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Author Topic: Challenges of Orthodoxy in America And the Role of the Ecumenical Patriarchate  (Read 28478 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #90 on: March 23, 2009, 08:33:53 AM »


You challenged me to substantiate my view and I reluctantly did so: "Are you familiar with the reestablishment of the Bulgarian Church in the 19th century? It was called the Bulgarian Exarchate and covered all of Modern day Bulgaria, almost all of modern day northern Greece, and the current Republic of Macedonia. A German map showing the boundaries may be found at http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Bulgarian-Exarchate-1870-1913.jpg. The reasons were partly the Bulgarian national renaissance and partly the insistence by the Patriarchate to suppress the national awaking/promote Hellenism or Greekness.

Does anyone know if the text of firman restoring the Bulgarian patriarchate is available?  Is their a tomos that abolished it?
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« Reply #91 on: March 23, 2009, 09:13:24 AM »


I was quite pleased to see him adress these issues, which I think are more immediate. If the promotion of Hellenism within the GOA means a reversal of these issues, and not merely a promotion of Greek-ness, then it's something I'd be very supportive of.

On the otherhand to many English-only speaking Orthodox Christians regretfully, Hellenism and Greek-ness are one and the same. It will have to be redefined better and definitely better in practice than it currently is by the Hellenic Churches.

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« Reply #92 on: March 23, 2009, 09:16:27 AM »

It will have to be redefined better and definitely better in practice than it currently is by the Hellenic Churches.
Why?
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« Reply #93 on: March 23, 2009, 09:27:49 AM »

It will have to be redefined better and definitely better in practice than it currently is by the Hellenic Churches.
Why?
Because, as the absurdities and revisionism of the Chief Secretary show, quite a school of big fish don't know that they are wet.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 09:28:05 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #94 on: March 23, 2009, 09:29:19 AM »

It will have to be redefined better and definitely better in practice than it currently is by the Hellenic Churches.
Why?
Because, as the absurdities and revisionism of the Chief Secretary show, quite a school of big fish don't know that they are wet.
Could you be a bit clearer please? What absurdities and revisionism and who are the school of big fish?
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« Reply #95 on: March 23, 2009, 09:45:58 AM »

This American Church is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Are they being "Hellenized"?:
http://www.uocofusa.org/

This American Church is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Are they being "Hellenized"?:
http://www.acrod.org/


This American Church is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Are they being "Hellenized"?:
http://www.goarch.org/archdiocese/otherpatriarchal/alb


This American Church is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Are they being "Hellenized"?:
http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Belarusian_Council_of_Orthodox_Churches_in_North_America
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« Reply #96 on: March 23, 2009, 10:37:41 AM »

Just a side note: The Belarusian parishes are now within ACROD and neither being "Hellenized".
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« Reply #97 on: March 23, 2009, 10:51:53 AM »

It will have to be redefined better and definitely better in practice than it currently is by the Hellenic Churches.
Why?

When I became Orthodox it was through the local Greek Orthodox Church about 5 blocks from my house.  When I initially came into the Orthodox Church I was told by several priests that in order to be Orthodox I must become Hellenized.  When I asked what that meant, their reply was I must " think, act, and speaks as a Greek."  They encouraged me to have my children to learn Greek ( I thought that odd in itself as the parish we  lived in had no Greek School---my godfather a third generation  from Greek emigrants knew only a few words of Greek and could not carry on a conversation with  the few  Old emigrants we had who did speak Greek. Our parish worshipped in the Koine Greek Language, Our Gospel readers knew only phonetic Greek---they did not know what they were reading).  Yes the GOA encourages Hellenism "Not Greek-ness" then they tell us that to understand Hellenism, we must  learn to do Greek dances, use Greek Phrases, work at the annual Greek Festival, and even assure that our Girl children learn to cook Greek Food so they can get a good Greek Orthodox Boy to marry them.

This is why I said that we must learn to separte Hellenism from Greek-ness---I don't think the GOA is ready for that.

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« Reply #98 on: March 23, 2009, 10:52:15 AM »

My parish is part of the ACROD and there are several women named Helen.  I think something is going on.
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« Reply #99 on: March 23, 2009, 11:46:36 AM »

None of this is directed at a single person or post, it's just my feelings from reading several posts in this thread.

I just have to say that I love the sweeping generalizations on this thread that are based on one's individual experience.  I've grown up in the GOA, and have never been told that I have to learn Greek, learn Greek dances (I did that because I wanted to-- my father was a professional dancer), cook Greek (which, even as a chef, I have done very LITTLE Greek cooking in my life-- I'd never even made baklava before the Greek Festival at our parish last year!), or marry a Greek boy (in fact, I would say it was almost the opposite-- my sister married a Chinese man, who was welcomed with open arms both in my family and in our parish-- he's now the treasurer).  Just because a priest or two or three or even fifty have their priorities misplaced does not mean that this is the official stance of the GOA, or that the GOA is not fighting that with all its might.  We have to walk a fine line.  We have to educate the people to bring about change, but not force it such that the people walk away.  Believe me, as a presbytera in one of the largest and oldest GOA parishes in the country (which happens to be the Metropolis Cathedral), it is a VERY fine line.  I don't like all the extra-liturgical Greek based organizations who exist solely to be Greek.  They have no place in the Church and should be moved elsewhere.  But it has to be a gradual transition.  And we are working in that direction.  Having a huge number of friends who are also clergy in the GOA, I can say with much certainty that this is the case in most, if not all, of the GOA parishes (that we are moving away from these things).

Further, if it were true that the Patriarchate, and thus the GOA was "Hellenising" its parishes, or stuck in being Greek, or whatever, then explain to me why we (among others), the Metropolis Cathedral, with over 1000 families, one of the oldest Greek parishes in the GOA, are doing the Liturgy in almost all ENGLISH?!  How is that being stuck in our Greekness?  Our priests serve the Liturgy in English (our early Liturgy on Sundays, done in the METROPOLIS CHAPEL, is about 99% English), we read the Epistle and Gospel in at least both languages, if not only English, the sermons are ALWAYS given in English, etc.  Yes, we do still do some Greek, mostly in the services (such as Orthros) which are attended only by the old Greek ladies, or when the prayers/hymns have not yet been translated into English (or we don't have them at hand). 

Let me give another small example of what I'm talking about... This past Saturday night, we had a visiting bishop from Greece who DOES NOT SPEAK ENGLISH on the throne for Vespers.  During the service, our bishop (Metropolitan +ALEXIOS of Atlanta), who is himself currently sitting on the PATRIARCHAL SYNOD, stood next to me at the chant stand, and, despite the visiting non-English-speaking Bishop on the throne, CHANTED IN ENGLISH!  Half of what he chanted was in English, and I, as well, chanted in English (which he ALWAYS encourages me to do).  If His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, or the Patriarchate itself, is truly trying to Hellenize parishes and refusing to let go of Hellenism, then doesn't the situation I just described absolutely defy logic and defy him?!  I daresay that a bishop who sits on the Patriarchal synod would not go in direct violation of the policies and goals of his hierarch by not only encouraging the usage of English in all his churches (the least of which being his Cathedral), but by himself chanting and liturgizing in English with a visiting bishop present who can testify to this fact!  Do you think he'll be deposed for this?  Because surely the "Hellenizing" Ecumenical Patriarch won't stand for that!  Oh, by the way, another of +ALEXIOS' wonderful programs and visions is translation of the services and music into English/Western notation.  He preaches about it, encourages it, and even brought a priest who does this work into his Metropolis, whose translations and music he is MANDATING be used in the Church.  Is this the work of a "Hellenizing" GOA?  I think not.

I find it hard to understand how people can make such assumptions and generalizations about GOA parishes that they themselves don't attend, and, if anything, have only visited!  Even so, one parish does not define the entire GOA.  One priest does not the entirety of the Church make!

I feel sure I will be fully attacked for this, as it is apparent from this thread that the purple demons of Lent are indeed alive, well, and stirring the pot.  But I felt I must address this, and that I am in a unique position to do so, as I said, coming from the position of being married to one of the priests (and therefore privy to what goes on behind the scenes and the attitude/feelings of the clergy regarding this issue) of one of the largest and most prominent parishes in the GOA.  I do not say this to somehow boast, lest I be attacked for it, simply to emphasize that our parish is one of the leaders in the GOA, and that I think we are moving in the right direction.  No, we won't be able to completely eliminate all aspects of Greek culture by tomorrow (not that the Liturgical language has ANYTHING to do with Greek culture, it doesn't), but we are moving toward a happy medium where "Greek Orthodox" describes only the liturgical tradition from which we descend and to which we ascribe (as opposed to the Russian, Antiochian, and other traditions), and not to an imposition of nationality in God's Church.

Instead of criticizing from our lofty places on high, how about if we all contribute positively and try to help the efforts by educating the faithful?  This should always be our goal, not criticizing and ridiculing our fellow Orthodox and our hierarchs. 
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« Reply #100 on: March 23, 2009, 12:15:50 PM »

What seems odd to me is actually how little is even addressing what was in the speech itself.
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« Reply #101 on: March 23, 2009, 12:25:50 PM »

It will have to be redefined better and definitely better in practice than it currently is by the Hellenic Churches.
Why?
Because, as the absurdities and revisionism of the Chief Secretary show, quite a school of big fish don't know that they are wet.
Could you be a bit clearer please? What absurdities and revisionism and who are the school of big fish?


I posted a reply which just disappeared, going line by line. I'm taking the boys to the museum now, and don't have time to retype.  Lord willing, I will.

In the meantime, the answer to your last question is the EP and the Holy Synod of Constantinople who are trying to foist this "protos" and "Canon 28" nonsense on the rest of us.
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« Reply #102 on: March 23, 2009, 01:03:08 PM »

What seems odd to me is actually how little is even addressing what was in the speech itself.

If you are referring to my post, as I said, I was responding to various posts on this thread.  I was addressing the criticisms, accusations, allegations, and all around negative comments leveled against the Ecumenical Patriarch (and the Patriarchate) and the GOA.  I was addressing the issue of "Hellenizing" the parishes, a refusal to let go of the Greek language and culture, which, I believe, is what was being discussed because of the speech.
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« Reply #103 on: March 23, 2009, 01:28:21 PM »

GreekChef, no, I meant the thread in general.  I actually posted that before reading what you wrote (a lot of which I agree with).
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« Reply #104 on: March 23, 2009, 02:08:21 PM »

^ Ah.  Cool.  Smiley
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« Reply #105 on: March 23, 2009, 09:13:29 PM »

Excellent Post GreekChef. That combined with the fact that the Ecumenical Patriarchate has Ukrainians, Carpatho-Russian Churches, Belorusian Churches and Albanian Churches in the US should (theoretically) help to dispel some misapprehensions; however, given my experience on this forum, may be not.
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« Reply #106 on: March 24, 2009, 01:48:01 AM »

Excellent Post GreekChef. That combined with the fact that the Ecumenical Patriarchate has Ukrainians, Carpatho-Russian Churches, Belorusian Churches and Albanian Churches in the US should (theoretically) help to dispel some misapprehensions; however, given my experience on this forum, may be not.

To be fair though, none of those groups have been incorporated into the structure of the GOA.  Instead we just have overlapping jurisdictions within the same jurisdiction a la the OCA.  Even us under the EP have a long way to go until the dream of a pan-Orthodox jurisdiction under the omniphoron of the Ecumenical Patriarchate is reached. 
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« Reply #107 on: March 24, 2009, 06:00:18 AM »

If Metropolitan Alexios is so wonderful why didn'y he come down to Pensacola, Florida when we had a division in our parish which resulted in families leaving and starting an Antiochian parish. This little city cannot support two Orthoodx Churches.
What also happened in naples with father Han's and what is happening in Panama City, Florida and Gainesvile,Florida
What would his All-Holiness think about this situation?
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« Reply #108 on: March 24, 2009, 07:16:56 AM »

None of this is directed at a single person or post, it's just my feelings from reading several posts in this thread.

I was going to return to reposting my critque of the Chief Secretary.  But you're always a decent person, so I'd thought I'd move my reply to this first.

Quote
I just have to say that I love the sweeping generalizations on this thread that are based on one's individual experience.  I've grown up in the GOA, and have never been told that I have to learn Greek, learn Greek dances (I did that because I wanted to-- my father was a professional dancer), cook Greek (which, even as a chef, I have done very LITTLE Greek cooking in my life-- I'd never even made baklava before the Greek Festival at our parish last year!), or marry a Greek boy (in fact, I would say it was almost the opposite-- my sister married a Chinese man, who was welcomed with open arms both in my family and in our parish-- he's now the treasurer).


I don't doubt your word or at least your viewpoint.

I do know others who have a different story to tell.  There are enough elements, however, to help bolster your (meaning Greekchef's) case.  For instance, I remember going to talk to the dean of the Greek Cathedral here on behalf of someone who had proposed to a Greek girl.  The parents refused, because he wasn't Greek Orthodox, although he was preparing to convert, and even was learning Greek (which was more the shock: he is an "English only" type for everything).  The priest said that he would marry them without any problem, and pulled out the registry and showed me how many mixed couples got married.  Many converted, some did not.  (this, of course, had come up about the number of mixed marriages, with the number of conversions of people who go on to be among the most active.  Like your brother in law).  He did tell me about a man that, because he wanted to marry a Jewess, that he would have to decide, if she didn't convert, between her and his heritage.  Which of course was the proper line for the priest to draw.

So you were not forced to speak.  I know some who had the experience.  And myself, I've had the experience of basically "disappering" while speaking Greek, when I said I wasn't Greek.



Quote
Just because a priest or two or three or even fifty have their priorities misplaced does not mean that this is the official stance of the GOA, or that the GOA is not fighting that with all its might.  We have to walk a fine line.  We have to educate the people to bring about change, but not force it such that the people walk away.  Believe me, as a presbytera in one of the largest and oldest GOA parishes in the country (which happens to be the Metropolis Cathedral), it is a VERY fine line.  I don't like all the extra-liturgical Greek based organizations who exist solely to be Greek.  They have no place in the Church and should be moved elsewhere.  But it has to be a gradual transition.  And we are working in that direction.  Having a huge number of friends who are also clergy in the GOA, I can say with much certainty that this is the case in most, if not all, of the GOA parishes (that we are moving away from these things).
Many of us worry less about GOA and more about the EP.  I knew some missionaries who were at Holy Cross, when "the EP Troika" came, the one bishop exclaiming how proud he was to having brought Hellenism (one of the Chief Secretary's favorite words, it seems) to Australia.  He said the Greek seminarians were as taken aback.  This was in the aftermath of Archb. Iakovos of blessed memory's forced retirement, and I remember the discussions in the Greek Churches at the time, hearing things I never thought I'd hear Greeks say.

Quote
Further, if it were true that the Patriarchate, and thus the GOA was "Hellenising" its parishes, or stuck in being Greek, or whatever, then explain to me why we (among others), the Metropolis Cathedral, with over 1000 families, one of the oldest Greek parishes in the GOA, are doing the Liturgy in almost all ENGLISH?!  How is that being stuck in our Greekness?  Our priests serve the Liturgy in English (our early Liturgy on Sundays, done in the METROPOLIS CHAPEL, is about 99% English), we read the Epistle and Gospel in at least both languages, if not only English, the sermons are ALWAYS given in English, etc.  Yes, we do still do some Greek, mostly in the services (such as Orthros) which are attended only by the old Greek ladies, or when the prayers/hymns have not yet been translated into English (or we don't have them at hand). 

Let me give another small example of what I'm talking about... This past Saturday night, we had a visiting bishop from Greece who DOES NOT SPEAK ENGLISH on the throne for Vespers.  During the service, our bishop (Metropolitan +ALEXIOS of Atlanta), who is himself currently sitting on the PATRIARCHAL SYNOD, stood next to me at the chant stand, and, despite the visiting non-English-speaking Bishop on the throne, CHANTED IN ENGLISH!  Half of what he chanted was in English, and I, as well, chanted in English (which he ALWAYS encourages me to do).  If His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, or the Patriarchate itself, is truly trying to Hellenize parishes and refusing to let go of Hellenism, then doesn't the situation I just described absolutely defy logic and defy him?!  I daresay that a bishop who sits on the Patriarchal synod would not go in direct violation of the policies and goals of his hierarch by not only encouraging the usage of English in all his churches (the least of which being his Cathedral), but by himself chanting and liturgizing in English with a visiting bishop present who can testify to this fact!  Do you think he'll be deposed for this?  Because surely the "Hellenizing" Ecumenical Patriarch won't stand for that!  Oh, by the way, another of +ALEXIOS' wonderful programs and visions is translation of the services and music into English/Western notation.  He preaches about it, encourages it, and even brought a priest who does this work into his Metropolis, whose translations and music he is MANDATING be used in the Church.  Is this the work of a "Hellenizing" GOA?  I think not.

I find it hard to understand how people can make such assumptions and generalizations about GOA parishes that they themselves don't attend, and, if anything, have only visited!  Even so, one parish does not define the entire GOA.  One priest does not the entirety of the Church make!

Quote
I feel sure I will be fully attacked for this, as it is apparent from this thread that the purple demons of Lent are indeed alive, well, and stirring the pot.  But I felt I must address this, and that I am in a unique position to do so, as I said, coming from the position of being married to one of the priests (and therefore privy to what goes on behind the scenes and the attitude/feelings of the clergy regarding this issue) of one of the largest and most prominent parishes in the GOA.  I do not say this to somehow boast, lest I be attacked for it, simply to emphasize that our parish is one of the leaders in the GOA, and that I think we are moving in the right direction.  No, we won't be able to completely eliminate all aspects of Greek culture by tomorrow (not that the Liturgical language has ANYTHING to do with Greek culture, it doesn't), but we are moving toward a happy medium where "Greek Orthodox" describes only the liturgical tradition from which we descend and to which we ascribe (as opposed to the Russian, Antiochian, and other traditions), and not to an imposition of nationality in God's Church.

Instead of criticizing from our lofty places on high, how about if we all contribute positively and try to help the efforts by educating the faithful?  This should always be our goal, not criticizing and ridiculing our fellow Orthodox and our hierarchs. 
At present we (the Antiochians) are having hiearch problems which many are connecting to the EP.  I've received word from three dioceses that the deaneries are trying to decipher the cryptic final reference.   I might refrain from going through the Chief Secretary's speech during Lent, but since the seal is scheduled to be set during Bright Week, we don't have that luxury, if we want to stop Nektarios' "dream."

I apologize if I have shouted down your irenic voice.

And there is no reason to eliminate all aspects of Greek culture, tommorrow or ever.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 07:18:41 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #109 on: March 24, 2009, 10:41:45 AM »

If Metropolitan Alexios is so wonderful why didn'y he come down to Pensacola, Florida when we had a division in our parish which resulted in families leaving and starting an Antiochian parish. This little city cannot support two Orthoodx Churches.
What also happened in naples with father Han's and what is happening in Panama City, Florida and Gainesvile,Florida
What would his All-Holiness think about this situation?

I don't want to get drawn into a nasty exchange during Lent (or ever, for that matter, but especially during Lent).  But I think it's important to respond to the above, precisely because it is Lent and we should be praying rather than condemning.  And because it is pertinent not only to the post above, but to most of the posts on this thread, and to the often prevailing sentiment of people toward their hierarchs in general. 

So, I sincerely say this with love...

This is exactly what I was talking about.  It is terribly tragic to see someone who holds anger and disdain for their bishop over a perceived slight (note that I say "perceived."  I will explain below).  I say to you what I say to everyone who ever complains about a bishop to me... have you prayed for him?

Furthermore, it often happens that people who have some details about a situation assume that they know all the details and are in a position to judge their hierarch for his perceived action/inaction (this is especially true of the EP- everyone loves to judge him based on the little information they have).  I can tell you that, unless one works in one of three or four key positions in the Metropolis office, one doesn't know the whole situation in any of these cases.  I say this with experience.  These types of things are basically NEVER as they seem.  There are always mitigating factors that the people don't know about.  That is for good reason.  Out of their love and mercy for both parish and priest, the bishops don't release the details of these types of situations.  Why?  Lay aside the fact that often the details are confessional.  Despite our demands to know and our sinful feelings of entitlement, we don't NEED to know the details.  And inevitably, knowing them only brings more hurt, more strife, and heightens emotions and sinfulness.  Until we are privy to all of the details, we should give the benefit of the doubt and not condemn His Eminence +ALEXIOS or any other bishop.  Even WITH all the details, none of us should be condemning hierarchs anyway.  We should be praying for them.  That's our job.

It saddens me to see these situations, and how the bishop is always the one blamed.  It particularly saddens me in our Metropolis, as I have a great love and respect for Metropolitan +ALEXIOS.  I may not agree with every decision he makes, but I always try to step back and remember that I don't have all the information, and even if I did, I'm not the bishop.  He is.  And my job as a lay person is to obey.  That is not always easy when one is married to a priest in the bishop's charge.  It often requires a lot of prayer and self-restraint to take that step back and remind oneself that our job is to obey, whether we like it our not.  Even if he is wrong, he is human too, and has flaws, just like the rest of us.  If he has made a mistake, we should, in Christian love, forgive him.  Love keeps no record of wrongs, as the apostle tells us, correct?  If we are holding a grudge, that is our sin.  We should be loving and forgiving him.  Besides, I certainly couldn't do his job better than him.  I have neither the patience nor the spirtual discernment, the love or the compassion, the humility or the mercy that +ALEXIOS has.  So, personally, I will be taking the plank out of my own eye before I try to remove the speck from his.

As for His All-Holiness' opinion of those situations, I couldn't begin to comment.  I would imagine he is aware of them.  But he, too, knows what his role is, and it is not to interfere in the day to day administrations of another bishop's parishes.  When talking about following policies and goals (such as the usage of English), that is one thing, but to interfere in administration when it is unwarranted and unnecessary is something else.

Please forgive me if I am offending with my words.  It is not my intent. 

Pray for me a sinner,
Presbytera Mari
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« Reply #110 on: March 24, 2009, 11:00:24 AM »

I was going to return to reposting my critque of the Chief Secretary.  But you're always a decent person, so I'd thought I'd move my reply to this first.
Thank you for your kind words, as always, Isa.  Please pray for me...

Quote
I don't doubt your word or at least your viewpoint.

I do know others who have a different story to tell.  There are enough elements, however, to help bolster your (meaning Greekchef's) case.  For instance, I remember going to talk to the dean of the Greek Cathedral here on behalf of someone who had proposed to a Greek girl.  The parents refused, because he wasn't Greek Orthodox, although he was preparing to convert, and even was learning Greek (which was more the shock: he is an "English only" type for everything).  The priest said that he would marry them without any problem, and pulled out the registry and showed me how many mixed couples got married.  Many converted, some did not.  (this, of course, had come up about the number of mixed marriages, with the number of conversions of people who go on to be among the most active.  Like your brother in law).  He did tell me about a man that, because he wanted to marry a Jewess, that he would have to decide, if she didn't convert, between her and his heritage.  Which of course was the proper line for the priest to draw.

So you were not forced to speak.  I know some who had the experience.  And myself, I've had the experience of basically "disappering" while speaking Greek, when I said I wasn't Greek.
I know others as well who have a different story.  I have had these experiences occasionally as well.  I have had a yiayia here or there dismiss me outright because my Greek "isn't good enough for a presbytera."  Of course it happens.  My point was just that these experiences do not represent the entire GOA and we should be big enough to look past one or two (or even ten or twenty) experiences like this to see the big picture.  I know that's difficult sometimes, believe me.  I have my days... But we should try, nonetheless.

Quote
Many of us worry less about GOA and more about the EP.  I knew some missionaries who were at Holy Cross, when "the EP Troika" came, the one bishop exclaiming how proud he was to having brought Hellenism (one of the Chief Secretary's favorite words, it seems) to Australia.  He said the Greek seminarians were as taken aback.  This was in the aftermath of Archb. Iakovos of blessed memory's forced retirement, and I remember the discussions in the Greek Churches at the time, hearing things I never thought I'd hear Greeks say.
I can imagine they were taken aback!  I would have been!  Again, though, my point was that one priest or one bishop does not the entirety of the church make.  So just because one person feels that way (even if it were the EP himself) doesn't mean that we should throw out the baby with the bathwater.  His All Holiness Bartholomew will not be the last ecumenical patriarch.  But if we condemn the Patriarchate (the office) for his actions and opinions and remove him from the diptychs or lower the See of Constantinople because we don't like him, then the damage we will have done will be terrible and probably irreparable (at least for our souls-- these things are not to be taken lightly).

Quote
At present we (the Antiochians) are having hiearch problems which many are connecting to the EP.  I've received word from three dioceses that the deaneries are trying to decipher the cryptic final reference.   I might refrain from going through the Chief Secretary's speech during Lent, but since the seal is scheduled to be set during Bright Week, we don't have that luxury, if we want to stop Nektarios' "dream."

I'm afraid I'm not clear on what your talking about (I'm not up on all my cross-jurisdiction church situations and the politics behind thema).  If you get a minute, feel free to PM me and fill me in.  I'd be interested to know.

Quote
I apologize if I have shouted down your irenic voice.
No apologies necessary.  Having different opinions doesn't mean there can't be peace.  It's not the difference of opinion that is the problem, it's the condemnation, judgment, accusations, allegations, and all around negativity that seem to come with different opinions around here (that's not directed at you-- your post is anything but negative.  Thank you for that).

Quote
And there is no reason to eliminate all aspects of Greek culture, tommorrow or ever.
I'm glad to hear (*read*) that, and do appreciate it.  It does get rather daunting and hurtful to read the things people say on here about the EP, other bishops, the GOA, and Greeks.  It's exhausting sometimes...
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« Reply #111 on: March 24, 2009, 11:07:15 AM »

Quote
Even us under the EP have a long way to go until the dream of a pan-Orthodox jurisdiction under the omniphoron of the Ecumenical Patriarchate is reached.

It's a good first step, and generally one not acknowledged by the EP = Evil crowd.

What does Metropolitan Alexios have to do with this thread (addressing a different post)?  Do people imagine there is a single jurisdiction anywhere in this country without major pastoral issues somewhere?
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« Reply #112 on: March 24, 2009, 12:30:04 PM »

If Metropolitan Alexios is so wonderful why didn'y he come down to Pensacola, Florida when we had a division in our parish which resulted in families leaving and starting an Antiochian parish. This little city cannot support two Orthoodx Churches.
What also happened in naples with father Han's and what is happening in Panama City, Florida and Gainesvile,Florida
What would his All-Holiness think about this situation?

Oh, you're from Pensacola.  We can talk about this one via PM if you wish - truly a tragic situation.
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« Reply #113 on: March 24, 2009, 03:15:14 PM »

GreekChef said
Quote
...our parish is one of the leaders in the GOA, and that I think we are moving in the right direction. No, we won't be able to completely eliminate all aspects of Greek culture by tomorrow (not that the Liturgical language has ANYTHING to do with Greek culture, it doesn't), but we are moving toward a happy medium where "Greek Orthodox" describes only the liturgical tradition from which we descend and to which we ascribe (as opposed to the Russian, Antiochian, and other traditions), and not to an imposition of nationality in God's Church.
Dear Presvytera Mari (sp?), thank you for this most kind, balanced and forward looking input. The GOA can indeed be, not only the most numerous and prosperous of all Eparchies of the Patriarchate, but also the most enlightened one.

Quote
Instead of criticizing from our lofty places on high, how about if we all contribute positively and try to help the efforts by educating the faithful?  This should always be our goal, not criticizing and ridiculing our fellow Orthodox and our hierarchs.
Unfortunately, sometimes our positive contributions and our efforts to educate the faithful must include criticizing our fellow Orthodox (including our hierarchs).

As one of those who criticized the unfortunate presentation by the Chief Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Constantinople Patriarchate, I must admit that I was incensed at his allegations and my language and tone certainly must have reflected my emotions. I apologize for this as it was not conducive to proper discourse. However, there are many important issues that must be discussed.

One of the major arguments that the Patriarchate has been using to justify its claim to universal primacy is its stance that it has never forced anybody to be Hellenized or to become Greek. Indeed, there is some current evidence that the Patriarchate is embracing geographically and ethnically disparate subordinate churches without any requirement for their Hellenization (Ozgeorge actually listed a number of them in a recent posting).

The problem for me was the Chief Secretary's claim that "...(the Patriarchate) never Hellenized, not even attempted to Hellenize the nations to which it gave through its apostolic missions the undying light of Christ." This is not true for the treatment given to the Bulgarian nation. The Patriarchate over the centuries disregarded the desire of the Bulgarian people to use their own language and clergy. I don't know what the Chief Secretary's definition of Hellenism is but, whatever the motivation, the denial of Bulgarian language and culture when the only other alternative is Greek must mean something. If this is not what the Chief Secretary meant, then I apologize to him. Nonetheless it does not change history and the plain meaning of language.
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« Reply #114 on: March 24, 2009, 03:42:19 PM »

His Holiness Patriarch Kirill refers to the "demons of feeble impertinence" - taken to be an understated and oblique reference to the speech at Holy Cross of the Chief Secretary of the Sacred Synod.


Translated from: http://www.mospat.ru/index.php?page=44528

On the Week of the Cross His All Holiness Patriarch Kyrill sends a letter to His Beatitude Jonah, Metropolitan of All America and Canada

On 22 March, 2009 during the Week of the Cross His Beatitude Jonah, Metropolitan of All America and Canada served Divine Liturgy at the St. Nicholas Cathedral in New York (Moscow Patriarchate) with the blessing of His All Holiness Kyrill, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia and at the invitation of the Administrator of the Patriarchal Parishes in the USA Bishop Merkurii, Bishop of Zaraisk. The leader of the Russian Orthodox Church sent a letter of greeting to His Beatitude Jonah, Archbishop of Washington and New York, Metropolitan of All America and Canada which was proclaimed upon completing the Divine Liturgy. The complete text of His All Holiness Kyrill, Patriarch of Mocow can be found below.

Your Beatitude!

I sincerely welcome your visit to the St. Nicholas Cathedral of the Moscow Patriarchate in the city of New York, this memorable and holy place connected with the life and service of St. Tikhon.

Your first visit as head of the Orthodox Church in America to the Representation of the Moscow Patriarchate in the USA and to a parish of the Russian Orthodox Church comes during the week of the Cross, when the Honorable Cross stands before us for reverential worship and adoration. May the *invincible and inscrutable power of the honorable and life-giving Cross* strengthen the love between our Churches and overcome the *demons of feeble impertinence.*

Having passed over the course of Great Lent in peace, I wish you a joyous Pascha. I await the upcoming visit of Your Beatitude in Moscow.

With love in the Lord,
Kyrill
Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia


[*Emphasis in original.]
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« Reply #115 on: March 24, 2009, 05:44:45 PM »

Cleveland..I PMed you using the message system on here..Your AOL mail is not activated..I'd like to get more views concerning our situation here...Im sure there is enough blame to go around but its very sad..families are torn apart and as I said earlier this small town cannot support two Orthodox parishes..
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« Reply #116 on: March 24, 2009, 05:46:10 PM »

GreekChef said
Quote
...our parish is one of the leaders in the GOA, and that I think we are moving in the right direction. No, we won't be able to completely eliminate all aspects of Greek culture by tomorrow (not that the Liturgical language has ANYTHING to do with Greek culture, it doesn't), but we are moving toward a happy medium where "Greek Orthodox" describes only the liturgical tradition from which we descend and to which we ascribe (as opposed to the Russian, Antiochian, and other traditions), and not to an imposition of nationality in God's Church.
Dear Presvytera Mari (sp?), thank you for this most kind, balanced and forward looking input. The GOA can indeed be, not only the most numerous and prosperous of all Eparchies of the Patriarchate, but also the most enlightened one.

Quote
Instead of criticizing from our lofty places on high, how about if we all contribute positively and try to help the efforts by educating the faithful?  This should always be our goal, not criticizing and ridiculing our fellow Orthodox and our hierarchs.
Unfortunately, sometimes our positive contributions and our efforts to educate the faithful must include criticizing our fellow Orthodox (including our hierarchs).
I understand the idea behind this, and to a degree, I agree with you.  But I firmly believe that criticism must be done only when one has all the facts.  Further, criticism should be done in truth and love, not with anger, disrespect, and disdain (that's not directed at you, it's just a generality).  We should attempt to set our biases aside, our personal experiences that have colored our judgment aside and criticize such that it is in the best interests of the people AND the hierarch.

Quote
As one of those who criticized the unfortunate presentation by the Chief Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Constantinople Patriarchate, I must admit that I was incensed at his allegations and my language and tone certainly must have reflected my emotions. I apologize for this as it was not conducive to proper discourse. However, there are many important issues that must be discussed.
Please don't apologize to me.  I'm not the forum police.  Smiley  You owe me no apologies.  I know that this is an emotional topic for many of us, myself included.

Quote
One of the major arguments that the Patriarchate has been using to justify its claim to universal primacy is its stance that it has never forced anybody to be Hellenized or to become Greek. Indeed, there is some current evidence that the Patriarchate is embracing geographically and ethnically disparate subordinate churches without any requirement for their Hellenization (Ozgeorge actually listed a number of them in a recent posting).

The problem for me was the Chief Secretary's claim that "...(the Patriarchate) never Hellenized, not even attempted to Hellenize the nations to which it gave through its apostolic missions the undying light of Christ." This is not true for the treatment given to the Bulgarian nation. The Patriarchate over the centuries disregarded the desire of the Bulgarian people to use their own language and clergy. I don't know what the Chief Secretary's definition of Hellenism is but, whatever the motivation, the denial of Bulgarian language and culture when the only other alternative is Greek must mean something. If this is not what the Chief Secretary meant, then I apologize to him. Nonetheless it does not change history and the plain meaning of language.

I wish I knew enough about the history of which you speak, but unfortunately I don't know enough to comment.  IMHO, though, again, we should be careful about criticizing the hierarchy when we don't have all the facts and don't know what mitigating circumstances there may have been.  I'm not saying we should never criticize, for I agree there are times when that is appropriate and necessary.  I'm not sure I have the discernment needed to make the distinction of when those times are.  I think, though, that the appropriate times are situations when we are intimately involved and knowledgeable of all the details (such as being the parent of a victim of a corrupt priest), not when we make judgments from afar without knowing anything but what the press and history books tell us.  My "qualifier," I guess you could say, would be that question: do I know ALL the facts?  After that would be: am I being critical out of anger, disdain, pride, and sinfulness?  Can I stand back and look at the situation with an open heart, discernment, humility, and prayer?

As I said before, the Chief Secretary's delivery was a bit blunt, and maybe not so diplomatic, but for the most part, I agree with him in what he said.
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« Reply #117 on: March 24, 2009, 08:52:23 PM »

Here is an assessment just to hand of the Very Reverend Chief Secretary's speech.  It comes from Harry Coin whom most will know as a very prominent layman in the Greek Orthodox Church in America.

He is a prolific writer so I'll split his message into two or three sections.

This is something which it would be easier to read on a website but it has not been uploaded to one. 
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« Reply #118 on: March 24, 2009, 08:53:54 PM »

Part 1

A response to  "Very Reverend Archimandrite Dr. Elpidophoros
Lambriniadis: Challenges of Orthodoxy in America And the Role of the
Ecumenical Patriarchate, Chief Secretary of the Holy and Sacred Synod,
Chapel of the Holy Cross, March 16, 2009", By  Harry Coin



I feel compelled to offer some extended responses interposed in the text
of the archimandrite's speech.  The reason I write this is that I think
not only survival, but growth for all the Orthodox of whatever ancestral
origin is important -- and not as a cult with obscurantist rules amid
covered up sexual and financial shenanigans among the leaders, but as a
transparent and worthwhile example of how to struggle ever upward and
onward.

-----------------------------------

Mr Coin has very kindly just placed his message on a website

http://www.n4comm.com/LambridesResponse.htm

He says it will be there for "a little while."   I am sure that even if it has to be moved it will remain accessible to the public elsewhere.
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« Reply #119 on: March 26, 2009, 03:14:57 PM »

At present we (the Antiochians) are having hiearch problems which many are connecting to the EP.  I've received word from three dioceses that the deaneries are trying to decipher the cryptic final reference.   I might refrain from going through the Chief Secretary's speech during Lent, but since the seal is scheduled to be set during Bright Week, we don't have that luxury, if we want to stop Nektarios' "dream."
I'm afraid I'm not clear on what your talking about (I'm not up on all my cross-jurisdiction church situations and the politics behind thema).  If you get a minute, feel free to PM me and fill me in.  I'd be interested to know.

Out of respect for you and GI Day, and to honor St. Gregory V of Constantinople, I didn't post yesterday on this thread.  Just in case I might talk out of season.

It is going around the Antiochian deaneries, that there is talk that the Patriarch of Antioch might sell the archdiocese out to the EP, and that is in part what is behind the latest directives.  Hence the Chief Secretary's closing sentence is of great interest.

Now, not that we think that we are big potatoes or that, but just pawns in the show down between the EP and the PoM in this Great Synod that the EP is pushing for, and the Chief Secretary underlined.  It is harder for the EP to make his "28 canon" argument as long as Antioch, an older Patriarchate that owes nothing of her to existence to either Constantinople nor the Ecumenical Councils, has an Archdiocese here, with deeper and MORE CANONICAL roots, and autonomy.
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« Reply #120 on: March 26, 2009, 04:10:20 PM »

Quote
Let me add that the refusal to recognize primacy within the Orthodox Church, a primacy that necessarily cannot but be embodied by a primus (that is by a bishop who has the prerogative of being the first among his fellow bishops) constitutes nothing less than heresy. It cannot be accepted, as often it is said, that the unity among the Orthodox Churches is safeguarded by either a common norm of faith and worship or by the Ecumenical Council as an institution. Both of these factors are impersonal while in our Orthodox theology the principle of unity is always a person. Indeed, in the level of the Holy Trinity the principle of unity is not the divine essence but the Person of the Father (“Monarchy” of the Father), at the ecclesiological level of the local Church the principle of unity is not the presbyterium or the common worship of the Christians but the person of the Bishop, so to in the Pan-Orthodox level the principle of unity cannot be an idea nor an institution but it needs to be, if we are to be consistent with our theology, a person.
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« Reply #121 on: March 26, 2009, 04:23:50 PM »

It is going around the Antiochian deaneries, that there is talk that the Patriarch of Antioch might sell the archdiocese out to the EP, and that is in part what is behind the latest directives.  Hence the Chief Secretary's closing sentence is of great interest.

Who would pay for such a sale, and what kind of payment would be made?
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« Reply #122 on: March 26, 2009, 04:45:36 PM »

To start, a side note:
Quote
You have, my brothers and sisters, the privilege to be citizens of a country which determines to a great extent the fate of many people on our planet
With all the quibbling about how much the GOA versus the CoG is responsible for the upkeep of the EP (and Alexandria and Jerusalem.  On a more positive note, the GoC does a LOT for the Church in Albania (and not just for the Greeks there) and at least in Romania in the former Soviet Block), this goes to the heart of the matter.  Whether, in the terms of politics, the EP survives in Constantinople depends on whether the Orthodox can pressure the U.S. and the E.U. to pressure the Turk to allow it. Moscow possesses its pressures, but the issue differs there.
Btw, during the Soviet period, Antioch received aid from the PoM (allowed under the guise of Soviet Diplomacy).  I don't know if this has dropped, as the needs of Russia have increased since liberation from the Bolshevik yoke.  And I don't know how much U.S.-Syrian relations put a strain on support from the Archdiocese here to Antioch.  Something to consider, in view of the recent "changes," and how the Chief Secretary's little parley plays in this.
Quote
a country where pioneering technologies as well as ideas and philosophies have been discovered and disseminated. The cultural peculiarities and characteristics of the United States find also a reflection in, as it is only natural, and exercise an influence on the religious communities of this country. It is far from accidental that none of the “traditional” religions (coming either from Europe or elsewhere), remained the same once they were replanted on American soil.
The configuration of the Church and of the Faith didn’t remain the same when it was transplanted from Jerusalem into the soil of the Greco-Roman world, nor when the Roman Emperor converted, nor when Constantinople rose, nor when she fell, nor when Greece (and the CoG) achieved independence from Constantinople/Istanbul: certainly not after Greece was integrated into the EU.  How does the United States differ from Constantinople or Greece in this principle?
Quote
The same change can be of course observed in the case of Orthodoxy, whose appearance and development in America was influenced by certain indeterminable factors.
Among those “certain indeterminable factors,” does he count the Bolshevik revolution and the havoc it wrought on the Metropolia of North America, and the EP’s eagerness to capitalize on it?
See below.
Quote
The first and main challenge that American Orthodoxy faces is that it has been developed in a region which, from an administrative and technical point, is that of diaspora.
No.  America, from an administrative and technical point, was an Archdiocese of the Russian Orthodox Church, spreading from the part of the Russian Empire in America.  American Orthodoxy developed because the Russian colonial authorities visited Valaam Monastery and requested that missionaries come to the colonies, and founded what became the Metropolia of North America, an Archdiocese of the Patriarchate of Moscow.  It turned out to be a mistake on the part of the colonial authorities, because the monks protested the treatment of the natives, and complained to the Czar, to the point that the colonial authorities forbade contact between the natives and the monks.
The monks, however, went on and converted the natives.  As the Librarian of Congress records, in the Congressional Record (91st Cong. Vol. 116, No. 133 Aug. 4, 1970):
Quote
The mission (8 monks and deacons, headed by the Archmandirite Joseph (who was later drowned [Joasphat drowned in 1799, when he was returning from being ordained as the first bishop of the See of Kodiak, AK, the Holy Synod creating the auxiliary diocese for him and, in their election of him, directed the Bishop of Irkutsk in Siberia to ordain him alone, the only known record of the Russian practicing the economy of ordination by one bishop, used only in dire situations, indicating the importance they placed on the Alaskan mission]) landed at St. Paul's Harbor, Kodiak in September of 1794.  Within a year, over 7,000 native Americans had been baptized, mostly Aleuts.  Conflicts developed with the Russian-American Trading Company...over the treatment of the Alaskan natives, whose rights the missionaries upheld.  In 1800 [the colonial administration] placed the members of the mission under house arrest and forbade contact with the natives.  The following year, the missionaries administered the oath of allegiance to the Czar to the natives in an attempt to extend imperial protection over them....Father Herman represents the flowering of Russian monastic spirituality in America.  The survival of Orthodoxy in Alaska has been attributed to the zeal of the first missionaries and of their native converts, the absence of racism in the Russian mission and its leaders and such contemporary elements as the use of the vernacular (in the liturgy), the cultivation of a self-relient Church, and an indigenous (native) clergy. The Russian American mission derived much of its strength from the leadership of the first Archbishop of Moscow, founder of the Orthodox Missionary Society, and one of the greatest figures Russian Church history-and the father of Alaskan anthropology. It was [Met. St. Innocent] Veniaminov who firmly established the policy of protecting native tribal rights and who introduced both Aleut and Tlinglit into the liturgy [and had served the Diocese of Alaska as across the Aleutians and down into San Francisco, before assuming the see of Moscow].  However the influence of a life such as that of [St.] Father Herman cannot be underestimating in explaining the ardent faith of the natives whose religious traditions have survived to this day, despite many trials. 
http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Various_Photos/Glorification_of_St._Herman_of_Alaska/30.shtml

[the record also records accurately that St. Herman was the first glorification of any saint on North American soil].

Among those trials was the Czar selling his American possessions to the U.S. on October 7/18, 1867.  Although the treaties contained guarentees on "that the churches which have been built...shall remain the property of such members of the Greek Oriental Church...as may chose to worship therein," and full citizenship for the Russians who stayed, these promises were not kept.  The U.S. also excepted the "uncivilized native tribes" (not specifying what of "civilized" tribes, as the Orthodox ones were literate, thanks to the missionaries. In fact, St. Innocent wrote his "The Indication of the Pathway into the Kindgom of Heaven" in Aleut, and then translated it into Russia when he assumed the See of Moscow, whence it became a Russian Classic.  Similar material intended for the Alaskans and in their languages ended up in the Russian Church).
http://www.asna.ca/alaska/

[on the Orthodox mission in America, "Orthodox Alaska: a theology of mission," by Michael Oleska (from his dissertation in Theology at Presov, CR)
http://books.google.com/books?id=r6iwMR-xoEIC&dq=alaskan+orthodox+texts&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=wWnk-f1723&sig=CvLT_5NGAB0CzR6Hz-mOvBxdZz0&hl=en&ei=M9jLSdOoC87qlQeY5snjCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA223,M1
reporting the slander of the Russian-American Company against the monks (as regards administering to the Alaskans the oath of allegiance to the Czar]:
Quote
...is replete with distortions and fabrications...That the clergy were were inciting the Natives to assert their freedom and that the company insisted that they obey Baranov's [the governor] indicates where the real issues lay.  Hieromonk Iuvenalii traveled alone and unarmed, so that it was beyond his personal strength to force anyone to submit to baptism.  Two centuries after his visit the villages he baptized have remained overwhelmingly loyal to Orthodoxy.  The historical evidence substantiates the monks', not the company's account.  Had the Kenai, Chugach or Iliamna people been forced to accept Christianity, they would have abandoned it as soon as the missionaries left town.  Instead, they have remained steadfast in their allegience, not to any earthly tsar, but to the King of Kings and His Church.  The martyr St. Juvenaly did his work well.

The Russians lost their homes and either returned to Russia, or joined the Russians in San Francisco.  The Congress then split Alaska into 10 districts, and gave each district to a Protestant denomination to "educate."  Congress erected a statue in Sitka (the See of the Diocese of the Aleutians and Alaska of the Russian Church) of Dr. Sheldon Jackson, dedicated to him as "the first Christian missionary in Alaska," who came in 1877 (i.e. nearly a century after St. Herman) to oversee this.  (the museum in his honor, again in Sitka, houses his collection of the cultures that he engaged in obliterating).  His aide in this, the Tsimshian Rev. Edward Marsden (the "first Alaskan Native to be ordained in the ministry" in 1898, i.e. 73 years after St. Fr. Jacob Netsetov, the first Aleut Orthodox priest was ordained) tried to convert the Tlingit, who converted to Orthodoxy as a nation AFTER the Russians left.  In fact, in 1897 "the Tlingit Orthodox Chiefs" petitioned the U.S. President
Quote
The reason for this (petition) is following; because here we cannot get any satisfaction to our just and lawful demands. We know that the Russian Government at the time of the transfer of Alaska to the U.S. did not sell us as slaves to America, but left us some rights and privileges which were later made lawful and firm by the U.S.
and also requested that the Imperial Russian ambassador send an envoy to Sitka to monitor the Americans.  The ruling bishop of the Orthodox diocese also attempted to influence the American president to fulfill its pledges.
http://www.alaskool.org/projects/native_gov/recollections/peratrovich/Elizabeth_1.htm

In the district given to the Luterans, someone hit on the idea of getting Sami (then Lapps) from Scandinavia to settle in Alaska with their reindeer.  The Sami men would marry the Alaskan women and make them good Lutherans, and the reindeer would give them a livelihood.  The Sami did marry, but these Orthodox wives converted their husbands, leaving an Orthodox population which has Nordic surnames, Sami y chromosones, and Amerindian faces.  The reindeer ran off with a herd of caribou, and were never seen again.

Of course, the real irony is that these Sami came from the neighborhood of Valaam, the Monastery from which came St. Herman to enlighten America, and the Sami as far as Njávdán/Neiden Norway had embraced Orthodoxy:

Quote
St.Georgs chapel was built in 1565. It is by the Neiden river, not far from the road. A legend says that the holy Trifon baptized the Sámi people in the river, and after that the water in the Neiden river was considered holy. Every year in the last weekend of august there is a orthodoxy ceremony at the chapel and the holy water is a part of the ceremony.




http://www.ub.uit.no/baser/arkinord/data/media/359/neiden01-med.jpg
http://www.publish.diaspora.ru/gazeta/articles/i/russia021_1_1.jpg
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.pasvikelva.no/ep_bilder/3/258-1973a4cb1a698164f5f75ad156ce21fa.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.pasvikelva.no/index.php%3Fpage_id%3D4%26article_id%3D64%26lang_id%3D2&usg=__ZgP8Zgrl19GDeOn747QqE6ICXUU=&h=78&w=78&sz=7&hl=en&start=13&tbnid=qXOlVNErtpZqmM:&tbnh=73&tbnw=73&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSt.%2BGeorge%2BNeiden%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den

Quote
A large graveyard surrounds the chapel. According to tradition, there is holy water in a pool in the river above the waterfall. This water was used for purification and baptisms. It is believed that the chapel was consecrated on the 24th of June 1565, as the chapel for the Eastern Sámi 'siida' in Neiden. (A 'siida' was the fundamental unit of the traditional Sámi society, indicating both the occupied area and the family group(s) making use of it.) The Russian Orthodox faith became the religion practiced by the Eastern Sámi, subsequent to the influence of the monk Trifon and the monastery in Petchenga.

Neiden, located in the municipality of Sør-Varanger, historically has been a seasonal settlement for the Skolt Sámi. According to written sources, the Skolts have been influenced by evangelising since the middle of the 16th century. The missionaries were sent from Russian monasteries. The present chapel is Norway's smallest sacred building and it houses 16 Russian icon panels. Each panel is at least 100 years old. As Sámi cultural monuments, both the chapel and the icons are automatically protected under the Cultural Heritage Act.
http://www.ub.uit.no/baser/arkinord/categories.php?cat_id=359

http://www.ub.uit.no/baser/arkinord/data/media/359/neiden02-med.jpg

God preserve the Indigenous Nations, multiply them and number them among the Great Commission!

This region was evangelized when the Met. of Moscow became the Patriarch of Moscow, All the Russias and Northern Lands."  Or was Constantinople in charge of the souls of these "Barbarians?"
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« Reply #123 on: March 26, 2009, 04:52:26 PM »

Mr Coin has very kindly just placed his message on a website

http://www.n4comm.com/LambridesResponse.htm

He says it will be there for "a little while."   I am sure that even if it has to be moved it will remain accessible to the public elsewhere.

Oh, thank you so very much for this. I am only halfway through it, and there are so many things I've read that make me want to shout, "Sing it, brother!" (in a very Orthodox way, of course).


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« Reply #124 on: March 26, 2009, 04:59:10 PM »

Is this the Mr. Coin of OCL fame?
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« Reply #125 on: March 26, 2009, 05:03:11 PM »

It is going around the Antiochian deaneries, that there is talk that the Patriarch of Antioch might sell the archdiocese out to the EP, and that is in part what is behind the latest directives.  Hence the Chief Secretary's closing sentence is of great interest.

Who would pay for such a sale, and what kind of payment would be made?

The CoG, similar to ones the Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarch of Jerusalem have received.
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« Reply #126 on: March 26, 2009, 05:13:13 PM »

It is going around the Antiochian deaneries, that there is talk that the Patriarch of Antioch might sell the archdiocese out to the EP, and that is in part what is behind the latest directives.  Hence the Chief Secretary's closing sentence is of great interest.

Who would pay for such a sale, and what kind of payment would be made?

The CoG, similar to ones the Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarch of Jerusalem have received.
I doubt Greeks, real ones in Hellas, want to pay for that.
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« Reply #127 on: March 26, 2009, 05:13:40 PM »

The CoG, similar to ones the Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarch of Jerusalem have received.

If such a thing were to happen, would the Antiochian Archdiocese remain as a distinct entity like ACROD, or would it simply be combined with the GOA since both share, at least in theory, a common liturgical tradition?
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« Reply #128 on: March 26, 2009, 06:51:25 PM »

Is anybody else having trouble with their postings?

Two of mine have appeared in this thread in the last 15 minutres and now they have disappeared!
Not recently, but as I said, a whole post disappeared that I'm trying to reconstruct now.
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« Reply #129 on: March 26, 2009, 06:53:52 PM »

It is going around the Antiochian deaneries, that there is talk that the Patriarch of Antioch might sell the archdiocese out to the EP, and that is in part what is behind the latest directives.  Hence the Chief Secretary's closing sentence is of great interest.

Who would pay for such a sale, and what kind of payment would be made?
The CoG, similar to ones the Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarch of Jerusalem have received.
I doubt Greeks, real ones in Hellas, want to pay for that.
As is often pointed out here, those in the "New Lands" are under the EP.
The CoG, similar to ones the Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarch of Jerusalem have received.

If such a thing were to happen, would the Antiochian Archdiocese remain as a distinct entity like ACROD, or would it simply be combined with the GOA since both share, at least in theory, a common liturgical tradition?
You'll have to ask others: my job is make sure we don't find out.
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« Reply #130 on: March 26, 2009, 06:54:05 PM »

The discussion about the clothing restrictions placed on the clergy in Constantinople has been moved here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20261.msg304766.html#msg304766
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« Reply #131 on: March 26, 2009, 07:09:48 PM »

Alaska didn't become a US State until 1959 when the GOA was already entrenched in the USA.

Since the District of Alaska lasted from 1867 to 1959, to the Ecumenical Patriarchate's eyes, Alaska was seen as barbarian lands (just like the Philippines, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, et al.); Hence, after 1867, the Russians no longer existed in Alaska which meant that the Russian Orthodox Church no longer existed in American territory.

California was admitted to the US in 1850; 17 years before Seward's Folly.  The Russian Orthodox were already on US soil.  54 years after Alaska was purchased, this knowledge was used to justify the Pat. Meletios' grab of the entire North American Continent, later divided into 4 Metropolitanates and later subdivided into 8 sub-Metropolitanates.

Wow, Isa's posts are simply enlightening.   Grin  Roll Eyes  Grin

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« Reply #132 on: March 26, 2009, 07:26:06 PM »

It is going around the Antiochian deaneries, that there is talk that the Patriarch of Antioch might sell the archdiocese out to the EP, and that is in part what is behind the latest directives.  Hence the Chief Secretary's closing sentence is of great interest.

Who would pay for such a sale, and what kind of payment would be made?
The CoG, similar to ones the Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarch of Jerusalem have received.
I doubt Greeks, real ones in Hellas, want to pay for that.
As is often pointed out here, those in the "New Lands" are under the EP.
The CoG, similar to ones the Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarch of Jerusalem have received.
I really doubt this rumour, but if it is true, I will make it my life's work to ensure that such a stupid "purchase" never comes to pass.

Quote
If such a thing were to happen, would the Antiochian Archdiocese remain as a distinct entity like ACROD, or would it simply be combined with the GOA since both share, at least in theory, a common liturgical tradition?
You'll have to ask others: my job is make sure we don't find out.
We are share the same goal then.

But I really think these rumours are nothing more than just that- rumours.
Firstly, how does one "sell" an Archdiocese? What is one selling? The Church property? That I can accept as a possibility, but to sell an "Archdiocese" is impossible. What are you selling when you put an Archdiocese "up for sale"? the Goodwill of the business? The Bishops?, the Clergy? the Faithful?
At any rate, no one in their right mind would "buy" an Archdiocese in the hope that the Faithful of it will continue to give their money to the new overlords- it's just not good investment, particularly in this case.
Secondly, who in their right mind would take on the current problems in the Archdiocese- and pay for the privilege of doing so? It's laughable!

I really think you have nothing to fear in this regard.
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« Reply #133 on: March 26, 2009, 07:28:01 PM »

I doubt Greeks, real ones in Hellas, want to pay for that.
As is often pointed out here, those in the "New Lands" are under the EP.
Meaning...what? That we will want to pay? Why should we? We should chargeGrin  Wink
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« Reply #134 on: March 26, 2009, 08:38:46 PM »

Alaska didn't become a US State until 1959 when the GOA was already entrenched in the USA.

Since the District of Alaska lasted from 1867 to 1959, to the Ecumenical Patriarchate's eyes, Alaska was seen as barbarian lands (just like the Philippines, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, et al.); Hence, after 1867, the Russians no longer existed in Alaska which meant that the Russian Orthodox Church no longer existed in American territory.

California was admitted to the US in 1850; 17 years before Seward's Folly.  The Russian Orthodox were already on US soil.  54 years after Alaska was purchased, this knowledge was used to justify the Pat. Meletios' grab of the entire North American Continent, later divided into 4 Metropolitanates and later subdivided into 8 sub-Metropolitanates.

Wow, Isa's posts are simply enlightening.   Grin  Roll Eyes  Grin


I'll be answering this set of questions next, but all in good time.

In the meantime, I just came across this, with the imprematur of the EP's friend, the "protos" of Old Rome.
Quote
According to reliable records, the first formal act of Christian worship in what is today the State of Alaska took place on Ascension Thursday, May 13 1779, when the Franciscan priest Juan Riobo-a member of a Spanish exploratory expedition sailing out of San Blas, Mexico-celebrated Mass near present-day Craig in southeastern Alaska.  Alaska remained, in terms of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, a "no-man's land" until 1847, when Modest Demers was consecrated the first bishop of Vancouver Island, Canada, and given jurisdiction "over the island of that name and all British and Russian possesssions as far north as 'the glacial sea'"

Although the article "Alaska" fills over 4 pages, the Russian Orthodox are not mentioned ONCE in it.  No, this is not the old "Catholic Encyclopedia," but the "New Catholic Encyclopedia" (2003, vol. 1, p. 207).  You know, the one post Vatican II when were stopped being "schismatics."

The old one (1907) at least give an, although biased, account of the Orthodox in Alaska:
Quote
....In 1823 Ivan Veniaminof, the most distinguished of the Russian ecclesiastics in Alaska, known as the "Enlightener of the Aleuts", arrived in Unalaska. During his career of nearly thirty years, he displayed intense zeal. He was instrumental in spreading Christianity over a vast extent of territory, visiting not only the Aleutian Islands, but all the coast of the mainland from Bristol Bay to the Kuskokwim. Veniaminof was a man of exceptional ability. He mastered the Aleut and Thlinket languages, translated portions of the New Testament, composed a catechism and hymnal, and began an exhaustive research into the traditions, beliefs, superstitions, etc. of the nations of the Aleutian group. In 1840, after the division of the diocese of Irkutsk, he was consecrated Bishop of Kamchatka, the Kurile and Aleutian Islands, and assumed, after the Russian custom, the name of Innocentius. During his sojourn in southeastern Alaska, he devoted himself with great zeal to the conversion of the Thlinkets. He established at Sitka a seminary for the training of natives and half-breeds for the priesthood, an institution that was maintained for many years. In 1852, he was transferred to Yakutsk, and died in 1879, Metropolitan of Moscow. Veniaminof, of whom there exists a biography, is highly venerated as a man and a writer. Petroff says of him, however, that the success of his work of conversion was only temporary and was confined altogether to the time of his presence among the natives....Parochial schools are attached to every Russian church. The Report on Education for 1903 (2352-53) enumerates in Alaska thirty schools, with 740 pupils, and adds that there are sixteen parishes in Alaska with 10,225 parishioners. The Czar still maintains a salaried hierarchy there, but his influence is destined to dwindle away before American missionary endeavors...The Presbyterians, who landed in that country in 1878, have been the most successful. They have strongly organized missions in southeastern Alaska. The late Governor of the territory, John B. Brady, was a Presbyterian missionary for years; and the Rev. Sheldon Jackson, another Presbyterian missionary, is Superintendent of education for the territory....
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01246b.htm
If the BBC is to be believed, the last bit didn't happend:
Quote
Religious legacy lives on in Alaska

The Russian Orthodox church in Alaska is claiming a resurgence in a faith that most people predicted would die out. When Russia sold Alaska to America for $7.2m in 1867 it left little trace on the state - except its religion.

"For me it's a wonderful place to be. After Perestroika there is a resurrection of religion in Russia and every church and every chapel there has an icon of St Herman of Alaska," says Alexander Vankov, a Russian pilgrim from St Petersburg.

Nuns and monks here follow the traditions of St Herman - living a life of prayer in this remote outpost with no electricity or running water.

From their nearby island monastery nuns kayak in to Spruce Island to celebrate the pilgrimage.

And it's in the native Alaskan villages where that faith is still strongest. Travel half an hour by boat down the coast and you get to Ouzinkie - you can only reach it by sea.

Here more than two centuries ago locals embraced a church which protected them against the tyranny of the Russian fur traders.

"We were born not knowing that there was any other. We live in a remote, remote village and the only thing was Orthodox... and we've kept it," says 67-year-old Tania Chichenoff.

"I have eight children and 36 grandchildren and they've all been baptised Orthodox."

Tania, like many native Alaskans from this area, has a Russian surname. Many of the Russians intermarried with natives.

"Very few Russian women came to Alaska. Russians had no prejudices against peoples with Asiatic appearances, so marriage with a native woman - that was nothing out of the ordinary," says local historian Dr Lydia Black."

Despite the arrival of Protestant missionaries after Alaska became American, the onion domes of Orthodox churches can still be seen across most Alaskan towns.

In Alaska's main city, Anchorage, the finishing touches are being put on a new cathedral. The church says it needs more space because of growing congregations.

"At the sale of Alaska, everyone thought that orthodoxy would disappear because all the Russians left. Actually quite the contrary has happened - we are now the largest church in Alaska," says Bishop Nikolai, the Russian Orthodox bishop of Alaska.

The Russian Orthodox church now says it has 49 parishes in Alaska and up to 50,000 followers here. Despite the radical changes wrought by Americans, the deep impression of Russian Orthodoxy remains to this day in Alaska.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3531458.stm

The Presbyterians, it seems, are the ones that have faded away.

Btw, "According to reliable records, the first formal act of Christian worship in what is today the State of Alaska took place" On July 20, 1741, which was the feast day of St Elias. Hieromonk Illarion Trusov, assisted by priest Ignaty Kozirevsky, celebrated a liturgy in thanks for their success of the Bering expedition, at the St. Elias Mountains.  This was the first Orthodox Liturgy held in the western hemisphere.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Alaska
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 09:03:18 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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