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Author Topic: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa  (Read 10570 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2009, 01:25:40 PM »

So the ends justify the means? We should be encouraging people to engage in that which is intrinsically evil (contraception) in order to avoid another evil (HIV)?

Your Pope says condoms are evil.
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« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2009, 02:08:19 PM »

Take control of their sexual lives.  Who would have thought? Roll Eyes I mean, they are going to do it anyways.

I read that article as promoting a both / and approach: fidelity education and condom usage. 
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« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2009, 02:19:59 PM »

Take control of their sexual lives.  Who would have thought? Roll Eyes I mean, they are going to do it anyways.

I read that article as promoting a both / and approach: fidelity education and condom usage. 

I read it the same way. We must both be crazy.
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« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2009, 02:22:58 PM »

Take control of their sexual lives.  Who would have thought? Roll Eyes I mean, they are going to do it anyways.

I read that article as promoting a both / and approach: fidelity education and condom usage.  

I read it the same way. We must both be crazy.

No, I'm the crazy one for somehow agreeing with you on something... Cheesy
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« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2009, 02:25:34 PM »

Take control of their sexual lives.  Who would have thought? Roll Eyes I mean, they are going to do it anyways.

I read that article as promoting a both / and approach: fidelity education and condom usage.  

I read it the same way. We must both be crazy.

No, I'm the crazy one for somehow agreeing with you on something... Cheesy

Come over to the dark side.  Smiley
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« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2009, 03:01:42 PM »

Take control of their sexual lives.  Who would have thought? Roll Eyes I mean, they are going to do it anyways.

I read that article as promoting a both / and approach: fidelity education and condom usage. 

I read it the same way. We must both be crazy.
Roll Eyes
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« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2009, 04:33:10 PM »

Just a gentle suggestion, but perhaps instead of reading what the media reported, we might read what Benedict actually said.

Quote
"It is my belief that the most effective presence on the front in the battle against HIV/AIDS is precisely the Catholic Church and her institutions. I think of the Community of Sant’ Egidio, which does so much, visibly and invisibly to fight AIDS, of the Camillians, of all the nuns that are at the service of the sick.

“I would say that this problem of AIDS cannot be overcome with advertising slogans. If the soul is lacking, if Africans do not help one another, the scourge cannot be resolved by distributing condoms; quite the contrary, we risk worsening the problem. The solution can only come through a twofold commitment: firstly, the humanization of sexuality, in other words a spiritual and human renewal bringing a new way of behaving towards one another; and secondly, true friendship, above all with those who are suffering, a readiness - even through personal sacrifice - to be present with those who suffer. And these are the factors that help and bring visible progress.

“Therefore, I would say that our double effort is to renew the human person internally, to give spiritual and human strength to a way of behaving that is just towards our own body and the other person’s body; and this capacity of suffering with those who suffer, to remain present in trying situations.

“I believe that this is the first response [to AIDS] and that this is what the Church does, and thus, she offers a great and important contribution. And we are grateful to those that do this.”

Full text: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15403
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« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2009, 05:49:46 PM »

So the ends justify the means? We should be encouraging people to engage in that which is intrinsically evil (contraception) in order to avoid another evil (HIV)?

Your Pope says condoms are evil.
So do the Church fathers, as did Eastern Orthodoxy at one time.
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« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2009, 05:51:39 PM »

So the ends justify the means? We should be encouraging people to engage in that which is intrinsically evil (contraception) in order to avoid another evil (HIV)?

Your Pope says condoms are evil.
So do the Church fathers, as did Eastern Orthodoxy at one time.

ROFL!
You can't be serious! Which Church Fathers forbade condoms?
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« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2009, 06:04:22 PM »

So the ends justify the means? We should be encouraging people to engage in that which is intrinsically evil (contraception) in order to avoid another evil (HIV)?

If one must prevent HIV, then abstinence makes sense.  Nevertheless, if one must have sex, why can't we promote the use of condoms to prevent HIV?  Do we really want to act like fundamentalists who wish disease upon the abominable fornicators and homosexuals?  This is the Pope who is against the death penalty, right?
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« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2009, 06:09:11 PM »

So the ends justify the means? We should be encouraging people to engage in that which is intrinsically evil (contraception) in order to avoid another evil (HIV)?

If one must prevent HIV, then abstinence makes sense.  Nevertheless, if one must have sex, why can't we promote the use of condoms to prevent HIV?  Don't you think it's waaaaaaaaaaaaay much better than having sex unprotected?  Do we really want to act like fundamentalists who wish disease upon the abominable fornicators and homosexuals?  Not only do you prevent disease, but unwanted abortion under Papal definition.

This is the Pope who is against the death penalty, right?  Just as one may take a position of love towards murderers so that they may not be killed under law, why not offer the same love to promiscuous people, in hopes that they may repent in good health some day?
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« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2009, 06:23:30 PM »

Just a gentle suggestion, but perhaps instead of reading what the media reported, we might read what Benedict actually said.

Don't confuse people with the facts.
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« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2009, 06:31:01 PM »

So the ends justify the means? We should be encouraging people to engage in that which is intrinsically evil (contraception) in order to avoid another evil (HIV)?

If one must prevent HIV, then abstinence makes sense.  Nevertheless, if one must have sex, why can't we promote the use of condoms to prevent HIV?  Don't you think it's waaaaaaaaaaaaay much better than having sex unprotected?  Do we really want to act like fundamentalists who wish disease upon the abominable fornicators and homosexuals?  Not only do you prevent disease, but unwanted abortion under Papal definition.

Contrast:

“I am often asked whether there will ever be a cure for H.I.V./AIDS, and my answer is that there is already a cure,” she says. “It lies in the strength of women, families and communities who support and empower each other to break the silence around AIDS and take control of their sexual lives.”

How about giving out condemns to adulterers?  After all, in those circumstances a disease or pregnancy would be a whole host of problems.

Quote
This is the Pope who is against the death penalty, right?  Just as one may take a position of love towards murderers so that they may not be killed under law, why not offer the same love to promiscuous people, in hopes that they may repent in good health some day?
Your analogy is off: if the pope, gave the murder more human ways of doing his craft (say, poison instead of a knife) your analogy would be more in line.
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« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2009, 07:15:19 PM »

Quote
You can't be serious! Which Church Fathers forbade condoms?

Latex condoms in fancy packaging? They didn't. The ancient equivalent of condoms though, they did, and they unfortunately condemned all other forms of birth control as well.
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« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2009, 09:20:32 PM »

You guys are confusing issues.  It is one thing to hope that if someone falls into sin they take precaution.  It is another to have an AIDS epidemic and act as if condoms are the solution when statistics show they are not.

Bingo!!!





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« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2009, 09:25:58 PM »

Just to clarify, does anyone here intentionally never wear their seatbelts? 

Many people did before it become federal law......or something like that.

I didn't always put one on. It took the police to make me change my mind. Now I put one on all the time.

it's the law.  police





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« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2009, 09:29:19 PM »



Thank You!!!




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« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2009, 09:31:35 PM »

Just a gentle suggestion, but perhaps instead of reading what the media reported, we might read what Benedict actually said.

Quote
"It is my belief that the most effective presence on the front in the battle against HIV/AIDS is precisely the Catholic Church and her institutions. I think of the Community of Sant’ Egidio, which does so much, visibly and invisibly to fight AIDS, of the Camillians, of all the nuns that are at the service of the sick.

“I would say that this problem of AIDS cannot be overcome with advertising slogans. If the soul is lacking, if Africans do not help one another, the scourge cannot be resolved by distributing condoms; quite the contrary, we risk worsening the problem. The solution can only come through a twofold commitment: firstly, the humanization of sexuality, in other words a spiritual and human renewal bringing a new way of behaving towards one another; and secondly, true friendship, above all with those who are suffering, a readiness - even through personal sacrifice - to be present with those who suffer. And these are the factors that help and bring visible progress.

“Therefore, I would say that our double effort is to renew the human person internally, to give spiritual and human strength to a way of behaving that is just towards our own body and the other person’s body; and this capacity of suffering with those who suffer, to remain present in trying situations.

“I believe that this is the first response [to AIDS] and that this is what the Church does, and thus, she offers a great and important contribution. And we are grateful to those that do this.”

Full text: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15403

So, in other words, at least in this quote here, the Pope is not condemning condoms themselves, but he's condemning the idea that condoms alone will solve the problem.
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« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2009, 09:33:01 PM »

over a decade of throwing condoms at Africans
They don't work if you just throw them at people. They actually have to put them on.



You still have to worry about body fluid. A condom won't protect your waste, thighs, and other places in that same area.


1.) Clean water

2.) Regular Soap, Anti-Bacterial Soap, & Anti-fungal Soap

3.) Bio-Hazard materials to discard used condoms in the area
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« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2009, 09:33:41 PM »

Just a gentle suggestion, but perhaps instead of reading what the media reported, we might read what Benedict actually said.

Quote
"It is my belief that the most effective presence on the front in the battle against HIV/AIDS is precisely the Catholic Church and her institutions. I think of the Community of Sant’ Egidio, which does so much, visibly and invisibly to fight AIDS, of the Camillians, of all the nuns that are at the service of the sick.

“I would say that this problem of AIDS cannot be overcome with advertising slogans. If the soul is lacking, if Africans do not help one another, the scourge cannot be resolved by distributing condoms; quite the contrary, we risk worsening the problem. The solution can only come through a twofold commitment: firstly, the humanization of sexuality, in other words a spiritual and human renewal bringing a new way of behaving towards one another; and secondly, true friendship, above all with those who are suffering, a readiness - even through personal sacrifice - to be present with those who suffer. And these are the factors that help and bring visible progress.

“Therefore, I would say that our double effort is to renew the human person internally, to give spiritual and human strength to a way of behaving that is just towards our own body and the other person’s body; and this capacity of suffering with those who suffer, to remain present in trying situations.

“I believe that this is the first response [to AIDS] and that this is what the Church does, and thus, she offers a great and important contribution. And we are grateful to those that do this.”

Full text: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15403

So, in other words, at least in this quote here, the Pope is not condemning condoms themselves, but he's condemning the idea that condoms alone will solve the problem.


Bingo!!!





JNORM888
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« Reply #65 on: March 20, 2009, 12:26:44 PM »


Quote
March 19, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Edward C. Green, director of the AIDS Prevention Research Project at the Harvard Center for Population and Development Studies, has said that the evidence confirms that the Pope is correct in his assessment that condom distribution exacerbates the problem of AIDS.

"The pope is correct," Green told National Review Online Wednesday, "or put it a better way, the best evidence we have supports the pope's comments."

"There is," Green added, "a consistent association shown by our best studies, including the U.S.-funded 'Demographic Health Surveys,' between greater availability and use of condoms and higher (not lower) HIV-infection rates. This may be due in part to a phenomenon known as risk compensation, meaning that when one uses a risk-reduction 'technology' such as condoms, one often loses the benefit (reduction in risk) by 'compensating' or taking greater chances than one would take without the risk-reduction technology." ( see the full interview with Green here)

It should be noted that Green seems to be referring to studies in Africa, rather than in America. I don't know if studies among Americans have shown an increase in HIV-infection rates associated with greater availability and use of condoms.

And in the full interview:

Quote
Green added: “I also noticed that the pope said ‘monogamy’ was the best single answer to African AIDS, rather than ‘abstinence.’ The best and latest empirical evidence indeed shows that reduction in multiple and concurrent sexual partners is the most important single behavior change associated with reduction in HIV-infection rates (the other major factor is male circumcision).”

What about monogamous polygyny, one husband with two or more wives, with each wife being monogamous with the one husband, the the husband being polygynous only with his wives? That would seem to reduce infection rates, too.


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« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2009, 01:51:57 PM »

So the ends justify the means? We should be encouraging people to engage in that which is intrinsically evil (contraception) in order to avoid another evil (HIV)?

If one must prevent HIV, then abstinence makes sense.  Nevertheless, if one must have sex, why can't we promote the use of condoms to prevent HIV?  Don't you think it's waaaaaaaaaaaaay much better than having sex unprotected?  Do we really want to act like fundamentalists who wish disease upon the abominable fornicators and homosexuals?  Not only do you prevent disease, but unwanted abortion under Papal definition.

Contrast:

“I am often asked whether there will ever be a cure for H.I.V./AIDS, and my answer is that there is already a cure,” she says. “It lies in the strength of women, families and communities who support and empower each other to break the silence around AIDS and take control of their sexual lives.”

How about giving out condemns to adulterers?  After all, in those circumstances a disease or pregnancy would be a whole host of problems.

Quote
This is the Pope who is against the death penalty, right?  Just as one may take a position of love towards murderers so that they may not be killed under law, why not offer the same love to promiscuous people, in hopes that they may repent in good health some day?
Your analogy is off: if the pope, gave the murder more human ways of doing his craft (say, poison instead of a knife) your analogy would be more in line.

Isa, if I was a health care professional, I can't just give spiritual advise to anyone I see.  The patient will tell me, "Yes, doctor, I want to have sex."  In which I case, I will answer, "PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE use a condom.  You have a better chance protecting yourself from unwanted pregnancies and STDs than without protection."

I think this is a very sensible approach.  If I know they have a greater risk without protection, why should I not ask otherwise.

If on the other hand Isa, I was talking to you as a friend, as a brother in Orthodoxy (or anyone who is interested in my spiritual advise), then yes, I would plead to you with spiritual advise, i.e. abstinence.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 01:52:58 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #67 on: March 20, 2009, 02:40:40 PM »

Since the silence establishes that most everyone here does actually wear a seatbelt, it is time for my next question.  Suppose your kid said to you that they had decided they were going to be sexually active.  No matter how much you exhort him or her on how foolish that is for a variety of reasons, they are convinced in their position.  Do you wish for him / her to use a condom or not? 
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« Reply #68 on: March 20, 2009, 02:56:02 PM »

I actually know a man that lived in S. Africa and has founded a AIDS relief organization. ( http://www.agathosfoundation.org/ )  One of the problems with condoms and the AIDS crisis is the climate actually. Condoms are most effective when kept in their ideal environment. They need to stay relatively cool to maintain their effectiveness (hence why keeping one in your pocket all the time is stupid). The heat and various other conditions over there often render condoms ineffective long before they would be ineffective anywhere else. If latex becomes too warm the "pores" so to speak open up allowing nearly anything to get thru. Most people that have HIV or AIDS over there don't have a nice cool place to put their condoms. Additionally most of them would have to travel a long ways to "restock" since they don't have those nice vending machines that we in the US have in bar bathrooms Roll Eyes It is quite possible that the condoms don't really even work by the time people receive them. The expiration date on condoms in Africa is in effect worthless for knowing if they are indeed effective anymore. Condoms are the finger in the dike. The CULTURE over there is what is causing this mass AIDS crisis. There is a horrible thought that if you have sex with/rape a child/infant girl that one will be "cured" of HIV or AIDS.

http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/april/virgin.htm
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/444213
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/1362134/South-African-men-rape-babies-as-cure-for-Aids.html
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« Reply #69 on: March 20, 2009, 03:00:20 PM »

Voila-
The history of the condom
http://www.avert.org/condoms.htm
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« Reply #70 on: March 20, 2009, 03:25:02 PM »

over a decade of throwing condoms at Africans
They don't work if you just throw them at people. They actually have to put them on.



You still have to worry about body fluid. A condom won't protect your waste, thighs, and other places in that same area.


1.) Clean water

2.) Regular Soap, Anti-Bacterial Soap, & Anti-fungal Soap

3.) Bio-Hazard materials to discard used condoms in the area


And you can't forget that the most essential part in making a condom useful is HOW you take it off after sex. That is a technique that can't exactly be practiced on produce or plastic phalluses. So even with all of the above precautions it is still ineffective if you don't take it off correctly. All the studies on the effectiveness of condoms for preventing AIDS are based on CORRECT usage. But the reality is much different. For example with PERFECT use a couple using condoms will only become pregnant 2% of the time. But "typical use" actually results in pregnancy 15% of the time, now imagine how effective it is against something MUCH smaller than sperm- a virus.

http://www.guttmacher.org/in-the-know/prevention.html
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« Reply #71 on: March 20, 2009, 03:47:11 PM »

So the ends justify the means? We should be encouraging people to engage in that which is intrinsically evil (contraception) in order to avoid another evil (HIV)?

Who says that contraception is intrinsically evil? And why, for what reason?
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« Reply #72 on: March 20, 2009, 04:35:24 PM »

Since the silence establishes that most everyone here does actually wear a seatbelt, it is time for my next question.  Suppose your kid said to you that they had decided they were going to be sexually active.  No matter how much you exhort him or her on how foolish that is for a variety of reasons, they are convinced in their position.  Do you wish for him / her to use a condom or not? 

Of course not. What I have learned from this thread is that condoms raise HIV rates, so why would I?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #73 on: March 20, 2009, 07:28:37 PM »

So the ends justify the means? We should be encouraging people to engage in that which is intrinsically evil (contraception) in order to avoid another evil (HIV)?
Logical fallacy: circular reasoning.
Logical fallacy: claiming that something is circular reasoning when it is not.
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« Reply #74 on: March 20, 2009, 07:29:24 PM »

So the ends justify the means? We should be encouraging people to engage in that which is intrinsically evil (contraception) in order to avoid another evil (HIV)?

Who says that contraception is intrinsically evil? And why, for what reason?
Well the Church fathers for one... Also, the Eastern Orthodox Church did until recently.
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« Reply #75 on: March 20, 2009, 07:30:49 PM »

So the ends justify the means? We should be encouraging people to engage in that which is intrinsically evil (contraception) in order to avoid another evil (HIV)?

Your Pope says condoms are evil.
So do the Church fathers, as did Eastern Orthodoxy at one time.

ROFL!
You can't be serious! Which Church Fathers forbade condoms?
They condemned birth control in general.
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« Reply #76 on: March 20, 2009, 07:33:02 PM »

So the ends justify the means? We should be encouraging people to engage in that which is intrinsically evil (contraception) in order to avoid another evil (HIV)?

Your Pope says condoms are evil.
So do the Church fathers, as did Eastern Orthodoxy at one time.

ROFL!
You can't be serious! Which Church Fathers forbade condoms?
They condemned birth control in general.
Did they? Could you give us a quote or two?
What if the intention is not birth control but disease control? What if a married woman contracts HIV via a blood transfusion- should the couple never have sex again because condoms are intrinsicly evil?
BTW, Chastity is a form of birth control.
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« Reply #77 on: March 20, 2009, 07:39:18 PM »

Is coitus interruptus considered a sinful form of birth control? Or, what if your wife is unable to bring a child to term but can still conceive, but that conception endangers your wife's health.  If you are a practicing Roman Catholic, is it permissible to use birth control in that situation?
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« Reply #78 on: March 20, 2009, 07:40:46 PM »

I believe a Catholic would answer no to that one George.  If I'm not mistaken, Catholics have taken a stand that sex should be nothing but procreative.

Thus, the woman with HIV cannot and should not have sex anymore, even if married.  Am I right?

This is probably the underlying reason why HH Pope Benedict said what he said.
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« Reply #79 on: March 20, 2009, 07:45:20 PM »

I believe a Catholic would answer no to that one George.  If I'm not mistaken, Catholics have taken a stand that sex should be nothing but procreative.

Thus, the woman with HIV cannot and should not have sex anymore, even if married.  Am I right?

This is probably the underlying reason why HH Pope Benedict said what he said.

Could somebody (preferably a knowledgeable member of the Roman Catholic Church) please tell me that this isn't true.
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« Reply #80 on: March 20, 2009, 07:47:33 PM »

If you can't be "open to life" you are supposed to be celibate in marriage as a Catholic.
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« Reply #81 on: March 20, 2009, 07:53:01 PM »

Is coitus interruptus considered a sinful form of birth control? Or, what if your wife is unable to bring a child to term but can still conceive, but that conception endangers your wife's health.  If you are a practicing Roman Catholic, is it permissible to use birth control in that situation?

Allow me respond to myself Smiley

I just read that withdrawal is considered sinful, but the "rhythm method" is perfectly acceptable.  And where did people get this crazy notion that the Catholic Church is legalistic?  Tongue

But really, the primary purpose of sex is procreation? I didn't realize the RCC considered humans to be so much like animals.
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« Reply #82 on: March 20, 2009, 07:53:16 PM »

If you can't be "open to life" you are supposed to be celibate in marriage as a Catholic.
Does this include the case where the primary aim is to prevent infection of the woman's partner (and baby)? Are you seriously telling me that the Catholic Church says that HIV infected married persons must remain celibate?
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« Reply #83 on: March 20, 2009, 07:55:12 PM »

If it isn't open to life it isn't OK.
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« Reply #84 on: March 20, 2009, 07:59:29 PM »

If it isn't open to life it isn't OK.
If that's true, then I guess there is no point discussing the issue with them.
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« Reply #85 on: March 20, 2009, 08:03:04 PM »

If it isn't open to life it isn't OK.
If that's true, then I guess there is no point discussing the issue with them.


That is one thing (amongst quite a few others) that made us decide against Catholocism. In general Orthodoxy is not for birth control. But there seems to be allowances for the fact that for many it can be a need to limit/avoid children..
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« Reply #86 on: March 20, 2009, 08:18:04 PM »

If you can't be "open to life" you are supposed to be celibate in marriage as a Catholic.
Does this include the case where the primary aim is to prevent infection of the woman's partner (and baby)? Are you seriously telling me that the Catholic Church says that HIV infected married persons must remain celibate?
Yup. Its not like sex is a be all end all in life.
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« Reply #87 on: March 20, 2009, 08:22:01 PM »

Its not like sex is a be all end all in life.

Compassion is.
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« Reply #88 on: March 20, 2009, 08:23:25 PM »

So the ends justify the means? We should be encouraging people to engage in that which is intrinsically evil (contraception) in order to avoid another evil (HIV)?

Your Pope says condoms are evil.
So do the Church fathers, as did Eastern Orthodoxy at one time.

ROFL!
You can't be serious! Which Church Fathers forbade condoms?
They condemned birth control in general.
Did they? Could you give us a quote or two?
"The use of contraceptives and other devices for birth control is on the whole strongly discouraged in the Orthodox Church. Some bishops and theologians altogether condemn the employment of such methods. Others, however, have recently begun to adopt a less strict position, and urge that the question is best left to the discretion of each individual couple, in consultation with the spiritual father." - Met. Ware, The Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #89 on: March 20, 2009, 08:46:03 PM »

Quote
"The use of contraceptives and other devices for birth control is on the whole strongly discouraged in the Orthodox Church. Some bishops and theologians altogether condemn the employment of such methods. Others, however, have recently begun to adopt a less strict position,  and urge that the question is best left to the discretion of each individual couple, in consultation with the spiritual father." - Met. Ware, The Orthodox Church.

The Catholic church seems to ONLY care about the procreative aspect of sex and forget completely about the unitive nature. They see it as both/and rather than seeing them as the separate issues altogether which they are. Sex or lack thereof is an issue that can and often does make or break a marriage. And we are not to withold from each other unless we are in agreement. This will often lead to many catholic men becoming porn and masturbation issues because they can't have sex with their wife due to health issues.

The worst case of this thought process I saw was when a woman that wanted to wed a man with a vasectomy was told she can't because it would never be a marriage "open to life." And I saw a case where a man was told he couldn't wed a woman that had a tubal ligation as well. They would have been second marriages but these people had the procedures before they converted. To declare that a marriage is invalid simply because there is no chance of "creating life" is horrendous to my mind.
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