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Author Topic: Autonomy: Eastern Rite Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy  (Read 3358 times) Average Rating: 0
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Deacon Lance
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« on: March 09, 2009, 06:03:36 PM »

Origin Thread:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19903.0.html

-- Nebelpfade


I know this is a touchy issue right now but it certainly seems the bishops of my Metroplia have more autonomy than do the bishops of the Antiochian Archdiocese.  It would be wise to remember the next time Eastern Catholic autonomy is being criticized that autonomy is something that must be given but also taken and held on to.

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« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2009, 06:22:48 PM »

I know this is a touchy issue right now but it certainly seems the bishops of my Metroplia have more autonomy than do the bishops of the Antiochian Archdiocese.  It would be wise to remember the next time Eastern Catholic autonomy is being criticized that autonomy is something that must be given but also taken and held on to.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Who do your bishops and priests submit their requsts for retirement to?  Who makes the final decision?

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« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2009, 06:33:33 PM »

In patriarchates/major archepiscopates, bishops are requested to submit their resignation to the patriarch/major archbishop upon reaching 75.  In metropolitan and lesser churches the resignation is submitted to the Pope, this is also true for bishops of eparchies outside the patriarchal territory.  Priests/deacons submit their resignations to their respective hierarchs.

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« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2009, 06:38:54 PM »

In patriarchates/major archepiscopates, bishops are requested to submit their resignation to the patriarch/major archbishop upon reaching 75.  In metropolitan and lesser churches the resignation is submitted to the Pope, this is also true for bishops of eparchies outside the patriarchal territory.  Priests/deacons submit their resignations to their respective hierarchs.

Fr. Deacon Lance

You seem to be avoiding my question.  You state that YOUR  EPARCHY has more automony than the antiochians.  So wouldn't the answer when speaking of YOUR EPARCHY be contained within that sentence I have indicated by underlining it?

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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2009, 07:04:28 PM »

The Byzantine Catholic Metroplia is a metropolitan church.  The Pope appoints our bishops and accepts their resignations and I have never stated otherwise.  The bishops of the eparchies are full diocesan bishops over whom the metropolitan has limited and well defined jurisdiction.  They are not just his auxiliary bishops.

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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2009, 07:06:16 PM »

The Byzantine Catholic Metroplia is a metropolitan church.  The Pope appoints our bishops and accepts their resignations and I have never stated otherwise.  The bishops of the eparchies are full diocesan bishops over whom the metropolitan has limited and well defined jurisdiction.  They are not just his auxiliary bishops.

No, they are the pope of Rome's.

I know this is a touchy issue right now but it certainly seems the bishops of my Metroplia have more autonomy than do the bishops of the Antiochian Archdiocese.  It would be wise to remember the next time Eastern Catholic autonomy is being criticized that autonomy is something that must be given but also taken and held on to.

LOL.  I saw this claim made on Byzcath and posted the relevant canons from the Vatican's canon law, but it seems the censors didn't like that.

In patriarchates/major archepiscopates, bishops are requested to submit their resignation to the patriarch/major archbishop upon reaching 75.  In metropolitan and lesser churches the resignation is submitted to the Pope, this is also true for bishops of eparchies outside the patriarchal territory.  Priests/deacons submit their resignations to their respective hierarchs.

This is a part that never made sense: why are there any eparchies outside of the patriarchate?

I know why we have them, and admittedly its a mess, but in theory this isn't the way it is supposed to go.  Compare for instance Russia, which qualifies as diaspora for the purposes of discussion here: none of the Ancient Patriarchs would have an eparchy in Russia (the situation in Estonia is not a question of having an eparchy in a foreign Patriarchate, but a question of which patriarchate Estonia belongs too, i.e. the usual "diaspora" question).  No Greek is under the CoG, nor the Church of Cyprus, though the vast majority of Greeks in the West come from there (Ozgeorge is an exception.  Is Australia in the West?).

The Vatican scheme, even in theory, takes the overlapping mess as perfectly natural.  Even in the ancient Patriarchates: 4 patriarchates in Antioch isn't seen as an issue.

And of course, it is telling that all these eparchies d'outre-mer are directly under the Vatican.
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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2009, 07:09:37 PM »

The Byzantine Catholic Metroplia is a metropolitan church.  The Pope appoints our bishops and accepts their resignations and I have never stated otherwise.  The bishops of the eparchies are full diocesan bishops over whom the metropolitan has limited and well defined jurisdiction.  They are not just his auxiliary bishops.

Fr. Deacon Lance

So just where is that 'more automony' you are claiming?

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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2009, 07:11:25 PM »

The Byzantine Catholic Metroplia is a metropolitan church.  The Pope appoints our bishops and accepts their resignations and I have never stated otherwise.  The bishops of the eparchies are full diocesan bishops over whom the metropolitan has limited and well defined jurisdiction.  They are not just his auxiliary bishops.

No, they are the pope of Rome's.

I know this is a touchy issue right now but it certainly seems the bishops of my Metroplia have more autonomy than do the bishops of the Antiochian Archdiocese.  It would be wise to remember the next time Eastern Catholic autonomy is being criticized that autonomy is something that must be given but also taken and held on to.

LOL.  I saw this claim made on Byzcath and posted the relevant canons from the Vatican's canon law, but it seems the censors didn't like that.

How about posting them here!

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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2009, 08:11:14 PM »

Orthodoc,

You have a copy of the CCEO.  How is the situation of the Eastern Catholic Churches any worse than autonomos Orthodox Churches are those in the diaspora answering to a Patriarch in the old country?

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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2009, 08:18:51 PM »

Orthodoc,

You have a copy of the CCEO.  How is the situation of the Eastern Catholic Churches any worse than autonomos Orthodox Churches are those in the diaspora answering to a Patriarch in the old country?

Fr. Deacon Lance

Maybe we can discuss it after you answer my original question.

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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2009, 08:31:21 PM »

No, they are the pope of Rome's.

So you are now claiming every Catholic diocesan bishop is simply the Pope's auxiliary?  This is simply not catholic teaching even if our ecclesiology is different than yours.

Canon 178

The eparchial bishop, as a vicar and legate of Christ, governs in his own name the eparchy entrusted to him for shepherding. This power, which he exercises personally in the name of Christ, is proper, ordinary, and immediate, although its exercise is ultimately regulated by the Supreme Authority of the Church and can be defined with certain limits should the usefulness of the Church or the Christian faithful require it.


This is a part that never made sense: why are there any eparchies outside of the patriarchate?

I know why we have them, and admittedly its a mess, but in theory this isn't the way it is supposed to go.  Compare for instance Russia, which qualifies as diaspora for the purposes of discussion here: none of the Ancient Patriarchs would have an eparchy in Russia (the situation in Estonia is not a question of having an eparchy in a foreign Patriarchate, but a question of which patriarchate Estonia belongs too, i.e. the usual "diaspora" question).  No Greek is under the CoG, nor the Church of Cyprus, though the vast majority of Greeks in the West come from there (Ozgeorge is an exception.  Is Australia in the West?).

The Vatican scheme, even in theory, takes the overlapping mess as perfectly natural.  Even in the ancient Patriarchates: 4 patriarchates in Antioch isn't seen as an issue.

And of course, it is telling that all these eparchies d'outre-mer are directly under the Vatican.

Or rather why are the Eastern patriarchates limited territorially, while the Latin Church is not?  This inequity is still a souce of contention between Rome and the Eastern Catholic Patriarchs, who want immdiate supervision over their diaspora's without Rome's intervention.  I have never said the CCEO was not in need of revision.  The Catholic Church accepts the idea of jurisdicitons be exercised over person rather than territory.  A bishop may erect a parish for a certain ethnic group, language group, or members of another autonomos Church in his diocese. Diocese for Eastern Catholics may be erected in the same manner in the territory of the Latin Church.

The Catholic Church has only 3 Patriarchates in Antioch: Maronite, Melkite, and Syriac.

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« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2009, 09:09:33 PM »

Orthodoc,

You have a copy of the CCEO.  How is the situation of the Eastern Catholic Churches any worse than autonomos Orthodox Churches are those in the diaspora answering to a Patriarch in the old country?

Fr. Deacon Lance



That the official text of the CCEO is in Latin should give you a clue.

Quote
TITLE 3

The Supreme Authority of the Church
 
Canon 43

The bishop of the Church of Rome, in whom resides the office

(munus) given in special way by the Lord to Peter, first of the

Apostles and to be transmitted to his successors, is head of the

college of bishops, ; the Vicar of Christ and Pastor of the entire

Church on earth
[/u]therefore, in virtue of his office (munus) he

enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in

the Church which he can always freely exercise
.

Canon 44

1. The Roman Pontiff obtains full and supreme power in the

Church by means of legitimate election accepted by him together

with episcopal consecration; therefore, one who is already a

bishop obtains this same power from the moment he accepts his

election to the pontificate, but if the one elected lacks the

episcopal character, he is to be ordained a bishop immediately.

2. If it should happen that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office (munus), it is required for validity that he makes the resignation freely and that it be duly manifested, but not that it

be accepted by anyone.
 
Canon 45

1. The Roman Pontiff, by virtue of his office (munus), not only

has power over the entire Church but also possesses a primacy of

ordinary power over all the eparchies and groupings of them by

which the proper, ordinary and immediate power which bishops

possess in the eparchy entrusted to their care is both strengthened and safeguarded. 2. The Roman Pontiff, in fulfilling the

office (munus) of the supreme pastor of the Church is always

united in communion with the other bishops and with the entire

Church; however, he has the right, according to the needs of the

Church, to determine the manner, either personal or collegial, of

exercising this function. 3. There is neither appeal nor recourse against a sentence or decree of the Roman Pontiff.
 
Canon 46

1. In exercising his office (munus) the Roman Pontiff is assisted by the bishops who aid him in various ways and among these

is the synod of bishops; moreover the cardinals, the Roman curia,

pontifical legates and other persons and various institutes assist him according to the needs of the times; all these persons

and institutes carry out the task committed to them in his name

and by his authority for the good of all the Churches, according

to the norm of law established by the Roman Pontiff himself
. 2.

The participation of patriarchs and other hierarchs who preside

over Churches sui iuris in the synod of bishops is regulated by

special norms established by the Roman Pontiff
.
 
Canon 47

When the Roman see is vacant or entirely impeded nothing is to be

innovated in the governance of the entire Church; however, special laws enacted for those circumstances are to be observed.
 
Canon 48

In this Code the term "Apostolic See" or "Holy See" applies not

only to the Roman Pontiff but also, unless it is otherwise prescribed by the law or the nature of the matter indicates otherwise, dicasteries and other institutes of the Roman curia.
 
Canon 49

The college of bishops, whose head is the Roman Pontiff and whose

members are the bishops by virtue of sacramental ordination and

hierarchical communion with the head and members of the college,

and in which the apostolic body continually endures, together

with its head, and never without its head, is also the subject of

supreme and full power over the universal Church.
 
Canon 50

1. The college of bishops exercises power over the entire

Church in a solemn manner in an ecumenical council. 2. The

college exercises the same power through the united action of the

bishops dispersed in the world, which action as such has been

initiated or has been freely accepted by the Roman Pontiff so

that a truly collegial act results. 3. It is for the Roman

Pontiff, in keeping with the needs of the Church, to select and

promote the ways by which the college of bishops is to exercise

collegially its function regarding the entire Church
.
 
Canon 53

If the Apostolic See becomes vacant during the celebration of a

council, it is interrupted by the law itself until a new Roman

Pontiff orders it to be continued or dissolves it.
 
Canon 54

1. Decrees of an ecumenical council do not have obligatory

force unless they are approved by the Roman Pontiff together with

the fathers of the council and are confirmed by the Roman Pontiff

and promulgated at his order
. 2. When the college of bishops

takes collegial action in another manner, initiated or freely

accepted by the Roman Pontiff, in order for its decrees to have

binding force, they need this same confirmation and promulgation.

Basically the Vatican's ecclesiology, l'eglise, c'est le pape, still even in Latin.

Quote
TITLE 4

The Patriarchal Churches


Canon 56

A patriarch is a bishop who enjoys power over all bishops

including metropolitans and other Christian faithful of the

Church over which he presides according to the norm of law

approved by the supreme authority of the Church.  [i.e. the Vatican]

Canon 57

1. The erection, restoration, modification and suppression of

patriarchal Churches is reserved to the supreme authority of the

Church. 2. Only the supreme authority of the Church [i.e. the Vatican] can modify the legitimately recognized or conceded title of each patriarchal Church. 3. If it is possible, a patriarchal Church must

have a permanent see for the residence of the patriarch in a

principal city inside its own territory from which the patriarch

takes his title; this see cannot be transferred except for a most

grave reason and with the consent of the synod of bishops of the

patriarchal Church and the assent of the Roman Pontiff.
 
Canon 58

Patriarchs of Eastern Churches precede all bishops of any degree

everywhere in the world, with due regard for special norms of

precedence established by the Roman Pontiff
.
 
Canon 59

1. Patriarchs of Eastern Churches, even if some are of later

times, are all equal by reason of patriarchal dignity with due

regard for the precedence of honor among them. [PRIMACY OF HONOR?  I THOUGHT PRIMACY HAD TO HAVE POWER ATTACHED TO IT.  At least the Ultramontanists keep on insisting on that in regard to the pope of Rome]  2. The order of

precedence among the ancient patriarchal sees of the Eastern

Churches is that in the first place comes the see of Constantinople, after that Alexandria, then Antioch and Jerusalem. 3.

Among the other patriarchs of the Eastern Churches, precedence is

ordered according to the antiquity of the patriarchal see. 4.

Among the patriarchs of the Eastern Churches who each are of the

same title but who preside over different patriarchal Churches,

he has precedence who was first promoted to the patriarchal dignity.
 
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG1199/_INDEX.HTM

We do NOT see the Church so operating in the first millenium.  Certainly not Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem nor Cyprus.
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« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2009, 09:13:29 PM »

And yet I have not seen 6 diocesan bishops in good standing reduced to auxiliaries at the stroke of the pen of the Pope of Rome.  The proof is in the pudding.

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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2009, 09:38:52 PM »

No, they are the pope of Rome's.

So you are now claiming every Catholic diocesan bishop is simply the Pope's auxiliary?  This is simply not catholic teaching even

Yes.  And I've been told that before.  Go ahead, give it your best shot. 

A bishop serves at the Vatican's pleasure, and there is no appeal from her.

As I write, I see on the news that the dear little leader in North Korea has been re-elected with 100%.  Must be popular.

Quote
if our ecclesiology is different than yours.

Canon 178

The eparchial bishop, as a vicar and legate of Christ, governs in his own name the eparchy entrusted to him for shepherding. This power, which he exercises personally in the name of Christ, is proper, ordinary, and immediate, although its exercise is ultimately regulated by the Supreme Authority of the Church and can be defined with certain limits should the usefulness of the Church or the Christian faithful require it.

Talk about an elastic clause.

This is a part that never made sense: why are there any eparchies outside of the patriarchate?

I know why we have them, and admittedly its a mess, but in theory this isn't the way it is supposed to go.  Compare for instance Russia, which qualifies as diaspora for the purposes of discussion here: none of the Ancient Patriarchs would have an eparchy in Russia (the situation in Estonia is not a question of having an eparchy in a foreign Patriarchate, but a question of which patriarchate Estonia belongs too, i.e. the usual "diaspora" question).  No Greek is under the CoG, nor the Church of Cyprus, though the vast majority of Greeks in the West come from there (Ozgeorge is an exception.  Is Australia in the West?).

The Vatican scheme, even in theory, takes the overlapping mess as perfectly natural.  Even in the ancient Patriarchates: 4 patriarchates in Antioch isn't seen as an issue.

And of course, it is telling that all these eparchies d'outre-mer are directly under the Vatican.

Or rather why are the Eastern patriarchates limited territorially, while the Latin Church is not?  This inequity is still a souce of contention between Rome and the Eastern Catholic Patriarchs, who want immdiate supervision over their diaspora's without Rome's intervention.  I have never said the CCEO was not in need of revision.  The Catholic Church accepts the idea of jurisdicitons be exercised over person rather than territory.
You are aware that the Catholic Church of the first millenium (and now) didn't operate that way, nor do the canons.  The closest is ethnicities without a fixed, territorial basis.

Quote
 A bishop may erect a parish for a certain ethnic group, language group, or members of another autonomos Church in his diocese. Diocese for Eastern Catholics may be erected in the same manner in the territory of the Latin Church.

The Catholic Church has only 3 Patriarchates in Antioch: Maronite, Melkite, and Syriac.

The Latin patriarch was only recently suppressed.  I knew people baptized and raised in the fraternal Latin patriarchate of Alexandria, living people only slightly older than I, and I am post Vatican II.  And I've been to the Latin one in Jerusalem (founded when? Roll Eyes)  And, as the canons, both West and East under the Vatican, make clear, it can be revived at any time.  Having been to Latin churches in Antioch herself in the early 90's, I know that is not an impossibility.

But besides that, what we see as a mess, as you have shown, is considered "normal," even canonical.
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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2009, 09:43:36 PM »

And yet I have not seen 6 diocesan bishops in good standing reduced to auxiliaries at the stroke of the pen of the Pope of Rome.  The proof is in the pudding.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Right, he just suppresses rites, divides up continents (like South America), tells Eastern Rite Catholics in India that they don't have canonical territory in areas of their own country, appoints patriarchs when their synod takes too long to elect one, transfers bishops at will, etc. Right, you all have more autonomy. I can't believe you can say stuff like this with a straight face.
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« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2009, 10:00:33 PM »

And yet I have not seen 6 diocesan bishops in good standing reduced to auxiliaries at the stroke of the pen of the Pope of Rome.  The proof is in the pudding.

Indeed it is.

1) History hasn't played the latest move out.  I know personally that there are priests who have not dropped their bishop from the diptychs.  Because, unlike the pope in the Vatican, Met. Phillip in NJ is not someone from whom no appeal may be taken.  For that matter, neither is Patriarch Ignatius in Damascus.

2) If you are a student of history, you have seen whole patriarchates eliminated and replaced: it is usually how the Vatican approves a rite (you are aware that this sui juris stuff is of even more recent vintage than the suppression of the Latin patriarchate of Antioch).  The Melkites are the exception in that.

3) you have seen several patriarchs reduced to the Vatican's vicars.
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« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2009, 10:36:34 PM »

Autonomy but Bishops are approved and picked by Rome for the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church and Rome had to approve the new liturgical texts before usage.  How is that autonomous?
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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2009, 10:43:37 PM »

Autonomy but Bishops are approved and picked by Rome for the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church and Rome had to approve the new liturgical texts before usage.  How is that autonomous?

Because the CCEC says it's autonomous.
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2009, 10:45:21 PM »



"Depends on what the meaning of is is"
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2009, 11:15:36 PM »

And yet I have not seen 6 diocesan bishops in good standing reduced to auxiliaries at the stroke of the pen of the Pope of Rome.  The proof is in the pudding.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Right, he just suppresses rites, divides up continents (like South America), tells Eastern Rite Catholics in India that they don't have canonical territory in areas of their own country, appoints patriarchs when their synod takes too long to elect one, transfers bishops at will, etc. Right, you all have more autonomy. I can't believe you can say stuff like this with a straight face.

Fr. Anastasios,

Lets deal with present reality.  The Pope has not suppressed a Rite in quite some time, and in fact some are making recent comebacks.  Rather than appoint patriarchs when the Synod has failed to elect one, twice the Pope has called the Synods to Rome for a second conclave to elect a patriarch, first with the Chaldean then the Syriacs.  I do think the situation with Syro-Malabars and Syro-Malankars unfair, but on the otherhand they had centuries to move out of Kerala and evangelize India but failed to do so leaving that to the Latins.  What should have been their territory became the Latin's by default.

Eastern Catholic Churches are constantly misrepresented and caricatured so that they may be made strawmen for the polemics that go on here.  Say what you will, but reducing 6 diocesan bishops to auxiliary status for no reason other than they exercised their autonomy is the most "papal" move I have seen from any Church, Catholic or Orthodox, in my lifetime.  

When was the last time Rome deposed a bishop?  Archbishops Lefebvre or Milingo.  Showing how far one has to go. Father, you were once Catholic.  You know the extent to which bishops can defy Rome, ignore its decrees for good or ill, go their on way, in a word exercise autonomy whether Rome wishes it or no.  As Admin of this site you should take care that this site even as it promotes Orthodoxy does so without unfair characterizations and half truths.  I have never claimed Eastern Catholic Churches function with same autocephaly their Orthodox counterparts do.  To pretend as if we have no autonomy is as dishonest as Eastern Catholics who try and claim we have full autocephaly and the Pope has no jurisdiction over us.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2009, 11:17:13 PM »



"Depends on what the meaning of is is"

LOL.  It's even funnier:

In Arabic there is no word for "is." LOL.
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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2009, 11:21:59 PM »

Autonomy but Bishops are approved and picked by Rome for the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church and Rome had to approve the new liturgical texts before usage.  How is that autonomous?

Is not the definition of an Autonomous Orthodox Church one whose hierach is selected by another Autocephalous Church?

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« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2009, 11:26:38 PM »

Autonomy but Bishops are approved and picked by Rome for the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church and Rome had to approve the new liturgical texts before usage.  How is that autonomous?

Is not the definition of an Autonomous Orthodox Church one whose hierach is selected by another Autocephalous Church?

Fr. Deacon Lance

But yet, Greek Catholic Churches are not Orthodox.  In itself from the ground up the definitions that are common between us usually have different meanings and contexts.
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« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2009, 11:36:03 PM »

Dcn. Lance was Cardinal Law not deposed in 2002 by the Roman Catholic Church?

No, his resignation from the See of Boston was accepted and he was promoted to an assigment in Rome, cardinal archpriest of St. Mary Major I believe.  Not unlike the "promotion" of Archbishop Nicholas Elko from the See of Pittsburgh to Ordaining Prelate for Greek Catholics in Rome.

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« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2009, 11:37:50 PM »

And yet I have not seen 6 diocesan bishops in good standing reduced to auxiliaries at the stroke of the pen of the Pope of Rome.  The proof is in the pudding.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Right, he just suppresses rites, divides up continents (like South America), tells Eastern Rite Catholics in India that they don't have canonical territory in areas of their own country, appoints patriarchs when their synod takes too long to elect one, transfers bishops at will, etc. Right, you all have more autonomy. I can't believe you can say stuff like this with a straight face.

Fr. Anastasios,

Lets deal with present reality.  The Pope has not suppressed a Rite in quite some time,


That's quite a caveat.  What?

The Pope has not suppressed a Rite in quite some time,
Roll Eyes

Let's continue.
Quote
and in fact some are making recent comebacks.
Yeah, the fall of communism will do that to you.

Quote
Rather than appoint patriarchs when the Synod has failed to elect one, twice the Pope has called the Synods to Rome for a second conclave to elect a patriarch, first with the Chaldean then the Syriacs.  I do think the situation with Syro-Malabars and Syro-Malankars unfair, but on the otherhand they had centuries to move out of Kerala and evangelize India but failed to do so leaving that to the Latins.

LOL.  The control of the "Holy Office" a/k/a the Inquision (just in it's worse Portuguese form, and even the more infamous even in Europe, Goa Inquistion by the personal request of the Jesuits' St. Paul, Francis Xavier) was so thorough that even today, the Orthodox still celebrate by the Vatican paschalion imposed on them.  Btw, the Goa Inquistion wasn't closed until 1812.

Leaving it to the Latins, eh?  They did such a great job of evangelizing North Africa, just across the water from Rome.

Quote
What should have been their territory became the Latin's by default.

and force of arms.

Quote
Eastern Catholic Churches are constantly misrepresented and caricatured so that they may be made strawmen for the polemics that go on here.  Say what you will, but reducing 6 diocesan bishops to auxiliary status for no other reason than their meto is the most "papal" move I have seen from any Church, Catholic or Orthodox, in my lifetime.  

I agree, it is "papal," even "papist."

Quote
When was the last time Rome deposed a bishop?  Archbishops Lefebvre or Milingo.  Showing how far one has to go. Father, you were once Catholic.  You know the extent to which bishops can defy Rome, ignore its decrees for good or ill, go their on way, in a word exercise autonomy whether Rome wishes it or no.

So it seems that "missing piece," that great "font of unity" won't solve our "problems" and "decificencies," no?

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« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2009, 11:45:28 PM »

But yet, Greek Catholic Churches are not Orthodox.  In itself from the ground up the definitions that are common between us usually have different meanings and contexts.

username!,

You just questioned how Greek Catholic Churches can claim autonomy when their hierarchs are picked by Rome, when in fact the same situation exists for certain Orthodox Churches.  I would agree there is something in our definitions that don't quite match up.  I would say the CCEO without defining it explicitly outlines quasi-autonomy(eparchies/exarchates), semi-autonomy (metropolitanates), autonomy(major archepiscopates), and semi-autocephaly (patriarchates).  I would agree full autocephaly as it exists among the Orthodox cannot exist under current Catholic canon law.  I would like to see full autonomy regardless of rank with the Synods electing their own bishops with simple confirmation coming from Rome.

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« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2009, 11:49:39 PM »

So it seems that "missing piece," that great "font of unity" won't solve our "problems" and "decificencies," no?

It would have prevented your metropolitan from putting the screws to his bishops.  Bishops can get away with somethings in their own dioceses.  Interference in anothers isn't tolerated to well.  Hence, Archbishop Lefebvre.

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« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2009, 12:09:38 AM »

So it seems that "missing piece," that great "font of unity" won't solve our "problems" and "decificencies," no?

It would have prevented your metropolitan from putting the screws to his bishops.  Bishops can get away with somethings in their own dioceses.  Interference in anothers isn't tolerated to well. 

LOL.  Wasn't that was 1054 was all about?
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« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2009, 02:04:01 PM »

About to start: Mother Gavrilia: “A Holocaust to His Love”.
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« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2009, 02:29:22 PM »

About to start: Mother Gavrilia: “A Holocaust to His Love”.
http://www.abbamoses.com/mothergav.html
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« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2009, 04:01:18 PM »

Dear Fr Deacon Lance,

I do not wish to only deal with the present reality, because the papacy has shifted over the centuries and I beleive it is important to this assessment to compare present models with past models. Since the popes claim that they are above judgment (cf. Dictatus papae), what is to stop an older model from being reemployed should circumstances change?

When I spoke of the pope directly appointing a patriarch, I seem to recall a situation with the Maronite patriarch some decades ago. Am I mistaken?  As far as the pope directing the other synods to call a second conclave, this actually works against your argument--they obviously knew the pope would intervene so this probably figured in to their procedure. I have noted that no Orthodox Synod in recent memory has ever deadlocked on the election of a patriarch. If I am wrong, please advise me.

The idea that the Syro-Malabars and Syro-Malankaras had centuries to evangelize seems untrue; while the original St Thomas Christians did seem to have taken on a quasi-caste system early on and stopped evangelizing, it would have been exceedingly difficult for them to have continued up north anyway with Hindu and later Muslim pressures. In the present, there are missions of these churches in the North of India where they must have their bishops elected in concert with Rome, while of course the Latins do no such reciprocation in the South of India to my knowledge.  If the Latin Church were really interested in equality, they would give the Indian Churches full canonical territory over India.

I do not agree with you that Eastern Rite Catholics are constantly straw-manned and used for polemics. You must be aware at the heat we take for refusing to allow the term Uniate--which in its original use is a perfectly accurate exposition of your Church--to be used since it has taken on quite the perjorative use.  The administration of this site strives to be fair to Eastern Rite Catholics on this website, but at the same time, you know that we do not reciprocate your feelings of sister Churchhood and the like.

The idea that an unfinished and possibly uncanonical act of a local Synod is somehow the most papal act of your lifetime seems incomprehensible to me, and that is why I responded in such a direct fashion. It almost sounds like this is the way you justify your position.  Whether the pope has "soft" restraints to the exercise of his power seems irrelevant to this discussion--it is like comparing apples to oranges. The best of a theoretical Catholicism (i.e. the Pope only exercises his power in concert with the college of bishops) is contrasted to the worst of Orthodoxy (i.e. a local Synod oversteps the canons).  Why don't we compare the worst of Orthodoxy to the worst of Catholicism instead?  Why don't we look at the fact that the Pope can do far more than any Orthodox bishop, and routinely does? So please do not tell me that since I was Catholic I know what bishops can get away with. Because I also know what Rome can get away with.

Quote
As Admin of this site you should take care that this site even as it promotes Orthodoxy does so without unfair characterizations and half truths.  I have never claimed Eastern Catholic Churches function with same autocephaly their Orthodox counterparts do.  To pretend as if we have no autonomy is as dishonest as Eastern Catholics who try and claim we have full autocephaly and the Pope has no jurisdiction over us.

I would take offense at what you wrote to me, but you are probably responding in this manner since I was direct to you first.  Why was I direct though? Because your original post seems to be almost a gloating. It may not have been intended that way, but it looks either like gloating or a self-justification for why it's ok to remain Eastern Rite Catholic. I don't pretend that you do not have autonomy, but I believe it is disingenuous to state that it is the same kind of autonomy that Orthodox autonomous Churches have.  Your own canon law makes it clear that it can be revoked at any time, despite "soft" influences the contrary.  So I am not misrepresenting Eastern Rite Catholicism, and you may prefer not to direct me on how to administrate this site, especially given the steps we have taken in the past and continue to take to protect members of your Church from being insulted on this site personally via prejoratives.  I sat down last night and read Pastor Aeternus again just to make sure I was not misrepresenting anything and that document makes it blatantly clear that the Pope has direct jurisdiction over every single Christian.

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2009, 10:17:55 PM »

Dear Fr. Anastasios,

I must disagree.  I think the best of Orthodoxy is constantly compared to the worst of Catholicism on this site.  I do apologize if I offended.  I shall limit my posts to answering questions about my Church as my participation in these arguements over how others view my Church, which I cannot control, are not doing me any spiritual good.  Have a good Fast.

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