes act like video and audio recording devices.


Whenever Sola Philosophical naturalism is your interpretive grid then goofy answers like this are the outcome. You can't have an intelligent conversation with an audio/video recording. And the person can't be delusional if more than one person can eventual see and hear the samethings.





JNORM888

No, not at all. If you read back a few posts you will see that Seraphim mentioned abductions experienced by those in the "hard sciences". I was interested in reading about those particular abduction experiences.

Understood





JNORM888
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,531


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2009, 12:06:32 PM »

I don't believe there is intelligent life anywhere in the universe.   Smiley

Witty reply… but this subject isn’t exactly a laughing matter.


Idle speculation then?
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Bogoliubtsy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,268



« Reply #58 on: March 24, 2009, 12:12:12 PM »

I don't believe there is intelligent life anywhere in the universe.   Smiley

Witty reply… but this subject isn’t exactly a laughing matter.


If only the Orthodox took poverty, hunger, and disease as seriously as they seem to take aliens.
Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,531


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #59 on: March 24, 2009, 12:26:08 PM »

I don't believe there is intelligent life anywhere in the universe.   Smiley

Witty reply… but this subject isn’t exactly a laughing matter.


If only the Orthodox took poverty, hunger, and disease as seriously as they seem to take aliens.

It's really a matter of World View. In the secular mindset, suffering ( Poverty, Disease, Old Age and Death etc.) is a separate issue from Spiritual Life and it's concerns. Suffering is caused by matter rubbing up against more matter and causing a result. Marx and Hegal were great champions of this idea which they expanded to include how the great sweep of history moves forward.

But for the Christian, there is no separation between how we save ourselves and how our salvation effects others. And this salvation ( for the Orthodox at least)is not just some ephemeral notion of spirituality but a salvation of both the body and soul as it exists in this World and also beyond this World. It is a single whole and a continuum.   
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
_Seraphim_
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Diocese of Western America (under His Grace Bishop Maxim)
Posts: 657


May Orthodoxy become our orthopraxis


WWW
« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2009, 12:47:17 AM »

If only the Orthodox took poverty, hunger, and disease as seriously as they seem to take aliens.


How exactly does the existence of this thread nullify the entire world-wide Orthodox Church’s charity?
Logged

"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."
-St. Athanasius (†444)

Pray for Orthodox Unity

"Behold the light of our Agreed Statement on Christology"
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state04.html
_Seraphim_
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Diocese of Western America (under His Grace Bishop Maxim)
Posts: 657


May Orthodoxy become our orthopraxis


WWW
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2009, 12:48:18 AM »

When you gaze into the sky on a clear night you can't help but to think that we are either not alone in this universe or alone in the universe....


We’re not alone.  There are trillions of species of physical life here on our planet earth.   “Out there” in the heavens (and yet not isolated from earth) are demons, satan, the holy angelic hosts, the saints, the Mother of God, and the Holy Trinity.

The Uncreated God, in His unfathomable love for us, assumed created humanity so that mankind might be saved… even to the point of suffering on the cross.  Is it so unthinkable that such a loving God would create the entire physical universe exclusively for mankind?… placing innumerable galaxies countless light-years away just for the sole reason of allowing us to mark our yearly seasons and chart our geographical navigation?  This not only reveals God’s love for us, but also gives us a glimpse into the infiniteness of the Eternal Creator.  Its rather humbling to think of it that way.
Logged

"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."
-St. Athanasius (†444)

Pray for Orthodox Unity

"Behold the light of our Agreed Statement on Christology"
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state04.html
_Seraphim_
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Diocese of Western America (under His Grace Bishop Maxim)
Posts: 657


May Orthodoxy become our orthopraxis


WWW
« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2009, 12:49:42 AM »

I'd like to read about some of these millions of encounters- preferably those from scientists. Are they available online?


To clarify: there are millions of reported extraterrestrial encounters worldwide.  Some of which have been hard scientists. 


If you are serious in your inquiry on this subject, I highly recommend a book that documents one of the most well known and highly official studies on the subject:
DMT: The Spirit Molecule, by Dr. Rick Strassman
(DMT is a naturally-occurring chemical in plants, animals, and even humans – produced in the center of our brain by the pineal gland)

From 1990-1995, Dr. Strassman was the head of an official study by the U.S. government on near-death-experiences, alien abduction, shamanistic trance, out-of-body-travel, occultic mediumism, etc.

He published the results of this study in his book: DMT: The Spirit MoleculeDr. Strassman openly admits being totally unprepared, emotionally and intellectually, for the frequency and bizarreness of the volunteers' encounters with beings. It was always an unpredictable two-way communication – and "they" were always in control.  Personally, he is very uncomfortable with the idea that "contact" is what DMT is about.  The concept and implications of non-corporeal entities generally appears to trouble him deeply.
Logged

"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."
-St. Athanasius (†444)

Pray for Orthodox Unity

"Behold the light of our Agreed Statement on Christology"
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state04.html
_Seraphim_
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Diocese of Western America (under His Grace Bishop Maxim)
Posts: 657


May Orthodoxy become our orthopraxis


WWW
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2009, 12:50:11 AM »

The article of Fr. John Romanides is amazing. Thank you for posting it here, Ukiemeister.


It is amazing that a scholarly article from a person in the 20th century is considered to be on par with (or even exceeding) the writings of St. Basil the Great, St. Maximos the Confessor, St. Augustine, St. John Damasence, St. Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain, St. Symeon the New Theologian, etc.
Logged

"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."
-St. Athanasius (†444)

Pray for Orthodox Unity

"Behold the light of our Agreed Statement on Christology"
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state04.html
_Seraphim_
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Diocese of Western America (under His Grace Bishop Maxim)
Posts: 657


May Orthodoxy become our orthopraxis


WWW
« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2009, 12:50:30 AM »

Seraphim, you are referring to a higher status of humans. But the ETs (if they exist) also can be considered a form of human life, and therefore, they can possess human intelligence.


Could you please provide some Patristic literature to validate such claims?
Logged

"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."
-St. Athanasius (†444)

Pray for Orthodox Unity

"Behold the light of our Agreed Statement on Christology"
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state04.html
_Seraphim_
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Diocese of Western America (under His Grace Bishop Maxim)
Posts: 657


May Orthodoxy become our orthopraxis


WWW
« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2009, 12:50:52 AM »

I would have to say that the supposed Alien life that is, and has been visiting us, is not from another planet. If they are from another world, why not finally touch down at the White House Lawn? Why must they all exist in darkness and shadows? Is there any case of alien abduction where the abductee loved the experience? I haven't seen one. Only after repeated abductions do some begin to just "accept" what is happening, and listen to their "visitors". It seems to me, and others that study this phenomenon, that these abductions are meant to mentally, emotionally, and spiritually change people. I agree with Seraphim. This modern/not-so-modern experience of aliens is demonic.


Thank you
Logged

"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."
-St. Athanasius (†444)

Pray for Orthodox Unity

"Behold the light of our Agreed Statement on Christology"
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state04.html
_Seraphim_
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Diocese of Western America (under His Grace Bishop Maxim)
Posts: 657


May Orthodoxy become our orthopraxis


WWW
« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2009, 12:53:36 AM »

This universe and the forms in it are unique and change is of the very essence of creation and not a product of the fall.

I love Father John, but I have an issue with what he says in red above. If creation was subjected to futility, as St. Paul says, would this not also include the universe? Or does our fall only effect the earth?

…how could any being, on any other planet, NOT be tainted by our fall?

True, it would seem that all within the Universe are tainted......at least it would seem that way. There is a sense of beauty in knowing that God will save the Kosmos.
Universal decay & the eventual Recapitulation of all things seem to compliment each other.


Quote
St. Symeon the New Theologian:

Adam was created with a body that was incorrupt, even though material and not yet spiritual, and he was placed by the Creator God as an immortal king over an incorrupt world, not only over Paradise, but also over the whole creation which was under the heavens… This whole creation in the beginning was incorrupt and was created by God in the manner of Paradise.

[St. Symeon makes it clear that man is on a level of leadership/intelligence unrivaled in all of creation.]

Quote
God knew that our race would multiply to an infinite, innumerable multitude on the earth.

[And here he further makes it clear that mankind as a whole is destined to remain “earth-bound” until the end of this age… i.e. the true Second Coming of Christ]


Quote
Through sin, the cosmos [the universe as a whole] became a place of death and corruption.
-St. Maximus the Confessor

Quote
At the fall the entire visible creation fell into corruption along with man.”
The Patristic Understanding of the Cosmos before the Fall, by Hieromonk Damascene
http://mihaicaragiu.blogspot.com/2008/12/patristic-understanding-of-cosmos.html
Logged

"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."
-St. Athanasius (†444)

Pray for Orthodox Unity

"Behold the light of our Agreed Statement on Christology"
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state04.html
_Seraphim_
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Diocese of Western America (under His Grace Bishop Maxim)
Posts: 657


May Orthodoxy become our orthopraxis


WWW
« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2009, 12:54:12 AM »

Witty reply… but this subject isn’t exactly a laughing matter.

Idle speculation then?


Idle, perhaps, to those who have not personally been influenced by “alien” abduction and open demonic possession.  Until you’ve tangibly had your world rocked by these encounters, Sci-Fi movies that feature intelligent alien species seem like harmless entertainment.  But after you’ve had to come face to face with the reality that there are countless people having real encounters with “aliens” – encounters which can quickly lead a person to spiritual death – all these Hollywood block-busters are seen to be playing a vital role in shifting and reshaping humanity’s perspective and attitude towards the idea of being contacted by alien life-forms… making the idea more and more appealing that perhaps some other intelligent life from another world will come and save humanity from its problems.  The world has rejected Christ, but it eagerly awaits the arrival of false messiahs, led by the antichrist.
Logged

"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."
-St. Athanasius (†444)

Pray for Orthodox Unity

"Behold the light of our Agreed Statement on Christology"
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state04.html
Bogoliubtsy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,268



« Reply #68 on: March 25, 2009, 10:18:11 AM »

Witty reply… but this subject isn’t exactly a laughing matter.

Idle speculation then?


Idle, perhaps, to those who have not personally been influenced by “alien” abduction and open demonic possession.  Until you’ve tangibly had your world rocked by these encounters, Sci-Fi movies that feature intelligent alien species seem like harmless entertainment.  But after you’ve had to come face to face with the reality that there are countless people having real encounters with “aliens” – encounters which can quickly lead a person to spiritual death – all these Hollywood block-busters are seen to be playing a vital role in shifting and reshaping humanity’s perspective and attitude towards the idea of being contacted by alien life-forms… making the idea more and more appealing that perhaps some other intelligent life from another world will come and save humanity from its problems.  The world has rejected Christ, but it eagerly awaits the arrival of false messiahs, led by the antichrist.


Do you personally know people who claim to have been abducted by aliens? I don't.
Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #69 on: March 25, 2009, 01:14:22 PM »

It seems that my question was answered then. Mankind's Fall tainted the entire universe. If this is true, then all life in the universe, even "real" aliens would be tainted by our fall. Or do some here think, perhaps, that those from other planets are not subject to death/decay?
Logged
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #70 on: March 25, 2009, 01:15:50 PM »

Do you personally know people who claim to have been abducted by aliens? I don't.
What does that matter? Seriously? Abduction cases are not valid unless we, or someone we know have experienced them?
Logged
Bogoliubtsy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,268



« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2009, 02:06:21 PM »

Do you personally know people who claim to have been abducted by aliens? I don't.
What does that matter? Seriously? Abduction cases are not valid unless we, or someone we know have experienced them?

Seraphim seems to present abductions as if they're common happenings- an issue worth investigating so we can protect  ourselves from demons when the aliens finally are revealed as demonic entities bent on changing the focus of our worship. Since I doubt he, or anyone here, has ever had an alien encounter of this kind, why is this "issue", experienced by none of us and most likely no one we will ever know, being presented as so darn serious? The conclusions he (and you) are drawing are based totally on conjecture and scant "facts" - facts that really amount to close to nothing yet are interpreted with absolute authority to draw conclusions about aliens that seem far fetched considering the "evidence".

Since roughly 4% of the entire world is even nominally Orthodox (maybe half that at best even attend church at all), why the fear of some great apostasy or betrayal of the faith brought on by aliens who want to deceive us? We've done enough deceiving of ourselves and there are so few Orthodox in the world that to me it makes much greater sense to concentrate on the issues why people here, now, ON EARTH, who do not experience alien abductions (99.999999999999% of us) are not Orthodox or have left the faith. That seems a more pressing issue than alien seduction.
Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2009, 02:17:06 PM »

Do you personally know people who claim to have been abducted by aliens? I don't.
What does that matter? Seriously? Abduction cases are not valid unless we, or someone we know have experienced them?

Seraphim seems to present abductions as if they're common happenings- an issue worth investigating so we can protect  ourselves from demons when the aliens finally are revealed as demonic entities bent on changing the focus of our worship. Since I doubt he, or anyone here, has ever had an alien encounter of this kind, why is this "issue", experienced by none of us and most likely no one we will ever know, being presented as so darn serious? The conclusions he (and you) are drawing are based totally on conjecture and scant "facts" - facts that really amount to close to nothing yet are interpreted with absolute authority to draw conclusions about aliens that seem far fetched considering the "evidence".

Since roughly 4% of the entire world is even nominally Orthodox (maybe half that at best even attend church at all), why the fear of some great apostasy or betrayal of the faith brought on by aliens who want to deceive us? We've done enough deceiving of ourselves and there are so few Orthodox in the world that to me it makes much greater sense to concentrate on the issues why people here, now, ON EARTH, who do not experience alien abductions (99.999999999999% of us) are not Orthodox or have left the faith. That seems a more pressing issue than alien seduction.
The fact is millions of people (even in third world countries), are experiencing "alien" phenomenon. The facts are no longer scant, you just don't want to look for them. Do you know anyone that was possessed by a demon? Or has seen a demon/talked to one? This seems to be the logic you are using, and you can see where it goes. I am absolutely sure there are quite a few cases of sightings/abductions that are completely and totally FALSE. Does this mean that all cases are? I'm not so willing to say so.
Logged
Bogoliubtsy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,268



« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2009, 02:22:30 PM »

Do you personally know people who claim to have been abducted by aliens? I don't.
What does that matter? Seriously? Abduction cases are not valid unless we, or someone we know have experienced them?

Seraphim seems to present abductions as if they're common happenings- an issue worth investigating so we can protect  ourselves from demons when the aliens finally are revealed as demonic entities bent on changing the focus of our worship. Since I doubt he, or anyone here, has ever had an alien encounter of this kind, why is this "issue", experienced by none of us and most likely no one we will ever know, being presented as so darn serious? The conclusions he (and you) are drawing are based totally on conjecture and scant "facts" - facts that really amount to close to nothing yet are interpreted with absolute authority to draw conclusions about aliens that seem far fetched considering the "evidence".

Since roughly 4% of the entire world is even nominally Orthodox (maybe half that at best even attend church at all), why the fear of some great apostasy or betrayal of the faith brought on by aliens who want to deceive us? We've done enough deceiving of ourselves and there are so few Orthodox in the world that to me it makes much greater sense to concentrate on the issues why people here, now, ON EARTH, who do not experience alien abductions (99.999999999999% of us) are not Orthodox or have left the faith. That seems a more pressing issue than alien seduction.
The fact is millions of people (even in third world countries), are experiencing "alien" phenomenon. The facts are no longer scant, you just don't want to look for them. Do you know anyone that was possessed by a demon? Or has seen a demon/talked to one? This seems to be the logic you are using, and you can see where it goes. I am absolutely sure there are quite a few cases of sightings/abductions that are completely and totally FALSE. Does this mean that all cases are? I'm not so willing to say so.

Get back to me if you ever hear your priest give a sermon about it.  Wink
Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2009, 02:25:16 PM »

Get back to me if you ever hear your priest give a sermon about it.  Wink
Oh, come on! Cheesy
Logged
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,531


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2009, 02:29:38 PM »

To clarify: there are millions of reported extraterrestrial encounters worldwide.  Some of which have been hard scientists. 


However, that does not mean that they are from "Other Planets" . I think the possability of extra dimensional existence is another explanation.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #76 on: March 25, 2009, 03:13:28 PM »

This universe and the forms in it are unique and change is of the very essence of creation and not a product of the fall.

I love Father John, but I have an issue with what he says in red above. If creation was subjected to futility, as St. Paul says, would this not also include the universe? Or does our fall only effect the earth?

…how could any being, on any other planet, NOT be tainted by our fall?

True, it would seem that all within the Universe are tainted......at least it would seem that way. There is a sense of beauty in knowing that God will save the Kosmos.
Universal decay & the eventual Recapitulation of all things seem to compliment each other.


Quote
St. Symeon the New Theologian:

Adam was created with a body that was incorrupt, even though material and not yet spiritual, and he was placed by the Creator God as an immortal king over an incorrupt world, not only over Paradise, but also over the whole creation which was under the heavens… This whole creation in the beginning was incorrupt and was created by God in the manner of Paradise.

[St. Symeon makes it clear that man is on a level of leadership/intelligence unrivaled in all of creation.]

Quote
God knew that our race would multiply to an infinite, innumerable multitude on the earth.

[And here he further makes it clear that mankind as a whole is destined to remain “earth-bound” until the end of this age… i.e. the true Second Coming of Christ]


Quote
Through sin, the cosmos [the universe as a whole] became a place of death and corruption.
-St. Maximus the Confessor

Quote
At the fall the entire visible creation fell into corruption along with man.”
The Patristic Understanding of the Cosmos before the Fall, by Hieromonk Damascene
http://mihaicaragiu.blogspot.com/2008/12/patristic-understanding-of-cosmos.html




In order for any of us to survive in space, we would have to take the "Earth" with us. Men already traveled around the Earth in a space ship, and we already landed on the Moon, but in order for us to live outthere for the long term, we need to take the life(eco-system) of the Planet with us. We would have to mimic Earth, in order to live in space. So a spaceship would have to act like a mini-Earth.......or else we won't survive. There is nothing in the Faith that says we can't multiply the life of the Earth outside of the planet. There is nothing that says we can't have mini-Earths(spaceships/space stations) all over our solar system.

I'm not saying humanity as a whole will live in space. All I'm saying is, some men can live in space......but in order to do so, we will need to take and copy the eco-system of Earth.




JNORM888
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 03:23:06 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Starlight
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA (Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Posts: 1,537


« Reply #77 on: March 27, 2009, 02:01:47 AM »

Seraphim, you are referring to a higher status of humans. But the ETs (if they exist) also can be considered a form of human life, and therefore, they can possess human intelligence.


Could you please provide some Patristic literature to validate such claims?


First and foremost, I am somewhat moderately sceptical about an existence of ETs per se. Secondly, this issue does not seem to me to be a strictly theological subject. Instead, this is about possible habitation of other planets.

In order to operate a space vehicle, someone needs to possess an adequate intelligence.

Seraphim, would you please clarify, do you consider that some cases of contacts with aliens may be demonic in nature, or do you believe that all reported contacts with aliens are contacts with demons?
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #78 on: March 27, 2009, 02:21:56 AM »

To clarify: there are millions of reported extraterrestrial encounters worldwide.  Some of which have been hard scientists. 


However, that does not mean that they are from "Other Planets" . I think the possability of extra dimensional existence is another explanation.

Chuckling, hard....I often pondered these "ETs" being US, from our own future. After all, what other INTELLIGENT folk would want to study/visit us? Then I go have some coffee and sober up some.  Cheesy
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,369



« Reply #79 on: March 27, 2009, 05:57:34 PM »

I would have to say that the supposed Alien life that is, and has been visiting us, is not from another planet. If they are from another world, why not finally touch down at the White House Lawn?

How would they know anything about the White House?  Considering what Earth looks like from Space at night, there are brighter/more populous places to go.  Granted in the classic version of "The Day the Earth Stood Still" the saucer did land in Washington DC. 

Quote
Why must they all exist in darkness and shadows? Is there any case of alien abduction where the abductee loved the experience? I haven't seen one. Only after repeated abductions do some begin to just "accept" what is happening, and listen to their "visitors".

You know of persons who have been "abducted" more then once?

Quote
It seems to me, and others that study this phenomenon, that these abductions are meant to mentally, emotionally, and spiritually change people. I agree with Seraphim. This modern/not-so-modern experience of aliens is demonic.

Or it could be imaginary.  What solid proof do you know of that confirms such an abduction?

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,369



« Reply #80 on: March 27, 2009, 06:14:13 PM »

To clarify: there are millions of reported extraterrestrial encounters worldwide.  Some of which have been hard scientists. 

Millions?  Would you please give some names of "hard scientists" who have been abducted or had encounters?


Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Bogoliubtsy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,268



« Reply #81 on: March 27, 2009, 07:56:33 PM »

To clarify: there are millions of reported extraterrestrial encounters worldwide.  Some of which have been hard scientists. 

Millions?  Would you please give some names of "hard scientists" who have been abducted or had encounters?




This was actually Marc quoting Seraphim. I asked for these cases as well- nothing presented yet.
Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,531


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2009, 12:00:28 AM »

To clarify: there are millions of reported extraterrestrial encounters worldwide.  Some of which have been hard scientists. 


However, that does not mean that they are from "Other Planets" . I think the possability of extra dimensional existence is another explanation.

Chuckling, hard....I often pondered these "ETs" being US, from our own future. After all, what other INTELLIGENT folk would want to study/visit us? Then I go have some coffee and sober up some.  Cheesy

It's not that they are " us " but rather they are from " here ".

There is a famous Japanese Woodblock of the Buddhist Prophet Nichiren depicting the night after he narrowly escaped beheading by the authorities. Just as the executioner lifted his sword a giant fire ball fell from the sky and scared them enough to decide not to carry out the beheading. The next night he was held prisoner awaiting exile to Sado Island. The wood block shows what we would all today recognize as a 'saucer' hovering above a plumb tree. The wood block clearly shows two beings sitting inside of it and Nichiren talking to them. The guards had their faces in the dirt.  The year was, as I recall, sometime around 1284.

When Nichiren wrote about the incident later on, he identified the beings inside the craft as "Bodhisattva's" which roughly corresponds to Angelic beings in our parlance or at least other dimensional beings that are around to help us.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,369



« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2009, 12:11:22 PM »

It's not that they are " us " but rather they are from " here ".

That is a theory that has not been proven to be true yet, it seems to me.

Quote
There is a famous Japanese Woodblock of the Buddhist Prophet Nichiren depicting the night after he narrowly escaped beheading by the authorities. Just as the executioner lifted his sword a giant fire ball fell from the sky and scared them enough to decide not to carry out the beheading. The next night he was held prisoner awaiting exile to Sado Island. The wood block shows what we would all today recognize as a 'saucer' hovering above a plumb tree. The wood block clearly shows two beings sitting inside of it and Nichiren talking to them. The guards had their faces in the dirt.  The year was, as I recall, sometime around 1284.

Could you please provide a link to this picture?  I recall seeing similar scenes and the "saucer" in them has been a lotus flower, which has significance in Buddhism, so I would be interested to see if the depiction you describe is the same.  The Lotus is also important in this case because this person promoted the "Lotus Sutra".  Also, Nichiren lived from 1222 to 1282 and the attempted beheading was in 1271.  Here is a link to a biography of Nichiren  http://www.myokan-ko.net/menu/eds.htm

Quote
When Nichiren wrote about the incident later on, he identified the beings inside the craft as "Bodhisattva's" which roughly corresponds to Angelic beings in our parlance or at least other dimensional beings that are around to help us.

I don't know about "other dimensional beings".  Bodhisattava means "enlightened being" and refers to "a being that compassionately refrains from entering nirvana in order to save others and is worshipped as a deity in Mahayana Buddhism".  The definition is from Merriam-Webster. That is not the same as extra-terrestrials.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,531


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2009, 01:01:23 PM »

It's not that they are " us " but rather they are from " here ".

That is a theory that has not been prov en to be true yet, it seems to me.

Quote
There is a famous Japanese Woodblock of the Buddhist Prophet Nichiren depicting the night after he narrowly escaped beheading by the authorities. Just as the executioner lifted his sword a giant fire ball fell from the sky and scared them enough to decide not to carry out the beheading. The next night he was held prisoner awaiting exile to Sado Island. The wood block shows what we would all today recognize as a 'saucer' hovering above a plumb tree. The wood block clearly shows two beings sitting inside of it and Nichiren talking to them. The guards had their faces in the dirt.  The year was, as I recall, sometime around 1284.

Could you please provide a link to this picture?  I recall seeing similar scenes and the "saucer" in them has been a lotus flower, which has significance in Buddhism, so I would be interested to see if the depiction you describe is the same.  The Lotus is also important in this case because this person promoted the "Lotus Sutra".  Also, Nichiren lived from 1222 to 1282 and the attempted beheading was in 1271.  Here is a link to a biography of Nichiren  http://www.myokan-ko.net/menu/eds.htm

Quote
When Nichiren wrote about the incident later on, he identified the beings inside the craft as "Bodhisattva's" which roughly corresponds to Angelic beings in our parlance or at least other dimensional beings that are around to help us.

I don't know about "other dimensional beings".  Bodhisattva means "enlightened being" and refers to "a being that compassionately refrains from entering nirvana in order to save others and is worshipped as a deity in Mahayana Buddhism".  The definition is from Merriam-Webster. That is not the same as extra-terrestrials.

Ebor

Well of course extra dimensional life has not been proven. Neither has life on other planets.

But extra dimensional life is far more in concert with Christian ( and other religions) World View. We believe  in the continued existence of the dead, in demonic and angelic entities etc etc.

  The Wood block is reprinted in a book by a Rev. T.Kubota and translated by H. G. Lamont and is published by the Kempon Hokke Shu ( a sect of Nichiren Buddhism. I think it is called "The Doctrine of Nichiren Shonin" but I may have it confused with another book by Kubota. I am going out of town starting tomarrow and back on Thursday and will look for it when I get back. Feel free to Goggle around yourself and find it . I would also try the "Nichiren Coffee House" which has lots of Buddhist on-line resources.
There is no possability of the saucer being a depiction of a Lotus Flower. It is not vague at all. It is a Saucer by any stretch of the imagination with two little people sitting inside of it.

There is also a letter penned by Nichiren himself describing the incident. I have seen a reliable copy. He said two Bodhisattva's came down with a great wind and hung (hovered) above a plumb tree. I believe the document still exists in the original and in early copies. The main stream Nichiren Groups are pop health wealth and happiness cults and don't like to talk about this incident too much. You must go to the more authentic Nichiren Groups such as Kempon Hokke and Nichiren Shu who are more scholarly.. The document is also printed in the Showa Teihon Ibun ( the complete compilation of Nichiren's writings).
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,369



« Reply #85 on: March 29, 2009, 01:07:23 PM »

Thank you for the information.  I have not found this particular picture yet.  One question that occurs to me is when the picture was made and by whom?  Another thought is that there are round cushions sometimes used in Japan.  So a "saucer" is not necessarily be a stereotypical "flying saucer" as in the movies.

I have no difficulty in taking Nichiren's account of an incident as what he himself experienced.  But that does not mean that the beings in his vision or whatever it was are necessarily corporeal as are human beings and any theoretical sentients from another planet. 

I have no difficulty in believing in the existence of, as you wrote, "extra dimensional life" as a Christian along with life that is corporeal as are human beings on Earth. 

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Byzantine2008
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 280



« Reply #86 on: March 29, 2009, 04:42:41 PM »

To clarify: there are millions of reported extraterrestrial encounters worldwide.  Some of which have been hard scientists. 

Millions?  Would you please give some names of "hard scientists" who have been abducted or had encounters?




I would be interested to read about their experiences...

 Wink
Logged

Let your will be done O Lord Jesus Christ through the intercession of you All Pure Mother and all the saints!
_Seraphim_
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Diocese of Western America (under His Grace Bishop Maxim)
Posts: 657


May Orthodoxy become our orthopraxis


WWW
« Reply #87 on: March 29, 2009, 10:38:37 PM »

Millions?  Would you please give some names of "hard scientists" who have been abducted or had encounters?

I would be interested to read about their experiences...
 Wink

I asked for these cases as well- nothing presented yet.


I gave the name of a hard scientist who observed scores of people first-hand while they were encountering other-worldly visitors during an official 5-year study sponsored and funded by the U.S. government.  The fact that this post isn’t even being acknowledged on this thread causes me to doubt the presence of any genuine inquiry on this subject, but rather a desire for endless debate… of which I will not be a part.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2009, 10:57:28 PM by _Seraphim_ » Logged

"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."
-St. Athanasius (†444)

Pray for Orthodox Unity

"Behold the light of our Agreed Statement on Christology"
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state04.html
_Seraphim_
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Diocese of Western America (under His Grace Bishop Maxim)
Posts: 657


May Orthodoxy become our orthopraxis


WWW
« Reply #88 on: March 29, 2009, 10:40:48 PM »

Do you personally know people who claim to have been abducted by aliens? I don't.


I usually never delve into such parts of my personal history, but such circumstances as this force me to speak of things which I have willingly long ago pushed far into the back of my memory.  In answer to your question: YES.  I have both first and second hand experience of this phenomenon. 

The experience of your soul being ripped from your body and dangling like a blade of grass in a galaxy-sized vacuum tube as myriads of malicious evil beings ominously await your arrival with horrific shrieks of predatory anticipation… such an experience is not something one easily forgets… especially when you don’t know how to interpret the phenomenon.  And it is further confusing to ask others about your experience, and have literally hundreds of people reply by saying they’ve experienced the same type of encounters for many years… and explain your experience as “contact with the superior species/beings of the universe” etc. 

When asking about the “evil and ominous” sensation accompanied by the presence of the “beings,” the answer is that most people aren’t “evolved” enough to fully interact with the “energy” of the beings… but they offer complete assurance that if we willingly cooperate with the beings each “visitation” will be increasingly more pleasing and “enlightening”… “exponentially increasing our evolution.”


I speak from the experience of myself and countless others.  What/Who on earth (or from elsewhere) do you suppose would psychically/spiritually contact people by the millions and make such claims of exalted positions in the universe?  Surely not the holy angelic hosts who completely reject all glory given to them… pointing with complete and utter reverence towards the One and All-Holy Trinity as the Lord and God of all creation, both visible and invisible.  No, it is Satan, and all his minions who are envious of mankind’s position of potential supremacy in creation, both visible and invisible.

Satan, in his envy, strove to:

ascend above the tops of the clouds” and make himself “like the Most High."
But instead he was “brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.”
(Isaiah 14:14-15)


Who else but Satan and his followers would dare to contact mankind with the message that humanity isn’t the most (potentially) exalted creation of God?… much less proclaim that there isn’t even an actual omnipotent, personal Creator/God?
Logged

"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."
-St. Athanasius (†444)

Pray for Orthodox Unity

"Behold the light of our Agreed Statement on Christology"
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state04.html
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,369



« Reply #89 on: March 30, 2009, 12:46:27 AM »

I gave the name of a hard scientist who observed scores of people first-hand while they were encountering other-worldly visitors during an official 5-year study sponsored and funded by the U.S. government. 

I had missed that post by not being here for a few days.  I have found it and looked up Dr. Rick Strassman. He is a medical doctor who has conducted research on hallucinogenic drugs, not alien abductions.  Yes, he wrote a book called DMT: The Spirit Molecule which is an hallucinogen.  that is not the same thing as persons or incidents of physical encounters/abductions.  What the subjects of Dr. Strassman's studies experienced were inside their minds. So Dr. Strassman's observations are not of "other-worldly visitors" same sense as 'flying saucers' or extra-terrestrial physical individual entities, things that might be photographed or leave physical traces.

Quote
The fact that this post isn’t even being acknowledged on this thread causes me to doubt the presence of any genuine inquiry on this subject, but rather a desire for endless debate… of which I will not be a part.

For my part, I don't want "endless debate". I am asking for real names and solid data of purported encounters of the "third  or fourth Kind"

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Tags: Beam me up Scotty No intelligent life here 
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.196 seconds with 72 queries.