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Offline Byzantine2008

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Genesis Reading need explaination??
« on: March 15, 2009, 06:34:16 PM »
The following reading from Genesis has me a little confused?

Hasn't Adam already eaten from the Tree of life?

What does God mean to live for ever? Would not have Adam lived for ever before the fall?


22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

In Christ.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2009, 06:40:01 PM »
Hasn't Adam already eaten from the Tree of life?
Uhm, no.  Where do you get the idea that he has?
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2009, 06:58:35 PM »
Another question with this passage is, if Adam/Eve only knew good and evil after eating of the tree, then how could God expect them to know it was wrong to eat of the tree before they had eaten from it?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2009, 06:59:02 PM »
The following reading from Genesis has me a little confused?

Hasn't Adam already eaten from the Tree of life?

What does God mean to live for ever? Would not have Adam lived for ever before the fall?


22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

In Christ.

If he hadn't already eaten, think of the implications: here Adam could have eaten form the Tree of Life, which was not forbidden, but instead he eats from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (not the Tree of Knowledge, btw: one of our number, Frank Zappa, got all tripped out over that), which was forbidden.  What was he thinking?

Another question with this passage is, if Adam/Eve only knew good and evil after eating of the tree, then how could God expect them to know it was wrong to eat of the tree before they had eaten from it?
Knew in the Biblical sense.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 07:00:56 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2009, 07:02:31 PM »
Another question with this passage is, if Adam/Eve only knew good and evil after eating of the tree, then how could God expect them to know it was wrong to eat of the tree before they had eaten from it?
Because God commanded them not to eat of the tree and warned them beforehand of what would happen if they did.
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Offline Byzantine2008

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2009, 07:05:03 PM »
The following reading from Genesis has me a little confused?

Hasn't Adam already eaten from the Tree of life?

What does God mean to live for ever? Would not have Adam lived for ever before the fall?


22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

In Christ.

If he hadn't already eaten, think of the implications: here Adam could have eaten form the Tree of Life, which was not forbidden, but instead he eats from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (not the Tree of Knowledge, btw: one of our number, Frank Zappa, got all tripped out over that), which was forbidden.  What was he thinking?

Another question with this passage is, if Adam/Eve only knew good and evil after eating of the tree, then how could God expect them to know it was wrong to eat of the tree before they had eaten from it?
Knew in the Biblical sense.

Ah yes, I got myself confused with the tree of knowledge.. :)

"22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

Was the Tree of life also in Eden?

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Offline Byzantine2008

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2009, 07:11:10 PM »
The following reading from Genesis has me a little confused?

Hasn't Adam already eaten from the Tree of life?

What does God mean to live for ever? Would not have Adam lived for ever before the fall?


22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

In Christ.

If he hadn't already eaten, think of the implications: here Adam could have eaten form the Tree of Life, which was not forbidden, but instead he eats from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (not the Tree of Knowledge, btw: one of our number, Frank Zappa, got all tripped out over that), which was forbidden.  What was he thinking?

Another question with this passage is, if Adam/Eve only knew good and evil after eating of the tree, then how could God expect them to know it was wrong to eat of the tree before they had eaten from it?
Knew in the Biblical sense.

Ah yes, I got myself confused with the tree of knowledge.. :)

"22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

Was the Tree of life also in Eden?



Please ignore my stupid question...  ;D

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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2009, 07:40:40 PM »
Quote
Knew in the Biblical sense.

Could you clarify what you mean, I don't quite follow?

Quote
Because God commanded them not to eat of the tree and warned them beforehand of what would happen if they did.

But they didn't know what good and evil was, yet they were expected to know that disobeying God was wrong...? Doesn't make sense to me.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2009, 07:51:44 PM »
The following reading from Genesis has me a little confused?

Hasn't Adam already eaten from the Tree of life?

What does God mean to live for ever? Would not have Adam lived for ever before the fall?


22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

In Christ.

If he hadn't already eaten, think of the implications: here Adam could have eaten form the Tree of Life, which was not forbidden, but instead he eats from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (not the Tree of Knowledge, btw: one of our number, Frank Zappa, got all tripped out over that), which was forbidden.  What was he thinking?

Another question with this passage is, if Adam/Eve only knew good and evil after eating of the tree, then how could God expect them to know it was wrong to eat of the tree before they had eaten from it? 
Knew in the Biblical sense.

Ah yes, I got myself confused with the tree of knowledge.. :)

"22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

Was the Tree of life also in Eden?

Please ignore my stupid question...  ;D

Not that stupid a question.  Fear not.  Not only was the Tree of Life in the garden, it was in the center of the garden, with the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (TOKGE) off to a side.  What's interesting is that, even though the Tree of Life is placed as the focus and central point of the garden, the TOKGE was the center of Adam & Eve's obsession and focus... The beginning of mankind's fascination with things that lead to sin.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2009, 07:53:33 PM »
Quote
Knew in the Biblical sense.

Could you clarify what you mean, I don't quite follow?

"Adam knew his wife, and she conceived..."

Quote
Because God commanded them not to eat of the tree and warned them beforehand of what would happen if they did.

Quote
But they didn't know what good and evil was, yet they were expected to know that disobeying God was wrong...? Doesn't make sense to me.
I remember telling the daughter of a friend of mine, "don't touch the stove, it's hot."  We all went into the living room and heard a screech: she's had touched the stove (she wasn't known for taking no for an answer).  She knew then the difference between hot and cold.

When my son was 2, he wasn't allowed to touch the VCR.  When he went to do it, you would noticed that he would stop first to look if some one was watching.   He knew he wasn't to touch it.  Since Eve tells the Serpent that, they knew that if they ate it, they would die.

And a detail often forgotten, God didn't say "if you eat it, I will kill you," He said "if you eat it, you will die."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
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Offline Byzantine2008

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2009, 08:03:25 PM »
The following reading from Genesis has me a little confused?

Hasn't Adam already eaten from the Tree of life?

What does God mean to live for ever? Would not have Adam lived for ever before the fall?


22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

In Christ.

If he hadn't already eaten, think of the implications: here Adam could have eaten form the Tree of Life, which was not forbidden, but instead he eats from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (not the Tree of Knowledge, btw: one of our number, Frank Zappa, got all tripped out over that), which was forbidden.  What was he thinking?

Another question with this passage is, if Adam/Eve only knew good and evil after eating of the tree, then how could God expect them to know it was wrong to eat of the tree before they had eaten from it? 
Knew in the Biblical sense.

Ah yes, I got myself confused with the tree of knowledge.. :)

"22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

Was the Tree of life also in Eden?

Please ignore my stupid question...  ;D

Not that stupid a question.  Fear not.  Not only was the Tree of Life in the garden, it was in the center of the garden, with the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (TOKGE) off to a side.  What's interesting is that, even though the Tree of Life is placed as the focus and central point of the garden, the TOKGE was the center of Adam & Eve's obsession and focus... The beginning of mankind's fascination with things that lead to sin.

Excellent explaination....

Thank you for that.

It is always great when guidance is available..
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 08:05:45 PM by Byzantine2008 »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2009, 08:22:40 PM »
Quote
"Adam knew his wife, and she conceived..."

I'm not sure what that has to do with the issue I brought up...?

Offline John of the North

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2009, 08:42:12 PM »
Quote
"Adam knew his wife, and she conceived..."

I'm not sure what that has to do with the issue I brought up...?


In the Biblical sense of the word, "knew" denotes some level of intimacy. Thus it may be the case that Adam and Eve knew of good and evil, yet partaking of the fruit (aka disobeying God) brought them into intimate knowledge of the concept of evil.

For example, I can say I know of Africa, as I have read about it, seen pictures etc. having never been there, I do not possess intimate knowledge of Africa.

I'm just babbling thouygh, probably way off base....
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2009, 08:47:07 PM »
Quote
"Adam knew his wife, and she conceived..."

I'm not sure what that has to do with the issue I brought up...?


You were arguing for the ignorance defense.  It it quite clear that they knew (savoir/wissen/scire/saber) that it was wrong, from what Eve told the Serpent, and what God said when He called them in the garden.  What the change was, was that they knew (connaiter/kennen/cognoscere/concocer) sin, i.e. its consequences.  That is the Knoweledge of Good [and more specifically] Evil.

Quote
"Adam knew his wife, and she conceived..."

I'm not sure what that has to do with the issue I brought up...?


In the Biblical sense of the word, "knew" denotes some level of intimacy. Thus it may be the case that Adam and Eve knew of good and evil, yet partaking of the fruit (aka disobeying God) brought them into intimate knowledge of the concept of evil.

For example, I can say I know of Africa, as I have read about it, seen pictures etc. having never been there, I do not possess intimate knowledge of Africa.

I'm just babbling thouygh, probably way off base....

No, you got it.  (what I was tallking about that is :P).
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 08:50:07 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline Tallitot

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2009, 01:42:34 AM »
Quote
"Adam knew his wife, and she conceived..."

I'm not sure what that has to do with the issue I brought up...?


nothing, i think ialmisry misread or misunderstood your original post.
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Offline John of the North

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2009, 01:54:16 AM »
Quote
"Adam knew his wife, and she conceived..."

I'm not sure what that has to do with the issue I brought up...?


nothing, i think ialmisry misread or misunderstood your original post.

???
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2009, 02:31:28 AM »
1) The "Biblical sense" of the verb "to know" is exactly that, "to know"/"to recognise". This is how the word is most often used in the Bible, and it is actually less often used to mean "sexual intercourse".

2) The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was not about sex.

3) I have no idea what this thread is about anymore.

4) I think Asteriktos asks an excellent question which remains unanswered:

Another question with this passage is, if Adam/Eve only knew good and evil after eating of the tree, then how could God expect them to know it was wrong to eat of the tree before they had eaten from it?
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2009, 02:47:06 AM »
Another question with this passage is, if Adam/Eve only knew good and evil after eating of the tree, then how could God expect them to know it was wrong to eat of the tree before they had eaten from it?

I'm sorry if this appears too obvious or if I'm missing anything....

God told Adam to not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil for they will die (Genesis 2:16-17).  Eve ate from the Tree and Adam ate with her, defying God's direct order.

The OP assumes a future event which could not have happened in the account described in Genesis just like the parting of the Red Sea didn't convince the Hebrews that the Holy Trinity existed.

Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2009, 04:07:48 AM »

3) I have no idea what this thread is about anymore.

I don't think I ever did. :)

Quote
4) I think Asteriktos asks an excellent question which remains unanswered:

Another question with this passage is, if Adam/Eve only knew good and evil after eating of the tree, then how could God expect them to know it was wrong to eat of the tree before they had eaten from it?

I agree, this is an excellent question. It's kind of similar to... if Adam/Eve had no experience of death and corruption, as some claim was the situation before the fall, how could they possibly understand the how devastating would be the consequences of their actions in disobeying God? If this is a literal history, one would surely would be excused for coming to the conclusion that this was a no-win situation, with all odds stacked against a positive outcome for the hopes of humankind.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 04:14:01 AM by Riddikulus »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2009, 07:08:10 AM »

3) I have no idea what this thread is about anymore.

I don't think I ever did. :)

Quote
4) I think Asteriktos asks an excellent question which remains unanswered:

Another question with this passage is, if Adam/Eve only knew good and evil after eating of the tree, then how could God expect them to know it was wrong to eat of the tree before they had eaten from it?

I agree, this is an excellent question. It's kind of similar to... if Adam/Eve had no experience of death and corruption, as some claim was the situation before the fall, how could they possibly understand the how devastating would be the consequences of their actions in disobeying God? If this is a literal history, one would surely would be excused for coming to the conclusion that this was a no-win situation, with all odds stacked against a positive outcome for the hopes of humankind.



Quote
2 The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’”

It seems pretty clear that it was clear enough to them: "don't do it."
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2009, 09:54:58 AM »
Repeating something that has been said, and understanding the consequences of it, are two different things though. Again, I don't see how they could know that it was wrong to do it before eating of the tree. But I don't want to press things too much, it's just something that I've been dwelling on.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 09:56:41 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2009, 10:06:46 AM »
^ Adam & Eve were created beings.  How could they understand death although they did understand wanting to be like God and never experiencing death?  Perhaps Adam & Eve lacked insight into their own theosis and wanted to experience death ... which they later realized was separation from God and from the Tree of Life.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2009, 10:06:55 AM »
Repeating something that has been said, and understanding the consequences of it, are two different things though.
That may be true, but the former suffices, and if you dwelt on the latter until you "fully/perfectly/whatever" understood the consequences, you will both fall into all sorts of pitfalls and also never get anything done.

Quote
Again, I don't see how they could know that it was wrong to do it before eating of the tree. But I don't want to press things too much, it's just something that I've been dwelling on.
Don't.

^ Adam & Eve were created beings.  How could they understand death although they did understand wanting to be like God and never experiencing death?  Perhaps Adam & Eve lacked insight into their own theosis and wanted to experience death ... which they later realized was separation from God and from the Tree of Life.

Excellent point: but, I'd say they knew death was something they didn't want, and knew that being like God was something they did want.  They knew, at some level, the consequences of their choice.  Suffices for a moral choice.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 10:10:04 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2009, 03:53:50 PM »
Another question with this passage is, if Adam/Eve only knew good and evil after eating of the tree, then how could God expect them to know it was wrong to eat of the tree before they had eaten from it?

God expected them to know it was wrong to eat of the tree because He had warned them about it before and He expected them to trust His word/command.

 Adam and Eve DID know the good and evil because their disobedience enabled them to separate good from evil. They knew that God was good whereas the serpent was evil.

According to God, it would be GOOD for them if they had NOT eaten of the tree (the act of eating was evil). According to the serpent, it would be GOOD for them if they had eaten of it (the prohibition was evil).
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2009, 04:52:26 PM »
So you guys are arguing that Scripture contradicts itself when it says that they had become aware of good and evil only after they ate of the tree. Interesting.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 04:52:41 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline Byzantine2008

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2009, 05:00:04 PM »
Why was man created before woman?
 ;D

Does it have a bearing to why the Christ came as a man?
 ;D
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2009, 05:11:50 PM »
So you guys are arguing that Scripture contradicts itself when it says that they had become aware of good and evil only after they ate of the tree. Interesting.

I can see no contradiction.

If Adam and Eve had known goodness & evil beforehand, they would not have been deceived by the serpent. They were not idiots.

Their eyes were opened (they realised they were naked) and they knew that they had done something bad only AFTER they had eaten of the tree.

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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2009, 05:21:05 PM »
Why was man created before woman?
 ;D

Does it have a bearing to why the Christ came as a man?
 ;D


The important thing is not why the man was created before woman, but that both the man and the woman realized their sin at the same time.

Christ is called the new and spiritual (celestial) Adam by Paul. However, in Christian marital hierarchy, Christ is depicted as the head of man, who is said to be the head of the woman. Thus, Christ unites both men (directly) and women (indirectly) to God as the only human mediator.

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Offline Byzantine2008

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2009, 05:32:45 PM »
Why was man created before woman?
 ;D

Does it have a bearing to why the Christ came as a man?
 ;D


The important thing is not why the man was created before woman, but that both the man and the woman realized their sin at the same time.

Christ is called the new and spiritual (celestial) Adam by Paul. However, in Christian marital hierarchy, Christ is depicted as the head of man, who is said to be the head of the woman. Thus, Christ unites both men (directly) and women (indirectly) to God as the only human mediator.



Is there any theological significance why man was created before woman?

It is just that I was asked that question and I had no answer... ;D
« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 05:33:04 PM by Byzantine2008 »
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2009, 06:04:24 PM »

Is there any theological significance why man was created before woman?

It is just that I was asked that question and I had no answer... ;D

When different creatures of God are compared (animals, plants, humans), the book of Genesis does not state the primacy of man in creation, referring to the simultaneous creation of both sexes. The book of Genesis gives primacy to the man only when it focuses on the creation of humans. This is because the second story aims to regulate marital affairs. It devises a marriage pattern for humans and adapts it to the account of creation. It tries to answer the questions why and how one sex was created for the other. (It says the man was created first because men generally go and choose a woman, men are generally more eager for sex, it is generally men who start and end a sexual relation, men are generally physically stronger than women, etc)


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Offline Byzantine2008

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2009, 06:32:44 PM »

Is there any theological significance why man was created before woman?

It is just that I was asked that question and I had no answer... ;D

When different creatures of God are compared (animals, plants, humans), the book of Genesis does not state the primacy of man in creation, referring to the simultaneous creation of both sexes. The book of Genesis gives primacy to the man only when it focuses on the creation of humans. This is because the second story aims to regulate marital affairs. It devises a marriage pattern for humans and adapts it to the account of creation. It tries to answer the questions why and how one sex was created for the other. (It says the man was created first because men generally go and choose a woman, men are generally more eager for sex, it is generally men who start and end a sexual relation, men are generally physically stronger than women, etc)




How do you answer this question to children who are 8 yrs old?
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Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2009, 06:49:53 PM »

Is there any theological significance why man was created before woman?

It is just that I was asked that question and I had no answer... ;D

When different creatures of God are compared (animals, plants, humans), the book of Genesis does not state the primacy of man in creation, referring to the simultaneous creation of both sexes. The book of Genesis gives primacy to the man only when it focuses on the creation of humans. This is because the second story aims to regulate marital affairs. It devises a marriage pattern for humans and adapts it to the account of creation. It tries to answer the questions why and how one sex was created for the other. (It says the man was created first because men generally go and choose a woman, men are generally more eager for sex, it is generally men who start and end a sexual relation, men are generally physically stronger than women, etc)



How do you answer this question to children who are 8 yrs old?

Just tell them that men go and ask girls out, the bridegroom is responsible for the wedding, etc
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2009, 07:11:09 PM »
Quote
I can see no contradiction.

Ok, I guess we see different things then :)


Quote
Is there any theological significance why man was created before woman?

Because men were considered superior? Paul seems to draw that conclusion from men being formed first:

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." - 1 Tim. 2:11-14

Now I don't buy that myself, I actually think women are slightly superior, but that's just me. :)

Offline Byzantine2008

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2009, 07:23:11 PM »
Quote
I can see no contradiction.

Ok, I guess we see different things then :)


Quote
Is there any theological significance why man was created before woman?

Because men were considered superior? Paul seems to draw that conclusion from men being formed first:

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." - 1 Tim. 2:11-14

Now I don't buy that myself, I actually think women are slightly superior, but that's just me. :)

I don't really buy that as a valid reason why man was created before woman.

But I wouldn't totally disagree. ;D
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2009, 09:31:57 PM »

3) I have no idea what this thread is about anymore.

I don't think I ever did. :)

Quote
4) I think Asteriktos asks an excellent question which remains unanswered:

Another question with this passage is, if Adam/Eve only knew good and evil after eating of the tree, then how could God expect them to know it was wrong to eat of the tree before they had eaten from it?

I agree, this is an excellent question. It's kind of similar to... if Adam/Eve had no experience of death and corruption, as some claim was the situation before the fall, how could they possibly understand the how devastating would be the consequences of their actions in disobeying God? If this is a literal history, one would surely would be excused for coming to the conclusion that this was a no-win situation, with all odds stacked against a positive outcome for the hopes of humankind.



Quote
2 The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’”

It seems pretty clear that it was clear enough to them: "don't do it."

But "they" weren't told. According to Genesis 2, Adam is alone when he is told not to eat of the tree. That is before the creation of Eve, so it looks like she received the commandment secondhand. Yet, when she repeats the commandment to the serpent, she has already added an embellishment. She adds that they are not to even touch the tree, which isn't what God commanded at all.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2009, 09:51:31 PM »

Is there any theological significance why man was created before woman?

It is just that I was asked that question and I had no answer... ;D

When different creatures of God are compared (animals, plants, humans), the book of Genesis does not state the primacy of man in creation, referring to the simultaneous creation of both sexes. The book of Genesis gives primacy to the man only when it focuses on the creation of humans. This is because the second story aims to regulate marital affairs. It devises a marriage pattern for humans and adapts it to the account of creation. It tries to answer the questions why and how one sex was created for the other. (It says the man was created first because men generally go and choose a woman, men are generally more eager for sex, it is generally men who start and end a sexual relation, men are generally physically stronger than women, etc)



How do you answer this question to children who are 8 yrs old?

Just tell them that men go and ask girls out, the bridegroom is responsible for the wedding, etc

LOL.  You evidently don't have the bridezilla phenomena in the Turkish Republic.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridezilla_(term)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 10:06:58 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2009, 09:53:33 PM »

3) I have no idea what this thread is about anymore.

I don't think I ever did. :)

Quote
4) I think Asteriktos asks an excellent question which remains unanswered:

Another question with this passage is, if Adam/Eve only knew good and evil after eating of the tree, then how could God expect them to know it was wrong to eat of the tree before they had eaten from it?

I agree, this is an excellent question. It's kind of similar to... if Adam/Eve had no experience of death and corruption, as some claim was the situation before the fall, how could they possibly understand the how devastating would be the consequences of their actions in disobeying God? If this is a literal history, one would surely would be excused for coming to the conclusion that this was a no-win situation, with all odds stacked against a positive outcome for the hopes of humankind.



Quote
2 The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’”

It seems pretty clear that it was clear enough to them: "don't do it."

But "they" weren't told. According to Genesis 2, Adam is alone when he is told not to eat of the tree. That is before the creation of Eve, so it looks like she received the commandment secondhand. Yet, when she repeats the commandment to the serpent, she has already added an embellishment. She adds that they are not to even touch the tree, which isn't what God commanded at all.

Even better.  As the Fathers say, if you don't want to slip, stay out of slippery places.
If only she had held that thought, or as someone's sig says If Adam only said "but dear, serpents don't talk."
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2009, 09:56:25 PM »
Why was man created before woman?
 ;D

Does it have a bearing to why the Christ came as a man?
 ;D


The important thing is not why the man was created before woman, but that both the man and the woman realized their sin at the same time.

Christ is called the new and spiritual (celestial) Adam by Paul. However, in Christian marital hierarchy, Christ is depicted as the head of man, who is said to be the head of the woman. Thus, Christ unites both men (directly) and women (indirectly) to God as the only human mediator.



Is there any theological significance why man was created before woman?

It is just that I was asked that question and I had no answer... ;D
Because the most perfect human who was only human would be a woman, it wouldn't be fair if man wasn't created first.  Woman was taken out of man so that the God-Man could be taken out of a women.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2009, 10:17:58 PM »
Asteriktos & Riddikulus,
With regard to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, do you think this may mean: "the Knowledge and authority required to discern moral questions"? In other words, rather than simply obey Commands of God, eating the fruit gave them the ability and responsibility of discerning for themselves the correct moral course of action in each moral situation? If we follow this reasoning, then it was not so much the "knowledge of right from wrong" they would acquire by eating the fruit, but rather, the responsibility of having to discern this for themselves rather than simply obeying clear directives from God such as the Commandment to Fast from the fruit of the tree. This would mean that they actually did have a conscience before eating the fruit, but at that point their conscience was "simple"- ie follow the "simple" and "direct" Commandments of God, rather than have to use discernment which is now a spiritual gift we attain through the struggle towards theosis?
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2009, 10:21:38 PM »
ozgeorge,

That's an interesting thought, I'll have to chew on that one! :)

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2009, 03:39:59 AM »
Yes, I agree with George on this one.

I've also heard an interpretation where the tree of knowledge is not bad in and of itself; it was just taken at the wrong time, at Adam and Eve's state of immaturity.  All they needed to know was if you obey God, you'll stay in the garden, and you'll be fine.  They were fooled to think they'll be like God, so they'll be fine anyway, so they did know they disobeyed Him, and they knew they did wrong on that issue.

St. Athanasius said that in order to reserve their grace of incorruption, two things took place, a law and a place.  The law was simple, obey God:  don't eat that tree.  Place:  Paradise (typified as a garden).  Stay here, away from the world and don't eat that tree or else you'll die surely.  When you grow, you'll understand. (it is also believed by Church fathers, like St. Irenaeus that when they grow, the Logos was going to be incarnate anyway, and it is then when they can partake both of Life and Knowledge in Christ).  Well, like children, they didn't want to wait.
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Genesis Reading need explaination??
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2009, 04:45:15 AM »
Asteriktos & Riddikulus,
With regard to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, do you think this may mean: "the Knowledge and authority required to discern moral questions"? In other words, rather than simply obey Commands of God, eating the fruit gave them the ability and responsibility of discerning for themselves the correct moral course of action in each moral situation? If we follow this reasoning, then it was not so much the "knowledge of right from wrong" they would acquire by eating the fruit, but rather, the responsibility of having to discern this for themselves rather than simply obeying clear directives from God such as the Commandment to Fast from the fruit of the tree. This would mean that they actually did have a conscience before eating the fruit, but at that point their conscience was "simple"- ie follow the "simple" and "direct" Commandments of God, rather than have to use discernment which is now a spiritual gift we attain through the struggle towards theosis?

Yes, George, that is a good thought. It could well be as you say. Something to cogitate.



« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 04:46:22 AM by Riddikulus »
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