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Author Topic: Celtic Orthodox Church and the Benedictine Fathers  (Read 11759 times) Average Rating: 0
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2009, 02:56:31 AM »

Of course, I have concelebrated and communed in both these Churches, for decades past.

In fact concelebration with the Greeks was never broken in this country.   Mitred Archpriest Alexey Godyaew of the Russian Church Abroad served Liturgy regularly with Archbishop Dionysios Psiachas in the Greek cathedral.  You don't have to believe that since I don't have any sworn affidavits nor video recordings to substantiate it.  Maybe it is just another wild fable concocted by the Irish Hermit, maybe!    Grin

Thats interesting.
Greek Orthodox priests were forbidden to concelebrate with ROCOR clergy here in Australia until the rapproachment with the Moscow Patriarchate. It was considered a "Church of questionable canonical status" until then. And as you know, ROCOR was forbidden from establishing a Skete on Mount Athos for the same reason.
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« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2009, 03:00:51 AM »

All I see is a breech of manners and unchristian charity ( pre calcedonian or methodist for that matter.) If OZGEORGE is a moderator, he should have removed himself from this discussion and gone walkabout for some fresh air.

Comments of 'like breeds like' have the stench of a sassanach pickpocket shipped off to sit on the beach until that famed ship with a load of prostitutes dropped anchor to establish Sydney's social registry.
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2009, 03:01:47 AM »

Racist too I see.
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« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2009, 03:02:28 AM »

Of course, I have concelebrated and communed in both these Churches, for decades past.

In fact concelebration with the Greeks was never broken in this country.   Mitred Archpriest Alexey Godyaew of the Russian Church Abroad served Liturgy regularly with Archbishop Dionysios Psiachas in the Greek cathedral.  You don't have to believe that since I don't have any sworn affidavits nor video recordings to substantiate it.  Maybe it is just another wild fable concocted by the Irish Hermit, maybe!    Grin

Thats interesting.
Greek Orthodox priests were forbidden to concelebrate with ROCOR clergy here in Australia until the rapproachment with the Moscow Patriarchate. It was considered a "Church of questionable canonical status" until then. And as you know, ROCOR was forbidden from establishing a Skete on Mount Athos for the same reason.

Do you know when the breach came in for Australia?

As you can see by the attachment, the American Greek Archdiocese was in communion with the Russian Church Abroad up until 1968.  After that concelebration quietly faded away although priests went on communing the faithful of both Churches.
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2009, 03:11:18 AM »

Do you know when the breach came in for Australia?
Relations have been strained since the late 1920's. Prior to this they were in Communion, and the Metropolitanate under the Ecumenical Patriarch provided Russian-speaking Priests for the Russian Orthodox, but Metropolitan Timothy (I think it was), sometime in the late 40's, (probably not fully understanding the situation) officially recognised Patriarch Sergius, and relations were on a decline for decades after, in fact, only right up until this century.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 03:17:50 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2009, 03:13:54 AM »

If defending in small measure one's ancestry is racist, then I am.

YOU made the artfully crafted insult of 'like breeds like' first.

YOU are posting under the authority of a MODERATOR who is displaying immoderate behaviour.

I crap bigger than  you, an activity you probably then turn to profit selling on OZ EBAY claiming

to be holy relics.  
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2009, 03:16:13 AM »

If defending in small measure one's ancestry is racist, then I am.
Who insulted your ancestry? I don't even know what it is.

YOU are posting under the authority of a MODERATOR who is displaying immoderate behaviour.
Am I?

I crap bigger than  you,
Thanks for sharing.
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« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2009, 03:32:33 AM »

I crap bigger than  you, an activity you probably then turn to profit selling on OZ EBAY claiming to be holy relics. 
Charming.

Have a good Holy Week
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 03:33:34 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2009, 03:47:00 AM »

It would do well to change that avatar to the roman god Janus.

You set a confrontational tone, and like all bullies flee crying unjust injury

when somebody shoves back in rightous anger.
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2009, 03:55:54 AM »

You set a confrontational tone
Did I? Where?

when somebody shoves back in rightous anger.
There ain't no such animal as righteous anger. Anger is a Passion. Period.
God's "wrath" is not "righteous anger". It is dispassionate. I hardly think God would go around saying "I crap bigger than you and you would sell it as holy relics" and claim that this was "righteous anger", let alone dispassionate.

Just calm down. You'll have more fun here if you don't jump down people's throats when you misunderstand them.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 03:58:03 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2009, 04:18:00 AM »

There ain't no such animal as righteous anger. Anger is a Passion. Period.

Yes, there is a righteous and sinless anger.  The Bible speaks about it and it is usually an anger on behalf of others.

Saint Paul speaks of being justifiably angry, but it must not be a sinful anger.  It must be controlled and righteous.

 Saint Paul tells us, "Be ye angry, and sin not; let not the sun go down upon your wrath; neither give place to the devil."  ~Ephesians 4:26.


The monks of the Holy Mountain who spend their entire lives striving for apatheia still knew that they had the freedom in Christ to write to the Ecumenical Patriarch "filled with righteous anger."

Ref.no.: F.2/7/639
Karyae, 11th/24th May 1999

His Most Reverend All-Holiness
The Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomeos
The Phanar

Most Holy Father and Master,
<snip>

"For this undermining of the holy Orthodox Faith, we not only grieve, but are also filled with righteous anger."


Letter of the Holy Community of Mt. Athos to Oecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew
Concerning His Compromising of the Orthodox Faith and His Episcopal Office
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/athonite_bartholomew.aspx
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« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2009, 06:54:36 AM »

Trying to rescue this thread from the naughty Irish Pooka and bring it back to the Celtic Church....   Grin

There is a good thread with some good information on the Celtic Orthodox Church and its relationship with the Coptic Orthodox Church.

"Celtic Orthodox bishop received into the Ecumenical Patriarchate"

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,14540.0.html

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ozgeorge
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« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2009, 06:57:59 AM »

There ain't no such animal as righteous anger. Anger is a Passion. Period.

Yes, there is a righteous and sinless anger.  The Bible speaks about it and it is usually an anger on behalf of others.

Saint Paul speaks of being justifiably angry, but it must not be a sinful anger.  It must be controlled and righteous.

 Saint Paul tells us, "Be ye angry, and sin not; let not the sun go down upon your wrath; neither give place to the devil."  ~Ephesians 4:26.


The monks of the Holy Mountain who spend their entire lives striving for apatheia still knew that they had the freedom in Christ to write to the Ecumenical Patriarch "filled with righteous anger."

Ref.no.: F.2/7/639
Karyae, 11th/24th May 1999

His Most Reverend All-Holiness
The Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomeos
The Phanar

Most Holy Father and Master,
<snip>

"For this undermining of the holy Orthodox Faith, we not only grieve, but are also filled with righteous anger."


Letter of the Holy Community of Mt. Athos to Oecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew
Concerning His Compromising of the Orthodox Faith and His Episcopal Office
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/athonite_bartholomew.aspx

I think this would make a good thread.
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« Reply #58 on: April 13, 2009, 07:10:48 AM »

Of course, I have concelebrated and communed in both these Churches, for decades past.

In fact concelebration with the Greeks was never broken in this country.   Mitred Archpriest Alexey Godyaew of the Russian Church Abroad served Liturgy regularly with Archbishop Dionysios Psiachas in the Greek cathedral.  You don't have to believe that since I don't have any sworn affidavits nor video recordings to substantiate it.  Maybe it is just another wild fable concocted by the Irish Hermit, maybe!    Grin

Thats interesting.
Greek Orthodox priests were forbidden to concelebrate with ROCOR clergy here in Australia until the rapproachment with the Moscow Patriarchate. It was considered a "Church of questionable canonical status" until then. And as you know, ROCOR was forbidden from establishing a Skete on Mount Athos for the same reason.

Do you know when the breach came in for Australia?

As you can see by the attachment, the American Greek Archdiocese was in communion with the Russian Church Abroad up until 1968.  After that concelebration quietly faded away although priests went on communing the faithful of both Churches.

I was just thinking about this on the Met. Jonah and Chief Secretary threads: does the yearbook list the Metropolia a/k/a the OCA?  Greeks have told me that they were warned in the 50's that the Metropolia was not in communion with the GOA.  Rather ironic that the Tomos restored communion like with ROCOR, but the Greeks refuse to recognize it (indeed, if the EP had his way, communion would not have been restored.  But Arb. Iakovos of blessed memory thought otherwise).
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« Reply #59 on: April 13, 2009, 07:12:53 AM »

Quote
...indeed, if the EP had his way, communion would not have been restored.

And you have proof of this?
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« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2009, 07:18:53 AM »

Rather ironic that the Tomos restored communion like with ROCOR, but the Greeks refuse to recognize it
Huh What Greeks refuse to recognize it?
What makes you say that?

(indeed, if the EP had his way, communion would not have been restored.  But Arb. Iakovos of blessed memory thought otherwise).
What makes you think the EP did not want Communion restored between ROCOR and th MP, and what makes you think Archbishop Iakovos would go against the will of his own Synod on this?

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« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2009, 07:21:13 AM »

Trying to rescue this thread
Mission Impossible it would seem.
At least I chose to start a new thread for one of the tangents I bear responsibility for!
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20728.msg310418.html#msg310418
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« Reply #62 on: April 13, 2009, 07:40:14 AM »

Rather ironic that the Tomos restored communion like with ROCOR, but the Greeks refuse to recognize it
Huh What Greeks refuse to recognize it?
What makes you say that?

(indeed, if the EP had his way, communion would not have been restored.  But Arb. Iakovos of blessed memory thought otherwise).
What makes you think the EP did not want Communion restored between ROCOR and th MP, and what makes you think Archbishop Iakovos would go against the will of his own Synod on this?



Quote
...indeed, if the EP had his way, communion would not have been restored.

And you have proof of this?

I don't seem to be giving away any secrets here.

s
That is a common view as to what the EP did to Arb. Iakovos after Ligonier, the "troika" (not my term) he sent, the dismemberment of the GOANSA, and the sending of Met. Spyridon.  The OCA remembers that the EP ordered that communion be broken in 1970: only Arb. Iakovos stopped it.
Yes... he did order communion be broken... communion with a church whose "autocephalous" origins were (and still are) dubious, at best.  That was his prerogative, whether we like it or not.  We are a hierarchical church, or at least we were, last time I checked.  The GOA is, after all, under HIS omophorion, thus it was his prerogative to make an unpopular decision.  And when it turned out to be a bad one, he DID INDEED listen to the voice of the clergy and the laity (no matter what +JONAH asserts) and he made the needed change.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
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« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2009, 07:41:05 AM »

Letter of the Holy Community of Mt. Athos to Oecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew
Concerning His Compromising of the Orthodox Faith and His Episcopal Office
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/athonite_bartholomew.aspx

This must be a fraudulent letter. I just checked the link, and the letter is signed:
Quote from:  the website
—All the Representatives to the common Synaxis and Superiors of the twenty Holy Monasteries of the Holy Mountain of Athos.

Someone who is well versed in the matters of documents from the Holy Mountain, and who never exaggerates or misrepresents facts told me that all such documents from the Holy Mountain always bear the names of the signatories.
Now, who was it? Ah yes, I remember

It also lacks the names of any signatories which is also unusual.   Documents I have seen in the past issued by the Sacred Community have always listed signatories.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 07:42:28 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #64 on: April 13, 2009, 07:45:59 AM »

Rather ironic that the Tomos restored communion like with ROCOR, but the Greeks refuse to recognize it
Huh What Greeks refuse to recognize it?
What makes you say that?

(indeed, if the EP had his way, communion would not have been restored.  But Arb. Iakovos of blessed memory thought otherwise).
What makes you think the EP did not want Communion restored between ROCOR and th MP, and what makes you think Archbishop Iakovos would go against the will of his own Synod on this?



Quote
...indeed, if the EP had his way, communion would not have been restored.

And you have proof of this?

I don't seem to be giving away any secrets here.

s
That is a common view as to what the EP did to Arb. Iakovos after Ligonier, the "troika" (not my term) he sent, the dismemberment of the GOANSA, and the sending of Met. Spyridon.  The OCA remembers that the EP ordered that communion be broken in 1970: only Arb. Iakovos stopped it.
Yes... he did order communion be broken... communion with a church whose "autocephalous" origins were (and still are) dubious, at best.  That was his prerogative, whether we like it or not.  We are a hierarchical church, or at least we were, last time I checked.  The GOA is, after all, under HIS omophorion, thus it was his prerogative to make an unpopular decision.  And when it turned out to be a bad one, he DID INDEED listen to the voice of the clergy and the laity (no matter what +JONAH asserts) and he made the needed change.

Related to be sure, but as usual, not exactly what you are asked to answer. You apparently know the mind of the EP...
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« Reply #65 on: April 13, 2009, 08:09:52 AM »

This must be a fraudulent letter. I just checked the link, and the letter is signed:
Quote from:  the website
—All the Representatives to the common Synaxis and Superiors of the twenty Holy Monasteries of the Holy Mountain of Athos.

Someone who is well versed in the matters of documents from the Holy Mountain, and who never exaggerates or misrepresents facts told me that all such documents from the Holy Mountain always bear the names of the signatories.
Now, who was it? Ah yes, I remember

It also lacks the names of any signatories which is also unusual.   Documents I have seen in the past issued by the Sacred Community have always listed signatories.

They told us that the Oz education system, had been dumbed down by the Communists. Papers have even been written on it. Grin

You allege that I contended: "all such documents from the Holy Mountain always bear the names of the signatories."


I didn't say that.  What I said was: "Documents I have seen in the past issued by the Sacred Community have always listed signatories."

There is a difference between "all such documents... always bear" and "documents I have seen in  the past."

Obviously I have not seen all documents issued by the Athonite community and I would not be so foolish as to claim that I had.



« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 08:12:06 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
ozgeorge
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« Reply #66 on: April 13, 2009, 08:15:07 AM »

I didn't say that.  What I said was: "Documents I have seen in the past issued by the Sacred Community have always listed signatories."
Obviously I have not seen all documents issued by the Athonite community and I would not be so foolish as to claim that I had.
So you've never seen the document you've quoted before?
How did you know it existed? You must have seen a copy with the signatories' names on it for you to believe it to be genuine.
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« Reply #67 on: April 13, 2009, 08:16:32 AM »

They told us that the Oz education system, had been dumbed down by the Communists. Papers have even been written on it. Grin

Who are "they"?
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« Reply #68 on: April 13, 2009, 08:17:35 AM »

Yes, there is a righteous and sinless anger.  The Bible speaks about it and it is usually an anger on behalf of others.

Saint Paul speaks of being justifiably angry, but it must not be a sinful anger.  It must be controlled and righteous.

"Be ye angry, and sin not; let not the sun go down upon your wrath; neither give place to the devil."  ~Ephesians 4:26.


The monks of the Holy Mountain who spend their entire lives striving for apatheia still knew that they had the freedom in Christ to write to the Ecumenical Patriarch "filled with righteous anger."

Ref.no.: F.2/7/639
Karyae, 11th/24th May 1999

His Most Reverend All-Holiness
The Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomeos
The Phanar

Most Holy Father and Master,
<snip>

"For this undermining of the holy Orthodox Faith, we not only grieve, but are also filled with righteous anger."


Letter of the Holy Community of Mt. Athos to Oecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew
Concerning His Compromising of the Orthodox Faith and His Episcopal Office
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/athonite_bartholomew.aspx
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #69 on: April 13, 2009, 08:19:24 AM »

Letter of the Holy Community of Mt. Athos to Oecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew
Concerning His Compromising of the Orthodox Faith and His Episcopal Office
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/athonite_bartholomew.aspx

This must be a fraudulent letter. I just checked the link, and the letter is signed:
Quote from:  the website
—All the Representatives to the common Synaxis and Superiors of the twenty Holy Monasteries of the Holy Mountain of Athos.

Someone who is well versed in the matters of documents from the Holy Mountain, and who never exaggerates or misrepresents facts told me that all such documents from the Holy Mountain always bear the names of the signatories.
Now, who was it? Ah yes, I remember

It also lacks the names of any signatories which is also unusual.   Documents I have seen in the past issued by the Sacred Community have always listed signatories.
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« Reply #70 on: April 13, 2009, 08:23:56 AM »

Now now. We both know better than to cross post don't we?
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« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2009, 08:30:18 AM »

Yes, there is a righteous and sinless anger.  The Bible speaks about it and it is usually an anger on behalf of others.

Saint Paul speaks of being justifiably angry, but it must not be a sinful anger.  It must be controlled and righteous.

"Be ye angry, and sin not; let not the sun go down upon your wrath; neither give place to the devil."  ~Ephesians 4:26.


The monks of the Holy Mountain who spend their entire lives striving for apatheia still knew that they had the freedom in Christ to write to the Ecumenical Patriarch "filled with righteous anger."

Ref.no.: F.2/7/639
Karyae, 11th/24th May 1999

His Most Reverend All-Holiness
The Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomeos
The Phanar

Most Holy Father and Master,
<snip>

"For this undermining of the holy Orthodox Faith, we not only grieve, but are also filled with righteous anger."

Letter of the Holy Community of Mt. Athos to Oecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew
Concerning His Compromising of the Orthodox Faith and His Episcopal Office
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/athonite_bartholomew.aspx
 Please stop cross posting.
All your cross-posts have been moved here where the first post appeared.
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2009, 08:33:48 AM »

Whoever is removing one of my post from this thread would you stop being so manipulative.

The post which I am posting is totally on topic and you have no justification to remove it.

I am about to post it for the third time.  Please desist with the games.
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« Reply #73 on: April 13, 2009, 08:34:40 AM »

I have deleted it form this thread.

I was wondering why it was left her instead of being transferred to the new thread on righteous anger when that topic was split off from this thread.

I presume that I now have the liberty, after removing it form this threasd, to write a similar message in the new anger thread?

« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 08:53:38 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #74 on: April 13, 2009, 08:36:10 AM »

Try it again and see what happens.
You will be placed on post moderation for cross posting after being warned twice.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 08:38:33 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #75 on: April 13, 2009, 08:59:55 AM »

I have deleted it form this thread.
That's OK, there is a record.

I was wondering why it was left her instead of being transferred to the new thread on righteous anger when that topic was split off from this thread.
Because it is unnecessary cross-posting.
If you bothered to read the OP of the other thread, it actually links to a quote of what you said on this thread.


I presume that I now have the liberty, after removing it form this threasd, to write a similar message in the new anger thread?
You presume wrong.
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #76 on: April 13, 2009, 09:05:54 AM »

I have deleted it form this thread.
That's OK, there is a record.

I was wondering why it was left her instead of being transferred to the new thread on righteous anger when that topic was split off from this thread.
Because it is unnecessary cross-posting.
If you bothered to read the OP of the other thread, it actually links to a quote of what you said on this thread.


I presume that I now have the liberty, after removing it form this threasd, to write a similar message in the new anger thread?
You presume wrong.

I note that you are writing as a Forum Member and not as a Mod in green ink and so that means I may converse with you.

Why would you refuse me the right to post an on topic post in a new thread split off from this thread?  Form what I have seen, Mods on the Forum transfer relevant messages to a new thread when they create a split off.   There seems no point in leaving my messasge on righteous anger hanging around in a Celtic thread when you have created a thread dedicated to righteous anger!

The refusal to allow me to post an informative post on righteous anger in the new thread seems iniquitous and most unjust.
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« Reply #77 on: April 13, 2009, 09:07:41 AM »

Because it is unnecessary cross-posting.
If you bothered to read the OP of the other thread, it actually links to a quote of what you said on this thread.

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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #78 on: April 13, 2009, 09:08:51 AM »

Try it again and see what happens.
You will be placed on post moderation for cross posting after being warned twice.

Again I note that you are not writing with green ink in your moderatorial capacity.

Therefore I wish to ask a question of you,

Please explain why my post on righteous anger may not be posted in the thread you have created on righteous anger. particularly as I have deleted that post from this Celtic thread?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 09:10:06 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #79 on: April 13, 2009, 09:12:22 AM »

Please explain why my post on righteous anger may not be posted in the thread you have created on righteous anger?

I'm sorry, I thought I explained that here:
Because it is unnecessary cross-posting.
If you bothered to read the OP of the other thread, it actually links to a quote of what you said on this thread.

And here:
Because it is unnecessary cross-posting.
If you bothered to read the OP of the other thread, it actually links to a quote of what you said on this thread.


Perhaps I wasn't clear enough?

Would you like it larger?
Because it is unnecessary cross-posting.
If you bothered to read the OP of the other thread, it actually links to a quote of what you said on this thread.


How about some special effects?
Because it is unnecessary cross-posting. If you bothered to read the OP of the other thread, it actually links to a quote of what you said on this thread.
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #80 on: April 13, 2009, 09:16:38 AM »

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough?

Would you like it larger?
Because it is unnecessary cross-posting.
If you bothered to read the OP of the other thread, it actually links to a quote of what you said on this thread.


How about some special effects?
Because it is unnecessary cross-posting. If you bothered to read the OP of the other thread, it actually links to a quote of what you said on this thread.

My dear brother,

I have deleted my post from this thread.  How many many people reading the new thread on righteous anger are going to click on your link and read the tiny font version of my message which is incorporated as a quote in your message?
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« Reply #81 on: April 13, 2009, 09:22:49 AM »

Irish Hermit,

Quote
Good question.  They are not Eastern Orthodox; they are pre-Chalcedonian.  If we say No, they are not Orthodox then we are also condemning the Coptic Orthodox Church and also the British Orthodox Church (which is in fact a diocese of the Coptic Patriarchate.)

The Coptic Patriarchate took in one of the bishops (Seraphim of Glastonbury) and nearly all of the clergy of this Church.  Within only a few months some of the clergy were alarmed at what they claimed was the copticisation of their Church and they withdrew from their Coptic allegiance and went back to being the Celtic Orthodox Church.

I'm not sure I understand why you feel that anything said with respect to the Celtic Orthodox Church would have any bearing on the Coptic Orthodox Church. Clearly the Celtic Church is not in communion with the Church, regardless of any historical ties. I am not too sure of the actual history, hopefully Fr. Peter can clarify some of this, but I presume that  the implication of your assertion that "they withdrew from their Coptic allegiance" is that they "broke communion with the Coptic Orthodox Church" and as such are not recognised as "Orthodox" by us (the Coptic Church).
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ialmisry
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« Reply #82 on: April 13, 2009, 09:23:16 AM »

I think someone needs a sausage.
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« Reply #83 on: April 13, 2009, 09:25:08 AM »

Irish Hermit,

Quote
Good question.  They are not Eastern Orthodox; they are pre-Chalcedonian.  If we say No, they are not Orthodox then we are also condemning the Coptic Orthodox Church and also the British Orthodox Church (which is in fact a diocese of the Coptic Patriarchate.)

The Coptic Patriarchate took in one of the bishops (Seraphim of Glastonbury) and nearly all of the clergy of this Church.  Within only a few months some of the clergy were alarmed at what they claimed was the copticisation of their Church and they withdrew from their Coptic allegiance and went back to being the Celtic Orthodox Church.

I'm not sure I understand why you feel that anything said with respect to the Celtic Orthodox Church would have any bearing on the Coptic Orthodox Church. Clearly the Celtic Church is not in communion with the Church, regardless of any historical ties. I am not too sure of the actual history, hopefully Fr. Peter can clarify some of this, but I presume that  the implication of your assertion that "they withdrew from their Coptic allegiance" is that they "broke communion with the Coptic Orthodox Church" and as such are not recognised as "Orthodox" by us (the Coptic Church).
I think Father is refering to the fact that the Coptic Orthodox accepted them by economy, something HIGHLY unusual for the Copts.  I recall Father posting when I expressed my shock at that.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #84 on: April 13, 2009, 09:26:02 AM »

I have deleted my post from this thread.  How many many people reading the new thread on righteous anger are going to click on your link and read the tiny font version of my message which is incorporated as a quote in your message?

My dear brother,

1) Lets keep threads on topic.

2) Lets not think what we have to say is so earth shattering that it has to be said four times.

3) You haven't deleted it from this thread.

It is here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20140.msg310411.html#msg310411
And here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20140.msg310416.html#msg310416
And here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20140.msg310439.html#msg310439
And here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20140.msg310446.html#msg310446
And is linked to in here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20728.msg310418.html#msg310418

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« Reply #85 on: April 13, 2009, 09:28:10 AM »

Irish Hermit,

Quote
Good question.  They are not Eastern Orthodox; they are pre-Chalcedonian.  If we say No, they are not Orthodox then we are also condemning the Coptic Orthodox Church and also the British Orthodox Church (which is in fact a diocese of the Coptic Patriarchate.)

The Coptic Patriarchate took in one of the bishops (Seraphim of Glastonbury) and nearly all of the clergy of this Church.  Within only a few months some of the clergy were alarmed at what they claimed was the copticisation of their Church and they withdrew from their Coptic allegiance and went back to being the Celtic Orthodox Church.

I'm not sure I understand why you feel that anything said with respect to the Celtic Orthodox Church would have any bearing on the Coptic Orthodox Church. Clearly the Celtic Church is not in communion with the Church, regardless of any historical ties. I am not too sure of the actual history, hopefully Fr. Peter can clarify some of this, but I presume that  the implication of your assertion that "they withdrew from their Coptic allegiance" is that they "broke communion with the Coptic Orthodox Church" and as such are not recognised as "Orthodox" by us (the Coptic Church).

I don't understand. Where they ever in Commiunion with the Coptic Church EA?
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« Reply #86 on: April 13, 2009, 09:38:14 AM »

Rather ironic that the Tomos restored communion like with ROCOR, but the Greeks refuse to recognize it
Huh What Greeks refuse to recognize it?
What makes you say that?

(indeed, if the EP had his way, communion would not have been restored.  But Arb. Iakovos of blessed memory thought otherwise).
What makes you think the EP did not want Communion restored between ROCOR and th MP, and what makes you think Archbishop Iakovos would go against the will of his own Synod on this?



Quote
...indeed, if the EP had his way, communion would not have been restored.

And you have proof of this?

I don't seem to be giving away any secrets here.

s
That is a common view as to what the EP did to Arb. Iakovos after Ligonier, the "troika" (not my term) he sent, the dismemberment of the GOANSA, and the sending of Met. Spyridon.  The OCA remembers that the EP ordered that communion be broken in 1970: only Arb. Iakovos stopped it.
Yes... he did order communion be broken... communion with a church whose "autocephalous" origins were (and still are) dubious, at best.  That was his prerogative, whether we like it or not.  We are a hierarchical church, or at least we were, last time I checked.  The GOA is, after all, under HIS omophorion, thus it was his prerogative to make an unpopular decision.  And when it turned out to be a bad one, he DID INDEED listen to the voice of the clergy and the laity (no matter what +JONAH asserts) and he made the needed change.

Related to be sure, but as usual, not exactly what you are asked to answer. You apparently know the mind of the EP...

I seem not to be the only one, as this is the first time I have ever seen a question about the EP issuing the directive, which Archb Iakovos of blessed memory squashed.

Maybe his Chief Secretary knows his mind:
Quote
Metropolitan Jonas, while he was still an abbot, in one of his speeches presented what he called “a monastic perspective” on the subject “Episcopacy, Primacy and the Mother Churches”. In the chapter on autocephaly and primacy he claims that “there is no effective overarching primacy in the Orthodox Church.” He seems to be in opposition to the institution of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, because he considers that such an institution “is based on primacy over an empire-wide synod” and that this “has long become unrealistic.” What surprised me the most in this “monastic perspective” of His Eminence Jonas was the claim that allegedly “now only the Greek ethnic Churches and few others recognize the Ecumenical Patriarchate to be what it claims to be.” It is indeed saddening the ignorance of this Hierarch not only on account of History and canonical order but even on account of the current state of affairs. How is it possible that he ignores that there is no Church that does not recognize the Ecumenical Patriarchate? Perhaps he is carried away by the fact that the ecclesial schema over which he presides and which has been claimed as “autocephalous” in rampant violation of every sense of canonicity, is not recognized but by few Churches and it is not included in the diptychs of the Church.

 Instead of acknowledging the mercifulness of the other Patriarchates which, in spite the uncanonical status of the so-called OCA, accept it in communion, its representatives choose to subject them to such an unfair treatment that contributes nothing to the common cause of Orthodox unity. I would be interested to hear an explanation from His Eminence in response to the question “How will the so-called OCA contribute to our common Orthodox witness in diaspora by electing bishops holding titles which already exist for the same city”. Especially our Ecumenical Patriarchate not only is it not “unable to lead” as most unfortunately Metropolitan Jonas claims, but already since last October (in order to limit myself to the most recent example) has launched under the presidency of His All Holiness the process for the convocation of the Holy and Great Synod. I am not sure whether His Eminence, upon his ordination to the episcopacy, refused to put on the vestments of a bishop, which he, in the same article, and while he was still an abbot, had called as unfitting to the real nature of the arch-pastorship (p. 11).

As to your question as to ROCOR, I took it as a mistake for the Metroplia.  Since ROCOR, the Russian Orthodox Church OUTSIDE of Russia, it by definition would fall under the territory, at least in part, claimed by the EP:

Quote
First of all, allow me to remind you that the term “diaspora” is a technical term denoting those regions that lie beyond the borders of the local autocephalous Churches. It does not mean that the Orthodox people who dwell in these regions live there temporally, as misleadingly it was argued by His Eminence Phillip in a recent article (“The Word”). According to the 28th Canon of the 4th Ecumenical Council one of the prerogatives of the Ecumenical Patriarch is precisely His jurisdiction exactly over these regions, which lie beyond the predescribed borders of the local Churches. The canon in question uses the technical term “barbaric” in order to denote these lands, since it was precisely referring to the unknown lands beyond the orbit of the Roman Empire

The EP seems to refuse to recognize that he too is a "local autocephaolous Church."  Or is that reading his mind too?
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #87 on: April 13, 2009, 09:45:32 AM »

This is ridiculous.
Can't we have ONE thread which you guys DON'T derail and turn into an EP bashiing thread? (I'm looking at you ialmisry and Irish Hermit)
I am now locking this thread.
And I am going to remind you both of this forum policy:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10945.msg148884.html#msg148884
This is NOT up for discussion.
Consider yourselves warned.

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