Author Topic: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa  (Read 12457 times)

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Offline Heorhij

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #135 on: March 24, 2009, 01:36:15 PM »
Sex DOES have a holy unitive aspect to it when shared in the marriage bed---but the primary aspect is PROCREATIVE and should not be actively and artificially impeded. That's God's territory.
I'm sorry, but we are just not going to agree with you, or the Pope, on this issue. There are many aspects to sex, and procreation is merely one of them. Then again, the Catholic church did always have a tough time with the idea of "first among equals." ;)

Don't blame us, blame the Fathers.

This capitulation among almost every Christian communion beginning in the middle of the 20th century is striking, to say the least.
Should it be so striking that we at least recognize the need for pastoral sensitivity to real life situations and don't just believe in enforcing the strict letter of the law as this has been laid down from the ivory tower of the Vatican?
Precisely. It is not capitulation to have mercy on certain individuals, depending on their particular needs and situations. On the contrary, it is Christian. Remember the woman who committed adultery? The law demanded that she be put to death. Christ refused to follow the letter of the law, but instead showed her mercy and allowed her to repent and turn from her ways. Did Christ in so doing claim that adultery is not immoral? By no means! Yet he also showed that strictly enforcing the letter of the law is not always the best way to govern the Church.

But why at all compare contraception with adultery? Are there any doctrinal decisions of the WHOLE Church (not just papal encyclicas like Humanae Vitae) that unequivocally declare that having marital relations while being protected or closed against conception is in any way sinful?
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #136 on: March 24, 2009, 02:36:32 PM »
Whenever I read 1Cor. 7, I feel St. Paul is not implying that the main point of marriage is to give birth to children, but rather a mutual union of man and woman, especially in sexual matters.

In the Old Testament, it seemed that marriage was a union for giving birth, but as we learn from the NT, you don't have to be a biological father to be a father.  This changes the framework of marriage, for although we might imitate Christ's relationship with the Church, we are also considered "sons" by adoption.

In the Old, it was be fruitful and multiply in a literal sense.  Now, we should be fruitful and multiply in an evangelical sense.  The Old cared about descendants of Jacob.  The New cares about adoptions into the Church.  This definitely should change the framework of marriage.

I have a feeling the Holy Fathers thought such about contraception not because of marriage relationships, but because they felt the seed was a human being, a full human person.  Ejaculation to them was abortion.

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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #137 on: March 24, 2009, 06:29:54 PM »

Precisely. It is not capitulation to have mercy on certain individuals, depending on their particular needs and situations. On the contrary, it is Christian. Remember the woman who committed adultery? The law demanded that she be put to death. Christ refused to follow the letter of the law, but instead showed her mercy and allowed her to repent and turn from her ways. Did Christ in so doing claim that adultery is not immoral? By no means! Yet he also showed that strictly enforcing the letter of the law is not always the best way to govern the Church.

Last time I checked, Jesus didn't say, "Go and sin more."

You're basically saying, if people fail to live up to a standard, why have a standard at all?

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #138 on: March 25, 2009, 11:56:07 AM »
Sex DOES have a holy unitive aspect to it when shared in the marriage bed---but the primary aspect is PROCREATIVE and should not be actively and artificially impeded. That's God's territory.
I'm sorry, but we are just not going to agree with you, or the Pope, on this issue. There are many aspects to sex, and procreation is merely one of them. Then again, the Catholic church did always have a tough time with the idea of "first among equals." ;)

Don't blame us, blame the Fathers.

This capitulation among almost every Christian communion beginning in the middle of the 20th century is striking, to say the least.
Should it be so striking that we at least recognize the need for pastoral sensitivity to real life situations and don't just believe in enforcing the strict letter of the law as this has been laid down from the ivory tower of the Vatican?
Precisely. It is not capitulation to have mercy on certain individuals, depending on their particular needs and situations. On the contrary, it is Christian. Remember the woman who committed adultery? The law demanded that she be put to death. Christ refused to follow the letter of the law, but instead showed her mercy and allowed her to repent and turn from her ways. Did Christ in so doing claim that adultery is not immoral? By no means! Yet he also showed that strictly enforcing the letter of the law is not always the best way to govern the Church.

But why at all compare contraception with adultery? Are there any doctrinal decisions of the WHOLE Church (not just papal encyclicas like Humanae Vitae) that unequivocally declare that having marital relations while being protected or closed against conception is in any way sinful?
No, but since the Pope has said this, I thought the comparison warranted. It's not so much a comparison of contraception with adultery as it is Catholicism with Pharasaism.
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #139 on: March 25, 2009, 11:56:41 AM »

Precisely. It is not capitulation to have mercy on certain individuals, depending on their particular needs and situations. On the contrary, it is Christian. Remember the woman who committed adultery? The law demanded that she be put to death. Christ refused to follow the letter of the law, but instead showed her mercy and allowed her to repent and turn from her ways. Did Christ in so doing claim that adultery is not immoral? By no means! Yet he also showed that strictly enforcing the letter of the law is not always the best way to govern the Church.

Last time I checked, Jesus didn't say, "Go and sin more."

You're basically saying, if people fail to live up to a standard, why have a standard at all?

No. Not at all.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline Heorhij

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #140 on: March 25, 2009, 12:12:26 PM »

But why at all compare contraception with adultery? Are there any doctrinal decisions of the WHOLE Church (not just papal encyclicas like Humanae Vitae) that unequivocally declare that having marital relations while being protected or closed against conception is in any way sinful?

No, but since the Pope has said this, I thought the comparison warranted. It's not so much a comparison of contraception with adultery as it is Catholicism with Pharasaism.

Thank you for clarification. Unfortunately, however, every now and then I hear from the Orthodox people (even on this site!) that "contraception is sinful." And I never heard any compelling arguments that it is so.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 12:12:45 PM by Heorhij »
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Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #141 on: March 25, 2009, 12:30:49 PM »

Precisely. It is not capitulation to have mercy on certain individuals, depending on their particular needs and situations. On the contrary, it is Christian. Remember the woman who committed adultery? The law demanded that she be put to death. Christ refused to follow the letter of the law, but instead showed her mercy and allowed her to repent and turn from her ways. Did Christ in so doing claim that adultery is not immoral? By no means! Yet he also showed that strictly enforcing the letter of the law is not always the best way to govern the Church.

Last time I checked, Jesus didn't say, "Go and sin more."

You're basically saying, if people fail to live up to a standard, why have a standard at all?


Here's my post-modern ecumenical quip that most here on both sides of the issue will probably shoot down:

Who says that the Africans want your Christian (RC) morality? Perhaps they consider their sexual morality to be just fine and have no interest in accepting yet another Western, almost paternalistic program for their "betterment".

You're basically saying, if you can't live up to the Roman Church's understanding of morality, then you're a sinner. Condoms only reinforce your sinful behavior. Therefore, you shouldn't receive condoms because it only encourages our understanding of living an unholy life. If you can't live up to our standards or holiness then just go on your way and get HIV.  When enforcing your morality is potentially at the expense of the lives of people who are contracting HIV left and right, what kind of morality is it really?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 12:32:24 PM by Bogoliubtsy »
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #142 on: March 25, 2009, 04:51:37 PM »

But why at all compare contraception with adultery? Are there any doctrinal decisions of the WHOLE Church (not just papal encyclicas like Humanae Vitae) that unequivocally declare that having marital relations while being protected or closed against conception is in any way sinful?

No, but since the Pope has said this, I thought the comparison warranted. It's not so much a comparison of contraception with adultery as it is Catholicism with Pharasaism.

Thank you for clarification. Unfortunately, however, every now and then I hear from the Orthodox people (even on this site!) that "contraception is sinful." And I never heard any compelling arguments that it is so.
Sadly, I hear this too. And neither have I heard any good arguments that it is sinful. We choose to avoid "the pill" because of medical complications--my mother has been a nurse for thirty years and is quite familiar with the science of it. But for us, it's not a decision with any more religious significance than any other.
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Offline Quinault

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #143 on: March 25, 2009, 05:04:34 PM »
I would say that utilizing contraception without thinking and praying about it is unwise. Children are a blessing to be sure (otherwise I would have eaten them by now being a single parent! ;) ) But we all have to approach "family planning" with a realistic view of both what your family can handle, and to have faith that God will provide. So limiting your children to 2 simply because that is "a nice even number" or other arbitrary reasons isn't a good idea. But then just having baby after baby in spite of the fact that your health is deteriorating and your finances are in collapse isn't a good idea either. It could be that two children are all that you should have. But the decision needs to be a bit deeper than an arbitrary number that has been fulfilled.

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #144 on: March 25, 2009, 10:32:29 PM »
No matter how many times you say condom distribution will reduce HIV, it doesn't make it true.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MTNlNDc1MmMwNDM0OTEzMjQ4NDc0ZGUyOWYxNmEzN2E=


When enforcing your morality is potentially at the expense of the lives of people who are contracting HIV left and right, what kind of morality is it really?

You should turn this on yourself and all the others who satisfy themselves that Africans by their nature are irreformably promiscuous and thus should be flooded with condoms. Over 20 million dead---how many more have to die before the condom merchants give up?

I wonder how many of these people would have so-called "safe" sex with someone they knew was HIV positive. But I guess it is okay for Africans to be encouraged to play the Russian roulette of condoms.