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Author Topic: Should Kosmodemyanskaya become Saint Zoya?  (Read 23600 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 10, 2009, 12:27:48 AM »

Should Russian Orthodox Church canonize Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya?
What do you think?

Some info about Zoya here: Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya (1923-1941)

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« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2009, 02:42:53 AM »

As tragic and brutal was Zoya's death, the question must be asked: Did she suffer and die in defence of the Orthodox faith? According to the account of her life, this does not seem to be the case. Rather, it seems to me that she died defending the ideals of the soviet state into which she was born, and which she served, most bravely, I might add.
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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2009, 08:16:58 AM »

I think the answer is "absolutely not." There were many young and older people, both men and women, who committed acts of sabotage against the German army during the invasion of the USSR in 1941-44. Similarly, there were many Germans and German sympathizers who committed acts of sabotage against the Soviets. When they were caught by the side against whom they committed sabotage, they were very often brutally tortured and then executed. While this is abominable and I have pity to all people who were tortured, I don't see how this can be a reason for canonization.

BTW, what kind of Web site is this? The music that they play, the tune of the song "Orlyonok" ("Little Eagle") was a propagandist Young Communist League song, kind of like "Horst Wessel" was the theme song of the SS and Hitlerugend.
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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2009, 10:51:19 PM »

As tragic and brutal was Zoya's death, the question must be asked: Did she suffer and die in defence of the Orthodox faith? According to the account of her life, this does not seem to be the case. Rather, it seems to me that she died defending the ideals of the soviet state into which she was born, and which she served, most bravely, I might add.
If to judge formally (like bishops and scribes do) then no, if to judge essentially then yes.

BTW, what do you think of the canonization of the last Tzar and his family? Did they die for the faith or for the country? They were ready to go to Britain, but were not accepted there. Grand princesses sewed diamonds into their closes and  screamed with horror when they were shot  (according to one TV program I saw on Russian Orthodox (Pravoslavny) channel).

I hope you understand me correctly: I do not justify the murder of the Romanovs by the admirers of Heine's poetry. I think it was a crime. Just hiding diamonds and screaming does not correspond with the image of a holy martyr that I have.

I think that there would be much more truth in canonizing  Zoya, than there was in canonizing Romanov's. In other topics in this forum there are complaints that religion is losing its ground. It is because of the luck of the truth, because of corruption.
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« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 11:14:15 PM »

BTW, what do you think of the canonization of the last Tzar and his family? Did they die for the faith or for the country? They were ready to go to Britain, but were not accepted there. Grand princesses sewed diamonds into their closes and  screamed with horror when they were shot  (according to one TV program I saw on Russian Orthodox (Pravoslavny) channel).

I hope you understand me correctly: I do not justify the murder of the Romanovs by the admirers of Heine's poetry. I think it was a crime. Just hiding diamonds and screaming does not correspond with the image of a holy martyr that I have.

The imperial family was murdered as a deliberate political act to show the repudiation of monarchy, religion and Orthodoxy by the Bolshevik regime. The tsars of the Russian empire regarded themselves as the spiritual and temporal successors of the Byzantine emperors. Moscow had styled itself "the Third Rome" following the fall of Constantinople in 1453. The word tsar is derived from Caesar, and the city of Constantinople was often called Tsargrad (Caesar's City) by Russians instead of Konstantinopol'. At his coronation, the tsar would be vested in Byzantine-style robes, and would be anointed by the Patriarch of Moscow. During the ceremony, the tsar would take Holy Communion, not in the nave as a layman, but in the altar, as would a member of the clergy.

The affectionate terms used by the Russian people for their tsar and tsarina were Batiushka (Little Father) and Matushka (Little Mother), the identical terminology used by laymen to this day for a priest and his wife. This is quite deliberate. Of course the people knew full well the tsar was not a clergyman, but the use of such terminology reflected the interrelationship of tsar, Church and people of the empire. Therefore, the assassination of this family was loaded with the symbolism of the "death of religion and the triumph of atheism and Bolshevism". It is for the same reason that the cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow was publicly destroyed on the personal order of Josef Stalin, and the destruction documented in print and on film.

By contrast, we see in the account of the short and unfortunate life of Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya no mention of God, Christ, or faith. She went down fighting, to be sure, but in defence of her country and the Soviet system, not in defence of the Orthodox faith. I suspect this supposed push for her canonisation is not unlike the recent, and unsuccessful, move to have Josef Stalin canonised.
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« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2009, 11:52:15 PM »

As tragic and brutal was Zoya's death, the question must be asked: Did she suffer and die in defence of the Orthodox faith? According to the account of her life, this does not seem to be the case. Rather, it seems to me that she died defending the ideals of the soviet state into which she was born, and which she served, most bravely, I might add.
If to judge formally (like bishops and scribes do) then no, if to judge essentially then yes.

She died essentially for Stalin.  You formally judge like komisars and propogandists.  Whatever serves the Party.

Quote
BTW, what do you think of the canonization of the last Tzar and his family? Did they die for the faith or for the country? They were ready to go to Britain, but were not accepted there. Grand princesses sewed diamonds into their closes and  screamed with horror when they were shot  (according to one TV program I saw on Russian Orthodox (Pravoslavny) channel).

The Imperial family, their English physician stated, had other means to leave the country, but the Tsar decided that the rejection by King George was a sign that they were to remain with the Russian people.

Quote
I hope you understand me correctly: I do not justify the murder of the Romanovs by the admirers of Heine's poetry. I think it was a crime. Just hiding diamonds and screaming does not correspond with the image of a holy martyr that I have.

You judging formally?

Quote
I think that there would be much more truth in canonizing  Zoya, than there was in canonizing Romanov's. In other topics in this forum there are complaints that religion is losing its ground. It is because of the luck of the truth, because of corruption.

Because some people lack discernment.
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« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2009, 09:10:27 AM »

All accounts of the Royal Family in Russia noted their piety and their example of Christian Family life and there are many indications that the Tsar himself declined personal rescue as he did not wish further bloodshed on his account.  there are indications that he knew that he would eventually be killed.  The Tsarina's personal piety is well known and documented by those who knew her.  The children remained pure and devout through out their captivity despite the posting of men who deliberately were vulgar in front of them and tried to degrade them, they held firm to their Orthodox faith to the point of their death.  I doubt any child being shot would not cry out in shock and perhaps fear, but it is noted even among the murder squad that upon realization of what was happening members of the Royal Family crossed themselves and they note that they knew where to go to complete the "coupe de gras" by hearing them pray through their tears.  While many can dispute the actions of the Royal family during their reign, it can truly be said that while imprisoned, they exhibited great faith in the Holy Orthodox Church,developed deeper relationships with their Savior, and exemplified what it means to be a passion-bearer of Christ in their light.  Many who observed this were strengthened in their faith at a time of great adversity.

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« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2009, 08:26:35 PM »

I think the answer is "absolutely not."  There were many young and older people, both men and women, who committed acts of sabotage against the German army during the invasion of the USSR in 1941-44. Similarly, there were many Germans and German sympathizers who committed acts of sabotage against the Soviets. When they were caught by the side against whom they committed sabotage, they were very often brutally tortured and then executed. While this is abominable and I have pity to all people who were tortured, I don't see how this can be a reason for canonization.

Really? A lot of people were crucified in Roman Empire as well.

Zoya is not remembered for being tortured and killed. She is remembered because she did not betray neither her comrades nor her suffering by a singe cry.  And for saying a speech with a noose around her neck.

Please reserve your pity for the reporters from conservative Fox news, who converted to Islam  and for WSJ reporter, who was not offered such an opportunity.

Our Zoya is a saint and lives with God and does not need yor pity.

BTW, what kind of Web site is this? The music that they play, the tune of the song "Orlyonok" ("Little Eagle") was a propagandist Young Communist League song, kind of like "Horst Wessel" was the theme song of the SS and Hitlerugend.
I found the "Horst Wessel"  song

http://www.imeem.com/djdrouch/music/HcSWY39h/horst-wessel-horst-wessel-lied-19331945/

From musical perspective. Orlyonok is much better.

Don't have time to study the story behind it. But if his people wrote a song about Horst he could have deserved it. But one certainly can't write a song about McCain

http://buchanan.org/blog/mccain-war-hero-1043
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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2009, 03:59:50 AM »

Quote
Really? A lot of people were crucified in Roman Empire as well.


And a very great number of them were crucified because they refused to renounce their Christian faith.

Quote
Zoya is not remembered for being tortured and killed. She is remembered because she did not betray neither her comrades nor her suffering by a single cry.  And for saying a speech with a noose around her neck.

But, I ask again, did she die in defence of the Orthodox faith?

Quote
Our Zoya is a saint and lives with God and does not need yor pity.

So you know the mind of God, do you? That's wonderful news. Please share your secret with us.
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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2009, 07:13:22 PM »

The word tsar is derived from Caesar
Just like Keiser. What of it?

The affectionate terms used by the Russian people for their tsar and tsarina were Batiushka (Little Father) and Matushka (Little Mother),
Did you read to much of George Orwell?

Batiushka and Matushka are in the same relation with batia and mat' as Daddy and Mommy are with Dad and Mom. Father and Mother do not have similar forms. Therefore the best translation of  Batiushka and Matushka is father and mother. At least this does not look idiotic.

BTW, the last matushka spoke Russian with an accent. So, perhaps, Mutter would have been more appropriate. Before that batyushka Pyotr I abolished Patriarchy and matushka (mutter) Ekaterina II paticipated in the plot to kill batyushka Pyotr III.

the identical terminology used by laymen to this day for a priest and his wife.

There is one pravoslavnaya singer matushka Ludmila. This is, probably, the strongest of her songs

http://files.predanie.ru/music/Kononova_Lujdmila/03_Ja_Shla_Nerovno.mp3

The song is good. But compare it to Orlyonok

http://download.sovmusic.ru/m/orlenok.mp3

And you will find no modern pravoslavny song which could match Orlyonok. Think: why?

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« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2009, 12:56:41 AM »

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But, I ask again, did she die in defence of the Orthodox faith?

Was she Orthodox at all? It says on the webpage:

Quote
Kosmodemyansky family name was constructed by joining the names of Saints Cosmas and Damian (Kosma and Demyan in Russian). Kosmodemyansky were priests of Russian Orthodox Church since 17th century. Zoya's grandfather Saint Pyotr1 Kosmodemyansky was murdered in 1918 by militant godless for his opposition to blasphemy. There had been rumors that before his martyrdom he spoke of coming of two angels, who will try to set people in the right way, but in vain.

Zoya2 was born in 1923 in the village of Osinovy Guy3, not far from the city of Tambov. Her father, Anatoly Kosmodemyansky, studied in a theological seminary, but did not graduate. He later worked as a librarian. Her mother, Lyubov Kosmodemyanskaya (maiden name Churikova), was a school teacher. In 1925 Zoya's brother Alexander was born. Like his sister, he was destined to become Hero of Soviet Union, and, like Zoya, posthumously. In 1929 the family moved to Siberia for fear of persecution. In 1930 they moved to Moscow.

So her parents were Orthodox apparently.
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« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2009, 06:48:30 PM »

it is noted even among the murder squad that upon realization of what was happening members of the Royal Family crossed themselves
Thats amazing. I cllimbed mt. Whitney in January and on the few feet wide path there was a 20 feet long part covered by  snow which layed at a 45 degree angle. The pass was bound by a wall and a two hundred feet vertical fall. I crossed myself before crossing the dangerous place. If I fell, would I become eligible for canonization?
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« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2009, 10:47:35 PM »

Quote
But, I ask again, did she die in defence of the Orthodox faith?

Was she Orthodox at all? It says on the webpage:

Quote
Kosmodemyansky family name was constructed by joining the names of Saints Cosmas and Damian (Kosma and Demyan in Russian). Kosmodemyansky were priests of Russian Orthodox Church since 17th century. Zoya's grandfather Saint Pyotr1 Kosmodemyansky was murdered in 1918 by militant godless for his opposition to blasphemy. There had been rumors that before his martyrdom he spoke of coming of two angels, who will try to set people in the right way, but in vain.

Zoya2 was born in 1923 in the village of Osinovy Guy3, not far from the city of Tambov. Her father, Anatoly Kosmodemyansky, studied in a theological seminary, but did not graduate. He later worked as a librarian. Her mother, Lyubov Kosmodemyanskaya (maiden name Churikova), was a school teacher. In 1925 Zoya's brother Alexander was born. Like his sister, he was destined to become Hero of Soviet Union, and, like Zoya, posthumously. In 1929 the family moved to Siberia for fear of persecution. In 1930 they moved to Moscow.

So her parents were Orthodox apparently.

God has children.

He has no grandchildren.

it is noted even among the murder squad that upon realization of what was happening members of the Royal Family crossed themselves
Thats amazing. I cllimbed mt. Whitney in January and on the few feet wide path there was a 20 feet long part covered by  snow which layed at a 45 degree angle. The pass was bound by a wall and a two hundred feet vertical fall. I crossed myself before crossing the dangerous place. If I fell, would I become eligible for canonization?

Probably not.

I leave it to you to ponder why not.
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« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2009, 01:27:14 AM »

Because some people lack discernment.
Those who claim highest discernment in art can't tell what they call a masterpiece from a ridiculous fake

http://reverent.org/true_art_or_fake_art.html

Same is true in many other fields.
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« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2009, 01:57:54 AM »

Because some people lack discernment.
Those who claim highest discernment in art can't tell what they call a masterpiece from a ridiculous fake

http://reverent.org/true_art_or_fake_art.html

Same is true in many other fields.


Yes, Snake Oil Salesmen have been around since the Serpent, in all forms and guises.  Like chavinism mistaken for patriotism.
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« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2009, 03:28:54 AM »

Those who claim highest discernment in art can't tell what they call a masterpiece from a ridiculous fake

... and others cannot see the arrant stupidity of commissioning an icon to be painted of a paragon of Soviet virtue.
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« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2009, 03:42:03 AM »

Does anyone know either way whether Zoya was an atheist or is this simply being assumed?
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« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2009, 03:49:38 AM »

Nektarios, you'll find more here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20201.0.html

and here: http://www.greeklish.org/features/zoya/index.htm
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« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2009, 04:00:17 AM »

I'm scanning through the material you linked and I don't see anything that explicitly says that she was an atheist.  Given the loosening on religious persecution during WWII, it is possible that she could have had some sort of religious belief and not seen it as being inconsistent with defending the Soviet State.  Of course, I think canonising her is simply absurd, but I don't know if it is appropriate to call her an atheist without explicit evidence. 
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« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2009, 08:33:49 AM »

I'm scanning through the material you linked and I don't see anything that explicitly says that she was an atheist.  Given the loosening on religious persecution during WWII, it is possible that she could have had some sort of religious belief and not seen it as being inconsistent with defending the Soviet State.  Of course, I think canonising her is simply absurd, but I don't know if it is appropriate to call her an atheist without explicit evidence. 
I"m going by their avoidance of answering the question "was she Orthodox/a believer?" by the principle qui tacit consentit, that she was not.
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« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2009, 03:47:17 PM »

I'm scanning through the material you linked and I don't see anything that explicitly says that she was an atheist.  Given the loosening on religious persecution during WWII, it is possible that she could have had some sort of religious belief and not seen it as being inconsistent with defending the Soviet State.  Of course, I think canonising her is simply absurd, but I don't know if it is appropriate to call her an atheist without explicit evidence. 
I"m going by their avoidance of answering the question "was she Orthodox/a believer?" by the principle qui tacit consentit, that she was not.

Sorry, but that is hardly enough evidence to say with any degree of certainty that should wasn't a believer.  All you are doing is showing your bias against anything to do with the Soviet Union, and your willingness to libel someone without any concrete evidence.   
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« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2009, 06:40:34 PM »

I'm scanning through the material you linked and I don't see anything that explicitly says that she was an atheist.  Given the loosening on religious persecution during WWII, it is possible that she could have had some sort of religious belief and not seen it as being inconsistent with defending the Soviet State.  Of course, I think canonising her is simply absurd, but I don't know if it is appropriate to call her an atheist without explicit evidence. 
I"m going by their avoidance of answering the question "was she Orthodox/a believer?" by the principle qui tacit consentit, that she was not.

Sorry, but that is hardly enough evidence to say with any degree of certainty that should wasn't a believer.
The OP asks "Should Kosmodemyanskaya become Saint Zoya?"  Therefore it is his burden to provide the evidence of her faith, not mine.

Quote
All you are doing is showing your bias against anything to do with the Soviet Union,
Not true, I love Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn.

Quote
and your willingness to libel someone without any concrete evidence.   
Just going by what her hagiographer has offered us.
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« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2009, 07:07:53 PM »

The OP asks "Should Kosmodemyanskaya become Saint Zoya?"  Therefore it is his burden to provide the evidence of her faith, not mine.

Whether Zoya ought to be considered a saint is an entirely separate matter.  I think it is pretty obvious to nearly everyone here that this is not being seriously considered by the Russian Orthodox Church.  I see only a single post call for her canonisation.  It's a dead issue.  On the other hand to publicly proclaim she was an atheist with no evidence is libel.   
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« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2009, 04:41:24 AM »

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The OP asks "Should Kosmodemyanskaya become Saint Zoya?"  Therefore it is his burden to provide the evidence of her faith, not mine.

Quote
and your willingness to libel someone without any concrete evidence.
Quote
Just going by what her hagiographer has offered us.

My thoughts exactly. And the sources Simkins has provided from his own website do not mention anything at all about her living in, or dying for, the Orthodox faith. Or Christ. Or God.

Quote
On the other hand to publicly proclaim she was an atheist with no evidence is libel.   


The accounts of Zoya's life supplied by her ardent supporters make no mention at all of any faith or otherwise. One would think that they would, especially when petitioning the Patriarchate for her sainthood. Ask yourself (or, better still, ask Simkins and his ilk) why such a detail is notably absent from the written record they have provided. 

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« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2009, 09:35:17 AM »


I didn't realize that people got to "choose" whom they wanted to see canonized.

Aren't there proper protocols that need to be adhered to?  Isn't there something about the body being incorruptible and miracles that occur?

Has any of this come to pass?

I think not.

The only One who gets to decide/judge whether or not a person is a "saint" is God Himself...and through His grace are we given the knowledge to recognize those individuals as such.

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« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2009, 10:16:20 AM »


I didn't realize that people got to "choose" whom they wanted to see canonized.

Aren't there proper protocols that need to be adhered to?  Isn't there something about the body being incorruptible and miracles that occur?

Has any of this come to pass?

I think not.

The only One who gets to decide/judge whether or not a person is a "saint" is God Himself...and through His grace are we given the knowledge to recognize those individuals as such.



Excellent post!

what it seems is this is not coming from within the Church, by the Grace in Her to reveal it, but a movement to impose this from without on the Church.

Although miracles and incorrupt relics are nice, they are not required.  Baptism however is, and I don't see any evidence of it here being offered.

The accounts of Zoya's life supplied by her ardent supporters make no mention at all of any faith or otherwise. One would think that they would, especially when petitioning the Patriarchate for her sainthood. Ask yourself (or, better still, ask Simkins and his ilk) why such a detail is notably absent from the written record they have provided.
Their silence is deafening.

Perhaps it can become muting too.
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« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2009, 02:46:35 PM »


This is taken from another thread (Concerning Apostolic Succession)

Dear  Christopher,

Another fascinating example of apostolic succession is that of the Church of Smyrna - fascinating because we not only have the succession right back to Saint Polycarp of Smyrna (martyred for Christ) who was appointed as bishop of Smyrna by Saint John the Evangelist but also because it is a concrete example of New Testament prophecy which is still being fulfilled in our own day!!


You remember what the Spirit said to the Church of Smyrna:

"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

"These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. I know your afflictions and your poverty-yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death. ~Revelation 2:8-11



The Church of Smyrna (now modern Izmir in Turkey) still exists. God is true to His word.

In 1922 a great persecution fell upon Smyrna as the Spirit foretold in Revelation. The Turks killed and martyred nearly all the Christians of Smyrna, burning them and drowning them.

It was shameful that there were American naval ships so close to the shore that they could smell the burning flesh and hear the screams, but they refused to pick up the Christians who tried to escape in small boats. They did not want to offend the Turkish Government.

The Orthodox bishop of Smyrna, Bishop Chrysostom, was killed too..

"On 9 September 1922 crowds were rushing into the cathedral for shelter when Chrysostomos, pale from fasting and lack of sleep, led his last prayer. The Divine Liturgy ended as Turkish police came to the church and led Chrysostomos away. The Turkish General Nouredin Pasha, known as the "butcher of Ionia", first spat on the Metropolitan and informed him that a tribunal in Angora (now Ankara) had already condemned him to death. A mob fell upon Chrysostomos and tore out his eyes. Bleeding profusely, he was dragged through the streets by his beard. He was beaten and kicked and parts of his body were cut off. All the while Chrysostomos, his face covered with blood, prayed: "Holy Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." Every now and then, when he had the strength, he would raise his hand and bless his persecutors; a Turk, realizing what the Metropolitan was doing, cut off his hand with a sword. Metropolitan Chrysostomos was then hacked to pieces by the angry mob."

The mind boggles at the awfulness of it all but roughly 100,000 Orthodox Christians were killed in Smyrna in September 1922.

And yet, glory to God, the Church of Smyrna still survives today. The church of Saint Polycarp is still open and the Christians are still there worshipping God. God has been true to His word about Smyrna for 2000 years.



Now, THIS is an example of dying for one's Faith!


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« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2009, 03:57:26 PM »

Quote
The OP asks "Should Kosmodemyanskaya become Saint Zoya?"  Therefore it is his burden to provide the evidence of her faith, not mine.

Quote
and your willingness to libel someone without any concrete evidence.
Quote
Just going by what her hagiographer has offered us.

My thoughts exactly. And the sources Simkins has provided from his own website do not mention anything at all about her living in, or dying for, the Orthodox faith. Or Christ. Or God.

Quote
On the other hand to publicly proclaim she was an atheist with no evidence is libel.   


The accounts of Zoya's life supplied by her ardent supporters make no mention at all of any faith or otherwise. One would think that they would, especially when petitioning the Patriarchate for her sainthood. Ask yourself (or, better still, ask Simkins and his ilk) why such a detail is notably absent from the written record they have provided.

Again, I agree that she should not be a saint as this is clearly a political stunt.  The most that can be said with any certainty is that it is likely she was not a believer.  Given the time period, one must allow for uncertainty as baptismal records were often not kept for obvious reason.  This was also the time period in the USSR when there was a relaxation on laws against Orthodoxy and Islam.  The observation that there was nothing in her life that indicated any connection to the Orthodox Church ought to be enough, IMO.  Also demeaning her death as a martyrdom for Stalin is a bit harsh.  What should Soviet citizens have done during the War effort - welcomed the Nazis so that they could later be killed as Slavic Untermenschen? 


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« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2009, 04:20:04 PM »

demeaning her death as a martyrdom for Stalin is a bit harsh.  What should Soviet citizens have done during the War effort - welcomed the Nazis so that they could later be killed as Slavic Untermenschen? 

Well, some joined a "third force," like the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (Українська Повстанська Армія, УПА, UPA). The UPA was a colossal force, at the height of its history (early 1944) having in its ranks well over 200,000 men and women - maybe the biggest guerilla force in all of the European history. It fought against Hitler and against Stalin, not distinguishing between the two monsters-enemies, treating them and their armies as occupiers, an obstacle on Ukraine's path to liberty and prosperity.

BTW, a famous Ukrainian film director, Oleksandr Dovzhenko, was shocked when fighters from a pro-Soviet partisan detachment (the Kovpak brigade) shared with him how they treated a captured UPA fighter. They said, laughing, "look, we chained him to a stake and made fire underneath him... and he was already burning, the skin, the fat and all... and he was still shouting, 'Long live Ukraine!' What fool..."

As a Ukrainian, I have a tremendous respect, reverence for heroes like that burned UPA fighter, but I am not campaigning about their canonization...
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« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2009, 07:41:11 PM »

Although miracles and incorrupt relics are nice, they are not required.  Baptism however is, and I don't see any evidence of it here being offered.
Technically, not even baptism is required for glorification as a saint.  For instance, the pagan soldier Aglaius who swam out into the frigid water to die as one of the 40 Holy Martyrs of Sebaste after one of the Christians suffering execution apostatized by swimming to shore.

http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=100706

That said, I see no evidence yet that Kosmodemyanskaya died for faith in Jesus Christ, so I see no reason to glorify her as a martyr of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2009, 09:33:34 PM »

Quote
Alexy made it his personal mission to identify the "new martyrs and confessors"—the victims of communist persecution who, in the eyes of the church, died for their Christian faith. He set aside the fourth Saturday after Easter for a special service to commemorate at least 20,000 "enemies of the Soviet state" who, at the height of the Great Purge of 1937-38, were shot and buried in mass graves just south of Moscow.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/04/orthodox/schmemann-text/6
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« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2009, 04:05:03 AM »

Yes, Snake Oil Salesmen have been around since the Serpent, in all forms and guises.  Like chavinism mistaken for patriotism.
Chauvin, for your information,  was Napoleon's soldier. So Napoleon with a gang of his chauvinists invaded Russia in 1812. But the chauvinists had to run all the way back to Paris.
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« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2009, 08:55:32 AM »

Yes, Snake Oil Salesmen have been around since the Serpent, in all forms and guises.  Like chavinism mistaken for patriotism.
Chauvin, for your information,  was Napoleon's soldier. So Napoleon with a gang of his chauvinists invaded Russia in 1812. But the chauvinists had to run all the way back to Paris.

The name became a label of the extreme, uncritical nationalism, however.
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« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2009, 11:31:02 AM »

Yes, Snake Oil Salesmen have been around since the Serpent, in all forms and guises.  Like chavinism mistaken for patriotism.
Chauvin, for your information,  was Napoleon's soldier. So Napoleon with a gang of his chauvinists invaded Russia in 1812. But the chauvinists had to run all the way back to Paris.
I'm well aware of that.  For one thing, I've actually read "War and Peace."

Btw, what you think of Marx?  Lenin?
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« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2009, 01:03:10 PM »

Btw, what you think of Marx?  Lenin?

Marx: an unrealistic seeker of attention. However, he opposed the death penalty. His evaluation of problems of the society in his period of time included some valid points, but recommendations were in vast majority harmful.

Lenin: one of the worst monsters ever.
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« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2009, 01:22:06 PM »

As for the original question, I am another one to vote "absolutely not". A possible Orthodox background of her ancestors can not be a reason for her canonization.

Furthermore, Zoya violated orders and did not return to the base of rebels and by doing so, she endangered others. She could be easily court marshaled and if she would eventually returned. And in this particular case, that would be really deserved. Furthermore, NKVD's attitudes became famous for their horrors. NKVD always suspected collaboration with enemies. Instead of all countries, even the most heroic POWs were often treated as potential traitors, in many cases they were presumed guilty until proved innocent. Let alone someone, who refused to return to the base in woods.

Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya's last words were: "Stalin will come!" Also, back in late 1980s Moscow-based newspaper Argumenty i fakty (Arguments and Facts) presented allegations about her treatment in a mental hospital prior to World War II.

As it has been stated by others in this thread, there is no evidence neither of her saintly life, nor of her martyrdom for Christ.
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« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2009, 02:41:10 PM »

Lenin: one of the worst monsters ever.

I wonder if Mr. Simkins has read this, and if he has, what is his opinion on this book:

http://lib.ru/PROZA/SOLOUHIN/bylight.txt
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« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2009, 02:56:29 PM »

Lenin: one of the worst monsters ever.

I wonder if Mr. Simkins has read this, and if he has, what is his opinion on this book:

http://lib.ru/PROZA/SOLOUHIN/bylight.txt
Thank you for the link, Heorhij!
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« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2009, 05:47:38 PM »

As for the original question, I am another one to vote "absolutely not". A possible Orthodox background of her ancestors can not be a reason for her canonization.
Orthodox background of her ancestors is not possibe, but proven. And the reason for canonization is not her descendance from the long line of priests, but her heroic martyrdom.

Furthermore, Zoya violated orders and did not return to the base of rebels
Because she was captured by the enemy.

and by doing so, she endangered others. 
As is well known she did not endenger anyone, did not give any information and took all torture herself.

Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya's last words were: "Stalin will come!"
Did not appear in the protocols of first questioning of the witnesses.

Also, back in late 1980s Moscow-based newspaper Argumenty i fakty (Arguments and Facts) presented allegations about her treatment in a mental hospital prior to World War II.
She was treated for meningitis.
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« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2009, 05:52:22 PM »

As for the original question, I am another one to vote "absolutely not". A possible Orthodox background of her ancestors can not be a reason for her canonization.
Orthodox background of her ancestors is not possibe, but proven. And the reason for canonization is not her descendance from the long line of priests, but her heroic martyrdom.

But there is no evidence that she was killed for being a Christian; all evidence points to her being killed for her political allegiance to the USSR. 
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« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2009, 06:12:28 PM »

I didn't realize that people got to "choose" whom they wanted to see canonized.

Бог есть синтетическая личность всего народа --Достоевский

Aren't there proper protocols that need to be adhered to?  Isn't there something about the body being incorruptible and miracles that occur?

Has any of this come to pass?

I think not.

Yes there is something special about her body two month after her death



Have you ever seen another such photo?

And the miracle did occur. The Germans ran all the way back to Berlin, after they already celebrated their victory.
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« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2009, 06:42:04 PM »

With all due respect to the soldiers who bravely fought against the German Wermacht near Moscow in November-December 1941, the German retreat was hardly a miracle. The Wermacht was completely unprepared to fight in winter, at temperatures below -20 degrees Celcius. They had no winter clothes, and their engines froze, making their armored vehicles useless. The reasons for this strange lack of preparation were very complex, but I might only mention one factor: the German strategists planned to capture Kyiv (a.k.a. Kiev) "on the march," not later than by mid-July of 1941 (Zhytomyr was captured in early July), while in fact Kyiv resisted till September 6 and swallowed a huge chunk of the German resources.

Also, your statement that the Germans "ran all the way to Berlin" may create an impression that they retreated from Moscow all the way to Berlin in a short time. In fact, in December 1941, they retreated merely to the eastern Ukrainian border, to the Mykhailivs'kyj hamlet - Bakhmach - Konotop line. In late winter and early spring 1942, the Soviet Army made three attempts to develop its offensive toward Kharkiv, and each time it was defeated, with an immense slaughter of hundreds of thousands of its soldiers by the Germans. In spring 1942, the Soviet Army also made an attempt to take the Crimea, and its operation, led by infamous Mekhlis (about whom Stalin said, "for this purpose, we don't need an intelligent man, let's have Mekhlis do it"), resulted in the waste of hundreds of thousands on the Soviet soldiers' lives, and no success whatsoever.

The defeat of the Wermacht in 1943-1945 was a combined effort of the Allied Forces - not any miracle. Plus, there was a colossal effort of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose role in WWII still remains to be fully appreciated.
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« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2009, 08:01:03 PM »

The defeat of the Wermacht in 1943-1945 was a combined effort of the Allied Forces - not any miracle. Plus, there was a colossal effort of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose role in WWII still remains to be fully appreciated.

Why then Allied forces (including Ukrainians) can't do much in Iraq for so long?

I can give consideration to David Irving's statement that fighting Germany was not in the interest of the British Empire. Indeed Britain lost her empire as a result of the war. Also three sisters of Prince Phillip (the husband of the British Queen, who converted from Orthodox to Anglican  to marry her) were married to gauleiters and SS generals and spent the war in Germany. But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.
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« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2009, 08:24:15 PM »

But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.
Can you prove this?
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« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2009, 08:51:12 PM »

But to say that anyone but Russians played any major part in defeat of Germany is a lie.
Can you prove this?
In his book "America's retreat from victory" Senator McCarthy wrote that with German defeat at Stalingrad the WWII had ended and WWIII started. All American effort in the war was to save Western Europe from Communism.

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