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Author Topic: Life on other planets?  (Read 9311 times) Average Rating: 0
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Byzantine2008
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« on: March 18, 2009, 07:05:51 PM »

If life forms similar to human beings were discovered within our universe, would that change or have any bearings on the Christian Orthodox Faith?

I sometimes become very intrigued by the vastness of our universe which leads me to think that extra terrestrial life has existence somewhere.

 Huh

Is it wrong for me to think this way?
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« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2009, 07:13:30 PM »

This is something I've also struggled with. The idea that every man now has to live in a fallen world because man sinned is one thing, and something that I find hard to swallow, but to extend that to life forms on other planets...? It just seems plain silly, if such beings do actually exist.
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« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2009, 11:21:46 PM »

I don't believe it is wrong to think that way.  I believe there must be other forms of intelligent life within the Universe.  But, I am not sure about the answer to your first question, unfortunately.
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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2009, 11:41:14 PM »

No, it's not wrong.  No, I don't think it will alter our faith one bit.

No, I don't think it's good to expend too much mental capital on this question, unless you either (a) have seen living beings from other planet(s), or (b) will see such beings during your lifetime.
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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2009, 11:42:30 PM »

Or are a being from another world... *cue X-files music*
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« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2009, 12:03:46 AM »

This idea is one that several Science Fiction authors have worked on. The first one that comes to mind is A Case of Conscience by James Blish 1958


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« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2009, 11:15:28 AM »

This idea is one that several Science Fiction authors have worked on. The first one that comes to mind is A Case of Conscience by James Blish 1958

I remember reading that book as a teenager.  A Roman Catholic priest exorcices an entire planet.   I think my young mind was too theologically undeveloped to really know everything that Blish was trying to say.
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« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2009, 11:26:17 AM »

“All Planets the Same: Religion’s Response to Space Life V,”
Rev. John S. Romanides, PhD., The Boston Globe, April 8, 1965, page 18.

I can foresee no way in which the teachings of the Orthodox Christian tradition could be affected by the discovery of intelligent beings on another planet. Some of my colleagues feel that even a discussion of the consequences of such a possibility is in itself a waste of time for serious theology and borders on the fringes of foolishness.

I am tempted to agree with them for several reasons.

As I understand the problem, the discovery of intelligent life on another planet would raise questions concerning traditional Roman Catholic and Protestant teachings regarding creation, the fall, man as the image of God, redemption and Biblical inerrancy.

First one should point out that in contrast to the traditions deriving from Latin Christianity, Greek Christianity never had a fundamentalist or literalist understanding of Biblical inspiration and was never committed to the inerrancy of scripture in matters concerning the structure of the universe and life in it. In this regard some modern attempts at de-mything the Bible are interesting and at times amuzing [sic].

Since the very first centuries of Christianity, theologians of the Greek tradition did not believe, as did the Latins, that humanity was created in a state of perfection from which it fell. Rather the Orthodox always believed that man [was] created imperfect, or at a low level of perfection, with the destiny of evolving to higher levels of perfection.

The fall of each man, therefore, entails a failure to reach perfection, rather than any collective fall from perfection.

Also spiritual evolution does not end in a static beatific vision. It is a never ending process which will go on even into eternity.

Also Orthodox Christianity, like Judaism, never knew the Latin and Protestant doctrine of original sin as an inherited Adamic guilt putting all humanity under a divine wrath which was supposedly satisfied by the death of Christ.

Thus the solidarity of the human race in Adamic guilt and the need for satisfaction of divine justice in order to avoid hell are unknown in the Greek Fathers.

This means that the interdependance [sic] and solidarity of creation and its need for redemption and perfection are seen in a different light.

The Orthodox believe that all creation is destined to share in the glory of God. Both damned and glorified will be saved. In other words both will have vision of God in his uncreated glory, with the difference that for the unjust this same uncreated glory of God will be the eternal fires of hell.

God is light for those who learn to love Him and a consuming fire for those who will not. God has no positive intent to punish.

For those not properly prepared, to see God is a cleansing experience, but one which does not move eternally toward higher reaches of perfection.

In contrast, hell is a static state of perfection somewhat similar to Platonic bliss.

In view of this the Orthodox never saw in the Bible any three story universe with a hell of created fire underneath the earth and a heaven beyond the stars.

For the Orthodox discovery of intelligent life on another planet would raise the question of how far advanced these beings are in their love and preparation for divine glory.

As on this planet, so on any other, the fact that one may have not as yet learned about the Lord of Glory of the Old and New Testament, does not mean that he is automatically condemned to hell, just as one who believes in Christ is not automatically destined to be involved in the eternal movement toward perfection.

It is also important to bear in mind that the Greek Fathers of the Church maintain that the soul of man is part of material creation, although a high form of it, and by nature mortal.

Only God is purely immaterial.

Life beyond death is not due to the nature of man but to the will of God. Thus man is not strictly speaking the image of God. Only the Lord of Glory, or the Angel of the Lord of Old and New Testament revelation is the image of God.

Man was created according to the image of God, which means that his destiny is to become like Christ who is the Incarnate Image of God.

Thus the possibility of intelligent beings on another planet being images of God as men on earth are supposed to be is not even a valid question from an Orthodox point of view.

Finally one could point out that the Orthodox Fathers rejected the Platonic belief in immutable archetypes of which this world of change is a poor copy.

This universe and the forms in it are unique and change is of the very essence of creation and not a product of the fall.

Furthermore the categories of change, motion and history belong to the eternal dimensions of salvation-history and are not to be discard[ed] in some kind of eternal bliss.

Thus the existence of intelligent life on another planet behind or way ahead of us in intellectual and spiritual attainment will change little in the traditional beliefs of Orthodox Christianity.
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« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2009, 11:34:43 AM »

This idea is one that several Science Fiction authors have worked on. The first one that comes to mind is A Case of Conscience by James Blish 1958
Also C.S. Lewis' Space Trilogy: Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, That Hideous Strength. This issue was one of the chief reasons he wrote the series, and it remains one of his outstanding works.
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« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2009, 03:18:36 PM »

I remember reading a Star Trek: Next Generation novel, and it involved a Roman Catholic nun evangelizing a planet.
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« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2009, 04:44:54 PM »

In Genesis, everything LIVING (i.e. plants, animals, humans) are only created ON EARTH.  There is no mention whatsoever of ANYthing living being placed beyond the realm of earth.  The only things created in the heavens were the stars, whose sole purpose is to serve as indicators of day/night and seasons ON EARTH.

And the thing is, any speculation about life on other plants is usually specifically about INTELLIGENT life on other planets… which implies an intelligence on par with (or greater than) humanity.  The Bible is extremely clear that man is the most supreme being in all of creation.  The only entities higher than us are the angels.

So, if any intelligent life not of earth comes for a visit, rest assured they are either angels or demons.  And considering that contemporary society is overwhelmingly atheist in its worldview, it is a safe assumption that any visitors “from outer space” are simply demons in “alien” / “intelligent life” disguise.

Hence the reason even saints from over a millennia ago always assumed any “intelligent life” not from earth who came for a visit was unquestionably demonic.
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« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2009, 04:49:17 PM »

In Genesis, everything LIVING (i.e. plants, animals, humans) are only created ON EARTH.  There is no mention whatsoever of ANYthing living being placed beyond the realm of earth.  The only things created in the heavens were the stars, whose sole purpose is to serve as indicators of day/night and seasons ON EARTH.

And the thing is, any speculation about life on other plants is usually specifically about INTELLIGENT life on other planets… which implies an intelligence on par with (or greater than) humanity.  The Bible is extremely clear that man is the most supreme being in all of creation.  The only entities higher than us are the angels.

So, if any intelligent life not of earth comes for a visit, rest assured they are either angels or demons.  And considering that contemporary society is overwhelmingly atheist in its worldview, it is a safe assumption that any visitors “from outer space” are simply demons in “alien” / “intelligent life” disguise.

Hence the reason even saints from over a millennia ago always assumed any “intelligent life” not from earth who came for a visit was unquestionably demonic.


There is also the possibility that the author of Genesis, being a human being, could not have fathomed the possibility of planets existing beyond ours. Why, exactly, would demons have to travel to us on space ships if they are spiritual in nature? Can't they just appear?
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« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2009, 05:03:42 PM »

There is no mention of lots of things in Genesis, but that does not mean that they don't exist. Viruses, the Japanese and Hawaiian Islands and more...

To assert that intelligent beings from another planet are automatically "demonic" is working from incomplete information, imo
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« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2009, 05:37:38 PM »

There is also the possibility that the author of Genesis, being a human being, could not have fathomed the possibility of planets existing beyond ours.

If he could fathom an Uncreated Creator creating creation… existence being formed out of non-existence, it doesn’t seem likely there’s much else you could have really surprised him with.

Why, exactly, would demons have to travel to us on space ships if they are spiritual in nature? Can't they just appear?

Who says they always come in spaceships?  Besides, the main goal in everything they do is DECEPTION.  Pretending like they need a vehicle implies they are supposedly physical entities, which can lessen people’s inhibitions and suspicions against them… voila: deception.
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« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2009, 05:39:23 PM »

There is no mention of lots of things in Genesis, but that does not mean that they don't exist.

Um, yeah… that’s an open window to whatever you want it to be.
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« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2009, 06:21:13 PM »

There is also the possibility that the author of Genesis, being a human being, could not have fathomed the possibility of planets existing beyond ours.

If he could fathom an Uncreated Creator creating creation… existence being formed out of non-existence, it doesn’t seem likely there’s much else you could have really surprised him with.

Why, exactly, would demons have to travel to us on space ships if they are spiritual in nature? Can't they just appear?

Who says they always come in spaceships?  Besides, the main goal in everything they do is DECEPTION.  Pretending like they need a vehicle implies they are supposedly physical entities, which can lessen people’s inhibitions and suspicions against them… voila: deception.

Every primitive society imagined gods.
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« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2009, 07:12:26 PM »

Quote
And considering that contemporary society is overwhelmingly atheist in its worldview

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2009, 07:15:44 PM »

Every primitive society imagined gods.


All the gods of the pagans are demons.
Psalm 95:5
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« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2009, 07:25:53 PM »

Quote
And considering that contemporary society is overwhelmingly atheist in its worldview

 Roll Eyes


If have a question, please ask.  If you have something to actually contribute to the discussion, please share.
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« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2009, 08:08:23 PM »

There is also the possibility that the author of Genesis, being a human being, could not have fathomed the possibility of planets existing beyond ours.

If he could fathom an Uncreated Creator creating creation… existence being formed out of non-existence, it doesn’t seem likely there’s much else you could have really surprised him with.

Why, exactly, would demons have to travel to us on space ships if they are spiritual in nature? Can't they just appear?

Who says they always come in spaceships?  Besides, the main goal in everything they do is DECEPTION.  Pretending like they need a vehicle implies they are supposedly physical entities, which can lessen people’s inhibitions and suspicions against them… voila: deception.

Perhaps God felt we had no need to know of extraterrestrial life??
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« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2009, 08:41:04 PM »

If life forms similar to human beings were discovered within our universe, would that change or have any bearings on the Christian Orthodox Faith?

I sometimes become very intrigued by the vastness of our universe which leads me to think that extra terrestrial life has existence somewhere.

 Huh

Is it wrong for me to think this way?

No change, we already know that other life forms exist in the Created realm.......both seen and unseen.


I know that Seventhday Adventists believe that life exist on other worlds(planets). The same is true for other Protestant groups......like some Prespyterians.

I don't see a problem with the idea of life on other planets.

God put us on this planet for a reason, we are pretty much isolated from the rest of the galaxy......I think this was for a reason.

In our new bodies, there will be no need to travel on space ships. We will be able to do so in our new bodies. Jesus went up into the Heavens......with two Angels........he didn't need a space ship to travel. Nor do Angels need a spaceship to travel.......so yes, I believe in other life forms in the Universe......both seen and unseen.







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« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2009, 09:00:55 PM »

In Genesis, everything LIVING (i.e. plants, animals, humans) are only created ON EARTH.  There is no mention whatsoever of ANYthing living being placed beyond the realm of earth.  The only things created in the heavens were the stars, whose sole purpose is to serve as indicators of day/night and seasons ON EARTH.

And the thing is, any speculation about life on other plants is usually specifically about INTELLIGENT life on other planets… which implies an intelligence on par with (or greater than) humanity.  The Bible is extremely clear that man is the most supreme being in all of creation.  The only entities higher than us are the angels.

So, if any intelligent life not of earth comes for a visit, rest assured they are either angels or demons.  And considering that contemporary society is overwhelmingly atheist in its worldview, it is a safe assumption that any visitors “from outer space” are simply demons in “alien” / “intelligent life” disguise.

Hence the reason even saints from over a millennia ago always assumed any “intelligent life” not from earth who came for a visit was unquestionably demonic.


There is also the possibility that the author of Genesis, being a human being, could not have fathomed the possibility of planets existing beyond ours. Why, exactly, would demons have to travel to us on space ships if they are spiritual in nature? Can't they just appear?


I disagree. When you read the book of Enoch (which is pretty much a commentary to Genesis). But when you read the book of Enoch....you kind of get the feeling that they did know about that.





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« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2009, 09:06:34 PM »

I don't believe there is intelligent life anywhere in the universe.  Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2009, 09:11:38 PM »

I don't believe there is intelligent life anywhere in the universe.  Smiley


It's ok. You had christians in the past believed in a flat Earth, and you had christians in the past that didn't believe in a flat Earth.

You had Christians in the past that believed no human life was in the America's......and you had Christians in the past that did believe human life existed where we are.


You had christians in the past that believed the Sun revolved around the Earth. And you had Christians in the past that believed the Earth Revolved around the Sun.


It's ok, because you will always have Christians on both sides of the issue.


Angels are part of the Natural order (created Order) therefore they are part of our Universe.





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« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2009, 10:38:59 PM »

I don't believe there is intelligent life anywhere in the universe.  Smiley

 Wink
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« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2009, 10:40:35 PM »

Every primitive society imagined gods.


All the gods of the pagans are demons.
Psalm 95:5


 Exodus 21:17  "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

My point being- some of the material of the OT is contingent upon time and culture, while other parts are meant to convey a higher meaning  not meant to be taken literally.  To state that other intelligent life can not exist beyond our solar system because, according to your view, Genesis implies it, is to take a book of an essentially spiritual, higher meaning and hold it up as hard science, which it was never intended to be.
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« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2009, 11:29:27 AM »

I don't believe there is intelligent life anywhere in the universe.  Smiley


It's ok. You had christians in the past believed in a flat Earth, and you had christians in the past that didn't believe in a flat Earth.

You had Christians in the past that believed no human life was in the America's......and you had Christians in the past that did believe human life existed where we are.


You had christians in the past that believed the Sun revolved around the Earth. And you had Christians in the past that believed the Earth Revolved around the Sun.


It's ok, because you will always have Christians on both sides of the issue.


Angels are part of the Natural order (created Order) therefore they are part of our Universe.





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... Is joking...

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« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2009, 12:11:07 PM »


I think we have enough to worry about on our own planet.  Why look for more trouble outside of our solar system?

Discovering "new" planets seems silly when we don't even know what lies at the depths of our own oceans.

There is so much to learn and phathom in the here and now. 

Besides, nowhere does Christ refer to "other" beings.  Not in any parables, nor sayings.

..if God had meant for us to know about them (if they exist) then He would have said something.

Maybe it's none of our business, and we should look to better "ourselves" before we expand to other planets.



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« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2009, 12:42:31 PM »

Actually Christ does refer to His other flocks elsewhere. We assume, I guess, He means HERE.
There is a thread over on monachos forum on this "issue" that has raged for what seems years now. As I only spend about 4 minutes a week there reviewing posts, I ignore the entire thing. Now, the question comes to OC.net

As to "Life on other planets", the question can only be answered, so far, in mathematical probability.
1) It is possible we ARE alone, but with a very small degree of probability that this is so.
2) Likewise it is possible that we are alone by virtue of being the first; again, small probability, but possible as well.
3) It is possible for us to be the first, but not alone....
Until I meet "E.T" I won't fret over this artificial issue. IF I do meet "ET" I will find out if "ET" is a follower of the Way. If not, I'll give ET the Good News.  Smiley
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« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2009, 11:41:30 PM »

Actually Christ does refer to His other flocks elsewhere. We assume, I guess, He means HERE.
There is a thread over on mo nachos forum on this "issue" that has raged for what seems years now. As I only spend about 4 minutes a week there reviewing posts, I ignore the entire thing. Now, the question comes to OC.net

As to "Life on other planets", the question can only be answered, so far, in mathematical probability.
1) It is possible we ARE alone, but with a very small degree of probability that this is so.
2) Likewise it is possible that we are alone by virtue of being the first; again, small probability, but possible as well.
3) It is possible for us to be the first, but not alone....
Until I meet "E.T" I won't fret over this artificial issue. IF I do meet "ET" I will find out if "ET" is a follower of the Way. If not, I'll give ET the Good News.  Smiley


Seems to me that I had read somewhere that the assumption there is plentiful life throughout the Universe simply based on the math, may not be as solid as once thought.

It turns out that there is an extremely delicate and vastly complex combination of factors that allowed life to exist here on Earth. Even the presence of just one Moon circulating in just the right orbit (or not) is enough to make the difference between life or no life. Once all of the complexities are properly factored in, it may well be that this combination is utterly unrepeatable or at best there is intelligent life elsewhere in numbers few and very far between.

More and more I am tending to believe we are alone .
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« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2009, 02:48:31 PM »

There is no mention of lots of things in Genesis, but that does not mean that they don't exist.
Um, yeah… that’s an open window to whatever you want it to be.
No, it's an invitation to examine our universe and draw conclusions from our observations.  If we restrict our knowledge to only those things specifically mentioned in the Bible, we are destined to be extremely ignorant of God's creation.

Quote from: LizaSymonenko
Besides, nowhere does Christ refer to "other" beings.  Not in any parables, nor sayings.
..if God had meant for us to know about them (if they exist) then He would have said something.
Maybe it's none of our business, and we should look to better "ourselves" before we expand to other planets.
I disagree.  By this same logic, viruses are perhaps none of our business and we could conclude that if God had wanted us to know about them, He would have said something.  Even though he didn't, I'm quite comfortable believing that God is pleased that we know about them.
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« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2009, 10:50:45 PM »


I think we have enough to worry about on our own planet.  Why look for more trouble outside of our solar system?

Discovering "new" planets seems silly when we don't even know what lies at the depths of our own oceans.

I don't think any astrophysicists or astronomers are looking for "trouble" outside this solar system.  They are trying to learn more about the universe. Why would that be "silly"?  Some people investigate the seas, others land or physics or the skies or human beings and their physical functioning or diseases or any number of other things.  God gave human beings intelligence and imagination and curiosity and reason and ways to learn.  Why should it be limited?

Quote
..if God had meant for us to know about them (if they exist) then He would have said something.

God didn't mention a lot of things in the oceans in the Bible, should there, then, not be marine biologists and oceanographic studies?  ???He didn't mention lots of places and cultures that do exist here on Earth (like Australia and Native American Tribes etc.) but people learn about them. 

I'm sorry, but I don't understand why learning new things and research and inquiry somehow shouldn't be done. 

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« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2009, 10:54:52 PM »

There is no mention of lots of things in Genesis, but that does not mean that they don't exist.
Um, yeah… that’s an open window to whatever you want it to be.
No, it's an invitation to examine our universe and draw conclusions from our observations.  If we restrict our knowledge to only those things specifically mentioned in the Bible, we are destined to be extremely ignorant of God's creation.

I agree, Chrevbel, and I think that the question of any kind of life on other planets can be answered simply with "We don't know." because that's the truth from the present data.  I think that's an honest and reasonable answer.  Smiley  To state flatly that there isn't is making  a dogmatic answer and drawing a conclusion,  without any information to base it on.

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« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2009, 11:17:56 PM »

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if God had meant for us to know about them (if they exist) then He would have said something.

Yeah. Computers as well. Who needs those? If God had wanted us to know about them, he would have told us about them! And automobiles. The list is endless!
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« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2009, 10:34:05 PM »


I think we have enough to worry about on our own planet.  Why look for more trouble outside of our solar system?

Discovering "new" planets seems silly when we don't even know what lies at the depths of our own oceans.

There is so much to learn and phathom in the here and now. 

Besides, nowhere does Christ refer to "other" beings.  Not in any parables, nor sayings.

..if God had meant for us to know about them (if they exist) then He would have said something.

Maybe it's none of our business, and we should look to better "ourselves" before we expand to other planets.






To mine for oil/methane, gold, diamonds, silver, platnum, and all that other stuff that makes people crazy & go to war.

There would be less wars on earth if we started space colonies. But we would have more wars in space.


But if you are going to start a space colony then you would have to take the eco-system of the earth with you.....for we won't survive without trees, plants, fish, ants, spiders, bees, water, birds........ect. And you would have to have the thing rotate in order to create artificial gravity(the rotation speed will vary depending on the size of the colony, the bigger the colony the slower the speed, the smaller the colony the faster you must rotate in order to have the same type of gravity as earth), the colony would have to mimic the planet we came from......or else we won't survive.

The first groups that would have an interest in building a space colony would be christians, for the World is becoming more and more evil and more and more hostile.......everybody wants to kill us, so we leave and worship in space somewhere.

The second group to form colonies are merchants, and everyone that hates christians. They will try to follow us because they hate us. They will try to change us or kill us whereever we go. The merchants will try to make us work for them.

But moving to outerspace(in our solor system) would be no different from western Europe coming to the Americas.





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« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2009, 10:55:32 PM »

There is no mention of lots of things in Genesis, but that does not mean that they don't exist.
Um, yeah… that’s an open window to whatever you want it to be.
No, it's an invitation to examine our universe and draw conclusions from our observations.  If we restrict our knowledge to only those things specifically mentioned in the Bible, we are destined to be extremely ignorant of God's creation.

Quote from: LizaSymonenko
Besides, nowhere does Christ refer to "other" beings.  Not in any parables, nor sayings.
..if God had meant for us to know about them (if they exist) then He would have said something.
Maybe it's none of our business, and we should look to better "ourselves" before we expand to other planets.
I disagree.  By this same logic, viruses are perhaps none of our business and we could conclude that if God had wanted us to know about them, He would have said something.  Even though he didn't, I'm quite comfortable believing that God is pleased that we know about them.

Angels(watchers) are part of the natural world so we already know that other beings exist.  What we don't know is if other beings like us exist.

We know they don't in our solar system. And since our solor system is pretty far away from the next solor system........I would say that we are alone in this area. God put us way out here for a reason.

This solar system is ours so we should play in it. ......for we won't be going anywhere else(to another solar system) anytime soon.






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« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2009, 10:10:22 PM »

Perhaps God felt we had no need to know of extraterrestrial life??


extraterrestrial: life which does not originate from earth

Quote
“And there was war in heaven.  Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.  But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.  The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.  He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.”  (Revelation 12:7-9)

“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” (Luke 10:18)
“How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer…” (Isaiah 14:12)

“The LORD said to Satan, ‘Where have you come from?’  Satan answered the LORD, ‘From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it.’”  (Job 1:7)

“angels in heaven” (Matthew 18:10)
“angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30)
“angels in heaven” (Matthew 24:36)
“angels in heaven” (Mark 12:25)
“angels in heaven” (Mark 13:32)

“…a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.  (Genesis 28:12)
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« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2009, 10:11:01 PM »

I don't believe there is intelligent life anywhere in the universe.   Smiley

Witty reply… but this subject isn’t exactly a laughing matter.
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« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2009, 10:11:49 PM »

Exodus 21:17  "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

My point being- some of the material of the OT is contingent upon time and culture, while other parts are meant to convey a higher meaning  not meant to be taken literally.  To state that other intelligent life can not exist beyond our solar system because, according to your view, Genesis implies it, is to take a book of an essentially spiritual, higher meaning and hold it up as hard science, which it was never intended to be.

Over the last several decades, there have been millions of “contactees” (persons who claim to have experienced contact with extraterrestrials)… including a large number of “hard scientists.”   These people claim they were contacted by intelligent life/entities/beings from other planets/dimensions.   And these “beings” always communicate messages of a very philosophical/religious nature.  Their messages always discourage any belief in a single omnipotent Creator, and instead emphasize a variety of bizarre alternative explanations for the existence of mankind.  (One of the most common is: the aliens claim to have visited earth millions of years ago to perform an experiment in which they planted humans “seeds”… i.e. they “created” us.)

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“Some or many of the experiences, it may be, are the result of hoaxes or hallucinations; but it is simply impossible to dismiss all of the many millions of UFO reports in this way.  A great number of modern mediums and their spiritistic phenomena are also fraudulent; but mediumistic spiritism itself, when it is genuine, undeniably produces real “paranormal” phenomena under the action of demons.  UFO phenomena, having the same source, are no less real.”
-Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, by Fr Seraphim Rose
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« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2009, 10:15:44 PM »

Actually Christ does refer to His other flocks elsewhere. We assume, I guess, He means HERE.


Quote
I have brought You glory on earth by completing the work you gave Me to do.
(John 17:4)


As to "Life on other planets", the question can only be answered, so far, in mathematical probability.
1) It is possible we ARE alone, but with a very small degree of probability that this is so.


Seems to me that I had read somewhere that the assumption there is plentiful life throughout the Universe simply based on the math, may not be as solid as once thought.
It turns out that there is an extremely delicate and vastly complex combination of factors that allowed life to exist here on Earth. Even the presence of just one Moon circulating in just the right orbit (or not) is enough to make the difference between life or no life. Once all of the complexities are properly factored in, it may well be that this combination is utterly unrepeatable or at best there is intelligent life elsewhere in numbers few and very far between.
More and more I am tending to believe we are alone .

(thank you, Marc!)


2) Likewise it is possible that we are alone by virtue of being the first; again, small probability, but possible as well.


Quote
"[On the sixth day] God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, in Our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.’
By the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing.” 
(Genesis 1:26, 2:2)


3) It is possible for us to be the first, but not alone....
Until I meet "E.T" I won't fret over this artificial issue.


While you personally may not have met E.T. (and thus consider the issue to be “artificial”), there are certainly millions of people who claim to have experienced exactly such an encounter… and many of these people cannot escape or suppress these encounters even when they try.  To such people, this issue is anything but artificial.


IF I do meet "ET" I will find out if "ET" is a follower of the Way. If not, I'll give ET the Good News.  Smiley


Quote
The soul has three powers: first, the power of nourishment and growth; second, that of imagination and instinct; third, that of intelligence and intellect.  Plants share only in the first of these powers, animals share in the first and second only, and only men share in all three.
-St. Maximos the Confessor

How will any physical being in the universe, other than man, be able to understand and willfully accept the Good News?
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« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2009, 10:17:22 PM »

I think that the question of any kind of life on other planets can be answered simply with "We don't know." because that's the truth from the present data.

To entertain this question inevitably leads one to further ponder if humans will come into contact with these life-forms… otherwise the question is pointless and meaningless.  The fact is humans have not even stepped foot onto the nearest planet in our own solar system.  As of May of 2008, the farthest probe man has sent into space is 9.87 billion miles (14.72 light-hours) from the Sun… and we STILL haven’t found any other planets with life on them.  Its pretty obvious that any direct contact mankind may have with extraterrestrial life will not be initiated by us, but rather by INTELLIGENT extraterrestrial life… and Patristic literature makes it clear that mankind’s intelligence has no equal, rival, or superior in the physical universe.  Therefore, the only possible explanation of humans being visited by extraterrestrial life is: demonic deception.
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« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2009, 10:18:28 PM »

…it's an invitation to examine our universe and draw conclusions from our observations.

Provided we are submitting our observations to and screening our conclusions through the discernment of the Church.

By this same logic, viruses are perhaps none of our business and we could conclude that if God had wanted us to know about them, He would have said something... 
...If we restrict our knowledge to only those things specifically mentioned in the Bible, we are destined to be extremely ignorant of God's creation.


In regards to purely physical elements, yes… but every spiritual matter relevant to our salvation has been made known to us in the scriptures and Patristic writings.  The subject of “extraterrestrial” beings supposedly from other planets/galaxies who come to us and present a completely anti-Christian worldview is blatantly spiritual in essence.

Quote
“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.  But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!  As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!”
(Galatians 1:6-9)
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« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2009, 10:24:18 PM »

The Holy Fathers of the Church make it very clear that man is on a level of intelligence that he alone possesses.  Therefore, even if there does happen to be any life in the universe outside of earth, Patristic literature makes it very clear that none of these life-forms are anything higher than an animal.  If mankind still hasn’t successfully traveled to other planets, it is pretty clear that no animals ever will.  Therefore, any “visitors” we have from outer space cannot possibly be physical entities, which only leaves one alternative: they are angels… and because they deceptively make false claims about their origin: demons.


Quote
Level 1
—The soul is the life-force of the body, which keeps it unified and harmonious;
—It maintains nourishment, growth, and reproduction.
—This level is seen in man, animals, and plants.

Level 2
—The soul seeks whatever suits the nature of the body.
—The soul has memory, remembering what is has experienced through the senses (touch, sight, smell, etc.), and what is has learned through habit.
—This level is seen in man and animals.

Level 3
—The soul learns and remembers through observation (language, reading, writing, etc.), and not only through habit.
This is the level of reason and logical thought, and of music, poetry, eloquence.
—This level bears the mark of greatness.  Only humans are on this and subsequent levels.

Level 4
—The soul turns inward, seeking self-purification.
—There is recognition of the fear of death.
—The soul turns away from worldly things.
—The soul is aware of its state of purity vs. defilement.
—The battle between good and evil begins.
—The soul seeks universal love and goodness.

Level 5
—The soul is free of all corruption and sin;
—it possess utter joy and no fears;
—it advances towards God.

Level 6
—The soul focuses on God only;
—it possesses a clean heart and thoughts;
—it eliminates all attachments to corruptible things;
—it seeks the highest perfection and truth.

Level 7
—This is the dwelling-place to which the previous steps have led, everlasting peace and goodness.
—The soul truly understands the supreme reality of God’s truth, how “all things under the sun are vanity of vanities.”
—It apprehends the truth of the seedless incarnation of Jesus Christ, and of all the teachings of Mother Church.
—In its certainty of faith, it yearns for death as the greatest boon.

-Blessed Augustine, The Magnitude of thy Soul


Quote
Animals are said to be irrational, to lack reason.  Reason is the logical faculty in man by which observation and analysis of data leads to logical conclusions.  Animals were not given this ability, because they do not have free will.  Instead, they have heightened sense reactions… God compensated for the lack of reason in animals by endowing them with the superiority of their senses.

-Basil the Great


Quote
Throughout the Holy Scripture and the works of the Desert Fathers, animals are referred to as irrational or dumb.  These terms were never intended to be derogatory; they were used as terms of comparison between the natures of animals and men, to distinguish different and unique characteristics.
The mind is the guide and counselor of the soul.  God gave man and animals a soul, but only man was given freedom of will.  Animals were not given freedom, but God guides them with His mind. 

-Bishop Nikolai Velimirovic, The Prologue from Ochrid


Quote
As a rational being, man leads nature rather than being led by it.

-St. John Damasence,
quoted in A Handbook of Spiritual Counsel, by St. Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain


Quote
…when man again will be renewed and become spiritual, incorrupt and immortal, then also the whole creation, which had been subjected by God to man to serve him, will be delivered from this servitude, will be renewed together with him, and become incorrupt and as it were spiritual.  All this the All-Merciful God foreordained before the creation of the world.

-St. Symeon the New Theologian


Quote
The soul has three powers: first, the power of nourishment and growth; second, that of imagination and instinct; third, that of intelligence and intellect.  Plants share only in the first of these powers, animals share in the first and second only, and only men share in all three.

-St. Maximos the Confessor
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« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2009, 10:26:22 PM »

Alien Abductions and the Orthodox Christian
by Archbishop Chrysostomos of Etna

Quote
What, then, if they are not advanced beings from other planets, are these alien abductors? Ultimately, one cannot escape the conclusion that they are demons or phantoms created by demonic power. In the first place, they look like demons. They appear to be material creatures, and yet have a transparent character. According to the teachings of the Church, demons are spiritual beings; that is, they are fallen Angels. But because they are corrupt and degenerate, they thrive on the human passions—feed on them. This well explains the almost universal sexual exploitation of their captives by alien abductors. In the second place, in the course of their physical examination of abductees, the aliens inflict pain on their victims and frequently scar them. In spiritual literature, and especially in the lives of the Saints, we repeatedly read of physical attacks against Christian believers by demonic spirits. If these aliens are not demons, how is it that beings so advanced that they can achieve space travel cannot prevent pain and scarring during routine physical examinations? It is not pain which the aliens cannot control, but their demonic passion for inflicting the same on mankind. Moreover, at least initially, abductees experience terror and fright in the presence of their alien abductors; only later, after having been reluctantly won over by the aliens, do they feel secure in the presence of their abductors. This is a classical demonic machination. Demons inevitably strive, in a methodical way, to overcome the initial and natural repulsion that human beings feel in their presence, gaining the confidence of those whom they seek to mislead. Finally, the spiritual effects of abductees’ contacts with aliens, as we have pointed out, are anti-Christian. Abductees are drawn away from the universal teachings of Orthodox Christianity and towards the demonic delusion that underlies modern New Age philosophies. Human transformation ceases, for these victims of alien visitation, to be a God-oriented, Grace-mediated process, but becomes part of a personality-dissolving return to the "elemental" universals upon which the pagan notion of Paradise is predicated.

It is worthy of note that the late Father Seraphim Rose, in his book Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future (Platina, CA: Saint Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 1990; Revised Edition), has also examined the phenomenon of alien visitations to earth from an Orthodox standpoint. He devotes an entire chapter of this work, "‘Signs from Heaven:’ An Orthodox Christian Understanding of Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs)," to the true nature and meaning of alien contacts with human beings... His deeper analysis of the phenomenon is ingenious and supports much of what I have suggested about alien encounters with humans. He also observes that the aliens in contemporary abduction reports are similar in appearance to the demons which, for centuries, have been described in Orthodox literature (p. 134). In fact, he recounts two cases of demonic "kidnappings" in fifteenth- and nineteenth-century Russia that, in Father Seraphim’s words, are "quite close to UFO ‘abductions’" today (pp. 136-137). It is his conclusion that classical demonic possession, known to the Orthodox Church for centuries, accounts for the alien abductions that we see in modern times and that "...modern men, for all their proud ‘enlightenment’ and ‘wisdom,’ are becoming once more aware of such experiences—but no longer have the Christian framework with which to explain them" (p. 137). This conclusion perfectly reflects what I have said about alien abductions and how they should be understood and viewed by the Orthodox Christian.

From Orthodox Tradition, Vol. XIV, No. 1, pp. 57-62.

read the full article here:
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/alien_abduct.aspx
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« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2009, 10:28:44 PM »

Talk to yourself much??
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« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2009, 10:38:47 PM »

Talk to yourself much??

I take the time to contemplate how and what exactly to communicate.
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« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2009, 11:18:32 PM »

“All Planets the Same: Religion’s Response to Space Life V,”
Rev. John S. Romanides, PhD., The Boston Globe, April 8, 1965, page 18.

I can foresee no way in which the teachings of the Orthodox Christian tradition could be affected by the discovery of intelligent beings on another planet. Some of my colleagues feel that even a discussion of the consequences of such a possibility is in itself a waste of time for serious theology and borders on the fringes of foolishness.

I am tempted to agree with them for several reasons.

As I understand the problem, the discovery of intelligent life on another planet would raise questions concerning traditional Roman Catholic and Protestant teachings regarding creation, the fall, man as the image of God, redemption and Biblical inerrancy.

First one should point out that in contrast to the traditions deriving from Latin Christianity, Greek Christianity never had a fundamentalist or literalist understanding of Biblical inspiration and was never committed to the inerrancy of scripture in matters concerning the structure of the universe and life in it. In this regard some modern attempts at de-mything the Bible are interesting and at times amuzing [sic].

Since the very first centuries of Christianity, theologians of the Greek tradition did not believe, as did the Latins, that humanity was created in a state of perfection from which it fell. Rather the Orthodox always believed that man [was] created imperfect, or at a low level of perfection, with the destiny of evolving to higher levels of perfection.

The fall of each man, therefore, entails a failure to reach perfection, rather than any collective fall from perfection.

Also spiritual evolution does not end in a static beatific vision. It is a never ending process which will go on even into eternity.

Also Orthodox Christianity, like Judaism, never knew the Latin and Protestant doctrine of original sin as an inherited Adamic guilt putting all humanity under a divine wrath which was supposedly satisfied by the death of Christ.

Thus the solidarity of the human race in Adamic guilt and the need for satisfaction of divine justice in order to avoid hell are unknown in the Greek Fathers.

This means that the interdependance [sic] and solidarity of creation and its need for redemption and perfection are seen in a different light.

The Orthodox believe that all creation is destined to share in the glory of God. Both damned and glorified will be saved. In other words both will have vision of God in his uncreated glory, with the difference that for the unjust this same uncreated glory of God will be the eternal fires of hell.

God is light for those who learn to love Him and a consuming fire for those who will not. God has no positive intent to punish.

For those not properly prepared, to see God is a cleansing experience, but one which does not move eternally toward higher reaches of perfection.

In contrast, hell is a static state of perfection somewhat similar to Platonic bliss.

In view of this the Orthodox never saw in the Bible any three story universe with a hell of created fire underneath the earth and a heaven beyond the stars.

For the Orthodox discovery of intelligent life on another planet would raise the question of how far advanced these beings are in their love and preparation for divine glory.

As on this planet, so on any other, the fact that one may have not as yet learned about the Lord of Glory of the Old and New Testament, does not mean that he is automatically condemned to hell, just as one who believes in Christ is not automatically destined to be involved in the eternal movement toward perfection.

It is also important to bear in mind that the Greek Fathers of the Church maintain that the soul of man is part of material creation, although a high form of it, and by nature mortal.

Only God is purely immaterial.

Life beyond death is not due to the nature of man but to the will of God. Thus man is not strictly speaking the image of God. Only the Lord of Glory, or the Angel of the Lord of Old and New Testament revelation is the image of God.

Man was created according to the image of God, which means that his destiny is to become like Christ who is the Incarnate Image of God.

Thus the possibility of intelligent beings on another planet being images of God as men on earth are supposed to be is not even a valid question from an Orthodox point of view.

Finally one could point out that the Orthodox Fathers rejected the Platonic belief in immutable archetypes of which this world of change is a poor copy.

This universe and the forms in it are unique and change is of the very essence of creation and not a product of the fall.

Furthermore the categories of change, motion and history belong to the eternal dimensions of salvation-history and are not to be discard[ed] in some kind of eternal bliss.

Thus the existence of intelligent life on another planet behind or way ahead of us in intellectual and spiritual attainment will change little in the traditional beliefs of Orthodox Christianity.

An excellent article thank you for sharing it.

It pretty much answers my original question..

When you gaze into the sky on a clear night you can't help but to think that we are either not alone in this universe or alone in the universe....

Either way both conclusions are intriguing not to say the least...

 Smiley
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« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2009, 11:34:44 PM »

Exodus 21:17  "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

My point being- some of the material of the OT is contingent upon time and culture, while other parts are meant to convey a higher meaning  not meant to be taken literally.  To state that other intelligent life can not exist beyond our solar system because, according to your view, Genesis implies it, is to take a book of an essentially spiritual, higher meaning and hold it up as hard science, which it was never intended to be.

Over the last several decades, there have been millions of “contactees” (persons who claim to have experienced contact with extraterrestrials)… including a large number of “hard scientists.”   These people claim they were contacted by intelligent life/entities/beings from other planets/dimensions.   And these “beings” always communicate messages of a very philosophical/religious nature.  Their messages always discourage any belief in a single omnipotent Creator, and instead emphasize a variety of bizarre alternative explanations for the existence of mankind.  (One of the most common is: the aliens claim to have visited earth millions of years ago to perform an experiment in which they planted humans “seeds”… i.e. they “created” us.)

Quote
“Some or many of the experiences, it may be, are the result of hoaxes or hallucinations; but it is simply impossible to dismiss all of the many millions of UFO reports in this way.  A great number of modern mediums and their spiritistic phenomena are also fraudulent; but mediumistic spiritism itself, when it is genuine, undeniably produces real “paranormal” phenomena under the action of demons.  UFO phenomena, having the same source, are no less real.”
-Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, by Fr Seraphim Rose

You don't need to quote Fr. Seraphim Rose to me. I'm familiar.

I'd like to read about some of these millions of encounters- preferably those from scientists. Are they available online?

Thanks.
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« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2009, 01:39:48 AM »

The article of Fr. John Romanides is amazing. Thank you for posting it here, Ukiemeister.

Seraphim, you are referring to a higher status of humans. But the ETs (if they exist) also can be considered a form of human life, and therefore, they can possess human intelligence.
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« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2009, 10:08:28 AM »

I would have to say that the supposed Alien life that is, and has been visiting us, is not from another planet. If they are from another world, why not finally touch down at the White House Lawn? Why must they all exist in darkness and shadows? Is there any case of alien abduction where the abductee loved the experience? I haven't seen one. Only after repeated abductions do some begin to just "accept" what is happening, and listen to their "visitors". It seems to me, and others that study this phenomenon, that these abductions are meant to mentally, emotionally, and spiritually change people. I agree with Seraphim. This modern/not-so-modern experience of aliens is demonic.
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« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2009, 10:37:22 AM »

“All Planets the Same: Religion’s Response to Space Life V,”
Rev. John S. Romanides, PhD., The Boston Globe, April 8, 1965, page 18.

I can foresee no way in which the teachings of the Orthodox Christian tradition could be affected by the discovery of intelligent beings on another planet. Some of my colleagues feel that even a discussion of the consequences of such a possibility is in itself a waste of time for serious theology and borders on the fringes of foolishness.

I am tempted to agree with them for several reasons.

As I understand the problem, the discovery of intelligent life on another planet would raise questions concerning traditional Roman Catholic and Protestant teachings regarding creation, the fall, man as the image of God, redemption and Biblical inerrancy.

First one should point out that in contrast to the traditions deriving from Latin Christianity, Greek Christianity never had a fundamentalist or literalist understanding of Biblical inspiration and was never committed to the inerrancy of scripture in matters concerning the structure of the universe and life in it. In this regard some modern attempts at de-mything the Bible are interesting and at times amuzing [sic].

Since the very first centuries of Christianity, theologians of the Greek tradition did not believe, as did the Latins, that humanity was created in a state of perfection from which it fell. Rather the Orthodox always believed that man [was] created imperfect, or at a low level of perfection, with the destiny of evolving to higher levels of perfection.

The fall of each man, therefore, entails a failure to reach perfection, rather than any collective fall from perfection.

Also spiritual evolution does not end in a static beatific vision. It is a never ending process which will go on even into eternity.

Also Orthodox Christianity, like Judaism, never knew the Latin and Protestant doctrine of original sin as an inherited Adamic guilt putting all humanity under a divine wrath which was supposedly satisfied by the death of Christ.

Thus the solidarity of the human race in Adamic guilt and the need for satisfaction of divine justice in order to avoid hell are unknown in the Greek Fathers.

This means that the interdependance [sic] and solidarity of creation and its need for redemption and perfection are seen in a different light.

The Orthodox believe that all creation is destined to share in the glory of God. Both damned and glorified will be saved. In other words both will have vision of God in his uncreated glory, with the difference that for the unjust this same uncreated glory of God will be the eternal fires of hell.

God is light for those who learn to love Him and a consuming fire for those who will not. God has no positive intent to punish.

For those not properly prepared, to see God is a cleansing experience, but one which does not move eternally toward higher reaches of perfection.

In contrast, hell is a static state of perfection somewhat similar to Platonic bliss.

In view of this the Orthodox never saw in the Bible any three story universe with a hell of created fire underneath the earth and a heaven beyond the stars.

For the Orthodox discovery of intelligent life on another planet would raise the question of how far advanced these beings are in their love and preparation for divine glory.

As on this planet, so on any other, the fact that one may have not as yet learned about the Lord of Glory of the Old and New Testament, does not mean that he is automatically condemned to hell, just as one who believes in Christ is not automatically destined to be involved in the eternal movement toward perfection.

It is also important to bear in mind that the Greek Fathers of the Church maintain that the soul of man is part of material creation, although a high form of it, and by nature mortal.

Only God is purely immaterial.

Life beyond death is not due to the nature of man but to the will of God. Thus man is not strictly speaking the image of God. Only the Lord of Glory, or the Angel of the Lord of Old and New Testament revelation is the image of God.

Man was created according to the image of God, which means that his destiny is to become like Christ who is the Incarnate Image of God.

Thus the possibility of intelligent beings on another planet being images of God as men on earth are supposed to be is not even a valid question from an Orthodox point of view.

Finally one could point out that the Orthodox Fathers rejected the Platonic belief in immutable archetypes of which this world of change is a poor copy.

This universe and the forms in it are unique and change is of the very essence of creation and not a product of the fall.

Furthermore the categories of change, motion and history belong to the eternal dimensions of salvation-history and are not to be discard[ed] in some kind of eternal bliss.

Thus the existence of intelligent life on another planet behind or way ahead of us in intellectual and spiritual attainment will change little in the traditional beliefs of Orthodox Christianity.

I love Father John, but I have an issue with what he says in red above. If creation was subjected to futility, as St. Paul says, would this not also include the universe? Or does our fall only effect the earth?
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« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2009, 10:58:54 AM »

Decay seems to be a universal problem in our Universe.







JNORM888



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« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2009, 11:01:05 AM »

Decay seems to be a universal problem in our Universe.







JNORM888




Exactly. That is what I was wondering about. Is this decay happening because of the fall? And if so, how could any being, on any other planet, NOT be tainted by our fall?
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« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2009, 11:28:28 AM »

Exodus 21:17  "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

My point being- some of the material of the OT is contingent upon time and culture, while other parts are meant to convey a higher meaning  not meant to be taken literally.  To state that other intelligent life can not exist beyond our solar system because, according to your view, Genesis implies it, is to take a book of an essentially spiritual, higher meaning and hold it up as hard science, which it was never intended to be.

Over the last several decades, there have been millions of “contactees” (persons who claim to have experienced contact with extraterrestrials)… including a large number of “hard scientists.”   These people claim they were contacted by intelligent life/entities/beings from other planets/dimensions.   And these “beings” always communicate messages of a very philosophical/religious nature.  Their messages always discourage any belief in a single omnipotent Creator, and instead emphasize a variety of bizarre alternative explanations for the existence of mankind.  (One of the most common is: the aliens claim to have visited earth millions of years ago to perform an experiment in which they planted humans “seeds”… i.e. they “created” us.)

Quote
“Some or many of the experiences, it may be, are the result of hoaxes or hallucinations; but it is simply impossible to dismiss all of the many millions of UFO reports in this way.  A great number of modern mediums and their spiritistic phenomena are also fraudulent; but mediumistic spiritism itself, when it is genuine, undeniably produces real “paranormal” phenomena under the action of demons.  UFO phenomena, having the same source, are no less real.”
-Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, by Fr Seraphim Rose

You don't need to quote Fr. Seraphim Rose to me. I'm familiar.

I'd like to read about some of these millions of encounters- preferably those from scientists. Are they available online?

Thanks.

So scientists are infallible? They are the new infallible authority? Anyone that MUST interprete everything from a philosophical naturalistic perspective should not be trusted.

There was one cynical guy I saw on TV that tried to explain away demon possession, and haunted houses.

He tried to make it seem as if the people are either

1.) delusional.

2.) Or the bricks in the walls of the homes act like video and audio recording devices.


Whenever Sola Philosophical naturalism is your interpretive grid then goofy answers like this are the outcome. You can't have an intelligent conversation with an audio/video recording. And the person can't be delusional if more than one person can eventually see and hear the samethings.


The same is true when it comes to Atheists trying to explain away near death experiences. To them, everyone must have the same experience in order for it to be true. If one of them, didn't have the experience when they almost died, then they assume that noone else can have them......so anyone that claimed to of had one must be lying.....or just delusional.

They also feel that if you can duplicate a similar effect in a lab then it must be fake. They all ignore the fact that some people who had near death experiences saw things in other rooms, and on top of the hospital building......and were able to describe what they saw with accuracy.

So cynics who are Sola Philosophical Naturalists will always explain away anything and everything that goes against their worldview.





JNORM888
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« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2009, 11:37:25 AM »

Exodus 21:17  "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

My point being- some of the material of the OT is contingent upon time and culture, while other parts are meant to convey a higher meaning  not meant to be taken literally.  To state that other intelligent life can not exist beyond our solar system because, according to your view, Genesis implies it, is to take a book of an essentially spiritual, higher meaning and hold it up as hard science, which it was never intended to be.

Over the last several decades, there have been millions of “contactees” (persons who claim to have experienced contact with extraterrestrials)… including a large number of “hard scientists.”   These people claim they were contacted by intelligent life/entities/beings from other planets/dimensions.   And these “beings” always communicate messages of a very philosophical/religious nature.  Their messages always discourage any belief in a single omnipotent Creator, and instead emphasize a variety of bizarre alternative explanations for the existence of mankind.  (One of the most common is: the aliens claim to have visited earth millions of years ago to perform an experiment in which they planted humans “seeds”… i.e. they “created” us.)

Quote
“Some or many of the experiences, it may be, are the result of hoaxes or hallucinations; but it is simply impossible to dismiss all of the many millions of UFO reports in this way.  A great number of modern mediums and their spiritistic phenomena are also fraudulent; but mediumistic spiritism itself, when it is genuine, undeniably produces real “paranormal” phenomena under the action of demons.  UFO phenomena, having the same source, are no less real.”
-Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, by Fr Seraphim Rose

You don't need to quote Fr. Seraphim Rose to me. I'm familiar.

I'd like to read about some of these millions of encounters- preferably those from scientists. Are they available online?

Thanks.

So scientists are infallible? They are the new infallible authority? Anyone that MUST interprete everything from a philosophical naturalistic perspective should not be trusted.

There was one cynical guy I saw on TV that tried to explain away demon possession, and haunted houses.

He tried to make it seem as if the people are either

1.) delusional.

2.) Or the bricks in the walls of the homes act like video and audio recording devices.


Whenever Sola Philosophical naturalism is your interpretive grid then goofy answers like this are the outcome. You can't have an intelligent conversation with an audio/video recording. And the person can't be delusional if more than one person can eventual see and hear the samethings.





JNORM888

No, not at all. If you read back a few posts you will see that Seraphim mentioned abductions experienced by those in the "hard sciences". I was interested in reading about those particular abduction experiences.
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« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2009, 11:45:31 AM »

Decay seems to be a universal problem in our Universe.







JNORM888




Exactly. That is what I was wondering about. Is this decay happening because of the fall? And if so, how could any being, on any other planet, NOT be tainted by our fall?

True,

It would seem that all within the Universe are tainted......at least it would seem that way. There is a sense of beauty in knowing that God will save the Kosmos.

Universal decay & the eventual Recapitulation of all things seem to compliment eachother.





JNORM888
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 11:45:58 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2009, 11:47:49 AM »

Exodus 21:17  "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

My point being- some of the material of the OT is contingent upon time and culture, while other parts are meant to convey a higher meaning  not meant to be taken literally.  To state that other intelligent life can not exist beyond our solar system because, according to your view, Genesis implies it, is to take a book of an essentially spiritual, higher meaning and hold it up as hard science, which it was never intended to be.

Over the last several decades, there have been millions of “contactees” (persons who claim to have experienced contact with extraterrestrials)… including a large number of “hard scientists.”   These people claim they were contacted by intelligent life/entities/beings from other planets/dimensions.   And these “beings” always communicate messages of a very philosophical/religious nature.  Their messages always discourage any belief in a single omnipotent Creator, and instead emphasize a variety of bizarre alternative explanations for the existence of mankind.  (One of the most common is: the aliens claim to have visited earth millions of years ago to perform an experiment in which they planted humans “seeds”… i.e. they “created” us.)

Quote
“Some or many of the experiences, it may be, are the result of hoaxes or hallucinations; but it is simply impossible to dismiss all of the many millions of UFO reports in this way.  A great number of modern mediums and their spiritistic phenomena are also fraudulent; but mediumistic spiritism itself, when it is genuine, undeniably produces real “paranormal” phenomena under the action of demons.  UFO phenomena, having the same source, are no less real.”
-Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, by Fr Seraphim Rose

You don't need to quote Fr. Seraphim Rose to me. I'm familiar.

I'd like to read about some of these millions of encounters- preferably those from scientists. Are they available online?

Thanks.

So scientists are infallible? They are the new infallible authority? Anyone that MUST interprete everything from a philosophical naturalistic perspective should not be trusted.

There was one cynical guy I saw on TV that tried to explain away demon possession, and haunted houses.

He tried to make it seem as if the people are either

1.) delusional.

2.) Or the bricks in the walls of the homes act like video and audio recording devices.


Whenever Sola Philosophical naturalism is your interpretive grid then goofy answers like this are the outcome. You can't have an intelligent conversation with an audio/video recording. And the person can't be delusional if more than one person can eventual see and hear the samethings.





JNORM888

No, not at all. If you read back a few posts you will see that Seraphim mentioned abductions experienced by those in the "hard sciences". I was interested in reading about those particular abduction experiences.

Understood





JNORM888
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« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2009, 12:06:32 PM »

I don't believe there is intelligent life anywhere in the universe.   Smiley

Witty reply… but this subject isn’t exactly a laughing matter.


Idle speculation then?
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« Reply #58 on: March 24, 2009, 12:12:12 PM »

I don't believe there is intelligent life anywhere in the universe.   Smiley

Witty reply… but this subject isn’t exactly a laughing matter.


If only the Orthodox took poverty, hunger, and disease as seriously as they seem to take aliens.
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« Reply #59 on: March 24, 2009, 12:26:08 PM »

I don't believe there is intelligent life anywhere in the universe.   Smiley

Witty reply… but this subject isn’t exactly a laughing matter.


If only the Orthodox took poverty, hunger, and disease as seriously as they seem to take aliens.

It's really a matter of World View. In the secular mindset, suffering ( Poverty, Disease, Old Age and Death etc.) is a separate issue from Spiritual Life and it's concerns. Suffering is caused by matter rubbing up against more matter and causing a result. Marx and Hegal were great champions of this idea which they expanded to include how the great sweep of history moves forward.

But for the Christian, there is no separation between how we save ourselves and how our salvation effects others. And this salvation ( for the Orthodox at least)is not just some ephemeral notion of spirituality but a salvation of both the body and soul as it exists in this World and also beyond this World. It is a single whole and a continuum.   
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« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2009, 12:47:17 AM »

If only the Orthodox took poverty, hunger, and disease as seriously as they seem to take aliens.


How exactly does the existence of this thread nullify the entire world-wide Orthodox Church’s charity?
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« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2009, 12:48:18 AM »

When you gaze into the sky on a clear night you can't help but to think that we are either not alone in this universe or alone in the universe....


We’re not alone.  There are trillions of species of physical life here on our planet earth.   “Out there” in the heavens (and yet not isolated from earth) are demons, satan, the holy angelic hosts, the saints, the Mother of God, and the Holy Trinity.

The Uncreated God, in His unfathomable love for us, assumed created humanity so that mankind might be saved… even to the point of suffering on the cross.  Is it so unthinkable that such a loving God would create the entire physical universe exclusively for mankind?… placing innumerable galaxies countless light-years away just for the sole reason of allowing us to mark our yearly seasons and chart our geographical navigation?  This not only reveals God’s love for us, but also gives us a glimpse into the infiniteness of the Eternal Creator.  Its rather humbling to think of it that way.
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« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2009, 12:49:42 AM »

I'd like to read about some of these millions of encounters- preferably those from scientists. Are they available online?


To clarify: there are millions of reported extraterrestrial encounters worldwide.  Some of which have been hard scientists. 


If you are serious in your inquiry on this subject, I highly recommend a book that documents one of the most well known and highly official studies on the subject:
DMT: The Spirit Molecule, by Dr. Rick Strassman
(DMT is a naturally-occurring chemical in plants, animals, and even humans – produced in the center of our brain by the pineal gland)

From 1990-1995, Dr. Strassman was the head of an official study by the U.S. government on near-death-experiences, alien abduction, shamanistic trance, out-of-body-travel, occultic mediumism, etc.

He published the results of this study in his book: DMT: The Spirit MoleculeDr. Strassman openly admits being totally unprepared, emotionally and intellectually, for the frequency and bizarreness of the volunteers' encounters with beings. It was always an unpredictable two-way communication – and "they" were always in control.  Personally, he is very uncomfortable with the idea that "contact" is what DMT is about.  The concept and implications of non-corporeal entities generally appears to trouble him deeply.
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« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2009, 12:50:11 AM »

The article of Fr. John Romanides is amazing. Thank you for posting it here, Ukiemeister.


It is amazing that a scholarly article from a person in the 20th century is considered to be on par with (or even exceeding) the writings of St. Basil the Great, St. Maximos the Confessor, St. Augustine, St. John Damasence, St. Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain, St. Symeon the New Theologian, etc.
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« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2009, 12:50:30 AM »

Seraphim, you are referring to a higher status of humans. But the ETs (if they exist) also can be considered a form of human life, and therefore, they can possess human intelligence.


Could you please provide some Patristic literature to validate such claims?
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« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2009, 12:50:52 AM »

I would have to say that the supposed Alien life that is, and has been visiting us, is not from another planet. If they are from another world, why not finally touch down at the White House Lawn? Why must they all exist in darkness and shadows? Is there any case of alien abduction where the abductee loved the experience? I haven't seen one. Only after repeated abductions do some begin to just "accept" what is happening, and listen to their "visitors". It seems to me, and others that study this phenomenon, that these abductions are meant to mentally, emotionally, and spiritually change people. I agree with Seraphim. This modern/not-so-modern experience of aliens is demonic.


Thank you
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« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2009, 12:53:36 AM »

This universe and the forms in it are unique and change is of the very essence of creation and not a product of the fall.

I love Father John, but I have an issue with what he says in red above. If creation was subjected to futility, as St. Paul says, would this not also include the universe? Or does our fall only effect the earth?

…how could any being, on any other planet, NOT be tainted by our fall?

True, it would seem that all within the Universe are tainted......at least it would seem that way. There is a sense of beauty in knowing that God will save the Kosmos.
Universal decay & the eventual Recapitulation of all things seem to compliment each other.


Quote
St. Symeon the New Theologian:

Adam was created with a body that was incorrupt, even though material and not yet spiritual, and he was placed by the Creator God as an immortal king over an incorrupt world, not only over Paradise, but also over the whole creation which was under the heavens… This whole creation in the beginning was incorrupt and was created by God in the manner of Paradise.

[St. Symeon makes it clear that man is on a level of leadership/intelligence unrivaled in all of creation.]

Quote
God knew that our race would multiply to an infinite, innumerable multitude on the earth.

[And here he further makes it clear that mankind as a whole is destined to remain “earth-bound” until the end of this age… i.e. the true Second Coming of Christ]


Quote
Through sin, the cosmos [the universe as a whole] became a place of death and corruption.
-St. Maximus the Confessor

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At the fall the entire visible creation fell into corruption along with man.”
The Patristic Understanding of the Cosmos before the Fall, by Hieromonk Damascene
http://mihaicaragiu.blogspot.com/2008/12/patristic-understanding-of-cosmos.html
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« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2009, 12:54:12 AM »

Witty reply… but this subject isn’t exactly a laughing matter.

Idle speculation then?


Idle, perhaps, to those who have not personally been influenced by “alien” abduction and open demonic possession.  Until you’ve tangibly had your world rocked by these encounters, Sci-Fi movies that feature intelligent alien species seem like harmless entertainment.  But after you’ve had to come face to face with the reality that there are countless people having real encounters with “aliens” – encounters which can quickly lead a person to spiritual death – all these Hollywood block-busters are seen to be playing a vital role in shifting and reshaping humanity’s perspective and attitude towards the idea of being contacted by alien life-forms… making the idea more and more appealing that perhaps some other intelligent life from another world will come and save humanity from its problems.  The world has rejected Christ, but it eagerly awaits the arrival of false messiahs, led by the antichrist.
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« Reply #68 on: March 25, 2009, 10:18:11 AM »

Witty reply… but this subject isn’t exactly a laughing matter.

Idle speculation then?


Idle, perhaps, to those who have not personally been influenced by “alien” abduction and open demonic possession.  Until you’ve tangibly had your world rocked by these encounters, Sci-Fi movies that feature intelligent alien species seem like harmless entertainment.  But after you’ve had to come face to face with the reality that there are countless people having real encounters with “aliens” – encounters which can quickly lead a person to spiritual death – all these Hollywood block-busters are seen to be playing a vital role in shifting and reshaping humanity’s perspective and attitude towards the idea of being contacted by alien life-forms… making the idea more and more appealing that perhaps some other intelligent life from another world will come and save humanity from its problems.  The world has rejected Christ, but it eagerly awaits the arrival of false messiahs, led by the antichrist.


Do you personally know people who claim to have been abducted by aliens? I don't.
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« Reply #69 on: March 25, 2009, 01:14:22 PM »

It seems that my question was answered then. Mankind's Fall tainted the entire universe. If this is true, then all life in the universe, even "real" aliens would be tainted by our fall. Or do some here think, perhaps, that those from other planets are not subject to death/decay?
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« Reply #70 on: March 25, 2009, 01:15:50 PM »

Do you personally know people who claim to have been abducted by aliens? I don't.
What does that matter? Seriously? Abduction cases are not valid unless we, or someone we know have experienced them?
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« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2009, 02:06:21 PM »

Do you personally know people who claim to have been abducted by aliens? I don't.
What does that matter? Seriously? Abduction cases are not valid unless we, or someone we know have experienced them?

Seraphim seems to present abductions as if they're common happenings- an issue worth investigating so we can protect  ourselves from demons when the aliens finally are revealed as demonic entities bent on changing the focus of our worship. Since I doubt he, or anyone here, has ever had an alien encounter of this kind, why is this "issue", experienced by none of us and most likely no one we will ever know, being presented as so darn serious? The conclusions he (and you) are drawing are based totally on conjecture and scant "facts" - facts that really amount to close to nothing yet are interpreted with absolute authority to draw conclusions about aliens that seem far fetched considering the "evidence".

Since roughly 4% of the entire world is even nominally Orthodox (maybe half that at best even attend church at all), why the fear of some great apostasy or betrayal of the faith brought on by aliens who want to deceive us? We've done enough deceiving of ourselves and there are so few Orthodox in the world that to me it makes much greater sense to concentrate on the issues why people here, now, ON EARTH, who do not experience alien abductions (99.999999999999% of us) are not Orthodox or have left the faith. That seems a more pressing issue than alien seduction.
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« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2009, 02:17:06 PM »

Do you personally know people who claim to have been abducted by aliens? I don't.
What does that matter? Seriously? Abduction cases are not valid unless we, or someone we know have experienced them?

Seraphim seems to present abductions as if they're common happenings- an issue worth investigating so we can protect  ourselves from demons when the aliens finally are revealed as demonic entities bent on changing the focus of our worship. Since I doubt he, or anyone here, has ever had an alien encounter of this kind, why is this "issue", experienced by none of us and most likely no one we will ever know, being presented as so darn serious? The conclusions he (and you) are drawing are based totally on conjecture and scant "facts" - facts that really amount to close to nothing yet are interpreted with absolute authority to draw conclusions about aliens that seem far fetched considering the "evidence".

Since roughly 4% of the entire world is even nominally Orthodox (maybe half that at best even attend church at all), why the fear of some great apostasy or betrayal of the faith brought on by aliens who want to deceive us? We've done enough deceiving of ourselves and there are so few Orthodox in the world that to me it makes much greater sense to concentrate on the issues why people here, now, ON EARTH, who do not experience alien abductions (99.999999999999% of us) are not Orthodox or have left the faith. That seems a more pressing issue than alien seduction.
The fact is millions of people (even in third world countries), are experiencing "alien" phenomenon. The facts are no longer scant, you just don't want to look for them. Do you know anyone that was possessed by a demon? Or has seen a demon/talked to one? This seems to be the logic you are using, and you can see where it goes. I am absolutely sure there are quite a few cases of sightings/abductions that are completely and totally FALSE. Does this mean that all cases are? I'm not so willing to say so.
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« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2009, 02:22:30 PM »

Do you personally know people who claim to have been abducted by aliens? I don't.
What does that matter? Seriously? Abduction cases are not valid unless we, or someone we know have experienced them?

Seraphim seems to present abductions as if they're common happenings- an issue worth investigating so we can protect  ourselves from demons when the aliens finally are revealed as demonic entities bent on changing the focus of our worship. Since I doubt he, or anyone here, has ever had an alien encounter of this kind, why is this "issue", experienced by none of us and most likely no one we will ever know, being presented as so darn serious? The conclusions he (and you) are drawing are based totally on conjecture and scant "facts" - facts that really amount to close to nothing yet are interpreted with absolute authority to draw conclusions about aliens that seem far fetched considering the "evidence".

Since roughly 4% of the entire world is even nominally Orthodox (maybe half that at best even attend church at all), why the fear of some great apostasy or betrayal of the faith brought on by aliens who want to deceive us? We've done enough deceiving of ourselves and there are so few Orthodox in the world that to me it makes much greater sense to concentrate on the issues why people here, now, ON EARTH, who do not experience alien abductions (99.999999999999% of us) are not Orthodox or have left the faith. That seems a more pressing issue than alien seduction.
The fact is millions of people (even in third world countries), are experiencing "alien" phenomenon. The facts are no longer scant, you just don't want to look for them. Do you know anyone that was possessed by a demon? Or has seen a demon/talked to one? This seems to be the logic you are using, and you can see where it goes. I am absolutely sure there are quite a few cases of sightings/abductions that are completely and totally FALSE. Does this mean that all cases are? I'm not so willing to say so.

Get back to me if you ever hear your priest give a sermon about it.  Wink
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« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2009, 02:25:16 PM »

Get back to me if you ever hear your priest give a sermon about it.  Wink
Oh, come on! Cheesy
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« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2009, 02:29:38 PM »

To clarify: there are millions of reported extraterrestrial encounters worldwide.  Some of which have been hard scientists. 


However, that does not mean that they are from "Other Planets" . I think the possability of extra dimensional existence is another explanation.
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« Reply #76 on: March 25, 2009, 03:13:28 PM »

This universe and the forms in it are unique and change is of the very essence of creation and not a product of the fall.

I love Father John, but I have an issue with what he says in red above. If creation was subjected to futility, as St. Paul says, would this not also include the universe? Or does our fall only effect the earth?

…how could any being, on any other planet, NOT be tainted by our fall?

True, it would seem that all within the Universe are tainted......at least it would seem that way. There is a sense of beauty in knowing that God will save the Kosmos.
Universal decay & the eventual Recapitulation of all things seem to compliment each other.


Quote
St. Symeon the New Theologian:

Adam was created with a body that was incorrupt, even though material and not yet spiritual, and he was placed by the Creator God as an immortal king over an incorrupt world, not only over Paradise, but also over the whole creation which was under the heavens… This whole creation in the beginning was incorrupt and was created by God in the manner of Paradise.

[St. Symeon makes it clear that man is on a level of leadership/intelligence unrivaled in all of creation.]

Quote
God knew that our race would multiply to an infinite, innumerable multitude on the earth.

[And here he further makes it clear that mankind as a whole is destined to remain “earth-bound” until the end of this age… i.e. the true Second Coming of Christ]


Quote
Through sin, the cosmos [the universe as a whole] became a place of death and corruption.
-St. Maximus the Confessor

Quote
At the fall the entire visible creation fell into corruption along with man.”
The Patristic Understanding of the Cosmos before the Fall, by Hieromonk Damascene
http://mihaicaragiu.blogspot.com/2008/12/patristic-understanding-of-cosmos.html




In order for any of us to survive in space, we would have to take the "Earth" with us. Men already traveled around the Earth in a space ship, and we already landed on the Moon, but in order for us to live outthere for the long term, we need to take the life(eco-system) of the Planet with us. We would have to mimic Earth, in order to live in space. So a spaceship would have to act like a mini-Earth.......or else we won't survive. There is nothing in the Faith that says we can't multiply the life of the Earth outside of the planet. There is nothing that says we can't have mini-Earths(spaceships/space stations) all over our solar system.

I'm not saying humanity as a whole will live in space. All I'm saying is, some men can live in space......but in order to do so, we will need to take and copy the eco-system of Earth.




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« Reply #77 on: March 27, 2009, 02:01:47 AM »

Seraphim, you are referring to a higher status of humans. But the ETs (if they exist) also can be considered a form of human life, and therefore, they can possess human intelligence.


Could you please provide some Patristic literature to validate such claims?


First and foremost, I am somewhat moderately sceptical about an existence of ETs per se. Secondly, this issue does not seem to me to be a strictly theological subject. Instead, this is about possible habitation of other planets.

In order to operate a space vehicle, someone needs to possess an adequate intelligence.

Seraphim, would you please clarify, do you consider that some cases of contacts with aliens may be demonic in nature, or do you believe that all reported contacts with aliens are contacts with demons?
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« Reply #78 on: March 27, 2009, 02:21:56 AM »

To clarify: there are millions of reported extraterrestrial encounters worldwide.  Some of which have been hard scientists. 


However, that does not mean that they are from "Other Planets" . I think the possability of extra dimensional existence is another explanation.

Chuckling, hard....I often pondered these "ETs" being US, from our own future. After all, what other INTELLIGENT folk would want to study/visit us? Then I go have some coffee and sober up some.  Cheesy
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« Reply #79 on: March 27, 2009, 05:57:34 PM »

I would have to say that the supposed Alien life that is, and has been visiting us, is not from another planet. If they are from another world, why not finally touch down at the White House Lawn?

How would they know anything about the White House?  Considering what Earth looks like from Space at night, there are brighter/more populous places to go.  Granted in the classic version of "The Day the Earth Stood Still" the saucer did land in Washington DC. 

Quote
Why must they all exist in darkness and shadows? Is there any case of alien abduction where the abductee loved the experience? I haven't seen one. Only after repeated abductions do some begin to just "accept" what is happening, and listen to their "visitors".

You know of persons who have been "abducted" more then once?

Quote
It seems to me, and others that study this phenomenon, that these abductions are meant to mentally, emotionally, and spiritually change people. I agree with Seraphim. This modern/not-so-modern experience of aliens is demonic.

Or it could be imaginary.  What solid proof do you know of that confirms such an abduction?

Ebor
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« Reply #80 on: March 27, 2009, 06:14:13 PM »

To clarify: there are millions of reported extraterrestrial encounters worldwide.  Some of which have been hard scientists. 

Millions?  Would you please give some names of "hard scientists" who have been abducted or had encounters?


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« Reply #81 on: March 27, 2009, 07:56:33 PM »

To clarify: there are millions of reported extraterrestrial encounters worldwide.  Some of which have been hard scientists. 

Millions?  Would you please give some names of "hard scientists" who have been abducted or had encounters?




This was actually Marc quoting Seraphim. I asked for these cases as well- nothing presented yet.
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« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2009, 12:00:28 AM »

To clarify: there are millions of reported extraterrestrial encounters worldwide.  Some of which have been hard scientists. 


However, that does not mean that they are from "Other Planets" . I think the possability of extra dimensional existence is another explanation.

Chuckling, hard....I often pondered these "ETs" being US, from our own future. After all, what other INTELLIGENT folk would want to study/visit us? Then I go have some coffee and sober up some.  Cheesy

It's not that they are " us " but rather they are from " here ".

There is a famous Japanese Woodblock of the Buddhist Prophet Nichiren depicting the night after he narrowly escaped beheading by the authorities. Just as the executioner lifted his sword a giant fire ball fell from the sky and scared them enough to decide not to carry out the beheading. The next night he was held prisoner awaiting exile to Sado Island. The wood block shows what we would all today recognize as a 'saucer' hovering above a plumb tree. The wood block clearly shows two beings sitting inside of it and Nichiren talking to them. The guards had their faces in the dirt.  The year was, as I recall, sometime around 1284.

When Nichiren wrote about the incident later on, he identified the beings inside the craft as "Bodhisattva's" which roughly corresponds to Angelic beings in our parlance or at least other dimensional beings that are around to help us.
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« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2009, 12:11:22 PM »

It's not that they are " us " but rather they are from " here ".

That is a theory that has not been proven to be true yet, it seems to me.

Quote
There is a famous Japanese Woodblock of the Buddhist Prophet Nichiren depicting the night after he narrowly escaped beheading by the authorities. Just as the executioner lifted his sword a giant fire ball fell from the sky and scared them enough to decide not to carry out the beheading. The next night he was held prisoner awaiting exile to Sado Island. The wood block shows what we would all today recognize as a 'saucer' hovering above a plumb tree. The wood block clearly shows two beings sitting inside of it and Nichiren talking to them. The guards had their faces in the dirt.  The year was, as I recall, sometime around 1284.

Could you please provide a link to this picture?  I recall seeing similar scenes and the "saucer" in them has been a lotus flower, which has significance in Buddhism, so I would be interested to see if the depiction you describe is the same.  The Lotus is also important in this case because this person promoted the "Lotus Sutra".  Also, Nichiren lived from 1222 to 1282 and the attempted beheading was in 1271.  Here is a link to a biography of Nichiren  http://www.myokan-ko.net/menu/eds.htm

Quote
When Nichiren wrote about the incident later on, he identified the beings inside the craft as "Bodhisattva's" which roughly corresponds to Angelic beings in our parlance or at least other dimensional beings that are around to help us.

I don't know about "other dimensional beings".  Bodhisattava means "enlightened being" and refers to "a being that compassionately refrains from entering nirvana in order to save others and is worshipped as a deity in Mahayana Buddhism".  The definition is from Merriam-Webster. That is not the same as extra-terrestrials.

Ebor
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« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2009, 01:01:23 PM »

It's not that they are " us " but rather they are from " here ".

That is a theory that has not been prov en to be true yet, it seems to me.

Quote
There is a famous Japanese Woodblock of the Buddhist Prophet Nichiren depicting the night after he narrowly escaped beheading by the authorities. Just as the executioner lifted his sword a giant fire ball fell from the sky and scared them enough to decide not to carry out the beheading. The next night he was held prisoner awaiting exile to Sado Island. The wood block shows what we would all today recognize as a 'saucer' hovering above a plumb tree. The wood block clearly shows two beings sitting inside of it and Nichiren talking to them. The guards had their faces in the dirt.  The year was, as I recall, sometime around 1284.

Could you please provide a link to this picture?  I recall seeing similar scenes and the "saucer" in them has been a lotus flower, which has significance in Buddhism, so I would be interested to see if the depiction you describe is the same.  The Lotus is also important in this case because this person promoted the "Lotus Sutra".  Also, Nichiren lived from 1222 to 1282 and the attempted beheading was in 1271.  Here is a link to a biography of Nichiren  http://www.myokan-ko.net/menu/eds.htm

Quote
When Nichiren wrote about the incident later on, he identified the beings inside the craft as "Bodhisattva's" which roughly corresponds to Angelic beings in our parlance or at least other dimensional beings that are around to help us.

I don't know about "other dimensional beings".  Bodhisattva means "enlightened being" and refers to "a being that compassionately refrains from entering nirvana in order to save others and is worshipped as a deity in Mahayana Buddhism".  The definition is from Merriam-Webster. That is not the same as extra-terrestrials.

Ebor

Well of course extra dimensional life has not been proven. Neither has life on other planets.

But extra dimensional life is far more in concert with Christian ( and other religions) World View. We believe  in the continued existence of the dead, in demonic and angelic entities etc etc.

  The Wood block is reprinted in a book by a Rev. T.Kubota and translated by H. G. Lamont and is published by the Kempon Hokke Shu ( a sect of Nichiren Buddhism. I think it is called "The Doctrine of Nichiren Shonin" but I may have it confused with another book by Kubota. I am going out of town starting tomarrow and back on Thursday and will look for it when I get back. Feel free to Goggle around yourself and find it . I would also try the "Nichiren Coffee House" which has lots of Buddhist on-line resources.
There is no possability of the saucer being a depiction of a Lotus Flower. It is not vague at all. It is a Saucer by any stretch of the imagination with two little people sitting inside of it.

There is also a letter penned by Nichiren himself describing the incident. I have seen a reliable copy. He said two Bodhisattva's came down with a great wind and hung (hovered) above a plumb tree. I believe the document still exists in the original and in early copies. The main stream Nichiren Groups are pop health wealth and happiness cults and don't like to talk about this incident too much. You must go to the more authentic Nichiren Groups such as Kempon Hokke and Nichiren Shu who are more scholarly.. The document is also printed in the Showa Teihon Ibun ( the complete compilation of Nichiren's writings).
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« Reply #85 on: March 29, 2009, 01:07:23 PM »

Thank you for the information.  I have not found this particular picture yet.  One question that occurs to me is when the picture was made and by whom?  Another thought is that there are round cushions sometimes used in Japan.  So a "saucer" is not necessarily be a stereotypical "flying saucer" as in the movies.

I have no difficulty in taking Nichiren's account of an incident as what he himself experienced.  But that does not mean that the beings in his vision or whatever it was are necessarily corporeal as are human beings and any theoretical sentients from another planet. 

I have no difficulty in believing in the existence of, as you wrote, "extra dimensional life" as a Christian along with life that is corporeal as are human beings on Earth. 

Ebor
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« Reply #86 on: March 29, 2009, 04:42:41 PM »

To clarify: there are millions of reported extraterrestrial encounters worldwide.  Some of which have been hard scientists. 

Millions?  Would you please give some names of "hard scientists" who have been abducted or had encounters?




I would be interested to read about their experiences...

 Wink
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« Reply #87 on: March 29, 2009, 10:38:37 PM »

Millions?  Would you please give some names of "hard scientists" who have been abducted or had encounters?

I would be interested to read about their experiences...
 Wink

I asked for these cases as well- nothing presented yet.


I gave the name of a hard scientist who observed scores of people first-hand while they were encountering other-worldly visitors during an official 5-year study sponsored and funded by the U.S. government.  The fact that this post isn’t even being acknowledged on this thread causes me to doubt the presence of any genuine inquiry on this subject, but rather a desire for endless debate… of which I will not be a part.
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« Reply #88 on: March 29, 2009, 10:40:48 PM »

Do you personally know people who claim to have been abducted by aliens? I don't.


I usually never delve into such parts of my personal history, but such circumstances as this force me to speak of things which I have willingly long ago pushed far into the back of my memory.  In answer to your question: YES.  I have both first and second hand experience of this phenomenon. 

The experience of your soul being ripped from your body and dangling like a blade of grass in a galaxy-sized vacuum tube as myriads of malicious evil beings ominously await your arrival with horrific shrieks of predatory anticipation… such an experience is not something one easily forgets… especially when you don’t know how to interpret the phenomenon.  And it is further confusing to ask others about your experience, and have literally hundreds of people reply by saying they’ve experienced the same type of encounters for many years… and explain your experience as “contact with the superior species/beings of the universe” etc. 

When asking about the “evil and ominous” sensation accompanied by the presence of the “beings,” the answer is that most people aren’t “evolved” enough to fully interact with the “energy” of the beings… but they offer complete assurance that if we willingly cooperate with the beings each “visitation” will be increasingly more pleasing and “enlightening”… “exponentially increasing our evolution.”


I speak from the experience of myself and countless others.  What/Who on earth (or from elsewhere) do you suppose would psychically/spiritually contact people by the millions and make such claims of exalted positions in the universe?  Surely not the holy angelic hosts who completely reject all glory given to them… pointing with complete and utter reverence towards the One and All-Holy Trinity as the Lord and God of all creation, both visible and invisible.  No, it is Satan, and all his minions who are envious of mankind’s position of potential supremacy in creation, both visible and invisible.

Satan, in his envy, strove to:

ascend above the tops of the clouds” and make himself “like the Most High."
But instead he was “brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.”
(Isaiah 14:14-15)


Who else but Satan and his followers would dare to contact mankind with the message that humanity isn’t the most (potentially) exalted creation of God?… much less proclaim that there isn’t even an actual omnipotent, personal Creator/God?
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« Reply #89 on: March 30, 2009, 12:46:27 AM »

I gave the name of a hard scientist who observed scores of people first-hand while they were encountering other-worldly visitors during an official 5-year study sponsored and funded by the U.S. government. 

I had missed that post by not being here for a few days.  I have found it and looked up Dr. Rick Strassman. He is a medical doctor who has conducted research on hallucinogenic drugs, not alien abductions.  Yes, he wrote a book called DMT: The Spirit Molecule which is an hallucinogen.  that is not the same thing as persons or incidents of physical encounters/abductions.  What the subjects of Dr. Strassman's studies experienced were inside their minds. So Dr. Strassman's observations are not of "other-worldly visitors" same sense as 'flying saucers' or extra-terrestrial physical individual entities, things that might be photographed or leave physical traces.

Quote
The fact that this post isn’t even being acknowledged on this thread causes me to doubt the presence of any genuine inquiry on this subject, but rather a desire for endless debate… of which I will not be a part.

For my part, I don't want "endless debate". I am asking for real names and solid data of purported encounters of the "third  or fourth Kind"

Ebor
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« Reply #90 on: March 30, 2009, 01:08:19 AM »

I did see some unexplainable things way back when organic peyote was popular...
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« Reply #91 on: April 02, 2009, 12:10:00 PM »

Thank you for the information.  I have not found this particular picture yet.  One question that occurs to me is when the picture was made and by whom?  Another thought is that there are round cushions sometimes used in Japan.  So a "saucer" is not necessarily be a stereotypical "flying saucer" as in the movies.

I have no difficulty in taking Nichiren's account of an incident as what he himself experienced.  But that does not mean that the beings in his vision or whatever it was are necessarily corporeal as are human beings and any theoretical sentients from another planet. 

I have no difficulty in believing in the existence of, as you wrote, "extra dimensional life" as a Christian along with life that is corporeal as are human beings on Earth. 

Ebor

I am back home today and will look around but I talked to a knowledgeable friend and he does not think the woodblock is on-line anywhere. I think you will need to buy a copy of Rev. Kubota's book from the Kempon Hokke Shu to see it.

Having seen it, I think there is little elbow room to explain the saucer away as a cushion or a Lotus Blossom etc. It is what we all have seen before in terms of a Saucer, with a a cockpit and two little "aliens" sitting inside.

This was also not a "vision". Nichiren's account said he and his guards were awakened by "a great wind" and went outside and saw it :"Hanging in the air from a plum tree" . The wood block shows the craft hovering above a tree.

Nichiren was not alone. He said some of the guards became very frightend and ran away but others stayed with him. This was an actual experience. He conversed with the beings but unfortunately did not disclose what they said to him. He identified them  as Bodhisattva's ( roughly equivalent to Christian Style Angles) who had come down from heaven. 
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« Reply #92 on: April 02, 2009, 12:46:11 PM »

This universe and the forms in it are unique and change is of the very essence of creation and not a product of the fall.

I love Father John, but I have an issue with what he says in red above. If creation was subjected to futility, as St. Paul says, would this not also include the universe? Or does our fall only effect the earth?

…how could any being, on any other planet, NOT be tainted by our fall?

True, it would seem that all within the Universe are tainted......at least it would seem that way. There is a sense of beauty in knowing that God will save the Kosmos.
Universal decay & the eventual Recapitulation of all things seem to compliment each other.


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St. Symeon the New Theologian:

Adam was created with a body that was incorrupt, even though material and not yet spiritual, and he was placed by the Creator God as an immortal king over an incorrupt world, not only over Paradise, but also over the whole creation which was under the heavens… This whole creation in the beginning was incorrupt and was created by God in the manner of Paradise.

[St. Symeon makes it clear that man is on a level of leadership/intelligence unrivaled in all of creation.]

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In order for any of us to survive in space, we would have to take the "Earth" with us. Men already traveled around the Earth in a space ship, and we already landed on the Moon, but in order for us to live outthere for the long term, we need to take the life(eco-system) of the Planet with us. We would have to mimic Earth, in order to live in space. So a spaceship would have to act like a mini-Earth.......or else we won't survive. There is nothing in the Faith that says we can't multiply the life of the Earth outside of the planet. There is nothing that says we can't have mini-Earths(spaceships/space stations) all over our solar system.

I'm not saying humanity as a whole will live in space. All I'm saying is, some men can live in space......but in order to do so, we will need to take and copy the eco-system of Earth.




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Hello ! Isn't there a passage in scripture that say's ,though you hide among the stars i shall find you... I interped it  as ,eventually people will move to other planets , I could be wrong...
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« Reply #93 on: April 02, 2009, 01:00:11 PM »

All programs that i watched about the abducted by alien's  the ones on the talk shows all seem to have one thing in common,there sexual organs were fondled by the aliens...HaHaHaHa

So the alien came a great distance just to do that...HuhHuh
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« Reply #94 on: April 02, 2009, 01:50:58 PM »


How would they know anything about the White House?  Considering what Earth looks like from Space at night, there are brighter/more populous places to go.  Granted in the classic version of "The Day the Earth Stood Still" the saucer did land in Washington DC. 

You know of persons who have been "abducted" more than once?

Or it could be imaginary.  What solid proof do you know of that confirms such an abduction?

Ebor
Forgive me for being away for so long.
In response to your first comment, I would agree. My point was just that it seemed bizarre that these "aliens" never seem to openly declare their existence.
On your second comment I am confused. Are you asking if I personally know people that have been abducted? If so no. 
On to your third comment. I am arguing that these "aliens" are, in fact, demonic. Why would spiritual beings leave solid evidence like we would find at a crime scene? I think that it is on your shoulders to explain why so many people the world over are experiencing these "aliens". If it is all a figment of imagination, what is triggering this phenomenon across the globe?
He is a medical doctor who has conducted research on hallucinogenic drugs, not alien abductions.  Yes, he wrote a book called DMT: The Spirit Molecule which is an hallucinogen.  that is not the same thing as persons or incidents of physical encounters/abductions.  What the subjects of Dr. Strassman's studies experienced were inside their minds. So Dr. Strassman's observations are not of "other-worldly visitors" same sense as 'flying saucers' or extra-terrestrial physical individual entities, things that might be photographed or leave physical traces.
Some have posited that N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) could actually give the user a glimpse into another reality, demonic, etc. Why does it somehow negate the experience if it is within a person's mind? Many users of DMT say that it is nothing like other hallucinogens. The same has been suggested of the hallucinogen Dipropyltryptamine (DPT). Hallucinogens have been used by cultures for thousands of years, not to get "High", but for religious purposes. One of which was/is to contact the gods/higher beings. Could these drugs give others an awareness of other, perhaps demonic, realities? I tend to think so.
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« Reply #95 on: April 02, 2009, 01:52:17 PM »

All programs that i watched about the abducted by alien's  the ones on the talk shows all seem to have one thing in common,there sexual organs were fondled by the aliens...HaHaHaHa

So the alien came a great distance just to do that...HuhHuh

Why do you even post such garbage?
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« Reply #96 on: April 02, 2009, 04:31:50 PM »

All programs that i watched about the abducted by alien's  the ones on the talk shows all seem to have one thing in common,there sexual organs were fondled by the aliens...HaHaHaHa

So the alien came a great distance just to do that...HuhHuh

Why do you even post such garbage?

Jeez, Stash, no more Star Trek for you! Wink
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« Reply #97 on: April 02, 2009, 05:14:21 PM »

Forgive me for being away for so long.
In response to your first comment, I would agree. My point was just that it seemed bizarre that these "aliens" never seem to openly declare their existence.

Why?  When humans are observing other forms of life (animals in the wild is what I have in mind) they often observe in ways to not interact with the creatures.

Quote
On your second comment I am confused. Are you asking if I personally know people that have been abducted? If so no. 

That was what I was asking.  I think that there may have been some confusion in posts.

Quote
On to your third comment. I am arguing that these "aliens" are, in fact, demonic.

I understand that. But how do you *know* that they are "demonic"?  On what basis of data or information do you base this and particularly in cases where people claim that there is physical evidence of encounters or that the creatures were corporeal as you or I are.

Quote
Why would spiritual beings leave solid evidence like we would find at a crime scene?

But I don't think that it is established that any such beings are spiritual as opposed to physical and mortal.

[qupte]
 I think that it is on your shoulders to explain why so many people the world over are experiencing these "aliens". If it is all a figment of imagination, what is triggering this phenomenon across the globe?
[/quote]

Why?  How many are "so many?"  Some cases have been debunked and some have been shown to be fakes.  Do you have a particular case or cases in mind? 

Quote
He is a medical doctor who has conducted research on hallucinogenic drugs, not alien abductions.  Yes, he wrote a book called DMT: The Spirit Molecule which is an hallucinogen.  that is not the same thing as persons or incidents of physical encounters/abductions.  What the subjects of Dr. Strassman's studies experienced were inside their minds. So Dr. Strassman's observations are not of "other-worldly visitors" same sense as 'flying saucers' or extra-terrestrial physical individual entities, things that might be photographed or leave physical traces.
Some have posited that N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) could actually give the user a glimpse into another reality, demonic, etc. Why does it somehow negate the experience if it is within a person's mind? Many users of DMT say that it is nothing like other hallucinogens. The same has been suggested of the hallucinogen Dipropyltryptamine (DPT). Hallucinogens have been used by cultures for thousands of years, not to get "High", but for religious purposes. One of which was/is to contact the gods/higher beings. Could these drugs give others an awareness of other, perhaps demonic, realities? I tend to think so.


Who are the "some" please?  Dr. Strassman is a scientist who is studying this substance.  But physical encounters and hallucinations are different things. 


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« Reply #98 on: April 02, 2009, 11:59:35 PM »

At the risk of never being taken seriously again, let me tell you about the UFO I saw several years ago.

I was on the highway going to an appointment early in the evening around dusk. This highway is  very well traveled and there were other cars going each direction, north and south. In the distance I saw a very very bright light in the sky. It was as bright as burning magnesium . I remembered something I had heard off-hand that people often mistake the planet Venus for a UFO and started to say to myself that this must be Venus. However, it was much lower in the sky and 1000 times brighter than a merely glowing planet in the sky.

As I got closer I saw something I will never forget. The glowing light was above and linked to an actual craft. It was as large as a four or five story building. It looked like two pyramids linked together one on top and one on the bottom. It had what looked like two head lights in the front like the headlights on a Chevy Stingray. The bright light was about 1000 yards above it and there was a thin ray of light linking the bright light and the craft..............Did I mention it was as large as a four or five story building? It was hovering above a shopping complex and a hi-rise apartment building.

I slowed down and looked hard at it. I considered stopping but I became frightened and disoriented at seeing something that was very hard to believe was really there. It gave off a low humming tone.

I went to my appointment and drove home. It was gone when I went back the same way. I told my dear wife and kids what I had seen. My family knows me as very level headed and believed me.

I was not particularly interested in UFO's. It was not a subject I was interested in. My wife was more interested and knew more about such things. But, I cant deny that I saw this. It hasn't really affected me nor am I now a UFO buff by any means. I am just a person who saw a craft as big as a building hovering above a populated area off the highway. I cant explain it. I just saw what I saw.....Go figure. 
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« Reply #99 on: April 03, 2009, 12:06:23 AM »

At the risk of never being taken seriously again, let me tell you about the UFO I saw several years ago.

A UFO story won't cause us to take you less seriously... Everyone who sticks around for more than 1 post shouldn't be taken seriously (says the guy with 11,000+).
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« Reply #100 on: April 03, 2009, 11:43:13 AM »

Why?  When humans are observing other forms of life (animals in the wild is what I have in mind) they often observe in ways to not interact with the creatures.
I understand that. But how do you *know* that they are "demonic"?  On what basis of data or information do you base this and particularly in cases where people claim that there is physical evidence of encounters or that the creatures were corporeal as you or I are.
But I don't think that it is established that any such beings are spiritual as opposed to physical and mortal.
I think that it is on your shoulders to explain why so many people the world over are experiencing these "aliens". If it is all a figment of imagination, what is triggering this phenomenon across the globe?
Why?  How many are "so many?"  Some cases have been debunked and some have been shown to be fakes.  Do you have a particular case or cases in mind?
Who are the "some" please?  Dr. Strassman is a scientist who is studying this substance.  But physical encounters and hallucinations are different things.
On your first point, I would have to say that I never considered that. I quite like that idea (from the view that these aliens are in fact aliens, and not demonic). It doesn't really stand up to the notion of the aliens being demonic, but I like it none-the-less.

On your second point: I don't know it for a fact, I believe it to be the case. An excellent book that I own that argues for my position is found here:http://www.amazon.com/Alien-Intrusion-Gary-Bates/dp/0890514356/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t While I don't agree with everything that he has to say (he is a Protestant Evangelical), a lot of the cases he brings up are persuading enough to me. The physical evidence that you speak of usually involves injuries to the "abductees" i.e. scratches, cuts, lacerations, bruises... The demonic can produce this sort of phenomenon. They can also appear to have corporeal "bodies" ( I will not tire you with the "Angel of Light" quotes).

On your third point you are correct. There are many views espoused in the UFO community, one of which is that it is demonic in origin.

On your fourth point I will agree that many cases are fakes/frauds, but there is such a super-abundance of material that has not been debunked and looks genuine, that I am swayed by some of the cases. The evidence has been linked above, but is certainly not exhaustive.

On your fifth point the some would be Daniel Pinchbeck's book found here:http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Open-Head-Psychedelic-Contemporary/dp/0767907434/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238773029&sr=1-1 He is of the persuasion that DMT and other hallucinogens do open up other realities to us that are in fact real. This is not just his opinion. He quotes from many, many people, from scientists to shamans, etc. Another book that speaks of this is found here:http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Drugs-Einstein-Elves-Transcendence/dp/1890572179/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238773181&sr=1-1 Yes, I am aware that this particular book has a ridiculous title, but it does bring up some interesting points. What I was saying in regards to these men, and the shamanic use of hallucinogens was that they understand what they see and experience to be true encounters, not just hallucinations. Other realities, perhaps demonic.
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« Reply #101 on: April 03, 2009, 05:17:15 PM »

At the risk of never being taken seriously again, let me tell you about the UFO I saw several years ago.

A UFO story won't cause us to take you less seriously... Everyone who sticks around for more than 1 post shouldn't be taken seriously (says the guy with 11,000+).

Agreed.

-Nick
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« Reply #102 on: April 03, 2009, 09:27:57 PM »

At the risk of never being taken seriously again, let me tell you about the UFO I saw several years ago.

A UFO story won't cause us to take you less seriously... Everyone who sticks around for more than 1 post shouldn't be taken seriously (says the guy with 11,000+).

Agreed.

-Nick

Thanks...
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« Reply #103 on: April 03, 2009, 10:15:07 PM »

.... and someone who has the Three Stooges as his avatar can't be all that bad, either!  laugh laugh
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« Reply #104 on: April 04, 2009, 11:30:29 PM »

At the risk of never being taken seriously again, let me tell you about the UFO I saw several years ago.

A UFO story won't cause us to take you less seriously... Everyone who sticks around for more than 1 post shouldn't be taken seriously (says the guy with 11,000+).


.... and someone who has the Three Stooges as his avatar can't be all that bad, either!  laugh laugh

LOL!!!   laugh
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 11:31:40 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

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« Reply #105 on: April 07, 2009, 03:38:24 PM »

Not a frequent poster, and this one lean's towards the oddball category, so others will have to judge.

1. I've seen 11 UFOs in my life, two of them were being "chased" by jets out of Patterson AF Base (prob. cause that was the nearest one at the time). At least 2 in retrospect were likely sighting mistakes...things that later were probably airplanes/jets. One I have no idea what it was but I and about 15 others saw this oblong orange ball in the sky float (N to S more or less) for several minutes and then just fade away..visually it appeared about the size of foot ball held at arm's length (but of course much bigger being at a distance). And 1 was definately a plane, though at first it seemed otherwise...I tried very hard to get it to abduct me (I was 17 and stupid) trying to wave it down as its lights swept across the pasture where I was camping with a friend....but it was just a low flying cargo plane. I was disappointed and my friend relieved.

2. Older and wiser I am now inclined to regard most supposed UFO encounters as being of spiritually unwholesome origin. I don't know this...but suspect that it is an accurate ascessment.

3. I don't see the discussion of alien life as necessarily foolish, though it can be. At heart it is a theological question, "What is man?" How we address the question of potential material sentiant life other than our own has a lot to say about who and what we understand ourselves to be.

4. The article by Fr. John Romanides was very interesting, but it raises the question if there is other intellegent life out there which like us is called to be divinized, then can they join the Church?  Could an ET ever be a priest or a Bishop?

5. I would have to also wonder what spiritual structures/bodies/teachings would they have prior to meeting us?

6. While I have serious doubts of other intellegent life out there, though I'm more open to lesser types of life, I sometimes wonder if man could eventually tinker up other sentient life forms out of creatures we have with us already (monkeys, apes, dogs, parrots, raccons, etc.). If so what does that mean about them and us and the Church? Could they join, be baptized, commune, enter holy orders, etc?  Would they not be essentially "aliens" as Fr. John described them, except they are from here, not out there?

Would polyphonic singing by a choir of sentient parrots be less liturgically problematic for them than it is for some human Orthodox?

I know it sounds silly on the surface, but whole question, once past the silliness, forces you to think about some very serioius theology concerning Orthodox anthropology and man's person and place in the univers.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 03:41:13 PM by Seraphim98 » Logged
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« Reply #106 on: April 08, 2009, 08:10:11 PM »

This universe and the forms in it are unique and change is of the very essence of creation and not a product of the fall.

I love Father John, but I have an issue with what he says in red above. If creation was subjected to futility, as St. Paul says, would this not also include the universe? Or does our fall only effect the earth?

…how could any being, on any other planet, NOT be tainted by our fall?

True, it would seem that all within the Universe are tainted......at least it would seem that way. There is a sense of beauty in knowing that God will save the Kosmos.
Universal decay & the eventual Recapitulation of all things seem to compliment each other.


Quote
St. Symeon the New Theologian:

Adam was created with a body that was incorrupt, even though material and not yet spiritual, and he was placed by the Creator God as an immortal king over an incorrupt world, not only over Paradise, but also over the whole creation which was under the heavens… This whole creation in the beginning was incorrupt and was created by God in the manner of Paradise.

[St. Symeon makes it clear that man is on a level of leadership/intelligence unrivaled in all of creation.]

Quote
God knew that our race would multiply to an infinite, innumerable multitude on the earth.

[And here he further makes it clear that mankind as a whole is destined to remain “earth-bound” until the end of this age… i.e. the true Second Coming of Christ]


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Through sin, the cosmos [the universe as a whole] became a place of death and corruption.
-St. Maximus the Confessor

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At the fall the entire visible creation fell into corruption along with man.”
The Patristic Understanding of the Cosmos before the Fall, by Hieromonk Damascene
http://mihaicaragiu.blogspot.com/2008/12/patristic-understanding-of-cosmos.html




In order for any of us to survive in space, we would have to take the "Earth" with us. Men already traveled around the Earth in a space ship, and we already landed on the Moon, but in order for us to live outthere for the long term, we need to take the life(eco-system) of the Planet with us. We would have to mimic Earth, in order to live in space. So a spaceship would have to act like a mini-Earth.......or else we won't survive. There is nothing in the Faith that says we can't multiply the life of the Earth outside of the planet. There is nothing that says we can't have mini-Earths(spaceships/space stations) all over our solar system.

I'm not saying humanity as a whole will live in space. All I'm saying is, some men can live in space......but in order to do so, we will need to take and copy the eco-system of Earth.




JNORM888



Hello ! Isn't there a passage in scripture that say's ,though you hide among the stars i shall find you... I interped it  as ,eventually people will move to other planets , I could be wrong...


There maybe a scripture like that. I gotta find it. Personally I don't see a problem with it. Infact, I think christians should try and build a monastic or semi-monastic community in space.









JNORM888
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 08:10:55 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

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« Reply #107 on: April 09, 2009, 01:07:19 PM »

I vote we hook up with the Russians, and get a monastic colony or two going on Mars...the new High Thebaid.

Of course we must be prepared for the inevitable calendar controversy given the maritan year is twice as long as earth's.
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« Reply #108 on: April 09, 2009, 09:03:52 PM »

I vote we hook up with the Russians, and get a monastic colony or two going on Mars...the new High Thebaid.

Of course we must be prepared for the inevitable calendar controversy given the maritan year is twice as long as earth's.
I can see it now: one faction which observes a lunar calendar based on Phobos complains that the other faction, which follows Deimos, fails to celebrate the feast of St. Delacroix of New Vladivostok Base every 134th Martian year.
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« Reply #109 on: April 09, 2009, 11:03:05 PM »


1. I've seen 11 UFOs in my life,
I've seen one once when I was younger, though I'm fairly sure it was a rock my brother threw at me.
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« Reply #110 on: April 10, 2009, 01:39:03 PM »

Quote
I've seen one once when I was younger, though I'm fairly sure it was a rock my brother threw at me.

Wouldn't that be an identified flying object then?

In my own distant youth my brother and I along with our cousins looked forward the the end of the corn harvest, and the later plowing under.  We would have dirt clod wars. It was great.  We would rip up dead grazed down corn stalks with heavy clumps of earth clinging to their roots and hurl them across the field, and while they fell we would stoop down and snatch up a couple of hard lumps and whip them at the other side so they would be too busy dodging them to miss getting hit by the flying corn stalks.

Normally the dirt clods though hard enough to stay together when thrown broke apart easy enough when they hit...so no damage done.  But occasionally someone would pick up a ball of sun hardened clay that stung like all get out when it landed.

good times. good times...well back to outer space.

Oh..and yes I did see 11...the funny thing is I no longer remember seeing 11...I remember remembering how high I had counted my own sightings back when I actually did remember them. Now I only actually remember three or four of the more noteworthy ones.
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« Reply #111 on: April 10, 2009, 01:42:50 PM »


1. I've seen 11 UFOs in my life,
I've seen one once when I was younger, though I'm fairly sure it was a rock my brother threw at me.

Was it as big as a five story building?   Smiley
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« Reply #112 on: November 02, 2011, 01:19:41 AM »

I vote we hook up with the Russians, and get a monastic colony or two going on Mars...the new High Thebaid.

Of course we must be prepared for the inevitable calendar controversy given the maritan year is twice as long as earth's.


Then why not have two calenders? One universal Earthian church Calender and another according to whatever other planet one is on.

Only one Calender would be needed on spaceships and space-stations. Since we are from Earth, our Calender should go wherever we go.
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« Reply #113 on: November 02, 2011, 09:03:21 AM »

Then why not have two calenders?

Because all other calendars are the Devil!!!
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« Reply #114 on: November 02, 2011, 09:50:13 AM »

I vote we hook up with the Russians, and get a monastic colony or two going on Mars...the new High Thebaid.

Of course we must be prepared for the inevitable calendar controversy given the maritan year is twice as long as earth's.


Then why not have two calenders? One universal Earthian church Calender and another according to whatever other planet one is on.

Only one Calender would be needed on spaceships and space-stations. Since we are from Earth, our Calender should go wherever we go.

Given time dilation, it would take some planning to keep the calendars in sync. Imagine the problems if the astromonks came back to earth and they found their calendar was now 6 months off.
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