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Author Topic: Should Kosmodemyanskaya become Saint Zoya?  (Read 23612 times) Average Rating: 0
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Heorhij
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« Reply #135 on: March 24, 2009, 10:15:04 AM »

I wish someone would translate this book by Vladimir Soloukhin into English. It is called "In the Light of Day," and it is an attempt to shed some light on who Lenin really was. The thing is, Lenin's image was mythologized, embellished not only by the Soviets but also by many sympathizers of the "left idea" as well of the "Holy Mother Russia idea" in the West. Soloukhin analyzes a lot of archive materials and shows that Lenin was indeed a monster, a biological degenerate (his father is very likely to be simultaneously a son and a brother of Lenin's paternal grandmother), a deeply disturbed and, very likely, demonically possessed creature of the abyss. He is directly guilty in the slaughter of millions of people during the Red Terror, the Civil War, and the infamous "expropriation of treasures of the Church" in 1921-22. During his rule and under his direct supervision, Russia forever lost its entire nobility, intelligentsia, the merchant class, and most of its clergy and productive peasantry. And this devil's mummy still lies in its pagan "mausoleum" right next to the Kremlin wall on the Red Square.

The book is not worth translating, because Soloukhin does not have much talent as a writer. Nowadays there are numerous people in internet who write much, much better.

Example:  http://www.arctogaia.com/public/zarya.html .

Note also that the same Soloukhin who "shed some light on who Lenin really was" some time ago in his speech, where he demanded to send Pasternak  in excile for "Doctor Zhivago", spoke of "wise Mao". He also blamed Pasternak for not understanding  revolution. He found particularly wicked a verse where Pasternack opposed Pharisaism.

Now, when it became safe Soloukhin wrote his own anti-Soviet book. But as long as all truth was already spoken he resorted to libels.

Soloukhin concluded his speech with a prophecy that Pasternak will be forgoten and nobody will mention him in the media "after some american millionair will get into a car crash". In reality Pasternak is well remembered.

For example, pravoslavna singer matushka Ludmila named him as her teacher  http://bard.ru/cgi-bin/disk.cgi?disk=1075

It is Soloukhin who is in  the junkyard.



I don't think so. I am not in a position to discuss the degree of his talent and I am not the one who has the right to judge his former mistakes. But the fact that many millions of people were annihilated by the Bolsheviks remains the fact, and Soloukhin is absolutely right to turn our attention to it. Everywhere on the territories of the former USSR, and especially where it reigned since the 1920-s, an enormous damage was done to the genetic makeup of the population. Talented landowners, smart traders, builders, creative, constructive, truly spiritual people were eliminated first. Their genes are gone. I think this should worry the young people in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia, central Asian republics. That's serious. Remembering this, one should, in my humble opinion, be especially cautious about new "trendy" claims like those made by these "Eurasians," "Nashi" (the Putinügend), etc. A slow, careful, cautious approach should prevail.
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« Reply #136 on: March 24, 2009, 05:32:54 PM »

blathered on like a lovestruck, drooling teenager about his "beloved" Zoya.
I congratulate you on achieving truly Fraudian depth of penetration into the subconscious. I think you should get some reward from a Psychoanalytic masonic society. Perhaps, a red five-pointed star. You can attach it to your soutane and it will warm your heart with the fire from hell.

But, while my silly passion for my beloved Zoya is merely foolish  and funny, your attitude towards Jesus, after given its proper Fraudian interpretation, can be considered something totally unacceptable.
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« Reply #137 on: March 24, 2009, 06:00:25 PM »

blathered on like a lovestruck, drooling teenager about his "beloved" Zoya.
I congratulate you on achieving truly Fraudian depth of penetration into the subconscious. I think you should get some reward from a Psychoanalytic masonic society. Perhaps, a red five-pointed star. You can attach it to your soutane and it will warm your heart with the fire from hell.

But, while my silly passion for my beloved Zoya is merely foolish  and funny, your attitude towards Jesus, after given its proper Fraudian interpretation, can be considered something totally unacceptable.
Can you get back on the topic of arguing why Zoya should be glorified and not sidetrack this thread yet again with unnecessary ad hominems?
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« Reply #138 on: March 24, 2009, 06:41:44 PM »

blathered on like a lovestruck, drooling teenager about his "beloved" Zoya.
I congratulate you on achieving truly Fraudian depth of penetration into the subconscious. I think you should get some reward from a Psychoanalytic masonic society. Perhaps, a red five-pointed star. You can attach it to your soutane and it will warm your heart with the fire from hell.

But, while my silly passion for my beloved Zoya is merely foolish  and funny, your attitude towards Jesus, after given its proper Fraudian interpretation, can be considered something totally unacceptable.
Can you get back on the topic of arguing why Zoya should be glorified and not sidetrack this thread yet again with unnecessary ad hominems?

Peter, can we honestly expect that this is possible with this man? After all, in his reply to me has twisted my words to make them mean the complete opposite of what they truly mean.  Just as black is white, and just as night is day. I am far too old and ugly to be insulted by this, but I feel the time has come to give Simkins an ultimatum to justify his position, or to deny him the oxygen of publicity, and save us all from his pernicious and scurrilous attacks on Orthodoxy, history, and the memory of those, living and dead, who were the recipients of Stalin's "benevolence".

Some more food for thought:

Here is a letter, only published from the Soviet archives during the glasnost period, written to Stalin in 1937 by a little 12-year-old girl from the countryside. Despite the propaganda of the time, the simple honesty of this little girl makes this letter truly harrowing and moving to read. The little poem at the end is simply gut-wrenching. To me, this letter is perhaps the most eloquent summary of the horrors of Stalinism:

13 January 1937

How do you do, dear comrade Stalin! Our beloved leader, teacher and friend of the whole happy Soviet land. Dear comrade Stalin! I send you my warm and heartfelt greetings and wish you the best successes in your life, and good health for ever. I want to describe my sad life to you.

Dear Comrade Stalin! I heard you saying in your speeches on the radio that children in the Soviet Union have a very good life, they study at school, the school's doors are wide open to them. That is, of course, true, dear comrade Stalin.

Dear Joseph Vissarionovich, I and my brother Aleksandr are not strong enough to go to school. Because, comrade Stalin, we have no food. The Kurilovsky village soviet took our cow and horse from us in 1935. And this is already the second year that we are living without the cow and the horse. There are eight people in our family; six children, the oldest girl is fourteen and the youngest boy is two.

Dear Joseph Vissarionovich! We didn't join the collective farm because my father is an invalid; he fought in two wars, and lost all his health in them, and so he hasn't the strength to work in the collective farm. We haven't any land at present, we handed it over to the collective farm in 1936.

I am in the fourth class at school, comrade Stalin, and my brother is at school too, in the second class. The others don't go to school because they are still too young. Dear comrade Stalin, it's quite impossible for us to go to school, as there isn't any nourishment, and we have very bad anaemia as well.

Dear comrade Stalin! I want to describe to you my progress in my studies: for the first quarter all my marks for seven subjects were `excellent', and for three subjects they were 'good'. But I shall achieve what I want, 'excellent' for all subjects, in the third quarter. But if, comrade Stalin, there was nourishment, then I would study even better.

Dear and beloved leader, comrade Stalin! I think of you, and rely on you to give us help of some kind. Do not leave my request unfulfilled.

TO COMRADE STALIN
Thanks to comrade Stalin
For our happy life!
For our happy childhood,
For our wonderful days.

So there you are, comrade Stalin, our beloved leader, I have described my life for you. I rely on you, beloved leader of a happy country, not to forget my request. Please write back to me, dear comrade Stalin, I will be waiting impatiently.

My address: Nina Vasilyevna Shvetsova, Ileykino village, Kurilovsky village soviet, Makaryev on the Unzha, Ivanovsk oblast.

N. SHVETSOVA (I am 12).


What say you, Simkins?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 06:42:22 PM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #139 on: March 24, 2009, 11:31:47 PM »

I would still like Simkins to prove his claim that only Russia played an important role in the ultimate defeat of Germany in WWII, since his assertion has thus far shown a Russophile nationalism that should shade our view of his veneration and advocacy of "Saint" Zoya.  Maybe Russia could have defeated Germany all by themselves, but they did not provide the only major contributions to the ultimate Allied victory.
In his book Senator McCarthy charged George Marshall with treason because the Second front was opened in Normandy. McCarthy argued that allies should have gone from Italy to Balcans and then to Poland to save those countries from Communism. The only role of the second front in Senator's understanding was saving countries from communism, not defeat of Germany.

In addition in his book Haendler und Helden Werner Sombart classified British and Americans as Haendler. Also Carl Schmitt in his book Land und Meer argued that the only way a Meer power can defeat Land power is to use diplomatic tricks to cause a war between two Land powers. To Land civilizations belong Russia, Germany and Rome. To Meer - USA, Britain and Carthage.

If words are not enough for you here is a picture:

http://reverent.org/vasiliev/marshal_zhukov.jpg
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« Reply #140 on: March 24, 2009, 11:56:31 PM »

"Truth"- What is that?
And not realizing the Truth was standing before him.
In Mel Gibson's film he asked "Quid est Veritas?"
And in Bach's Johannes Passion "Was ist Wahrheit?"

But you did not discover Truth by seeing. You might have read the testimonies of Luke, Mark, Mathew and John.

When you look at this picture 



you don't see.

I asked before: can one show me another photo of a dead person which looks like that? Still waiting.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 11:58:19 PM by Simkins » Logged
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« Reply #141 on: March 25, 2009, 12:07:28 AM »

"Truth"- What is that?
And not realizing the Truth was standing before him.
In Mel Gibson's film he asked "Quid est Veritas?"
And in Bach's Johannes Passion "Was ist Wahrheit?"

But who asked it first and what was the answer?
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« Reply #142 on: March 25, 2009, 12:38:46 AM »

Gimp and/or Photoshop can bring anyone to life, including the dead.

Edited to remove sarcastic comment.
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« Reply #143 on: March 25, 2009, 01:49:12 AM »

Simkins, if Zoya bit her bottom lip so hard she almost cut through it, according to the accounts on your own website, and in the sites you linked to, then how can you explain the lack of damage to her lip in the photograph, which you delight in posting ad nauseam? And, please, spare us any further nausea if your answer is "a miracle". That simply won't wash, I'm afraid.


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« Reply #144 on: March 25, 2009, 01:53:19 AM »

Now, why would I want to do that?
'cause it's the only way to receive the enchanted forbidden knowledge.
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« Reply #145 on: March 25, 2009, 01:56:49 AM »

You're still not answering ANY of our questions, Simkins. Until you do, there is no point in taking you seriously.
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« Reply #146 on: March 25, 2009, 02:51:00 AM »

I asked before: can one show me another photo of a dead person which looks like that? Still waiting.
Sorry.  I don't see photos of dead people everyday.
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« Reply #147 on: March 25, 2009, 07:56:20 AM »

I would still like Simkins to prove his claim that only Russia played an important role in the ultimate defeat of Germany in WWII, since his assertion has thus far shown a Russophile nationalism that should shade our view of his veneration and advocacy of "Saint" Zoya. 

That's the key thing, IMHO - his Russophilia-Russomania. I don't even call it "nationalism," because it's not. Nationalism is a more rational thing, it's a deep care about someone's nation. The Russomania that is being currently galvanized by the Putinoids is a crazy, insane thing, very similar, if anything, to the appeal of Hitler to the Germans that if you are a true Deutch, you love your Vaterland beyond everything else, even when this love requires a total loss of any humanity, compassion, humility, honesty... They are pulling out from their history everything that has "glorious," upbeat, triumphant obertones in it, be it the defeat of the "Dog Knights" by St. Alexander Nevsky, the crazy march of Peter the "Great" or the Satanic feasting of Lenin and Stalin on human blood. "Jolly good, all for the Empire." And if you object, you are declared a Russophobe. And the enemy is clear (again, just like in Hitler's case). This enemy is the West with its "liberalism" (which is understood not at all like it is understood in the USA, but merely as a world view where one holds anything else - humanity, humility, for example - in a higher regard than the Blood and Soil, the Holy Mother Russia). While the history of Russia is being edited so that everything upbeat and triumphant is pulled out and lifted up, the history of the West is also being edited, in the opposite way: it is presented as only deceit, only meanness, only cruelty, only plans to conquer "our Holy Mother Russia."

I found some videos last night, showing Hitler during his speeches. Poor naive, weak Adolf. Just wait, in a few years the Kremlin midgets will put him to shame. And the West will keep "appeasing," as always...
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« Reply #148 on: March 25, 2009, 03:47:51 PM »

Worse, by his revisionist and blasphemous statements, he has shown not a shred of respect or reverence for genuine saints, nor for Christ, who alone "trampled down death by death", nor of those folks, living or dead, who suffered for the Orthodox faith under Stalinism.
Not "trampled down death by death" but conquerred death by death. To trample is unchristly.
Not Christ alone, but Zoya too. She, like Christ, died for an Idea.

http://www.sovross.ru/old/2005/17/17_3_1.htm

Peter, can we honestly expect that this is possible with this man? After all, in his reply to me has twisted my words to make them mean the complete opposite of what they truly mean.  Just as black is white, and just as night is day.

I did not twist anything, but quoted exactly what you said. You had in mind something like

"Жил на свете рыцарь бедный..." ( Verse no. 9 here http://reverent.org/ru/pushkin_or_not.html )

I replied accordingly. When outwitted, you started to complain.

Here is a letter, only published from the Soviet archives during the glasnost period, written to Stalin in 1937 by a little 12-year-old girl from the countryside. Despite the propaganda of the time, the simple honesty of this little girl makes this letter truly harrowing and moving to read. The little poem at the end is simply gut-wrenching. To me, this letter is perhaps the most eloquent summary of the horrors of Stalinism:.

This could have been interesting then. Not after 1990th period. There were more homeless children in 1995 than in 1945.
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« Reply #149 on: March 25, 2009, 03:56:51 PM »

Simkins, if Zoya bit her bottom lip so hard she almost cut through it, according to the accounts on your own website, and in the sites you linked to, then how can you explain the lack of damage to her lip in the photograph,
Don't recall such an account

"When the interrogation was over Zoya had a large purple-black bruise on her forehead, and weals on her arms and legs. She was breathing heavily. She was half undressed and barefoot. The girl's hands were bound behind her. Her lips were bloody and swollen. She had evidently bitten them for not to cry."

http://reverent.org/zoya/martyrdom.html

which you delight in posting ad nauseam? And, please, spare us any further nausea
My Beloved causes nausea in you? Why? I think that She is very beautiful.

if your answer is "a miracle". That simply won't wash, I'm afraid.
So you don't beleive in miracles after all.
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« Reply #150 on: March 25, 2009, 04:00:55 PM »

This could have been interesting then. Not after 1990th period. There were more homeless children in 1995 than in 1945.

Would you please give some source for that statement? On what do you base this statement?  And if it's a percentage, then since there are more human beings alive on Earth now then in 1945, the statement may be true but not mean much without some context.  That Stalin caused the famine in the Ukraine is a matter of historical record and that letter is from a real child who suffered from that action.  So that you may not find it interesting does not negate that the child once lived and that her life was torn apart.

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« Reply #151 on: March 25, 2009, 04:04:55 PM »

Worse, by his revisionist and blasphemous statements, he has shown not a shred of respect or reverence for genuine saints, nor for Christ, who alone "trampled down death by death", nor of those folks, living or dead, who suffered for the Orthodox faith under Stalinism.
Not "trampled down death by death" but conquerred death by death. To trample is unchristly.
Says who?  The English translation of the Paschal Troparion that I've heard so many sing, and that LBK cited, speaks of Christ "trampling" down death by death.  Are you now going to take issue with the language of our hymnography?

Not Christ alone, but Zoya too. She, like Christ, died for an Idea.

http://www.sovross.ru/old/2005/17/17_3_1.htm
Christ didn't die for an idea.  He died to save the human race.

Peter, can we honestly expect that this is possible with this man? After all, in his reply to me has twisted my words to make them mean the complete opposite of what they truly mean.  Just as black is white, and just as night is day.

I did not twist anything, but quoted exactly what you said.
You can quote someone verbatim and still miss his point entirely.

You had in mind something like

"Жил на свете рыцарь бедный..." ( Verse no. 9 here http://reverent.org/ru/pushkin_or_not.html )

I replied accordingly. When outwitted, you started to complain.
But when you say, "You had in mind...", are you not interpreting what LBK's words mean rather than letting LBK tell you what he wants them to mean?

Here is a letter, only published from the Soviet archives during the glasnost period, written to Stalin in 1937 by a little 12-year-old girl from the countryside. Despite the propaganda of the time, the simple honesty of this little girl makes this letter truly harrowing and moving to read. The little poem at the end is simply gut-wrenching. To me, this letter is perhaps the most eloquent summary of the horrors of Stalinism:.

This could have been interesting then. Not after 1990th period. There were more homeless children in 1995 than in 1945.

Irrelevant.  LBK is not comparing the number of homeless in 1995 to the number of homeless in 1945.
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« Reply #152 on: March 25, 2009, 04:36:48 PM »

Says who?  The English translation of the Paschal Troparion that I've heard so many sing, and that LBK cited, speaks of Christ "trampling" down death by death.  Are you now going to take issue with the language of our hymnography?
Says me. How many people did sing it? There are not many English-speaking Pravoslavny. Two hundred and fifty thousands people  took my "True art, or fake?" quiz that I mentioned earlier in this thread. Can I have my opinion?

In one article, written in Russian, I quoted Nabokov. I myself translated the passage from English. The editor pointed out that my translation differs from the official translation (made by Nabokov himself). Nonetheless, my translation was published, because it was better.

Christ didn't die for an idea.  He died to save the human race.
That was a very honorable idea.

You can quote someone verbatim and still miss his point entirely.
I got his point exactly.

But when you say, "You had in mind...", are you not interpreting what LBK's words mean rather than letting LBK tell you what he wants them to mean?
If he had in mind not that, then what?

Irrelevant.  LBK is not comparing the number of homeless in 1995 to the number of homeless in 1945.
He was using that letter to condemn the whole epoch.
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« Reply #153 on: March 25, 2009, 04:44:53 PM »

which you delight in posting ad nauseam? And, please, spare us any further nausea
My Beloved causes nausea in you? Why? I think that She is very beautiful.
No, LBK did not say that your beloved nauseates him.  He said that your infatuation nauseates him.  See the difference?

if your answer is "a miracle". That simply won't wash, I'm afraid.
So you don't beleive in miracles after all.
LOGICAL FALLACY:  Straw man generalization.
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« Reply #154 on: March 25, 2009, 04:48:57 PM »

Says who?  The English translation of the Paschal Troparion that I've heard so many sing, and that LBK cited, speaks of Christ "trampling" down death by death.  Are you now going to take issue with the language of our hymnography?
Says me. How many people did sing it? There are not many English-speaking Pravoslavny. Two hundred and fifty thousands people  took my "True art, or fake?" quiz that I mentioned earlier in this thread. Can I have my opinion?
It's fine to have your own opinion, but it's not okay to correct someone's language because it disagrees with your opinion.

You can quote someone verbatim and still miss his point entirely.
I got his point exactly.
Let's let LBK be the judge of whether you got his point or not.

But when you say, "You had in mind...", are you not interpreting what LBK's words mean rather than letting LBK tell you what he wants them to mean?
If he had in mind not that, then what?
Let's let LBK tell you what he had in mind.

Irrelevant.  LBK is not comparing the number of homeless in 1995 to the number of homeless in 1945.
He was using that letter to condemn the whole epoch.
Let's let LBK tell you why he used that letter.
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« Reply #155 on: March 25, 2009, 04:50:57 PM »

There are not many English-speaking Pravoslavny.
Could you give your evidence for this?
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« Reply #156 on: March 25, 2009, 05:07:30 PM »

There are not many English-speaking Pravoslavny.
Could you give your evidence for this?

I'd bet that there are something between 10 and 20 million English-speaking Orthodox.
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« Reply #157 on: March 25, 2009, 05:28:00 PM »

There are not many English-speaking Pravoslavny.
Could you give your evidence for this?

I'd bet that there are something between 10 and 20 million English-speaking Orthodox.

Including kekoimimenous? Grin
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« Reply #158 on: March 25, 2009, 09:50:03 PM »

Simkins, Have we been subjects of academic experimentation?
Yeah. The working hypothesis is that negative attitude towards Zoya is caused by personal cowardice. It is not merely my opinion. The same idea was expressed in the film

http://rutube.ru/tracks/500804.html?v=e37a4149151cd1bc5526976822555ed5

Cowards defamed Zoya to justify their own miserable behavior in similar circumstances.

To check the hypothesis one needs a scientific method for measuring cowardice. I was considering different methods  and finally settled with this. Bring the subject to the top of a 100+ high feet building and see how close he can come to the edge of the roof. Cowardice is measured in feet. There is certain arbitrarity in chosing this particular method, but I am attracted by its simplicity. Moreover it is evident that this measure will correlate very strongly with other characteristics like ability to ski at highway speeds or behaviour during meeting a bear in the woods. Now is the time to collect the data.
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« Reply #159 on: March 25, 2009, 09:52:53 PM »

Not Christ alone, but Zoya too. She, like Christ, died for an Idea.

Huh Christ did not die for an Idea.

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« Reply #160 on: March 25, 2009, 10:59:25 PM »

No, LBK did not say that your beloved nauseates him.  He said that your infatuation nauseates him.  
Should I divert myself with one of those?



It's fine to have your own opinion, but it's not okay to correct someone's language because it disagrees with your opinion.
It's OK when my opinion is the right one.
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« Reply #161 on: March 25, 2009, 11:26:36 PM »

Simkins, Have we been subjects of academic experimentation?
Yeah. The working hypothesis is that negative attitude towards Zoya is caused by personal cowardice. It is not merely my opinion. The same idea was expressed in the film

http://rutube.ru/tracks/500804.html?v=e37a4149151cd1bc5526976822555ed5

Cowards defamed Zoya to justify their own miserable behavior in similar circumstances.

To check the hypothesis one needs a scientific method for measuring cowardice. I was considering different methods  and finally settled with this. Bring the subject to the top of a 100+ high feet building and see how close he can come to the edge of the roof. Cowardice is measured in feet. There is certain arbitrarity in chosing this particular method, but I am attracted by its simplicity. Moreover it is evident that this measure will correlate very strongly with other characteristics like ability to ski at highway speeds or behaviour during meeting a bear in the woods. Now is the time to collect the data.

Complete and utter tripe, Simkins, and you know it. You have shown a great degree of cowardice yourself in hiding behind the skirts of your blinkered, rabid, neocommunist Russophilia. Your grasp of history is woeful and distorted, and your insistence that Zoya should be canonised is utterly blasphemous, and a gross insult to the genuine saints (the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia) and laymen who truly suffered greatly for their Orthodox faith, often to the point of death, under Stalinism. Zoya died for Stalin and what he stood for, not for God or Christ.

When the Patriarch of Moscow was approached a few years ago to consider the glorification as a saint of Tsar Ivan Grozny, his response was brief, and very telling. He stated that Hieromartyr Philip, Metropolitan of Moscow, among others, had been murdered on the order of the Tsar. If Tsar Ivan, the perpetrator of the death of St Philip, were made a saint, then it would be necessary to "uncanonise" St Philip. You cannot recognise as saints both the victim and the perpetrator of such injustice. The "idea" that Zoya died for was the communist, Stalinist ideal, which was, by definition, atheist. She did not die for the salvation of mankind, whereas Christ, the Son of God, did. To canonise Zoya would be to spit in the faces and on the graves of the New Martyrs.

As for your cheap shot at established Orthodox hymnography and its use in English of the word "trample", here are the texts in Slavonic and Greek of the troparion for the Resurrection:

Христос воскресе из мертвых, смертию смерть поправ, и сущим во гробех живот даровав.

Χριστός ανέστη εκ νεκρών, θανάτω θάνατον πατήσας, καί τοίς εν τοίς μνήμασι, ζωήν χαρισάμενος.

Simkins, I dare you to honestly translate the word поправ (poprav) as anything other than trample or step upon. The same goes for πατήσας (patisas).




« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 11:48:22 PM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #162 on: March 26, 2009, 12:37:33 AM »

Quote
What is the glaring difference between the life and death of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya, compared with, say, the life and death of Evgeniy Rodionov, the 19-year-old conscript who was sent to Chechnya in 1996?

We're still waiting for your answer to the above question, that is, if you have the guts and honesty to answer it.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 12:44:39 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #163 on: March 26, 2009, 12:53:47 AM »

Complete and utter tripe, Simkins, and you know it. You have shown a great degree of cowardice yourself in hiding behind the skirts of your blinkered, rabid, neocommunist Russophilia.
A coward is a person, whose week nerves render him unable to face danger. The Russian word for coward is трус, which can be literally translated as trembler (and this word is sometimes used in English to describe a coward). Etimologically it is derived from the word tremble which relates to shaking of limbs, which a coward experiences in the moment of danger. Thats the real meaning of the word.

 
Your grasp of history is woeful and distorted, and your insistence that Zoya should be canonised is utterly blasphemous, and a gross insult to the genuine saints (the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia)
There was not such a heroine like Zoya in the whole world  for 500 years (since Jeanne d'Arc). Thus to be in the same cathegory with her is not an insult but a great honour.

 
Zoya died for Stalin and what he stood for, not for God or Christ.)
She said "I am happy to die for my people". Which includes you (or, may be, not?)

When the Patriarch of Moscow was approached a few years ago to consider the glorification as a saint of Tsar Ivan Grozny, his response was brief, and very telling. He stated that Hieromartyr Philip, Metropolitan of Moscow, among others, had been murdered on the order of the Tsar. If Tsar Ivan, the perpetrator of the death of St Philip, were made a saint, then it would be necessary to "uncanonise" St Philip.

Actually Grozny is a local saint in Moscow Eparchia. There is an image of him with an aureola  in Granovita hall in Kremlin

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/6/68/Ivan_Groznyi.jpg

You cannot recognise as saints both the victim and the perpetrator of such injustice. The "idea" that Zoya died for was the communist, Stalinist ideal, which was, by definition, atheist. She did not die for the salvation of mankind, whereas Christ, the Son of God, did.

What is that? Did Zoya kill Philip? She was an angel. She lived a sinless life.

To canonise Zoya would be to spit in the faces and on the graves of the New Martyrs.

Or, may be, canonization of Nicolai II was it? Maxim Shevchenko thinks that he (but not his family!) deserved to be executed

http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/personalno/566020-echo/

 

As for your cheap shot at established Orthodox hymnography and its use in English of the word "trample", here are the texts in Slavonic and Greek of the troparion for the Resurrection:

Христос воскресе из мертвых, смертию смерть поправ, и сущим во гробех живот даровав.

Χριστός ανέστη εκ νεκρών, θανάτω θάνατον πατήσας, καί τοίς εν τοίς μνήμασι, ζωήν χαρισάμενος.

Simkins, I dare you to honestly translate the word поправ (poprav) as anything other than trample or step upon. The same goes for πατήσας (patisas).

And how will you translate паршивый? Mangy? I would translate it as lousy (which literally means вшивый, but used the same way as паршивый in Russian).

I gave you translation - conquered. Another - defeated. One more - overcame. All of them  better then trampled. 

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« Reply #164 on: March 26, 2009, 01:30:02 AM »


As for your cheap shot at established Orthodox hymnography and its use in English of the word "trample", here are the texts in Slavonic and Greek of the troparion for the Resurrection:

Христос воскресе из мертвых, смертию смерть поправ, и сущим во гробех живот даровав.

Χριστός ανέστη εκ νεκρών, θανάτω θάνατον πατήσας, καί τοίς εν τοίς μνήμασι, ζωήν χαρισάμενος.

Simkins, I dare you to honestly translate the word поправ (poprav) as anything other than trample or step upon. The same goes for πατήσας (patisas).



While I do not speak Greek, I worked as an interpreter and translator from Ukrainian and Russian to English. Hereby I second LBK's conclusions.

And I support LBK's conclusions beyond the issue of the translation.
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« Reply #165 on: March 26, 2009, 01:56:12 AM »

She said "I am happy to die for my people". Which includes you (or, may be, not?)


For an idea, for Soviet people, but not for Christ. The issue is closed.

Actually Grozny is a local saint in Moscow Eparchia. There is an image of him with an aureola  in Granovita hall in Kremlin

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/6/68/Ivan_Groznyi.jpg
Actually, not true. An image is not an official document.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81_%D0%BE_%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%93%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE
Несмотря на то, что священноначалие РПЦ и большинство мирян категорически высказалось против канонизации Грозного, в некоторых кругах Иоанн Васильевич Грозный считается малочисленной группой энтузиастов местночтимым cвятым Московской епархии

Translation:
Regardless from what the Hierarchy of Russian Orthodox Church and the majority of the laity spoke against canonization of Grozny, in some circles Ioan Vasilievich Grozny is considered a local Saint of Moscow Diocese by a small group of enthusiasts.

End of translation.

Canonization of others is not a sole reason to canonize someone else. 

Guys, we are dealing with Brother Nathanael Act 2.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8698.0.html
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 02:17:05 AM by Starlight » Logged
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« Reply #166 on: March 26, 2009, 02:00:37 AM »

And I suppose you're unbiased.
Nobody yet accused me of germanophobia. 
Actually in one article about my research they wrote

Schön ist natürlich an der russischen Promotion für Manfred von Richthofen und Co.

http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/15/15884/1.html
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 02:01:44 AM by Simkins » Logged
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« Reply #167 on: March 26, 2009, 02:33:34 AM »

No, LBK did not say that your beloved nauseates him.  He said that your infatuation nauseates him.  
Should I divert myself with one of those?


Ya know, I thought only spoiled brats made such stupid faces.  I don't take you to be a spoiled brat, so why do you behave like one?

It's fine to have your own opinion, but it's not okay to correct someone's language because it disagrees with your opinion.
It's OK when my opinion is the right one.
You missed your calling. laugh  You would do much better demonstrating logical fallacies, since you're so full of them.  For instance, the bare assertion fallacy that I just quoted above.  IOW, merely saying something is so don't make it so.  What outside source says your opinion of "trampling down death by death" is right?  The same goes for your assertion that Zoya is a saint.

In general, your inability to formulate a cogent argument and your way of dodging questions by derailing this thread with so many tangents is extremely juvenile.  Do you really want to be seen as juvenile?  Or do you want people to respect you as a mature adult?
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« Reply #168 on: March 26, 2009, 02:35:37 AM »

Schön ist natürlich an der russischen Promotion für Manfred von Richthofen und Co.

http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/15/15884/1.html
I'm not bilingual, so you're going to have to translate that to English.  Besides, I think you've already been told that anything you post in a foreign language outside of our foreign language boards needs to have an English translation attached.
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« Reply #169 on: March 26, 2009, 02:37:45 AM »

Don't mean to sound disrespectful but... four pages of bickering about this?  Really?  Wow.
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« Reply #170 on: March 26, 2009, 03:00:38 AM »

Don't mean to sound disrespectful but... four pages of bickering about this?  Really?  Wow.
Would you rather that Simkin's infantile infatuation with "Saint" Zoya go unchallenged?  Would our silence do anything to snap him out of his delusion?
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« Reply #171 on: March 26, 2009, 03:24:28 AM »

Would you rather that Simkin's infantile infatuation with "Saint" Zoya go unchallenged?  Would our silence do anything to snap him out of his delusion?

Peter, Simkins has been challenged to come up with the goods time and time again, yet he refuses to engage in anything resembling rational discourse. So where do we go from here?
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« Reply #172 on: March 26, 2009, 03:48:05 AM »

Actually, not true. An image is not an official document.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81_%D0%BE_%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%93%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE
Несмотря на то, что священноначалие РПЦ и большинство мирян категорически высказалось против канонизации Грозного, в некоторых кругах Иоанн Васильевич Грозный считается малочисленной группой энтузиастов местночтимым cвятым Московской епархии

Translation:
Regardless from what the Hierarchy of Russian Orthodox Church and the majority of the laity spoke against canonization of Grozny, in some circles Ioan Vasilievich Grozny is considered a local Saint of Moscow Diocese by a small group of enthusiasts.
An image in Granovita Hall in Kremlin is more of an official document than wikipedia. Just because not everyone can paint what he wants in Granovita, but anyone can edit wikipedia.

Ivan Grozny was officially canonized by Moscow Eparchy. The "small group" includes the famous singer Janna Bichevskaya

Here is her song about Ivan Grozny http://www.artistka.ru/hrani/AudioTrack%2004.mp3

more songs here http://www.artistka.ru/hrani.html
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« Reply #173 on: March 26, 2009, 03:50:04 AM »

Don't mean to sound disrespectful but... four pages of bickering about this?  Really?  Wow.
Would you rather that Simkin's infantile infatuation with "Saint" Zoya go unchallenged?  Would our silence do anything to snap him out of his delusion?
Hmm.  Are you telling me that you've finally changed his mind after challenging him?  Cuz 4 pages into it, I'm not getting that.  I've just never seen an argument go anywhere or change anything, that's all.  Believe me, when I was a Muslim, all I did was argue with Christians.  I even became the president of the local Muslim Students Assoc and held huge lectures on campus.  Guess how many I was able to convert by constantly bickering and arguing?  Zero.  Believe me, you won't change anyone's mind by arguing or challenging as you put it.  It's just a huge wast of time and energy regardless of who's right.  
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« Reply #174 on: March 26, 2009, 04:22:50 AM »

Don't mean to sound disrespectful but... four pages of bickering about this?  Really?  Wow.
Would you rather that Simkin's infantile infatuation with "Saint" Zoya go unchallenged?  Would our silence do anything to snap him out of his delusion?
Hmm.  Are you telling me that you've finally changed his mind after challenging him?  Cuz 4 pages into it, I'm not getting that.  I've just never seen an argument go anywhere or change anything, that's all.  Believe me, when I was a Muslim, all I did was argue with Christians.  I even became the president of the local Muslim Students Assoc and held huge lectures on campus.  Guess how many I was able to convert by constantly bickering and arguing?  Zero.  Believe me, you won't change anyone's mind by arguing or challenging as you put it.  It's just a huge wast of time and energy regardless of who's right.  
You really think I'm going to give up so soon because you don't see this argument going anywhere?  Who knows what seed it might plant for later germination?  There may be more to this argument that you're not seeing, so I encourage you to just relax and let us continue this discussion until we see fit to give up. Wink
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 04:22:59 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #175 on: March 26, 2009, 04:48:01 AM »

Ivan Grozny was officially canonized by Moscow Eparchy.

Complete and utter nonsense. The Moscow Patriarchate has steadfastly refused to canonise Ivan IV, and rightly so. This is a matter of public and historical record, so there's no use trying to argue otherwise. Ivan's name does not appear on any Orthodox calendar or list of Orthodox saints, Russian, Muscovite, or otherwise. There is no feastday appointed for Ivan IV, for the simple reason that he has never been recognised as a saint.

The vigil service (Vespers and Matins) for Hieromartyr Philip of Moscow (feastday January 9) refers to the tsar as a "new Herod" and a "new Pharaoh". Are these words which describe a saint?
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« Reply #176 on: March 26, 2009, 04:58:43 AM »

Certainly not in my estimation.

Debunking greatly appreciated. Thank you.
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« Reply #177 on: March 26, 2009, 07:43:10 AM »



Christ didn't die for an idea.  He died to save the human race.
That was a very honorable idea.

That's where you are very wrong, theologically. You obviously aren't properly catechized. Do take a class. Do read some good literature, for example this,

http://www.wco.ru/biblio/books/ioannd2/Main.htm

http://www.wco.ru/biblio/books/lossky2/Main.htm

http://www.wco.ru/biblio/books/florov2/Main.htm

http://www.wco.ru/biblio/books/sacrifice/Main.htm

To say that Christ died for "a very honorable idea" is to trivialize the Incarnation and the redemption of the humanity...

BTW, does your parish priest know about your campaign for canonization of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya? I would be very interested in getting to know him and in corresponding with him. Please write me privately and give me his coordinates!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 07:45:01 AM by Heorhij » Logged

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« Reply #178 on: March 26, 2009, 12:30:10 PM »

so I encourage you to just relax and let us continue this discussion until we see fit to give up. Wink
You got it, bro.  Smiley  BTW, though, I'm probably the most relaxed and laid back person you'll ever talk to.  I am from the Ozarks after all.  Cheesy
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« Reply #179 on: March 26, 2009, 05:06:57 PM »

Ivan Grozny was officially canonized by Moscow Eparchy.

Complete and utter nonsense. The Moscow Patriarchate has steadfastly refused to canonise Ivan IV, and rightly so.
Not by Patriarchate but by Eparchy. Местночтимый московский святой. My source is Janna Bichevskaya radio programme  where she clearly stated that. It is archived somewhere on her website. Do you suggest that Peoples Artist of Russia Janna Bichevskaya is a liar?
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