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Author Topic: Should Kosmodemyanskaya become Saint Zoya?  (Read 23611 times) Average Rating: 0
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Starlight
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« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2009, 08:54:30 PM »

As for the original question, I am another one to vote "absolutely not". A possible Orthodox background of her ancestors can not be a reason for her canonization.
Orthodox background of her ancestors is not possibe, but proven. And the reason for canonization is not her descendance from the long line of priests, but her heroic martyrdom.

But there is no evidence that she was killed for being a Christian; all evidence points to her being killed for her political allegiance to the USSR.  

Precisely. Therefore, her canonization for martyrdom cannot be considered by the Orthodox Church.

Simkins, please also provide your answer to Ialmisry's question:


Btw, what you think of Marx?  Lenin?


Furthermore, Zoya violated orders and did not return to the base of rebels
Because she was captured by the enemy.

and by doing so, she endangered others. 
As is well known she did not endenger anyone, did not give any information and took all torture herself.

Initially, Zoya ignored the orders and did not return to the base. Then she was captured. Moreover, from a military point of view, instead of providing attacks at Nazi soldiers, making explosions, etc., Zoya just kept setting homes of local Russian peasants in fire. Yes, Nazis were staying in those homes. But Nazis could just run away, however local residents were loosing all their property in a winter time. Who could assist these poor farmers, victims of arsons, in the midst of cold Russian winter? Does this behavior come anywhere close to the actions of the Saint?

Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya's last words were: "Stalin will come!"
Did not appear in the protocols of first questioning of the witnesses.
Or it could be edited in 1960s.

Also, back in late 1980s Moscow-based newspaper Argumenty i fakty (Arguments and Facts) presented allegations about her treatment in a mental hospital prior to World War II.
She was treated for meningitis.

According to Argumenty i fakty, Ms. Kosmodemyanskaya had been registered as a person with psychiatric problems in one of the mental institutions. It has been a general practice to do so in USSR.

I didn't realize that people got to "choose" whom they wanted to see canonized.

Бог есть синтетическая личность всего народа --Достоевский

No, God is our Creator and our Redeemer. We cannot tell God what He should do.



And the miracle did occur. The Germans ran all the way back to Berlin, after they already celebrated their victory.

Are you implying that Nazis were defeated because of intercession of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya???


But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.
No, it is true. As Heorhij indicated, it was a combined effort of Allied Forces. More then obvious. Everyone played a major role. Every soldier deserved a lot of respect. For the record, Soviet Army was extremely multinational. As a matter of fact, some Russians were fighting against Nazis in other armies including Ukrainian Insurgent Army.

Also, based on your site, on the page where you located pictures of demons,
http://reverent.org/zoya/defamation.html

you identify the destruction of anti-Christian, anti-human, murderous Communist regime as opening of the gates of hell? Not the regime, not its start in 1917, but its end. This is how I read it...
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« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2009, 09:11:46 PM »

But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.
Can you prove this?
In his book "America's retreat from victory" Senator McCarthy wrote that with German defeat at Stalingrad the WWII had ended and WWIII started. All American effort in the war was to save Western Europe from Communism.


That doesn't prove anything.  Can you give us the context for Senator McCarthy's opinion?  You do realize also that this was just one man's opinion, regardless of how much of an authority he may have been?  Opinions don't prove anything; only facts do.

Are you also not aware that the Allies forced Germany to fight World War II on two fronts: Russia to the east and the U.S. led forces to the west?  Only Russian nationalism would blind someone to the fact that the U.S. and Great Britain also played a major role in the defeat of Nazi Germany.  If not for the Allied assault on Germany's western front, Hitler would have been able to commit much more of his armed might to his invasion of Soviet Russia.

I think you're also confusing World War II with the Cold War that followed.  During WWII, the U.S., Great Britain, and the Soviet Union were actually allies.  Only after the war ended in 1945 did the USSR and her Western allies become estranged, thus starting the Cold War that served as the context for most of McCarthy's political career.
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« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2009, 09:16:36 PM »

PeterTheAleut, I totally agree with you and I feel the same way as you do.
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« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2009, 09:19:05 PM »

Also, based on your site, on the page where you located pictures of demons,
http://reverent.org/zoya/defamation.html

you identify the destruction of anti-Christian, anti-human, murderous Communist regime as opening of the gates of hell? Not the regime, not its start in 1917, but its end. This is how I read it...
Yes, indeed!  Why 1991 and not 1917?
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« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2009, 12:34:52 AM »

Initially, Zoya ignored the orders and did not return to the base.
How do you know?

Moreover, from a military point of view, instead of providing attacks at Nazi soldiers, making explosions, etc., Zoya just kept setting homes of local Russian peasants in fire.
She got an assignment to burn the village of Petrischevo.


Yes, Nazis were staying in those homes. But Nazis could just run away, however local residents were loosing all their property in a winter time. Who could assist these poor farmers, victims of arsons, in the midst of cold Russian winter? Does this behavior come anywhere close to the actions of the Saint?
The Germans were also losing housing in winter what reduced their ability to fight. The Germans wanted to completeley destroy Russian state so the Russian government had no choice. In Poland the Germans exterminated almost all of the ruling class ( Szlachta ). I heard that only 3% left. Not sure of the number, but certainly Germans killed order of magnitude   more Szlachta than were killed in Katyn (about which there is so much talk). There was also a systematic campaign to exterminate Polish intelligentsia. The same would happen in Russia. These villagers whome you pretend to represent loved Zoya very much and the women were howling when Zoya was exhumed and taken for cremation.

According to Argumenty i fakty, Ms. Kosmodemyanskaya had been registered as a person with psychiatric problems in one of the mental institutions. It has been a general practice to do so in USSR.
If it was indeed so she would have been never accepted into partisan unit.

This is a part of general de-heroization campaign performed by the people who consider cowardice a virtue and courage a vice. Any heroic person is a reproach to such folks, while all honors they give to successful swindlers. I recall they were getting at Chkalov as well. De-heroization campaign was conducted in America too where people like Charles Lindbergh were defamed. The defamation of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya has nothing to do with anti-communism. It is more along Haendler-Helden lines.

Also, based on your site, on the page where you located pictures of demons,
http://reverent.org/zoya/defamation.html

you identify the destruction of anti-Christian, anti-human, murderous Communist regime as opening of the gates of hell? Not the regime, not its start in 1917, but its end. This is how I read it...
First in 1917, next in 1991. There were more homeless children during 1990s than in 1945.
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« Reply #50 on: March 18, 2009, 12:48:07 AM »

This is a part of general de-heroization campaign performed by the people who consider cowardice a virtue and courage a vice. Any heroic person is a reproach to such folks, while all honors they give to successful swindlers. I recall they were getting at Chkalov as well. De-heroization campaign was conducted in America too where people like Charles Lindbergh were defamed. The defamation of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya has nothing to do with anti-communism. It is more along Haendler-Helden lines.
Call her a war hero if you want.  She may very well deserve the honor, and many times over.  That's not the ultimate thrust of your arguments here, though, and it's not to her glorification as a war hero that many here have voiced their opposition.  You have asked if Kosmodemyanskaya should be glorified as a saint in the Orthodox Church, and you have almost demanded that she be given this honor.  In light of this, I say that her status as a war hero means absolutely nothing if she did not die specifically to bear witness to her Orthodox faith in Jesus Christ, for THIS, and nothing else, is what it truly means to be a martyr.
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« Reply #51 on: March 18, 2009, 03:23:22 AM »

You have asked if Kosmodemyanskaya should be glorified as a saint in the Orthodox Church, and you have almost demanded that she be given this honor.  In light of this, I say that her status as a war hero means absolutely nothing if she did not die specifically to bear witness to her Orthodox faith in Jesus Christ, for THIS, and nothing else, is what it truly means to be a martyr.
Exactly, and thus the answer shoud be NO.
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« Reply #52 on: March 18, 2009, 03:49:54 AM »

Quote
when Zoya was exhumed and taken for cremation.

How very interesting. Show us evidence that the Orthodox Church has ever regarded cremation as an acceptable means of treating the body of one who has died. If Zoya was indeed cremated, then this is another clue that she was not Orthodox.
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« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2009, 05:01:28 AM »

Quote
when Zoya was exhumed and taken for cremation.

How very interesting. Show us evidence that the Orthodox Church has ever regarded cremation as an acceptable means of treating the body of one who has died. If Zoya was indeed cremated, then this is another clue that she was not Orthodox.
She was indeed cremated before being burried at Novodevichie. This is according to memoirs of Klavdia Miloradova, who took part in the procedure. Cremation is of minor concern here, because after that she was burried under a masonic star. But please explain me why you so strongly oppose cremation when, according to your post in another thread, usury is fine with you when not too excessive?
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« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2009, 07:31:34 AM »

Quote
when Zoya was exhumed and taken for cremation.

How very interesting. Show us evidence that the Orthodox Church has ever regarded cremation as an acceptable means of treating the body of one who has died. If Zoya was indeed cremated, then this is another clue that she was not Orthodox.
She was indeed cremated before being burried at Novodevichie. This is according to memoirs of Klavdia Miloradova, who took part in the procedure. Cremation is of minor concern here, because after that she was burried under a masonic star. But please explain me why you so strongly oppose cremation when, according to your post in another thread, usury is fine with you when not too excessive?
Is your complain based on the Gospel or Das Kapital?
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« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2009, 09:35:52 AM »

Why then Allied forces (including Ukrainians) can't do much in Iraq for so long?

Because this war is stupid, misguided from the very start. It has no real grounds other than ambitions and ideology. I feel very ashamed that my fellow Ukrainians even participated in it.

I can give consideration to David Irving's statement that fighting Germany was not in the interest of the British Empire. Indeed Britain lost her empire as a result of the war. Also three sisters of Prince Phillip (the husband of the British Queen, who converted from Orthodox to Anglican  to marry her) were married to gauleiters and SS generals and spent the war in Germany. But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.

Oh, no, that's not a lie. Regardless of whom the British royalty married, the British, Canadian, Australian, and U.S. troops fought very bravely and made their contribution to the final defeat of Germany in 1945. The success of the Soviet Army at Stalingrad would hardly be possible without the Allies capturing Malta, building an air base there and starting the heavy bombardment of strategic targets in Germany and Austria in late 1942. The Allies also took on themselves a huge share of the German military force at El Alamein in northern Africa, further enabling the victory at Stalingrad. They also took Sicily and began operations in Southern Italy in summer 1943, thus helping the Soviet army to gain victory at Kursk. Some of the most brutal fighting of the entire WWII took place there, in Italy. One should not look at military history from just one, isolationist point of view. WWII was indeed a "world" war, a lot of things that happened during it were very seriously influenced by other things taking place in other parts of the globe.

Again, I am not dismissing the role of the Soviet Army in the battles against Hitler. My grandfather, and the two siblings of my grandmother (her older brother and her sister), and my grandmother's brother's wife (a military doctor) fought in its ranks all the way from June 1941 till May 1945. They did a wonderful, holy thing, and covered themselves with glory. Yet, one should not re-write history and claim that ONLY the Soviet Army or ONLY the U.S. or whoever did the whole thing.
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« Reply #56 on: March 18, 2009, 10:56:30 AM »

Lenin: one of the worst monsters ever.

I wonder if Mr. Simkins has read this, and if he has, what is his opinion on this book:

http://lib.ru/PROZA/SOLOUHIN/bylight.txt
Thank you for the link, Heorhij!

You are most welcome, brother. I wish someone would translate this book by Vladimir Soloukhin into English. It is called "In the Light of Day," and it is an attempt to shed some light on who Lenin really was. The thing is, Lenin's image was mythologized, embellished not only by the Soviets but also by many sympathizers of the "left idea" as well of the "Holy Mother Russia idea" in the West. Soloukhin analyzes a lot of archive materials and shows that Lenin was indeed a monster, a biological degenerate (his father is very likely to be simultaneously a son and a brother of Lenin's paternal grandmother), a deeply disturbed and, very likely, demonically possessed creature of the abyss. He is directly guilty in the slaughter of millions of people during the Red Terror, the Civil War, and the infamous "expropriation of treasures of the Church" in 1921-22. During his rule and under his direct supervision, Russia forever lost its entire nobility, intelligentsia, the merchant class, and most of its clergy and productive peasantry. And this devil's mummy still lies in its pagan "mausoleum" right next to the Kremlin wall on the Red Square.
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« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2009, 05:55:27 PM »

Yes there is something special about her body two month after her death

Simkins, you are suggesting that Zoya's body is "incorrupt", and therefore further "proof" that she is a "saint". Have you forgotten the severity of the winter that year? The same "General Winter" which decimated the retreating Nazi troops? Not much chance of decomposition. Your defence of Zoya is getting increasingly sillier.
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« Reply #58 on: March 18, 2009, 06:14:05 PM »

The Germans were also losing housing in winter what reduced their ability to fight. The Germans wanted to completeley destroy Russian state so the Russian government had no choice. In Poland the Germans exterminated almost all of the ruling class ( Szlachta ). I heard that only 3% left. Not sure of the number, but certainly Germans killed order of magnitude   more Szlachta than were killed in Katyn (about which there is so much talk). There was also a systematic campaign to exterminate Polish intelligentsia. The same would happen in Russia. These villagers whome you pretend to represent loved Zoya very much and the women were howling when Zoya was exhumed and taken for cremation.

Please, "szlachta" disappeared in XVIII/XIXth century. Nazis and Soviets were killing doctors, pedagogues, priests, officers, politicians but not "szlachta".
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« Reply #59 on: March 18, 2009, 10:35:00 PM »

Is your complain based on the Gospel or Das Kapital?
Händler und Helden
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« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2009, 11:49:24 PM »

Yes there is something special about her body two month after her death

Simkins, you are suggesting that Zoya's body is "incorrupt", and therefore further "proof" that she is a "saint". Have you forgotten the severity of the winter that year? The same "General Winter" which decimated the retreating Nazi troops? Not much chance of decomposition. Your defence of Zoya is getting increasingly sillier.
There is much more in Zoya's body than the lack of decay. The look of her face.

In his idiotic book Dostoevsky discussed the painting of dead Christ by Hans Holbein  (can see it here: http://nearyou.ru/holbein/21body.html ). Prince Myshkin (idiot) said that people can lose their faith after looking at such a painting. From another hand side this is a realistic painting of a  man who died after being tortured. After  I found  the picture of Zoya that I posted earlier in this thread I realized that Christ did not look like Holbein's blasphemy. He must have looked like his bride Zoya. Otherwise indeed Christ's pupils would have lost their faith.

You call me silly but your arguments have nothing to do with religion and look more like accounting. Those who you suggest as saints instead of Zoya do not inspire. There is no passion in them. You know how Mel Gibson' film was titled? "The passion of the Christ". There was a long series of passions before that. "Johannes Passion" by J.C. Bach is probably the most famous.
I think that the words "auch in der grössten Niedrigkeit verherrlich worden bist" (triumph in the deapest humiliation) are about Zoya as well



The Germans look so sour in this picture because of the cold you suggest?

The words  "conquered death by death" (смертию смерть поправ) from Pravoslavny Easter service can also be spoken about Zoya.
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« Reply #61 on: March 18, 2009, 11:56:46 PM »

Yes there is something special about her body two month after her death

Simkins, you are suggesting that Zoya's body is "incorrupt", and therefore further "proof" that she is a "saint". Have you forgotten the severity of the winter that year? The same "General Winter" which decimated the retreating Nazi troops? Not much chance of decomposition. Your defence of Zoya is getting increasingly sillier.
There is much more in Zoya's body than the lack of decay. The look of her face.

In his idiotic book Dostoevsky discussed the painting of dead Christ by Hans Holbein  (can see it here: http://nearyou.ru/holbein/21body.html ). Prince Myshkin (idiot) said that people can lose their faith after looking at such a painting. From another hand side this is a realistic painting of a  man who died after being tortured. After  I found  the picture of Zoya that I posted earlier in this thread I realized that Christ did not look like Holbein's blasphemy. He must have looked like his bride Zoya.
One, it's "His."

Two, you get on saying His bride, yet we haven't seen any evidence of a marriage.

Quote
Otherwise indeed Christ's pupils would have lost their faith.

You call me silly but your arguments have nothing to do with religion and look more like accounting. Those who you suggest as saints instead of Zoya do not inspire. There is no passion in them. You know how Mel Gibson' film was titled? "The passion of the Christ". There was a long series of passions before that. "Johannes Passion" by J.C. Bach is probably the most famous.
I think that the words "auch in der grössten Niedrigkeit verherrlich worden bist" (triumph in the deapest humiliation) are about Zoya as well



The Germans look so sour in this picture because of the cold you suggest?

The words  "conquered death by death" (смертию смерть поправ) from Pravoslavny Easter service can also be spoken about Zoya.
She's dead.
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« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2009, 12:15:20 AM »




The Germans look so sour in this picture because of the cold you suggest?

The words  "conquered death by death" (смертию смерть поправ) from Pravoslavny Easter service can also be spoken about Zoya.

The Germans are likely exhausted, hungry, cold, stressed, etc. from the war they are fighting in, did you really expect them to be smiling and skipping to the gallows with her?
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« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2009, 12:37:51 AM »

Quote
when Zoya was exhumed and taken for cremation.

How very interesting. Show us evidence that the Orthodox Church has ever regarded cremation as an acceptable means of treating the body of one who has died. If Zoya was indeed cremated, then this is another clue that she was not Orthodox.
She was indeed cremated before being burried at Novodevichie. This is according to memoirs of Klavdia Miloradova, who took part in the procedure. Cremation is of minor concern here, because after that she was burried under a masonic star. But please explain me why you so strongly oppose cremation when, according to your post in another thread, usury is fine with you when not too excessive?
What does one have to do with the other?
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« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2009, 12:45:55 AM »

The Germans are likely exhausted, hungry, cold, stressed, etc. from the war they are fighting in, did you really expect them to be smiling and skipping to the gallows with her?
No, they look like losers. Similar expressions I saw on the faces of  people who climbed a bungee tower, but descended down by staircase.
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« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2009, 12:48:39 AM »

You call me silly but your arguments have nothing to do with religion and look more like accounting.
Well, your refusal thus far to tell us whether Kosmodemyanskaya ever died to bear witness to her Orthodox faith makes your arguments out to have nothing to do with religion.  So what's your point?

Those who you suggest as saints instead of Zoya do not inspire. There is no passion in them.
Subjective criteria which, in light of the contrary evidence of the historical record, prove to be totally irrelevant.

You know how Mel Gibson' film was titled? "The passion of the Christ". There was a long series of passions before that. "Johannes Passion" by J.C. Bach is probably the most famous.
I think that the words "auch in der grössten Niedrigkeit verherrlich worden bist" (triumph in the deapest humiliation) are about Zoya as well
But did she die to bear witness to her faith in Jesus Christ?

The words  "conquered death by death" (смертию смерть поправ) from Pravoslavny Easter service can also be spoken about Zoya.
That's nice that you think so, but did she die to bear witness to her faith in Jesus Christ?
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« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2009, 12:51:04 AM »

The Germans are likely exhausted, hungry, cold, stressed, etc. from the war they are fighting in, did you really expect them to be smiling and skipping to the gallows with her?
No, they look like losers.
I suppose they would to those whose agenda requires that the soldiers be seen as looking like losers.
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« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2009, 01:05:42 AM »

Well, your refusal thus far to tell us whether Kosmodemyanskaya ever died to bear witness to her Orthodox faith
Dostoevsky said that God is a sintetic personality of the whole people. Kosmodemyanskaya died for Russian people and, therefore, for Pravoslavny God.
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« Reply #68 on: March 19, 2009, 01:10:08 AM »

I suppose they would to those whose agenda requires that the soldiers be seen as looking like losers.
No. They look like losers to an unbiased observer. I think that if Herr Nebelpfade tried to approach me (http://reverent.org/Pictures/acrofilia_grand_canyon.jpg) he would look the same way. I would really like to talk to him there.
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« Reply #69 on: March 19, 2009, 01:15:05 AM »

Well, your refusal thus far to tell us whether Kosmodemyanskaya ever died to bear witness to her Orthodox faith
Dostoevsky said that God is a sintetic personality of the whole people.
Where did he say this?

Kosmodemyanskaya died for Russian people and, therefore, for Pravoslavny God.
So, being Russian automatically makes one a Christian.  Does that then make Stalin a Christian?  After all, he was Russian.


I suppose they would to those whose agenda requires that the soldiers be seen as looking like losers.
No. They look like losers to an unbiased observer.
And I suppose you're unbiased.

I think that if Herr Nebelpfade tried to approach me (http://reverent.org/Pictures/acrofilia_grand_canyon.jpg) he would look the same way. I would really like to talk to him there.
What's this supposed to mean?
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« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2009, 02:38:33 AM »

One, it's "His."
I didn't correct you for your numerous misspellings.

Two, you get on saying His bride, yet we haven't seen any evidence of a marriage.
Because it did not yet happened.

Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

She's dead.
She is alive.
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« Reply #71 on: March 19, 2009, 03:10:11 AM »

One, it's "His."
I didn't correct you for your numerous misspellings.

Two, you get on saying His bride, yet we haven't seen any evidence of a marriage.
Because it did not yet happened.

Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

She's dead.
She is alive.

This is beyond weird...
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« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2009, 03:42:53 AM »

Dostoevsky said that God is a sintetic personality of the whole people.
Where did he say this?
Besy (Devils/The possesed)

 "The object of every national movement, in every people and at every period of its existence is only the seeking for its god, who must be its own god, and the faith in Him as the only true one. God is the synthetic personality of the whole people, taken from its beginning to its end. It has never happened that all, or even many, peoples have had one common, god, but each has always had its own. It's a sign of the decay of nations when they begin to have gods in common. When gods begin to be common to several nations the gods are dying and the faith in them, together with the nations themselves. The stronger a people the more individual their God."

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext05/8devl10h.htm

So, being Russian automatically makes one a Christian.  Does that then make Stalin a Christian?  After all, he was Russian.
Stalin (Jugashvilli) was a Georgian. He was born in Gori, where there is still a monument to him. You have heard the city name in reports on Ossetia war, but they did not tell Stalin was born there, though it is of much interest to a lay listener. He was Orthodox Christian and studied in a theological seminary, but did not graduate. Stalin restored the office of Partiarch, which was abolished by Pyotr I.
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« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2009, 05:02:35 AM »

Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.
Thank you for revealing your true colors with this statement.  Heresy is too kind a word for such blasphemy as this.
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« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2009, 05:14:49 AM »

Simkins, your posts are getting so ridiculous and out of touch with reality, I'm beginning to enjoy them for their comedy value. I haven't had such a good laugh for ages!  laugh laugh

Quote
Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

And I'll bet you'll be the one conducting the marriage!  Grin

Quote
Stalin restored the office of Partiarch, which was abolished by Pyotr I.

Too funny, too ridiculous for words.

Quote
"The object of every national movement, in every people and at every period of its existence is only the seeking for its god, who must be its own god, and the faith in Him as the only true one. God is the synthetic personality of the whole people, taken from its beginning to its end. It has never happened that all, or even many, peoples have had one common, god, but each has always had its own. It's a sign of the decay of nations when they begin to have gods in common. When gods begin to be common to several nations the gods are dying and the faith in them, together with the nations themselves. The stronger a people the more individual their God."

I see. So the words of a fictional character in a Dostoyevsky novel have the same importance as those of the Fathers of the Orthodox Church. I must stop laughing, I'm making a mess of my computer screen.

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« Reply #75 on: March 19, 2009, 05:26:33 AM »

Quote
Stalin restored the office of Partiarch, which was abolished by Pyotr I.

Too funny, too ridiculous for words.


http://rutube.ru/tracks/737762.html?v=c3c023f088833f25c6bfa4ebf0fb6e01
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« Reply #76 on: March 19, 2009, 05:34:52 AM »

Quote

So you get your historical "facts" from the Russian version of YouTube! Gee, now THERE'S an authoritative source! I'm wondering if there really is a limit to how ridiculous your posts will get. Keep sending 'em, Simkins, laughter is the best medicine!  laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2009, 07:09:31 AM »

Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

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« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2009, 08:17:09 AM »

Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

Yes, there is a lot of cockoo theories like this one out there. In Ukraine, some people say that "every Pravoslavny knows that Christ was an ethnic Ukrainian from Halychyna (Galitzia - a region in the western part of Ukraine)." Indeed, he was a Galilean, and the Galileans are of the same ethnic root as the Galatians, the Celts (Lat. Galli), and the Halychany (Galitzians). "Synthetic God of our people..."

From my Ukrainian prayerbook, my routine morning prayer:

"Пом"яни, Господи Ісусe Христe, Божe наш, Цeркву Твою Cвяту, Cоборну і Апостольську, що за нeї чeсну Cвою Кров пролив, і утвeрди, і зміцни, і пошир, збагати, замири і нeпeрeможною від ворогів пeкeльних повік збeрeжи. Розбрат Цeрков утихомир, думки поганські вгаси, єрeсі знищі і викоріни, бeзбожництво вигуби і на ніщо силою Cвятого Твого Духа пeрeтвори."

("Remember, Lord Jesus Christ, our God, Your Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which You have bought by Your precious Blood; confirm, strengthen and increase Her. Multiply, comfort and preserve Her invincible forever before the gates of hell. End dysharmony among the Churches. Quench the tumult of the heathens. Swiftly put down and root out the rebellion of all heresies and by the Power of Your Holy Spirit turn them to nothing.")
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« Reply #79 on: March 19, 2009, 01:21:07 PM »

Quote
Stalin restored the office of Partiarch, which was abolished by Pyotr I.

Too funny, too ridiculous for words.


http://rutube.ru/tracks/737762.html?v=c3c023f088833f25c6bfa4ebf0fb6e01
If that's where you get your news from, you'll never want for moonshine. laugh
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« Reply #80 on: March 19, 2009, 04:53:39 PM »

This is just getting silly. I think most of us can agree Stalin didn't like the Orthodox Church very much. I think his ordering the execution of 50,000 priests provides good evidence of this.
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« Reply #81 on: March 19, 2009, 05:09:14 PM »

I think that if Herr Nebelpfade tried to approach me (http://reverent.org/Pictures/acrofilia_grand_canyon.jpg) he would look the same way. I would really like to talk to him there.
What's this supposed to mean?

I called Nebelpfade a Herr because his nickname is German. Translates as "misty path" or something like that. He openly expressed his support for the killers of Zoya.

His Kamerad buwammi went even further

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEDN-YBTgBs

You need to set the option to "see all comments" to read his remarks.

So I suggested to both of them to discuss their ideas. Still waiting.

 
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« Reply #82 on: March 19, 2009, 05:27:54 PM »

I think that if Herr Nebelpfade tried to approach me (http://reverent.org/Pictures/acrofilia_grand_canyon.jpg) he would look the same way. I would really like to talk to him there.
What's this supposed to mean?

I called Nebelpfade a Herr because his nickname is German. Translates as "misty path" or something like that. He openly expressed his support for the killers of Zoya.
So, a simple, matter-of-fact explanation of why some German soldiers looked downcast in a picture is open support for someone's killers. Roll Eyes  Yeah, antiderivative, LBK, and ozgeorge are right.  Arguing with you is becoming an exercise in silliness.

The Germans are likely exhausted, hungry, cold, stressed, etc. from the war they are fighting in, did you really expect them to be smiling and skipping to the gallows with her?


His Kamerad buwammi went even further

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEDN-YBTgBs

You need to set the option to "see all comments" to read his remarks.

So I suggested to both of them to discuss their ideas. Still waiting.

 
So, a goofy comment about Zoya's hair and interracial dating in response to your even more vacuous video counts as the subject for serious discussion. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #83 on: March 19, 2009, 05:41:24 PM »

First, despite my user name, I am not German, I am Friulian. 

And I would be interested to see where I "openly expressed [my] support for the killers of Zoya".  The Second World War was a dreadful time for Europe and the World, and terrible things occurred quite often, whether it be by German, or Russian, regular soldier or partisan.  Soldiers were in a bloody business, fighting for their country, as were partisans.  Both of which understood the danger of what they were doing and what could happen to them if they were captured.  These soldiers have likely been away from their home, their families, their loved ones for months or years, have experienced the horrors of warfare, likely have gotten little sleep, their meals contained limited nutrition, morale was likely not at its highest, they were fighting in a climate they were not used to, etc, etc, etc.  I'm sorry, but I wouldn't be smiling either in what appears to be a candid photograph.  Plus, who are these soldiers?  Simple guards, perhaps?  Who knows, since you have not provided an unbiased context.  But how could I forget, German soldiers and civilians were always treated so hospitably by Russian soldiers, with smiles on their faces no less...

I refuse to demonise a solider because he is German or because he appears in a photograph with a partisan that is to be executed, it goes against basic common sense.
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« Reply #84 on: March 19, 2009, 05:54:03 PM »

I think most of us can agree Stalin didn't like the Orthodox Church very much. I think his ordering the execution of 50,000 priests provides good evidence of this.
It did happen under his rule. But he also permitted to elect Patriarch in 1943. Stalin also banned abortion and introduced a legal penalty for sodomy. Abortion was legalized by Kruschov. Yeltsin legalized sodomy.
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« Reply #85 on: March 19, 2009, 06:18:05 PM »

I think most of us can agree Stalin didn't like the Orthodox Church very much. I think his ordering the execution of 50,000 priests provides good evidence of this.
It did happen under his rule. But he also permitted to elect Patriarch in 1943. Stalin also banned abortion and introduced a legal penalty for sodomy. Abortion was legalized by Kruschov. Yeltsin legalized sodomy.

This surprises you?  The Stalinist regime viewed the Russian Orthodox Church as a tool, since Russians would fight for their identity (nationalism, religion, etc) rather than for the survival of Communism.  Patriarch Sergius acted much differently than Saint Tikhon had when it came to dealing with the Communist government, and relations between the Church and the Government mimiced that.
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« Reply #86 on: March 19, 2009, 06:24:23 PM »

how could I forget, German soldiers and civilians were always treated so hospitably by Russian soldiers, with smiles on their faces no less...

In 1944-48, tens of thousands of German POWs, most of them privates who had been forcefully drafted to the Wermacht, many of them just 18-19 years old, were worked and starved to death in my home city, Kyiv. They were rebuilding the central avenue of the city, Khreshchatyk, erecting typical "Socialist Realism" pompous, ornate 16-18-story buildings with sculptures of happy workers and peasants, and five-angled stars on top. Their food rations were one cup of "balanda" (diluted cabbage soup, almost water) per day and 50 grams of bread per day (and not every day). When the Superintendent in charge of the POWs, a Ukrainian general, complained to Moscow that the POWs are dying like flies, he was immediately demoted and sent to a remote town in Eastern Siberia, where he shortly died.

Less than 10% of the POWs who worked in Kyiv survived. The most cynical thing was that the German Army did not even demolish Kyiv - its central part was demolished by the Soviets immediately prior to their retreat from the city in early September 1941.
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« Reply #87 on: March 19, 2009, 06:30:30 PM »

Stalin legalized Orthodoxy during WWII for patriotic reasons. Before and after WWII, his opinion of the Church was very different.
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« Reply #88 on: March 19, 2009, 10:15:13 PM »

Initially, Zoya ignored the orders and did not return to the base.
How do you know?

That has been officially stated in the program at Soviet elementary and middle schools. Another note, which confirms this issue can be found here:
http://www.smi.ru/05/04/12/3464309.html

Командир принял решение возвращаться назад. И тогда Зоя пошла наперекор командирской воле: "Пока задание не выполнено, не вернусь. Я иду в Петрищево..."

Translation: The commander made a decision to return. And then Zoya went against the commander's will: "Until the assignment is fulfilled, I will not return. I am going to Petrishchevo".

Moreover, from a military point of view, instead of providing attacks at Nazi soldiers, making explosions, etc., Zoya just kept setting homes of local Russian peasants in fire.
She got an assignment to burn the village of Petrischevo.


Yes, Nazis were staying in those homes. But Nazis could just run away, however local residents were loosing all their property in a winter time. Who could assist these poor farmers, victims of arsons, in the midst of cold Russian winter? Does this behavior come anywhere close to the actions of the Saint?
The Germans were also losing housing in winter what reduced their ability to fight. The Germans wanted to completeley destroy Russian state so the Russian government had no choice. In Poland the Germans exterminated almost all of the ruling class ( Szlachta ). I heard that only 3% left. Not sure of the number, but certainly Germans killed order of magnitude   more Szlachta than were killed in Katyn (about which there is so much talk). There was also a systematic campaign to exterminate Polish intelligentsia. The same would happen in Russia. These villagers whome you pretend to represent loved Zoya very much and the women were howling when Zoya was exhumed and taken for cremation.

The terror of Nazis in Poland went beyond terrible. But the officers of both Armia Krajowa and Armia Lodowa, Polish partisan armies, could not even imagene to organize the destruction of homes of peaceful Polish farmers. As for Katyn, it is not "so much talk", it is commemoration of dead heroes, brutally killed by NKVD.


According to Argumenty i fakty, Ms. Kosmodemyanskaya had been registered as a person with psychiatric problems in one of the mental institutions. It has been a general practice to do so in USSR.
If it was indeed so she would have been never accepted into partisan unit.

Some teens joined the partisan units after falsifying thier age and pretending that they are older. Of course, this is a heroic desire and it is highly commendable. But such cases transpired, let alone the medical history.

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« Reply #89 on: March 19, 2009, 10:21:11 PM »

One, it's "His."
I didn't correct you for your numerous misspellings.

Two, you get on saying His bride, yet we haven't seen any evidence of a marriage.
Because it did not yet happened.

Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

She's dead.
She is alive.

Are you serious??? Please provide the source of your information. LOL.

This blasphemy goes beyond all imaginable limits.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 10:40:17 PM by Starlight » Logged
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