OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 24, 2014, 04:16:16 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Female obedience to Men  (Read 4570 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« on: March 10, 2009, 12:54:47 PM »

Do you think it is important for Christian women to obey their husbands (or their fathers if they don't have a husband)? At what age is an unmarried female permitted to disregard her father's wishes/preferences(i.e. hair length/styles etc)? If she does so, is it a sin? Are we more bound to obey our spiritual father than our natural father?
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2009, 02:24:33 PM »

Do you think it is important for Christian women to obey their husbands (or their fathers if they don't have a husband)?
Yes.
Quote
At what age is an unmarried female permitted to disregard her father's wishes/preferences(i.e. hair length/styles etc)?
Disregard?  Never. (Goes for sons too, btw).
Now, choosing something else is a different story, once you are of age.
Quote
If she does so, is it a sin?
Could be.
Quote
Are we more bound to obey our spiritual father than our natural father?
Comparable.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 02:25:01 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2009, 03:36:46 PM »

OK- I am new to Orthodoxy so my opinion is that-an opinion.

In an ideal world girls would grow into womenhood and have good fathers that protect, care for them and desire the best for them. But we don't live in an ideal world. Many fathers are anything but protective, caring and loving (Both my step and biological fathers are a good example of that lack but I won't go into it). In that case to obey your earthly father would be disobeying the laws of God. Then respect needs to be emphasized. Even if your father does not wish the best for you, you have to maintain a level of respect for them as your father. And in that case the authority of your spiritual father must be more closely paid attention to.

Both my fathers would rather I wasn't Orthodox and if they could, would demand I go back to attending a Pentacostal church. It is a little different for me since I am married and my husband desires to be Orthodox. But the principal is similar to my mind. Your father might not even be a Christian at all, in which case you can't decide to be an atheist in order to please him. Everything needs to be approached in prayer. And from my own life experience- there is always room to respect and honor your parents more. But that doesn't mean that you have to OBEY them-do what they want you to do as an adult.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 03:40:44 PM by Quinault » Logged
si2008
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 96


« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2009, 04:23:59 PM »

What if some of the female martyrs hadn't "disregarded" their fathers' wishes for them to marry pagans, be pagans, eat food sacrificed to idols, etc?  What if they had just obeyed and been good girls?  They would be lost to memory and wouldn't have been witnesses.

Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 04:29:13 PM »

Do you think it is important for Christian women to obey their husbands (or their fathers if they don't have a husband)?
Yes.

So your wife is perfectly obedient to you in your happy marriage?
Logged
Jonathan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 810


WWW
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2009, 04:34:31 PM »

What if some of the female martyrs hadn't "disregarded" their fathers' wishes for them to marry pagans, be pagans, eat food sacrificed to idols, etc?  What if they had just obeyed and been good girls?  They would be lost to memory and wouldn't have been witnesses.



Obedience to earthly powers is always conditional on the higher calling of obedience to God. So we must obey our spiritual fathers if we've placed ourselves in obedience to them. But if they ask us to sin, it would be a sin to obey. We're called to obey IN THE LORD, not just to obey.

Marriage is a calling from God, as is monasticism, as is martyrdom. So if God calls us to these, we must obey him above earthly powers. Of course this does not mean following our own will and using God as an excuse, and it is always best to have the guidance of a father in confession to discern God's will.

None of this takes away from the need to obey if it is not contrary to God's will, or not a matter of calling. If my wife tells me to pick up one thing and not another at the grocery store, and insists that's what she wants to have, and I pick up what I want instead I am less than perfect. If my priest tells me to pray 3 Psalms each morning and I pray 6 because I feel that he doesn't know what I'm able to do, I am definitely sinning against obedience. If he tells me not to pray, or to break the law by falsifying church financial records, then it is a sin to obey because it means disobeying God by breaking His commandments.
Logged
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2009, 04:46:36 PM »

Do you think it is important for Christian women to obey their husbands (or their fathers if they don't have a husband)?
No, I don't care about this at all.

Quote
At what age is an unmarried female permitted to disregard her father's wishes/preferences(i.e. hair length/styles etc)? If she does so, is it a sin?
I'd say about the time she leaves home. Until then, I'd rather my daughter do as I say, not because I want to control her, but because I don't want her to get hurt. I know enough about teenagers to know they can get themselves in a lot of trouble before they finally think things through.

Quote
Are we more bound to obey our spiritual father than our natural father?
I'd say that both ought to be looking out for us rather than forcing us to do what's right. We should obey those in authority who have our best interests at heart, not out of obligation but because we value their advice.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
Starlight
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA (Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Posts: 1,537


« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2009, 04:50:38 PM »

It should be equal mutual respect, not an obedience.

Quinault and si2008, excellent points! I totally agree with you. In most cases, opinions should be mutually respected and regularly taken into consideration, but not necessarily followed.

I am not married, but if it will ever happen, I will strive to have a mutually supportive relationship, not a slave obedient to me. As for obedience for children, the modern conditions evolved and became much more diverse and heterogeneous many decades ago. Upbringing strategies should not include this term "obedience" at all. In relation to interpersonal relationships, the O-word should be simply deleted from 2009 vocabulary.

Now disrespect, abuse and negligence are sins.
Logged
Starlight
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA (Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Posts: 1,537


« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2009, 05:00:17 PM »

Until then, I'd rather my daughter do as I say, not because I want to control her, but because I don't want her to get hurt. I know enough about teenagers to know they can get themselves in a lot of trouble before they finally think things through.

When you look from the point of care, it is a different story, and it is understandable and commendable. It shows your kindness to your children.



I'd say that both ought to be looking out for us rather than forcing us to do what's right.

Precisely. Looking out for someone rather than forcing.

Jonathan, yes, our actions should not contradict Lord's commandments and in fact, accommodate Lord's commandments as much as possible.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 05:09:30 PM by Starlight » Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2009, 05:09:24 PM »

^^Fully agree with Ytterbiumanalyst and Starlight above.

I never expected my wife to "obey" me. I think no sane person should. I love her. She loves me. We do everything together as two loving equal partners.

As for children (equally girls and boys), they should listen to their parents as long as they are children (i.e. until the age of ~18) (although in reality they almost never do  Shocked). After that, they certainly should respect, honor their parents, but they are completely free to choose by themselves what to do.
Logged

Love never fails.
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2009, 06:01:40 PM »

"Obeying" my husband is a separate issue from being in submission to him. I am in submission to my husband. But he has the great weight of being the head of the family. For us it means that when the rubber hits the road and we disagree on something that I will respect his wishes (if they do not violate my own conscience or faith) and allow him the "deciding voice." Marriage can't be a democracy where everyone has an "equal vote" or where you take turns leading for terms/issues. That leads to resentment and a stalemate when you have diverging opinions.

My husband is the head of our household. I would not have married him if I didn't think he was capable of filling that role well. Has this meant that we have done things I disagreed with? Maybe a handful of times in 13 years. My husband doesn't take his role as head of the house as a license to do whatever he wants. He takes the role seriously and if I disagree it is him it is his responsibilty to find out why and discuss it with me rather than issuing an "edict."
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 06:08:10 PM by Quinault » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2009, 06:10:06 PM »

Do you think it is important for Christian women to obey their husbands (or their fathers if they don't have a husband)?
Yes.

So your wife is perfectly obedient to you in your happy marriage?

LOL.  No, she wasn't obedient at all, in our miserable marriage.  A confidant of hers, a year before she left, told me that if I was more of a posterior oriface, the marriage would have a chance.  I said no, she would have to go elsewhere to be abused in the manner she was accustomed to.  And she did: she left for an old boyfriend who that last time she saw him before was beating his wife in public, and her present one, when my ex wouldn't obey him, according to the police reports etc., beats her, punches her, chokes her, butts her head, and bites her face and then threatens to kill her (and the kids) at knifepoint.  Btw, her "significant others" have all been anti-christian and anti-Church.  Too modern and sophisticated for that.

The problem was that she wanted to control everything, but mangage nothing.  Nothing has changed since the divorce: she has tried to make me absolutely unable to get healthcare for the children, but will not take them (they both have serious health issues).  DCFS has been called by the doctors, and she has an indicated report for child neglect against her.  Another report is not indicated, specifically stated "father takes care of the children's heatlh care" (leaving out that I am violating court orders when I do so).

This seems to have gone a little on the deep end, so to bring it more to a more superficial, but important level.  Once my wife cut her hair very short (an original question of the OP).  Not being as lavish enough in my praise of the cut, she berated me about "everybody loves my hair," and proceeded to berate me for being "abnormal."  "You're not married to everyone.  You are married to me," I responed.  Meanwhile, she would berate me for dressing the way she liked, shaving as often as she liked, having my hair cut like she liked, etc. "You are only doing it to please me," she ranted. As you can see, I was quite the abusive husband.


So when she tried to come crying back, no, I said, no thank you.  Had enough.  Don't need to be treated as an alien in my own house, an intruder in my children's lives (the children have a radically different opinion than mom on this matter), nor a married man in a marriage with a single woman.

OK- I am new to Orthodoxy so my opinion is that-an opinion.

In an ideal world girls would grow into womenhood and have good fathers that protect, care for them and desire the best for them. But we don't live in an ideal world. Many fathers are anything but protective, caring and loving (Both my step and biological fathers are a good example of that lack but I won't go into it). In that case to obey your earthly father would be disobeying the laws of God. Then respect needs to be emphasized. Even if your father does not wish the best for you, you have to maintain a level of respect for them as your father. And in that case the authority of your spiritual father must be more closely paid attention to.

Both my fathers would rather I wasn't Orthodox and if they could, would demand I go back to attending a Pentacostal church. It is a little different for me since I am married and my husband desires to be Orthodox. But the principal is similar to my mind. Your father might not even be a Christian at all, in which case you can't decide to be an atheist in order to please him. Everything needs to be approached in prayer. And from my own life experience- there is always room to respect and honor your parents more. But that doesn't mean that you have to OBEY them-do what they want you to do as an adult.

I'm not so new to Orthodoxy, but I would say your opinion is right on and exactly said.

"Obeying" my husband is a separate issue from being in submission to him. I am in submission to my husband. But he has the great weight of being the head of the family. For us it means that when the rubber hits the road and we disagree on something that I will respect his wishes (if they do not violate my own conscience or faith) and allow him the "deciding voice." Marriage can't be a democracy where everyone has an "equal vote" or where you take turns leading for terms/issues. That leads to resentment and a stalemate when you have diverging opinions.

My husband is the head of our household. I would not have married him if I didn't think he was capable of filling that role well. Has this meant that we have done things I disagreed with? Maybe a handful of times in 13 years. My husband doesn't take his role as head of the house as a license to do whatever he wants. He takes the role seriously and if I disagree it is him it is his responsibilty to find out why and discuss it with me rather than issuing an "edict."

Wisely said again (and you too, Starlight, Jonathan, si2008, and Mr. Y).
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 06:22:10 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2009, 06:13:22 PM »

Interestingly most of the time that my husband and I have disagreed it has been over how I take care of myself. I tend to not take care of myself very well. So my husband has literally ORDERED me to slow down and rest on several occasions. He has "kicked me out of the house" and sent me to the book store or coffee shop to relax without the kids on a few occasions when I completely disagreed with the idea. This isn't to brag on my husband (although I do think he is awesome). But in the cases where he was trying to make me take care of myself it was not a light issue. I really didn't want to do it and he "pulled headship" to get me to do it. Headship/submission is supposed to be for the protection of the wife and family, not to "get what you want."
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 06:25:01 PM by Quinault » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2009, 06:21:27 PM »

Interestingly most of the time that my husband and I have disagreed it has been over how I take care of myself. I tend to not take care of myself very well. So my husband has literally ORDERED me to slow down and rest on several occasions. He has "kicked me out of the house" and sent me to the book store or coffee shop to relax without the kids on a few occasions when I completely disagreed with the idea.

This is the type of obedience I was talking about (since my ex has generalized anxiety, it contributed to our problems).  I believe it has something to do with the difference between man and woman at looking at problems and solving them.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 06:24:56 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2009, 06:23:19 PM »

Marriage can't be a democracy where everyone has an "equal vote" or where you take turns leading for terms/issues. That leads to resentment and a stalemate when you have diverging opinions.

I was never able to understand, why are people saying that...  Huh
Logged

Love never fails.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2009, 06:26:17 PM »

Marriage can't be a democracy where everyone has an "equal vote" or where you take turns leading for terms/issues. That leads to resentment and a stalemate when you have diverging opinions.

I was never able to understand, why are people saying that...  Huh

You don't understand why they say marriage is a democracy, or why they say it isn't.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2009, 06:28:03 PM »

Marriage can't be a democracy where everyone has an "equal vote" or where you take turns leading for terms/issues. That leads to resentment and a stalemate when you have diverging opinions.

I was never able to understand, why are people saying that...  Huh

You don't understand why they say marriage is a democracy, or why they say it isn't.

Why it isn't, and why there can be no equal vote etc.
Logged

Love never fails.
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2009, 06:34:29 PM »

Because one vote against one vote is a stalemate. Of course you can (and should) discuss things to come to an agreement. But if after a lot of discussion you can't come to an agreement then at some point a decision has to be made and proceeded with. I which case one person's "vote" has more weight than the other's. So who has the vote with more weight? Is it based on issues-she has finances, you have home improvement?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 06:36:37 PM by Quinault » Logged
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2009, 06:38:20 PM »

You can't decide to "agree to disagree" on every issue you disagree on.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 06:39:39 PM by Quinault » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2009, 06:39:36 PM »

Marriage can't be a democracy where everyone has an "equal vote" or where you take turns leading for terms/issues. That leads to resentment and a stalemate when you have diverging opinions.

I was never able to understand, why are people saying that...  Huh

You don't understand why they say marriage is a democracy, or why they say it isn't.

Why it isn't, and why there can be no equal vote etc.

well, that might be hard to discuss: I've seen successful marriages but was not in one, you evidently are in a successful marriage but I'm sure you have seen those that would resemble mine.

It would depend on how evenly you are yoked.  In Persian, spouse is "hamsar" "same-head," the idea being same thinking.  You can be different, if the differences compliment, rather than clash.  I guess, if it is an issue that there is no equal vote, having the equal vote would lead to nothing but fighting; and if an equal vote would lead to harmony, it is superfluous.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2009, 06:44:35 PM »

You can't decide to "agree to disagree" on every issue you disagree on.

But there is no need to; one of the two just has to give, to yield, and sometimes it's the wife, and on other occasions it's the husband.
Logged

Love never fails.
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2009, 06:50:53 PM »

You can't decide to "agree to disagree" on every issue you disagree on.

But there is no need to; one of the two just has to give, to yield, and sometimes it's the wife, and on other occasions it's the husband.

But then comes the resentment when one person ends up being the one that has to yield more (even if it is unspoken). There is never "even" yielding in those situations. Often the husband ends up having to yield more in these situations because men in general avoid conflict and women in general tend to become more emotional about disagreements. Yielding simply because you "want peace" isn't a good thing to my mind. I saw my parents doing this firsthand and saw how ineffective it was. Whoever ends up yielding more is de facto in submission no matter how you try to dress it up.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 06:52:13 PM by Quinault » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2009, 06:52:57 PM »

You can't decide to "agree to disagree" on every issue you disagree on.

But there is no need to; one of the two just has to give, to yield, and sometimes it's the wife, and on other occasions it's the husband.

But then comes the resentment when one person ends up being the one that has to yield more (even if it is unspoken). There is never "even" yielding in those situations. Often the husband ends up having to yield more in these situations because men in general avoid conflict and women in general tend to become more emotional about disagreements. Yielding simply because you "want peace" isn't a good thing to my mind. I saw my parents doing this firsthand and saw how ineffective it was. Whoever ends up yielding more is de facto in submission no matter how you try to dress it up.

You were wise.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Bogoliubtsy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,268



« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2009, 06:56:35 PM »

Soon to be married here, so my position may not count. I have, however, never encountered a situation where I had to "put my foot down" or where we reached a point where one of us had to exert will to the serious neglect of the others position. It just hasn't happened, and hope it doesn't. I can't see myself in a relationship where I would have the right to have the "final say". Quite frankly, I wouldn't want to be with a woman who would allow herself to be in "submission" to me. Not my bag.

Who knows though- time has a way of changing things.  Smiley
Logged

"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2009, 07:00:02 PM »

And (also from watching my parents and personal experience) when the husband ends up yielding more often just to have peace the wife ends up losing a lot of respect for her husband. She knows how to push his buttons and control him. I think (again an opinion, not one based upon Orthodoxy) that women desire to both lead and be led. We want control, but when we are given too much we look down on our husbands for giving it and secretly think he is "whipped." So there is always this inner struggle as a woman. We want to rule over our husbands, but when we do, it makes us start to hate our husbands. There is a Psalm that talks about this, but I can't remember it off the top of my head at the moment.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 07:03:56 PM by Quinault » Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2009, 07:07:28 PM »

You can't decide to "agree to disagree" on every issue you disagree on.

But there is no need to; one of the two just has to give, to yield, and sometimes it's the wife, and on other occasions it's the husband.

But then comes the resentment when one person ends up being the one that has to yield more (even if it is unspoken). There is never "even" yielding in those situations. Often the husband ends up having to yield more in these situations because men in general avoid conflict and women in general tend to become more emotional about disagreements. Yielding simply because you "want peace" isn't a good thing to my mind. I saw my parents doing this firsthand and saw how ineffective it was. Whoever ends up yielding more is de facto in submission no matter how you try to dress it up.

I agree that yielding simply "because you want peace" does not solve anything. But usually one of the two sides, if only they both have patience, can see something positive in the other side's opinion. In my marriage, it has always worked like this. The point is, however, it should not necessarily be the woman who yields, it can very well be the man.
Logged

Love never fails.
Carole
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic (ish)
Posts: 271


« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2009, 07:11:26 PM »

"Obeying" my husband is a separate issue from being in submission to him. I am in submission to my husband. But he has the great weight of being the head of the family. For us it means that when the rubber hits the road and we disagree on something that I will respect his wishes (if they do not violate my own conscience or faith) and allow him the "deciding voice." Marriage can't be a democracy where everyone has an "equal vote" or where you take turns leading for terms/issues. That leads to resentment and a stalemate when you have diverging opinions.

My husband is the head of our household. I would not have married him if I didn't think he was capable of filling that role well. Has this meant that we have done things I disagreed with? Maybe a handful of times in 13 years. My husband doesn't take his role as head of the house as a license to do whatever he wants. He takes the role seriously and if I disagree it is him it is his responsibilty to find out why and discuss it with me rather than issuing an "edict."

FWIW - My personal views are much the same and Quinault's.  As, oddly, is my experience with doing things this way.  I was not always one who believed in the idea of submission to one's husband (as an atheist there was little reason for this belief).  We had more difficulties than not in trying to have a "50/50 partnership" at all times.  Two, stubborn, strong-willed people with a tendency toward obstinacy both trying to have an "equal" say made for some really horrible arguments and a lot of resentment.

When I feel annoyed at the idea of submission to my husband I simply remember that the letter to the Ephesians does not stop at the wife's responsibility to submit to her husband as the head - it lays some pretty stiff demands on him as well.  He has to love me as Christ loved the Church.  I have to offer him respect and submission as the head of the household.  That's easy in comparison to what is demanded of him.  It is true - from those to whom much is given much is expected in return.
Logged

Carole
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2009, 07:13:13 PM »

You can't decide to "agree to disagree" on every issue you disagree on.

But there is no need to; one of the two just has to give, to yield, and sometimes it's the wife, and on other occasions it's the husband.

But then comes the resentment when one person ends up being the one that has to yield more (even if it is unspoken). There is never "even" yielding in those situations. Often the husband ends up having to yield more in these situations because men in general avoid conflict and women in general tend to become more emotional about disagreements. Yielding simply because you "want peace" isn't a good thing to my mind. I saw my parents doing this firsthand and saw how ineffective it was. Whoever ends up yielding more is de facto in submission no matter how you try to dress it up.

I agree that yielding simply "because you want peace" does not solve anything. But usually one of the two sides, if only they both have patience, can see something positive in the other side's opinion. In my marriage, it has always worked like this. The point is, however, it should not necessarily be the woman who yields, it can very well be the man.

I have never said a man can't yield. If in discussion you decide to follow the other person's leading because of "x" reason that is good. But if you just arbitrarily wait for one person to yield you will end up with resentment. There has to be a period at the end of a sentence. At some point the discussion has to come to an end even if you both disagree. And having a filibuster argument in marriage is unhealthy.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 07:16:08 PM by Quinault » Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2009, 08:14:20 PM »

This isn't to brag on my husband (although I do think he is awesome).

This was such a pleasure to read!  Smiley
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2009, 08:18:32 PM »

And I would say that even if he wasn't gone right now! LOL

Although my appreciation for him does grow a great deal when he is gone! laugh

« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 08:44:40 PM by Quinault » Logged
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,990


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2009, 09:06:18 PM »

 Dear sister,

These are all really great, yet somewhat delicate, questions.

Do you think it is important for Christian women to obey their husbands
The Holy Traditions teach us that the answer is 'yes'.  But we should remember that a Christian husband is to die to (and even for) his wife.  He is to approach her as a treasure and, as such, always be mindful of this gift from God.  He should always be patient with her and never reproach her in front of others.  As best as he can, a husband should overlook his wife's faults because, he too, will have many.  If a husband always approaches his wife with love and patience, he will never demand she behave in ways that are detrimental for her.  The overarching approach should always be love for if you truly love someone, you will always have the others' needs and interests in mind.

(or their fathers if they don't have a husband)? At what age is an unmarried female permitted to disregard her father's wishes/preferences(i.e. hair length/styles etc)? If she does so, is it a sin?
Holy Scripture tells us we are to honor our parents.  But I feel this has a double meaning.  If our parents ask us to do something that violates our Christian teaching, we will not be honoring them by honoring the request.  We cannot 'go along to get along' if you understand me.  This is not true honor or love and may indeed be sinful to honor all requests.  As far as the age limit goes as to when a child is 'permitted' to disregard their father's wishes, I think again, it goes back to spiritual discernment.  But one definite qualification is if the child has moved out of the parents' home.     

Are we more bound to obey our spiritual father than our natural father?
My inclination would be to say 'probably so'.  But, I also want to say that family dynamics are often complex matters and no one answer is good for all families and all situations.  Definitely one should always seek his/her spiritual father's counsel, but this is often just that...counsel.

 Really, the answer to all of these great questions should definitely be put to prayer as well as your spiritual father.  Of coarse, alongside Holy Scripture, our Saints have much to say on these topics.

 
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Jonathan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 810


WWW
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2009, 09:37:49 PM »

Obedience is the first virtue. Without it we cannot attain to any of the others.

Marriage is a way of salvation. It is practice for marriage to Christ. We should be learning to surrender our own will out of love for our spouse as a step towards learning to submit to God.

Obedience goes both ways, it is not a dictatorship. The wife must submit to the husband as to Christ. But the husband must love the wife as Christ loves the Church. This mutual love is a type of the love between Christ and His Church. This means that the husband is called to love his wife even if she does not act in a lovable way, just as Christ sought us when we hated Him. The husband is like the priest of the house. But a good priest is not a dictator, he is a servant rather than a master. The priest has authority to guide us to what is right, but never to compel us to do it. In the same way a husband should not leave his wife and family to their own desires, but guide them lovingly as a servant to them to support them in their journey towards Christ. This is nothing like male dominance. If done right it should be male subjection as he gives up his own will to serve and lead his family according to God's will.

During marriage prep my wife told me that she expects me to be strong and to correct her if she strays, especially with raising children in the faith, and that if I am weak and hide behind the excuse of equality to escape my spiritual duty that I would not be a worthy husband. She clearly understands the roles of husband and wife in the Orthodox mystery of marriage.

My priest pointed out that the wife has it easier. She is commanded to submit but the husband is called to love. The husband should move first and the wife respond as Christ moves first to love us and we respond to Him.

It is not that my wife and I are not equal, or that I boss her around. We are equal, there is no male or female in Christ. But our roles are different, and we both respect that. All decisions are made with discussion, not by me saying I'm lord and this is how it is. But ultimately it is the husband who is spiritually responsible for the family as the priest is for his parish, and this role as a servant-leader necessitates making final decisions on some issues. Of course if I were to put my foot down and insist on something sinful, my wife would be bound by duty to God to refuse, and we would have to go to our spiritual father for resolution. I am very fortunate to have a wife who pushes me and will not let me get away with slacking and taking the easier, broad way of the world.
Logged
si2008
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 96


« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2009, 11:04:58 AM »

Both the husband and the wife have challenges in marriage, Jonathan.  It is in a woman's best interest to die to her inclination to control her husband because it leads to her salvation; and it's in the husband's best interest to die to himself and love her as Christ loves the church.  God knows what our besetting sins are, and if He calls us to marriage it's because He knows we can be remolded in this sacrament.  Women have awesome responsibilities as well.  I commend your commitment to a traditional marriage, but I have been witness to many marriages where the wife had to lead the spiritual life of the family/children because the man wasn't religious or committed to being the head of the household. 
Logged
Douglas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 608


« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2009, 11:53:17 AM »

Do you think it is important for Christian women to obey their husbands (or their fathers if they don't have a husband)? At what age is an unmarried female permitted to disregard her father's wishes/preferences(i.e. hair length/styles etc)? If she does so, is it a sin? Are we more bound to obey our spiritual father than our natural father?

Interesting questions. I have two daughters (both are now married) and a son (also married)... so I can at least speak with some experience in these things. The word obey is a bit loaded because you can't really separate it from the rest of St Paul's injunctions. He also commands husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the Church... sacrificially. So... as a husband I would not ask my wife to do something that she was opposed to doing (as long as it was a moral decision) and thus her "obedience" to me is a two-way street. We make our decisions in harmony with one another, through mutual respect and discussion of whatever decisions need to be made.

As for my daughter's and their hairstyle... I never imposed my will on them in terms of hair style, length of hair, clothing (provided the clothing was not immoral), music and so forth. When they were very young (pre-teen) my wife and I did insist upon certain things but as they grew into independent young women, we gave them their freedom to make decisions. Granted... there were curfews which had to be observed and we insisted that their freedom did not encroach upon ours (i.e. their music had to be low enough that it did not interfere with our freedom to enjoy our music).

It would seem to me that if your father and spiritual father are at odds with one another, then it is imperative that they get together and discuss their differences. If there is still a difference of opinion and it relates to your spiritual direction, then I would say to follow your spiritual father's advice. In all other matters... it would seem to me best to follow your father's direction. I would also think that a spiritual father would not want to intrude into a family's relationship with one another.
Logged

Douglas no longer posts on the forum.
zoarthegleaner
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 398



« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2009, 01:32:19 PM »

It would depend on how evenly you are yoked.  ialmisry

This is a wise and pastorial answer and is applicable to most of marriage issues.  This is also a just reason for the practice of arrainged marriages.   

Abraham sent his servant to find a bride for Isaac, note the prayer and requirements therein by the Servant unto God to enable him to fulfill his Master's desire.  He wanted her to be full of hospitality and care for strangers even their animals?  Why?  Was this not also Abraham's and Sarah's personality?

Marriages fail because one or both parties fail to be yoked together, and for us who would be Orthodox, they fail because one or both parties fail to be yoked together for Christ's Glorification.  Marriage is a Sacrament of Christ wherein two become one flesh even as we become one flesh with our Lord.  When the aim is moved, the aim still remains true to itself, and you hit what your aiming for...
Logged

Courteous is my name,
and I have always aimed to live up to it.
Grace is also my name,
but when things go wrong
its Courteous whom I blame;
but its Grace who sees me through it.
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2009, 03:51:38 PM »

And (also from watching my parents and personal experience) when the husband ends up yielding more often just to have peace the wife ends up losing a lot of respect for her husband. She knows how to push his buttons and control him. I think (again an opinion, not one based upon Orthodoxy) that women desire to both lead and be led. We want control, but when we are given too much we look down on our husbands for giving it and secretly think he is "whipped." So there is always this inner struggle as a woman. We want to rule over our husbands, but when we do, it makes us start to hate our husbands. There is a Psalm that talks about this, but I can't remember it off the top of my head at the moment.

Talked about this with my wife yesterday: she denies that this applies to her... Smiley Says she never had any desire to rule or to be ruled - not in the slightest. She just wants us all to be happy, absolutely reardless of who makes what decision or who yields.
Logged

Love never fails.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.133 seconds with 62 queries.