Author Topic: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa  (Read 12409 times)

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Offline Justin Kissel

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Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« on: March 17, 2009, 10:46:48 AM »
Pope Benedict XVI said Tuesday that the distribution of condoms is not the answer in the fight against AIDS in Africa.

Benedict has never before spoken explicitly on condom use although he has stressed that the Roman Catholic Church is in the forefront of the battle against AIDS. The Vatican encourages sexual abstinence to fight the spread of the disease.

"You can't resolve it with the distribution of condoms," the pope told reporters aboard the Alitalia plane headed to Yaounde, Cameroon. "On the contrary, it increases the problem."...

To read the rest of the story go to: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 10:47:10 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2009, 11:17:49 AM »
Pope Benedict XVI said Tuesday that the distribution of condoms is not the answer in the fight against AIDS in Africa.

Benedict has never before spoken explicitly on condom use although he has stressed that the Roman Catholic Church is in the forefront of the battle against AIDS. The Vatican encourages sexual abstinence to fight the spread of the disease.

"You can't resolve it with the distribution of condoms," the pope told reporters aboard the Alitalia plane headed to Yaounde, Cameroon. "On the contrary, it increases the problem."...

To read the rest of the story go to: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa

Wow... and seat belts have been known to increase car crash fatalities?
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2009, 11:35:29 AM »
Pope Benedict XVI said Tuesday that the distribution of condoms is not the answer in the fight against AIDS in Africa.

Benedict has never before spoken explicitly on condom use although he has stressed that the Roman Catholic Church is in the forefront of the battle against AIDS. The Vatican encourages sexual abstinence to fight the spread of the disease.

"You can't resolve it with the distribution of condoms," the pope told reporters aboard the Alitalia plane headed to Yaounde, Cameroon. "On the contrary, it increases the problem."...

To read the rest of the story go to: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa

Wow... and seat belts have been known to increase car crash fatalities? 

The only way to combat claims is with facts; if you've got numbers that show that condom use decreases AIDS more than it encourages unsafe sex, then you'll win.  You can't just go to "common sense," because then you'll never win the other person over to your position (and if you believe strongly enough that condoms should be distributed in Africa to stem the tide of AIDS deaths, then you should indeed be committed to making that point to your detractors, for the sake of those at risk).  If he's got hard evidence that shows that condom use increases sexual promiscuity so much that the AIDS rate does actually increase, then he'll have made his point.

If he has numbers that show that seatbelt use increases unsafe driving and, in turn, fatalities, then he'll win.
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Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2009, 11:43:57 AM »
Condoms, when used properly, are over 99% effective in preventing AIDS. There is no grand argument here- if a condom is used correctly, (i.e. if the Africans are properly educated in their use as well as the risks of HIV), then AIDS will decrease. There are two immediate responses to the condom question: 1.) provide them, along with better education on their proper use, or 2.) don't, and continue teaching abstinence in the hopes that not having sex will catch on.  I'm putting my money on option number one being the most likely path for decreasing AIDS in the long run.

edit: And since the article cited provides zero evidence other than the pope's personal opinion, should I assume his ideas are backed up by facts?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 11:52:04 AM by Bogoliubtsy »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2009, 12:33:44 PM »
Pope Benedict XVI said Tuesday that the distribution of condoms is not the answer in the fight against AIDS in Africa.

Benedict has never before spoken explicitly on condom use although he has stressed that the Roman Catholic Church is in the forefront of the battle against AIDS. The Vatican encourages sexual abstinence to fight the spread of the disease.

"You can't resolve it with the distribution of condoms," the pope told reporters aboard the Alitalia plane headed to Yaounde, Cameroon. "On the contrary, it increases the problem."...

To read the rest of the story go to: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa

Wow... and seat belts have been known to increase car crash fatalities?
Actually, yes.

Studies have found that people do not place them properly, causing internal bleeding.

An analogy: there was the whole argument about infants having to have their own seats on planes a few years back, the argument that not having them fastened caused fatalities in plane crashes.  Problem is is that plane crashes are far, far less than auto accidents.  Since most parents couldn't/wouldn't pay for the seat on the plane, and ended up driving, infant risk went up.

Condoms, when
IF
Quote
edit: And since the article cited provides zero evidence other than the pope's personal opinion, should I assume his ideas are backed up by facts?
There's your fact.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 12:35:27 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2009, 12:49:21 PM »
Condoms, when used properly, are over 99% effective in preventing AIDS. There is no grand argument here- if a condom is used correctly, (i.e. if the Africans are properly educated in their use as well as the risks of HIV), then AIDS will decrease. There are two immediate responses to the condom question: 1.) provide them, along with better education on their proper use, or 2.) don't, and continue teaching abstinence in the hopes that not having sex will catch on.  I'm putting my money on option number one being the most likely path for decreasing AIDS in the long run.

Yes, this is the argument that we've heard over and over again; when you're debating someone who doubts the efficacy of using condoms in the fight against AIDS, you've got to come with more than that.

edit: And since the article cited provides zero evidence other than the pope's personal opinion, should I assume his ideas are backed up by facts?

Don't assume it - in fact, assume the opposite, that they are specifically not backed up by research.  That's why your only approach must be one founded upon studied observation, upon research.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2009, 01:17:31 PM »
Condoms, when used properly, are over 99% effective in preventing AIDS. There is no grand argument here- if a condom is used correctly, (i.e. if the Africans are properly educated in their use as well as the risks of HIV), then AIDS will decrease. There are two immediate responses to the condom question: 1.) provide them, along with better education on their proper use, or 2.) don't, and continue teaching abstinence in the hopes that not having sex will catch on.  I'm putting my money on option number one being the most likely path for decreasing AIDS in the long run.

Yes, this is the argument that we've heard over and over again; when you're debating someone who doubts the efficacy of using condoms in the fight against AIDS, you've got to come with more than that.

edit: And since the article cited provides zero evidence other than the pope's personal opinion, should I assume his ideas are backed up by facts?

Don't assume it - in fact, assume the opposite, that they are specifically not backed up by research.  That's why your only approach must be one founded upon studied observation

Studied observation, eh?  Sure there's enough volunteers to watch. :o
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2009, 06:04:18 PM »
edit: And since the article cited provides zero evidence other than the pope's personal opinion, should I assume his ideas are backed up by facts?

The Pope is infallible, so obviously you are wrong. 

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2009, 06:28:20 PM »

I guess the Pope's statement is being misinterpreted. He is trying to say that "some people" are introducing condom use as an alternative to the method used by the Roman Church (abstinence from promiscuous affairs) in the prevention of sexual diseases. He actually says that this method (condom use) cannot be the only or alternative solution because it causes more (theological) problems. This debate eventually gets similar to the one about abortion. Practical solutions are considered no solutions by the Pope if they are theologically and/or ethically defective.
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2009, 06:35:14 PM »
Condoms, when used properly, are over 99% effective in preventing AIDS. There is no grand argument here- if a condom is used correctly, (i.e. if the Africans are properly educated in their use as well as the risks of HIV), then AIDS will decrease. There are two immediate responses to the condom question: 1.) provide them, along with better education on their proper use, or 2.) don't, and continue teaching abstinence in the hopes that not having sex will catch on.  I'm putting my money on option number one being the most likely path for decreasing AIDS in the long run.

edit: And since the article cited provides zero evidence other than the pope's personal opinion, should I assume his ideas are backed up by facts?

The last I checked they were 70 something %. If you don't wash yourself immdetaitely afterwards, you can still get an STD. so that 99% claim is false.

The same is true when you put on plastic gloves to take care of someone that may have something. If you don't wash your hands afterwards then you can still be contaminated. Nurses are tought how to take plastic gloves off safely, but they still have to wash their hands.......the same is true with Condom use.......you have to wash up afterwards.

But if you don't have a place to wash up (right after using the condom) then your chances of getting something are higher.



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« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 06:37:07 PM by jnorm888 »
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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2009, 06:43:00 PM »

I guess the Pope's statement is being misinterpreted. He is trying to say that "some people" are introducing condom use as an alternative to the method used by the Roman Church (abstinence from promiscuous affairs) in the prevention of sexual diseases. He actually says that this method (condom use) cannot be the only or alternative solution because it causes more (theological) problems. This debate eventually gets similar to the one about abortion. Practical solutions are considered no solutions by the Pope if they are theologically and/or ethically defective.

Alot of people that are for condom use feel that sex is natural(because they feel that we are nothing more than mere animals) therefore we shouldn't care if people have sex because they are going to do it anyway. To them, if you have an internal desire/impulse then they feel that you are being fake if you try to resist it.

They feel that our true selves are our impulses/desires. If we give in to them, then we are being what godless/senseless/purposelessness evolution made us to be. If we resist them, then we are being fake, and not true to ourselves.......thus we are in the way of "progress", and we are the cause of all the worlds problems.







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« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 06:45:32 PM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2009, 06:48:12 PM »
I'm really struggling to see what the "debate" is all about here. Whether condoms are 99% or 70% or 57% effective, I'm fairly certain they work better at preventing HIV than using no protection at all.

Of course, abstinence is 100% effective, but until the Africans are properly infused with the spirit of the Holy Roman Catholic Church and the teachings of the infallible vicar of Christ on Earth, I'd say CONDOMS will do a better job at preventing AIDS then telling people to stop having sex. I'd also say that the odds of teaching Africans how to properly use condoms are much better than converting them all to Christianity and having them adopt the Church's moral code. So, until they're all made chaste Christians,  let's opt for educating them and helping to save them from disease and death, even if it rubs the pope the wrong way.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 06:50:39 PM by Bogoliubtsy »
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2009, 07:36:20 PM »
I'm really struggling to see what the "debate" is all about here. Whether condoms are 99% or 70% or 57% effective, I'm fairly certain they work better at preventing HIV than using no protection at all.

Of course, abstinence is 100% effective, but until the Africans are properly infused with the spirit of the Holy Roman Catholic Church and the teachings of the infallible vicar of Christ on Earth, I'd say CONDOMS will do a better job at preventing AIDS then telling people to stop having sex. I'd also say that the odds of teaching Africans how to properly use condoms are much better than converting them all to Christianity and having them adopt the Church's moral code. So, until they're all made chaste Christians,  let's opt for educating them and helping to save them from disease and death, even if it rubs the pope the wrong way.


If you don't wash up quickly after using the condom, then giving them condoms can make it worse. If you want to do something then it should be both.....both.








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"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2009, 10:28:24 PM »
I'm really struggling to see what the "debate" is all about here. Whether condoms are 99% or 70% or 57% effective, I'm fairly certain they work better at preventing HIV than using no protection at all.

Of course, abstinence is 100% effective, but until the Africans are properly infused with the spirit of the Holy Roman Catholic Church and the teachings of the infallible vicar of Christ on Earth, I'd say CONDOMS will do a better job at preventing AIDS then telling people to stop having sex. I'd also say that the odds of teaching Africans how to properly use condoms are much better than converting them all to Christianity and having them adopt the Church's moral code. So, until they're all made chaste Christians,  let's opt for educating them and helping to save them from disease and death, even if it rubs the pope the wrong way.

Actually no.  Abstinence programs have actually been more effective in redcuing the rate of HIV in Africa.  Of course the media ignores this and AIDS activists are committed to condoms because how dare anyone actually tell anybody not to have sex. 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=12226
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_2_19/ai_96238192
http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/global_health/aids/News/abcfactsheet.html
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2009, 10:49:03 PM »
I'm really struggling to see what the "debate" is all about here.
No you're not.  You have an agenda which you pursue through all your posts and threads.
Quote
Whether condoms are 99% or 70% or 57% effective, I'm fairly certain they work better at preventing HIV than using no protection at all.

Then post the link to your findings.

Quote
Of course, abstinence is 100% effective, but until the Africans are properly infused with the spirit of the Holy Roman Catholic Church and the teachings of the infallible vicar of Christ on Earth, I'd say CONDOMS will do a better job at preventing AIDS then telling people to stop having sex.

Female circumcision helps too.  Why don't we promote that too?

Quote
I'd also say that the odds of teaching Africans how to properly use condoms are much better than converting them all to Christianity and having them adopt the Church's moral code.
Really?   Why don't we provide sterile female circumcision too, since we shouldn't convert them all to Christianity and impose our morality on them.  Since they are going to do it anyway, why not make it safe?

Quote
So, until they're all made chaste Christians,  let's opt for educating them and helping to save them from disease and death, even if it rubs the pope the wrong way.

I'll stick with the facts, even if it rubs the media the wrong way.
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Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2009, 10:52:58 PM »
I'm really struggling to see what the "debate" is all about here. Whether condoms are 99% or 70% or 57% effective, I'm fairly certain they work better at preventing HIV than using no protection at all.

Of course, abstinence is 100% effective, but until the Africans are properly infused with the spirit of the Holy Roman Catholic Church and the teachings of the infallible vicar of Christ on Earth, I'd say CONDOMS will do a better job at preventing AIDS then telling people to stop having sex. I'd also say that the odds of teaching Africans how to properly use condoms are much better than converting them all to Christianity and having them adopt the Church's moral code. So, until they're all made chaste Christians,  let's opt for educating them and helping to save them from disease and death, even if it rubs the pope the wrong way.

Actually no.  Abstinence programs have actually been more effective in redcuing the rate of HIV in Africa.  Of course the media ignores this and AIDS activists are committed to condoms because how dare anyone actually tell anybody not to have sex. 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=12226
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_2_19/ai_96238192
http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/global_health/aids/News/abcfactsheet.html

Your sources deal primarily with Uganda. They also call for a combination of fidelity to one partner, abstinence AND the use of condoms in preventing HIV. The Pope, on the other hand, wants to rule out condoms entirely- something that would reduce those three legs of prevention to two.

According to this (more reliable) study it seems circumcision and fidelity to one partner (married or not makes no difference) trump both abstinence and condoms. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/42242.php
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2009, 11:20:20 PM »
I'm really struggling to see what the "debate" is all about here. Whether condoms are 99% or 70% or 57% effective, I'm fairly certain they work better at preventing HIV than using no protection at all.

Of course, abstinence is 100% effective, but until the Africans are properly infused with the spirit of the Holy Roman Catholic Church and the teachings of the infallible vicar of Christ on Earth, I'd say CONDOMS will do a better job at preventing AIDS then telling people to stop having sex. I'd also say that the odds of teaching Africans how to properly use condoms are much better than converting them all to Christianity and having them adopt the Church's moral code. So, until they're all made chaste Christians,  let's opt for educating them and helping to save them from disease and death, even if it rubs the pope the wrong way.

Actually no.  Abstinence programs have actually been more effective in redcuing the rate of HIV in Africa.  Of course the media ignores this and AIDS activists are committed to condoms because how dare anyone actually tell anybody not to have sex. 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=12226
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_2_19/ai_96238192
http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/global_health/aids/News/abcfactsheet.html

Your sources deal primarily with Uganda. They also call for a combination of fidelity to one partner, abstinence AND the use of condoms in preventing HIV. The Pope, on the other hand, wants to rule out condoms entirely- something that would reduce those three legs of prevention to two.

According to this (more reliable) study it seems circumcision and fidelity to one partner (married or not makes no difference) trump both abstinence and condoms. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/42242.php
Your agenda, and not your source, provided that.

Your source also has something interesting:

Quote
"[C]ontrary to popular wisdom, as income levels go up in both men and women, we see higher rates of HIV
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2009, 03:01:24 PM »
I'm really struggling to see what the "debate" is all about here. Whether condoms are 99% or 70% or 57% effective, I'm fairly certain they work better at preventing HIV than using no protection at all.

Of course, abstinence is 100% effective, but until the Africans are properly infused with the spirit of the Holy Roman Catholic Church and the teachings of the infallible vicar of Christ on Earth, I'd say CONDOMS will do a better job at preventing AIDS then telling people to stop having sex. I'd also say that the odds of teaching Africans how to properly use condoms are much better than converting them all to Christianity and having them adopt the Church's moral code. So, until they're all made chaste Christians,  let's opt for educating them and helping to save them from disease and death, even if it rubs the pope the wrong way.

Actually no.  Abstinence programs have actually been more effective in redcuing the rate of HIV in Africa.  Of course the media ignores this and AIDS activists are committed to condoms because how dare anyone actually tell anybody not to have sex. 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=12226
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_2_19/ai_96238192
http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/global_health/aids/News/abcfactsheet.html

Your sources deal primarily with Uganda. They also call for a combination of fidelity to one partner, abstinence AND the use of condoms in preventing HIV. The Pope, on the other hand, wants to rule out condoms entirely- something that would reduce those three legs of prevention to two.

According to this (more reliable) study it seems circumcision and fidelity to one partner (married or not makes no difference) trump both abstinence and condoms. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/42242.php

If you are going to give them condoms then you will also have to give them:

1.) Clean water

2.) regular soap, anti-bacterial soap, & anti-fungal soap

3.) Bio-hazard materials to get rid of the used condoms.


If not then you are only gonna make the problem worse.






JNORM888
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 03:02:05 PM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline Heorhij

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2009, 06:27:20 PM »
I think the statement is plain stupid and is not worth discussing. (Sorry, Your Holiness...)
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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2009, 06:29:50 PM »
I think the statement is plain stupid and is not worth discussing. (Sorry, Your Holiness...)
But he's an infallible expert in epidemiology.
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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2009, 06:52:36 PM »
One need look no further than the US were condoms are readily available, free often times, and yet rates of STDs have steadily risen.  You want to be safe don't have sex.  Sex, even with condoms, is a risk.

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2009, 06:53:58 PM »
One need look no further than the US were condoms are readily available, free often times, and yet rates of STDs have steadily risen.  You want to be safe don't have sex.  Sex, even with condoms, is a risk.

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How does the rate of HIV infection in the US compare with Africa?
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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2009, 06:59:08 PM »
One need look no further than the US were condoms are readily available, free often times, and yet rates of STDs have steadily risen.  You want to be safe don't have sex.  Sex, even with condoms, is a risk.

Fr. Deacon Lance
How does the rate of HIV infection in the US compare with Africa?


News flash.
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2009, 07:07:09 PM »
One need look no further than the US were condoms are readily available, free often times, and yet rates of STDs have steadily risen.  You want to be safe don't have sex.  Sex, even with condoms, is a risk.

Fr. Deacon Lance
How does the rate of HIV infection in the US compare with Africa?


News flash.

Thanks Jetevan! That article has some great advice. It says:

Quote
What To Do?

Plain and simple:  get tested and use condoms.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2009, 07:31:38 PM »
Plainer and simpler and more effective: Don't have sex.  And you'll avoid sinning too.
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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2009, 07:33:27 PM »
Plainer and simpler and more effective: Don't have sex. 
Excellent advice which I hope that all Roman Catholics follow, and if they do happen to fall into fornication, I hope they do not use condoms.
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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2009, 07:59:22 PM »
George, I think you are forgetting that AIDS is a gift from God to the true believers and a scourge upon homosexuals.  Therefore using condoms is going against the will of GOD.  It's in the Bible.  Clearly it's why Metr. Jonah has been enthroned.   
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 08:05:09 PM by Νεκτάριος »

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2009, 08:08:06 PM »
George, I think you are forgetting that AIDS is a gift from God to the true believers and a scourge upon homosexuals.  Therefore using condoms is going against the will of GOD.  It's in the Bible.
You're right, which is why I advocate that all true believing Roman Catholics should remain celibate, and if they do fall into fornication, they absolutely must NOT use condoms. All Catholic Parents must advise their children at once to abstain from sex for the rest of their lives, but knowing human weakness, they must compassionately also advise them NEVER to use condoms if they happen to fall into the temptation of fornication. Only by NOT wearing condoms can they be assured of safety.
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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2009, 08:30:37 PM »
George, I think you are forgetting that AIDS is a gift from God to the true believers and a scourge upon homosexuals.  Therefore using condoms is going against the will of GOD.  It's in the Bible.
You're right, which is why I advocate that all true believing Roman Catholics should remain celibate, and if they do fall into fornication, they absolutely must NOT use condoms. All Catholic Parents must advise their children at once to abstain from sex for the rest of their lives, but knowing human weakness, they must compassionately also advise them NEVER to use condoms if they happen to fall into the temptation of fornication. Only by NOT wearing condoms can they be assured of safety.

How blessed we are to have a prophet in our midst in these end times of delusion!

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2009, 10:06:55 PM »
You guys are confusing issues.  It is one thing to hope that if someone falls into sin they take precaution.  It is another to have an AIDS epidemic and act as if condoms are the solution when statistics show they are not.
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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2009, 10:12:47 PM »
You guys are confusing issues.  It is one thing to hope that if someone falls into sin they take precaution.  It is another to have an AIDS epidemic and act as if condoms are the solution when statistics show they are not.
Evidence?
I believe in unicorns too.
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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2009, 10:19:07 PM »
Oh I don't know, perhaps the fact that after over a decade of throwing condoms at Africans the only place with a reduction in AIDS is the place where abstinence was taken seriously.
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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2009, 10:20:37 PM »
over a decade of throwing condoms at Africans
They don't work if you just throw them at people. They actually have to put them on.
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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2009, 10:36:43 PM »
I'm really struggling to see what the "debate" is all about here.
No you're not.  You have an agenda which you pursue through all your posts and threads.
Quote
Whether condoms are 99% or 70% or 57% effective, I'm fairly certain they work better at preventing HIV than using no protection at all.

Then post the link to your findings.

 


I'll just respond to this piece since the rest of your post is rubbish.  I want to be clear before I reply though. Are you actually asking me to provide evidence that using condoms is more effective in preventing HIV than NOT using condoms during sex?
"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2009, 12:00:28 AM »
I'm really struggling to see what the "debate" is all about here.
No you're not.  You have an agenda which you pursue through all your posts and threads.
Quote
Whether condoms are 99% or 70% or 57% effective, I'm fairly certain they work better at preventing HIV than using no protection at all.

Then post the link to your findings.

 



I'll just respond to this piece since the rest of your post is rubbish.
I'll have to defer to your expertise on that.
Quote
  I want to be clear before I reply though. Are you actually asking me to provide evidence that using condoms is more effective in preventing HIV than NOT using condoms during sex?

That's been posted several times. And the hyposteses why that is so too.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2009, 12:02:46 AM »
over a decade of throwing condoms at Africans
They don't work if you just throw them at people. They actually have to put them on.

LOL. I remember talking to someone who did this type of work in Africa (this was before the big AIDS scare: back then it was just family planning).  They demonstrated by putting them on their thumb.  They couldn't figure out why the birth rate hadn't changed, in fact went up.  They then found out that the men were wearing them on their thumbs during sex.
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Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2009, 12:11:56 AM »
I'm really struggling to see what the "debate" is all about here.
No you're not.  You have an agenda which you pursue through all your posts and threads.
Quote
Whether condoms are 99% or 70% or 57% effective, I'm fairly certain they work better at preventing HIV than using no protection at all.

Then post the link to your findings.

 



I'll just respond to this piece since the rest of your post is rubbish.
I'll have to defer to your expertise on that.
Quote
  I want to be clear before I reply though. Are you actually asking me to provide evidence that using condoms is more effective in preventing HIV than NOT using condoms during sex?

That's been posted several times. And the hyposteses why that is so too.

http://www.cdc.gov/HIV/resources/qa/condom.htm
"Latex condoms, when used consistently and correctly, are highly effective in preventing heterosexual sexual transmission of HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. Research on the effectiveness of latex condoms in preventing heterosexual transmission is both comprehensive and conclusive."

Next I'll be asked to provide "proof" that eating food helps keep you alive.
"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2009, 01:26:05 AM »
I'm really struggling to see what the "debate" is all about here.
No you're not.  You have an agenda which you pursue through all your posts and threads.
Quote
Whether condoms are 99% or 70% or 57% effective, I'm fairly certain they work better at preventing HIV than using no protection at all.

Then post the link to your findings.

 



I'll just respond to this piece since the rest of your post is rubbish.
I'll have to defer to your expertise on that.
Quote
  I want to be clear before I reply though. Are you actually asking me to provide evidence that using condoms is more effective in preventing HIV than NOT using condoms during sex?

That's been posted several times. And the hyposteses why that is so too.

http://www.cdc.gov/HIV/resources/qa/condom.htm
"Latex condoms, when used consistently and correctly, are highly effective in preventing heterosexual sexual transmission of HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. Research on the effectiveness of latex condoms in preventing heterosexual transmission is both comprehensive and conclusive."

You are the one who posted the link to this:
Quote
However, condom use in South Africa and Botswana has had little effect in reducing those countries' HIV epidemics -- which have reached the general population -- because regular sex partners rarely use condoms consistently.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20243.msg301955.html#msg301955
According to this (more reliable) study

Quote
Next I'll be asked to provide "proof" that eating food helps keep you alive.

google "obesity"
« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 01:34:46 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline Elisha

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2009, 01:55:33 AM »

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2009, 04:06:07 AM »
Wow... and seat belts have been known to increase car crash fatalities?

Actually, during an Economy class, the teacher told us that after the introduction of safety belts, the fatalities among the pedestrians have increased. Her explanation was the the drivers became more confident and drove at higher speeds, reducing the chance of braking in time before they hit pedestrians.
Asemănându-te obiceiurilor râvnitorului Ilie şi urmând Botezătorului pe drepte cărări, Părinte Antonie, te-ai făcut locuitor pustiului şi ai întărit lumea cu rugăciunile tale. Pentru aceasta, roagă-te lui Hristos Dumnezeu, să mântuiască sufletele noastre.

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2009, 04:27:04 AM »
Just to clarify, does anyone here intentionally never wear their seatbelts? 

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2009, 07:03:40 AM »
I thought this was interesting:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/books/review/Donnelly-t.html?_r=1


Yes.
Quote
After five years in Washington covering the politics of AIDS and three years in Africa writing about the lives of those infected and affected, in truth, I have little patience for books on AIDS in Africa. With few exceptions, they tend to be too self-important, too polemical, too grim or too at odds with my experiences in the field. Epstein, in contrast, teaches me things I didn’t know. Her rigorous reporting unearths new findings among old, worn-out issues. And the evidence she puts forward could provide a roadmap for comprehensive prevention programs that incorporate teaching abstinence, using condoms and, most critically, emphasizing fidelity. Indeed, Epstein’s animated consideration of debates on fidelity leaves me to wonder, and not for the first time, about the virtual silence on this issue by most African leaders. (Then again, a ruler like King Mswati III of Swaziland, who has something like 13 wives and whose country has an adult H.I.V. rate of greater than 30 percent, is not about to speak up.)

This isn’t a blanket criticism, as Epstein would not count herself among those blind to the real problems of a varied continent; nor would she say that about several of her foreign researcher heroes quoted in the book. But in Uganda, she found a powerful example of Africans taking the lead in the fight. When scientists first reported the decline in Uganda’s H.I.V. prevalence in 1995, Epstein says, she and others assumed it was because so many Ugandans had died from AIDS, not because they were sleeping around less. What had actually taken place, she writes, was a “very African” prevention approach.

It was led by President Yoweri Museveni’s call for “zero grazing” — meaning couples should stay faithful to each another. This call inspired Ugandans to talk about AIDS more openly, which in turn erased the stigma of the disease to some degree, empowered women to divorce unfaithful husbands and cast shame on those who continued to have affairs. Hence Epstein’s title and theme — “the invisible cure.” Beatrice Were, a brave H.I.V.-positive activist in Uganda, articulates it best: “I am often asked whether there will ever be a cure for H.I.V./AIDS, and my answer is that there is already a cure,” she says. “It lies in the strength of women, families and communities who support and empower each other to break the silence around AIDS and take control of their sexual lives.”


Take control of their sexual lives.  Who would have thought? ::) I mean, they are going to do it anyways.

Quote
To track down Maxine Ankrah, the woman who studied Ugandan sexual habits, Epstein traveled to a hilltop in Mukono, Uganda, a small town 30 miles outside Kampala. The two had dinner together. One can imagine the power of the conversation, as Epstein told Ankrah about the fate of her long-lost work. Ankrah had believed her research would be forever forgotten, especially when the United Nations researcher failed to cite her study even in his footnotes. “It was as though I had been written out of history,” Ankrah said. To her credit, Epstein has written her back in. It’s time the world takes note of Ankrah’s research and Epstein’s apt reporting, and shifts the prevention message to spare millions from H.I.V. infection and an early death.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2009, 08:25:05 AM »
Just to clarify, does anyone here intentionally never wear their seatbelts?  

The people that I know don't wear them, and do so intentionally, are either in their 70's and resentful that the "government is telling me what to do," or are in their teens/20's and just don't like 'em.  Either way, I find their arguments ridiculous ("the government tells you to not eat poison; want some arsenic to fight "the man?"").
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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2009, 12:40:55 PM »
So the ends justify the means? We should be encouraging people to engage in that which is intrinsically evil (contraception) in order to avoid another evil (HIV)?
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Re: Pope: Condoms 'Increase' AIDS Epidemic in Africa
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2009, 01:21:21 PM »
So the ends justify the means? We should be encouraging people to engage in that which is intrinsically evil (contraception) in order to avoid another evil (HIV)?
Logical fallacy: circular reasoning.
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