OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 20, 2014, 02:55:23 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Challenges of Orthodoxy in America And the Role of the Ecumenical Patriarchate  (Read 29596 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #135 on: March 26, 2009, 10:55:43 PM »

What's clear to me in all of this is unity is moving backwards.  There would be unity tomorrow if people wanted it, but the fact is they don't.  Who settled Alaska when, etc., etc., etc.  Blah, Blah, Blah.

I read today the Sunday of Orthodoxy services in Boston were cancelled because the GOA and OCA are in a spat.  That seems just as childish as all this.
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,444


WWW
« Reply #136 on: March 27, 2009, 12:41:33 AM »

What's clear to me in all of this is unity is moving backwards.  There would be unity tomorrow if people wanted it, but the fact is they don't.  Who settled Alaska when, etc., etc., etc.  Blah, Blah, Blah.

I read today the Sunday of Orthodoxy services in Boston were cancelled because the GOA and OCA are in a spat.  That seems just as childish as all this.

The Russians are known throughout history as a xenophobic people; Yet, they evangelized the Aleuts, Inuits and others while the "subjects" of the Byzantine Empire either ratted each other out to Ottoman officials, wound up in harems, disfigured themselves to prevent from winding up in the harem, engaged in guerilla warfare,... (one gets the picture).  As a consequence of the Enlightenment, the Greeks rediscovered Hellenism (which the Phanariotes and other ex-Byzantine elites had discovered a few centuries earlier after fleeing Constantinople in 1453).  As a consequence of the Enlightenment, the Russians rediscovered barbarism and nihilism at the cost of tens (if not hundreds) of millions dead.  As the consequence of the Enlightenment, the Arabs (Christian and Muslim alike) were manipulated by the western powers until Israel was created in a blink of an eye.

Sts. Cyril and Methodius may have evangelized the Slavs; However, what is now Czech Republic and Slovakia were never part of the Byzantine Empire.

Would anything be different if the Russians had landed on Plymouth Rock and evangelized the Indians they encountered?

Revisionist history is quite popular according to the What If series.  Unfortunately, Christ is the forgotten one in Enlightenment and other isms mentioned above.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #137 on: March 27, 2009, 01:26:01 AM »

As a consequence of the Enlightenment, the Russians rediscovered barbarism and nihilism at the cost of tens (if not hundreds) of millions dead.  As the consequence of the Enlightenment, the Arabs (Christian and Muslim alike) were manipulated by the western powers until Israel was created in a blink of an eye.

Dear SolEX01,

Something pertinent and so sorrowful that it moves us to tears and to prayers.

In Memory Of The 50 Million Victims Of The Orthodox Christian Holocaust

Compiled by Rev. Archimandrite Nektarios Serfes

http://fr-d-serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm

Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #138 on: March 27, 2009, 08:50:13 AM »

Alaska didn't become a US State until 1959 when the GOA was already entrenched in the USA.

California was admitted to the US in 1850; 17 years before Seward's Folly.  The Russian Orthodox were already on US soil.  54 years after Alaska was purchased, this knowledge was used to justify the Pat. Meletios' grab of the entire North American Continent, later divided into 4 Metropolitanates and later subdivided into 8 sub-Metropolitanates.
In the meantime, I just came across this, with the imprematur of the EP's friend, the "protos" of Old Rome.

Although the article "Alaska" fills over 4 pages, the Russian Orthodox are not mentioned ONCE in it.  No, this is not the old "Catholic Encyclopedia," but the "New Catholic Encyclopedia" (2003, vol. 1, p. 207).  You know, the one post Vatican II when were stopped being "schismatics."

The disinformation of the "New Catholic Encyclopedia" does serve a purpose to hightlight that Spain and Russia, knowing of each other's activities and in competition, once met in San Francisco, with consequences for Orthodoxy.

That started with the Pomori ("on the sea" i.e. maritime) who colonized the White Sea region from Novgorod, and spread out along the North Sea Route from Archangel (remember, Sitka, the capital of Russian American, was named "New Archangel" when she received her bishop) across Siberia.  In the interior, Russian monks saw Siberia as a "Northern Desert," and would go out as hermits.  Hermits would lead to monasteries, monasteries to communities, communities to cities, and new hermits would go out from the cities further East to start the whole process again. Ut would seem this is why the Council which elevated Moscow to a Patriarchate gave him jurisdiction over "Moscow and All the Russias, and the Northern Lands."  What would go on to become the episcopacy of North America had started out as the Orthodox mission to China.

Quote
Hourg and Barsanuphii, journeyed east to Kazan, capital of the Tartars, learned the Tartar language, and established a monastic community for the conversion of the Mongol peoples. St Stephen of Perm (1340-96), another monk, would in turn journey beyond Kazan, across the Ural mountain, into the forests of Siberia to labor among the pagan Zyrians. There Stephen devised a Zyrian alphabet, translated the Gospel, and subsequently converted an entire people. This model of monastic evangelization became the pattern for other Russian Orthodox missionaries as they trekked ever eastward, eventually establishing a network of missions across Siberia and along the entire Pacific Rim.

In 1648, the Russian explorer Simeon Dezhnev sailed from the Arctic Ocean, around the Chukotka Peninsula, and founded the post of Anadyr on the Bering Sea, facing Alaska. During the next several generations, Siberian entrepreneurs ventured across the straits to engage native Americans in commerce. Rumors of these early permanent Russian settlements on Alaskan soil during this period persist among Alaskan native peoples today. Whether permanent or occasional residents, these Russian frontiersmen brought with them not only beads, blankets, pots and pans, but their religious traditions as well. Orthodox laity brought the Orthodox faith to North America, baptized the first converts (often their own native wives and Creole offspring), and even constructed the first chapels. Clergy and official missionaries came much later.

Russian traders and trappers would make annual or biannual trading expeditions to the Aleutian Archipelago in search of valuable sea otter pelts. Poorly equipped, these Siberian entrepreneurs were not seasoned military men, but frontier adventurers, much like Daniel Boone. Unlike Boone, though, these adventurers were bachelors. Inevitably they married local women who provided their Siberian husbands with the same clothing, tools, and food they would have given native Alaskan spouses. Thus, when the British Captain James Cook visited the Aleutian Islands at the end of the century (1793), he could not distinguish the Slavs from the native Alaskans. The Siberians had been completely acculturated into the material culture of the Aleuts.

In the 1780’s a Russian trader, Gregory Shelikov, argued that sending annual trading expeditions to the New World across the Bering Strait was unnecessarily expensive and dangerous. The time had come, he argued, for the establishment of permanent trading posts in Alaska. The importation of a few hundred Russian settlers, Shelikov reasoned, could lead to the systematic exploitation of the sea otter habitats all along the Alaskan coast -- and vast profits. As the natives might not be receptive to such a colonial intrusion, Shelikov suggested that the commercial adventure assume a military dimension as well. A Russian settlement in Alaska, atop the North Pacific, would extend Russian political and military influence as far as Spanish California, British Hawaii, and the Spanish Philippines.
In the summer of 1784, Shelikov set out for Kodiak Island to establish his Alaskan base. By all accounts except his own, Shelikov’s expedition was greeted with hostility and armed resistance. Subduing the Kodiak islanders in a bloody encounter, Shelikov returned to St Petersburg to relate his conquest and present a request for a monopoly on the ensuing fur trade to the imperial court. He installed Alexander Baranov as company manager, governor, and virtual dictator of the small Russian colony. Shelikov did not live to see his Russian-American Trading Company receive its monopoly, nor did he ever return to Alaska. Baranov, however was to rule both the colony and the company with an iron fist for 27 years.
To convince the imperial court of the seriousness of his colonial scheme, Shelikov journeyed to Valaam and Konevitsa monasteries, located on the Russo-Finnish border, to recruit monastic volunteers for the new settlement in Alaska. One Archimandrite, three priestmonks, one deacon-monk, one lay monk, together with several staff members, left St Petersburg on December 21, 1793. They arrived in Kodiak on September 24, 1794, having travelled 7,300 miles in 293 days.
http://www.oca.org/MVorthchristiansnamerica.asp?SID=1&Chap=CH1

Then entered the career and romance of Baron Nikolai Rezanov:

Quote
In 1791, he joined the staff of Gavrila Derzhavin in his capacity as the private secretary to the Empress. Several years earlier, meeting Grigory Shelikhov, of the Shelikhov-Golikov Fur Company, Rezanov became interested in the merchant's project to obtain a monopoly of the fur trade in those distant dependencies. Conscious of latent energies, and already tired of the pleasures of a dissolute court, he became a partner in the company, and rapidly developed into a keen and tireless man of business. At the death of Shelikhov in 1795, he became the leading spirit of the wealthy and amalgamated but harassed companies, and resolved to obtain for himself and his partners privileges analogous to those granted by Great Britain to the East India Company.

He had just succeeded in persuading Catherine II to sign his charter when she died, and he was obliged to begin again with the ill-balanced and intractable Emperor Paul. For a time the outlook was hopeless, but Rezanov's skill, subtlety and address prevailed, and shortly before the assassination of Paul he obtained his signature to the momentous instrument which granted to the Russian-American Company, for a term of twenty years, dominion over the Pacific Northwest coast of North America, from latitude 55 degrees northward; and over the chain of islands extending from Kamchatka northward to Alaska and southward to Japan.

This famous "Trust," which crowded out all the small companies and independent traders, was a source of large revenue to Rezanov and the other shareholders, including members of the Imperial family.

He participated in the first Russian circumnavigation of the globe (1803), commanding the expedition himself as far as Kamchatka, in 1805, and found commands awaiting him to remain in the Russian colonies as Imperial inspector and plenipotentiary of the company, and to correct the abuses that were ruining the great enterprise. He traveled slowly to New Archangel (Sitka) by way of the islands, establishing measures to protect the fur-bearing animals from reckless slaughter, punishing or banishing the worst offenders against the company's laws, and introducing the civilizing influence of schools and libraries, most of the books being his personal gifts. He even established cooking schools, which flourished briefly.

At the end of a winter in New Archangel (Sitka), the headquarters of the company (during which he nearly starved with the others) Rezanov bought a ship from a Yankee skipper {John DeWolf} and sailed for the Spanish settlements in California, proposing to trade his tempting cargo of American and Russian wares for food-stuffs, and to arrange a treaty by whose terms his colonies should be provisioned twice a year with the bountiful products of New Spain. He cast anchor in the harbor of San Francisco early in April 1806, after a stormy voyage which had defeated his intention to take possession of the Columbia River in the name of Russia.

Although he was received with great courtesy and entertained night and day by the Californians, no time was lost in informing him that the laws of Spain forbade her colonies to trade with foreign powers.  He however caught the eye of María Concepción Argüello, the daughter of Spain's governor for Upper California of the viceroyalty of New Spain, born at the Presidio of San Francisco.  As it was, when he sailed for New Archangel  six weeks after his arrival, the Juno's hold was full of bread-stuffs and dried meats, he had the promise of the perplexed governor to forward a copy of the treaty to Spain at once, and he was affianced to the most beautiful girl in California. The treaty was to Shortly after his arrival in New Archangel, he proceeded by water to Kamchatka, where he dispatched his ships to wrest the island Sakhalin of the lower Kuril group from Japan, then started overland for Saint Petersburg to obtain the signature of the tsar to the treaty, and also personal letters to the pope and king of Spain that he might ask for the dispensation and the royal consent necessary to his marriage.  He, however, died of fever and exhaustion in Krasnoyarsk, Siberia, on March 8, 1807 on his way to the capital.

His correspondence with the company betrays a clearly defined purpose to annex to Russia the entire western coast of North America, and to encourage immediate emigration from the parent country on a large scale. He he was deeply and humanely concerned for his employees and the wretched natives who were little more than the slaves of the company.  Had he lived, there is, all things considered, hardly a doubt that he would have accomplished his object.

Argüello did not learn of his fate and continued to wait for him, rejecting all other men. Later she became a nun in Monterey, California and remained in the sisterhood until her death in 1857, in Benicia, California.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Rezanov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concepci%C3%B3n_Arg%C3%BCello
http://www.californiamuseum.org/trails/#trails/women/concepcion_arguello
http://books.google.com/books?id=NWImST2DEsYC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=Rezanov+correspondence+colonize+whole+Pacific+coast&source=bl&ots=m4WZxMG3ke&sig=V9LVw3SzpGJcPMae_bnzSkC5bdo&hl=en&ei=JEfMSYXqFIjsnQftg_XYCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA43,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=NSRxrDm0JYYC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=Rezanov+correspondence+colonize+whole+Pacific+coast&source=bl&ots=McLm_A5LDf&sig=eLmKphz7optKCHJ6vZL6cg_rV2E&hl=en&ei=2kjMSfiPG6nynQfrqNDQCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA183,M1
http://books.google.com/books?id=NSRxrDm0JYYC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=Rezanov+correspondence+colonize+whole+Pacific+coast&source=bl&ots=McLm_A5LDf&sig=eLmKphz7optKCHJ6vZL6cg_rV2E&hl=en&ei=2kjMSfiPG6nynQfrqNDQCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA183,M1

Concepcion thus lived to see California to go from a possession of Spain, to Mexico (both Republic and Empire), to independent Republic before joining the U.S. as a state.

In fact, Concepcion's presence in California was brought on by the Russians, going back to the Pomori, which I will explain next.  And if you are asking why that is important, for now I will cite the New York Times, back before it made up stories.

The NY Times of Aug. 4, 1873 "The Greek colony in San Francisco numbers about 300 members, and is the best organized of all the Greek colonies in the States of the Union.  They maintain a little chapel of their own, and have established a benevolent society." 
http://web.me.com/hellenicgenealogy/Site/New_York_Times_-_Aug_4,_1873.html

With the number "about 300," San Francisco would be a considerable portion of the Greek American community: 1821 through 1870, official U.S. figures show 398 Greek immigrants, with 2,308 coming in the decade 1870-1880.

At the time of the article, the See of America had already been transferred to San Francisco.  It is here, not in Alaska nor in Florida or New Orleans (where the GOA officially traces its origins) that the present juridictional mess takes form, capped no less than by the presence of Bp. Archp. EP Pope Meletios founding a Cathedral there, along not only ethnic and national lines, but political ones as well.

San Francisco underlines the hypocracy of the Chief Secretary in denouncing "the manner of [America's] ecclesiastical organization....organized according to their national origin and not according to the canon law of the Orthodox Church...[with] very concrete dangers lurk[ing] behind such a communal organization of the local Church." He, by ignoring the history of the existence of the hierarchy in this country, is merely following the footsteps of those who were "influenced by the prevalent Protestant models and thus they would replicate and imitate practices that are foreign to the Spirit of Orthodoxy."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #139 on: March 27, 2009, 09:05:29 AM »

As one of those who criticized the unfortunate presentation by the Chief Secretary of the Holy Synod of the Constantinople Patriarchate, I must admit that I was incensed at his allegations and my language and tone certainly must have reflected my emotions. I apologize for this as it was not conducive to proper discourse. However, there are many important issues that must be discussed.

One of the major arguments that the Patriarchate has been using to justify its claim to universal primacy is its stance that it has never forced anybody to be Hellenized or to become Greek. Indeed, there is some current evidence that the Patriarchate is embracing geographically and ethnically disparate subordinate churches without any requirement for their Hellenization (Ozgeorge actually listed a number of them in a recent posting).

The problem for me was the Chief Secretary's claim that "...(the Patriarchate) never Hellenized, not even attempted to Hellenize the nations to which it gave through its apostolic missions the undying light of Christ." This is not true for the treatment given to the Bulgarian nation. The Patriarchate over the centuries disregarded the desire of the Bulgarian people to use their own language and clergy. I don't know what the Chief Secretary's definition of Hellenism is but, whatever the motivation, the denial of Bulgarian language and culture when the only other alternative is Greek must mean something. If this is not what the Chief Secretary meant, then I apologize to him. Nonetheless it does not change history and the plain meaning of language.

Something I saw that is perhaps apropos here:
Holy Mount Athos has always been a shining bulwark of our faith.  It has always been a defender of Orthodoxy in centuries past and who can doubt that it will faitfully fulfil that role today and in the future.

I was praying about this steadfastness and the Zographou Martyers came to mind.   The memory of them brings to mind one of Athos' divine vocations which the Church expects of the monks -preserving the purity of our faith.  May all the monasteries and all the fathers continue to be examples for us in the world.

-oOo-

Twenty-six Venerable Martyrs of the Zographou Monastery on Mount Athos.   In the year 1274 at the Council of Lyons (in France), the Byzantine Emperor Michael VIII Paleologos decided to buttress his waning power by forming a union with Latin Rome. This step evoked universal discontent.  In 1278, the emperor issued a decree to introduce the Union at Constantinople by forceful measures, if necessary.

Mount Athos stood in firm opposition to the false union. The Athonite Monks sent a letter to Michael pointing out that the primacy of the Pope, his commemoration in the churches, celebrating the eucharist with unleavened bread, the insertion of the "filioque" ["and from the Son"] into the Creed, could not be accepted by Orthodox, and they asked the Emperor to change his mind.  "We clearly see," the letter said, "that you are becoming a heretic, but we implore you to forsake all this and abide in the teachings that were handed down to you.... Reject the unholy and novel teachings of a false knowledge, speculations, and additions to the Faith."

The Crusaders pushed out of Palestine and finding refuge in the Byzantine Empire, declared to the Emperor their readiness to affirm the power of the Pope by fire and sword, if necessary.  In addition, Michael had hired mercenaries, both Turks and Tatars, to enforce his decree.

The Emperor despised the righteous and true confessing Monks of Mount Athos for their opposition. Since he did not want to provoke the Greeks, he decided to vent his spite upon the Athonite SlavsBy Michael's order, the servants of the Pope descended upon the Bulgarian Zographou Monastery. When the demand to accept the false-union was presented before the Zographou Monks, they refused to listen. They adhered to the holy and blameless Faith of the Fathers, and fearlessly censured those who accepted the Latin errors. The majority of the Zographou monks left the Monastery, but the most steadfast, twenty-six in number, remained within the monastery tower. These were: Igumen Thomas, and the Monks Barsanuphios, Kyril, Michael, Simon, Hilarion, James, Job, Cyprian, Sava, Jacob, Martinian, Cosmas, Sergios, Menas, Joasaph, Joannicios, Paul, Anthony, Euthymios, Dometian, Parthenios, and four laymen.

The Holy Martyrs for their Orthodox Faith, were burned in the Monastery tower on October 10, 1284.

(also September 22)

http://www.westsrbdio.org/prolog/prolog.cgi



The idea in not to bear grudges.  However, those who will not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.  And the Chief Secretary's presentation shows he has not learned from it, from the Hellenization imposed by the EP being denied, and the record of false unions under the "protos" of Rome, as the story of the martyrs at Zographou shows.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,444


WWW
« Reply #140 on: March 27, 2009, 12:03:35 PM »

In fact, Concepcion's presence in California was brought on by the Russians, going back to the Pomori, which I will explain next.  And if you are asking why that is important, for now I will cite the New York Times, back before it made up stories.

The NY Times of Aug. 4, 1873 "The Greek colony in San Francisco numbers about 300 members, and is the best organized of all the Greek colonies in the States of the Union.  They maintain a little chapel of their own, and have established a benevolent society." 
http://web.me.com/hellenicgenealogy/Site/New_York_Times_-_Aug_4,_1873.html

With the number "about 300," San Francisco would be a considerable portion of the Greek American community: 1821 through 1870, official U.S. figures show 398 Greek immigrants, with 2,308 coming in the decade 1870-1880.

At the time of the article, the See of America had already been transferred to San Francisco.  It is here, not in Alaska nor in Florida or New Orleans (where the GOA officially traces its origins) that the present juridictional mess takes form, capped no less than by the presence of Bp. Archp. EP Pope Meletios founding a Cathedral there, along not only ethnic and national lines, but political ones as well.

No servant is greater than his master.  That is how the Ecumenical Patriarchate has always seen Russia even after Russia was raised to Patriarchate in 1589.  3+ Centuries later, the very educated and shrewd Hierarch Meletios apparently took advantage of that biblical quotation to exalt Himself and depart from Orthodox canonical precedence.  The early GOA Archbishops did a good job in unifying communities because no Ecumenical Patriarch would set foot in USA until Pat. Demetrios I in 1987.

San Francisco underlines the hypocracy of the Chief Secretary in denouncing "the manner of [America's] ecclesiastical organization....organized according to their national origin and not according to the canon law of the Orthodox Church...[with] very concrete dangers lurk[ing] behind such a communal organization of the local Church." He, by ignoring the history of the existence of the hierarchy in this country, is merely following the footsteps of those who were "influenced by the prevalent Protestant models and thus they would replicate and imitate practices that are foreign to the Spirit of Orthodoxy."

Over 50 years was needed to restore icons to the Orthodox Church after the 7th Ecumenical Council.  The Church takes a long time to rectify errors and even longer now that secular influences have worked their way into the Church.  Some type of symbolic fire is needed to purge the Church of those who have made these errors and perpetuated them.

Just for math exercise: one half of 666 is 333.  Add 333 to 1589 and one gets 1922.  Some coincidence.   Shocked  Grin  Shocked
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #141 on: March 27, 2009, 03:02:26 PM »

It might do to pause here before I go into the meat of San Francisco as the See of America, and return to the Chief Secretary's words.
Quote
By the term “diaspora” we indicate that region  whose ecclesiastical jurisdiction is been unfortunately claimed by a variety of “Mother” Churches,

Interesting that puts Mother in quotation marks when he puts Church in the plural.

Shall we see if, when he refers to the "Mother Church" of Constaninople, if he puts it in quotation marks.

Constantinople cannot claim the Motherhood of Orthodoxy in North America, just the grandmother (although in Orthodoxy, everyone knows the sitt/yaya/babushka/baba is the one who preserves the Faith).

That being said, I perhaps should deal with the Greek "Orthodox" of Florida:
Quote
Before the establishment of an Archdiocese in the Western Hemisphere there were numerous communities of Greek Orthodox Christians. The first Greek Orthodox community in the Americas was founded in 1864 in New Orleans,LA by a small colony of Greek merchants. History also records that on June 26,1768 the first Greek colonists landed at St.Augustine,FL, the oldest city in America. Today, the “Avero House” where these colonists worshipped has been fully restored and houses the St. Photios National Shrine, dedicated to all our ancestors who came to these shores as immigrants. It was not until just before the turn of the century that the first permanent community was founded in New York City in 1892, today’s Archdiocesan Cathedral of the Holy Trinity and See of the Archbishop of America.
http://www.goarch.org/archdiocese/
[just in passing, and for future reference, the Bishop Paul in New Archangel (Sitka) Paul, auxiliary to the Diocese of Kamchatka, the Kurile and Aleutian Islands, on the sale of Alaska sent Rev. Nikolai Kovrigin to San Francisco to serve the Russians from Alaska, Fort Ross and elsewhere, along with the other Orthodox resident there. Bp. Paul was moved to Russia, but met his successor in Sitka, Bishop John of the Aleutians and Alaska (the Governing Holy Synod had detached Alaska, and given it a ruling bishop, i.e. no longer an auxiliary but a diocese in its own right), who would complete the transfer of the See to San Francisco.  On route to Russia (where he went on to become bishop of the Diocese of Kamchatka, the Kurile Islands, and Blagoveshchensk, i.e. the see to which he served as suffragan in Alaska) via New York Bp. Paul  consecrated on November 12, 1870, the first Orthodox church there, Holy Trinity Greco-Russian Church organized by Father Nicholas Bjerring (who had done missionary work in Lappland for the Vatican, but split with her over Vatican I in 1870.  He later apostacized back).]

Leaving aside New Orleans for the moment (which has its own interesting story to tell, which ends up in San Francisco), history also records more about the Greeks of Florida, to which let's keep the Chief Secretary's words
Quote
the Orthodox faithful in America became organized according to their national origin and not according to the canon law of the Orthodox Church—that is, they organized themselves not in accordance with the principles of Orthodox ecclesiology which dictates that neither national origin, nor the history of a group’s appearance in a particular region
in mind.

The colonists did not stay in St. Augustine, nor were they intended to colonize it.  The colony lay south in New Smyrna, now New Smyrna Beach.  There (a lovely town, btw), there are some ruins of the colonial scheme, and a monument to the Greeks of the colony, which is loudly Greek and agressively secular: it states the colonization "...had nothing to do with religion..."
Quote
New Smyrna, the largest British colonization attempt in the New World, was nearly three times larger than the first settlement at Jamestown in 1607. Dr. Turnbull obtained a land grant from the British Crown, brought with him 1,500 European immigrants and declared New Smyrna as Britain's 14th Crown Colony.
http://www.nsbfla.com/thingstodo.cfm/mode/sites

Although the colony wasn't supposed to be in St. Augustine (the oldest, European at least, city in the U.S., but that had nothing to do with the Greeks, being founded over two centuries before their landing. Btw, it is a very interesting and pleasant town), it ended up there, as the GOA site notes, but leaving out the details of how that happened.

Walking less than 5 minutes from the St. Photios Greek Orthodox National Shrine to the center of St. Augustine, you bump into a statue of Fr. Pedro Camps, a Minorcan Priest whom the Greek Mrs. Turnbull, nee Maria Gracia Dura Bin, hired for the colonists spiritual needs.

Quote
This statue of Father Pedro Camps and others was presented to the Bishop of Saint Augustine, Paul F. Tanner, by Ferdinando A, Rubio, of Minorca, in commemoration of the 200th anniversary of the arrival of Minorcan colonists in St. Augustine. It was dedicated to the city April, 24, 1975.

The first Mass celebrated on the North American continent (not the Caribbean Islands) was celebrated in Pensacola, Florida, and Florida became a very Catholic colony, but by 1763 the English ruled the area, and one year later, astonishingly, no more than eight Catholics, all lay people, remained.

In 1763, Spanish East Florida was ceded to Britain by the Treaty of Paris which concluded the French and Indian Wars, only to be returned to Spain 20 years later as part of the settlement of the American War of Independence. After the American Revolution, the British retroceded Florida back to Spain (Second Spanish Period: 1783-1821).

So England gained control of Florida in 1763 and held this control until 1783, when Spain regained Florida. It was during this British period, that a Scottish doctor by the name of Andrew Turnbull, a former British Consul at Smyrna, Greece was given a grant of approximately 20,000 acres of land about 70 miles south of St. Augustine, Florida and called it New Smyrna named after Smyrna, the birthplace of his wife.

Although the English occupation of Florida was to last for twenty years, catholicity was reborn in the province only five years after its sudden disappearance. The rebirth was worked by a remarkable priest, Fr. Pedro Camps, at the head of an equally remarkable people. The story begins at the port of Mahon on the east side of Minorca, east of Spain in the Mediterranean. There, in 1767, this Scottish physician turned colonizer, Andrew Turnbull, began collecting colonists his projected colony in East Florida. Although Mahon was at first only a collection point for the Greeks and Italians that Turnbull preferred, it eventually became the principle source for his company. By April 1768, Minorcans formed the overwhelming majority of the 1403 who had signed on as indentured servants.

In 1768, Turnbull collected about 1,403 people from the Mediterranean to colonize and work on his project. One hundred ten of these were Italians recruited in the port city of Livorno, Italy. They were ensconced at the port city of Mahon, Minorca, the second largest of the Balearic Islands off the coast of Spain. He then sailed to the port city of Smyrna and the surrounding Levant to collect several hundred Greeks For eight months, Turnbull sailed the Mediterranean and Aegean seeking Greeks and others, although the majority who signed on for his venture would be Minorcans. When Turnbull finally returned to Mahon he found that nearly all of his young Italians had married or were betrothed to Minorcan girls. The Minorcan families of these girls appealed to be included in the proposed British Colony. Other Minorcan families pressed to go also. Consequently, other than a few hundred Italians and Greeks, the final group that sailed in eight ships, totaling 1,403, was largely Minorcan, whose ancestry was mostly Roman and Latin. So some 400 Greeks, 900 Minorcans and a few dozen Corsicans and Italians comprised the initial group.

After four months at sea, the eight ships reached St. Augustine, and later, arrived at Los Mosquitos Inlet (New Smyrna ). They arrived on June 26,1768, in St. Augustine to collect provisions on their way to the New Smyrna Colony. Interestingly, the Greeks were from Smyrna (Asia Minor), Mani (Peloponessos), Santorini and Crete, and since the Ottomans did not allow a Greek Orthodox priest to accompany them, their religious and spiritual needs were administered by the Roman Catholic priest, Fr. Pedro Camps, from Minorca.

Andrew Turnbull’s wife, Gracia Dura Bin, was Catholic, and she took it upon herself to enlist the services of two priests for the colony, Father Pedro Camps, a thirty eight year old Roman Catholic secular priest from Mercadal, Minorca whose zeal and skill at preaching was widely respected on Minorca and Father Bartolome Casanovas, an Augustinian. After some political wrangling (Minorca was under English rule but Mallorca the diocesan seat was under Spanish rule.) both priests were commissioned as apostolic missionaries which gave them wide privileges for their work. Fr. Camps kept extensive vital statistics records which he called the Golden Book of the Minorcans and later he began the Cathedral Parish records in St. Augustine.

His pains taking efforts in recording baptisms, marriages and deaths give us an excellent background for many of the families’ histories. The original Golden Book of the Minorcans of Father Camps is still in good condition and several handwritten copies are on file at the Historical Society Research Library in St. Augustine. Microm films of the original document is also available at the Research Library.

Father Camps and Casanovas were hard pressed to keep courage and hope alive among the people. They built a crude hut for a church and called it San Pedro (sometimes referred to as St. Peter). Fr. Camps was no minimalist. He was a real spiritual leader and advisor for his community. He continuously catechized his people and preached every Sunday with special services during Lent. He was universally accepted even by the English who agreed to pay him $300.00 per year, although that did not occur on a regular basis. In 1774 Fr. Casanovas was deported by Turnbull for alleged insubordination to colony officials. Fr. Camps made repeated attempts to communicate with Minorca and Havana to secure another priest for his maltreated people, but English authorities blocked all attempts because many of the colonists in New Smyrna were unhappy and wanted to escape to Cuba. Hence, English officials under Turnbull’s command forbade communications with Havana.

Father Camps had been told by the Holy See in 1768 to make contact with the bishop of Havana in Cuba which was almost impossible because of the English. In October 1769 Camps talked two Cuban fishermen into taking a message to the bishop of Santiago, asking for Holy Oils and other necessities. Since this bishop knew of no Catholic colonies in Florida, he sent the message to Spain which eventually had to go to Rome for validation. This process took two years.

Fr. Camps was warned at one point for interfering in "temporal" affairs when he presented to the governor a memorial in which he stated the grievances of his poor maltreated people. Turnbull warned him to avoid temporal concerns or suffer the fate of deportation.

1777 the Minorcans determined that Turnbull would not grant them land for their indentured servitude, so two colonists made their way to the governor. Ramon Rogero, and Francisco Pellicer, Sr. undertook to build a makeshift boat so they could get to St. Augustine to report conditions to the governor. This was not the first time the Minorcans had begged the Governor to intercede on their behalf. Instead of reaching St. Augustine, the two men were picked up by a British ship sailing to Baltimore. From there they worked their way back down to St. Augustine on foot and horseback.

They reached St. Augustine and met with the governor, who showed great empathy for their plight. He sent soldiers to the colony and took numerous depositions (all a matter of recorded history) from a number of the colonists. Governor Patrick Tonyn issued orders releasing from their contracts all that had been mistreated or signed on under legal age which meant the virtual dissolution of the colony. Turnbull gave these half starved people four days to get out. Fransisco Pellicer, head carpenter of the settlement, led the Minorcans out of bondage to the city of St. Augustine, Florida. They marched on foot. The women, children, and aged walked in the center while the men, armed with stakes, took up the flanks. Three days later they were in St. Augustine.

After nine years of exploitation, deprivation and broken promises, Turnbull's colony failed and the entire group of Minorcans, Italians and Greeks walked the King's Highway to freedom in St. Augustine.

As a result, the governor permitted the colony to come to St. Augustine "en masse" which they did in July 1777. The total number of Minorcans (now a collective name for the diverse cultural group) that arrived in St. Augustine was a far cry from the number left Minorca nine years prior. There were 1403 that left Minorca in those eight ships and in the ensuing nine years 930 died. With new births in that same period, there were 600 who fled to St. Augustine in 1777.

Father Camps stayed behind with the sick. He was held a virtual prisoner there by Turnbull, he was refused his arrears in salary and the use of any sacred vessels because he refused to counsel his people to live and work in the bondage of New Smyrna. He was held in New Smyrna and was not released until November of 1777 even though the sick had already been sent to St. Augustine by ship. There he began a new parish, the only one in St. Augustine at the time, on the ground floor of a residence by the city gates and called it San Pedro.

He made the following entry in his Golden Book:

On the 9th day of November 1777, the church of San Pedro was translated from the settlement of Mosquito to the city of Saint Augustine, with the same colony of Mahonese Minorcans which was established in the said settlement, and the same parish priest and Missionary Apostolic, Dr. Dn. Pedro Camps. (Dr. Pedro Camps, Parish Priest.)

Fr. Camps was in ill health and had been sending messages to the Bishop of Havana for three years asking for help. Finally in December of 1778 the king sent two Irishmen, but war had broken out, and Florida was blockaded by the English. The first of the priests did not arrive until June of 1784 when the Spaniards once again took formal possession of the colony of Florida. Fr. Camps had petitioned to retire, but was keenly aware of the plight of his Minorcan speaking people among an English speaking clergy. He had been promised retirement in Mallorca as a canon of the Cathedral of Mallorca, but he refused to leave as long as there was no other priest who spoke the native language to replace him. Although two more priests who spoke Spanish were eventually sent, they did not understand the Minorcan dialect or culture, and the Minorcans were the bulk of the population at that time in Saint Augustine because the English left en masse after the Spanish took over. In 1787 the first free school, in what is now the United States, was opened for the Minorcan children.
http://www.halsema.org/people/theleonardifamily/culture/fatherpedrocamps/index.html

The Saint Photios Greek Orthodox National Shrine is well within the Minorcan quarter of St. Augustine.

The Floridas turned down the invitation of the Continental Congress to join the emerging U.S., and returned to Spain.  The Turnbulls left for life in South Carolina.  New Smyrna had no population to speak of until its incorporation in 1887 with 150.

As for Greek "Orthodoxy" in St. Augustine:
Quote
Each year, pilgrims from across the land journey to this place of Greek- American beginnings, to the St. Photios National Shrine, in order to participate in the active witness of this important ministry of the Church. Like its patron Saint, the Shrine is called to be a steadfast beacon to the faithful, maintaining and perpetuating our Orthodox faith and Hellenic heritage, which we offer graciously to contemporary America.
This sacred and historic site is the only Greek Orthodox National Shrine in the country. It is primarily a religious institution and is located in America's oldest city, St. Augustine, Florida. The Shrine consists of an original building called the Avero House, a two-story structure built in 1749. It was here in this building that, with the demise of the New Smyrna Colony in 1777, the remaining colonists gathered and made this house (now the St. Photios National Shrine) their place for prayer and fellowship.The saga of the colonists of New Smyrna, Florida, is the story of a little-known link in the chain binding 18th century old-world immigrants to new-world settlers. The first Greek pilgrims who came to the United States came here looking for a better life for themselves and their descendants. Upon their arrival they did not have much in terms of material wealth but they did offer this land the most precious gift in the world: the Orthodox Faith!
Although many hopes and dreams had been shattered, the survivors of the New Smyrna odyssey eagerly met the challenge of starting a new life in St. Augustine. There, in St. Augustine, the few remaining Greeks gathered in a residence for solace, fellowship and worship. The English had given the Avero House on St. George Street, in St. Augustine, to be used as a place of fellowship and worship for the colonists.
http://www.goarch.org/special/stphotios/index_html

The web site then jumps two centuries:
Quote
In 1965, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America learned from some of the Greeks living in St. Augustine then, that the residence on St. George Street, built originally in 1749 by the Spanish Avero family, was available. The Avero House was purchased by the Archdiocese...In 1969, Archbishop Iakovos announced that the Greek Orthodox National Shrine in America would bear the name of Saint Photios the Great...Like its patron saint – Saint Photios – the Shrine is called to be a steadfast beacon to the faithful, maintaining and perpetuating our Orthodox Faith and Hellenic Heritage; to project Orthodox Christianity through its programs and activities to all who pass through its historic doors; and to initiate the mission endeavor of love, of freedom, a better life, and to communicate the Gospel of Christ...It was dedicated to the memory of that first colony and to all Greek immigrants who came to these shores seeking a new world and a new life. The purpose of the Saint Photios Greek Orthodox National Shrine is to honor the memory of that first colony of Greeks, and thus honor all pioneers who later followed to establish the Church communities that now comprise our Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America...Greek Orthodox faithful are encouraged to make a pilgrimage to the National Shrine

Now, I don't have a problem with the St. Photios Shrine.  I rather like the place and its conception.  And I like the idea of the GOA owning where the first Greeks settled in the New World.  But I can't deny that, if history holds any title, that it should belong to the "Greek Catholics."

As the lengthy quote shows, we have quite a bit of documentation of the colony and its aftermath: the registry of the Vatican's basilica, the depositions of the English governor, etc.  One of the Greek to survive, Gaspar Papi
Quote
It is certain from his will and other documents that Gaspar was Greek and of the Roman Catholic faith from infancy.
"Gaspar Papi and Ana Pons:Their Lives and Descendants," by Latrell Pappy Mickler 
http://www.buybooksontheweb.com/peek.aspx?id=4678
Of Ana Pons:
Quote
Gaspar and the other future colonists from the Greek Isles, Corsica, and Italy were gathered at Turnbull’s base port of Mahon on the Isle of Minorca in the Mediterranean. Some of these reportedly lived aboard ship, while others lived in hastily made shacks in a “shantytown” near the port of Mahon while Turnbull gathered still others for his venture.  While the men waited for their eventual departure, many fell in love with, and married Minorcan girls, who were said to be very beautiful. They also told the Minorcan people, who were suffering from a severe famine, of the wonderful opportunity for a new life promised by Dr. Turnbull. One of the families who decided to leave Minorca was that of newly married Juan Jose Magin Buenaventura Andreu and his wife Catalina Gertrudis Antonia Pons. Catalina was the daughter of Miguel Pons and Fransesquina Coll. Fransesquina was most likely deceased by then, because Juan and Catalina Pons Andreu brought her little sister, Ana Maria Eulalia Pons to the new world with them. Ana was about seven years old when they departed Minorca in the spring of 1768...Roman Catholic Records from Mercadal, Minorca record the marriage of Miguel and Francesquina on June 16, 1743...Ana’s baptismal record translated from Catalan states: Anne Marie Pons, 9 June 1761: I, the Reverend Sebastian Cardell, Pre[late], baptized Anna Maria Eulalia, daughter of Miguel Pons and Fransesquine Coll, married couple. Godparents: Diego Messenet and Anne Messenet, his wife. She was born on the 8th day at about 3 in the afternoon.). Ana Pons was destined to become the bride of Gaspar Papy.

Do we have a single record of an Orthodox Greek in the company?  Many had submitted to the Vatican in Smyrna (including the family of the lady of the colony, who took their spiritual needs upon herself), Crete, Mani and Corsica (whether many from Many went): where did the Orthodox come from? How can we say
Quote
The first Orthodox parish in this country was established in the town of New Smyrna, Florida in 1768
http://www.saintkatherine.org/orthodoxy.html#
when there is no documentation of any priest nor Orthodox service nor, for that matter, of Orthodox in all the documentation of New Smyrna?

Is it because they were Greek?

Has anything survived of the New Smyrneans' "Orthodoxy?"  Did they cling to it as tenatiously as the Alaskans did?

The Chief Secretary can admire Fr. Camps diliegence in organizing his parish, catechizing his parisioners, and obeying his bishop (even under threat of expulsion by the English governor).  But Fr. Camp answered to Old, not New, Rome.  Did the Orthodox, if they existed, withstand the preaching of Fr. Camps?  The massive intermarriage in Fr. Camps church, with the communicants of that church, if the Greeks were not already communicants of that church?

Does anyone know of any evidence that the Orthodox services, even a reader's service or even a Orthodox prayer ever happened in Avero House, until the GOA purchased it?

If not, then I expect the Chief Secretary, true to his words "that the Orthodox faithful in America became organized according to their national origin" is "not according to the canon law of the Orthodox Church," that "the principles of Orthodox ecclesiology....dictate that neither national origin, nor the history of a group’s appearance in a particular region...has the ultimate authority," and have GOA delete the reference to New Smyrna from their history.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 03:05:18 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #142 on: March 27, 2009, 07:19:11 PM »

A nice gloss of the history of New Smyrna. The Greeks were promised a Greek Orthodox priest before signing the contracts of indenture. Upon their arrival, just barely south of St. Augustine, the British organizer of the colony reneged on his promise and provided an RC priest only.

I'm sure Isa is better versed in this history.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #143 on: March 27, 2009, 08:28:16 PM »

A nice gloss of the history of New Smyrna. The Greeks were promised a Greek Orthodox priest before signing the contracts of indenture. Upon their arrival, just barely south of St. Augustine, the British organizer of the colony reneged on his promise and provided an RC priest only.

I'm sure Isa is better versed in this history.


Actually, no.

The problem is the details are lacking in most portrayals of the New Smyrna Greeks.  It is just assumed that since they were Greek, then they must have been Orthodox, etc.  I was also rather shocked on how secular, almost militantly so, the Greek Monument in Riverside Park, New Smyrna Beach was.

If you have some information on a promise of an ORTHODOX priest, or some other evidence about Orthodox among the Greeks, I'm all ears (or eyes).  Because all the details I've come across or found all point to them being baptized, like Mrs. Turnbull in whose honor the colony was named, by Old Rome, not New Rome.  Even the story about them worshipping in Nevaro House is new.



I tried finding your information on the St. Photios Shrine, and this is the first thing I saw:
Quote
These relics (small pieces of bone were obtained from the Vatican and gifted in 1984 to the St. Photios National Shrine by the Three Hierarchs Church in Brooklyn, NY. Documents of Authenticity were provided by the Vatican. The Reliquary was gifted to the Shrine by Archbishop Iakovos. Each silver container in the Reliquary contains a relic of one of the following saints
http://www.stphotios.com/tourmuseum/relics1.htm
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 08:33:54 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,444


WWW
« Reply #144 on: March 27, 2009, 11:38:11 PM »

Watch the video

Source for quote:

Quote
A special audio/visual tape, “Our Plymouth Rock,” is available in the bookstore/gift shop and when viewed, creates a pictorial highway that transports you from the shores of ancient Greece to America. It tells the story of Greek immigrants finding themselves in a hostile and unknown

Come to think of it, Florida didn't enter the USA as a State until 1845.  The GrecoItaloMinorcans surely didn't evangelize anyone in Florida whether it be the British, the Spanish or the Seminole Indians.

The GrecoItaloMinorcans at St. Augustine represent escape from the Ottoman Yoke - 53 years before Bishop Germanos raised the flag of "freedom or death" at Aghia Lavra.

Apparently, there are 8 sources for the Greek settlement of St. Augustine according to the news release mentioning the annual St. Photios Essay Winner

Source

Quote
She referenced eight sources including New Smyrna: An Eighteenth Century Greek Odyssey by EP Panagopoulos, The Story of the Founders of St. Photios National Shrine by Constantine Santas, Greeks in America by Babis Malafouris, and The Majesty of St. Augustine by Steven Brooke. Her research also included interviewing of one of the founders, Olga Fotiou, and a copy of the cover of Holiday Magazine (March 1961 issue) promoting an article about St. Augustine’s early Greek colonists.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 11:54:49 PM by SolEX01 » Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #145 on: March 28, 2009, 01:56:38 AM »

Isa, you need to read New Smyrna - An Eighteenth Century Greek Odyssey, E.P. Panagopoulos; Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 1978

I believe it is in reprint. You may read therein the letters of the organizer of the colony and his statements promising to the Greeks "a priest of their own religion"; how to make up a full complement of colonists he ended up with a mix 60% Greek, 40% Maltese and Corsicans; provided a Roman Catholic priest only; the conversion of the Greeks to Catholicism as a result (convert from what, I ask you?); and the single family which refused conversion, remaining Orthodox.

I've been to the shrine in Florida - it's an obligatory family tradition from my mother's side.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 01:57:19 AM by Αριστοκλής » Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #146 on: March 28, 2009, 08:16:23 AM »

Isa, you need to read New Smyrna - An Eighteenth Century Greek Odyssey, E.P. Panagopoulos; Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 1978

I believe it is in reprint. You may read therein the letters of the organizer of the colony and his statements promising to the Greeks "a priest of their own religion"; how to make up a full complement of colonists he ended up with a mix 60% Greek, 40% Maltese and Corsicans; provided a Roman Catholic priest only; the conversion of the Greeks to Catholicism as a result (convert from what, I ask you?); and the single family which refused conversion, remaining Orthodox.

I've been to the shrine in Florida - it's an obligatory family tradition from my mother's side.

I'll try to lay my hands on it (I prefer primary sources anyway).  If what you say is true (and I don't have to doubt it) then my question is, why does the shrine not credit to that single faithful Orthodox family?

Maltese?  You mean, Minorcan?  And I always understood that the Corsicans were Greek Corsicans.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 08:18:14 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #147 on: March 28, 2009, 09:51:25 AM »

Isa, you need to read New Smyrna - An Eighteenth Century Greek Odyssey, E.P. Panagopoulos; Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 1978

I believe it is in reprint. You may read therein the letters of the organizer of the colony and his statements promising to the Greeks "a priest of their own religion"; how to make up a full complement of colonists he ended up with a mix 60% Greek, 40% Maltese and Corsicans; provided a Roman Catholic priest only; the conversion of the Greeks to Catholicism as a result (convert from what, I ask you?); and the single family which refused conversion, remaining Orthodox.

I've been to the shrine in Florida - it's an obligatory family tradition from my mother's side.

I'll try to lay my hands on it (I prefer primary sources anyway).  If what you say is true (and I don't have to doubt it) then my question is, why does the shrine not credit to that single faithful Orthodox family?

Maltese?  You mean, Minorcan?  And I always understood that the Corsicans were Greek Corsicans.

Good questions all! I have the book but read it last about 12 years ago. As to Minorcan, perhaps...working from memory there. I do recall the colonists were of mixed ethnicity and "religion" and do not remember any Greek Corsicans.
The shrine is to St. Photios, no specific family.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #148 on: March 28, 2009, 10:01:54 AM »

In sum the challenge of Orthodoxy is figuring out who actually settled here first and that is probably our most pressing issue.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #149 on: March 28, 2009, 10:08:14 AM »

In sum the challenge of Orthodoxy is figuring out who actually settled here first and that is probably our most pressing issue.
By no means.  But it is a means of solving the line that the Chief Secretary is spouting, which his boss is pressing.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 10:15:39 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #150 on: March 28, 2009, 12:06:37 PM »



Maybe the question should be which jurisdiction has produced the most saints in this  new land.  Rather than based on claims that one family in Florida remained Orthodox.  That's a bad as the claims that were once on the GOA website claiming Chistopher Columbus was Greek and a Greek sailor came over over with the Spanish conquistors trying to prove who was here first.  Hopefully these claims are no longer on the site!  Contrary to what some may think - 'One does not have to be Orthdox to be Greek.  Or in order to be Greek one doesnot have to be Orhodox.  In America we can be what we want.

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #151 on: March 28, 2009, 02:02:02 PM »



Maybe the question should be which jurisdiction has produced the most saints in this  new land.  Rather than based on claims that one family in Florida remained Orthodox.  That's a bad as the claims that were once on the GOA website claiming Chistopher Columbus was Greek and a Greek sailor came over over with the Spanish conquistors trying to prove who was here first.  Hopefully these claims are no longer on the site!  Contrary to what some may think - 'One does not have to be Orthdox to be Greek.  Or in order to be Greek one doesnot have to be Orhodox.  In America we can be what we want.

Orthodoc

Chuckle...one would hope. The book, published in the 1930s where this Columbus-Chios connection seems to first have surfaced I once read, back in 1964. I went searching for it a couple years ago and only found it in the Library of Congress. [Christopher Columbus was a Greek and his real name was Nikolaos Ypshilantis, Spyros Cateras]
Last month I found a copy on the Internet for sale for $200+...I wasn't THAT interested.
Working from memory alone, I think I debunked most of it anyway.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #152 on: March 28, 2009, 02:11:10 PM »

No one has heard of Leif Ericsopolous?

I still think a good deal of what Fr. Lambriniadis is absolutely correct.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 02:11:55 PM by AMM » Logged
rwprof
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA now, Antiochian originally
Posts: 294



« Reply #153 on: March 28, 2009, 03:33:06 PM »

No one has heard of Leif Ericsopolous?

LOL!


Logged

Mark (rwprof) passed into eternal life on Jan 7, 2010.  May his memory be eternal!
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #154 on: March 28, 2009, 06:58:14 PM »



Maybe the question should be which jurisdiction has produced the most saints in this  new land.  Rather than based on claims that one family in Florida remained Orthodox.  That's a bad as the claims that were once on the GOA website claiming Chistopher Columbus was Greek and a Greek sailor came over over with the Spanish conquistors trying to prove who was here first.  Hopefully these claims are no longer on the site!  Contrary to what some may think - 'One does not have to be Orthdox to be Greek.  Or in order to be Greek one doesnot have to be Orhodox.  In America we can be what we want.

Orthodoc

Not directly to your point, but related: I see that the St. Photios Shrine is advertised as the only Shrine in the America, which puzzles me, as I see it neither as a shrine, and there are shrines in America.

What does St. Photios have to do with the site?  How would it be different from a parish named in St. Photios' honor?  What makes it a "shrine?"  St. Photios, as best I can tell has no connection to it, except that the Orthodox Christian Mission Center is also head-quartered in St. Augustine.  It would have made more sense, I would think, to have a shrine to St. Polycarp of Smyrna, as the colony was named in honor of his parish.

America has shrines: I went to the Cathedral of the Joy of All who Sorrow, built by St. John Maximovish of San Francisco, consecrated by him, and graced by his incorruptible relics. (someone there told me that is why SF doesn't fall into the sea)



http://www.deathtotheworld.com/pics/various/shrine_stjohn.jpg
http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/RelicsStJohnShanghai.jpg

I've been to the shrine of St. Gregory Palamas (in Thessalonica, in the north of the city if I remember correctly.  If you are in the vicinity and don't perform a pilgramage, it is a sin:not only to venerate St. Gregory's relics which are available, but also because the Church is a gorgeous example of the best that Greek Orthodoxy has to offer in the way of an ediface). St. John's compares favorably to St. Gregory's

Usually St. Mary's in Minnesota is not seen as a shrine: most go to St. Tikhon's in PA to venerate St. Alexis' relics.  But I went on pilgrimage there in MN to see where he began to gather the sheep that had gone astray, where he formed the first seminary in the lower 48, and where he celebrated DL.

My old parish, Holy Trinity Cathedral in Chicago, where I was married and where my oldest son was baptized, was founded by a Saint, Fr. John Kuchurev the neo-martyr (the first murdered by the Bolsheviks) and was consecrated by a Saint, Archb. Tikhon, Met. Jonah's predecessor.  The cathedral has relics of both: indeed the whole church is a relic of their mission in America.

I haven't been to the state of AK, so haven't had the fortune yet, but know those who have, of venerating the many shrines of St. Herman, St. Juvenaly, St. Innocent, etc. there.

I went to Fort Ross on pilgramage, although its chapel was never consecrated (the Fort never had a permanent priest assigned).  But St. Innocent ministered there, baptized the resident, native, AMERICAN Orthodox there, and celebrated DL in it.

I'm afraid that the Chief Secretary would have the same tone as he has for Met. Jonah as for Met. Jonah's predecessor, St. Archb. Tikhon, Enlightener of America, in his farewell sermon before returning to Russia, eventually to become Patriarch of Moscow:
Quote
This Sunday is called “The Sunday of Orthodoxy” or “The Triumph of Orthodoxy,” since on this day the Holy Church solemnly commemorates her victory over Iconoclasm and other heresies.  And this triumph of Orthodoxy took place not just a thousand years ago.  No – for due to the mercy of God, the Church up to this day, now here and now there, gains victory and is triumphant over her enemies – and she has many of them. 

It is not a coincidence that the Church is likened to a ship, sailing amidst a ferocious, stormy sea which is ready to drown it in its waves.  And the further the ship sails, the harder the waves slam against it, the fiercer they attack it!  But the harder the waves hit the ship, the further they are thrown away and rejoin the abyss and disappear in it, and the ship continues its triumphant sailing as before.  For “the foundation of God standeth sure” (2 Tim. 2.19),  since the Church of Christ is built on an immovable rock, and “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” (Matt. 16.18). 

The Church of Christ is the kingdom not of this world.  It does not possess any of the attractions of the earthly world.  It is persecuted and slandered.  Yet it not only avoids perishing in the world, but grows and defeats the world!  This happens everywhere, and here in our land as well.  “We cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard” (Acts 4.20).

It is true that our Church here cannot boast of the quantity of its members, neither of their erudition.  Just like the “preaching of Christ crucified” (1 Cor. 1.23), for some it seems lowly and contemptible, and for others it seems simple and foolish, but in reality “God’s power and wisdom” (1 Cor. 1.24) are concealed in it.  It is strong and rich with the authenticity of the doctrine which has been preserved unaltered, with full adherence to the guiding regulations of the Church, a deep sense of liturgical service, and a plenitude of grace.  And with all of this it is gradually attracting the hearts of people, and it is growing and getting stronger more and more in this country

You brethren have witnessed and seen for yourselves the growth and strengthening of Orthodoxy here.  Just a mere twelve to fifteen years ago, we, aside from faraway Alaska, barely had any churches here.  There were no priests, and the Orthodox people numbered only in a few dozens and maybe a few hundreds. And even they lived dispersed, far from one another. 

And now?  “The Orthodox are seen this day in this country.” Our temples appear not only in big cities but in obscure places as well.  We have a multitude of clergy, and tens of thousands of faithful – and not only those who have been Orthodox for a while, but those who have converted from among the Uniates.  Schools are opened, the brotherhoods are established.  Even strangers acknowledge the success of Orthodoxy here.  So how can we ourselves not celebrate “The Triumph of Orthodoxy,” and not thank the Lord who helps His Church!

But it is not enough, brethren, only to celebrate “The Triumph of Orthodoxy.”  It is necessary for us personally to promote and contribute to this triumph.  And for this we must reverently preserve the Orthodox Faith, standing firm in it in spite of the fact that we live in a non-Orthodox country, and not pleading as an excuse for our apostasy that “it is not the old land here but America, a free country, and therefore it is impossible to follow everything that the Church requires.”  As if the word of Christ is only suitable for the old land and not for the entire world!  As if the Church of Christ is not “catholic”! As if the Orthodox Faith did not “establish the universe”!

Furthermore, while faithfully preserving the Orthodox Faith, everyone must also take care to spread it among the non-Orthodox.  Christ the Savior said that having lit the candle, men do not put it under a bushel but on a candlestick so that it gives light to all (Matt. 5.15).  The light of the Orthodox Faith has not been lit to shine only for a small circle of people.  No, the Orthodox Church is catholicshe remembers the commandment of her Founder, “Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature and teach all nations” (Mark 16.15; Matt. 28.19). 

We must share our spiritual richness, truth, light, and joy with others who do not have these blessings.  And this duty does not only lay upon the pastors and the missionaries but on the lay persons as well, since the Church of Christ, according to the wise comparison of the Holy Apostle Paul, is the body, and every member takes part in the life of the body.  By means of all sorts of mutually binding bonds which are formed and strengthened through the action of every member according to his capacity, the great Church body receives an increase unto the edifying of itself (cf. Eph. 4.16). 

In the first centuries it was not only the pastors who were tortured, but lay persons as well – men, women, and even children.  And it was lay people likewise who enlightened the heathen and fought heresies.  And now in the same way, the spreading of the Faith should be a matter that is personal, heartfelt, and dear to each one of us.  Every member of the Church must take an active part in it – some by personal podvig spreading the Good News, some by material donations and service to “the needs of the holy persons,” and some by profuse prayer to the Lord that He “keep His Church firm and multiply it” – and concerning those unaware of Christ, that He would “proclaim the word of truth to them, open to them the Gospel of Truth, and join them to the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.” I have told this numerous times to my flock.  And today, upon my departing from this land, I once more command all of you to preserve and act upon this, and especially you brethren of this holy temple. 

You witnessed yourself last Sunday that “The foreknowledge of God drew you closer to the bishop’s cathedra, and that the awareness of this closeness elevates your Christian spirit and edifies the nature of your undertakings, inspiring you for everything good.” Your temple is a Cathedral.  It is preeminent in the diocese.  And being its parishioners, you brethren must give others an example in everything good that concerns the life of the Church, including caring for the Orthodox Faith. 

Furthermore, your parish is Russian, almost entirely consisting of people who came from Russia.  And to this very day Russia has been famous as a holy Christian land, whose adornment is the Orthodox Faith, the piousness of her people, and her temples of God.  So brethren, uphold here in a foreign land the glory of your motherland.  Manifest yourselves before the non-Orthodox as the Russian Orthodox people. 

I can say with comfort that in these days, with your zealous attendance at our temple, you’ve made a good impression on the local residents.  And you have especially gladdened my heart and expelled the sadness and grief which was felt not only by me in other places at the sight of empty temples during the feastday Church services. 

May the Lord strengthen you to excel in the Orthodox Faith more and more – my last prayer is about this . . .   Today I depart from you.  And so, farewell, fathers and brethren of this holy temple, who are close to me not only in spirit but in our joint prayers, labors, and residence!  Farewell to you, the rest of my flock scattered across the wide horizon of this land!  Farewell, all those of you wandering in the deserts, working in the mountains and in the depths of the earth, and those on the islands far out in the sea!

Farewell to you, my Cathedral temple!  You are dear and close to me.  It has been during the time of my service that you were opened, you were adorned during my time as well, and you were made a cathedral during my time.  Perhaps for some who have seen the large, magnificent temples in Russia, you might seem small and modest, and you do not shine with gold and silver and precious gemstones like those temples do.  But for Russian Orthodox people, who suffered here for a long time without a temple, you represent a precious treasure, and they rejoice that they have you – like the Jews who returned from the Babylonian captivity rejoiced at the time of the construction of the second temple, even though it was not as splendid as that of Solomon.  So:

“Oh Lord, the God of Israel!  May Thine eyes be open toward this house night and day, that Thou mayest hearken unto the prayer of Thy people when they shall pray in this place! . . . Moreover, concerning a stranger that is not of Thy people, when he shall come and pray in this house, hear Thou him from Heaven, Thy dwelling place!” (3 Kingdoms 8.26-27, 39-41).

Farewell to you, this country!  For some you are the motherland, the place of birth; for others you gave shelter, work, and well-being.  Some received the freedom to profess the right Faith in your liberal land.  God spoke in ancient times through the prophet, “And seek the peace of the city whither I have caused you to be carried away captives, and pray unto the Lord for it: for in the peace thereof shall you have peace” (Jer. 29.7; Hebrew text).

And so, let us pray to the Lord that He send this country “a plenitude of the earthly fruits, fair weather, timely rain and wind, and preserve it from the cowardly, flood, fire, sword, invasion of foreigners, and civil strife.”

Let God’s blessing be upon this country, this city, and this temple.  And let “the blessing of the Lord, with grace and love for man,” rest upon you all, “now and ever and unto the ages of ages.  Amen.”
http://oca15aac.wordpress.com/2008/11/12/st-tikhon-of-moscow%E2%80%99s-last-sermon/
http://www.monachos.net/content/patristics/patristictexts/473-tikhon-farewell-sermon-triumph-orthodoxy

Contrast this vision, as I will below, with this "vision" or lack thereof:
Quote
You have, my brothers and sisters, the privilege to be citizens of a country which determines to a great extent the fate of many people on our planet, a country where pioneering technologies as well as ideas and philosophies have been discovered and disseminated. The cultural peculiarities and characteristics of the United States find also a reflection in, as it is only natural, and exercise an influence on the religious communities of this country. It is far from accidental that none of the “traditional” religions (coming either from Europe or elsewhere), remained the same once they were replanted on American soil.

The first and main challenge that American Orthodoxy faces is that it has been developed in a region which, from an administrative and technical point, is that of diaspora. By the term “diaspora” we indicate that region  whose ecclesiastical jurisdiction is been unfortunately claimed by a variety of “Mother” Churches, which wish to maintain their pastoral care over their respective flocks, comprised by the people who, over the years, immigrated to the superpower called USA.

I still think a good deal of what Fr. Lambriniadis is absolutely correct.

I know that Chief Secretary and his boss do not like to hear the truth of Ligonier (why Archb. Iakovos of blessed memory went into exile), but we do not live in "diaspora."  As long as they in denial about that, the prattling should fall on deaf ears.


Quote
No one has heard of Leif Ericsopolous?

If it wasn't so sad, it would be funny.

Which reminds me:
Due to Leif Ericsson, all of North America belongs to the Autonomous Church of Norway.
Nothing about documentation, but our priest just returned from Sweden and Norway, telling it was "business as usual" there.

There is a group in Norway, which was years ago all members of the State church of Norway but is now ecumenical because some have left.  Some went to Rome.  A large group tried to go Orthodox, but the Greek primate of Sweden was against the idea of Orthodoxy being for Scandinavians, so they ended up forming the "Nordic Catholic Church" and joined the Polish National Church.  This Nordic church already have their own bishop.  Another lost opportunity for Orthodoxy.

There was a recent plan to form a convent in Norway near Aeslund (a Greek family of 30+ years there told this story).  Up to a hundred nuns, and 15 priests from Athos to minister to them and the surrounding country.  Again, the Greek primate KOd the idea, as it smacked of the idea that "Orthodoxy is for Scandinavians."

The remnants of the non-Greeks there, basically the Slavs, have moved in that they have services in Norwegian, etc.  Evidenty, since all non-Greeks are the same, the primate isn't watching too closely what the exarchate is doing.

Btw, word was that the Greek primate ended up in Scandinavia because he was run out of Greece.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 07:13:35 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #155 on: March 28, 2009, 07:50:11 PM »

Quote
but we do not live in "diaspora."

Some do.  There is no Orthodox Church in this country.  There are a number which exist in parallel.  The speech itself is actually pointless.  Not because there is some form of unity without the EP on the horizon which is a threat, but that unity itself is could be on the horizon (under the EP or anyone else).  It's going the other direction.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 07:55:39 PM by AMM » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #156 on: March 28, 2009, 10:37:03 PM »

Quote
but we do not live in "diaspora."

Some do.

Many don't.  Actually, most don't.  As far as the Greeks, they are free to return (there is a net immigration to Greece from the U.S. now).

When I get to it, I'll bring up the NY Times article already quoted, when he shows the the Greeks were very much in diaspora, putting the hand to the plough and looking back.  In fact, it was politics back home which birthed the GOA here, as we'll see.

I went on about the Amerindian converts because they have no earthly homeland, but here. They formed the core of the Orthodox Church here, and eventually did get what the U.S. promised them.  The Orthodox Church, in the form of the Churches that Russia had built up, belonged to them by treaty.  That diocese was as much a part of the Russian Church as any in Siberia, and similarly constructed, in canonical order.

Now, when Russia moved its border back, that didn't place them in "diaspora."  They didn't go anywhere.  In fact, true to its founding as a missionary Church, on the principle of the Great Commission, if it went anywhere, it predated Alaska into the U.S.  The Russian presence in CA had a hand in course of its history, including practically entering the U.S. as a State.  Like Athena from Zeus' forehead, CA entered as a center in America, centered on the SF-Sacramento-East Coast axis.  Rather than going to Oregon in the North or to L.A. in the South (as had originally been proposed), the Pony Express, Transcontinental Railroad, Transcontinental Telegraph, etc. went to SF.  And when SF went into the U.S. the Russian presence there, AK's Southern branch as it were, entered into the American mainstream, as a forerunner of the move of the See of Sitka to SF, and thence NY.

Example of what I mean: Hawaii's quarter came out this year.  Apropos, as the first Hawaiian president took office.

http://www.netstate.com/states/quarters/images/hi_qtr.gif

Now, for one thing, it's interesting in that it doesn't have any English on the face.  In fact, it might be the first U.S. coin to have any language besides English or Latin on it.  Is Hawaiian an American language?  It is spoken in the U.S.  In fact, it is probably spoken no where else but the U.S. (btw, the coins of the Kingdom of Hawaii had English on them too).

But what is really interesting is that it is the first coin minted by the U.S. to have the image of a monarch (at least since George III).  Now, is Kamehameha I an American king?  His kingdom is of the U.S. His law is still on the books.  He and his successors are buried in the U.S., their palace is in the U.S.  The last of their line ended her days as a U.S. citizen, and with a pension from the U.S. territorial authority.

(btw, the Russian-American company was first in Hawaii too with Orthodoxy).

So too, with the incorporation of CA and AK into the U.S., the Orthodox Church did not remain "foreign" to the U.S., as she had been a native Church from the beginning.  As Mr. Coin points out in his excellent critique of the Chief Secretary's speech: they did not come to the superpower called the U.S. to create a diaspora.  They were incorporated into the U.S. and helped to make it a superpower.
Quote
There is no Orthodox Church in this country.  There are a number which exist in parallel.
Hence the fact that the Chief Secretary's nerve is hit by Met. Jonah's comment that "with the formation of the so-called OCA “the presence of any other jurisdiction on American territory becomes uncanonical, and membership in the Synod of the Orthodox Church in America becomes the criterion of canonicity of all bishops in America."  It hit too close to home.  Fact is, with the formation of the Orthodox Church in this country, and the formation of this country, there is a direct path that leads to the OCA as being the one bishop of the American cities that the canons call for.  It is the refusal of the precursors of the GOA to acknowledge this that has led to the jurisdictional mess.  Not the refusal to share in delusions as to the meaning of canon 28 of Chalcedon.

Quote
The speech itself is actually pointless. 
No, it is pointed.  Like a missile.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 11:00:57 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,444


WWW
« Reply #157 on: March 29, 2009, 02:39:48 AM »

The Russians are known throughout history as a xenophobic people; Yet, they evangelized the Aleuts, Inuits and others while the "subjects" of the under the Byzantine Ottoman Empire either ratted each other out to Ottoman officials,...

I had to correct my own mistake  Embarrassed; My apologies.   angel
Logged
SDMPNS
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: raised in Metropolia which became the OCA now I belong to a GOA parish..
Posts: 540


Praise God for the beauty of Creation


« Reply #158 on: March 29, 2009, 07:57:40 AM »

If the OCA can get its act together and if Met. Jonah turns out to be a good Metropolitan I have no problem with the OCA being the "Church" in America. I remember when a group left the GOA parish here in 2007 to start their own parish because the priest wanted more greek in the service they refused to even consider the OCA because of how it appeared to them.
I grew up in what became the OCA. I remember my mother telling me during the Cuban Missle Crisis that I was not to say that I was "Russian " Orthodox.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #159 on: March 29, 2009, 10:33:45 PM »

1.  What does this bit of EP bashing have to do with Tamara's sentiments?
2.  What does this bit of EP bashing have to do with the decision of the Holy Synod of Antioch, the subject of this thread?
3.  If you want nothing to do with the doctrines of the EP, then why are you still in the Antiochian church, which just happens to be in communion with the very EP you just dragged through the mud?

IOW, if you want to trash the EP like you just did, please don't derail this thread with such irrelevant tripe.

It's not irrelevant:

Reported on OrthodoxNews

Holy Cross Seminary has been in an uproar for the last few days. Below is a link to a speech given there on Monday:

Challenges of Orthodoxy in America And the Role of the Ecumenical Patriarchate
by Very Reverend Archimandrite Dr. Elpidophoros Lambriniadis
Chief Secretary of the Holy and Sacred Synod

Just scroll past the Greek and you will see the speech.
http://www.greekamericannewsagency.com/gana/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4771&Itemid=83

Quote
....Please allow me to conclude with the phrase of His Beatitude Ignatios Patriarch of Antioch during last October’s Synaxis of the Primates at the Phanar: “In the Orthodox Church we have one primus and he is the Patriarch of Constantinople.”

At present we (the Antiochians) are having hiearch problems which many are connecting to the EP.  I've received word from three dioceses that the deaneries are trying to decipher the cryptic final reference.   I might refrain from going through the Chief Secretary's speech during Lent, but since the seal is scheduled to be set during Bright Week, we don't have that luxury, if we want to stop Nektarios' "dream."
I'm afraid I'm not clear on what your talking about (I'm not up on all my cross-jurisdiction church situations and the politics behind thema).  If you get a minute, feel free to PM me and fill me in.  I'd be interested to know.

Out of respect for you and GI Day, and to honor St. Gregory V of Constantinople, I didn't post yesterday on this thread.  Just in case I might talk out of season.

It is going around the Antiochian deaneries, that there is talk that the Patriarch of Antioch might sell the archdiocese out to the EP, and that is in part what is behind the latest directives.  Hence the Chief Secretary's closing sentence is of great interest.

Now, not that we think that we are big potatoes or that, but just pawns in the show down between the EP and the PoM in this Great Synod that the EP is pushing for, and the Chief Secretary underlined.  It is harder for the EP to make his "28 canon" argument as long as Antioch, an older Patriarchate that owes nothing of her to existence to either Constantinople nor the Ecumenical Councils, has an Archdiocese here, with deeper and MORE CANONICAL roots, and autonomy.
If it's not irrelevant to this thread, then how come you needed to pull all this stuff over from another thread?
1. I'm lazy.
2. If someone wants the big picture, they can get the other parts there.

Quote
All you've done is show the proper place for the post I called and still call irrelevant.
Well, I guess we'll have to post it on that thread then, no?

Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #160 on: March 30, 2009, 08:59:41 AM »

Quote
It is the refusal of the precursors of the GOA to acknowledge this that has led to the jurisdictional mess.

There's plenty of blame to spread around for the ecclesiological disorganization in the Orthodox Church, of which the situation in North America is just one effect of.

The OCA can also look at itself and see all that it's done to make sure unity doesn't happen, and maybe they can also explain why a diocese of theirs right now is looking at splitting off.
Logged
GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #161 on: March 30, 2009, 10:56:54 AM »

Quote
It is the refusal of the precursors of the GOA to acknowledge this that has led to the jurisdictional mess.

There's plenty of blame to spread around for the ecclesiological disorganization in the Orthodox Church, of which the situation in North America is just one effect of.

The OCA can also look at itself and see all that it's done to make sure unity doesn't happen, and maybe they can also explain why a diocese of theirs right now is looking at splitting off.

I agree, and personally, since St. Paul himself tells us that love keeps no record of wrongs (1 Corinthians 13), I think it's time for us to step up to the plate, in the love that we profess but often don't actually hold, and stop blaming and start changing!  I think that's what the Chief Secretary was trying to do-- answer the allegations/comments with truth and love (he was direct, but not disrespectful) that were leveled by +JONAH and +PHILLIP and move forward, stating where he (not the Patriarchate, but he) stands on the situation.  That's just my personal opinion, though, not meant to offend anyone.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 10:57:12 AM by GreekChef » Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
rwprof
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA now, Antiochian originally
Posts: 294



« Reply #162 on: March 30, 2009, 11:13:35 AM »



I agree, and personally, since St. Paul himself tells us that love keeps no record of wrongs (1 Corinthians 13), I think it's time for us to step up to the plate, in the love that we profess but often don't actually hold, and stop blaming and start changing!

Agreed.

Quote
  I think that's what the Chief Secretary was trying to do-- answer the allegations/comments with truth and love (he was direct, but not disrespectful)

I suppose it depends on how one defines "disrespectful." Personally, I found it downright insulting, almost from beginning to end, without taking into account his statements about +Philip and +Jonah. Certainly, the oblivion about the United States displayed in the document demonstrates that valid or not, the EP has much homework to do before he lays claim to us.

American Orthodox unity is not going to come from foreign potentates.




Logged

Mark (rwprof) passed into eternal life on Jan 7, 2010.  May his memory be eternal!
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,641


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #163 on: March 30, 2009, 11:26:48 AM »

The OCA can also look at itself and see all that it's done to make sure unity doesn't happen, and maybe they can also explain why a diocese of theirs right now is looking at splitting off.
What diocese is that?
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #164 on: March 30, 2009, 11:31:50 AM »

Quote
It is the refusal of the precursors of the GOA to acknowledge this that has led to the jurisdictional mess.

There's plenty of blame to spread around for the ecclesiological disorganization in the Orthodox Church, of which the situation in North America is just one effect of.

The OCA can also look at itself and see all that it's done to make sure unity doesn't happen, and maybe they can also explain why a diocese of theirs right now is looking at splitting off.

Are you refering to the Romanians?

The OCA's main part has been squandering oppurtunities, and mismanagement.  The vision that Met. Jonah exposed, and the Chief Secretary criticized, is part of the solution (actually, the core of the solution) not the problem.  More of the Phanariot vision is part (actually, the core) of the problem.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,641


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #165 on: March 30, 2009, 12:06:45 PM »

What's clear to me in all of this is unity is moving backwards.  There would be unity tomorrow if people wanted it, but the fact is they don't.  Who settled Alaska when, etc., etc., etc.  Blah, Blah, Blah.
I suppose we can have unity tomorrow if we follow your all-too-simplistic suggestion to ignore and gloss over the differences that divide us.  But how does this accomplish true unity?  The issues that divide us will not go away by themselves.  If we don't address them head on and actually seek to resolve them, they will likely explode and destroy any pseudo-unity we put together.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #166 on: March 30, 2009, 12:27:16 PM »

Speaking of making claims, I just found out that the Patriarch of Romania, according its Statutes (Chapter II. A. Article 25(2))
http://www.patriarhia.ro/en/
Quote
his title is "His Beatitude (N), Archbishop of Bucharest, Metropolitan of Muntenia and Dobrugea, Locum Tenens of the Throne of Caesarea of Cappodocia and Patriarch of the Romanian Orthodox Church...

What's up with Caesare of Cappodocia, way over in Anatolia, does the E.P. know about this?  His Chief Secretary?

Anyone know the history of this?

On another note:
Since the Greek Orthodox Church is the oldest within the continental United States (Alaska was not a state), and since it is the largest jurisdiction, and since it is under the authority of the Ecumenical Patriarch, and since nations do not traditionally have their own national jurisdictions unless their people are Orthodox, the best solution for unity would be if all jurisdictions were to unite under the Greek Orthodox Church.

Sorry, Russian Jurisdiction is well established at this point.

The Russians in the United States can maintain their traditions while being under the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in America. Otherwise, the Greeks can be under the Russian Patriarch. I don't really care. We just need to end this division among jurisdictional lines. We also need to end this OCA autocephaly nonsense.

A poster after the Chief Secretary's own heart.  What "autocephaly" nonsense is unspecified, just derived.  The same making diaspora of the natives ("AK not a state": neither was FL or LA).  The reason why we need to bring history in, to clue people in.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 12:58:29 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #167 on: March 30, 2009, 01:55:23 PM »

I suppose we can have unity tomorrow if we follow your all-too-simplistic suggestion to ignore and gloss over the differences that divide us.  But how does this accomplish true unity?  The issues that divide us will not go away by themselves.  If we don't address them head on and actually seek to resolve them, they will likely explode and destroy any pseudo-unity we put together.

Peter, the reality is people don't want unity; and when they say they do, it usually just means they want it around their vision of things and on their terms.  The problems of course consist of but are not limited to:

- The GOA scrapped its constitution and put their Metropolitans on the Holy Synod of the EP.  Basically this is to make sure jurisdictional unity does not happen if not under the EP.
- Groups like the Serbs and the ROCOR (and others, possibly soon to be the Romanians as well) definitely do see themselves as diaspora churches and would not be interested in joining with anybody else.  Their vision is along national lines.
- The OCA has run itself so poorly that nobody wants to touch it with a 10 foot pole.  There's a reason why the AOA has never joined it.
- The AOA is now it seems getting ready to have a major internal donnybrook which could lead to a schism and more hard feelings.  It has certainly stepped back significantly from autonomy.

I'm sure I could keep listing reasons why unity is actually never going to happen.  In my own diocese I've heard a priest say from the pulpit it is our duty to make sure we always carry on as a distinct entity and not get folded in to some other church.  In the greater scheme of things, the Orthodox hierarchs worldwide don't seem to play and share well with others.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 01:55:59 PM by AMM » Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #168 on: March 30, 2009, 02:42:01 PM »

I suppose we can have unity tomorrow if we follow your all-too-simplistic suggestion to ignore and gloss over the differences that divide us.  But how does this accomplish true unity?  The issues that divide us will not go away by themselves.  If we don't address them head on and actually seek to resolve them, they will likely explode and destroy any pseudo-unity we put together.

Peter, the reality is people don't want unity; and when they say they do, it usually just means they want it around their vision of things and on their terms.  The problems of course consist of but are not limited to:

- The GOA scrapped its constitution and put their Metropolitans on the Holy Synod of the EP.  Basically this is to make sure jurisdictional unity does not happen if not under the EP.
- Groups like the Serbs and the ROCOR (and others, possibly soon to be the Romanians as well) definitely do see themselves as diaspora churches and would not be interested in joining with anybody else.  Their vision is along national lines.
- The OCA has run itself so poorly that nobody wants to touch it with a 10 foot pole.  There's a reason why the AOA has never joined it.
- The AOA is now it seems getting ready to have a major internal donnybrook which could lead to a schism and more hard feelings.  It has certainly stepped back significantly from autonomy.

I'm sure I could keep listing reasons why unity is actually never going to happen.  In my own diocese I've heard a priest say from the pulpit it is our duty to make sure we always carry on as a distinct entity and not get folded in to some other church.  In the greater scheme of things, the Orthodox hierarchs worldwide don't seem to play and share well with others.

Correction: The GOA did NOT make these changes. The patriarch imposed them.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #169 on: March 30, 2009, 03:18:22 PM »

You are correct, "had its constitution scrapped" is what I meant.
Logged
orthodoxlurker
Supporter & Defender of Fr Ambrose (Irish Hermit) - banned
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian - NOT a phanariote
Jurisdiction: Serbian Patriarchate under siege
Posts: 1,372


al-Saabir yaraa al-Hurriyah


« Reply #170 on: March 30, 2009, 07:58:08 PM »

It is enlightening to read the discovery that the people would love unity (assuming there is no unity now?) under their own terms and vision and not under someone's else vision and terms.
Logged

Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #171 on: March 31, 2009, 09:26:56 AM »

Like this?

No, like this

Quote
The Russian Orthodox prelate spoke of one of the main points of conflict in the path toward unity between Orthodox and Catholics -- the figure of the Bishop of Rome.

Bishop Alfeev explained: "According to the document, 'communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles.'

"Therefore the Orthodox Churches by virtue of being not in communion with the Bishop of Rome 'lack something in their condition as particular churches.'

"We, the Orthodox, believe that, being not in communion with them, the Roman Catholic Church 'lacks something in its condition.'"

However, Bishop Alfeev expressed his hope that both Churches give priority to unity.

http://www.zenit.org/article-20104?l=english

Now, I imagine most people will shriek "no, that's not true!", and Orthodoxy will continue in a state of perpetual internal schism - whether it's the Old Believer's, the Old Calendarists, the "True" Churches, the fight between the EP & MP or the spread of Orthodox denominations (because this is what they are) in North America, etc.

I will just repeat what I've said elsewhere.  Unity in North America won't happen, because people don't want it to, irrespective of the above.  The scary thing in this thread is the belief that basically all the overseas hierarchies are corrupt and untrustworthy, and that our best bet is relying on a body that has a recent proven track record of malfeasance.  Maybe the long term vision will be like this for some:

http://www.aoiusa.org/main/page.php?page_id=127

and American Orthodoxy will basically be just like any other non profit out there.  Run like the associated federation of organizations.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 09:27:48 AM by AMM » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #172 on: March 31, 2009, 09:59:13 AM »

I will just repeat what I've said elsewhere.  Unity in North America won't happen, because people don't want it to, irrespective of the above. 

In a way, I agree, but in another way, I disagree. I agree that unity in N.America won't happen as a result of the actions of the clergy or laity of N.America. But such a unity can (and will) happen from the top-down. Because the problems exist among the local Churches in N.America (and the IONA, and Australia, and New Zealand etc), these problems can only be solved by an authority which is greater than the local Churches- that is, an Ecumenical Synod.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
AMM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 2,076


« Reply #173 on: March 31, 2009, 10:38:13 AM »

I will just repeat what I've said elsewhere.  Unity in North America won't happen, because people don't want it to, irrespective of the above. 

In a way, I agree, but in another way, I disagree. I agree that unity in N.America won't happen as a result of the actions of the clergy or laity of N.America. But such a unity can (and will) happen from the top-down. Because the problems exist among the local Churches in N.America (and the IONA, and Australia, and New Zealand etc), these problems can only be solved by an authority which is greater than the local Churches- that is, an Ecumenical Synod.

Exactly ozgeorge, and that is what Fr. Elpidophoros Lambriniadis was saying in my opinion when he said

Let me add that the refusal to recognize primacy within the Orthodox Church, a primacy that necessarily cannot but be embodied by a primus (that is by a bishop who has the prerogative of being the first among his fellow bishops) constitutes nothing less than heresy. It cannot be accepted, as often it is said, that the unity among the Orthodox Churches is safeguarded by either a common norm of faith and worship or by the Ecumenical Council as an institution. Both of these factors are impersonal while in our Orthodox theology the principle of unity is always a person.

http://www.greekamericannewsagency.com/gana/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4771&Itemid=83

The inability to achieve unity is quite apparent.  Not only do some want to jettison primacy (which is intrinsic with synodality), but what they really want is to reduce the status of the bishops themselves and have everything ultimately be accountable to the laity.
Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,865



« Reply #174 on: March 31, 2009, 11:01:55 AM »

Thank you AMM for posting the latest reflection by George C. Michalopulos (http://www.aoiusa.org/main/page.php?page_id=127). Of course, I must disagree with your conclusion that "and American Orthodoxy will basically be just like any other non profit out there.  Run like the associated federation of organizations." The vision of Mr. Michalopulos is that of a hierarchical church in North America. How we get there is the difficulty.

You and I are in complete opposition regarding the views of the Chief Secretary of the Holy Synod of Constantinople. Sorry, but I happen to think that the heresy is with the learned doctor for he espouses a papist view.

Finally, if the only way to achieve unity in the New World is by moving the "Ecumenical" Patriarchate to Washington or New York, I would have no problem with it provided the current Phanariots stayed behind to tend to the three Canon 28 dioceses as an eparchy. The bishops, metropolitans and Patriarch of North America must be North Americans--born and raised here, with no dual-loyalties.

Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #175 on: March 31, 2009, 11:04:05 AM »

Like this?

No, like this

Quote
The Russian Orthodox prelate spoke of one of the main points of conflict in the path toward unity between Orthodox and Catholics -- the figure of the Bishop of Rome.

Bishop Alfeev explained: "According to the document, 'communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles.'

"Therefore the Orthodox Churches by virtue of being not in communion with the Bishop of Rome 'lack something in their condition as particular churches.'

"We, the Orthodox, believe that, being not in communion with them, the Roman Catholic Church 'lacks something in its condition.'"

However, Bishop Alfeev expressed his hope that both Churches give priority to unity.

http://www.zenit.org/article-20104?l=english

You missed a spot:
Quote
"For us," Bishop Alfeev explained, "'to subsist' means precisely 'to be present and to be operative,' and we believe that the Church of Christ subsists, is present and is operative in the Orthodox Church."

However, the prelate also affirmed that the Orthodox Churches share the Catholic Church's understanding of other ecclesial communities.

"With regard to the Orthodox Churches," he said, "the document states that 'these Churches, although separated [from Rome], have true sacraments and above all -- because of the apostolic succession -- the priesthood and the Eucharist.' Thus, apostolic succession and the sacraments are indicated as essential marks of the Church.

"The Orthodox also believe that apostolic succession and the sacraments are essential marks of the Church.

"This is why the Orthodox will agree that those ecclesial communities which do not enjoy apostolic succession and have not preserved the genuine understanding of the Eucharist and other sacraments cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense."

"The division between the Orthodox and the Protestants," Bishop Alfeev underlined, "is therefore much more profound and substantial than the division between the Orthodox and the Catholics."

Orthodox Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk and Kaliningrad, who heads the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations, said to journalists in Moscow that the document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith can help to achieve unity, precisely because "for an honest theological dialogue to happen, one should have a clear view of the position of the other side."

He added, "It helps understand how different we are."

Quote
Now, I imagine most people will shriek "no, that's not true!", and Orthodoxy will continue in a state of perpetual internal schism - whether it's the Old Believer's, the Old Calendarists, the "True" Churches, the fight between the EP & MP or the spread of Orthodox denominations (because this is what they are) in North America, etc.
Yes, WITHIN Orthodoxy, they are "demoninations," in the sense that yes, it all the same.

That is not how it has always been: as someone posted elsewhere, the OCA was out of communion with most until 1970, off and on.  The EP had sent a decree that the newly autocephalous OCA was in schism: Arb. Iakovos of blessed memory refused to publish the decree, and we all have been intercommuning ever since.

The Old Believer's, the Old Calendarists and the "True" Churches aren't even in communion with each other, let alone the rest of Orthodoxy. So, how are they a "denomination?"

Quote
I will just repeat what I've said elsewhere.  Unity in North America won't happen, because people don't want it to, irrespective of the above. 
It was far worse in the past, one reason to bring up the past: reminders of how far we have come.
Quote
The scary thing in this thread is the belief that basically all the overseas hierarchies are corrupt and untrustworthy, and that our best bet is relying on a body that has a recent proven track record of malfeasance.
Odd that you should say that, just after saying this:
He gives us pause to think; but like the Lutherans, there will be no unity until there is unity with Rome.
Perhaps you have heard about a certain scandal about priests etc. being moved about here in an effort to cover up by a certain ecclesiastical organization abroad, including removing a bishop from accountability by relocating him to said organization's foreign and independent center.

Btw, you side stepped this issue in my OP above: look at Rome's track record on unity.

Quote
Maybe the long term vision will be like this for some:

http://www.aoiusa.org/main/page.php?page_id=127

A good proposal, the glaring problem is that it ignores Canada on the one hand, and Latin America on the other.

Quote
and American Orthodoxy will basically be just like any other non profit out there.  Run like the associated federation of organizations.
And submission to a foreign, captive, autocrat is going to solve that? Roll Eyes
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #176 on: March 31, 2009, 11:05:55 AM »

[Exactly ozgeorge, and that is what Fr. Elpidophoros Lambriniadis was saying in my opinion when he said

Let me add that the refusal to recognize primacy within the Orthodox Church, a primacy that necessarily cannot but be embodied by a primus (that is by a bishop who has the prerogative of being the first among his fellow bishops) constitutes nothing less than heresy

Oh my goodness!   How many of us knew that we had a global Protos 10 years ago, 20 years ago?   Have we all been heretics for not knowing this?  Unwitting heretics?  Why didn't somebody tell us?   A few magazine articles?  Some encyclicals?  Have the theologians been sleeping?    Grin
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #177 on: March 31, 2009, 11:12:22 AM »

I will just repeat what I've said elsewhere.  Unity in North America won't happen, because people don't want it to, irrespective of the above.

In a way, I agree, but in another way, I disagree. I agree that unity in N.America won't happen as a result of the actions of the clergy or laity of N.America. But such a unity can (and will) happen from the top-down. Because the problems exist among the local Churches in N.America (and the IONA, and Australia, and New Zealand etc), these problems can only be solved by an authority which is greater than the local Churches- that is, an Ecumenical Synod.

Like the one that the EP is chomping at the bit to hold, he setting the agenda (and its conclusions) of course?

Exactly ozgeorge, and that is what Fr. Elpidophoros Lambriniadis was saying in my opinion when he said

Let me add that the refusal to recognize primacy within the Orthodox Church, a primacy that necessarily cannot but be embodied by a primus (that is by a bishop who has the prerogative of being the first among his fellow bishops) constitutes nothing less than heresy. It cannot be accepted, as often it is said, that the unity among the Orthodox Churches is safeguarded by either a common norm of faith and worship or by the Ecumenical Council as an institution. Both of these factors are impersonal while in our Orthodox theology the principle of unity is always a person.

http://www.greekamericannewsagency.com/gana/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4771&Itemid=83

The inability to achieve unity is quite apparent.  Not only do some want to jettison primacy (which is intrinsic with synodality), but what they really want is to reduce the status of the bishops themselves and have everything ultimately be accountable to the laity.
No, as the uproar amongst the Antiochians shows, they reject the ersatz papal pretensions.  If we wanted Ultramontanism, we could go to Old Rome and have it straight.

Can anyone, here or on the thread
- The GOA scrapped its constitution and put their Metropolitans on the Holy Synod of the EP.  Basically this is to make sure jurisdictional unity does not happen if not under the EP.

I'm sure I could keep listing reasons why unity is actually never going to happen.  In my own diocese I've heard a priest say from the pulpit it is our duty to make sure we always carry on as a distinct entity and not get folded in to some other church.  In the greater scheme of things, the Orthodox hierarchs worldwide don't seem to play and share well with others.
show anywhere where this "protos" nonsense has ever appeared in Orthodox ecclesiology?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #178 on: March 31, 2009, 11:18:19 AM »

Finally, if the only way to achieve unity in the New World is by moving the "Ecumenical" Patriarchate to Washington or New York,

I think that unity will come when we all agree that the global Protos for the Orthodox world is the Patriarch of Moscow.

Then we shall proceed to bring sense and unity to the diaspora.

We have well developed plans for this and will create three Metropolia to unite the disapora.

R.O.M.E.........the Russian Orthodox Metropolia of Europe
.
R.O.M.A.........the Russian Orthodox Metropolia of the Americas

R.O.M.A.N.Z.. the Russian Orthodox Metropolia of Australia and New Zealand

Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,865



« Reply #179 on: March 31, 2009, 12:12:52 PM »

Irish Hermit: You witty but naughty person!


PS: Your etiquette also falls short--it should be "The Great and All Holy Global Protos."

 laugh
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Tags: cheval mort Archimandrite Elpidophoros 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.247 seconds with 72 queries.