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Author Topic: Should Kosmodemyanskaya become Saint Zoya?  (Read 22928 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 10, 2009, 12:27:48 AM »

Should Russian Orthodox Church canonize Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya?
What do you think?

Some info about Zoya here: Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya (1923-1941)

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« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2009, 02:42:53 AM »

As tragic and brutal was Zoya's death, the question must be asked: Did she suffer and die in defence of the Orthodox faith? According to the account of her life, this does not seem to be the case. Rather, it seems to me that she died defending the ideals of the soviet state into which she was born, and which she served, most bravely, I might add.
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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2009, 08:16:58 AM »

I think the answer is "absolutely not." There were many young and older people, both men and women, who committed acts of sabotage against the German army during the invasion of the USSR in 1941-44. Similarly, there were many Germans and German sympathizers who committed acts of sabotage against the Soviets. When they were caught by the side against whom they committed sabotage, they were very often brutally tortured and then executed. While this is abominable and I have pity to all people who were tortured, I don't see how this can be a reason for canonization.

BTW, what kind of Web site is this? The music that they play, the tune of the song "Orlyonok" ("Little Eagle") was a propagandist Young Communist League song, kind of like "Horst Wessel" was the theme song of the SS and Hitlerugend.
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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2009, 10:51:19 PM »

As tragic and brutal was Zoya's death, the question must be asked: Did she suffer and die in defence of the Orthodox faith? According to the account of her life, this does not seem to be the case. Rather, it seems to me that she died defending the ideals of the soviet state into which she was born, and which she served, most bravely, I might add.
If to judge formally (like bishops and scribes do) then no, if to judge essentially then yes.

BTW, what do you think of the canonization of the last Tzar and his family? Did they die for the faith or for the country? They were ready to go to Britain, but were not accepted there. Grand princesses sewed diamonds into their closes and  screamed with horror when they were shot  (according to one TV program I saw on Russian Orthodox (Pravoslavny) channel).

I hope you understand me correctly: I do not justify the murder of the Romanovs by the admirers of Heine's poetry. I think it was a crime. Just hiding diamonds and screaming does not correspond with the image of a holy martyr that I have.

I think that there would be much more truth in canonizing  Zoya, than there was in canonizing Romanov's. In other topics in this forum there are complaints that religion is losing its ground. It is because of the luck of the truth, because of corruption.
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« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 11:14:15 PM »

BTW, what do you think of the canonization of the last Tzar and his family? Did they die for the faith or for the country? They were ready to go to Britain, but were not accepted there. Grand princesses sewed diamonds into their closes and  screamed with horror when they were shot  (according to one TV program I saw on Russian Orthodox (Pravoslavny) channel).

I hope you understand me correctly: I do not justify the murder of the Romanovs by the admirers of Heine's poetry. I think it was a crime. Just hiding diamonds and screaming does not correspond with the image of a holy martyr that I have.

The imperial family was murdered as a deliberate political act to show the repudiation of monarchy, religion and Orthodoxy by the Bolshevik regime. The tsars of the Russian empire regarded themselves as the spiritual and temporal successors of the Byzantine emperors. Moscow had styled itself "the Third Rome" following the fall of Constantinople in 1453. The word tsar is derived from Caesar, and the city of Constantinople was often called Tsargrad (Caesar's City) by Russians instead of Konstantinopol'. At his coronation, the tsar would be vested in Byzantine-style robes, and would be anointed by the Patriarch of Moscow. During the ceremony, the tsar would take Holy Communion, not in the nave as a layman, but in the altar, as would a member of the clergy.

The affectionate terms used by the Russian people for their tsar and tsarina were Batiushka (Little Father) and Matushka (Little Mother), the identical terminology used by laymen to this day for a priest and his wife. This is quite deliberate. Of course the people knew full well the tsar was not a clergyman, but the use of such terminology reflected the interrelationship of tsar, Church and people of the empire. Therefore, the assassination of this family was loaded with the symbolism of the "death of religion and the triumph of atheism and Bolshevism". It is for the same reason that the cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow was publicly destroyed on the personal order of Josef Stalin, and the destruction documented in print and on film.

By contrast, we see in the account of the short and unfortunate life of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya no mention of God, Christ, or faith. She went down fighting, to be sure, but in defence of her country and the Soviet system, not in defence of the Orthodox faith. I suspect this supposed push for her canonisation is not unlike the recent, and unsuccessful, move to have Josef Stalin canonised.
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« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2009, 11:52:15 PM »

As tragic and brutal was Zoya's death, the question must be asked: Did she suffer and die in defence of the Orthodox faith? According to the account of her life, this does not seem to be the case. Rather, it seems to me that she died defending the ideals of the soviet state into which she was born, and which she served, most bravely, I might add.
If to judge formally (like bishops and scribes do) then no, if to judge essentially then yes.

She died essentially for Stalin.  You formally judge like komisars and propogandists.  Whatever serves the Party.

Quote
BTW, what do you think of the canonization of the last Tzar and his family? Did they die for the faith or for the country? They were ready to go to Britain, but were not accepted there. Grand princesses sewed diamonds into their closes and  screamed with horror when they were shot  (according to one TV program I saw on Russian Orthodox (Pravoslavny) channel).

The Imperial family, their English physician stated, had other means to leave the country, but the Tsar decided that the rejection by King George was a sign that they were to remain with the Russian people.

Quote
I hope you understand me correctly: I do not justify the murder of the Romanovs by the admirers of Heine's poetry. I think it was a crime. Just hiding diamonds and screaming does not correspond with the image of a holy martyr that I have.

You judging formally?

Quote
I think that there would be much more truth in canonizing  Zoya, than there was in canonizing Romanov's. In other topics in this forum there are complaints that religion is losing its ground. It is because of the luck of the truth, because of corruption.

Because some people lack discernment.
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« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2009, 09:10:27 AM »

All accounts of the Royal Family in Russia noted their piety and their example of Christian Family life and there are many indications that the Tsar himself declined personal rescue as he did not wish further bloodshed on his account.  there are indications that he knew that he would eventually be killed.  The Tsarina's personal piety is well known and documented by those who knew her.  The children remained pure and devout through out their captivity despite the posting of men who deliberately were vulgar in front of them and tried to degrade them, they held firm to their Orthodox faith to the point of their death.  I doubt any child being shot would not cry out in shock and perhaps fear, but it is noted even among the murder squad that upon realization of what was happening members of the Royal Family crossed themselves and they note that they knew where to go to complete the "coupe de gras" by hearing them pray through their tears.  While many can dispute the actions of the Royal family during their reign, it can truly be said that while imprisoned, they exhibited great faith in the Holy Orthodox Church,developed deeper relationships with their Savior, and exemplified what it means to be a passion-bearer of Christ in their light.  Many who observed this were strengthened in their faith at a time of great adversity.

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« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2009, 08:26:35 PM »

I think the answer is "absolutely not."  There were many young and older people, both men and women, who committed acts of sabotage against the German army during the invasion of the USSR in 1941-44. Similarly, there were many Germans and German sympathizers who committed acts of sabotage against the Soviets. When they were caught by the side against whom they committed sabotage, they were very often brutally tortured and then executed. While this is abominable and I have pity to all people who were tortured, I don't see how this can be a reason for canonization.

Really? A lot of people were crucified in Roman Empire as well.

Zoya is not remembered for being tortured and killed. She is remembered because she did not betray neither her comrades nor her suffering by a singe cry.  And for saying a speech with a noose around her neck.

Please reserve your pity for the reporters from conservative Fox news, who converted to Islam  and for WSJ reporter, who was not offered such an opportunity.

Our Zoya is a saint and lives with God and does not need yor pity.

BTW, what kind of Web site is this? The music that they play, the tune of the song "Orlyonok" ("Little Eagle") was a propagandist Young Communist League song, kind of like "Horst Wessel" was the theme song of the SS and Hitlerugend.
I found the "Horst Wessel"  song

http://www.imeem.com/djdrouch/music/HcSWY39h/horst-wessel-horst-wessel-lied-19331945/

From musical perspective. Orlyonok is much better.

Don't have time to study the story behind it. But if his people wrote a song about Horst he could have deserved it. But one certainly can't write a song about McCain

http://buchanan.org/blog/mccain-war-hero-1043
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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2009, 03:59:50 AM »

Quote
Really? A lot of people were crucified in Roman Empire as well.


And a very great number of them were crucified because they refused to renounce their Christian faith.

Quote
Zoya is not remembered for being tortured and killed. She is remembered because she did not betray neither her comrades nor her suffering by a single cry.  And for saying a speech with a noose around her neck.

But, I ask again, did she die in defence of the Orthodox faith?

Quote
Our Zoya is a saint and lives with God and does not need yor pity.

So you know the mind of God, do you? That's wonderful news. Please share your secret with us.
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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2009, 07:13:22 PM »

The word tsar is derived from Caesar
Just like Keiser. What of it?

The affectionate terms used by the Russian people for their tsar and tsarina were Batiushka (Little Father) and Matushka (Little Mother),
Did you read to much of George Orwell?

Batiushka and Matushka are in the same relation with batia and mat' as Daddy and Mommy are with Dad and Mom. Father and Mother do not have similar forms. Therefore the best translation of  Batiushka and Matushka is father and mother. At least this does not look idiotic.

BTW, the last matushka spoke Russian with an accent. So, perhaps, Mutter would have been more appropriate. Before that batyushka Pyotr I abolished Patriarchy and matushka (mutter) Ekaterina II paticipated in the plot to kill batyushka Pyotr III.

the identical terminology used by laymen to this day for a priest and his wife.

There is one pravoslavnaya singer matushka Ludmila. This is, probably, the strongest of her songs

http://files.predanie.ru/music/Kononova_Lujdmila/03_Ja_Shla_Nerovno.mp3

The song is good. But compare it to Orlyonok

http://download.sovmusic.ru/m/orlenok.mp3

And you will find no modern pravoslavny song which could match Orlyonok. Think: why?

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« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2009, 12:56:41 AM »

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But, I ask again, did she die in defence of the Orthodox faith?

Was she Orthodox at all? It says on the webpage:

Quote
Kosmodemyansky family name was constructed by joining the names of Saints Cosmas and Damian (Kosma and Demyan in Russian). Kosmodemyansky were priests of Russian Orthodox Church since 17th century. Zoya's grandfather Saint Pyotr1 Kosmodemyansky was murdered in 1918 by militant godless for his opposition to blasphemy. There had been rumors that before his martyrdom he spoke of coming of two angels, who will try to set people in the right way, but in vain.

Zoya2 was born in 1923 in the village of Osinovy Guy3, not far from the city of Tambov. Her father, Anatoly Kosmodemyansky, studied in a theological seminary, but did not graduate. He later worked as a librarian. Her mother, Lyubov Kosmodemyanskaya (maiden name Churikova), was a school teacher. In 1925 Zoya's brother Alexander was born. Like his sister, he was destined to become Hero of Soviet Union, and, like Zoya, posthumously. In 1929 the family moved to Siberia for fear of persecution. In 1930 they moved to Moscow.

So her parents were Orthodox apparently.
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« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2009, 06:48:30 PM »

it is noted even among the murder squad that upon realization of what was happening members of the Royal Family crossed themselves
Thats amazing. I cllimbed mt. Whitney in January and on the few feet wide path there was a 20 feet long part covered by  snow which layed at a 45 degree angle. The pass was bound by a wall and a two hundred feet vertical fall. I crossed myself before crossing the dangerous place. If I fell, would I become eligible for canonization?
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« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2009, 10:47:35 PM »

Quote
But, I ask again, did she die in defence of the Orthodox faith?

Was she Orthodox at all? It says on the webpage:

Quote
Kosmodemyansky family name was constructed by joining the names of Saints Cosmas and Damian (Kosma and Demyan in Russian). Kosmodemyansky were priests of Russian Orthodox Church since 17th century. Zoya's grandfather Saint Pyotr1 Kosmodemyansky was murdered in 1918 by militant godless for his opposition to blasphemy. There had been rumors that before his martyrdom he spoke of coming of two angels, who will try to set people in the right way, but in vain.

Zoya2 was born in 1923 in the village of Osinovy Guy3, not far from the city of Tambov. Her father, Anatoly Kosmodemyansky, studied in a theological seminary, but did not graduate. He later worked as a librarian. Her mother, Lyubov Kosmodemyanskaya (maiden name Churikova), was a school teacher. In 1925 Zoya's brother Alexander was born. Like his sister, he was destined to become Hero of Soviet Union, and, like Zoya, posthumously. In 1929 the family moved to Siberia for fear of persecution. In 1930 they moved to Moscow.

So her parents were Orthodox apparently.

God has children.

He has no grandchildren.

it is noted even among the murder squad that upon realization of what was happening members of the Royal Family crossed themselves
Thats amazing. I cllimbed mt. Whitney in January and on the few feet wide path there was a 20 feet long part covered by  snow which layed at a 45 degree angle. The pass was bound by a wall and a two hundred feet vertical fall. I crossed myself before crossing the dangerous place. If I fell, would I become eligible for canonization?

Probably not.

I leave it to you to ponder why not.
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« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2009, 01:27:14 AM »

Because some people lack discernment.
Those who claim highest discernment in art can't tell what they call a masterpiece from a ridiculous fake

http://reverent.org/true_art_or_fake_art.html

Same is true in many other fields.
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« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2009, 01:57:54 AM »

Because some people lack discernment.
Those who claim highest discernment in art can't tell what they call a masterpiece from a ridiculous fake

http://reverent.org/true_art_or_fake_art.html

Same is true in many other fields.


Yes, Snake Oil Salesmen have been around since the Serpent, in all forms and guises.  Like chavinism mistaken for patriotism.
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« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2009, 03:28:54 AM »

Those who claim highest discernment in art can't tell what they call a masterpiece from a ridiculous fake

... and others cannot see the arrant stupidity of commissioning an icon to be painted of a paragon of Soviet virtue.
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« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2009, 03:42:03 AM »

Does anyone know either way whether Zoya was an atheist or is this simply being assumed?
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« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2009, 03:49:38 AM »

Nektarios, you'll find more here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20201.0.html

and here: http://www.greeklish.org/features/zoya/index.htm
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« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2009, 04:00:17 AM »

I'm scanning through the material you linked and I don't see anything that explicitly says that she was an atheist.  Given the loosening on religious persecution during WWII, it is possible that she could have had some sort of religious belief and not seen it as being inconsistent with defending the Soviet State.  Of course, I think canonising her is simply absurd, but I don't know if it is appropriate to call her an atheist without explicit evidence. 
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« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2009, 08:33:49 AM »

I'm scanning through the material you linked and I don't see anything that explicitly says that she was an atheist.  Given the loosening on religious persecution during WWII, it is possible that she could have had some sort of religious belief and not seen it as being inconsistent with defending the Soviet State.  Of course, I think canonising her is simply absurd, but I don't know if it is appropriate to call her an atheist without explicit evidence. 
I"m going by their avoidance of answering the question "was she Orthodox/a believer?" by the principle qui tacit consentit, that she was not.
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« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2009, 03:47:17 PM »

I'm scanning through the material you linked and I don't see anything that explicitly says that she was an atheist.  Given the loosening on religious persecution during WWII, it is possible that she could have had some sort of religious belief and not seen it as being inconsistent with defending the Soviet State.  Of course, I think canonising her is simply absurd, but I don't know if it is appropriate to call her an atheist without explicit evidence. 
I"m going by their avoidance of answering the question "was she Orthodox/a believer?" by the principle qui tacit consentit, that she was not.

Sorry, but that is hardly enough evidence to say with any degree of certainty that should wasn't a believer.  All you are doing is showing your bias against anything to do with the Soviet Union, and your willingness to libel someone without any concrete evidence.   
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« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2009, 06:40:34 PM »

I'm scanning through the material you linked and I don't see anything that explicitly says that she was an atheist.  Given the loosening on religious persecution during WWII, it is possible that she could have had some sort of religious belief and not seen it as being inconsistent with defending the Soviet State.  Of course, I think canonising her is simply absurd, but I don't know if it is appropriate to call her an atheist without explicit evidence. 
I"m going by their avoidance of answering the question "was she Orthodox/a believer?" by the principle qui tacit consentit, that she was not.

Sorry, but that is hardly enough evidence to say with any degree of certainty that should wasn't a believer.
The OP asks "Should Kosmodemyanskaya become Saint Zoya?"  Therefore it is his burden to provide the evidence of her faith, not mine.

Quote
All you are doing is showing your bias against anything to do with the Soviet Union,
Not true, I love Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn.

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and your willingness to libel someone without any concrete evidence.   
Just going by what her hagiographer has offered us.
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« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2009, 07:07:53 PM »

The OP asks "Should Kosmodemyanskaya become Saint Zoya?"  Therefore it is his burden to provide the evidence of her faith, not mine.

Whether Zoya ought to be considered a saint is an entirely separate matter.  I think it is pretty obvious to nearly everyone here that this is not being seriously considered by the Russian Orthodox Church.  I see only a single post call for her canonisation.  It's a dead issue.  On the other hand to publicly proclaim she was an atheist with no evidence is libel.   
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« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2009, 04:41:24 AM »

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The OP asks "Should Kosmodemyanskaya become Saint Zoya?"  Therefore it is his burden to provide the evidence of her faith, not mine.

Quote
and your willingness to libel someone without any concrete evidence.
Quote
Just going by what her hagiographer has offered us.

My thoughts exactly. And the sources Simkins has provided from his own website do not mention anything at all about her living in, or dying for, the Orthodox faith. Or Christ. Or God.

Quote
On the other hand to publicly proclaim she was an atheist with no evidence is libel.   


The accounts of Zoya's life supplied by her ardent supporters make no mention at all of any faith or otherwise. One would think that they would, especially when petitioning the Patriarchate for her sainthood. Ask yourself (or, better still, ask Simkins and his ilk) why such a detail is notably absent from the written record they have provided. 

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« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2009, 09:35:17 AM »


I didn't realize that people got to "choose" whom they wanted to see canonized.

Aren't there proper protocols that need to be adhered to?  Isn't there something about the body being incorruptible and miracles that occur?

Has any of this come to pass?

I think not.

The only One who gets to decide/judge whether or not a person is a "saint" is God Himself...and through His grace are we given the knowledge to recognize those individuals as such.

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« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2009, 10:16:20 AM »


I didn't realize that people got to "choose" whom they wanted to see canonized.

Aren't there proper protocols that need to be adhered to?  Isn't there something about the body being incorruptible and miracles that occur?

Has any of this come to pass?

I think not.

The only One who gets to decide/judge whether or not a person is a "saint" is God Himself...and through His grace are we given the knowledge to recognize those individuals as such.



Excellent post!

what it seems is this is not coming from within the Church, by the Grace in Her to reveal it, but a movement to impose this from without on the Church.

Although miracles and incorrupt relics are nice, they are not required.  Baptism however is, and I don't see any evidence of it here being offered.

The accounts of Zoya's life supplied by her ardent supporters make no mention at all of any faith or otherwise. One would think that they would, especially when petitioning the Patriarchate for her sainthood. Ask yourself (or, better still, ask Simkins and his ilk) why such a detail is notably absent from the written record they have provided.
Their silence is deafening.

Perhaps it can become muting too.
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« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2009, 02:46:35 PM »


This is taken from another thread (Concerning Apostolic Succession)

Dear  Christopher,

Another fascinating example of apostolic succession is that of the Church of Smyrna - fascinating because we not only have the succession right back to Saint Polycarp of Smyrna (martyred for Christ) who was appointed as bishop of Smyrna by Saint John the Evangelist but also because it is a concrete example of New Testament prophecy which is still being fulfilled in our own day!!


You remember what the Spirit said to the Church of Smyrna:

"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

"These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. I know your afflictions and your poverty-yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death. ~Revelation 2:8-11



The Church of Smyrna (now modern Izmir in Turkey) still exists. God is true to His word.

In 1922 a great persecution fell upon Smyrna as the Spirit foretold in Revelation. The Turks killed and martyred nearly all the Christians of Smyrna, burning them and drowning them.

It was shameful that there were American naval ships so close to the shore that they could smell the burning flesh and hear the screams, but they refused to pick up the Christians who tried to escape in small boats. They did not want to offend the Turkish Government.

The Orthodox bishop of Smyrna, Bishop Chrysostom, was killed too..

"On 9 September 1922 crowds were rushing into the cathedral for shelter when Chrysostomos, pale from fasting and lack of sleep, led his last prayer. The Divine Liturgy ended as Turkish police came to the church and led Chrysostomos away. The Turkish General Nouredin Pasha, known as the "butcher of Ionia", first spat on the Metropolitan and informed him that a tribunal in Angora (now Ankara) had already condemned him to death. A mob fell upon Chrysostomos and tore out his eyes. Bleeding profusely, he was dragged through the streets by his beard. He was beaten and kicked and parts of his body were cut off. All the while Chrysostomos, his face covered with blood, prayed: "Holy Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." Every now and then, when he had the strength, he would raise his hand and bless his persecutors; a Turk, realizing what the Metropolitan was doing, cut off his hand with a sword. Metropolitan Chrysostomos was then hacked to pieces by the angry mob."

The mind boggles at the awfulness of it all but roughly 100,000 Orthodox Christians were killed in Smyrna in September 1922.

And yet, glory to God, the Church of Smyrna still survives today. The church of Saint Polycarp is still open and the Christians are still there worshipping God. God has been true to His word about Smyrna for 2000 years.



Now, THIS is an example of dying for one's Faith!


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« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2009, 03:57:26 PM »

Quote
The OP asks "Should Kosmodemyanskaya become Saint Zoya?"  Therefore it is his burden to provide the evidence of her faith, not mine.

Quote
and your willingness to libel someone without any concrete evidence.
Quote
Just going by what her hagiographer has offered us.

My thoughts exactly. And the sources Simkins has provided from his own website do not mention anything at all about her living in, or dying for, the Orthodox faith. Or Christ. Or God.

Quote
On the other hand to publicly proclaim she was an atheist with no evidence is libel.   


The accounts of Zoya's life supplied by her ardent supporters make no mention at all of any faith or otherwise. One would think that they would, especially when petitioning the Patriarchate for her sainthood. Ask yourself (or, better still, ask Simkins and his ilk) why such a detail is notably absent from the written record they have provided.

Again, I agree that she should not be a saint as this is clearly a political stunt.  The most that can be said with any certainty is that it is likely she was not a believer.  Given the time period, one must allow for uncertainty as baptismal records were often not kept for obvious reason.  This was also the time period in the USSR when there was a relaxation on laws against Orthodoxy and Islam.  The observation that there was nothing in her life that indicated any connection to the Orthodox Church ought to be enough, IMO.  Also demeaning her death as a martyrdom for Stalin is a bit harsh.  What should Soviet citizens have done during the War effort - welcomed the Nazis so that they could later be killed as Slavic Untermenschen? 


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« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2009, 04:20:04 PM »

demeaning her death as a martyrdom for Stalin is a bit harsh.  What should Soviet citizens have done during the War effort - welcomed the Nazis so that they could later be killed as Slavic Untermenschen? 

Well, some joined a "third force," like the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (Українська Повстанська Армія, УПА, UPA). The UPA was a colossal force, at the height of its history (early 1944) having in its ranks well over 200,000 men and women - maybe the biggest guerilla force in all of the European history. It fought against Hitler and against Stalin, not distinguishing between the two monsters-enemies, treating them and their armies as occupiers, an obstacle on Ukraine's path to liberty and prosperity.

BTW, a famous Ukrainian film director, Oleksandr Dovzhenko, was shocked when fighters from a pro-Soviet partisan detachment (the Kovpak brigade) shared with him how they treated a captured UPA fighter. They said, laughing, "look, we chained him to a stake and made fire underneath him... and he was already burning, the skin, the fat and all... and he was still shouting, 'Long live Ukraine!' What fool..."

As a Ukrainian, I have a tremendous respect, reverence for heroes like that burned UPA fighter, but I am not campaigning about their canonization...
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« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2009, 07:41:11 PM »

Although miracles and incorrupt relics are nice, they are not required.  Baptism however is, and I don't see any evidence of it here being offered.
Technically, not even baptism is required for glorification as a saint.  For instance, the pagan soldier Aglaius who swam out into the frigid water to die as one of the 40 Holy Martyrs of Sebaste after one of the Christians suffering execution apostatized by swimming to shore.

http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=100706

That said, I see no evidence yet that Kosmodemyanskaya died for faith in Jesus Christ, so I see no reason to glorify her as a martyr of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2009, 09:33:34 PM »

Quote
Alexy made it his personal mission to identify the "new martyrs and confessors"—the victims of communist persecution who, in the eyes of the church, died for their Christian faith. He set aside the fourth Saturday after Easter for a special service to commemorate at least 20,000 "enemies of the Soviet state" who, at the height of the Great Purge of 1937-38, were shot and buried in mass graves just south of Moscow.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/04/orthodox/schmemann-text/6
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« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2009, 04:05:03 AM »

Yes, Snake Oil Salesmen have been around since the Serpent, in all forms and guises.  Like chavinism mistaken for patriotism.
Chauvin, for your information,  was Napoleon's soldier. So Napoleon with a gang of his chauvinists invaded Russia in 1812. But the chauvinists had to run all the way back to Paris.
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« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2009, 08:55:32 AM »

Yes, Snake Oil Salesmen have been around since the Serpent, in all forms and guises.  Like chavinism mistaken for patriotism.
Chauvin, for your information,  was Napoleon's soldier. So Napoleon with a gang of his chauvinists invaded Russia in 1812. But the chauvinists had to run all the way back to Paris.

The name became a label of the extreme, uncritical nationalism, however.
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« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2009, 11:31:02 AM »

Yes, Snake Oil Salesmen have been around since the Serpent, in all forms and guises.  Like chavinism mistaken for patriotism.
Chauvin, for your information,  was Napoleon's soldier. So Napoleon with a gang of his chauvinists invaded Russia in 1812. But the chauvinists had to run all the way back to Paris.
I'm well aware of that.  For one thing, I've actually read "War and Peace."

Btw, what you think of Marx?  Lenin?
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« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2009, 01:03:10 PM »

Btw, what you think of Marx?  Lenin?

Marx: an unrealistic seeker of attention. However, he opposed the death penalty. His evaluation of problems of the society in his period of time included some valid points, but recommendations were in vast majority harmful.

Lenin: one of the worst monsters ever.
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« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2009, 01:22:06 PM »

As for the original question, I am another one to vote "absolutely not". A possible Orthodox background of her ancestors can not be a reason for her canonization.

Furthermore, Zoya violated orders and did not return to the base of rebels and by doing so, she endangered others. She could be easily court marshaled and if she would eventually returned. And in this particular case, that would be really deserved. Furthermore, NKVD's attitudes became famous for their horrors. NKVD always suspected collaboration with enemies. Instead of all countries, even the most heroic POWs were often treated as potential traitors, in many cases they were presumed guilty until proved innocent. Let alone someone, who refused to return to the base in woods.

Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya's last words were: "Stalin will come!" Also, back in late 1980s Moscow-based newspaper Argumenty i fakty (Arguments and Facts) presented allegations about her treatment in a mental hospital prior to World War II.

As it has been stated by others in this thread, there is no evidence neither of her saintly life, nor of her martyrdom for Christ.
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« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2009, 02:41:10 PM »

Lenin: one of the worst monsters ever.

I wonder if Mr. Simkins has read this, and if he has, what is his opinion on this book:

http://lib.ru/PROZA/SOLOUHIN/bylight.txt
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« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2009, 02:56:29 PM »

Lenin: one of the worst monsters ever.

I wonder if Mr. Simkins has read this, and if he has, what is his opinion on this book:

http://lib.ru/PROZA/SOLOUHIN/bylight.txt
Thank you for the link, Heorhij!
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« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2009, 05:47:38 PM »

As for the original question, I am another one to vote "absolutely not". A possible Orthodox background of her ancestors can not be a reason for her canonization.
Orthodox background of her ancestors is not possibe, but proven. And the reason for canonization is not her descendance from the long line of priests, but her heroic martyrdom.

Furthermore, Zoya violated orders and did not return to the base of rebels
Because she was captured by the enemy.

and by doing so, she endangered others. 
As is well known she did not endenger anyone, did not give any information and took all torture herself.

Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya's last words were: "Stalin will come!"
Did not appear in the protocols of first questioning of the witnesses.

Also, back in late 1980s Moscow-based newspaper Argumenty i fakty (Arguments and Facts) presented allegations about her treatment in a mental hospital prior to World War II.
She was treated for meningitis.
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« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2009, 05:52:22 PM »

As for the original question, I am another one to vote "absolutely not". A possible Orthodox background of her ancestors can not be a reason for her canonization.
Orthodox background of her ancestors is not possibe, but proven. And the reason for canonization is not her descendance from the long line of priests, but her heroic martyrdom.

But there is no evidence that she was killed for being a Christian; all evidence points to her being killed for her political allegiance to the USSR. 
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« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2009, 06:12:28 PM »

I didn't realize that people got to "choose" whom they wanted to see canonized.

Бог есть синтетическая личность всего народа --Достоевский

Aren't there proper protocols that need to be adhered to?  Isn't there something about the body being incorruptible and miracles that occur?

Has any of this come to pass?

I think not.

Yes there is something special about her body two month after her death



Have you ever seen another such photo?

And the miracle did occur. The Germans ran all the way back to Berlin, after they already celebrated their victory.
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« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2009, 06:42:04 PM »

With all due respect to the soldiers who bravely fought against the German Wermacht near Moscow in November-December 1941, the German retreat was hardly a miracle. The Wermacht was completely unprepared to fight in winter, at temperatures below -20 degrees Celcius. They had no winter clothes, and their engines froze, making their armored vehicles useless. The reasons for this strange lack of preparation were very complex, but I might only mention one factor: the German strategists planned to capture Kyiv (a.k.a. Kiev) "on the march," not later than by mid-July of 1941 (Zhytomyr was captured in early July), while in fact Kyiv resisted till September 6 and swallowed a huge chunk of the German resources.

Also, your statement that the Germans "ran all the way to Berlin" may create an impression that they retreated from Moscow all the way to Berlin in a short time. In fact, in December 1941, they retreated merely to the eastern Ukrainian border, to the Mykhailivs'kyj hamlet - Bakhmach - Konotop line. In late winter and early spring 1942, the Soviet Army made three attempts to develop its offensive toward Kharkiv, and each time it was defeated, with an immense slaughter of hundreds of thousands of its soldiers by the Germans. In spring 1942, the Soviet Army also made an attempt to take the Crimea, and its operation, led by infamous Mekhlis (about whom Stalin said, "for this purpose, we don't need an intelligent man, let's have Mekhlis do it"), resulted in the waste of hundreds of thousands on the Soviet soldiers' lives, and no success whatsoever.

The defeat of the Wermacht in 1943-1945 was a combined effort of the Allied Forces - not any miracle. Plus, there was a colossal effort of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose role in WWII still remains to be fully appreciated.
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« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2009, 08:01:03 PM »

The defeat of the Wermacht in 1943-1945 was a combined effort of the Allied Forces - not any miracle. Plus, there was a colossal effort of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose role in WWII still remains to be fully appreciated.

Why then Allied forces (including Ukrainians) can't do much in Iraq for so long?

I can give consideration to David Irving's statement that fighting Germany was not in the interest of the British Empire. Indeed Britain lost her empire as a result of the war. Also three sisters of Prince Phillip (the husband of the British Queen, who converted from Orthodox to Anglican  to marry her) were married to gauleiters and SS generals and spent the war in Germany. But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.
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« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2009, 08:24:15 PM »

But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.
Can you prove this?
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« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2009, 08:51:12 PM »

But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.
Can you prove this?
In his book "America's retreat from victory" Senator McCarthy wrote that with German defeat at Stalingrad the WWII had ended and WWIII started. All American effort in the war was to save Western Europe from Communism.

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« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2009, 08:54:30 PM »

As for the original question, I am another one to vote "absolutely not". A possible Orthodox background of her ancestors can not be a reason for her canonization.
Orthodox background of her ancestors is not possibe, but proven. And the reason for canonization is not her descendance from the long line of priests, but her heroic martyrdom.

But there is no evidence that she was killed for being a Christian; all evidence points to her being killed for her political allegiance to the USSR.  

Precisely. Therefore, her canonization for martyrdom cannot be considered by the Orthodox Church.

Simkins, please also provide your answer to Ialmisry's question:


Btw, what you think of Marx?  Lenin?


Furthermore, Zoya violated orders and did not return to the base of rebels
Because she was captured by the enemy.

and by doing so, she endangered others. 
As is well known she did not endenger anyone, did not give any information and took all torture herself.

Initially, Zoya ignored the orders and did not return to the base. Then she was captured. Moreover, from a military point of view, instead of providing attacks at Nazi soldiers, making explosions, etc., Zoya just kept setting homes of local Russian peasants in fire. Yes, Nazis were staying in those homes. But Nazis could just run away, however local residents were loosing all their property in a winter time. Who could assist these poor farmers, victims of arsons, in the midst of cold Russian winter? Does this behavior come anywhere close to the actions of the Saint?

Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya's last words were: "Stalin will come!"
Did not appear in the protocols of first questioning of the witnesses.
Or it could be edited in 1960s.

Also, back in late 1980s Moscow-based newspaper Argumenty i fakty (Arguments and Facts) presented allegations about her treatment in a mental hospital prior to World War II.
She was treated for meningitis.

According to Argumenty i fakty, Ms. Kosmodemyanskaya had been registered as a person with psychiatric problems in one of the mental institutions. It has been a general practice to do so in USSR.

I didn't realize that people got to "choose" whom they wanted to see canonized.

Бог есть синтетическая личность всего народа --Достоевский

No, God is our Creator and our Redeemer. We cannot tell God what He should do.



And the miracle did occur. The Germans ran all the way back to Berlin, after they already celebrated their victory.

Are you implying that Nazis were defeated because of intercession of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya???


But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.
No, it is true. As Heorhij indicated, it was a combined effort of Allied Forces. More then obvious. Everyone played a major role. Every soldier deserved a lot of respect. For the record, Soviet Army was extremely multinational. As a matter of fact, some Russians were fighting against Nazis in other armies including Ukrainian Insurgent Army.

Also, based on your site, on the page where you located pictures of demons,
http://reverent.org/zoya/defamation.html

you identify the destruction of anti-Christian, anti-human, murderous Communist regime as opening of the gates of hell? Not the regime, not its start in 1917, but its end. This is how I read it...
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« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2009, 09:11:46 PM »

But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.
Can you prove this?
In his book "America's retreat from victory" Senator McCarthy wrote that with German defeat at Stalingrad the WWII had ended and WWIII started. All American effort in the war was to save Western Europe from Communism.


That doesn't prove anything.  Can you give us the context for Senator McCarthy's opinion?  You do realize also that this was just one man's opinion, regardless of how much of an authority he may have been?  Opinions don't prove anything; only facts do.

Are you also not aware that the Allies forced Germany to fight World War II on two fronts: Russia to the east and the U.S. led forces to the west?  Only Russian nationalism would blind someone to the fact that the U.S. and Great Britain also played a major role in the defeat of Nazi Germany.  If not for the Allied assault on Germany's western front, Hitler would have been able to commit much more of his armed might to his invasion of Soviet Russia.

I think you're also confusing World War II with the Cold War that followed.  During WWII, the U.S., Great Britain, and the Soviet Union were actually allies.  Only after the war ended in 1945 did the USSR and her Western allies become estranged, thus starting the Cold War that served as the context for most of McCarthy's political career.
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« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2009, 09:16:36 PM »

PeterTheAleut, I totally agree with you and I feel the same way as you do.
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« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2009, 09:19:05 PM »

Also, based on your site, on the page where you located pictures of demons,
http://reverent.org/zoya/defamation.html

you identify the destruction of anti-Christian, anti-human, murderous Communist regime as opening of the gates of hell? Not the regime, not its start in 1917, but its end. This is how I read it...
Yes, indeed!  Why 1991 and not 1917?
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« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2009, 12:34:52 AM »

Initially, Zoya ignored the orders and did not return to the base.
How do you know?

Moreover, from a military point of view, instead of providing attacks at Nazi soldiers, making explosions, etc., Zoya just kept setting homes of local Russian peasants in fire.
She got an assignment to burn the village of Petrischevo.


Yes, Nazis were staying in those homes. But Nazis could just run away, however local residents were loosing all their property in a winter time. Who could assist these poor farmers, victims of arsons, in the midst of cold Russian winter? Does this behavior come anywhere close to the actions of the Saint?
The Germans were also losing housing in winter what reduced their ability to fight. The Germans wanted to completeley destroy Russian state so the Russian government had no choice. In Poland the Germans exterminated almost all of the ruling class ( Szlachta ). I heard that only 3% left. Not sure of the number, but certainly Germans killed order of magnitude   more Szlachta than were killed in Katyn (about which there is so much talk). There was also a systematic campaign to exterminate Polish intelligentsia. The same would happen in Russia. These villagers whome you pretend to represent loved Zoya very much and the women were howling when Zoya was exhumed and taken for cremation.

According to Argumenty i fakty, Ms. Kosmodemyanskaya had been registered as a person with psychiatric problems in one of the mental institutions. It has been a general practice to do so in USSR.
If it was indeed so she would have been never accepted into partisan unit.

This is a part of general de-heroization campaign performed by the people who consider cowardice a virtue and courage a vice. Any heroic person is a reproach to such folks, while all honors they give to successful swindlers. I recall they were getting at Chkalov as well. De-heroization campaign was conducted in America too where people like Charles Lindbergh were defamed. The defamation of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya has nothing to do with anti-communism. It is more along Haendler-Helden lines.

Also, based on your site, on the page where you located pictures of demons,
http://reverent.org/zoya/defamation.html

you identify the destruction of anti-Christian, anti-human, murderous Communist regime as opening of the gates of hell? Not the regime, not its start in 1917, but its end. This is how I read it...
First in 1917, next in 1991. There were more homeless children during 1990s than in 1945.
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« Reply #50 on: March 18, 2009, 12:48:07 AM »

This is a part of general de-heroization campaign performed by the people who consider cowardice a virtue and courage a vice. Any heroic person is a reproach to such folks, while all honors they give to successful swindlers. I recall they were getting at Chkalov as well. De-heroization campaign was conducted in America too where people like Charles Lindbergh were defamed. The defamation of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya has nothing to do with anti-communism. It is more along Haendler-Helden lines.
Call her a war hero if you want.  She may very well deserve the honor, and many times over.  That's not the ultimate thrust of your arguments here, though, and it's not to her glorification as a war hero that many here have voiced their opposition.  You have asked if Kosmodemyanskaya should be glorified as a saint in the Orthodox Church, and you have almost demanded that she be given this honor.  In light of this, I say that her status as a war hero means absolutely nothing if she did not die specifically to bear witness to her Orthodox faith in Jesus Christ, for THIS, and nothing else, is what it truly means to be a martyr.
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« Reply #51 on: March 18, 2009, 03:23:22 AM »

You have asked if Kosmodemyanskaya should be glorified as a saint in the Orthodox Church, and you have almost demanded that she be given this honor.  In light of this, I say that her status as a war hero means absolutely nothing if she did not die specifically to bear witness to her Orthodox faith in Jesus Christ, for THIS, and nothing else, is what it truly means to be a martyr.
Exactly, and thus the answer shoud be NO.
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« Reply #52 on: March 18, 2009, 03:49:54 AM »

Quote
when Zoya was exhumed and taken for cremation.

How very interesting. Show us evidence that the Orthodox Church has ever regarded cremation as an acceptable means of treating the body of one who has died. If Zoya was indeed cremated, then this is another clue that she was not Orthodox.
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« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2009, 05:01:28 AM »

Quote
when Zoya was exhumed and taken for cremation.

How very interesting. Show us evidence that the Orthodox Church has ever regarded cremation as an acceptable means of treating the body of one who has died. If Zoya was indeed cremated, then this is another clue that she was not Orthodox.
She was indeed cremated before being burried at Novodevichie. This is according to memoirs of Klavdia Miloradova, who took part in the procedure. Cremation is of minor concern here, because after that she was burried under a masonic star. But please explain me why you so strongly oppose cremation when, according to your post in another thread, usury is fine with you when not too excessive?
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« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2009, 07:31:34 AM »

Quote
when Zoya was exhumed and taken for cremation.

How very interesting. Show us evidence that the Orthodox Church has ever regarded cremation as an acceptable means of treating the body of one who has died. If Zoya was indeed cremated, then this is another clue that she was not Orthodox.
She was indeed cremated before being burried at Novodevichie. This is according to memoirs of Klavdia Miloradova, who took part in the procedure. Cremation is of minor concern here, because after that she was burried under a masonic star. But please explain me why you so strongly oppose cremation when, according to your post in another thread, usury is fine with you when not too excessive?
Is your complain based on the Gospel or Das Kapital?
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« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2009, 09:35:52 AM »

Why then Allied forces (including Ukrainians) can't do much in Iraq for so long?

Because this war is stupid, misguided from the very start. It has no real grounds other than ambitions and ideology. I feel very ashamed that my fellow Ukrainians even participated in it.

I can give consideration to David Irving's statement that fighting Germany was not in the interest of the British Empire. Indeed Britain lost her empire as a result of the war. Also three sisters of Prince Phillip (the husband of the British Queen, who converted from Orthodox to Anglican  to marry her) were married to gauleiters and SS generals and spent the war in Germany. But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.

Oh, no, that's not a lie. Regardless of whom the British royalty married, the British, Canadian, Australian, and U.S. troops fought very bravely and made their contribution to the final defeat of Germany in 1945. The success of the Soviet Army at Stalingrad would hardly be possible without the Allies capturing Malta, building an air base there and starting the heavy bombardment of strategic targets in Germany and Austria in late 1942. The Allies also took on themselves a huge share of the German military force at El Alamein in northern Africa, further enabling the victory at Stalingrad. They also took Sicily and began operations in Southern Italy in summer 1943, thus helping the Soviet army to gain victory at Kursk. Some of the most brutal fighting of the entire WWII took place there, in Italy. One should not look at military history from just one, isolationist point of view. WWII was indeed a "world" war, a lot of things that happened during it were very seriously influenced by other things taking place in other parts of the globe.

Again, I am not dismissing the role of the Soviet Army in the battles against Hitler. My grandfather, and the two siblings of my grandmother (her older brother and her sister), and my grandmother's brother's wife (a military doctor) fought in its ranks all the way from June 1941 till May 1945. They did a wonderful, holy thing, and covered themselves with glory. Yet, one should not re-write history and claim that ONLY the Soviet Army or ONLY the U.S. or whoever did the whole thing.
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« Reply #56 on: March 18, 2009, 10:56:30 AM »

Lenin: one of the worst monsters ever.

I wonder if Mr. Simkins has read this, and if he has, what is his opinion on this book:

http://lib.ru/PROZA/SOLOUHIN/bylight.txt
Thank you for the link, Heorhij!

You are most welcome, brother. I wish someone would translate this book by Vladimir Soloukhin into English. It is called "In the Light of Day," and it is an attempt to shed some light on who Lenin really was. The thing is, Lenin's image was mythologized, embellished not only by the Soviets but also by many sympathizers of the "left idea" as well of the "Holy Mother Russia idea" in the West. Soloukhin analyzes a lot of archive materials and shows that Lenin was indeed a monster, a biological degenerate (his father is very likely to be simultaneously a son and a brother of Lenin's paternal grandmother), a deeply disturbed and, very likely, demonically possessed creature of the abyss. He is directly guilty in the slaughter of millions of people during the Red Terror, the Civil War, and the infamous "expropriation of treasures of the Church" in 1921-22. During his rule and under his direct supervision, Russia forever lost its entire nobility, intelligentsia, the merchant class, and most of its clergy and productive peasantry. And this devil's mummy still lies in its pagan "mausoleum" right next to the Kremlin wall on the Red Square.
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« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2009, 05:55:27 PM »

Yes there is something special about her body two month after her death

Simkins, you are suggesting that Zoya's body is "incorrupt", and therefore further "proof" that she is a "saint". Have you forgotten the severity of the winter that year? The same "General Winter" which decimated the retreating Nazi troops? Not much chance of decomposition. Your defence of Zoya is getting increasingly sillier.
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« Reply #58 on: March 18, 2009, 06:14:05 PM »

The Germans were also losing housing in winter what reduced their ability to fight. The Germans wanted to completeley destroy Russian state so the Russian government had no choice. In Poland the Germans exterminated almost all of the ruling class ( Szlachta ). I heard that only 3% left. Not sure of the number, but certainly Germans killed order of magnitude   more Szlachta than were killed in Katyn (about which there is so much talk). There was also a systematic campaign to exterminate Polish intelligentsia. The same would happen in Russia. These villagers whome you pretend to represent loved Zoya very much and the women were howling when Zoya was exhumed and taken for cremation.

Please, "szlachta" disappeared in XVIII/XIXth century. Nazis and Soviets were killing doctors, pedagogues, priests, officers, politicians but not "szlachta".
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« Reply #59 on: March 18, 2009, 10:35:00 PM »

Is your complain based on the Gospel or Das Kapital?
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« Reply #60 on: March 18, 2009, 11:49:24 PM »

Yes there is something special about her body two month after her death

Simkins, you are suggesting that Zoya's body is "incorrupt", and therefore further "proof" that she is a "saint". Have you forgotten the severity of the winter that year? The same "General Winter" which decimated the retreating Nazi troops? Not much chance of decomposition. Your defence of Zoya is getting increasingly sillier.
There is much more in Zoya's body than the lack of decay. The look of her face.

In his idiotic book Dostoevsky discussed the painting of dead Christ by Hans Holbein  (can see it here: http://nearyou.ru/holbein/21body.html ). Prince Myshkin (idiot) said that people can lose their faith after looking at such a painting. From another hand side this is a realistic painting of a  man who died after being tortured. After  I found  the picture of Zoya that I posted earlier in this thread I realized that Christ did not look like Holbein's blasphemy. He must have looked like his bride Zoya. Otherwise indeed Christ's pupils would have lost their faith.

You call me silly but your arguments have nothing to do with religion and look more like accounting. Those who you suggest as saints instead of Zoya do not inspire. There is no passion in them. You know how Mel Gibson' film was titled? "The passion of the Christ". There was a long series of passions before that. "Johannes Passion" by J.C. Bach is probably the most famous.
I think that the words "auch in der grössten Niedrigkeit verherrlich worden bist" (triumph in the deapest humiliation) are about Zoya as well



The Germans look so sour in this picture because of the cold you suggest?

The words  "conquered death by death" (смертию смерть поправ) from Pravoslavny Easter service can also be spoken about Zoya.
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« Reply #61 on: March 18, 2009, 11:56:46 PM »

Yes there is something special about her body two month after her death

Simkins, you are suggesting that Zoya's body is "incorrupt", and therefore further "proof" that she is a "saint". Have you forgotten the severity of the winter that year? The same "General Winter" which decimated the retreating Nazi troops? Not much chance of decomposition. Your defence of Zoya is getting increasingly sillier.
There is much more in Zoya's body than the lack of decay. The look of her face.

In his idiotic book Dostoevsky discussed the painting of dead Christ by Hans Holbein  (can see it here: http://nearyou.ru/holbein/21body.html ). Prince Myshkin (idiot) said that people can lose their faith after looking at such a painting. From another hand side this is a realistic painting of a  man who died after being tortured. After  I found  the picture of Zoya that I posted earlier in this thread I realized that Christ did not look like Holbein's blasphemy. He must have looked like his bride Zoya.
One, it's "His."

Two, you get on saying His bride, yet we haven't seen any evidence of a marriage.

Quote
Otherwise indeed Christ's pupils would have lost their faith.

You call me silly but your arguments have nothing to do with religion and look more like accounting. Those who you suggest as saints instead of Zoya do not inspire. There is no passion in them. You know how Mel Gibson' film was titled? "The passion of the Christ". There was a long series of passions before that. "Johannes Passion" by J.C. Bach is probably the most famous.
I think that the words "auch in der grössten Niedrigkeit verherrlich worden bist" (triumph in the deapest humiliation) are about Zoya as well



The Germans look so sour in this picture because of the cold you suggest?

The words  "conquered death by death" (смертию смерть поправ) from Pravoslavny Easter service can also be spoken about Zoya.
She's dead.
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« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2009, 12:15:20 AM »




The Germans look so sour in this picture because of the cold you suggest?

The words  "conquered death by death" (смертию смерть поправ) from Pravoslavny Easter service can also be spoken about Zoya.

The Germans are likely exhausted, hungry, cold, stressed, etc. from the war they are fighting in, did you really expect them to be smiling and skipping to the gallows with her?
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« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2009, 12:37:51 AM »

Quote
when Zoya was exhumed and taken for cremation.

How very interesting. Show us evidence that the Orthodox Church has ever regarded cremation as an acceptable means of treating the body of one who has died. If Zoya was indeed cremated, then this is another clue that she was not Orthodox.
She was indeed cremated before being burried at Novodevichie. This is according to memoirs of Klavdia Miloradova, who took part in the procedure. Cremation is of minor concern here, because after that she was burried under a masonic star. But please explain me why you so strongly oppose cremation when, according to your post in another thread, usury is fine with you when not too excessive?
What does one have to do with the other?
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« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2009, 12:45:55 AM »

The Germans are likely exhausted, hungry, cold, stressed, etc. from the war they are fighting in, did you really expect them to be smiling and skipping to the gallows with her?
No, they look like losers. Similar expressions I saw on the faces of  people who climbed a bungee tower, but descended down by staircase.
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« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2009, 12:48:39 AM »

You call me silly but your arguments have nothing to do with religion and look more like accounting.
Well, your refusal thus far to tell us whether Kosmodemyanskaya ever died to bear witness to her Orthodox faith makes your arguments out to have nothing to do with religion.  So what's your point?

Those who you suggest as saints instead of Zoya do not inspire. There is no passion in them.
Subjective criteria which, in light of the contrary evidence of the historical record, prove to be totally irrelevant.

You know how Mel Gibson' film was titled? "The passion of the Christ". There was a long series of passions before that. "Johannes Passion" by J.C. Bach is probably the most famous.
I think that the words "auch in der grössten Niedrigkeit verherrlich worden bist" (triumph in the deapest humiliation) are about Zoya as well
But did she die to bear witness to her faith in Jesus Christ?

The words  "conquered death by death" (смертию смерть поправ) from Pravoslavny Easter service can also be spoken about Zoya.
That's nice that you think so, but did she die to bear witness to her faith in Jesus Christ?
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« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2009, 12:51:04 AM »

The Germans are likely exhausted, hungry, cold, stressed, etc. from the war they are fighting in, did you really expect them to be smiling and skipping to the gallows with her?
No, they look like losers.
I suppose they would to those whose agenda requires that the soldiers be seen as looking like losers.
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« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2009, 01:05:42 AM »

Well, your refusal thus far to tell us whether Kosmodemyanskaya ever died to bear witness to her Orthodox faith
Dostoevsky said that God is a sintetic personality of the whole people. Kosmodemyanskaya died for Russian people and, therefore, for Pravoslavny God.
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« Reply #68 on: March 19, 2009, 01:10:08 AM »

I suppose they would to those whose agenda requires that the soldiers be seen as looking like losers.
No. They look like losers to an unbiased observer. I think that if Herr Nebelpfade tried to approach me (http://reverent.org/Pictures/acrofilia_grand_canyon.jpg) he would look the same way. I would really like to talk to him there.
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« Reply #69 on: March 19, 2009, 01:15:05 AM »

Well, your refusal thus far to tell us whether Kosmodemyanskaya ever died to bear witness to her Orthodox faith
Dostoevsky said that God is a sintetic personality of the whole people.
Where did he say this?

Kosmodemyanskaya died for Russian people and, therefore, for Pravoslavny God.
So, being Russian automatically makes one a Christian.  Does that then make Stalin a Christian?  After all, he was Russian.


I suppose they would to those whose agenda requires that the soldiers be seen as looking like losers.
No. They look like losers to an unbiased observer.
And I suppose you're unbiased.

I think that if Herr Nebelpfade tried to approach me (http://reverent.org/Pictures/acrofilia_grand_canyon.jpg) he would look the same way. I would really like to talk to him there.
What's this supposed to mean?
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« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2009, 02:38:33 AM »

One, it's "His."
I didn't correct you for your numerous misspellings.

Two, you get on saying His bride, yet we haven't seen any evidence of a marriage.
Because it did not yet happened.

Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

She's dead.
She is alive.
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« Reply #71 on: March 19, 2009, 03:10:11 AM »

One, it's "His."
I didn't correct you for your numerous misspellings.

Two, you get on saying His bride, yet we haven't seen any evidence of a marriage.
Because it did not yet happened.

Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

She's dead.
She is alive.

This is beyond weird...
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« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2009, 03:42:53 AM »

Dostoevsky said that God is a sintetic personality of the whole people.
Where did he say this?
Besy (Devils/The possesed)

 "The object of every national movement, in every people and at every period of its existence is only the seeking for its god, who must be its own god, and the faith in Him as the only true one. God is the synthetic personality of the whole people, taken from its beginning to its end. It has never happened that all, or even many, peoples have had one common, god, but each has always had its own. It's a sign of the decay of nations when they begin to have gods in common. When gods begin to be common to several nations the gods are dying and the faith in them, together with the nations themselves. The stronger a people the more individual their God."

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext05/8devl10h.htm

So, being Russian automatically makes one a Christian.  Does that then make Stalin a Christian?  After all, he was Russian.
Stalin (Jugashvilli) was a Georgian. He was born in Gori, where there is still a monument to him. You have heard the city name in reports on Ossetia war, but they did not tell Stalin was born there, though it is of much interest to a lay listener. He was Orthodox Christian and studied in a theological seminary, but did not graduate. Stalin restored the office of Partiarch, which was abolished by Pyotr I.
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« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2009, 05:02:35 AM »

Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.
Thank you for revealing your true colors with this statement.  Heresy is too kind a word for such blasphemy as this.
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« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2009, 05:14:49 AM »

Simkins, your posts are getting so ridiculous and out of touch with reality, I'm beginning to enjoy them for their comedy value. I haven't had such a good laugh for ages!  laugh laugh

Quote
Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

And I'll bet you'll be the one conducting the marriage!  Grin

Quote
Stalin restored the office of Partiarch, which was abolished by Pyotr I.

Too funny, too ridiculous for words.

Quote
"The object of every national movement, in every people and at every period of its existence is only the seeking for its god, who must be its own god, and the faith in Him as the only true one. God is the synthetic personality of the whole people, taken from its beginning to its end. It has never happened that all, or even many, peoples have had one common, god, but each has always had its own. It's a sign of the decay of nations when they begin to have gods in common. When gods begin to be common to several nations the gods are dying and the faith in them, together with the nations themselves. The stronger a people the more individual their God."

I see. So the words of a fictional character in a Dostoyevsky novel have the same importance as those of the Fathers of the Orthodox Church. I must stop laughing, I'm making a mess of my computer screen.

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« Reply #75 on: March 19, 2009, 05:26:33 AM »

Quote
Stalin restored the office of Partiarch, which was abolished by Pyotr I.

Too funny, too ridiculous for words.


http://rutube.ru/tracks/737762.html?v=c3c023f088833f25c6bfa4ebf0fb6e01
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« Reply #76 on: March 19, 2009, 05:34:52 AM »

Quote

So you get your historical "facts" from the Russian version of YouTube! Gee, now THERE'S an authoritative source! I'm wondering if there really is a limit to how ridiculous your posts will get. Keep sending 'em, Simkins, laughter is the best medicine!  laugh laugh laugh
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« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2009, 07:09:31 AM »

Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

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« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2009, 08:17:09 AM »

Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

Yes, there is a lot of cockoo theories like this one out there. In Ukraine, some people say that "every Pravoslavny knows that Christ was an ethnic Ukrainian from Halychyna (Galitzia - a region in the western part of Ukraine)." Indeed, he was a Galilean, and the Galileans are of the same ethnic root as the Galatians, the Celts (Lat. Galli), and the Halychany (Galitzians). "Synthetic God of our people..."

From my Ukrainian prayerbook, my routine morning prayer:

"Пом"яни, Господи Ісусe Христe, Божe наш, Цeркву Твою Cвяту, Cоборну і Апостольську, що за нeї чeсну Cвою Кров пролив, і утвeрди, і зміцни, і пошир, збагати, замири і нeпeрeможною від ворогів пeкeльних повік збeрeжи. Розбрат Цeрков утихомир, думки поганські вгаси, єрeсі знищі і викоріни, бeзбожництво вигуби і на ніщо силою Cвятого Твого Духа пeрeтвори."

("Remember, Lord Jesus Christ, our God, Your Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which You have bought by Your precious Blood; confirm, strengthen and increase Her. Multiply, comfort and preserve Her invincible forever before the gates of hell. End dysharmony among the Churches. Quench the tumult of the heathens. Swiftly put down and root out the rebellion of all heresies and by the Power of Your Holy Spirit turn them to nothing.")
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« Reply #79 on: March 19, 2009, 01:21:07 PM »

Quote
Stalin restored the office of Partiarch, which was abolished by Pyotr I.

Too funny, too ridiculous for words.


http://rutube.ru/tracks/737762.html?v=c3c023f088833f25c6bfa4ebf0fb6e01
If that's where you get your news from, you'll never want for moonshine. laugh
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« Reply #80 on: March 19, 2009, 04:53:39 PM »

This is just getting silly. I think most of us can agree Stalin didn't like the Orthodox Church very much. I think his ordering the execution of 50,000 priests provides good evidence of this.
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« Reply #81 on: March 19, 2009, 05:09:14 PM »

I think that if Herr Nebelpfade tried to approach me (http://reverent.org/Pictures/acrofilia_grand_canyon.jpg) he would look the same way. I would really like to talk to him there.
What's this supposed to mean?

I called Nebelpfade a Herr because his nickname is German. Translates as "misty path" or something like that. He openly expressed his support for the killers of Zoya.

His Kamerad buwammi went even further

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEDN-YBTgBs

You need to set the option to "see all comments" to read his remarks.

So I suggested to both of them to discuss their ideas. Still waiting.

 
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« Reply #82 on: March 19, 2009, 05:27:54 PM »

I think that if Herr Nebelpfade tried to approach me (http://reverent.org/Pictures/acrofilia_grand_canyon.jpg) he would look the same way. I would really like to talk to him there.
What's this supposed to mean?

I called Nebelpfade a Herr because his nickname is German. Translates as "misty path" or something like that. He openly expressed his support for the killers of Zoya.
So, a simple, matter-of-fact explanation of why some German soldiers looked downcast in a picture is open support for someone's killers. Roll Eyes  Yeah, antiderivative, LBK, and ozgeorge are right.  Arguing with you is becoming an exercise in silliness.

The Germans are likely exhausted, hungry, cold, stressed, etc. from the war they are fighting in, did you really expect them to be smiling and skipping to the gallows with her?


His Kamerad buwammi went even further

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEDN-YBTgBs

You need to set the option to "see all comments" to read his remarks.

So I suggested to both of them to discuss their ideas. Still waiting.

 
So, a goofy comment about Zoya's hair and interracial dating in response to your even more vacuous video counts as the subject for serious discussion. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #83 on: March 19, 2009, 05:41:24 PM »

First, despite my user name, I am not German, I am Friulian. 

And I would be interested to see where I "openly expressed [my] support for the killers of Zoya".  The Second World War was a dreadful time for Europe and the World, and terrible things occurred quite often, whether it be by German, or Russian, regular soldier or partisan.  Soldiers were in a bloody business, fighting for their country, as were partisans.  Both of which understood the danger of what they were doing and what could happen to them if they were captured.  These soldiers have likely been away from their home, their families, their loved ones for months or years, have experienced the horrors of warfare, likely have gotten little sleep, their meals contained limited nutrition, morale was likely not at its highest, they were fighting in a climate they were not used to, etc, etc, etc.  I'm sorry, but I wouldn't be smiling either in what appears to be a candid photograph.  Plus, who are these soldiers?  Simple guards, perhaps?  Who knows, since you have not provided an unbiased context.  But how could I forget, German soldiers and civilians were always treated so hospitably by Russian soldiers, with smiles on their faces no less...

I refuse to demonise a solider because he is German or because he appears in a photograph with a partisan that is to be executed, it goes against basic common sense.
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« Reply #84 on: March 19, 2009, 05:54:03 PM »

I think most of us can agree Stalin didn't like the Orthodox Church very much. I think his ordering the execution of 50,000 priests provides good evidence of this.
It did happen under his rule. But he also permitted to elect Patriarch in 1943. Stalin also banned abortion and introduced a legal penalty for sodomy. Abortion was legalized by Kruschov. Yeltsin legalized sodomy.
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« Reply #85 on: March 19, 2009, 06:18:05 PM »

I think most of us can agree Stalin didn't like the Orthodox Church very much. I think his ordering the execution of 50,000 priests provides good evidence of this.
It did happen under his rule. But he also permitted to elect Patriarch in 1943. Stalin also banned abortion and introduced a legal penalty for sodomy. Abortion was legalized by Kruschov. Yeltsin legalized sodomy.

This surprises you?  The Stalinist regime viewed the Russian Orthodox Church as a tool, since Russians would fight for their identity (nationalism, religion, etc) rather than for the survival of Communism.  Patriarch Sergius acted much differently than Saint Tikhon had when it came to dealing with the Communist government, and relations between the Church and the Government mimiced that.
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« Reply #86 on: March 19, 2009, 06:24:23 PM »

how could I forget, German soldiers and civilians were always treated so hospitably by Russian soldiers, with smiles on their faces no less...

In 1944-48, tens of thousands of German POWs, most of them privates who had been forcefully drafted to the Wermacht, many of them just 18-19 years old, were worked and starved to death in my home city, Kyiv. They were rebuilding the central avenue of the city, Khreshchatyk, erecting typical "Socialist Realism" pompous, ornate 16-18-story buildings with sculptures of happy workers and peasants, and five-angled stars on top. Their food rations were one cup of "balanda" (diluted cabbage soup, almost water) per day and 50 grams of bread per day (and not every day). When the Superintendent in charge of the POWs, a Ukrainian general, complained to Moscow that the POWs are dying like flies, he was immediately demoted and sent to a remote town in Eastern Siberia, where he shortly died.

Less than 10% of the POWs who worked in Kyiv survived. The most cynical thing was that the German Army did not even demolish Kyiv - its central part was demolished by the Soviets immediately prior to their retreat from the city in early September 1941.
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« Reply #87 on: March 19, 2009, 06:30:30 PM »

Stalin legalized Orthodoxy during WWII for patriotic reasons. Before and after WWII, his opinion of the Church was very different.
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« Reply #88 on: March 19, 2009, 10:15:13 PM »

Initially, Zoya ignored the orders and did not return to the base.
How do you know?

That has been officially stated in the program at Soviet elementary and middle schools. Another note, which confirms this issue can be found here:
http://www.smi.ru/05/04/12/3464309.html

Командир принял решение возвращаться назад. И тогда Зоя пошла наперекор командирской воле: "Пока задание не выполнено, не вернусь. Я иду в Петрищево..."

Translation: The commander made a decision to return. And then Zoya went against the commander's will: "Until the assignment is fulfilled, I will not return. I am going to Petrishchevo".

Moreover, from a military point of view, instead of providing attacks at Nazi soldiers, making explosions, etc., Zoya just kept setting homes of local Russian peasants in fire.
She got an assignment to burn the village of Petrischevo.


Yes, Nazis were staying in those homes. But Nazis could just run away, however local residents were loosing all their property in a winter time. Who could assist these poor farmers, victims of arsons, in the midst of cold Russian winter? Does this behavior come anywhere close to the actions of the Saint?
The Germans were also losing housing in winter what reduced their ability to fight. The Germans wanted to completeley destroy Russian state so the Russian government had no choice. In Poland the Germans exterminated almost all of the ruling class ( Szlachta ). I heard that only 3% left. Not sure of the number, but certainly Germans killed order of magnitude   more Szlachta than were killed in Katyn (about which there is so much talk). There was also a systematic campaign to exterminate Polish intelligentsia. The same would happen in Russia. These villagers whome you pretend to represent loved Zoya very much and the women were howling when Zoya was exhumed and taken for cremation.

The terror of Nazis in Poland went beyond terrible. But the officers of both Armia Krajowa and Armia Lodowa, Polish partisan armies, could not even imagene to organize the destruction of homes of peaceful Polish farmers. As for Katyn, it is not "so much talk", it is commemoration of dead heroes, brutally killed by NKVD.


According to Argumenty i fakty, Ms. Kosmodemyanskaya had been registered as a person with psychiatric problems in one of the mental institutions. It has been a general practice to do so in USSR.
If it was indeed so she would have been never accepted into partisan unit.

Some teens joined the partisan units after falsifying thier age and pretending that they are older. Of course, this is a heroic desire and it is highly commendable. But such cases transpired, let alone the medical history.

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« Reply #89 on: March 19, 2009, 10:21:11 PM »

One, it's "His."
I didn't correct you for your numerous misspellings.

Two, you get on saying His bride, yet we haven't seen any evidence of a marriage.
Because it did not yet happened.

Every Pravoslavny knows that the second coming of Christ will be in Russia. Few, however, know that He will come not alone, but with His bride Zoya. They will come to celebrate their marriage. However, this will only happen after Russian Pravoslavnaya Church will canonize Zoya.

She's dead.
She is alive.

Are you serious??? Please provide the source of your information. LOL.

This blasphemy goes beyond all imaginable limits.

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« Reply #90 on: March 20, 2009, 02:25:12 AM »

That has been officially stated in the program at Soviet elementary and middle schools.
Don't recall.

Another note, which confirms this issue can be found here:
http://www.smi.ru/05/04/12/3464309.html

Командир принял решение возвращаться назад. И тогда Зоя пошла наперекор командирской воле: "Пока задание не выполнено, не вернусь. Я иду в Петрищево..."

Translation: The commander made a decision to return. And then Zoya went against the commander's will: "Until the assignment is fulfilled, I will not return. I am going to Petrishchevo".

So she did not want to return because the assignment was not completed. Whats wrong with that?

The terror of Nazis in Poland went beyond terrible. But the officers of both Armia Krajowa and Armia Lodowa, Polish partisan armies, could not even imagene to organize the destruction of homes of peaceful Polish farmers.
So Poles lost the war and very quickly. Didn't they?

As for Katyn, it is not "so much talk", it is commemoration of dead heroes, brutally killed by NKVD.
Brutally? They were just shot. Being killed doesn not qualify someone for the status of a hero, even when one is killed by NKVD. More is needed.

Some teens joined the partisan units after falsifying thier age and pretending that they are older. Of course, this is a heroic desire and it is highly commendable. But such cases transpired, let alone the medical history.
Kosmodemyanskaya did not falsify any documents. What medical history are you talking about?
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« Reply #91 on: March 20, 2009, 02:28:57 AM »

Are you serious??? Please provide the source of your information. LOL.
Come, sit down with me. I'll tell you.
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« Reply #92 on: March 20, 2009, 02:36:05 AM »

Another note, which confirms this issue can be found here:
http://www.smi.ru/05/04/12/3464309.html

Командир принял решение возвращаться назад. И тогда Зоя пошла наперекор командирской воле: "Пока задание не выполнено, не вернусь. Я иду в Петрищево..."

Translation: The commander made a decision to return. And then Zoya went against the commander's will: "Until the assignment is fulfilled, I will not return. I am going to Petrishchevo".

So she did not want to return because the assignment was not completed. Whats wrong with that?
I'll tell you what's wrong with that from my experience as a U.S. Marine.  Obedience to lawful orders is the backbone of good order in any military organization.  Going off and doing what you want because you "haven't accomplished your mission yet" does nothing but destroy this good order.  Zoya didn't have the authority to say that she hadn't completed her assignment yet, for only her commanding officer could have made this decision.  When the CO says you're done, YOU'RE DONE! police
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« Reply #93 on: March 20, 2009, 02:37:02 AM »

The terror of Nazis in Poland went beyond terrible. But the officers of both Armia Krajowa and Armia Lodowa, Polish partisan armies, could not even imagene to organize the destruction of homes of peaceful Polish farmers.
So Poles lost the war and very quickly. Didn't they?

Have you never heard of the Polish Underground and such events as the Warsaw Uprising?  Or is this in vogue to deny in the neo-Soviet Union as is Katyn and the other crimes of Stalin?  
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« Reply #94 on: March 20, 2009, 02:38:11 AM »

Are you serious??? Please provide the source of your information. LOL.
Come, sit down with me. I'll tell you.
WHAT!!? Huh Shocked  Are you crazy?  Starlight can't sit down with you via an internet connection.  You're going to have to provide your sources here, online.
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« Reply #95 on: March 20, 2009, 02:38:35 AM »

Simkins, Have we been subjects of academic experimentation?

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« Reply #96 on: March 20, 2009, 04:30:41 AM »

Simkins, you are obviously fixated and obsessed by the idea that Zoya is a saint, as she gave her life heroically during war. Though you have not once answered any of our questions properly, but have chosen to go off on all sorts of tangents, and thus avoiding legitimate questions such as "did she die because she was defending the Orthodox faith", I send out one more challenge to you:

What is the glaring difference between the life and death of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya, compared with, say, the life and death of Evgeniy Rodionov, the 19-year-old conscript who was sent to Chechnya in 1996?

We're eagerly awaiting your reply.
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« Reply #97 on: March 20, 2009, 04:47:56 AM »

WHAT!!? Huh Shocked  Are you crazy?  

A truthful answer might contravene forum rules ...  Wink

Starlight can't sit down with you via an internet connection.  You're going to have to provide your sources here, online.

We wait with bated breath for Simkins to come up with the goods.   Grin
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« Reply #98 on: March 20, 2009, 07:34:05 AM »

Are you serious??? Please provide the source of your information. LOL.
Come, sit down with me. I'll tell you.

On the edge of a precipice.  How apropos.
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« Reply #99 on: March 20, 2009, 04:35:28 PM »

And I would be interested to see where I "openly expressed [my] support for the killers of Zoya". 
In your two posts in the thread.

The Second World War was a dreadful time for Europe and the World, and terrible things occurred quite often, whether it be by German, or Russian, regular soldier or partisan.  Soldiers were in a bloody business, fighting for their country, as were partisans.
What the Germans have been doing 80 km from Moscow?

These soldiers have likely been away from their home, their families, their loved ones for months or years, have experienced the horrors of warfare,
True: they were very much afraid.

likely have gotten little sleep, their meals contained limited nutrition,
So was Zoya. In addotion she was beaten, forced to walk barefoot on snow and her fingernails were torn off.
Why her face look's different?

morale was likely not at its highest,
Thats what I am talking about.

I'm sorry, but I wouldn't be smiling either in what appears to be a candid photograph. 
It's not about  smiling. This is how tired and exhausted people look like

Wounded Manfred von Richthofen, who suffered from terrible headaches

http://www.anzacs.net/Nurse.jpg

Charles Lindbergh after landing in Paris. Did not sleep for 36 hours 25 of which he  flew his airplane sometimes through sleet.

http://collections.mnhs.org/visualresources/image.cfm?imageid=127670&Page=1&Negative=83546&bhcp=1

But the soldiers surrounding Zoya don't look tired and exhausted. They look like suckers.

But how could I forget, German soldiers and civilians were always treated so hospitably by Russian soldiers, with smiles on their faces no less...
Stalin ordered that the officers of 332 Regiment of the 193 Infantry division which murdered Zoya not taken prisoners. Soviet soldiers went further and killed everybody from that regiment.

I refuse to demonise a solider because he is German or because he appears in a photograph with a partisan that is to be executed, it goes against basic common sense.
So you expressed your support for them, which you denied in the begining of you posting.
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« Reply #100 on: March 20, 2009, 04:55:57 PM »

WHAT!!? Huh Shocked  Are you crazy?  

A truthful answer might contravene forum rules ...  Wink
Of course. I am in bad need for psychiatric treatment. Preferably by a Fraudian (sick) Psychoanalist.  Can you recommend someone from your lodge?
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« Reply #101 on: March 20, 2009, 05:05:44 PM »

I'll tell you what's wrong with that from my experience as a U.S. Marine.  Obedience to lawful orders is the backbone of good order in any military organization.  Going off and doing what you want because you "haven't accomplished your mission yet" does nothing but destroy this good order.  Zoya didn't have the authority to say that she hadn't completed her assignment yet, for only her commanding officer could have made this decision.  When the CO says you're done, YOU'RE DONE! police
And I can tell you about something worse. Do you recall how British marines were taken prisoners by the Iranians? How did they explain that they did not offer any resistance to the Iranians? They said that they were afraid that if they do so they could get killed. Thats why the things in Iraq are so bad. No people like Zoya.
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« Reply #102 on: March 20, 2009, 05:09:47 PM »

Dear Simkins, brother,

Rather than blast Freudians, Freemasons, Germans, Americans and whoever else, and defend the heretical theories like coming of Christ to Russia etc., better, brother, ponder on these words - not, mind you, of some Freemason or "liberal," but words of your compatriot, a Russian writer Vladimir Soloukhin:

Желание римского императора  господствовать  над  миром  чудовищно,  но
понятно так же, как любой  другой  могущественной  нации.  Но  здесь-то  чье
господство?  Неужели  только  свое?  Или  своей  группы?  Но  ведь  остается
пять-шесть лет жизни... Ну пусть Сталин потом господствовал тридцать лет, но
все равно, неужели ради этого надо потрошить  народы,  истреблять  физически
лучшую часть каждого  народа,  морить  его  голодом,  держать  в  тюрьмах  и
лагерях, загонять в колхозы, лишив земли, лишив заинтересованности в  труде,
не говоря уже о поэзии труда, о его радостях, хотя и сопряженных с тяжестью.
Труд есть труд. Всякий труд тяжек и связан с потом. Но все  же  когда  он  -
трудовая повинность, он тяжек стократ.
     А еще удивляюсь, как им, если бы даже  и  с  благими  (как  им,  может,
казалось) целями, как им не жалко было пускать на распыл, а фактически убить
и сожрать на перепутье к своим высоким всемирным целям такую  страну,  какой
была Россия, и такой народ, каким был русский народ?  Может  быть,  и  можно
потом восстановить храмы и дворцы, вырастить леса, очистить реки,  можно  не
пожалеть даже об опустошенных выеденных недрах, но  невозможно  восстановить
уничтоженный  генетический  фонд  народа,  который  только  еще  приходил  в
движение, только еще начинал раскрывать свои резервы, только еще  расцветал.
Никто и никогда не вернет  народу  его  уничтоженного  генетического  фонда,
ушедшего в хлюпающие грязью, поспешно вырытые  рвы,  куда  положили  десятки
миллионов лучших, по выбору, по генетическому  именно  отбору  россиян.  Чем
больше  будет  проходить  времени,   тем   больше   будет   сказываться   на
отечественной культуре зияющая брешь, эти перерубленные национальные  корни,
тем сильнее  будет  зарастать  и  захламляться  отечественная  нива  чуждыми
растениями, мелкотравчатой шушерой вместо поднебесных гигантов, о  возможном
росте и характере которых мы теперь не можем и гадать,  потому  что  они  не
прорастут и не вырастут никогда, они погублены даже и не в  зародышах,  а  в
поколениях, которые бы еще только предшествовали им.
     Но  вот  не  будут  предшествовать,  ибо  убиты,  расстреляны,  уморены
голодом, закопаны в землю.
     Гены уходят в землю, и через два-три  десятилетия  не  рождаются  и  не
формируются новые Толстые, Мусоргские, Пушкины, Гоголи, Тургеневы, Аксаковы,
Крыловы, Тютчевы, Феты, Пироговы,  Некрасовы,  Бородины,  Римские-Корсаковы,
Гумилевы,   Цветаевы,   Рахманиновы,   Неждановы,   Вернадские,    Суриковы,
Третьяковы,   Нахимовы,   Яблочкины,   Тимирязевы,   Докучаевы,    Поленовы,
Лобачевские, Станиславские и десятки и  сотни  им  подобных.  Списки  можете
продолжить сами...
     Простое  порабощение  лишает  народ  цветения,  полнокровного  роста  и
духовной жизни в настоящее время. Геноцид, особенно такой  тотальный,  какой
проводился в течение целых десятилетий  в  России,  лишает  народ  цветения,
полнокровной жизни и духовного роста в будущем,  а  особенно  в  отдаленном.
Генетический урон невосполним, и это есть самое печальное  последствие  того
явления, которое мы, захлебываясь от восторга, именуем  Великой  Октябрьской
социалистической революцией.

http://lib.ru/PROZA/SOLOUHIN/bylight.txt
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« Reply #103 on: March 20, 2009, 05:37:22 PM »

Dear Simkins, brother,

Rather than blast Freudians, Freemasons, Germans, Americans and whoever else, and defend the heretical theories like coming of Christ to Russia etc., better, brother, ponder on these words - not, mind you, of some Freemason or "liberal," but words of your compatriot, a Russian writer Vladimir Soloukhin:


Товарищи, говорят иногда, что Б. Пастернак в каких-то определенных датах своей жизни был то лоялен по отношению к нашему обществу и Советской власти, то постепенно отходил от этого, проходя постепенно эволюцию отщепенца. Но мне кажется, что это неверно, так как его поэтическое дарование, комнатное, камерное, — само говорит за себя. Время от времени сквозь его непонятные народу строки проскальзывали совершенно определенные вещи. Возьмите хотя бы такие строфы:

 

Кашне от ветра заслонясь,—

Я крикну в фортку детворе,-

Какое, милые, у нас

Тысячелетье на дворе!

 

И это в то время, когда наша страна переживала какие-то трудности!  Находишь  у  него  еще другие,   более   конкретно выраженные вещи:

 

 

Я слежу за разворотом действий

И играю в них во всех пяти (?)

Я один. Повсюду фарисейство.

Жизнь прожить, не поле перейти.

 

Здесь все очень ярко выражено и очень прямо! Это его изоляция.

 

Напрасно в дни великого совета,

Где высшим строем отданы места,

Оставлена вакансия поэта

Она опасна, если не пуста... (?)

 

Если разобраться в этих строках, то ясно, что настоящий поэт должен находиться в оппозиции к обществу, в котором живет! Вот почему «Доктор Живаго» не является исключением в его творческой биографии. Здесь все закономерно. Говорят, что он не понял гражданской войны, не понял революции. Но мы знаем замечательные примеры обратного, знаем, что А. Толстой, замечательный русский писатель, интеллигент и к тому же граф, — представитель класса, который не принял Октябрьской революции, — написал ярчайшие страницы о гражданской войне, сумел разобраться во всем этом. Знаем, как реагировал на это В. Брюсов, М. Горький — культурнейший человек нашего времени. Это говорит о том, что все это — сознательная проповедь индивидуализма, достойная внутреннего эмигранта.

Об этом же свидетельствует и то, что он не понял, что присуждение ему Нобелевской премии не является фактом содействия развитию культуры и искусства, а лишь политическим актом борьбы с коммунизмом. Разве этого можно не понять? Б. Пастернак совсем не так наивен, как многие из нас думают.

Некоторые товарищи высказывали мысль, что для западного читателя «Доктор Живаго» не так уж интересен, — эмигрантская печать публиковала о нашей стране и о нашем народе вещи еще похлеще. Кроме того, «Доктор Живаго» это вещь о двадцатых годах, по существу, весьма мало интересных, — но эта книга в целом является орудием холодной войны против коммунизма... Разве не мог он это не понять, считая себя таким высоким интеллектом, этой простой, элементарной вещи?

Сейчас идет разговор — поскольку он является внутренним эмигрантом, то не стоит ли ему стать на самом деле эмигрантом? В связи с этим мне вспомнилась такая аналогия. Когда наша партия критиковала ревизионистскую политику Югославии, то были разговоры — а вдруг она окончательно шатнется и уйдет в тот лагерь. И мудрый Мао Дзе-дун в устном выступлении сказал, что этого никогда не будет потому, что американцам нужно, чтобы она была в нашем лагере.

И вот Пастернак, когда станет настоящим эмигрантом, — он там не будет нужен. И нам он не нужен, и о нем скоро забудут. Когда какая-нибудь американская миллионерша попадет в автомобильную катастрофу, то будут о ней шуметь, а Пастернака совершенно забудут. Вот тут и будет для него настоящая казнь. Он там ничего не сможет рассказать интересного, и через месяц его выбросят как съеденное яйцо, как выжатый лимон. И тогда это будет настоящая казнь за предательство, которое он совершил.

http://antology.igrunov.ru/50-s/esse/1084533076.html
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« Reply #104 on: March 20, 2009, 05:38:34 PM »

^^What's that for?
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« Reply #105 on: March 20, 2009, 06:10:18 PM »

^^What's that for?
For you to understand what his words are worth of.
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« Reply #106 on: March 20, 2009, 06:19:50 PM »

Good People,
A couple of things.
Firstly, we have a requirement on this forum that posts in other languages outside of the Other Language forums must be accompanied with an English translation.
Secondly, this is not a news item now, but a debate, so I am moving it to Free For All (Religious Topics) to allow the debate to continue.
Thirdly, tempers need to settle and some semblance of civility needs to start taking place on this thread, so I am temporarily locking it to allow people to calm down.
WHILE IT IS LOCKED, DO NOT OPEN ANOTHER THREAD ON THIS TOPIC. ANYONE WHO DOES SO WILL BE PLACED ON POST MODERATION.

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« Reply #107 on: March 22, 2009, 10:26:49 PM »

Good People,
A couple of things.
Firstly, we have a requirement on this forum that posts in other languages outside of the Other Language forums must be accompanied with an English translation.
Secondly, this is not a news item now, but a debate, so I am moving it to Free For All (Religious Topics) to allow the debate to continue.
Thirdly, tempers need to settle and some semblance of civility needs to start taking place on this thread, so I am temporarily locking it to allow people to calm down.
WHILE IT IS LOCKED, DO NOT OPEN ANOTHER THREAD ON THIS TOPIC. ANYONE WHO DOES SO WILL BE PLACED ON POST MODERATION.

George
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This thead is now unlocked.
Please keep the above in mind when posting.
George
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« Reply #108 on: March 23, 2009, 07:14:31 AM »

^^What's that for?
For you to understand what his words are worth of.

Regardless of what an emigrant's words are worth of, what do you think of the words of Vladimir Soloukhin I quoted? He is certainly no emigrant... (For those who do not read Russian - I quoted a fragment from Soloukhin's book "In the Light of the Day," where he says that the execution of tens of millions of people in Russia by the Bolsheviks could not but damage severely Russia's genetic pool, which means that for at least several more decades there will be, in all probability, no real rebirth of the Russian nation's spirit and culture.)
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« Reply #109 on: March 23, 2009, 05:01:33 PM »

Simkins, you are obviously fixated and obsessed by the idea that Zoya is a saint, as she gave her life heroically during war. Though you have not once answered any of our questions properly, but have chosen to go off on all sorts of tangents, and thus avoiding legitimate questions such as "did she die because she was defending the Orthodox faith", I send out one more challenge to you:

What is the glaring difference between the life and death of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya, compared with, say, the life and death of Evgeniy Rodionov, the 19-year-old conscript who was sent to Chechnya in 1996?

We're eagerly awaiting your reply.

Now that this thread has been unlocked, what is your answer to this, Simkins?
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« Reply #110 on: March 23, 2009, 09:42:06 PM »

"did she die because she was defending the Orthodox faith"
Orthodox is a mistranslation. (Она умерла за ортодоксальную веру? Конечно нет. Она умерла за православную.) Pravoslavny does not mean "orthodox". It means True Rite or True Beleive. Pravoslavie is the Russian Church of Truth. Zoya was always telling truth. She always defended truth. She died for  Truth. It was Truth   tortured and murdered at Russian Golgotha (Galgenhof) in Petryschevo. But Truth did not surrender. She qonquerred death by death. By doing this Zoya became one with Truth. As Pravoslavna church is also one with Truth, Zoya is one with Pravoslavna church. As such she is the Bride of Christ.
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« Reply #111 on: March 23, 2009, 10:15:44 PM »

"did she die because she was defending the Orthodox faith"
Orthodox is a mistranslation. (Она умерла за ортодоксальную веру? Конечно нет. Она умерла за православную.) Pravoslavny does not mean "orthodox". It means True Rite or True Beleive. Pravoslavie is the Russian Church of Truth. Zoya was always telling truth. She always defended truth. She died for  Truth. It was Truth   tortured and murdered at Russian Golgotha (Galgenhof) in Petryschevo. But Truth did not surrender. She qonquerred death by death. By doing this Zoya became one with Truth. As Pravoslavna church is also one with Truth, Zoya is one with Pravoslavna church. As such she is the Bride of Christ.

Maybe if you shared whatever you are on, it could help me pass my finals...
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« Reply #112 on: March 23, 2009, 10:17:14 PM »

"did she die because she was defending the Orthodox faith"
Orthodox is a mistranslation. (Она умерла за ортодоксальную веру? Конечно нет. Она умерла за православную.) Pravoslavny does not mean "orthodox". It means True Rite or True Beleive. Pravoslavie is the Russian Church of Truth. Zoya was always telling truth. She always defended truth. She died for  Truth. It was Truth   tortured and murdered at Russian Golgotha (Galgenhof) in Petryschevo. But Truth did not surrender. She qonquerred death by death. By doing this Zoya became one with Truth. As Pravoslavna church is also one with Truth, Zoya is one with Pravoslavna church. As such she is the Bride of Christ.

Put down the funny smelling cigarette and back away slowly....
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« Reply #113 on: March 23, 2009, 10:33:41 PM »

"did she die because she was defending the Orthodox faith"
Orthodox is a mistranslation. (Она умерла за ортодоксальную веру? Конечно нет. Она умерла за православную.) Pravoslavny does not mean "orthodox". It means True Rite or True Beleive.

That's what Orthodox means--true belief, true worship (rite). lol
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« Reply #114 on: March 23, 2009, 10:45:30 PM »

I wish someone would translate this book by Vladimir Soloukhin into English. It is called "In the Light of Day," and it is an attempt to shed some light on who Lenin really was. The thing is, Lenin's image was mythologized, embellished not only by the Soviets but also by many sympathizers of the "left idea" as well of the "Holy Mother Russia idea" in the West. Soloukhin analyzes a lot of archive materials and shows that Lenin was indeed a monster, a biological degenerate (his father is very likely to be simultaneously a son and a brother of Lenin's paternal grandmother), a deeply disturbed and, very likely, demonically possessed creature of the abyss. He is directly guilty in the slaughter of millions of people during the Red Terror, the Civil War, and the infamous "expropriation of treasures of the Church" in 1921-22. During his rule and under his direct supervision, Russia forever lost its entire nobility, intelligentsia, the merchant class, and most of its clergy and productive peasantry. And this devil's mummy still lies in its pagan "mausoleum" right next to the Kremlin wall on the Red Square.

The book is not worth translating, because Soloukhin does not have much talent as a writer. Nowadays there are numerous people in internet who write much, much better.

Example:  http://www.arctogaia.com/public/zarya.html .

Note also that the same Soloukhin who "shed some light on who Lenin really was" some time ago in his speech, where he demanded to send Pasternak  in excile for "Doctor Zhivago", spoke of "wise Mao". He also blamed Pasternak for not understanding  revolution. He found particularly wicked a verse where Pasternack opposed Pharisaism.

Now, when it became safe Soloukhin wrote his own anti-Soviet book. But as long as all truth was already spoken he resorted to libels.

Soloukhin concluded his speech with a prophecy that Pasternak will be forgoten and nobody will mention him in the media "after some american millionair will get into a car crash". In reality Pasternak is well remembered.

For example, pravoslavna singer matushka Ludmila named him as her teacher  http://bard.ru/cgi-bin/disk.cgi?disk=1075

It is Soloukhin who is in  the junkyard.

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« Reply #115 on: March 23, 2009, 10:51:38 PM »

That's what Orthodox means--true belief, true worship (rite). lol
Thats in Greek. When you use it in English the meaning is "traditional" or "established". I don't like the word.
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« Reply #116 on: March 23, 2009, 10:59:54 PM »

That's what Orthodox means--true belief, true worship (rite). lol
Thats in Greek. When you use it in English the meaning is "traditional" or "established". I don't like the word.

That's just the munchies talking.
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« Reply #117 on: March 23, 2009, 11:05:56 PM »

Zoya was always telling truth. She always defended truth. She died for  Truth. It was Truth   tortured and murdered at Russian Golgotha (Galgenhof) in Petryschevo. But Truth did not surrender. She qonquerred death by death. By doing this Zoya became one with Truth. As Pravoslavna church is also one with Truth, Zoya is one with Pravoslavna church. As such she is the Bride of Christ.

This is complete blasphemy. Zoya's "truth" was the false, atheist "truth" of Soviet Russia, the atheist "truth" which sent countless Orthodox believers to the gulags, to the gallows, and to the firing squads because they were Orthodox believers. Many, many of these were later rightly proclaimed as saints for being steadfast in their Orthodox faith, against all that the Soviet regime could throw at them. St Benjamin of Petrograd, St Luke of Simferopol', St Michaela of Moscow, St Elizabeth the Grand Duchess, the list goes on. Do not insult their memory, nor the memory of those who may not have been proclaimed saints, but who suffered just as much at the hands of the Soviet regime. May I remind you that there are still many survivors of the Stalinism of the 1920s and 1930s who are still alive (I know at least a dozen personally), and whose stories of those times are still being told, and must be told.

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« Reply #118 on: March 24, 2009, 12:05:08 AM »

Are you serious??? Please provide the source of your information. LOL.
Come, sit down with me. I'll tell you.
WHAT!!? Huh Shocked  Are you crazy?  Starlight can't sit down with you via an internet connection.  You're going to have to provide your sources here, online.
One way to do this is for him to sit down in a similar manner  in his location and take a laptop with a webcam. I do the same. And we can talk. If he can't then, perhaps, the brave marine can take his place?
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« Reply #119 on: March 24, 2009, 12:07:59 AM »

That's just the munchies talking.
No it's not. You know what democracy means in Greek? Peoples power. However in Russia this word (democratia) is a pejorative.
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« Reply #120 on: March 24, 2009, 12:08:38 AM »

Zoya was always telling truth. She always defended truth. She died for  Truth. It was Truth   tortured and murdered at Russian Golgotha (Galgenhof) in Petryschevo. But Truth did not surrender. She qonquerred death by death. By doing this Zoya became one with Truth. As Pravoslavna church is also one with Truth, Zoya is one with Pravoslavna church. As such she is the Bride of Christ.

I vaguely recall Someone saying:
"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life- no one comes to the Father but by Me."

I also vaguely recall someone asking:
"Truth"- What is that?
And not realizing the Truth was standing before him.
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« Reply #121 on: March 24, 2009, 12:10:57 AM »

One way to do this is for him to sit down in a similar manner  in his location and take a laptop with a webcam. I do the same. And we can talk. If he can't then, perhaps, the brave marine can take his place?

What brave Marine?
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« Reply #122 on: March 24, 2009, 12:13:37 AM »

That's just the munchies talking.
No it's not. You know what democracy means in Greek? Peoples power. However in Russia this word (democratia) is a pejorative.

Simkins, "medicinal" herbs and the internet aren't exactly the best combination.
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« Reply #123 on: March 24, 2009, 12:14:21 AM »

One way to do this is for him to sit down in a similar manner  in his location and take a laptop with a webcam. I do the same. And we can talk. If he can't then, perhaps, the brave marine can take his place?

What brave Marine?

I'm going to be thoroughly offended if she's talking about me.
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« Reply #124 on: March 24, 2009, 12:18:57 AM »

What brave Marine?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20146.msg302876.html#msg302876
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« Reply #125 on: March 24, 2009, 12:32:04 AM »

Have you never heard of the Polish Underground and such events as the Warsaw Uprising?
Everybody have heard of these great events which decided the course of the war.

Or is this in vogue to deny in the neo-Soviet Union as is Katyn and the other crimes of Stalin?  
Please show me where I denied Katyn? The event was officially admitted by the Soviet government in late 1980s. So todays story is not about poor slaughtered Szlachta.  It is about Brzezinski plan to divide Russia, which he described in his book "The Grand Chessboard."
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« Reply #126 on: March 24, 2009, 12:37:56 AM »


Oh I see. You are thanking Peter for his Military Service and recognising it.
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« Reply #127 on: March 24, 2009, 12:41:08 AM »

Are you serious??? Please provide the source of your information. LOL.
Come, sit down with me. I'll tell you.
WHAT!!? Huh Shocked  Are you crazy?  Starlight can't sit down with you via an internet connection.  You're going to have to provide your sources here, online.
One way to do this is for him to sit down in a similar manner  in his location and take a laptop with a webcam. I do the same. And we can talk. If he can't then, perhaps, the brave marine can take his place?
Now, why would I want to do that?
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« Reply #128 on: March 24, 2009, 12:44:32 AM »

Listen, Simkins, can you provide answers on line??? Everyone else does that. Your jokes are very strange to say the very least. So are your heretical statements.





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« Reply #129 on: March 24, 2009, 12:48:23 AM »

That doesn't prove anything.  Can you give us the context for Senator McCarthy's opinion?  You do realize also that this was just one man's opinion, regardless of how much of an authority he may have been?  Opinions don't prove anything; only facts do.
In the context of the story of George Catlett Marshall. You can read it yourself and check. It's well written, like Ann Coulter books.
 
Are you also not aware that the Allies forced Germany to fight World War II on two fronts: Russia to the east and the U.S. led forces to the west?  Only Russian nationalism would blind someone to the fact that the U.S. and Great Britain also played a major role in the defeat of Nazi Germany. 
Only russophobia can blind someone to the fact that Russia fought  Germany alone during the hardest years 1941-1942. U.S. and British contribution was limited to bombing of Dresden and Morgenthau plan.

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« Reply #130 on: March 24, 2009, 12:54:21 AM »

But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.
Can you prove this?
In his book "America's retreat from victory" Senator McCarthy wrote that with German defeat at Stalingrad the WWII had ended and WWIII started. All American effort in the war was to save Western Europe from Communism.


That doesn't prove anything.  Can you give us the context for Senator McCarthy's opinion?  You do realize also that this was just one man's opinion, regardless of how much of an authority he may have been?  Opinions don't prove anything; only facts do.

Are you also not aware that the Allies forced Germany to fight World War II on two fronts: Russia to the east and the U.S. led forces to the west?  Only Russian nationalism would blind someone to the fact that the U.S. and Great Britain also played a major role in the defeat of Nazi Germany.  If not for the Allied assault on Germany's western front, Hitler would have been able to commit much more of his armed might to his invasion of Soviet Russia.

I think you're also confusing World War II with the Cold War that followed.  During WWII, the U.S., Great Britain, and the Soviet Union were actually allies.  Only after the war ended in 1945 did the USSR and her Western allies become estranged, thus starting the Cold War that served as the context for most of McCarthy's political career.

As much as it pains me to say it, Sen. McCarthy was right. Stalingrad was seen as the turning point in WW2, proving that the Soviets would win, with or without the opening of the Western Front....
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« Reply #131 on: March 24, 2009, 01:04:30 AM »

That doesn't prove anything.  Can you give us the context for Senator McCarthy's opinion?  You do realize also that this was just one man's opinion, regardless of how much of an authority he may have been?  Opinions don't prove anything; only facts do.
In the context of the story of George Catlett Marshall. You can read it yourself and check. It's well written, like Ann Coulter books.
Sorry, I spend so much time reading and posting on this forum that I have no time to read the story of George C. Marshall.  You're going to have to share his story on this thread if you want me to read it.  (IOW, I don't want to go to the effort to do what you're too lazy to do yourself.)
 
Are you also not aware that the Allies forced Germany to fight World War II on two fronts: Russia to the east and the U.S. led forces to the west?  Only Russian nationalism would blind someone to the fact that the U.S. and Great Britain also played a major role in the defeat of Nazi Germany. 
Only russophobia can blind someone to the fact that Russia fought  Germany alone during the hardest years 1941-1942. U.S. and British contribution was limited to bombing of Dresden and Morgenthau plan.


So what?  What the Soviet Union did to fight Germany during the early years of the war, though it probably did help soften Germany to the later years, didn't win the war all by itself.  Otherwise, why did it take until 1945 for Germany to finally be subdued and forced to surrender?
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« Reply #132 on: March 24, 2009, 01:14:06 AM »

But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.
Can you prove this?
In his book "America's retreat from victory" Senator McCarthy wrote that with German defeat at Stalingrad the WWII had ended and WWIII started. All American effort in the war was to save Western Europe from Communism.


That doesn't prove anything.  Can you give us the context for Senator McCarthy's opinion?  You do realize also that this was just one man's opinion, regardless of how much of an authority he may have been?  Opinions don't prove anything; only facts do.

Are you also not aware that the Allies forced Germany to fight World War II on two fronts: Russia to the east and the U.S. led forces to the west?  Only Russian nationalism would blind someone to the fact that the U.S. and Great Britain also played a major role in the defeat of Nazi Germany.  If not for the Allied assault on Germany's western front, Hitler would have been able to commit much more of his armed might to his invasion of Soviet Russia.

I think you're also confusing World War II with the Cold War that followed.  During WWII, the U.S., Great Britain, and the Soviet Union were actually allies.  Only after the war ended in 1945 did the USSR and her Western allies become estranged, thus starting the Cold War that served as the context for most of McCarthy's political career.

As much as it pains me to say it, Sen. McCarthy was right. Stalingrad was seen as the turning point in WW2, proving that the Soviets would win, with or without the opening of the Western Front....
Maybe so...  Maybe so...  I would still like Simkins to prove his claim that only Russia played an important role in the ultimate defeat of Germany in WWII, since his assertion has thus far shown a Russophile nationalism that should shade our view of his veneration and advocacy of "Saint" Zoya.  Maybe Russia could have defeated Germany all by themselves, but they did not provide the only major contributions to the ultimate Allied victory.
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« Reply #133 on: March 24, 2009, 03:25:12 AM »

Maybe so...  Maybe so...  I would still like Simkins to prove his claim that only Russia played an important role in the ultimate defeat of Germany in WWII, since his assertion has thus far shown a Russophile nationalism that should shade our view of his veneration and advocacy of "Saint" Zoya.  Maybe Russia could have defeated Germany all by themselves, but they did not provide the only major contributions to the ultimate Allied victory.

This thread has been completely derailed into tangents which have little to do with the OP's original question, "should Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya be canonised?". Despite many attempts by various posters challenging Simkins to provide us with a cogent, proper argument supporting his position, he has not been forthcoming. Instead, he has either hidden behind the skirts of philosophical and historical tangents (and his grasp of history is sorely lacking!), or, blathered on like a lovestruck, drooling teenager about his "beloved" Zoya.

Worse, by his revisionist and blasphemous statements, he has shown not a shred of respect or reverence for genuine saints, nor for Christ, who alone "trampled down death by death", nor of those folks, living or dead, who suffered for the Orthodox faith under Stalinism.
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« Reply #134 on: March 24, 2009, 03:33:23 AM »


Only russophobia can blind someone to the fact that Russia fought  Germany alone during the hardest years 1941-1942. U.S. and British contribution was limited to bombing of Dresden and Morgenthau plan.

And they were fighting together since 1939 to 1941.
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« Reply #135 on: March 24, 2009, 10:15:04 AM »

I wish someone would translate this book by Vladimir Soloukhin into English. It is called "In the Light of Day," and it is an attempt to shed some light on who Lenin really was. The thing is, Lenin's image was mythologized, embellished not only by the Soviets but also by many sympathizers of the "left idea" as well of the "Holy Mother Russia idea" in the West. Soloukhin analyzes a lot of archive materials and shows that Lenin was indeed a monster, a biological degenerate (his father is very likely to be simultaneously a son and a brother of Lenin's paternal grandmother), a deeply disturbed and, very likely, demonically possessed creature of the abyss. He is directly guilty in the slaughter of millions of people during the Red Terror, the Civil War, and the infamous "expropriation of treasures of the Church" in 1921-22. During his rule and under his direct supervision, Russia forever lost its entire nobility, intelligentsia, the merchant class, and most of its clergy and productive peasantry. And this devil's mummy still lies in its pagan "mausoleum" right next to the Kremlin wall on the Red Square.

The book is not worth translating, because Soloukhin does not have much talent as a writer. Nowadays there are numerous people in internet who write much, much better.

Example:  http://www.arctogaia.com/public/zarya.html .

Note also that the same Soloukhin who "shed some light on who Lenin really was" some time ago in his speech, where he demanded to send Pasternak  in excile for "Doctor Zhivago", spoke of "wise Mao". He also blamed Pasternak for not understanding  revolution. He found particularly wicked a verse where Pasternack opposed Pharisaism.

Now, when it became safe Soloukhin wrote his own anti-Soviet book. But as long as all truth was already spoken he resorted to libels.

Soloukhin concluded his speech with a prophecy that Pasternak will be forgoten and nobody will mention him in the media "after some american millionair will get into a car crash". In reality Pasternak is well remembered.

For example, pravoslavna singer matushka Ludmila named him as her teacher  http://bard.ru/cgi-bin/disk.cgi?disk=1075

It is Soloukhin who is in  the junkyard.



I don't think so. I am not in a position to discuss the degree of his talent and I am not the one who has the right to judge his former mistakes. But the fact that many millions of people were annihilated by the Bolsheviks remains the fact, and Soloukhin is absolutely right to turn our attention to it. Everywhere on the territories of the former USSR, and especially where it reigned since the 1920-s, an enormous damage was done to the genetic makeup of the population. Talented landowners, smart traders, builders, creative, constructive, truly spiritual people were eliminated first. Their genes are gone. I think this should worry the young people in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia, central Asian republics. That's serious. Remembering this, one should, in my humble opinion, be especially cautious about new "trendy" claims like those made by these "Eurasians," "Nashi" (the Putinügend), etc. A slow, careful, cautious approach should prevail.
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« Reply #136 on: March 24, 2009, 05:32:54 PM »

blathered on like a lovestruck, drooling teenager about his "beloved" Zoya.
I congratulate you on achieving truly Fraudian depth of penetration into the subconscious. I think you should get some reward from a Psychoanalytic masonic society. Perhaps, a red five-pointed star. You can attach it to your soutane and it will warm your heart with the fire from hell.

But, while my silly passion for my beloved Zoya is merely foolish  and funny, your attitude towards Jesus, after given its proper Fraudian interpretation, can be considered something totally unacceptable.
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« Reply #137 on: March 24, 2009, 06:00:25 PM »

blathered on like a lovestruck, drooling teenager about his "beloved" Zoya.
I congratulate you on achieving truly Fraudian depth of penetration into the subconscious. I think you should get some reward from a Psychoanalytic masonic society. Perhaps, a red five-pointed star. You can attach it to your soutane and it will warm your heart with the fire from hell.

But, while my silly passion for my beloved Zoya is merely foolish  and funny, your attitude towards Jesus, after given its proper Fraudian interpretation, can be considered something totally unacceptable.
Can you get back on the topic of arguing why Zoya should be glorified and not sidetrack this thread yet again with unnecessary ad hominems?
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« Reply #138 on: March 24, 2009, 06:41:44 PM »

blathered on like a lovestruck, drooling teenager about his "beloved" Zoya.
I congratulate you on achieving truly Fraudian depth of penetration into the subconscious. I think you should get some reward from a Psychoanalytic masonic society. Perhaps, a red five-pointed star. You can attach it to your soutane and it will warm your heart with the fire from hell.

But, while my silly passion for my beloved Zoya is merely foolish  and funny, your attitude towards Jesus, after given its proper Fraudian interpretation, can be considered something totally unacceptable.
Can you get back on the topic of arguing why Zoya should be glorified and not sidetrack this thread yet again with unnecessary ad hominems?

Peter, can we honestly expect that this is possible with this man? After all, in his reply to me has twisted my words to make them mean the complete opposite of what they truly mean.  Just as black is white, and just as night is day. I am far too old and ugly to be insulted by this, but I feel the time has come to give Simkins an ultimatum to justify his position, or to deny him the oxygen of publicity, and save us all from his pernicious and scurrilous attacks on Orthodoxy, history, and the memory of those, living and dead, who were the recipients of Stalin's "benevolence".

Some more food for thought:

Here is a letter, only published from the Soviet archives during the glasnost period, written to Stalin in 1937 by a little 12-year-old girl from the countryside. Despite the propaganda of the time, the simple honesty of this little girl makes this letter truly harrowing and moving to read. The little poem at the end is simply gut-wrenching. To me, this letter is perhaps the most eloquent summary of the horrors of Stalinism:

13 January 1937

How do you do, dear comrade Stalin! Our beloved leader, teacher and friend of the whole happy Soviet land. Dear comrade Stalin! I send you my warm and heartfelt greetings and wish you the best successes in your life, and good health for ever. I want to describe my sad life to you.

Dear Comrade Stalin! I heard you saying in your speeches on the radio that children in the Soviet Union have a very good life, they study at school, the school's doors are wide open to them. That is, of course, true, dear comrade Stalin.

Dear Joseph Vissarionovich, I and my brother Aleksandr are not strong enough to go to school. Because, comrade Stalin, we have no food. The Kurilovsky village soviet took our cow and horse from us in 1935. And this is already the second year that we are living without the cow and the horse. There are eight people in our family; six children, the oldest girl is fourteen and the youngest boy is two.

Dear Joseph Vissarionovich! We didn't join the collective farm because my father is an invalid; he fought in two wars, and lost all his health in them, and so he hasn't the strength to work in the collective farm. We haven't any land at present, we handed it over to the collective farm in 1936.

I am in the fourth class at school, comrade Stalin, and my brother is at school too, in the second class. The others don't go to school because they are still too young. Dear comrade Stalin, it's quite impossible for us to go to school, as there isn't any nourishment, and we have very bad anaemia as well.

Dear comrade Stalin! I want to describe to you my progress in my studies: for the first quarter all my marks for seven subjects were `excellent', and for three subjects they were 'good'. But I shall achieve what I want, 'excellent' for all subjects, in the third quarter. But if, comrade Stalin, there was nourishment, then I would study even better.

Dear and beloved leader, comrade Stalin! I think of you, and rely on you to give us help of some kind. Do not leave my request unfulfilled.

TO COMRADE STALIN
Thanks to comrade Stalin
For our happy life!
For our happy childhood,
For our wonderful days.

So there you are, comrade Stalin, our beloved leader, I have described my life for you. I rely on you, beloved leader of a happy country, not to forget my request. Please write back to me, dear comrade Stalin, I will be waiting impatiently.

My address: Nina Vasilyevna Shvetsova, Ileykino village, Kurilovsky village soviet, Makaryev on the Unzha, Ivanovsk oblast.

N. SHVETSOVA (I am 12).


What say you, Simkins?
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« Reply #139 on: March 24, 2009, 11:31:47 PM »

I would still like Simkins to prove his claim that only Russia played an important role in the ultimate defeat of Germany in WWII, since his assertion has thus far shown a Russophile nationalism that should shade our view of his veneration and advocacy of "Saint" Zoya.  Maybe Russia could have defeated Germany all by themselves, but they did not provide the only major contributions to the ultimate Allied victory.
In his book Senator McCarthy charged George Marshall with treason because the Second front was opened in Normandy. McCarthy argued that allies should have gone from Italy to Balcans and then to Poland to save those countries from Communism. The only role of the second front in Senator's understanding was saving countries from communism, not defeat of Germany.

In addition in his book Haendler und Helden Werner Sombart classified British and Americans as Haendler. Also Carl Schmitt in his book Land und Meer argued that the only way a Meer power can defeat Land power is to use diplomatic tricks to cause a war between two Land powers. To Land civilizations belong Russia, Germany and Rome. To Meer - USA, Britain and Carthage.

If words are not enough for you here is a picture:

http://reverent.org/vasiliev/marshal_zhukov.jpg
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« Reply #140 on: March 24, 2009, 11:56:31 PM »

"Truth"- What is that?
And not realizing the Truth was standing before him.
In Mel Gibson's film he asked "Quid est Veritas?"
And in Bach's Johannes Passion "Was ist Wahrheit?"

But you did not discover Truth by seeing. You might have read the testimonies of Luke, Mark, Mathew and John.

When you look at this picture 



you don't see.

I asked before: can one show me another photo of a dead person which looks like that? Still waiting.
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« Reply #141 on: March 25, 2009, 12:07:28 AM »

"Truth"- What is that?
And not realizing the Truth was standing before him.
In Mel Gibson's film he asked "Quid est Veritas?"
And in Bach's Johannes Passion "Was ist Wahrheit?"

But who asked it first and what was the answer?
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« Reply #142 on: March 25, 2009, 12:38:46 AM »

Gimp and/or Photoshop can bring anyone to life, including the dead.

Edited to remove sarcastic comment.
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« Reply #143 on: March 25, 2009, 01:49:12 AM »

Simkins, if Zoya bit her bottom lip so hard she almost cut through it, according to the accounts on your own website, and in the sites you linked to, then how can you explain the lack of damage to her lip in the photograph, which you delight in posting ad nauseam? And, please, spare us any further nausea if your answer is "a miracle". That simply won't wash, I'm afraid.


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« Reply #144 on: March 25, 2009, 01:53:19 AM »

Now, why would I want to do that?
'cause it's the only way to receive the enchanted forbidden knowledge.
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« Reply #145 on: March 25, 2009, 01:56:49 AM »

You're still not answering ANY of our questions, Simkins. Until you do, there is no point in taking you seriously.
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« Reply #146 on: March 25, 2009, 02:51:00 AM »

I asked before: can one show me another photo of a dead person which looks like that? Still waiting.
Sorry.  I don't see photos of dead people everyday.
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« Reply #147 on: March 25, 2009, 07:56:20 AM »

I would still like Simkins to prove his claim that only Russia played an important role in the ultimate defeat of Germany in WWII, since his assertion has thus far shown a Russophile nationalism that should shade our view of his veneration and advocacy of "Saint" Zoya. 

That's the key thing, IMHO - his Russophilia-Russomania. I don't even call it "nationalism," because it's not. Nationalism is a more rational thing, it's a deep care about someone's nation. The Russomania that is being currently galvanized by the Putinoids is a crazy, insane thing, very similar, if anything, to the appeal of Hitler to the Germans that if you are a true Deutch, you love your Vaterland beyond everything else, even when this love requires a total loss of any humanity, compassion, humility, honesty... They are pulling out from their history everything that has "glorious," upbeat, triumphant obertones in it, be it the defeat of the "Dog Knights" by St. Alexander Nevsky, the crazy march of Peter the "Great" or the Satanic feasting of Lenin and Stalin on human blood. "Jolly good, all for the Empire." And if you object, you are declared a Russophobe. And the enemy is clear (again, just like in Hitler's case). This enemy is the West with its "liberalism" (which is understood not at all like it is understood in the USA, but merely as a world view where one holds anything else - humanity, humility, for example - in a higher regard than the Blood and Soil, the Holy Mother Russia). While the history of Russia is being edited so that everything upbeat and triumphant is pulled out and lifted up, the history of the West is also being edited, in the opposite way: it is presented as only deceit, only meanness, only cruelty, only plans to conquer "our Holy Mother Russia."

I found some videos last night, showing Hitler during his speeches. Poor naive, weak Adolf. Just wait, in a few years the Kremlin midgets will put him to shame. And the West will keep "appeasing," as always...
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« Reply #148 on: March 25, 2009, 03:47:51 PM »

Worse, by his revisionist and blasphemous statements, he has shown not a shred of respect or reverence for genuine saints, nor for Christ, who alone "trampled down death by death", nor of those folks, living or dead, who suffered for the Orthodox faith under Stalinism.
Not "trampled down death by death" but conquerred death by death. To trample is unchristly.
Not Christ alone, but Zoya too. She, like Christ, died for an Idea.

http://www.sovross.ru/old/2005/17/17_3_1.htm

Peter, can we honestly expect that this is possible with this man? After all, in his reply to me has twisted my words to make them mean the complete opposite of what they truly mean.  Just as black is white, and just as night is day.

I did not twist anything, but quoted exactly what you said. You had in mind something like

"Жил на свете рыцарь бедный..." ( Verse no. 9 here http://reverent.org/ru/pushkin_or_not.html )

I replied accordingly. When outwitted, you started to complain.

Here is a letter, only published from the Soviet archives during the glasnost period, written to Stalin in 1937 by a little 12-year-old girl from the countryside. Despite the propaganda of the time, the simple honesty of this little girl makes this letter truly harrowing and moving to read. The little poem at the end is simply gut-wrenching. To me, this letter is perhaps the most eloquent summary of the horrors of Stalinism:.

This could have been interesting then. Not after 1990th period. There were more homeless children in 1995 than in 1945.
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« Reply #149 on: March 25, 2009, 03:56:51 PM »

Simkins, if Zoya bit her bottom lip so hard she almost cut through it, according to the accounts on your own website, and in the sites you linked to, then how can you explain the lack of damage to her lip in the photograph,
Don't recall such an account

"When the interrogation was over Zoya had a large purple-black bruise on her forehead, and weals on her arms and legs. She was breathing heavily. She was half undressed and barefoot. The girl's hands were bound behind her. Her lips were bloody and swollen. She had evidently bitten them for not to cry."

http://reverent.org/zoya/martyrdom.html

which you delight in posting ad nauseam? And, please, spare us any further nausea
My Beloved causes nausea in you? Why? I think that She is very beautiful.

if your answer is "a miracle". That simply won't wash, I'm afraid.
So you don't beleive in miracles after all.
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« Reply #150 on: March 25, 2009, 04:00:55 PM »

This could have been interesting then. Not after 1990th period. There were more homeless children in 1995 than in 1945.

Would you please give some source for that statement? On what do you base this statement?  And if it's a percentage, then since there are more human beings alive on Earth now then in 1945, the statement may be true but not mean much without some context.  That Stalin caused the famine in the Ukraine is a matter of historical record and that letter is from a real child who suffered from that action.  So that you may not find it interesting does not negate that the child once lived and that her life was torn apart.

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« Reply #151 on: March 25, 2009, 04:04:55 PM »

Worse, by his revisionist and blasphemous statements, he has shown not a shred of respect or reverence for genuine saints, nor for Christ, who alone "trampled down death by death", nor of those folks, living or dead, who suffered for the Orthodox faith under Stalinism.
Not "trampled down death by death" but conquerred death by death. To trample is unchristly.
Says who?  The English translation of the Paschal Troparion that I've heard so many sing, and that LBK cited, speaks of Christ "trampling" down death by death.  Are you now going to take issue with the language of our hymnography?

Not Christ alone, but Zoya too. She, like Christ, died for an Idea.

http://www.sovross.ru/old/2005/17/17_3_1.htm
Christ didn't die for an idea.  He died to save the human race.

Peter, can we honestly expect that this is possible with this man? After all, in his reply to me has twisted my words to make them mean the complete opposite of what they truly mean.  Just as black is white, and just as night is day.

I did not twist anything, but quoted exactly what you said.
You can quote someone verbatim and still miss his point entirely.

You had in mind something like

"Жил на свете рыцарь бедный..." ( Verse no. 9 here http://reverent.org/ru/pushkin_or_not.html )

I replied accordingly. When outwitted, you started to complain.
But when you say, "You had in mind...", are you not interpreting what LBK's words mean rather than letting LBK tell you what he wants them to mean?

Here is a letter, only published from the Soviet archives during the glasnost period, written to Stalin in 1937 by a little 12-year-old girl from the countryside. Despite the propaganda of the time, the simple honesty of this little girl makes this letter truly harrowing and moving to read. The little poem at the end is simply gut-wrenching. To me, this letter is perhaps the most eloquent summary of the horrors of Stalinism:.

This could have been interesting then. Not after 1990th period. There were more homeless children in 1995 than in 1945.

Irrelevant.  LBK is not comparing the number of homeless in 1995 to the number of homeless in 1945.
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« Reply #152 on: March 25, 2009, 04:36:48 PM »

Says who?  The English translation of the Paschal Troparion that I've heard so many sing, and that LBK cited, speaks of Christ "trampling" down death by death.  Are you now going to take issue with the language of our hymnography?
Says me. How many people did sing it? There are not many English-speaking Pravoslavny. Two hundred and fifty thousands people  took my "True art, or fake?" quiz that I mentioned earlier in this thread. Can I have my opinion?

In one article, written in Russian, I quoted Nabokov. I myself translated the passage from English. The editor pointed out that my translation differs from the official translation (made by Nabokov himself). Nonetheless, my translation was published, because it was better.

Christ didn't die for an idea.  He died to save the human race.
That was a very honorable idea.

You can quote someone verbatim and still miss his point entirely.
I got his point exactly.

But when you say, "You had in mind...", are you not interpreting what LBK's words mean rather than letting LBK tell you what he wants them to mean?
If he had in mind not that, then what?

Irrelevant.  LBK is not comparing the number of homeless in 1995 to the number of homeless in 1945.
He was using that letter to condemn the whole epoch.
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« Reply #153 on: March 25, 2009, 04:44:53 PM »

which you delight in posting ad nauseam? And, please, spare us any further nausea
My Beloved causes nausea in you? Why? I think that She is very beautiful.
No, LBK did not say that your beloved nauseates him.  He said that your infatuation nauseates him.  See the difference?

if your answer is "a miracle". That simply won't wash, I'm afraid.
So you don't beleive in miracles after all.
LOGICAL FALLACY:  Straw man generalization.
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« Reply #154 on: March 25, 2009, 04:48:57 PM »

Says who?  The English translation of the Paschal Troparion that I've heard so many sing, and that LBK cited, speaks of Christ "trampling" down death by death.  Are you now going to take issue with the language of our hymnography?
Says me. How many people did sing it? There are not many English-speaking Pravoslavny. Two hundred and fifty thousands people  took my "True art, or fake?" quiz that I mentioned earlier in this thread. Can I have my opinion?
It's fine to have your own opinion, but it's not okay to correct someone's language because it disagrees with your opinion.

You can quote someone verbatim and still miss his point entirely.
I got his point exactly.
Let's let LBK be the judge of whether you got his point or not.

But when you say, "You had in mind...", are you not interpreting what LBK's words mean rather than letting LBK tell you what he wants them to mean?
If he had in mind not that, then what?
Let's let LBK tell you what he had in mind.

Irrelevant.  LBK is not comparing the number of homeless in 1995 to the number of homeless in 1945.
He was using that letter to condemn the whole epoch.
Let's let LBK tell you why he used that letter.
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« Reply #155 on: March 25, 2009, 04:50:57 PM »

There are not many English-speaking Pravoslavny.
Could you give your evidence for this?
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« Reply #156 on: March 25, 2009, 05:07:30 PM »

There are not many English-speaking Pravoslavny.
Could you give your evidence for this?

I'd bet that there are something between 10 and 20 million English-speaking Orthodox.
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« Reply #157 on: March 25, 2009, 05:28:00 PM »

There are not many English-speaking Pravoslavny.
Could you give your evidence for this?

I'd bet that there are something between 10 and 20 million English-speaking Orthodox.

Including kekoimimenous? Grin
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« Reply #158 on: March 25, 2009, 09:50:03 PM »

Simkins, Have we been subjects of academic experimentation?
Yeah. The working hypothesis is that negative attitude towards Zoya is caused by personal cowardice. It is not merely my opinion. The same idea was expressed in the film

http://rutube.ru/tracks/500804.html?v=e37a4149151cd1bc5526976822555ed5

Cowards defamed Zoya to justify their own miserable behavior in similar circumstances.

To check the hypothesis one needs a scientific method for measuring cowardice. I was considering different methods  and finally settled with this. Bring the subject to the top of a 100+ high feet building and see how close he can come to the edge of the roof. Cowardice is measured in feet. There is certain arbitrarity in chosing this particular method, but I am attracted by its simplicity. Moreover it is evident that this measure will correlate very strongly with other characteristics like ability to ski at highway speeds or behaviour during meeting a bear in the woods. Now is the time to collect the data.
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« Reply #159 on: March 25, 2009, 09:52:53 PM »

Not Christ alone, but Zoya too. She, like Christ, died for an Idea.

Huh Christ did not die for an Idea.

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« Reply #160 on: March 25, 2009, 10:59:25 PM »

No, LBK did not say that your beloved nauseates him.  He said that your infatuation nauseates him.  
Should I divert myself with one of those?



It's fine to have your own opinion, but it's not okay to correct someone's language because it disagrees with your opinion.
It's OK when my opinion is the right one.
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« Reply #161 on: March 25, 2009, 11:26:36 PM »

Simkins, Have we been subjects of academic experimentation?
Yeah. The working hypothesis is that negative attitude towards Zoya is caused by personal cowardice. It is not merely my opinion. The same idea was expressed in the film

http://rutube.ru/tracks/500804.html?v=e37a4149151cd1bc5526976822555ed5

Cowards defamed Zoya to justify their own miserable behavior in similar circumstances.

To check the hypothesis one needs a scientific method for measuring cowardice. I was considering different methods  and finally settled with this. Bring the subject to the top of a 100+ high feet building and see how close he can come to the edge of the roof. Cowardice is measured in feet. There is certain arbitrarity in chosing this particular method, but I am attracted by its simplicity. Moreover it is evident that this measure will correlate very strongly with other characteristics like ability to ski at highway speeds or behaviour during meeting a bear in the woods. Now is the time to collect the data.

Complete and utter tripe, Simkins, and you know it. You have shown a great degree of cowardice yourself in hiding behind the skirts of your blinkered, rabid, neocommunist Russophilia. Your grasp of history is woeful and distorted, and your insistence that Zoya should be canonised is utterly blasphemous, and a gross insult to the genuine saints (the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia) and laymen who truly suffered greatly for their Orthodox faith, often to the point of death, under Stalinism. Zoya died for Stalin and what he stood for, not for God or Christ.

When the Patriarch of Moscow was approached a few years ago to consider the glorification as a saint of Tsar Ivan Grozny, his response was brief, and very telling. He stated that Hieromartyr Philip, Metropolitan of Moscow, among others, had been murdered on the order of the Tsar. If Tsar Ivan, the perpetrator of the death of St Philip, were made a saint, then it would be necessary to "uncanonise" St Philip. You cannot recognise as saints both the victim and the perpetrator of such injustice. The "idea" that Zoya died for was the communist, Stalinist ideal, which was, by definition, atheist. She did not die for the salvation of mankind, whereas Christ, the Son of God, did. To canonise Zoya would be to spit in the faces and on the graves of the New Martyrs.

As for your cheap shot at established Orthodox hymnography and its use in English of the word "trample", here are the texts in Slavonic and Greek of the troparion for the Resurrection:

Христос воскресе из мертвых, смертию смерть поправ, и сущим во гробех живот даровав.

Χριστός ανέστη εκ νεκρών, θανάτω θάνατον πατήσας, καί τοίς εν τοίς μνήμασι, ζωήν χαρισάμενος.

Simkins, I dare you to honestly translate the word поправ (poprav) as anything other than trample or step upon. The same goes for πατήσας (patisas).




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« Reply #162 on: March 26, 2009, 12:37:33 AM »

Quote
What is the glaring difference between the life and death of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya, compared with, say, the life and death of Evgeniy Rodionov, the 19-year-old conscript who was sent to Chechnya in 1996?

We're still waiting for your answer to the above question, that is, if you have the guts and honesty to answer it.
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« Reply #163 on: March 26, 2009, 12:53:47 AM »

Complete and utter tripe, Simkins, and you know it. You have shown a great degree of cowardice yourself in hiding behind the skirts of your blinkered, rabid, neocommunist Russophilia.
A coward is a person, whose week nerves render him unable to face danger. The Russian word for coward is трус, which can be literally translated as trembler (and this word is sometimes used in English to describe a coward). Etimologically it is derived from the word tremble which relates to shaking of limbs, which a coward experiences in the moment of danger. Thats the real meaning of the word.

 
Your grasp of history is woeful and distorted, and your insistence that Zoya should be canonised is utterly blasphemous, and a gross insult to the genuine saints (the New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia)
There was not such a heroine like Zoya in the whole world  for 500 years (since Jeanne d'Arc). Thus to be in the same cathegory with her is not an insult but a great honour.

 
Zoya died for Stalin and what he stood for, not for God or Christ.)
She said "I am happy to die for my people". Which includes you (or, may be, not?)

When the Patriarch of Moscow was approached a few years ago to consider the glorification as a saint of Tsar Ivan Grozny, his response was brief, and very telling. He stated that Hieromartyr Philip, Metropolitan of Moscow, among others, had been murdered on the order of the Tsar. If Tsar Ivan, the perpetrator of the death of St Philip, were made a saint, then it would be necessary to "uncanonise" St Philip.

Actually Grozny is a local saint in Moscow Eparchia. There is an image of him with an aureola  in Granovita hall in Kremlin

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/6/68/Ivan_Groznyi.jpg

You cannot recognise as saints both the victim and the perpetrator of such injustice. The "idea" that Zoya died for was the communist, Stalinist ideal, which was, by definition, atheist. She did not die for the salvation of mankind, whereas Christ, the Son of God, did.

What is that? Did Zoya kill Philip? She was an angel. She lived a sinless life.

To canonise Zoya would be to spit in the faces and on the graves of the New Martyrs.

Or, may be, canonization of Nicolai II was it? Maxim Shevchenko thinks that he (but not his family!) deserved to be executed

http://www.echo.msk.ru/programs/personalno/566020-echo/

 

As for your cheap shot at established Orthodox hymnography and its use in English of the word "trample", here are the texts in Slavonic and Greek of the troparion for the Resurrection:

Христос воскресе из мертвых, смертию смерть поправ, и сущим во гробех живот даровав.

Χριστός ανέστη εκ νεκρών, θανάτω θάνατον πατήσας, καί τοίς εν τοίς μνήμασι, ζωήν χαρισάμενος.

Simkins, I dare you to honestly translate the word поправ (poprav) as anything other than trample or step upon. The same goes for πατήσας (patisas).

And how will you translate паршивый? Mangy? I would translate it as lousy (which literally means вшивый, but used the same way as паршивый in Russian).

I gave you translation - conquered. Another - defeated. One more - overcame. All of them  better then trampled. 

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« Reply #164 on: March 26, 2009, 01:30:02 AM »


As for your cheap shot at established Orthodox hymnography and its use in English of the word "trample", here are the texts in Slavonic and Greek of the troparion for the Resurrection:

Христос воскресе из мертвых, смертию смерть поправ, и сущим во гробех живот даровав.

Χριστός ανέστη εκ νεκρών, θανάτω θάνατον πατήσας, καί τοίς εν τοίς μνήμασι, ζωήν χαρισάμενος.

Simkins, I dare you to honestly translate the word поправ (poprav) as anything other than trample or step upon. The same goes for πατήσας (patisas).



While I do not speak Greek, I worked as an interpreter and translator from Ukrainian and Russian to English. Hereby I second LBK's conclusions.

And I support LBK's conclusions beyond the issue of the translation.
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« Reply #165 on: March 26, 2009, 01:56:12 AM »

She said "I am happy to die for my people". Which includes you (or, may be, not?)


For an idea, for Soviet people, but not for Christ. The issue is closed.

Actually Grozny is a local saint in Moscow Eparchia. There is an image of him with an aureola  in Granovita hall in Kremlin

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/6/68/Ivan_Groznyi.jpg
Actually, not true. An image is not an official document.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81_%D0%BE_%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%93%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE
Несмотря на то, что священноначалие РПЦ и большинство мирян категорически высказалось против канонизации Грозного, в некоторых кругах Иоанн Васильевич Грозный считается малочисленной группой энтузиастов местночтимым cвятым Московской епархии

Translation:
Regardless from what the Hierarchy of Russian Orthodox Church and the majority of the laity spoke against canonization of Grozny, in some circles Ioan Vasilievich Grozny is considered a local Saint of Moscow Diocese by a small group of enthusiasts.

End of translation.

Canonization of others is not a sole reason to canonize someone else. 

Guys, we are dealing with Brother Nathanael Act 2.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8698.0.html
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« Reply #166 on: March 26, 2009, 02:00:37 AM »

And I suppose you're unbiased.
Nobody yet accused me of germanophobia. 
Actually in one article about my research they wrote

Schön ist natürlich an der russischen Promotion für Manfred von Richthofen und Co.

http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/15/15884/1.html
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« Reply #167 on: March 26, 2009, 02:33:34 AM »

No, LBK did not say that your beloved nauseates him.  He said that your infatuation nauseates him.  
Should I divert myself with one of those?


Ya know, I thought only spoiled brats made such stupid faces.  I don't take you to be a spoiled brat, so why do you behave like one?

It's fine to have your own opinion, but it's not okay to correct someone's language because it disagrees with your opinion.
It's OK when my opinion is the right one.
You missed your calling. laugh  You would do much better demonstrating logical fallacies, since you're so full of them.  For instance, the bare assertion fallacy that I just quoted above.  IOW, merely saying something is so don't make it so.  What outside source says your opinion of "trampling down death by death" is right?  The same goes for your assertion that Zoya is a saint.

In general, your inability to formulate a cogent argument and your way of dodging questions by derailing this thread with so many tangents is extremely juvenile.  Do you really want to be seen as juvenile?  Or do you want people to respect you as a mature adult?
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« Reply #168 on: March 26, 2009, 02:35:37 AM »

Schön ist natürlich an der russischen Promotion für Manfred von Richthofen und Co.

http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/15/15884/1.html
I'm not bilingual, so you're going to have to translate that to English.  Besides, I think you've already been told that anything you post in a foreign language outside of our foreign language boards needs to have an English translation attached.
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« Reply #169 on: March 26, 2009, 02:37:45 AM »

Don't mean to sound disrespectful but... four pages of bickering about this?  Really?  Wow.
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« Reply #170 on: March 26, 2009, 03:00:38 AM »

Don't mean to sound disrespectful but... four pages of bickering about this?  Really?  Wow.
Would you rather that Simkin's infantile infatuation with "Saint" Zoya go unchallenged?  Would our silence do anything to snap him out of his delusion?
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« Reply #171 on: March 26, 2009, 03:24:28 AM »

Would you rather that Simkin's infantile infatuation with "Saint" Zoya go unchallenged?  Would our silence do anything to snap him out of his delusion?

Peter, Simkins has been challenged to come up with the goods time and time again, yet he refuses to engage in anything resembling rational discourse. So where do we go from here?
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« Reply #172 on: March 26, 2009, 03:48:05 AM »

Actually, not true. An image is not an official document.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81_%D0%BE_%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%93%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE
Несмотря на то, что священноначалие РПЦ и большинство мирян категорически высказалось против канонизации Грозного, в некоторых кругах Иоанн Васильевич Грозный считается малочисленной группой энтузиастов местночтимым cвятым Московской епархии

Translation:
Regardless from what the Hierarchy of Russian Orthodox Church and the majority of the laity spoke against canonization of Grozny, in some circles Ioan Vasilievich Grozny is considered a local Saint of Moscow Diocese by a small group of enthusiasts.
An image in Granovita Hall in Kremlin is more of an official document than wikipedia. Just because not everyone can paint what he wants in Granovita, but anyone can edit wikipedia.

Ivan Grozny was officially canonized by Moscow Eparchy. The "small group" includes the famous singer Janna Bichevskaya

Here is her song about Ivan Grozny http://www.artistka.ru/hrani/AudioTrack%2004.mp3

more songs here http://www.artistka.ru/hrani.html
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« Reply #173 on: March 26, 2009, 03:50:04 AM »

Don't mean to sound disrespectful but... four pages of bickering about this?  Really?  Wow.
Would you rather that Simkin's infantile infatuation with "Saint" Zoya go unchallenged?  Would our silence do anything to snap him out of his delusion?
Hmm.  Are you telling me that you've finally changed his mind after challenging him?  Cuz 4 pages into it, I'm not getting that.  I've just never seen an argument go anywhere or change anything, that's all.  Believe me, when I was a Muslim, all I did was argue with Christians.  I even became the president of the local Muslim Students Assoc and held huge lectures on campus.  Guess how many I was able to convert by constantly bickering and arguing?  Zero.  Believe me, you won't change anyone's mind by arguing or challenging as you put it.  It's just a huge wast of time and energy regardless of who's right.  
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« Reply #174 on: March 26, 2009, 04:22:50 AM »

Don't mean to sound disrespectful but... four pages of bickering about this?  Really?  Wow.
Would you rather that Simkin's infantile infatuation with "Saint" Zoya go unchallenged?  Would our silence do anything to snap him out of his delusion?
Hmm.  Are you telling me that you've finally changed his mind after challenging him?  Cuz 4 pages into it, I'm not getting that.  I've just never seen an argument go anywhere or change anything, that's all.  Believe me, when I was a Muslim, all I did was argue with Christians.  I even became the president of the local Muslim Students Assoc and held huge lectures on campus.  Guess how many I was able to convert by constantly bickering and arguing?  Zero.  Believe me, you won't change anyone's mind by arguing or challenging as you put it.  It's just a huge wast of time and energy regardless of who's right.  
You really think I'm going to give up so soon because you don't see this argument going anywhere?  Who knows what seed it might plant for later germination?  There may be more to this argument that you're not seeing, so I encourage you to just relax and let us continue this discussion until we see fit to give up. Wink
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« Reply #175 on: March 26, 2009, 04:48:01 AM »

Ivan Grozny was officially canonized by Moscow Eparchy.

Complete and utter nonsense. The Moscow Patriarchate has steadfastly refused to canonise Ivan IV, and rightly so. This is a matter of public and historical record, so there's no use trying to argue otherwise. Ivan's name does not appear on any Orthodox calendar or list of Orthodox saints, Russian, Muscovite, or otherwise. There is no feastday appointed for Ivan IV, for the simple reason that he has never been recognised as a saint.

The vigil service (Vespers and Matins) for Hieromartyr Philip of Moscow (feastday January 9) refers to the tsar as a "new Herod" and a "new Pharaoh". Are these words which describe a saint?
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« Reply #176 on: March 26, 2009, 04:58:43 AM »

Certainly not in my estimation.

Debunking greatly appreciated. Thank you.
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« Reply #177 on: March 26, 2009, 07:43:10 AM »



Christ didn't die for an idea.  He died to save the human race.
That was a very honorable idea.

That's where you are very wrong, theologically. You obviously aren't properly catechized. Do take a class. Do read some good literature, for example this,

http://www.wco.ru/biblio/books/ioannd2/Main.htm

http://www.wco.ru/biblio/books/lossky2/Main.htm

http://www.wco.ru/biblio/books/florov2/Main.htm

http://www.wco.ru/biblio/books/sacrifice/Main.htm

To say that Christ died for "a very honorable idea" is to trivialize the Incarnation and the redemption of the humanity...

BTW, does your parish priest know about your campaign for canonization of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya? I would be very interested in getting to know him and in corresponding with him. Please write me privately and give me his coordinates!
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« Reply #178 on: March 26, 2009, 12:30:10 PM »

so I encourage you to just relax and let us continue this discussion until we see fit to give up. Wink
You got it, bro.  Smiley  BTW, though, I'm probably the most relaxed and laid back person you'll ever talk to.  I am from the Ozarks after all.  Cheesy
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« Reply #179 on: March 26, 2009, 05:06:57 PM »

Ivan Grozny was officially canonized by Moscow Eparchy.

Complete and utter nonsense. The Moscow Patriarchate has steadfastly refused to canonise Ivan IV, and rightly so.
Not by Patriarchate but by Eparchy. Местночтимый московский святой. My source is Janna Bichevskaya radio programme  where she clearly stated that. It is archived somewhere on her website. Do you suggest that Peoples Artist of Russia Janna Bichevskaya is a liar?
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« Reply #180 on: March 26, 2009, 05:12:52 PM »

when I was a Muslim, all I did was argue with Christians.
Have you also tried Druidism? Or that heathenish religion practiced by the brewers of Heather Ale?

I think that you will end up as a Freemason. Thats how all the folks like yourself end up.
 The Moderators and Administrators have been very patient with you since you were a newcomer to the forum, but you are now being placed on an official warning for this type of uncalled for attack on fellow posters. If this posting behaviour continues, you will be placed on post moderation, and if it continues further, you will be banned.

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« Reply #181 on: March 26, 2009, 06:27:03 PM »

Ivan Grozny was officially canonized by Moscow Eparchy.

Complete and utter nonsense. The Moscow Patriarchate has steadfastly refused to canonise Ivan IV, and rightly so.
Not by Patriarchate but by Eparchy. Местночтимый московский святой. My source is Janna Bichevskaya radio programme  where she clearly stated that. It is archived somewhere on her website. Do you suggest that Peoples Artist of Russia Janna Bichevskaya is a liar?

Until you can provide proof that Tsar Ivan IV is listed as a saint in any canonical Orthodox calendar, provide proof of a feast-day appointed for him, and a vigil service written for him, then yes, Janna Bichevskaya is not telling the truth. So she has praised Ivan Grozny in her quasi-religious, nationalistic songs. So what? That hardly means that the man is a saint. Who has the authority to proclaim sainthood - a singer, a revisionist nationalist (like yourself), or the Russian Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #182 on: March 26, 2009, 06:46:21 PM »

I think that you will end up as a Freemason. Thats how all the folks like yourself end up.

Ah, the refuge of a scoundrel. When you can't win the argument by honest discourse, resort to personal attack. Nice. Very brave. Very manly. Your colors are showing more and more, Simkins.
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« Reply #183 on: March 26, 2009, 06:52:59 PM »

deleted by user.  the purple demons had me for a moment.
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« Reply #184 on: March 26, 2009, 07:11:30 PM »

when I was a Muslim, all I did was argue with Christians.
Have you also tried Druidism? Or that heathenish religion practiced by the brewers of Heather Ale?

I think that you will end up as a Freemason. Thats how all the folks like yourself end up.

1. You do not know Gabriel, and, therefore, you have no right to classify him as a person who is "like so-and-so."

2. I agree with LBK above that this is a pure undiluted ad hominem attack that has exactly nothing to do with issues discussed in this thread.
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« Reply #185 on: March 26, 2009, 07:19:13 PM »

The problem with Simkins is that he is quite eager to "fight dirty", yet, we who disagree with him, and have questioned at length his motives and viewpoints, are obliged (by our own sense of what's right, and through this forum's rules) to "play fair". But "the truth will out", as the old saying goes. Yet again, Simkins has shown his cowardice at answering straight questions challenging his views.
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« Reply #186 on: March 26, 2009, 10:06:05 PM »

Ask everyone to take a breather and I get called a druid and a freemason?!  Gosh, tough crowd!  Cheesy 





But seriously... please forgive me if I offended anyone.  Smiley
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« Reply #187 on: March 26, 2009, 10:09:48 PM »

You mean you got the 'third degree'?   laugh
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« Reply #188 on: March 26, 2009, 10:21:26 PM »

You should all know by now that Simkins is utterly childish and immature in his crusades re Zoya, revisionist nationalism, and in refusing to answer to any sensible degree any of our legitimate questions. So, Gabriel, to be branded a possible Druid and a potential Freemason by this man should be a badge of courage, not an insult. Small men resort to personal attacks, real men argue their case with dignity and proper reason.  Cool
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