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Author Topic: Celtic Orthodox Church and the Benedictine Fathers  (Read 12476 times) Average Rating: 0
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searn77
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« on: March 09, 2009, 10:39:09 PM »

First of all, what is the Celtic Orthodox Church? From reading some threads I guess they are not a part of the Eastern Orthodox Church? They say that "Canon 6 of Nicea required we form a new jurisdiction rather than operate as a dependency of an Eastern jurisdiction." Is this true? I'm getting this information from http://www.celticorthodoxchurch.com/. They are making it sound like according to Canon 6 of Nicea, there shouldn't be different jurisdictions in America but rather, I guess, an 'American Orthodox Church'. I have read from Eastern Orthodox articles that it should be this way in America and it most likely will be in the future. Is this true? And can an Eastern Orthodox receive the eucharist with the Celtic Orthodox or is it not allowed? I know that Orthodox can't do this in any church that is not Orthodox but I'm not sure exactly what the Celtic Orthodox Church is so I'm not sure the rules regarding this.

And also, are the "Latin Orthodox Benedictine", "Russian Orthodox Benedictine" and "Celtic Orthodox Benedictine Fathers" affiliated with Eastern Orthodoxy, Celtic Orthodoxy, or some other religion? The two websites I found of them are:
http://www.thelobf.org/
http://benedictinefathers.alphawolf.us/page1.php

Any more info about the Benedictine Fathers (especially the Celtic Orthodox Benedictine Fathers because if the Celtic Orthodox Church is not included in Eastern Orthodoxy, why did they go that route instead of Eastern Orthodoxy?) would be great.
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« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2009, 07:56:38 AM »

The "Celtic Orthodox Church" and the "Benedictine Fathers" are not in Communion with either the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic Church or the Anglican Church.
There are many groups which use "Orthodox" in their title, but have no Communion with us.

Here's a handy tip- always suspect any Western group whose Bishops claim descent from "the Ukrainian Orthodox Church".
I've lost count of the episcopi vagantes who claim this!
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 08:00:54 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2009, 08:07:52 PM »

Thanks for the reply. I found a website about all the episcopi vagantes and I had no idea how many different denominations claim to be Orthodox. And sure enough, both of the groups that I referenced were on the website. Now I'm curious though about the claim on Canon 6 of Nicea. I read on a couple of websites about canon 6 and it doesn't seem to be saying that the way Orthodoxy is in America with the different archdioceses are wrong. Any thoughts?

And also, I realize that the "Benedictine Fathers" and "Celtic Orthodox" that I mentioned are not Orthodox, but is it true that when Rome split off from the church, some Benedictine Fathers belonging to Rome felt that the Pope was wrong with his decision, so they fled to Jerusalem and Mt. Athos? If this did happen, did any of these Benedictine monks stay Orthodox?
And is it true that after the East-West schism, Ireland felt that the Pope was wrong so Ireland kind of disregarded the split while continuing to do as they previously had, and later the Pope gave the King of England the okay to take Ireland as long as he made it Catholic (as to which the King killed many of the previous Irish clergy and replaced them with Catholic ones)? I'm just wondering if this is actual fact or just hearsay. I got my information from the sites that I mentioned on the OP. Again I realize that they are not Orthodox but I'm just curious.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 08:09:45 PM by searn77 » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2009, 08:32:33 PM »

And is it true that after the East-West schism, Ireland felt that the Pope was wrong so Ireland kind of disregarded the split while continuing to do as they previously had, and later the Pope gave the King of England the okay to take Ireland as long as he made it Catholic (as to which the King killed many of the previous Irish clergy and replaced them with Catholic ones)? I'm just wondering if this is actual fact or just hearsay. I got my information from the sites that I mentioned on the OP. Again I realize that they are not Orthodox but I'm just curious.

I have briefly looked over some of the material on the site that you linked to.  Proper research of original source materials and the historical context there of would be needed for an in-depth answer.  But there was plenty of conquest and attempts to gain power and land and resources in that time and place.  St. Patrick was Romano-British and Christianity in Ireland looked to Rome for leadership.  Missionaries from Ireland traveled to Scotland and the north of England to spread the Faith. Some of the differences between the two sets of practice may be read of in Bede's account of the Council/Synod of Whitby in  664 A.D. 
Further, the passage on the site from the papal bull not only leaves off part of it but inserts words into it in parenthesis that add the groups opinion/idea that is not applicable in the historical context.

Ebor

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« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 09:18:59 PM »

Well I found out what the bull that Pope Adrian sent was called: "Laudabiliter" (there's a wikipedia page about it). So it was a real papal bull. I seem to be finding more out about Pope Adrian, King Henry, and the anglo-norman invasion, but I can't seem to find out what the Irish were like religiously before Laudabiliter/the anglo-norman invasion or anything about Benedictine monks leaving Ireland for Jerusalem and Mt. Athos.
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« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2009, 03:51:30 AM »

Well I found out what the bull that Pope Adrian sent was called: "Laudabiliter" (

"Laudabiliter"

How a Pope Gave Ireland to England!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/1721
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« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2009, 11:04:07 AM »


Here is a thread on another Celtic Orthodox Church which exists in France, the UK, Switzerland.

It has its headquarters at a monastery in Brittany.

It claims an historical apostolic succession through the Oriental Orthodox Church.

Celtic Orthodox bishop received into the Ecumenical Patriarchate

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,14540.0.html
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« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2009, 12:25:54 AM »

'Celtic' is a rather loose and abused term properly describing many peoples  sharing cultural commonalities. We could all be called 'interneti' today.
No Pope 'gave' England Ireland. They took it. My own Sept Kavanaugh was kin to the McMurrough who foolishly invited them over to help in that grand old irish pastime called fighting. And many is the time the english wish they had never gotten involved.
Slapping 'celtic'  on anything is fabricating an idealised mythological history in a foggy shroud of harp plucked fantasy. Hang a pentagram instead of a cross with solar circle and you have a wiccan.
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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2009, 09:21:38 PM »

'Celtic' is a rather loose and abused term properly describing many peoples  sharing cultural commonalities. We could all be called 'interneti' today.
No Pope 'gave' England Ireland. They took it. My own Sept Kavanaugh was kin to the McMurrough who foolishly invited them over to help in that grand old irish pastime called fighting. And many is the time the english wish they had never gotten involved.
Slapping 'celtic'  on anything is fabricating an idealised mythological history in a foggy shroud of harp plucked fantasy. Hang a pentagram instead of a cross with solar circle and you have a wiccan.

Yeah when I first made this thread I had no idea of how many religions claim to be the true Orthodox church (and by no means am I talking about the Oriental Orthodox church). The Celtic Orthodox church is the first of these churches that I ever heard of so I wasn't sure what the deal was with them. But now, after looking up into it more and more, I realize that they are self-proclaimed (although if one were to believe what they proclaim, it seems that it could have been legitimate). But I don't believe it.
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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2009, 09:49:36 PM »

Being as irish is the predominent ethnicity in my family makeup, the idea of a celtic church is positively scary.

I can see it now, after liturgy everyone walks out for the coffee hour.

Only, instead of oven warm spanikopita,  russian caravan tea or lebanese hummus
There is a plate of Idaho potatos immolated in aluminum foil, soda bread with more dangers than chinese drywall and  roadkill corned beef and cabbage.

Makes that casserole at the lutherans look yummie  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2009, 10:05:29 PM »

Being as irish is the predominent ethnicity in my family makeup, the idea of a celtic church is positively scary.


Be brave!   Go and visit the parishes and monasteries of the Celtic Orthodox Church in France, Brittany, Switzerland....  They are not in communion with any Orthoodox Churches but who knows.... one day.  Their apostolic succession comes form the Copts.  The Copts took in, as a bishop without ordaining him in any way, Metropolitan Seraphim of Glastonbury who now heads the British branch of the anglophone Coptic Patriarchate.

Their monastery church in Brittany



One of their websites, there are others but in French.

http://www.eoc-coc.org/index_english.html
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« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2009, 10:22:17 PM »

They are not in communion with any Orthoodox Churches but who knows.... one day. 

Slightly contradictory don't you think?
Are they Orthodox or not?
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« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2009, 10:37:51 PM »

They are not in communion with any Orthoodox Churches but who knows.... one day. 

Slightly contradictory don't you think?
Are they Orthodox or not?

Good question.  They are not Eastern Orthodox; they are pre-Chalcedonian.  If we say No, they are not Orthodox then we are also condemning the Coptic Orthodox Church and also the British Orthodox Church (which is in fact a diocese of the Coptic Patriarchate.)

The Coptic Patriarchate took in one of the bishops (Seraphim of Glastonbury) and nearly all of the clergy of this Church.  Within only a few months some of the clergy were alarmed at what they claimed was the copticisation of their Church and they withdrew from their Coptic allegiance and went back to being the Celtic Orthodox Church.

The point is that the Copts accepted them in their orders because they derived them from a Coptic bishop in the 19th century.  He created, with the approval of the Coptic Synod, a Bishop of Iona (Jules Ferrette, an ex-Catholic priest) who was meant to restore Orthodoxy in the British Isles.   So if we condemn the Celtic Orthodox that places their brothers who remained in the Coptic Church in a bit of a tight spot.

Of couse, if you do not admit that the Copts are Orthodox in the first place, then your answer is No, they are not Orthodox.  But I do not know your views of Coptic Orders and Sacraments.
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« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2009, 10:40:39 PM »

then your answer is No, they are not Orthodox. 
I'm actually interested in your answer.
Are the non-Chalcedonians Orthodox in your view?
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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2009, 12:31:26 AM »

then your answer is No, they are not Orthodox. 
I'm actually interested in your answer.
Are the non-Chalcedonians Orthodox in your view?

I suppose they must be since they are communed by the Antiochian clergy, and the Greeks also used to commune them and perform their weddings, etc., but less now, if at all, since the passing of Metropolitan Dionysios (Psiachas) who was in charge here for about 30 years. 

I think I have mentioned that I arranged for the Copts to use our parish church (I was Serbian in those days) for a while when their numbers were small but there was no intercommunion.  They would fly a priest over from Brisbane and he would serve Liturgy in the body of the church.

Are there circumstances when Greeks commune non-Chalcedonians in Australia?
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« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2009, 01:02:42 AM »

I suppose they must be
Okie dokie.
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« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2009, 01:19:15 AM »


I am glad you see the point. 
You didn't answer the question whether the Greek clergy in Australia commune Copts?

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« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2009, 01:24:50 AM »


What point? I simply asked whether you consider Non-Chalcedonians to be Orthodox and you replied in the affirmative that you do.

You didn't answer the question whether the Greek clergy in Australia commune Copts?
No they don't, and they never have.

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« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2009, 01:28:34 AM »


I am glad you see the point. 
You didn't answer the question whether the Greek clergy in Australia commune Copts?



The post above. 

I  DID  NOT  WRITE  IT.   I'VE TRIED TO  REPORT IT  TO A MOD  BUT THE  SOFTWARE  WON'T  LET  ME  BECAUSE  IT THINKS  THAT  I  WROTE  IT  AND TELLS  ME  I CANNOT REPORT  MY OWN POST.   
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« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2009, 01:30:02 AM »


I am glad you see the point. 
You didn't answer the question whether the Greek clergy in Australia commune Copts?



The post above. 

I  DID  NOT  WRITE  IT.   I'VE TRIED TO  REPORT IT  TO A MOD  BUT THE  SOFTWARE  WON'T  LET  ME  BECAUSE  IT THINKS  THAT  I  WROTE  IT  AND TELLS  ME  I CANNOT REPORT  MY OWN POST.   

SOME ONE  IS PLAYING  WITH  MY POSTS.  PLEASE STOP ALTERING THEM.
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« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2009, 01:30:41 AM »

Stop shouting.
Cant you just modify it?
I just fixed the quote tags for you, but if you meant them to be somewhere else, just fix it.
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« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2009, 01:37:33 AM »

Stop shouting.
Cant you just modify it?


Please look at your cached version of reply #16.

It was altered to make it appear that I said something that I had not.  And now it has been altered again. 

I am not shouting.  I tried to let a Mod know what was happening but of course the software won't let me report a post which seems to have come from me.   I need to get the attention of a Mod in some other way.
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« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2009, 01:39:07 AM »

It was altered to make it appear that I said something that I had not. 
So what did you say?
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« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2009, 01:43:25 AM »

What point? I simply asked whether you consider Non-Chalcedonians to be Orthodox and you replied in the affirmative that you do.

Did I?  I pointed out that the Antiochian and the Greek clergy in this country have communed them and performed other Sacraments.  I can hardly think that the Antiochians and Greeks have not reached their own decisions on the status of the non-Chalcedoniams and obviously they must believe they are communing Orthodox Christians.

Is there a Forum policy as to whether non-Chalcedonians are Orthodox?
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« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2009, 01:46:36 AM »

It was altered to make it appear that I said something that I had not. 
So what did you say?


It is NOT what I said.  It was what someone interpolated into my message.  I invite you to investigate your cached versions of message #16. 

But forget it.  I have other things to take my attention.
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« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2009, 01:47:23 AM »

Is there a Forum policy as to whether non-Chalcedonians are Orthodox?
No.
I simply asked you what you personally believe.

then your answer is No, they are not Orthodox. 
I'm actually interested in your answer.
Are the non-Chalcedonians Orthodox in your view?

I suppose they must be
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« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2009, 01:50:07 AM »

Stop shouting.
Cant you just modify it?
I just fixed the quote tags for you, but if you meant them to be somewhere else, just fix it.


There was nothing wrong with my quote tags.  Extraneous material was added into my message and then it was removed.

Agian, I invite you to take a look at your cached versions of message #16.  It will show you the variants.
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« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2009, 01:51:29 AM »

So post 16 which you quote above actually reads what you said?

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« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2009, 01:54:41 AM »

Is there a Forum policy as to whether non-Chalcedonians are Orthodox?
No.
I simply asked you what you personally believe.

then your answer is No, they are not Orthodox. 
I'm actually interested in your answer.
Are the non-Chalcedonians Orthodox in your view?

I suppose they must be

You are being disingenuous.  We Orthodox laboured for years on CAF with Catholics truncating quotes to make them mean something other than intended.

I wrote words to this effect: I suppose they must be because the Antiochian and Greek priests and even the ex Greek Archbishop have communed them regularly and frequently.
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« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2009, 01:55:36 AM »

So post 16 which you quote above actually reads what you said?

Again, I invite you to take a look at your cached versions of message #16.  It will show you the variants.
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« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2009, 01:57:54 AM »

Is there a Forum policy as to whether non-Chalcedonians are Orthodox?
No.
I simply asked you what you personally believe.

then your answer is No, they are not Orthodox. 
I'm actually interested in your answer.
Are the non-Chalcedonians Orthodox in your view?

I suppose they must be

You are being disingenuous.  We Orthodox laboured for years on CAF with Catholics truncating quotes to make them mean something other than intended.

I wrote words to this effect: I suppose they must be because the Antiochian and Greek priests and even the ex Greek Archbishop have communed them regularly and frequently.


So when someone asks you a direct question about what you personally believe you direct them to what an "ex Greek Archbishop" may have believed?
Isn't that a bit disingenuous? What is the point of answering a direct question about your personal beliefs in such a manner if not to be disingenuous?

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« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2009, 02:07:15 AM »

So when someone asks you a direct question about what you personally believe you direct them to what an "ex Greek Archbishop" may have believed?
Isn't that a bit disingenuous? What is the point of answering a direct question about your personal beliefs in such a manner if not to be disingenuous?


Quiet night in Sydney?   Grin

Btw, I am under no obligation at all to tell anybody what I believe when I judge the question confrontational or likely to cause a breach of charity. 

I have asked you many many questions on this Forum which you have not replied to.  But that is nothing particularly sinister.  It is just the nature of Forums.  They always throw up far more questions than get answered.
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« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2009, 02:11:17 AM »

Quiet night in Sydney?   Grin
I'm not in Sydney.

Btw, I am under no obligation at all to tell anybody what I believe when I judge the question confrontational or likely to cause a breach of charity. 
True, but you could have simply stated that in your response. That would have been the charitable thing to do.

I have asked you many many questions on this Forum which you have not replied to.
Learn from my example. If you do not wish to answer, do not answer. Don't use it as an opportunity for unsubstantiated mud-slinging. If you don't want to answer, just say so, or simply don't answer. Don't be disingenuous.
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« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2009, 02:17:27 AM »

I humbly apologise.   Of course I will learn from your example. But what unsubstantiated mudslinging are you speaking of?   I have personally witnessed the communing of Copts by Greek and Antiochian clergy.  We have to turn away Copts coming to our Russian and Serbian parish churches and expecting to receive communion becasuse they receive it at other Orthodox churches in the city. 
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« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2009, 02:27:14 AM »

Actually, I think I see the problem. The "reply with quote" feature seems to have a bug in it.

Anyway:

Well, your "personal witness" as important as it may be to you, is actually unsubstantiated unless you can produce documented or video evidence.
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« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2009, 02:27:23 AM »

Once you've sorted out the poucka playing games with your posts, perhaps you can

clarify who these 'celts' are, their history and above all purpose?

Europe has seen a resurgance in nationalism post USSR and even in the west.

Basques, Faroese seperatists, flemish and dutch language conflicts in the Netherlands

are but a few of political and religous movements linking to some 'ancient' or pre Nation-State

identity. There is even a old popular french cartoon series of two holdout celts defying the

Roman empire.

I have enough to do sorting out who is in communion with whom without getting tangled up in

memorial services at the statue of Vercingetorix.
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« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2009, 02:27:54 AM »

I humbly apologise.   Of course I will learn from your example. But what unsubstantiated mudslinging are you speaking of?   I have personally witnessed the communing of Copts by Greek and Antiochian clergy.  We have to turn away Copts coming to our Russian and Serbian parish churches and expecting to receive communion becasuse they receive it at other Orthodox churches in the city. 
Well, your "personal witness" as important as it may be to you, is actually unsubstantiated unless you can produce documented or video evidence.



I  DID  NOT  WRITE  THAT  LAST  SENTENCE.  IT  HAS  BEEN INTERPOLATED  INTO  MY POST.
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« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2009, 02:28:31 AM »

Once you've sorted out the poucka playing games with your posts, perhaps you can
Thats a bit uncharitable isnt it?
Like breeds like I suppose.
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« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2009, 02:29:30 AM »

Calm down Irish Hermit.
Read this:
Actually, I think I see the problem. The "reply with quote" feature seems to have a bug in it.
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« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2009, 02:31:40 AM »

Well, your "personal witness" as important as it may be to you, is actually unsubstantiated unless you can produce documented or video evidence.


What do you think?  That it is all a massive lie from a pseudo monk who fabricates wicked stories about seeing non-Chalcedonians receiving Communion in diophysite Churches?   Grin
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« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2009, 02:36:26 AM »

Uncharitable? to use a irish entity of mischief to describe a seeming supernatural interference with a post? One you use a 20th century folklore reference (a 'bug') in the precise same  manner ?

Hardly.
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« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2009, 02:39:59 AM »

What do you think?  That it is all a massive lie from a pseudo monk who fabricates wicked stories about seeing non-Chalcedonians receiving Communion in diophysite Churches?   

What I think doesn't matter, and neither does what you think- unless you are being asked for your personal opinion. But if someone asks for your personal opinion, and you reply with a claim of what you "saw" as breeches of Orthodoxy, then you are neither answering the question, nor providing substantiated facts, nor on topic. Would you believe a claim about ROCOR doing something unorthodox which was "personally witnessed" by someone without substantiation?
Just one question though- what were you doing in Greek Orthodox and Antiochian Churches? Were you concelebrating or simply an observer? Did you Commune?
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« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2009, 02:47:59 AM »


Just one question though- what were you doing in Greek Orthodox and Antiochian Churches? Were you concelebrating or simply an observer? Did you Commune?

Of course, I have concelebrated and communed in both these Churches, for decades past.

In fact concelebration with the Greeks was never broken in this country.   Mitred Archpriest Alexey Godyaew of the Russian Church Abroad served Liturgy regularly with Archbishop Dionysios Psiachas in the Greek cathedral.  You don't have to believe that since I don't have any sworn affidavits nor video recordings to substantiate it.  Maybe it is just another wild fable concocted by the Irish Hermit, maybe!    Grin
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« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2009, 02:50:43 AM »

what you "saw" as breeches of Orthodoxy, then you are neither answering the question, nor providing substantiated facts, nor on topic. Would you believe a claim about ROCOR doing something unorthodox which was "personally witnessed" by someone without substantiation?

Do you see communing non-Chalcedonians as breeches of Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2009, 02:52:41 AM »

Do you see communing non-Chalcedonians as breeches of Orthodoxy?

Yes I do, and so does my Church.
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« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2009, 02:56:31 AM »

Of course, I have concelebrated and communed in both these Churches, for decades past.

In fact concelebration with the Greeks was never broken in this country.   Mitred Archpriest Alexey Godyaew of the Russian Church Abroad served Liturgy regularly with Archbishop Dionysios Psiachas in the Greek cathedral.  You don't have to believe that since I don't have any sworn affidavits nor video recordings to substantiate it.  Maybe it is just another wild fable concocted by the Irish Hermit, maybe!    Grin

Thats interesting.
Greek Orthodox priests were forbidden to concelebrate with ROCOR clergy here in Australia until the rapproachment with the Moscow Patriarchate. It was considered a "Church of questionable canonical status" until then. And as you know, ROCOR was forbidden from establishing a Skete on Mount Athos for the same reason.
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« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2009, 03:00:51 AM »

All I see is a breech of manners and unchristian charity ( pre calcedonian or methodist for that matter.) If OZGEORGE is a moderator, he should have removed himself from this discussion and gone walkabout for some fresh air.

Comments of 'like breeds like' have the stench of a sassanach pickpocket shipped off to sit on the beach until that famed ship with a load of prostitutes dropped anchor to establish Sydney's social registry.
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« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2009, 03:01:47 AM »

Racist too I see.
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« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2009, 03:02:28 AM »

Of course, I have concelebrated and communed in both these Churches, for decades past.

In fact concelebration with the Greeks was never broken in this country.   Mitred Archpriest Alexey Godyaew of the Russian Church Abroad served Liturgy regularly with Archbishop Dionysios Psiachas in the Greek cathedral.  You don't have to believe that since I don't have any sworn affidavits nor video recordings to substantiate it.  Maybe it is just another wild fable concocted by the Irish Hermit, maybe!    Grin

Thats interesting.
Greek Orthodox priests were forbidden to concelebrate with ROCOR clergy here in Australia until the rapproachment with the Moscow Patriarchate. It was considered a "Church of questionable canonical status" until then. And as you know, ROCOR was forbidden from establishing a Skete on Mount Athos for the same reason.

Do you know when the breach came in for Australia?

As you can see by the attachment, the American Greek Archdiocese was in communion with the Russian Church Abroad up until 1968.  After that concelebration quietly faded away although priests went on communing the faithful of both Churches.
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« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2009, 03:11:18 AM »

Do you know when the breach came in for Australia?
Relations have been strained since the late 1920's. Prior to this they were in Communion, and the Metropolitanate under the Ecumenical Patriarch provided Russian-speaking Priests for the Russian Orthodox, but Metropolitan Timothy (I think it was), sometime in the late 40's, (probably not fully understanding the situation) officially recognised Patriarch Sergius, and relations were on a decline for decades after, in fact, only right up until this century.
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« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2009, 03:13:54 AM »

If defending in small measure one's ancestry is racist, then I am.

YOU made the artfully crafted insult of 'like breeds like' first.

YOU are posting under the authority of a MODERATOR who is displaying immoderate behaviour.

I crap bigger than  you, an activity you probably then turn to profit selling on OZ EBAY claiming

to be holy relics.  
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« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2009, 03:16:13 AM »

If defending in small measure one's ancestry is racist, then I am.
Who insulted your ancestry? I don't even know what it is.

YOU are posting under the authority of a MODERATOR who is displaying immoderate behaviour.
Am I?

I crap bigger than  you,
Thanks for sharing.
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« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2009, 03:32:33 AM »

I crap bigger than  you, an activity you probably then turn to profit selling on OZ EBAY claiming to be holy relics. 
Charming.

Have a good Holy Week
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« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2009, 03:47:00 AM »

It would do well to change that avatar to the roman god Janus.

You set a confrontational tone, and like all bullies flee crying unjust injury

when somebody shoves back in rightous anger.
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« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2009, 03:55:54 AM »

You set a confrontational tone
Did I? Where?

when somebody shoves back in rightous anger.
There ain't no such animal as righteous anger. Anger is a Passion. Period.
God's "wrath" is not "righteous anger". It is dispassionate. I hardly think God would go around saying "I crap bigger than you and you would sell it as holy relics" and claim that this was "righteous anger", let alone dispassionate.

Just calm down. You'll have more fun here if you don't jump down people's throats when you misunderstand them.
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« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2009, 04:18:00 AM »

There ain't no such animal as righteous anger. Anger is a Passion. Period.

Yes, there is a righteous and sinless anger.  The Bible speaks about it and it is usually an anger on behalf of others.

Saint Paul speaks of being justifiably angry, but it must not be a sinful anger.  It must be controlled and righteous.

 Saint Paul tells us, "Be ye angry, and sin not; let not the sun go down upon your wrath; neither give place to the devil."  ~Ephesians 4:26.


The monks of the Holy Mountain who spend their entire lives striving for apatheia still knew that they had the freedom in Christ to write to the Ecumenical Patriarch "filled with righteous anger."

Ref.no.: F.2/7/639
Karyae, 11th/24th May 1999

His Most Reverend All-Holiness
The Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomeos
The Phanar

Most Holy Father and Master,
<snip>

"For this undermining of the holy Orthodox Faith, we not only grieve, but are also filled with righteous anger."


Letter of the Holy Community of Mt. Athos to Oecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew
Concerning His Compromising of the Orthodox Faith and His Episcopal Office
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/athonite_bartholomew.aspx
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« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2009, 06:54:36 AM »

Trying to rescue this thread from the naughty Irish Pooka and bring it back to the Celtic Church....   Grin

There is a good thread with some good information on the Celtic Orthodox Church and its relationship with the Coptic Orthodox Church.

"Celtic Orthodox bishop received into the Ecumenical Patriarchate"

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,14540.0.html

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« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2009, 06:57:59 AM »

There ain't no such animal as righteous anger. Anger is a Passion. Period.

Yes, there is a righteous and sinless anger.  The Bible speaks about it and it is usually an anger on behalf of others.

Saint Paul speaks of being justifiably angry, but it must not be a sinful anger.  It must be controlled and righteous.

 Saint Paul tells us, "Be ye angry, and sin not; let not the sun go down upon your wrath; neither give place to the devil."  ~Ephesians 4:26.


The monks of the Holy Mountain who spend their entire lives striving for apatheia still knew that they had the freedom in Christ to write to the Ecumenical Patriarch "filled with righteous anger."

Ref.no.: F.2/7/639
Karyae, 11th/24th May 1999

His Most Reverend All-Holiness
The Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomeos
The Phanar

Most Holy Father and Master,
<snip>

"For this undermining of the holy Orthodox Faith, we not only grieve, but are also filled with righteous anger."


Letter of the Holy Community of Mt. Athos to Oecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew
Concerning His Compromising of the Orthodox Faith and His Episcopal Office
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/athonite_bartholomew.aspx

I think this would make a good thread.
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« Reply #58 on: April 13, 2009, 07:10:48 AM »

Of course, I have concelebrated and communed in both these Churches, for decades past.

In fact concelebration with the Greeks was never broken in this country.   Mitred Archpriest Alexey Godyaew of the Russian Church Abroad served Liturgy regularly with Archbishop Dionysios Psiachas in the Greek cathedral.  You don't have to believe that since I don't have any sworn affidavits nor video recordings to substantiate it.  Maybe it is just another wild fable concocted by the Irish Hermit, maybe!    Grin

Thats interesting.
Greek Orthodox priests were forbidden to concelebrate with ROCOR clergy here in Australia until the rapproachment with the Moscow Patriarchate. It was considered a "Church of questionable canonical status" until then. And as you know, ROCOR was forbidden from establishing a Skete on Mount Athos for the same reason.

Do you know when the breach came in for Australia?

As you can see by the attachment, the American Greek Archdiocese was in communion with the Russian Church Abroad up until 1968.  After that concelebration quietly faded away although priests went on communing the faithful of both Churches.

I was just thinking about this on the Met. Jonah and Chief Secretary threads: does the yearbook list the Metropolia a/k/a the OCA?  Greeks have told me that they were warned in the 50's that the Metropolia was not in communion with the GOA.  Rather ironic that the Tomos restored communion like with ROCOR, but the Greeks refuse to recognize it (indeed, if the EP had his way, communion would not have been restored.  But Arb. Iakovos of blessed memory thought otherwise).
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« Reply #59 on: April 13, 2009, 07:12:53 AM »

Quote
...indeed, if the EP had his way, communion would not have been restored.

And you have proof of this?
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« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2009, 07:18:53 AM »

Rather ironic that the Tomos restored communion like with ROCOR, but the Greeks refuse to recognize it
Huh What Greeks refuse to recognize it?
What makes you say that?

(indeed, if the EP had his way, communion would not have been restored.  But Arb. Iakovos of blessed memory thought otherwise).
What makes you think the EP did not want Communion restored between ROCOR and th MP, and what makes you think Archbishop Iakovos would go against the will of his own Synod on this?

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« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2009, 07:21:13 AM »

Trying to rescue this thread
Mission Impossible it would seem.
At least I chose to start a new thread for one of the tangents I bear responsibility for!
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20728.msg310418.html#msg310418
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« Reply #62 on: April 13, 2009, 07:40:14 AM »

Rather ironic that the Tomos restored communion like with ROCOR, but the Greeks refuse to recognize it
Huh What Greeks refuse to recognize it?
What makes you say that?

(indeed, if the EP had his way, communion would not have been restored.  But Arb. Iakovos of blessed memory thought otherwise).
What makes you think the EP did not want Communion restored between ROCOR and th MP, and what makes you think Archbishop Iakovos would go against the will of his own Synod on this?



Quote
...indeed, if the EP had his way, communion would not have been restored.

And you have proof of this?

I don't seem to be giving away any secrets here.

s
That is a common view as to what the EP did to Arb. Iakovos after Ligonier, the "troika" (not my term) he sent, the dismemberment of the GOANSA, and the sending of Met. Spyridon.  The OCA remembers that the EP ordered that communion be broken in 1970: only Arb. Iakovos stopped it.
Yes... he did order communion be broken... communion with a church whose "autocephalous" origins were (and still are) dubious, at best.  That was his prerogative, whether we like it or not.  We are a hierarchical church, or at least we were, last time I checked.  The GOA is, after all, under HIS omophorion, thus it was his prerogative to make an unpopular decision.  And when it turned out to be a bad one, he DID INDEED listen to the voice of the clergy and the laity (no matter what +JONAH asserts) and he made the needed change.
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« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2009, 07:41:05 AM »

Letter of the Holy Community of Mt. Athos to Oecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew
Concerning His Compromising of the Orthodox Faith and His Episcopal Office
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/athonite_bartholomew.aspx

This must be a fraudulent letter. I just checked the link, and the letter is signed:
Quote from:  the website
—All the Representatives to the common Synaxis and Superiors of the twenty Holy Monasteries of the Holy Mountain of Athos.

Someone who is well versed in the matters of documents from the Holy Mountain, and who never exaggerates or misrepresents facts told me that all such documents from the Holy Mountain always bear the names of the signatories.
Now, who was it? Ah yes, I remember

It also lacks the names of any signatories which is also unusual.   Documents I have seen in the past issued by the Sacred Community have always listed signatories.
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« Reply #64 on: April 13, 2009, 07:45:59 AM »

Rather ironic that the Tomos restored communion like with ROCOR, but the Greeks refuse to recognize it
Huh What Greeks refuse to recognize it?
What makes you say that?

(indeed, if the EP had his way, communion would not have been restored.  But Arb. Iakovos of blessed memory thought otherwise).
What makes you think the EP did not want Communion restored between ROCOR and th MP, and what makes you think Archbishop Iakovos would go against the will of his own Synod on this?



Quote
...indeed, if the EP had his way, communion would not have been restored.

And you have proof of this?

I don't seem to be giving away any secrets here.

s
That is a common view as to what the EP did to Arb. Iakovos after Ligonier, the "troika" (not my term) he sent, the dismemberment of the GOANSA, and the sending of Met. Spyridon.  The OCA remembers that the EP ordered that communion be broken in 1970: only Arb. Iakovos stopped it.
Yes... he did order communion be broken... communion with a church whose "autocephalous" origins were (and still are) dubious, at best.  That was his prerogative, whether we like it or not.  We are a hierarchical church, or at least we were, last time I checked.  The GOA is, after all, under HIS omophorion, thus it was his prerogative to make an unpopular decision.  And when it turned out to be a bad one, he DID INDEED listen to the voice of the clergy and the laity (no matter what +JONAH asserts) and he made the needed change.

Related to be sure, but as usual, not exactly what you are asked to answer. You apparently know the mind of the EP...
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« Reply #65 on: April 13, 2009, 08:09:52 AM »

This must be a fraudulent letter. I just checked the link, and the letter is signed:
Quote from:  the website
—All the Representatives to the common Synaxis and Superiors of the twenty Holy Monasteries of the Holy Mountain of Athos.

Someone who is well versed in the matters of documents from the Holy Mountain, and who never exaggerates or misrepresents facts told me that all such documents from the Holy Mountain always bear the names of the signatories.
Now, who was it? Ah yes, I remember

It also lacks the names of any signatories which is also unusual.   Documents I have seen in the past issued by the Sacred Community have always listed signatories.

They told us that the Oz education system, had been dumbed down by the Communists. Papers have even been written on it. Grin

You allege that I contended: "all such documents from the Holy Mountain always bear the names of the signatories."


I didn't say that.  What I said was: "Documents I have seen in the past issued by the Sacred Community have always listed signatories."

There is a difference between "all such documents... always bear" and "documents I have seen in  the past."

Obviously I have not seen all documents issued by the Athonite community and I would not be so foolish as to claim that I had.



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« Reply #66 on: April 13, 2009, 08:15:07 AM »

I didn't say that.  What I said was: "Documents I have seen in the past issued by the Sacred Community have always listed signatories."
Obviously I have not seen all documents issued by the Athonite community and I would not be so foolish as to claim that I had.
So you've never seen the document you've quoted before?
How did you know it existed? You must have seen a copy with the signatories' names on it for you to believe it to be genuine.
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« Reply #67 on: April 13, 2009, 08:16:32 AM »

They told us that the Oz education system, had been dumbed down by the Communists. Papers have even been written on it. Grin

Who are "they"?
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« Reply #68 on: April 13, 2009, 08:17:35 AM »

Yes, there is a righteous and sinless anger.  The Bible speaks about it and it is usually an anger on behalf of others.

Saint Paul speaks of being justifiably angry, but it must not be a sinful anger.  It must be controlled and righteous.

"Be ye angry, and sin not; let not the sun go down upon your wrath; neither give place to the devil."  ~Ephesians 4:26.


The monks of the Holy Mountain who spend their entire lives striving for apatheia still knew that they had the freedom in Christ to write to the Ecumenical Patriarch "filled with righteous anger."

Ref.no.: F.2/7/639
Karyae, 11th/24th May 1999

His Most Reverend All-Holiness
The Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomeos
The Phanar

Most Holy Father and Master,
<snip>

"For this undermining of the holy Orthodox Faith, we not only grieve, but are also filled with righteous anger."


Letter of the Holy Community of Mt. Athos to Oecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew
Concerning His Compromising of the Orthodox Faith and His Episcopal Office
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/athonite_bartholomew.aspx
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« Reply #69 on: April 13, 2009, 08:19:24 AM »

Letter of the Holy Community of Mt. Athos to Oecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew
Concerning His Compromising of the Orthodox Faith and His Episcopal Office
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/athonite_bartholomew.aspx

This must be a fraudulent letter. I just checked the link, and the letter is signed:
Quote from:  the website
—All the Representatives to the common Synaxis and Superiors of the twenty Holy Monasteries of the Holy Mountain of Athos.

Someone who is well versed in the matters of documents from the Holy Mountain, and who never exaggerates or misrepresents facts told me that all such documents from the Holy Mountain always bear the names of the signatories.
Now, who was it? Ah yes, I remember

It also lacks the names of any signatories which is also unusual.   Documents I have seen in the past issued by the Sacred Community have always listed signatories.
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« Reply #70 on: April 13, 2009, 08:23:56 AM »

Now now. We both know better than to cross post don't we?
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« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2009, 08:30:18 AM »

Yes, there is a righteous and sinless anger.  The Bible speaks about it and it is usually an anger on behalf of others.

Saint Paul speaks of being justifiably angry, but it must not be a sinful anger.  It must be controlled and righteous.

"Be ye angry, and sin not; let not the sun go down upon your wrath; neither give place to the devil."  ~Ephesians 4:26.


The monks of the Holy Mountain who spend their entire lives striving for apatheia still knew that they had the freedom in Christ to write to the Ecumenical Patriarch "filled with righteous anger."

Ref.no.: F.2/7/639
Karyae, 11th/24th May 1999

His Most Reverend All-Holiness
The Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomeos
The Phanar

Most Holy Father and Master,
<snip>

"For this undermining of the holy Orthodox Faith, we not only grieve, but are also filled with righteous anger."

Letter of the Holy Community of Mt. Athos to Oecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew
Concerning His Compromising of the Orthodox Faith and His Episcopal Office
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/athonite_bartholomew.aspx
 Please stop cross posting.
All your cross-posts have been moved here where the first post appeared.
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« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2009, 08:33:48 AM »

Whoever is removing one of my post from this thread would you stop being so manipulative.

The post which I am posting is totally on topic and you have no justification to remove it.

I am about to post it for the third time.  Please desist with the games.
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« Reply #73 on: April 13, 2009, 08:34:40 AM »

I have deleted it form this thread.

I was wondering why it was left her instead of being transferred to the new thread on righteous anger when that topic was split off from this thread.

I presume that I now have the liberty, after removing it form this threasd, to write a similar message in the new anger thread?

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« Reply #74 on: April 13, 2009, 08:36:10 AM »

Try it again and see what happens.
You will be placed on post moderation for cross posting after being warned twice.
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« Reply #75 on: April 13, 2009, 08:59:55 AM »

I have deleted it form this thread.
That's OK, there is a record.

I was wondering why it was left her instead of being transferred to the new thread on righteous anger when that topic was split off from this thread.
Because it is unnecessary cross-posting.
If you bothered to read the OP of the other thread, it actually links to a quote of what you said on this thread.


I presume that I now have the liberty, after removing it form this threasd, to write a similar message in the new anger thread?
You presume wrong.
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« Reply #76 on: April 13, 2009, 09:05:54 AM »

I have deleted it form this thread.
That's OK, there is a record.

I was wondering why it was left her instead of being transferred to the new thread on righteous anger when that topic was split off from this thread.
Because it is unnecessary cross-posting.
If you bothered to read the OP of the other thread, it actually links to a quote of what you said on this thread.


I presume that I now have the liberty, after removing it form this threasd, to write a similar message in the new anger thread?
You presume wrong.

I note that you are writing as a Forum Member and not as a Mod in green ink and so that means I may converse with you.

Why would you refuse me the right to post an on topic post in a new thread split off from this thread?  Form what I have seen, Mods on the Forum transfer relevant messages to a new thread when they create a split off.   There seems no point in leaving my messasge on righteous anger hanging around in a Celtic thread when you have created a thread dedicated to righteous anger!

The refusal to allow me to post an informative post on righteous anger in the new thread seems iniquitous and most unjust.
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« Reply #77 on: April 13, 2009, 09:07:41 AM »

Because it is unnecessary cross-posting.
If you bothered to read the OP of the other thread, it actually links to a quote of what you said on this thread.

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« Reply #78 on: April 13, 2009, 09:08:51 AM »

Try it again and see what happens.
You will be placed on post moderation for cross posting after being warned twice.

Again I note that you are not writing with green ink in your moderatorial capacity.

Therefore I wish to ask a question of you,

Please explain why my post on righteous anger may not be posted in the thread you have created on righteous anger. particularly as I have deleted that post from this Celtic thread?
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« Reply #79 on: April 13, 2009, 09:12:22 AM »

Please explain why my post on righteous anger may not be posted in the thread you have created on righteous anger?

I'm sorry, I thought I explained that here:
Because it is unnecessary cross-posting.
If you bothered to read the OP of the other thread, it actually links to a quote of what you said on this thread.

And here:
Because it is unnecessary cross-posting.
If you bothered to read the OP of the other thread, it actually links to a quote of what you said on this thread.


Perhaps I wasn't clear enough?

Would you like it larger?
Because it is unnecessary cross-posting.
If you bothered to read the OP of the other thread, it actually links to a quote of what you said on this thread.


How about some special effects?
Because it is unnecessary cross-posting. If you bothered to read the OP of the other thread, it actually links to a quote of what you said on this thread.
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« Reply #80 on: April 13, 2009, 09:16:38 AM »

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough?

Would you like it larger?
Because it is unnecessary cross-posting.
If you bothered to read the OP of the other thread, it actually links to a quote of what you said on this thread.


How about some special effects?
Because it is unnecessary cross-posting. If you bothered to read the OP of the other thread, it actually links to a quote of what you said on this thread.

My dear brother,

I have deleted my post from this thread.  How many many people reading the new thread on righteous anger are going to click on your link and read the tiny font version of my message which is incorporated as a quote in your message?
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« Reply #81 on: April 13, 2009, 09:22:49 AM »

Irish Hermit,

Quote
Good question.  They are not Eastern Orthodox; they are pre-Chalcedonian.  If we say No, they are not Orthodox then we are also condemning the Coptic Orthodox Church and also the British Orthodox Church (which is in fact a diocese of the Coptic Patriarchate.)

The Coptic Patriarchate took in one of the bishops (Seraphim of Glastonbury) and nearly all of the clergy of this Church.  Within only a few months some of the clergy were alarmed at what they claimed was the copticisation of their Church and they withdrew from their Coptic allegiance and went back to being the Celtic Orthodox Church.

I'm not sure I understand why you feel that anything said with respect to the Celtic Orthodox Church would have any bearing on the Coptic Orthodox Church. Clearly the Celtic Church is not in communion with the Church, regardless of any historical ties. I am not too sure of the actual history, hopefully Fr. Peter can clarify some of this, but I presume that  the implication of your assertion that "they withdrew from their Coptic allegiance" is that they "broke communion with the Coptic Orthodox Church" and as such are not recognised as "Orthodox" by us (the Coptic Church).
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« Reply #82 on: April 13, 2009, 09:23:16 AM »

I think someone needs a sausage.
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« Reply #83 on: April 13, 2009, 09:25:08 AM »

Irish Hermit,

Quote
Good question.  They are not Eastern Orthodox; they are pre-Chalcedonian.  If we say No, they are not Orthodox then we are also condemning the Coptic Orthodox Church and also the British Orthodox Church (which is in fact a diocese of the Coptic Patriarchate.)

The Coptic Patriarchate took in one of the bishops (Seraphim of Glastonbury) and nearly all of the clergy of this Church.  Within only a few months some of the clergy were alarmed at what they claimed was the copticisation of their Church and they withdrew from their Coptic allegiance and went back to being the Celtic Orthodox Church.

I'm not sure I understand why you feel that anything said with respect to the Celtic Orthodox Church would have any bearing on the Coptic Orthodox Church. Clearly the Celtic Church is not in communion with the Church, regardless of any historical ties. I am not too sure of the actual history, hopefully Fr. Peter can clarify some of this, but I presume that  the implication of your assertion that "they withdrew from their Coptic allegiance" is that they "broke communion with the Coptic Orthodox Church" and as such are not recognised as "Orthodox" by us (the Coptic Church).
I think Father is refering to the fact that the Coptic Orthodox accepted them by economy, something HIGHLY unusual for the Copts.  I recall Father posting when I expressed my shock at that.
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« Reply #84 on: April 13, 2009, 09:26:02 AM »

I have deleted my post from this thread.  How many many people reading the new thread on righteous anger are going to click on your link and read the tiny font version of my message which is incorporated as a quote in your message?

My dear brother,

1) Lets keep threads on topic.

2) Lets not think what we have to say is so earth shattering that it has to be said four times.

3) You haven't deleted it from this thread.

It is here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20140.msg310411.html#msg310411
And here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20140.msg310416.html#msg310416
And here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20140.msg310439.html#msg310439
And here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20140.msg310446.html#msg310446
And is linked to in here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20728.msg310418.html#msg310418

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« Reply #85 on: April 13, 2009, 09:28:10 AM »

Irish Hermit,

Quote
Good question.  They are not Eastern Orthodox; they are pre-Chalcedonian.  If we say No, they are not Orthodox then we are also condemning the Coptic Orthodox Church and also the British Orthodox Church (which is in fact a diocese of the Coptic Patriarchate.)

The Coptic Patriarchate took in one of the bishops (Seraphim of Glastonbury) and nearly all of the clergy of this Church.  Within only a few months some of the clergy were alarmed at what they claimed was the copticisation of their Church and they withdrew from their Coptic allegiance and went back to being the Celtic Orthodox Church.

I'm not sure I understand why you feel that anything said with respect to the Celtic Orthodox Church would have any bearing on the Coptic Orthodox Church. Clearly the Celtic Church is not in communion with the Church, regardless of any historical ties. I am not too sure of the actual history, hopefully Fr. Peter can clarify some of this, but I presume that  the implication of your assertion that "they withdrew from their Coptic allegiance" is that they "broke communion with the Coptic Orthodox Church" and as such are not recognised as "Orthodox" by us (the Coptic Church).

I don't understand. Where they ever in Commiunion with the Coptic Church EA?
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« Reply #86 on: April 13, 2009, 09:38:14 AM »

Rather ironic that the Tomos restored communion like with ROCOR, but the Greeks refuse to recognize it
Huh What Greeks refuse to recognize it?
What makes you say that?

(indeed, if the EP had his way, communion would not have been restored.  But Arb. Iakovos of blessed memory thought otherwise).
What makes you think the EP did not want Communion restored between ROCOR and th MP, and what makes you think Archbishop Iakovos would go against the will of his own Synod on this?



Quote
...indeed, if the EP had his way, communion would not have been restored.

And you have proof of this?

I don't seem to be giving away any secrets here.

s
That is a common view as to what the EP did to Arb. Iakovos after Ligonier, the "troika" (not my term) he sent, the dismemberment of the GOANSA, and the sending of Met. Spyridon.  The OCA remembers that the EP ordered that communion be broken in 1970: only Arb. Iakovos stopped it.
Yes... he did order communion be broken... communion with a church whose "autocephalous" origins were (and still are) dubious, at best.  That was his prerogative, whether we like it or not.  We are a hierarchical church, or at least we were, last time I checked.  The GOA is, after all, under HIS omophorion, thus it was his prerogative to make an unpopular decision.  And when it turned out to be a bad one, he DID INDEED listen to the voice of the clergy and the laity (no matter what +JONAH asserts) and he made the needed change.

Related to be sure, but as usual, not exactly what you are asked to answer. You apparently know the mind of the EP...

I seem not to be the only one, as this is the first time I have ever seen a question about the EP issuing the directive, which Archb Iakovos of blessed memory squashed.

Maybe his Chief Secretary knows his mind:
Quote
Metropolitan Jonas, while he was still an abbot, in one of his speeches presented what he called “a monastic perspective” on the subject “Episcopacy, Primacy and the Mother Churches”. In the chapter on autocephaly and primacy he claims that “there is no effective overarching primacy in the Orthodox Church.” He seems to be in opposition to the institution of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, because he considers that such an institution “is based on primacy over an empire-wide synod” and that this “has long become unrealistic.” What surprised me the most in this “monastic perspective” of His Eminence Jonas was the claim that allegedly “now only the Greek ethnic Churches and few others recognize the Ecumenical Patriarchate to be what it claims to be.” It is indeed saddening the ignorance of this Hierarch not only on account of History and canonical order but even on account of the current state of affairs. How is it possible that he ignores that there is no Church that does not recognize the Ecumenical Patriarchate? Perhaps he is carried away by the fact that the ecclesial schema over which he presides and which has been claimed as “autocephalous” in rampant violation of every sense of canonicity, is not recognized but by few Churches and it is not included in the diptychs of the Church.

 Instead of acknowledging the mercifulness of the other Patriarchates which, in spite the uncanonical status of the so-called OCA, accept it in communion, its representatives choose to subject them to such an unfair treatment that contributes nothing to the common cause of Orthodox unity. I would be interested to hear an explanation from His Eminence in response to the question “How will the so-called OCA contribute to our common Orthodox witness in diaspora by electing bishops holding titles which already exist for the same city”. Especially our Ecumenical Patriarchate not only is it not “unable to lead” as most unfortunately Metropolitan Jonas claims, but already since last October (in order to limit myself to the most recent example) has launched under the presidency of His All Holiness the process for the convocation of the Holy and Great Synod. I am not sure whether His Eminence, upon his ordination to the episcopacy, refused to put on the vestments of a bishop, which he, in the same article, and while he was still an abbot, had called as unfitting to the real nature of the arch-pastorship (p. 11).

As to your question as to ROCOR, I took it as a mistake for the Metroplia.  Since ROCOR, the Russian Orthodox Church OUTSIDE of Russia, it by definition would fall under the territory, at least in part, claimed by the EP:

Quote
First of all, allow me to remind you that the term “diaspora” is a technical term denoting those regions that lie beyond the borders of the local autocephalous Churches. It does not mean that the Orthodox people who dwell in these regions live there temporally, as misleadingly it was argued by His Eminence Phillip in a recent article (“The Word”). According to the 28th Canon of the 4th Ecumenical Council one of the prerogatives of the Ecumenical Patriarch is precisely His jurisdiction exactly over these regions, which lie beyond the predescribed borders of the local Churches. The canon in question uses the technical term “barbaric” in order to denote these lands, since it was precisely referring to the unknown lands beyond the orbit of the Roman Empire

The EP seems to refuse to recognize that he too is a "local autocephaolous Church."  Or is that reading his mind too?
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« Reply #87 on: April 13, 2009, 09:45:32 AM »

This is ridiculous.
Can't we have ONE thread which you guys DON'T derail and turn into an EP bashiing thread? (I'm looking at you ialmisry and Irish Hermit)
I am now locking this thread.
And I am going to remind you both of this forum policy:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10945.msg148884.html#msg148884
This is NOT up for discussion.
Consider yourselves warned.

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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
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