Author Topic: Will the Antioch Decision Affect Other Churches?  (Read 1780 times)

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Offline ROCORthodox

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Will the Antioch Decision Affect Other Churches?
« on: March 09, 2009, 09:21:26 PM »
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Anybody care to comment on what kind of precident this restructuring by the Antiochian Patriarchate might have on other "self ruled" or "autocephalous" arrangements other Patriarchates might have? 

One can't help to wonder what the MP might consider concerning the OCA and ROCOR.  A ROCOR priest told me he found out that Met. Jonah is currently in route to Istanbul to meet with Patriarch Bartholomew.

« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 09:43:53 AM by Pravoslavbob »

Offline antiderivative

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Re: Will the Antioch Decision Affect Other Churches?
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2009, 09:54:32 PM »
The whole situation is rather confusing. Is the Ecumenical Patriarch going to help much? I don't know what is power is in cases such as this. Hopefully Metropolitan Jonah's visit to CONSTANTINOPLE  ;D might improve relations between the OCA and EC.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 09:44:13 AM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will the Antioch Decision Affect Other Churches?
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2009, 10:02:38 PM »
The whole situation is rather confusing. Is the Ecumenical Patriarch going to help much? I don't know what is power is in cases such as this. Hopefully Metropolitan Jonah's visit to CONSTANTINOPLE  ;D might improve relations between the OCA and EC.

I was thinking about how clear my conscience would be if the parish voted to go to the OCA.  And I'm one of the few Arabs in the parish.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 09:44:28 AM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Will the Antioch Decision Affect Other Churches?
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2009, 10:15:32 PM »
The whole situation is rather confusing. Is the Ecumenical Patriarch going to help much? I don't know what is power is in cases such as this.
The the right of eccliton (the right to judge matters in other Patriarchates) which Constantinople holds under Canons 9 & 17 of the 4th Ecumenical Council does not automatically give Constantinople the right to interfere in the Churches of other Patriarchates. For a matter to be judged by Constantinople, an appeal must be made by a hierarch or other clergyman. Only in the case of a direct appeal can Constantinople intervene, otherwise, she has no right to interfere. The last time this happened was when the Synod of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem deposed it's Patriarch and appealed to Constantinople to ratify this. The response was not for Constantinople to ratify the decision herself, but to convene and preside over a PanOrthodox Synod to judge the matter. This is the Concilliar way things work in the Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 09:44:38 AM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Will the Antioch Decision Affect Other Churches?
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2009, 10:44:49 PM »
The whole situation is rather confusing. Is the Ecumenical Patriarch going to help much? I don't know what is power is in cases such as this.
The the right of eccliton (the right to judge matters in other Patriarchates) which Constantinople holds under Canons 9 & 17 of the 4th Ecumenical Council does not automatically give Constantinople the right to interfere in the Churches of other Patriarchates. For a matter to be judged by Constantinople, an appeal must be made by a hierarch or other clergyman. Only in the case of a direct appeal can Constantinople intervene, otherwise, she has no right to interfere. The last time this happened was when the Synod of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem deposed it's Patriarch and appealed to Constantinople to ratify this. The response was not for Constantinople to ratify the decision herself, but to convene and preside over a PanOrthodox Synod to judge the matter. This is the Concilliar way things work in the Orthodox Church.

In the case of Bishop Basil (Osborne) in the UK the right of eccliton was exercised without any conciliar gathering of the hierarchs of the Orthodox Churches.  Why would an appeal from one or more of the Antiochian bishops need a Pan-Orthodox Synod?  There is no need for such to be convened in order for Constantinople to use its power of eccliton; there is no specification in the Canons requiring such a Synod.

Sorry I think this message might really belong more on the other thread?  Please transfer it if such is the case.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 09:44:55 AM by Pravoslavbob »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Will the Antioch Decision Affect Other Churches?
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2009, 10:53:54 PM »
In the case of Bishop Basil (Osborne) in the UK the right of eccliton was exercised without any conciliar gathering of the hierarchs of the Orthodox Churches. 
There was no need for such because it was not a judgement of a matter of another Church. Bishop Basil did not seek the matter in the Diocese of Sourozh to be judged by Constantinople, he merely appealed to be received by Constantinople, and he was. Constantinople has not sought to judge the Synod of the Diocese of Sourozh or the Moscow Patriarchate- hence no need for a PanOrthodox Synod.
This is quite different to the appeal made by the Synod of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem. Firstly, they were seeking a judgement about an hierarch in their own Church who had not appealed to Constantinople, yet was their Primate and they were appealing against him. And secondly, the Synod was not asking to be received by Constantinople.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 09:45:17 AM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Will the Antioch Decision Affect Other Churches?
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2009, 11:48:49 PM »
In the case of Bishop Basil (Osborne) in the UK the right of eccliton was exercised without any conciliar gathering of the hierarchs of the Orthodox Churches. 
There was no need for such because it was not a judgement of a matter of another Church. Bishop Basil did not seek the matter in the Diocese of Sourozh to be judged by Constantinople, he merely appealed to be received by Constantinople, and he was. Constantinople has not sought to judge the Synod of the Diocese of Sourozh or the Moscow Patriarchate- hence no need for a PanOrthodox Synod.
This is quite different to the appeal made by the Synod of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem. Firstly, they were seeking a judgement about an hierarch in their own Church who had not appealed to Constantinople, yet was their Primate and they were appealing against him. And secondly, the Synod was not asking to be received by Constantinople.

And what if Moscow decided to pursue the matter against the Ecumenical Patriarch for taking a bishop who was not released, instead of releasing him?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 09:45:32 AM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Will the Antioch Decision Affect Other Churches?
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2009, 12:44:12 AM »
In the case of Bishop Basil (Osborne) in the UK the right of eccliton was exercised without any conciliar gathering of the hierarchs of the Orthodox Churches. 
There was no need for such because it was not a judgement of a matter of another Church. Bishop Basil did not seek the matter in the Diocese of Sourozh to be judged by Constantinople, he merely appealed to be received by Constantinople, and he was. Constantinople has not sought to judge the Synod of the Diocese of Sourozh or the Moscow Patriarchate- hence no need for a PanOrthodox Synod.

Previously you presented it not simply as a matter of reception into Constantinople but as a judgement by Constantinople upon an appeal by His Grace Bishop Basil.

You wrote: "Bishop Basil appealed to the Throne of the Ecumenical Patriarchate
which is the right of any clergy in any Patriarchate under the Canons which give
the Ecumenical Patriarchate the right of eccliton (the right to judge clergy of
the other Patriarchates who appeal to her) under Canons 9 & 17 of the Ecumenical
Council of Chalcedon. As a result, he was directed to the Patriarchal Exarchate
for Orthodox Parishes of Russian Tradition in Western Europe."

I am very interested in this. Until you mentioned eccliton in the British Orthodox Church thread I had not been aware of it.  Are you saying that the Antiochian hierarchs would not have this right to appeal to the Great Throne?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 09:45:43 AM by Pravoslavbob »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Will the Antioch Decision Affect Other Churches?
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2009, 05:04:45 AM »
And what if Moscow decided to pursue the matter against the Ecumenical Patriarch for taking a bishop who was not released, instead of releasing him?
She hasn't. But even if she does, Bishop Basil still has the right of appeal to Constantinople. If the matter was disputed, Constantinople could convene an Endemousa or PanOrthodox Synod to settle the matter, as she did in the case of the deposing of the former Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Are you saying that the Antiochian hierarchs would not have this right to appeal to the Great Throne?
They do have this right. Any clergy in any Eastern Orthodox Church have the right to appeal to the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. What I am saying is that until such an appeal is made, Constantinople has no right to do anything outside of her own jurisdiction. Bishop Basil of Sourozh made an appeal to be recieved by Constantinople, and Constantinople received him through the Patriarchal Exarchate for Orthodox Parishes of Russian Tradition in Western Europe. This was a judgement made solely about Bishop Basil and the clergy who followed him, it was not a judgement about the Synod of the Diocese of Sourozh or the Patriarchate of Moscow.
It is my sincere hope that the Bishops and Clergy of the Self Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese of North America can resolve this matter within their own Church and Patriarchate. If the matter cannot be resolved within the their own Archdiocese and the Synod of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of  Antioch and all the East, then yes, an appeal can be made to the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and will be handled according to the form of the appeal.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 09:46:00 AM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline AMM

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Re: Will the Antioch Decision Affect Other Churches?
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2009, 11:48:15 AM »
Its another major step backwards for jurisdictional unity in North America.

Offline EofK

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Re: Will the Antioch Decision Affect Other Churches?
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2009, 06:23:03 PM »
The whole situation is rather confusing. Is the Ecumenical Patriarch going to help much? I don't know what is power is in cases such as this. Hopefully Metropolitan Jonah's visit to CONSTANTINOPLE  ;D might improve relations between the OCA and EC.

I was thinking about how clear my conscience would be if the parish voted to go to the OCA.  And I'm one of the few Arabs in the parish.

I had the same thought in mind when we were neck-deep in the OCA scandal and there was talk of our parish moving under Antioch.  In some ways, I'm glad we stuck with the OCA and not just because of the current hullabaloo with Metropolitan Phillip.  I've seen so many church divisions, splits, hurt feelings, etc., that I was sick of congregations just running away from the problem to go under someone else's umbrella and find similar problems there.  It was really refreshing to stay faithful to one parish, despite all the issues, and work through the problems.  We're still cleaning up from the storm, so to speak, but things look brighter now.  It may take a while, but hopefully this will all blow over soon enough and the right things will be done. 
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams