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Irish Hermit
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« on: March 13, 2009, 03:50:16 AM »

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=14708
 
03/12/2009 15:34

TURKEY
Journey begins toward convening of grand pan-Orthodox synod

NAT da Polis

The invitation letters have gone out for the two preparatory meetings that
will be held in June and December. Ten topics of discussion. The ecumenical
patriarchate has been trying to hold a synod of Orthodox Churches since
1901.


 

Istanbul (AsiaNews) - With the sending of letters of invitation to all the
heads of the Orthodox Churches for the two preparatory meetings for the
grand pan-Orthodox synod, scheduled for June and December of this year,
Bartholomew has set in motion the decisions made at the recent pan-Orthodox
meeting in October, held in Constantinople, and attended by deceased
patriarch of Moscow Alexy as his last act in life.

Bartholomew has stepped up the pace for the convening of the grand synod,
which has the objective of responding to all of the problems that have built
up over the course of centuries, and continue to plague relations among the
Orthodox Churches, with extensive repercussions for the dialogue between
Orthodox and Catholics as well. The schism of 1054, with all of its grave
consequences for the universal Church, also deprived the Orthodox Church of
the necessary impetus and ability to be constantly present in the course of
history.

In the recent past, a first initiative for the convening of a pan-Orthodox
synod was undertaken by Patriarch Ioakim III in 1901. He wanted to smooth
over the tensions among the autocephalous Orthodox Churches, in the
conviction that only an Orthodox Church engaged in a constant and
constructive inner dialogue could face the challenges of the contemporary
world and act with one voice and one heart. This initiative did not succeed,
in part because the Orthodox Churches, which had recently emerged from
Ottoman rule, were seeking their identity in an exaggerated identification
with the nation, and the full breadth of the Christian message was not
instilled in their clergy.

After various mishaps, in 1961 a pan-Orthodox conference was convened in
Rhodes, with significant pressure from patriarch Athenagoras, for the
purpose of preparing an Orthodox synod. This conference was also followed by
numerous obstacles, because as theologian Giorgos Tetsetis observes, the
local Churches did not have a clear idea of what they wanted from the Synod.

Now, the letters sent for the two preparatory meetings to be held in June,
in Cyprus, and in December, in a place to be determined, present the
following topics: 1. The Orthodox diaspora, where the jurisdiction over the
Orthodox flock beyond national borders will be defined. According to the
canons now in effect, before the growth in the phenomenon of emigration the
faithful outside of their home country belong to the ecumenical
patriarchate. 2. The manner of recognizing the status of autocephalous
Church. 3. The manner of recognizing the status of Church autonomy. 4.
Dypticha, meaning the rules of mutual canonical recognition among the
Orthodox Churches. 5. Establishing a common calendar for feasts. For
example, some Churches celebrate the Nativity on December 25, others 10 days
later. 6. Impediments and canonicity of the sacrament of matrimony. 7. The
question of fasting in the contemporary world. 8. Relationships with the
other Christian confessions. 9. The ecumenical movement. 10. The
contribution of the Orthodox in affirming the Christian ideals of peace,
fraternity, and freedom.

The first four questions were the cause of friction in 1993 and 1999 with
the patriarch of Moscow, because of participation in the work of the
autonomous Estonian Church, with Moscow does not recognize.

"It is time," says Fr. Tetsetis, a theologian for the ecumenical
patriarchate, "that our Church finally realize that it is doing poorly as a
whole. The Church needs an open and sincere dialogue. Because it is only
then, with its rich tradition as a compass, that it will be able to emerge
from its blind alley and together face its existential problems, which are
becoming increasingly severe and complicated. It is only then that the
importance of the Ecumenical Patriarch's initiative can be understood."
According to the journalist Aris Viketos, the letter from Bartholomew is
being well received in the Orthodox world.




« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 03:57:14 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2009, 03:58:38 AM »

Well, I hope this goes well...
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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2009, 07:19:12 AM »

I was wondering about the inaccuracies, and then I saw the source:

I'm refering to the Vatican newspaper, not the good Father.
 
Quote
03/12/2009 15:34

TURKEY
Journey begins toward convening of grand pan-Orthodox synod

NAT da Polis

The invitation letters have gone out for the two preparatory meetings that
will be held in June and December. Ten topics of discussion. The ecumenical
patriarchate has been trying to hold a synod of Orthodox Churches since
1901.


 

Istanbul (AsiaNews) - With the sending of letters of invitation to all the
heads of the Orthodox Churches for the two preparatory meetings for the
grand pan-Orthodox synod, scheduled for June and December of this year,
Bartholomew has set in motion the decisions made at the recent pan-Orthodox
meeting in October, held in Constantinople, and attended by deceased
patriarch of Moscow Alexy as his last act in life.

Bartholomew has stepped up the pace for the convening of the grand synod,
which has the objective of responding to all of the problems that have built
up over the course of centuries, and continue to plague relations among the
Orthodox Churches, with extensive repercussions for the dialogue between
Orthodox and Catholics as well. The schism of 1054, with all of its grave
consequences for the universal Church, also deprived the Orthodox Church of
the necessary impetus and ability to be constantly present in the course of
history
.

Thank you Vatican, but we have done fine without you, convening Constantinople V to deal with your Scholasticism, the Synod of Jassy to deal with your Uniatism, and the Synod of Jerusalem to deal with your Protestantism, not to mention the nice letters that the Patriarchs of the East sent you in 1848 and 1895.

Quote
In the recent past, a first initiative for the convening of a pan-Orthodox
synod was undertaken by Patriarch Ioakim III in 1901. He wanted to smooth
over the tensions among the autocephalous Orthodox Churches, in the
conviction that only an Orthodox Church engaged in a constant and
constructive inner dialogue could face the challenges of the contemporary
world and act with one voice and one heart. This initiative did not succeed,
in part because the Orthodox Churches, which had recently emerged from
Ottoman rule, were seeking their identity in an exaggerated identification
with the nation, and the full breadth of the Christian message was not
instilled in their clergy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.  We know you think we are just a bunch of ethnic Churches (your emphasis on the plural noted), and missing Peter for that "full breadth."  But then around the same time your exaggerated identification with Rome and the full breadth of the Christian message was not instilled in your hierarchy, which is how Archbishop Ireland became the Father of American Orthodoxy.

Quote
After various mishaps, in 1961 a pan-Orthodox conference was convened in
Rhodes, with significant pressure from patriarch Athenagoras, for the
purpose of preparing an Orthodox synod. This conference was also followed by
numerous obstacles, because as theologian Giorgos Tetsetis observes, the
local Churches did not have a clear idea of what they wanted from the Synod.

Well, at least we are not being called Vatican II copy cats.

If they didn't have a clear idea of what they wanted, that would be a clear sign that a Synod wasn't warrented.

Quote
Now, the letters sent for the two preparatory meetings to be held in June,
in Cyprus, and in December, in a place to be determined, present the
following topics: 1. The Orthodox diaspora, where the jurisdiction over the
Orthodox flock beyond national borders will be defined. According to the
canons now in effect, before the growth in the phenomenon of emigration the
faithful outside of their home country belong to the ecumenical
patriarchate.

I know that supporting your fans for an Eastern Pope suits your purpose, but no one but the EP buys this line.

Quote
2. The manner of recognizing the status of autocephalous
Church. 3. The manner of recognizing the status of Church autonomy. 4.
Dypticha, meaning the rules of mutual canonical recognition among the
Orthodox Churches. 5. Establishing a common calendar for feasts. For
example, some Churches celebrate the Nativity on December 25, others 10 days
later.


13 days, a simple fact you would know if you knew what you were talking about. I won't even go into the fact that it is Dec. 25 for the later celebration.

Quote
6. Impediments and canonicity of the sacrament of matrimony.

Does any have an ORTHODOX source on this?  It reeks of Vatican Corban?  Or perhaps the EP and Met. Zizioulis (spllng?) are sneaking that in?

Quote
7. The question of fasting in the contemporary world. 8. Relationships with the
other Christian confessions.

I hope the Miaphsites are the first priority in this, not another communion with whom we do NOT share Orthodoxy.

Quote
9. The ecumenical movement. 10. The
contribution of the Orthodox in affirming the Christian ideals of peace,
fraternity, and freedom.

The first four questions were the cause of friction in 1993 and 1999 with
the patriarch of Moscow, because of participation in the work of the
autonomous Estonian Church, with Moscow does not recognize.

Taking sides, are we, in this disagreement? I wonder why. Roll Eyes  Moscow recognizes her own, canonical, autonomous Estonian Church. The one set up and run by Estonians, and not by people from Turkey and the Congo.

Quote
"It is time," says Fr. Tetsetis, a theologian for the ecumenical
patriarchate, "that our Church finally realize that it is doing poorly as a
whole. The Church needs an open and sincere dialogue. Because it is only
then, with its rich tradition as a compass, that it will be able to emerge
from its blind alley and together face its existential problems, which are
becoming increasingly severe and complicated. It is only then that the
importance of the Ecumenical Patriarch's initiative can be understood."
According to the journalist Aris Viketos, the letter from Bartholomew is
being well received in the Orthodox world.

Is Met. Jonas' invitation in the mail? If not, I hope Moscow won't be going.

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« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2009, 08:25:11 AM »

Isa, I know this is hard, but don't assume any motives on behalf of Orthodox clergy, Patriarchs, "theologians," etc. based on an AsiaNews article. Once they're done selling their snake-oil, you may discover that it's not what they claim it is.
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« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2009, 08:46:03 AM »

Is Met. Jonas' invitation in the mail? If not, I hope Moscow won't be going.


Don't know about the OCA since the overwhelming majority of the Orthodox Churches who will be at the Great Synod do not accept its autocephaly. Probably 11 out of the 14 Churches do not accept it and will not expect the OCA to participate.

This whole Synod proposal is clearly very important to Constantinople since immediately upon Patriarch Kirill's enthronement Constantinople sent him a letter urging him to assist in an expeditious preparation for the Council.  Anybody have a copy of that letter?
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« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2009, 09:31:15 AM »

Is Met. Jonas' invitation in the mail? If not, I hope Moscow won't be going.


Don't know about the OCA since the overwhelming majority of the Orthodox Churches who will be at the Great Synod do not accept its autocephaly. Probably 11 out of the 14 Churches do not accept it and will not expect the OCA to participate.

Will Estonia be showing up?

I'm not sure unaminity is determinitive: did anyone recognize the CoG's when she took it?  Romania's?  And then we have the precedence of Constantinople recognizing autocephalies that Moscow didn't (e.g. Poland).

Quote
This whole Synod proposal is clearly very important to Constantinople since immediately upon Patriarch Kirill's enthronement Constantinople sent him a letter urging him to assist in an expeditious preparation for the Council.  Anybody have a copy of that letter?
I would suspect it of having to do with the passing of the Estonian Patriarch Alexei, but then again, Alexei was in on the discussions this fall, no?

Isa, I know this is hard, but don't assume any motives on behalf of Orthodox clergy, Patriarchs, "theologians," etc. based on an AsiaNews article. Once they're done selling their snake-oil, you may discover that it's not what they claim it is.

I'm basing it more on the EP showing up in Ravenna with his "Estonian," and the ensuing "statements."

The problem is that we have real issues that really need to be addressed.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 09:55:07 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2009, 09:36:18 AM »

Even if the OCA is not recognized Metropolitan Jonah should come as part of the Russian Church right? I mean is that not the "supposed" argument with the EP that the OCA is still under the MP? If thats the case at the very least Metropolitan Jonah should then come with the MP I would thing. Is my thinking off base?
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« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2009, 10:04:00 AM »

These are preparatory meetings and they are not the first two but rather the next two. So far there have been over a dozen such meetings over the past 50 years. Only about 20 or so people are invited to these meetings, usually a representative from each of the churches and some key individuals.

When the Grand Pan-Orthodox Synod convenes every Orthodox Bishop in the World will be invited. It is even possible that some of the churches that aren't in commune with anyone (like the Free Macedonians and the Greek Old Calandarist) might be invited because the issues being discussed are related to the events that caused these groups to go into schism and it would be the hope that this synod would end these schisms.

There is much work for the preparatory meetings and we might hear of a dozen more before we hear a date for the Grand Synod.
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« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2009, 10:18:05 AM »

I think this is wonderfull news and pray that healing and unity come out of it!
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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2009, 10:57:11 AM »


When the Grand Pan-Orthodox Synod convenes every Orthodox Bishop in the World will be invited. It is even possible that some of the churches that aren't in commune with anyone (like the Free Macedonians and the Greek Old Calandarist) might be invited because the issues being discussed are related to the events that caused these groups to go into schism and it would be the hope that this synod would end these schisms.

One would certainly hope that both of these ideals are achieved. Moreover, I would wish that just the prospect of a Great Synod will motivate the healing of schisms before the council.

I do wonder at the status of auxiliary bishops in this event. Anyone know what has been done in past or if that question has ever even been an issue?

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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2009, 02:36:19 PM »

If the preparatory meetings (like the recent one) involve just the Primates and/or their representatives, I suppose I can accept them still taking place in Constantinople, but am still concerned for their safety.  As for the actual council/Pan-Synod, if ALL bishops are invited, then it would really scare me to have it in Constantinople.  I just don't trust the Muslim extremists or other organizations for that matter.  They should have it in Geneva or some type of "neutral" place.
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« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2009, 02:40:31 PM »

If the preparatory meetings (like the recent one) involve just the Primates and/or their representatives, I suppose I can accept them still taking place in Constantinople, but am still concerned for their safety.  As for the actual council/Pan-Synod, if ALL bishops are invited, then it would really scare me to have it in Constantinople.  I just don't trust the Muslim extremists or other organizations for that matter.  They should have it in Geneva or some type of "neutral" place.

A "neutral" place with an Orthodox church... The meetings that take place in Constantinople take place in the Cathedral of St. George; there are plenty of such locations throughout Europe.
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« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2009, 02:46:46 PM »

If the preparatory meetings (like the recent one) involve just the Primates and/or their representatives, I suppose I can accept them still taking place in Constantinople, but am still concerned for their safety.  As for the actual council/Pan-Synod, if ALL bishops are invited, then it would really scare me to have it in Constantinople.  I just don't trust the Muslim extremists or other organizations for that matter.  They should have it in Geneva or some type of "neutral" place.

A "neutral" place with an Orthodox church... The meetings that take place in Constantinople take place in the Cathedral of St. George; there are plenty of such locations throughout Europe.
Well, yes.  I just threw out Geneva since it has been the site of all these political meetings over the years.  I'm sure Geneva does have a Church (I think under the MP or ROCOR), but I wouldn't be surprised if it was barely big enough just to fit the bishops in last year's meeting, let alone whoever would be invited to the Great Synod.
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« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2009, 03:16:57 PM »

When the Grand Pan-Orthodox Synod convenes every Orthodox Bishop in the World will be invited. It is even possible that some of the churches that aren't in commune with anyone (like the Free Macedonians and the Greek Old Calandarist) might be invited because the issues being discussed are related to the events that caused these groups to go into schism and it would be the hope that this synod would end these schisms.

Would the POPE be invited?
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« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2009, 03:27:09 PM »

When the Grand Pan-Orthodox Synod convenes every Orthodox Bishop in the World will be invited. It is even possible that some of the churches that aren't in commune with anyone (like the Free Macedonians and the Greek Old Calandarist) might be invited because the issues being discussed are related to the events that caused these groups to go into schism and it would be the hope that this synod would end these schisms.

Would the POPE be invited?
Which one?  Grin
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« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2009, 03:44:09 PM »

When the Grand Pan-Orthodox Synod convenes every Orthodox Bishop in the World will be invited. It is even possible that some of the churches that aren't in commune with anyone (like the Free Macedonians and the Greek Old Calandarist) might be invited because the issues being discussed are related to the events that caused these groups to go into schism and it would be the hope that this synod would end these schisms.

Would the POPE be invited?
Which one?  Grin

This one:
http://www.greekorthodox-alexandria.org/index.php?module=content&cid=001002
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« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2009, 03:47:04 PM »

When the Grand Pan-Orthodox Synod convenes every Orthodox Bishop in the World will be invited. It is even possible that some of the churches that aren't in commune with anyone (like the Free Macedonians and the Greek Old Calandarist) might be invited because the issues being discussed are related to the events that caused these groups to go into schism and it would be the hope that this synod would end these schisms.

Would the POPE be invited?

Maybe as a observer.
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« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2009, 03:47:30 PM »

When the Grand Pan-Orthodox Synod convenes every Orthodox Bishop in the World will be invited. It is even possible that some of the churches that aren't in commune with anyone (like the Free Macedonians and the Greek Old Calandarist) might be invited because the issues being discussed are related to the events that caused these groups to go into schism and it would be the hope that this synod would end these schisms.

Would the POPE be invited?
Which one?  Grin

This one:
http://www.greekorthodox-alexandria.org/index.php?module=content&cid=001002

Yeah...OURS
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« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2009, 04:34:47 PM »

I'm sure Geneva does have a Church (I think under the MP or ROCOR), but I wouldn't be surprised if it was barely big enough just to fit the bishops in last year's meeting, let alone whoever would be invited to the Great Synod.

HERE it is. One Russian Church.
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« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2009, 04:40:07 PM »

If the preparatory meetings (like the recent one) involve just the Primates and/or their representatives, I suppose I can accept them still taking place in Constantinople, but am still concerned for their safety.  As for the actual council/Pan-Synod, if ALL bishops are invited, then it would really scare me to have it in Constantinople.  I just don't trust the Muslim extremists or other organizations for that matter.  They should have it in Geneva or some type of "neutral" place.

A "neutral" place with an Orthodox church... The meetings that take place in Constantinople take place in the Cathedral of St. George; there are plenty of such locations throughout Europe.
Well, yes.  I just threw out Geneva since it has been the site of all these political meetings over the years.  I'm sure Geneva does have a Church (I think under the MP or ROCOR), but I wouldn't be surprised if it was barely big enough just to fit the bishops in last year's meeting, let alone whoever would be invited to the Great Synod.

You bring up a great point: where are the mega-churches of old?  The Cathedrals and cathedral-esque churches of Ephesus, Constantinople, Chalcedon?  (I've been to Nicea, and while the palace & Church of the 1st synod are at the bottom of the lake, the site of the 7th Synod - St. Sophia in the present-day center of Iznik - isn't that large, and certainly not that impressive (any more).)  We haven't had a huge pan-Orthodox synod with all bishops invited since those days (heck, most of the time "all bishops" weren't invited back then, either), so we haven't had a need for such a large church...
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« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2009, 04:41:58 PM »

... of course, now that I think of it, I'm sure that Constantinople's St. George could work - they could make the seating adequate, and if they really had (say) a hundred Russian bishops present, there would be also, oh, I don't know - maybe a hundred "security agents" to keep the meetings safe, courtesy of the Russian government.
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« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2009, 04:48:33 PM »

Maybe the Turks would loan us local museum...  Grin
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« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2009, 04:56:34 PM »

Maybe the Turks would loan us local museum...  Grin

And allow us to redecotate its interior as it looked like before 1453.
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« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2009, 06:16:35 PM »

Maybe the Turks would loan us local museum...  Grin

And maybe they'll abandon The City to Greek control...
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« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2009, 06:31:09 PM »

I'm sure Geneva does have a Church (I think under the MP or ROCOR), but I wouldn't be surprised if it was barely big enough just to fit the bishops in last year's meeting, let alone whoever would be invited to the Great Synod.

HERE it is. One Russian Church.

I've been to the ROCOR parish in Geneva and you'd be lucky to fit 40 people inside.

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« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2009, 06:44:48 PM »

How about just using St. Peter's in Rome?  We need Papal approval for a synod to be ecumenical anyway. 
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« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2009, 06:52:05 PM »

How about just using St. Peter's in Rome?  We need Papal approval for a synod to be ecumenical anyway. 
LOL!  Cheesy Just like we need Papal approval to use our own Basilica in Rome. Cheesy
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« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2009, 08:02:51 PM »

I'm sure Geneva does have a Church (I think under the MP or ROCOR), but I wouldn't be surprised if it was barely big enough just to fit the bishops in last year's meeting, let alone whoever would be invited to the Great Synod.

HERE it is. One Russian Church.

I've been to the ROCOR parish in Geneva and you'd be lucky to fit 40 people inside.

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Yeah, I remember it being "cozy."
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« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2009, 08:08:51 PM »

How about just using St. Peter's in Rome?  We need Papal approval for a synod to be ecumenical anyway. 
LOL!  Cheesy Just like we need Papal approval to use our own Basilica in Rome. Cheesy

Just to make sure everyone knows, St. Peter's is actually the Metochion (what the Vatican calls Titular) of Constantinople in Rome.

When the Grand Pan-Orthodox Synod convenes every Orthodox Bishop in the World will be invited. It is even possible that some of the churches that aren't in commune with anyone (like the Free Macedonians and the Greek Old Calandarist) might be invited because the issues being discussed are related to the events that caused these groups to go into schism and it would be the hope that this synod would end these schisms.

Would the POPE be invited?

Maybe as a observer.

Why?  He never showed up at any of the Ecumenical Councils, even at the Fifth, when Justinian gave Pope Vigilius a "personal" invitation and escort to come.
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« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2009, 08:17:32 PM »

Why?  He never showed up at any of the Ecumenical Councils, even at the Fifth, when Justinian gave Pope Vigilius a "personal" invitation and escort to come.

That's why I used the word Maybe!
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« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2009, 09:11:42 PM »

I'm sure Cardinal Kasper and his entourage would be there as observers.
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« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2009, 11:21:42 PM »

I'm sure Cardinal Kasper and his entourage would be there as observers.
Isn't he the one who says we are not a Church?
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« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2009, 11:55:43 PM »

I'm sure Cardinal Kasper and his entourage would be there as observers.
Isn't he the one who says we are not a Church?

I believe he said "We are increasingly conscious of the fact that an Orthodox Church does not really exist." concerning the fact that the Orthodox Church does not have a central figure/voice like the Pope of Rome within the Roman Catholic Church.  Not defending him, of course.

He is the President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, so it would be his "job" to go.
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« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2009, 12:47:29 AM »

I believe he said "We are increasingly conscious of the fact that an Orthodox Church does not really exist." concerning the fact that the Orthodox Church does not have a central figure/voice like the Pope of Rome within the Roman Catholic Church.  Not defending him, of course.

He is the President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, so it would be his "job" to go.

Doesn't seem well qualified for the job!  Grin

As you say, he remarked:  "We are increasingly conscious of the fact that an Orthodox Church does not really exist"

On the face of it, it's a rather unusual lapse in good manners and diplomacy by the President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity.  Roll Eyes


Of course, what he probably had in mind and wanted to say was that he wishes that the Orthodox had the same ecclesiological paradigm of "church" as his own does. This would make ecumenical business so much easier if it were so, if we were all moulded in the Roman Catholic mould, if we had a centralised authority in Istanbul to whom the whole Church were obedient.  But the fact is that the "structure" of the Orthodox Church (maybe better to say Churches) is not the same as the Roman Catholic Church.

There is a small essay penned in response to the Cardinal's moment of confusion. I don't know if he has ever seen it but it may help towards mutual understanding...

An Orthodox Reply to the Opinion of Cardinal Walter Kasper:
'The Orthodox Church does not really exist.'

http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/cardinal.htm

Fr Ambrose
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« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2009, 12:57:03 AM »

He's had 7 years since then to get used to the Orthodox ways.   laugh

"We are increasingly conscious of the fact that an Orthodox Church does not really exist. At the present stage, it does not seem that Constantinople is yet capable of integrating the different autocephalous Orthodox churches. There are doubts about its primacy of honor, especially in Moscow."
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« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2009, 04:18:13 AM »

He's had 7 years since then to get used to the Orthodox ways.   laugh

"We are increasingly conscious of the fact that an Orthodox Church does not really exist. At the present stage, it does not seem that Constantinople is yet capable of integrating the different autocephalous Orthodox churches. There are doubts about its primacy of honor, especially in Moscow."

I wonder what he means by Constantinople's inability to integrate our Churches?   Is the suggestion that Constantinople makes all the Local Churches into auxiliary Churches? 
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« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2009, 04:29:58 AM »

He's had 7 years since then to get used to the Orthodox ways.   laugh

"We are increasingly conscious of the fact that an Orthodox Church does not really exist. At the present stage, it does not seem that Constantinople is yet capable of integrating the different autocephalous Orthodox churches. There are doubts about its primacy of honor, especially in Moscow."

I wonder what he means by Constantinople's inability to integrate our Churches?   Is the suggestion that Constantinople makes all the Local Churches into auxiliary Churches? 


Some paranoia, I'd say.
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« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2009, 05:49:47 AM »

I have split off a tangent about the concept of the first among equals and moved it here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=20203.0
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« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2009, 12:36:48 PM »

I believe he said "We are increasingly conscious of the fact that an Orthodox Church does not really exist." concerning the fact that the Orthodox Church does not have a central figure/voice like the Pope of Rome within the Roman Catholic Church.  Not defending him, of course.

He is the President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, so it would be his "job" to go.

Doesn't seem well qualified for the job!  Grin

As you say, he remarked:  "We are increasingly conscious of the fact that an Orthodox Church does not really exist"

On the face of it, it's a rather unusual lapse in good manners and diplomacy by the President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity.  Roll Eyes


Of course, what he probably had in mind and wanted to say was that he wishes that the Orthodox had the same ecclesiological paradigm of "church" as his own does. This would make ecumenical business so much easier if it were so, if we were all moulded in the Roman Catholic mould, if we had a centralised authority in Istanbul to whom the whole Church were obedient.  But the fact is that the "structure" of the Orthodox Church (maybe better to say Churches) is not the same as the Roman Catholic Church.

There is a small essay penned in response to the Cardinal's moment of confusion. I don't know if he has ever seen it but it may help towards mutual understanding...

An Orthodox Reply to the Opinion of Cardinal Walter Kasper:
'The Orthodox Church does not really exist.'

http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/cardinal.htm

Fr Ambrose


Interesting that the good Cardinal gets it right when talking to Anglicans, whose orders he doesn't recognize:
Quote
In brief, I argued that unity, unanimity and koinonia (communion) are fundamental concepts in the New Testament and in the early Church. I argued: “From the beginning the episcopal office was “koinonially” or collegially embedded in the communion of all bishops; it was never perceived as an office to be understood or practised individually.” Then I turned to the theology of the episcopal office of a Church Father of great importance for Anglicans and Catholics alike, the martyr bishop Cyprian of Carthage of the third century.

His sentence “episcopatus unus et indivisus” is well known. This sentence stands in the context of an urgent admonition by Cyprian to his fellow bishops: “Quam unitatem tenere firmiter et vindicare debemus maxime episcopi, qui in ecclesia praesidimus, ut episcopatum quoque ipsum unum atque indivisum probemus.” [“And this unity we ought firmly to hold and assert, especially those of us that are bishops who preside in the church, that we may also prove the episcopate one and undivided.”] This urgent exhortation is followed by a precise interpretation of the statement “episcopatus unus et indivisus”. “Episcopatus unus est cuius a singulis in solidum pars tenetur” [“The episcopate is one, each part of which is held by each one for the whole.”] (De ecclesiae catholicae unitate I, 5).

But Cyprian goes even one step further: he not only emphasises the unity of the people of God with its own individual bishop, but also adds that no one should imagine that he can be in communion with just a few, for “the Catholic Church is not split or divided” but “united and held together by the glue of the mutual cohesion of the bishops” (Ep. 66,8)... This collegiality is of course not limited to the horizontal and synchronic relationship with contemporary episcopal colleagues; since the Church is one and the same in all centuries, the present-day church must also maintain diachronic consensus with the episcopate of the centuries before us, and above all with the testimony of the apostles. This is the more profound significance of the apostolic succession in episcopal office.

The episcopal office is thus an office of unity in a two-fold sense. Bishops are the sign and the instrument of unity within the individual local church, just as they are between both the contemporary local Churches and those of all times within the universal Church.

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/206069?eng=y
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