Author Topic: Western Orthodoxy in New England  (Read 8751 times)

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Offline Starlight

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Western Orthodoxy in New England
« on: March 09, 2009, 08:32:41 PM »
Hence a new post has been done in an existing thread, something that brings attention has been noticed.

ROCOR doesn't list any in Rhode Island (I don't doubt that there is one there, just saying that they don't have it listed), but if you wanted to see where there other Churches are, you could look here: http://www.orthodox.net/directory/

I'm looking specifically for a Western Rite Orthodox church, Paradosis, one near enough for me to visit at least once and compare with the Byzantine Rite Orthodoxy to which I am so accustomed.  Nik said there was a Western Rite ROCOR parish in Rhode Island, so I've sent an email to the Hieromonk James at the email address which Nik furnished for further information.  The Antiochian Archdiocese does not have any Western Rite parishes in New England.  But thanks for the directory site.

Hypo-Ortho

Hypo-Ortho of blessed memory was an extraordinary contributor to OC.net, a gentleman of brilliant erudition, complete integrity and constant friendliness.

Since the time of his post, certain things have changed for the better in a situation of Western Orthodoxy in New England.

In October 2008, (2) Charismatic Episcopal parishes came home to Orthodoxy, and by doing so, they joined the family of Western Rite Antiochian communities in New England.
Emmanuel Orthodox Catholic Church - Warren, MA:
http://www.emmanuelorthodox.org/
St. Stephen's Orthodox Catholic Church - Springfield, MA:
http://www.ststephensorthodox.org/

In late 2007, Christminster, or Christ the Savior Monastery, a Benedictine Western Rite Orthodox monastery (ROCOR) relocated from Pawtucket, RI to Hamilton, Ontario, Canada:
http://www.christminster.org/

As a community of former parishioners of the aforementioned monastery, St. Cuthbert Orthodox Mission (ROCOR) now operates in Pawtucket, RI:
http://mail.white-rabbit.ca/churchsites/www.christminster.org/Saint%20Cuthbert%20Mission.pdf



« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 08:34:02 PM by Starlight »

Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2009, 08:20:03 PM »
What a beautiful church . My first experience in the Orthodox church was at a Western rite church. Everything was so familiar to me that I could have sworn I was in a Roman Catholic church. I am so glad for the resurrection of the liturgy of St Gregory. It truly was a buried treasure. The Orthodox unburied it.
There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Offline Starlight

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2009, 11:19:24 PM »

Thank you, Christus Dominus.

I am so glad for the resurrection of the liturgy of St Gregory. It truly was a buried treasure. The Orthodox unburied it.

Really so! Well said.

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2009, 09:16:01 AM »
Hypo-Ortho of blessed memory was an extraordinary contributor to OC.net, a gentleman of brilliant erudition, complete integrity and constant friendliness.
This is slightly off topic, but who was he anyway? Why was he allowed to post as a guest, and not a member? Is he still around? What happened to him?

Offline Ebor

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2009, 09:35:28 AM »
Hypo-Ortho wasn't a guest when he was with us.  But he passed away about 5 1/2 years ago, may he rest in Peace :( 
That was when "guest" was put on his account as I recall.

He was courteous and interesting and I remember that he and I would post about books among other topics.

Ebor


« Last Edit: June 03, 2009, 09:37:20 AM by Ebor »
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Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2009, 09:53:46 AM »
Hypo-Ortho wasn't a guest when he was with us.  But he passed away about 5 1/2 years ago, may he rest in Peace :( 
That was when "guest" was put on his account as I recall.

He was courteous and interesting and I remember that he and I would post about books among other topics.

Ebor



Thanks. May he be in rest.

Offline Starlight

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2009, 10:03:22 AM »
PoorFoolNicholas, thank you for your interest. Ebor, thank you for your input.

I have been reading this forum for awhile before I started to post. Hypo-Ortho was an excellent guy. Very nice and knowledgeable. May he rest in peace. Some more information about Hypo-Ortho may be found here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10301.0.html

Hypo-Ortho lived in the western part of Massachusetts. I believe this was his community: http://www.stspp.org/ - Saints Peter and Paul Orthodox Church in Springfield, MA (OCA). Hypo-Ortho wrote here that he really enjoyed his parish.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2009, 10:04:52 AM by Starlight »

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2009, 01:05:48 AM »
What's up with all of the Western Rite churches having Byzantine Icons at the front?  That's not very "Western", now is it?


Offline Rowan

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2009, 04:29:14 PM »
What's up with all of the Western Rite churches having Byzantine Icons at the front?  That's not very "Western", now is it?

A Catholic Church near my relatives has an eastern-style icon in it (Our Lady of Perpetual Help) and I've seen other traditional non-Orthodox western churches with byzantine-style mosaics and icons as well.  The western tradition at the grassroots seems to be willing to integrate, or there was a free-flow of sacred art styles b/w east and west.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2009, 04:34:09 PM »
What's up with all of the Western Rite churches having Byzantine Icons at the front?  That's not very "Western", now is it?



Look at that VERY Western Latin Rite church of Poland: what is at its center?
\
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2009, 03:27:06 AM »
I think he was expecting to see this:

There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Offline Alpo

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2009, 07:12:51 AM »
What's up with all of the Western Rite churches having Byzantine Icons at the front?  That's not very "Western", now is it?

I've been wondering the same thing. My gut feeling says that they should be using more western-looking iconography. Not the realistic art one can see in RC churches such as this but perhaps more something like this and this.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 07:20:25 AM by Alpo »
The user should probably be sleeping by now.

Offline Rowan

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2009, 10:36:57 AM »
I think he was expecting to see this:



Holy Incarnation in Lincoln Park, MI almost looks like that (with its wood and statues), but that takes time and money. Baby steps!
Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. ~Philippians 4:8; St Paul

Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2009, 03:51:33 PM »
Yes! lots of money. But I do hope in its their agenda.
There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Offline Clancy Boy

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2009, 04:57:00 AM »
As an Irish-American Orthodox I need to know some things about this Western Rite. 

- My (Bulgarian) Orthodox friend tells me it isn't true Orthodoxy because it doesn't use the same liturgy and people don't stand up.

- Is it in communion with Byzantium?

- Is it in communion with (gasp) Rome?


Offline mike

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2009, 05:16:50 AM »
1st Welcome to the forum!

- My (Bulgarian) Orthodox friend tells me it isn't true Orthodoxy because it doesn't use the same liturgy and people don't stand up.

It is true Orthodox Rite approved and used (or was used) by many autocephalous Churches (I know about Russian, Antiochian, Serbian, Romanian and Polish).

Quote
Is it in communion with Byzantium?

The Western Rite Parishes, which are under Churches of Serbia, Antioch an Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia are in communion with the rest of the mainstream Orthodox Churches. However there are some WR parishes which have "Orthodox" on their name but aren't ones. It have to be checked out what jurisdiction does the Parish you want to go belongs to.

Quote
- Is it in communion with (gasp) Rome?

No.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 05:17:47 AM by mike »
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Offline Clancy Boy

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2009, 05:22:46 AM »
1st Welcome to the forum!

- My (Bulgarian) Orthodox friend tells me it isn't true Orthodoxy because it doesn't use the same liturgy and people don't stand up.

It is true Orthodox Rite approved and used (or was used) by many autocephalous Churches (I know about Russian, Antiochian, Serbian, Romanian and Polish).

Quote
Is it in communion with Byzantium?

The Western Rite Parishes, which are under Churches of Serbia, Antioch an Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia are in communion with the rest of the mainstream Orthodox Churches. However there are some WR parishes which have "Orthodox" on their name but aren't ones. It have to be checked out what jurisdiction does the Parish you want to go belongs to.

Thanks Mike.  So if I was baptized in a Russian Orthodox church I could attend any one of these if I liked?

Also what relationship does the Western Rite have to the Anglican church?  I think I've heard WR brought up in that context.

Offline mike

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2009, 05:31:13 AM »
Thanks Mike.  So if I was baptized in a Russian Orthodox church I could attend any one of these if I liked?

Yes. In the USA majority of canonical WR Parishes is under Church of Antioch but there are a few Russian also. You can participate in services and in sacraments there.



Quote
Also what relationship does the Western Rite have to the Anglican church?  I think I've heard WR brought up in that context.

One of the Liturgy it is using is a modified Anglican Mass. Many of the WR Priests and believers are converts from Anglicanism.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 05:31:32 AM by mike »
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Offline Clancy Boy

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2009, 05:34:35 AM »
Thanks Mike.  So if I was baptized in a Russian Orthodox church I could attend any one of these if I liked?

Yes. In the USA majority of canonical WR Parishes is under Church of Antioch but there are a few Russian also. You can participate in services and in sacraments there.



Quote
Also what relationship does the Western Rite have to the Anglican church?  I think I've heard WR brought up in that context.

One of the Liturgy it is using is a modified Anglican Mass. Many of the WR Priests and believers are converts from Anglicanism.

It's ok to use a different mass?

Offline mike

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2009, 05:46:08 AM »
As far as I know there are now 5 Eastern Rite DLs and 4 Western Rite DLs used by EO Church:

Eastern:
- DL of St. John the Goldenmouth (normal Liturgy, the one most frequently used)
- DL of St. Basil the Great (is different a bit from St. John's - has different consecration prayers and some other things; it's used in Sundays of Great Lent)
- DL of St. James the Just (is very different from the two above, it's used in Church of Jerusalem and on St. James Day in other Churches)
- DL of St. Mark (I don't know much 'bout it, it's used in Church of Alexandria and sometimes in ROCOR)
- DL of Presanctified Gifts (modified Vespers, Gifts, which was consecrated previously are given, used in the weekdays of Great lent, when normal DL cannot be served)

Western:
- DL of St. Tikhon of Moscow (modified Anglican Mass, used by Antiochian WR Parishes)
- DL of St. Gregory (modified Tridentine Mass)
- DL of St. Germanus of Paris (used by Romanian Parishes in France)
- Sarum Use (used sometimes by ROCOR)
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 05:47:02 AM by mike »
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Offline Clancy Boy

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2009, 05:49:20 AM »
Wow Mike you know everything!

Thanks a lot

Edit: One last question,

Is there such thing as a WR (Latin?) prayerbook and if so where can I find one?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 05:52:46 AM by Clancy Boy »

Offline mike

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2009, 05:52:48 AM »
I'm afraid I don't, but thanks
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2009, 03:38:31 PM »

Is there such thing as a WR (Latin?) prayerbook and if so where can I find one?
A Western Rite Missal in Latin? The Tridentine Mass is the mass of Pope St. Gregory. Might that missal work?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 03:43:44 PM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2009, 03:49:55 PM »

Is there such thing as a WR (Latin?) prayerbook and if so where can I find one?
A Western Rite Missal in Latin? The Tridentine Mass is the mass of Pope St. Gregory. Might that missal work?
No.

There are some modification, lex orandi, lex credendi, to the Tridentine Missal for WRO.
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2009, 03:59:35 PM »
No.

There are some modification, lex orandi, lex credendi, to the Tridentine Missal for WRO.
Byzantinations? I know what they are. It's like saying that the ancient Roman mass of the pre-schism west was always incomplete or lacking.
There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2009, 04:05:32 PM »
No.

There are some modification, lex orandi, lex credendi, to the Tridentine Missal for WRO.
Byzantinations? I know what they are. It's like saying that the ancient Roman mass of the pre-schism west was always incomplete or lacking.

Orthodox Rome did not believe in the system of merits of the saints, accretions of which are in the Tridentine Mass, removed by the WRO.  Additions that do not contradict Orthodoxy, like the Second Gospel and the Leonide prayers, are retained.

There was no need to insert the epiclesis of Constantinople in the ancient Roman liturgy, as its Orthodoxy was not in question, necessitating that shibboleth.
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2009, 04:47:45 PM »
Orthodox Rome did not believe in the system of merits of the saints, accretions of which are in the Tridentine Mass, removed by the WRO.  Additions that do not contradict Orthodoxy, like the Second Gospel and the Leonide prayers, are retained.

There was no need to insert the epiclesis of Constantinople in the ancient Roman liturgy, as its Orthodoxy was not in question, necessitating that shibboleth.
Can you specifically list these accretions?
There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Offline witega

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2009, 04:55:37 PM »
Orthodox Rome did not believe in the system of merits of the saints, accretions of which are in the Tridentine Mass, removed by the WRO.  Additions that do not contradict Orthodoxy, like the Second Gospel and the Leonide prayers, are retained.

There was no need to insert the epiclesis of Constantinople in the ancient Roman liturgy, as its Orthodoxy was not in question, necessitating that shibboleth.
Can you specifically list these accretions?

15 seconds with a computer produced this information: Pope Pius V "made this revision of the Roman Missal, which included the introduction of the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and the addition of all that in his Missal follows the Ite missa est, at the request that the Council of Trent (1545-1563)" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Tridentine_Mass

There's a reason it's called the *Tridentine* Mass. Yes, it's based on the Mass of St. Gregory but you don't honestly think it remained unchanged for 1000 years do you?
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2009, 05:03:02 PM »

It's ok to use a different mass?

Of course it is! There were dozens of different liturgies present in the Church before the Chalcedonian Schism and still plenty of Western rite churches after that up until the East-West Schism. One could make the argument that these western rites are not being held to a high enough level of rigor in doctrine and liturgical form, but one simply cannot logically argue that one cannot in any way be Western rite and Orthodox.
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2009, 05:05:06 PM »
No.

There are some modification, lex orandi, lex credendi, to the Tridentine Missal for WRO.
Byzantinations? I know what they are. It's like saying that the ancient Roman mass of the pre-schism west was always incomplete or lacking.

What makes you think that the Tridentine Mass and the Mass established by Gregory the Great are equivalent?
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2009, 05:47:26 PM »
15 seconds with a computer produced this information: Pope Pius V "made this revision of the Roman Missal, which included the introduction of the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and the addition of all that in his Missal follows the Ite missa est, at the request that the Council of Trent (1545-1563)" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Tridentine_Mass

There's a reason it's called the *Tridentine* Mass. Yes, it's based on the Mass of St. Gregory but you don't honestly think it remained unchanged for 1000 years do you?
Wow! 15 seconds eh? Lightning quick.

What is the reason it's called the Tridentine Mass? That's not when it was formulated (Council of Trent). It has exisited for many centuries. Revisions, although slight, have been made. Has the Divine Liturgy remained unchanged?
There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2009, 05:55:50 PM »

What makes you think that the Tridentine Mass and the Mass established by Gregory the Great are equivalent?
I'll answer with another question; what makes you think they are not? I'd like your input.
There is no more evident sign that anyone is a saint and of the number of the elect, than to see him leading a good life and at the same time a prey to desolation, suffering, and trials. - Saint Aloysius Gonzaga

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2009, 06:28:07 PM »

What makes you think that the Tridentine Mass and the Mass established by Gregory the Great are equivalent?
I'll answer with another question; what makes you think they are not? I'd like your input.

I'm not confident that they're not. Just suspicious.
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Offline witega

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2009, 10:00:44 PM »
What is the reason it's called the Tridentine Mass? That's not when it was formulated (Council of Trent). It has exisited for many centuries.

That is when it was standardized. St. Gregory's original Mass had quite a number of descendents over the centuries. The Council of Trent selected one, added some alterations of their own and made it the standard for the entirety of the Roman Church.

Quote
Revisions, although slight, have been made. Has the Divine Liturgy remained unchanged?

Definitely not. But that was never the question. The question was, is the Tridentine Mass exactly the same as the ancient Gregorian Mass (which would, of course, be recognized as fully Orthodox) or had it, like every other liturgy in existence, acquired changes/additions/subtractions over the centuries. Changes/additions/subtractions which the Orthodox Church might find questionable by our standards and require revision to be used in Orthodox service.
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2009, 12:19:52 AM »
That is when it was standardized. St. Gregory's original Mass had quite a number of descendents over the centuries. The Council of Trent selected one, added some alterations of their own and made it the standard for the entirety of the Roman Church.
Can you please show me proof of this? And which "Mass" did the Council select? (according to your theory)



« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 12:21:07 AM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2009, 12:29:05 AM »

Definitely not. But that was never the question. The question was, is the Tridentine Mass exactly the same as the ancient Gregorian Mass (which would, of course, be recognized as fully Orthodox) or had it, like every other liturgy in existence, acquired changes/additions/subtractions over the centuries. Changes/additions/subtractions which the Orthodox Church might find questionable by our standards and require revision to be used in Orthodox service.
Let me show you the real question:
Quote
author: deusveritasest on Yesterday at 05:05:06 PM

What makes you think that the Tridentine Mass and the Mass established by Gregory the Great are equivalent?

« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 12:29:38 AM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline witega

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2009, 01:08:51 AM »
That is when it was standardized. St. Gregory's original Mass had quite a number of descendents over the centuries. The Council of Trent selected one, added some alterations of their own and made it the standard for the entirety of the Roman Church.
Can you please show me proof of this? And which "Mass" did the Council select? (according to your theory)

Educating you in your own theological tradition is not a part of why I spend time on this forum. There are plenty of good scholarly history's of the Western liturgy if you actually want to see some of the differences--starting with the Catholic Encyclopedia which I believe is available online. The Roman liturgy has changed over the centuries (and that's without even considering the fact that we don't have documentation of St. Gregory's actual practice--it has to be inferred from surviving documents which generations removed from the saint), this is an indisputable fact. I leave to others with more interest the question of what is salvagable.
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2009, 01:16:55 AM »
That is when it was standardized. St. Gregory's original Mass had quite a number of descendents over the centuries. The Council of Trent selected one, added some alterations of their own and made it the standard for the entirety of the Roman Church.
Can you please show me proof of this? And which "Mass" did the Council select? (according to your theory)

Educating you in your own theological tradition is not a part of why I spend time on this forum. There are plenty of good scholarly history's of the Western liturgy if you actually want to see some of the differences--starting with the Catholic Encyclopedia which I believe is available online. The Roman liturgy has changed over the centuries (and that's without even considering the fact that we don't have documentation of St. Gregory's actual practice--it has to be inferred from surviving documents which generations removed from the saint), this is an indisputable fact. I leave to others with more interest the question of what is salvagable.

YOU are educating me on my own traditions? Is that like a German teaching an Irishman  how to be a good Irishman? I actually feel that most people, like you, have to knock everything beautiful we have. I just don't understand it, but I see a few people here do it. Not all, just a handfull. You are included.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 01:24:11 AM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2009, 01:23:02 AM »
Educating you in your own theological tradition is not a part of why I spend time on this forum. There are plenty of good scholarly history's of the Western liturgy if you actually want to see some of the differences--starting with the Catholic Encyclopedia which I believe is available online. The Roman liturgy has changed over the centuries (and that's without even considering the fact that we don't have documentation of St. Gregory's actual practice--it has to be inferred from surviving documents which generations removed from the saint), this is an indisputable fact. I leave to others with more interest the question of what is salvagable.

Let me show you something before go:

'Some Western rite Orthodox Christians, particularly in the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America, use the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular with minor alterations under the title of the "Divine Liturgy of St. Gregory."

Also, most Old Catholics say the Tridentine Mass in either the vernacular or Latin.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tridentine_mass
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 01:33:55 AM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2009, 01:37:56 AM »

Educating you in your own theological tradition is not a part of why I spend time on this forum. There are plenty of good scholarly history's of the Western liturgy if you actually want to see some of the differences--starting with the Catholic Encyclopedia which I believe is available online. The Roman liturgy has changed over the centuries (and that's without even considering the fact that we don't have documentation of St. Gregory's actual practice--it has to be inferred from surviving documents which generations removed from the saint), this is an indisputable fact. I leave to others with more interest the question of what is salvagable.

Believe me, I would never ask you to educate me on my own traditions, unless I wanted biased information.
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« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 02:52:30 PM by mike »
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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2009, 03:27:42 PM »
Is there such thing as a WR (Latin?) prayerbook and if so where can I find one?

St. Ambrose Prayerbook | More info on it...
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2009, 01:58:06 AM »
Orthodox Rome did not believe in the system of merits of the saints, accretions of which are in the Tridentine Mass, removed by the WRO.  Additions that do not contradict Orthodoxy, like the Second Gospel and the Leonide prayers, are retained.

There was no need to insert the epiclesis of Constantinople in the ancient Roman liturgy, as its Orthodoxy was not in question, necessitating that shibboleth.
I agree.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 01:59:34 AM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline Michał

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2009, 03:43:18 AM »
- DL of St. James the Just (is very different from the two above, it's used in Church of Jerusalem and on St. James Day in other Churches)
- DL of St. Mark (I don't know much 'bout it, it's used in Church of Alexandria and sometimes in ROCOR)

These two Liturgies are indeed the original liturgical rites of the Churches of Jerusalem and Alexandria, but today these Churches use the DL of St John Chrysostom on a regular basis, as all the Eastern Orthodox Churches do.

DL of St. Germanus of Paris (used by Romanian Parishes in France)

AFAIK, these parishes are currently under the Serbs, not Romanians.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2009, 04:39:52 AM »
Is there such thing as a WR (Latin?) prayerbook and if so where can I find one?

Orthodox prayers of Old England

Quote
Except for the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and the Jesus Prayer, everything is from the old tradition of the Western church. There are no modern Roman Catholic items.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 04:40:37 AM by Alpo »
The user should probably be sleeping by now.

Offline mike

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2009, 03:06:13 PM »
Romanian Parishes in France)

AFAIK, these parishes are currently under the Serbs, not Romanians.
[/quote]

Thanks. I always mess that.
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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2009, 09:12:30 AM »
I have no idea. Try asking Reader KevinAndrew as he is an Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate member.
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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2011, 02:27:12 AM »
The Oratory of Our Lady of Glastonbury with a Benedictine monastery next door AND Orthodox too - I am smiling sooooo much. It is glorious news and I am glad Christminster will now have room to grow.

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2011, 09:17:43 PM »
The Oratory of Our Lady of Glastonbury with a Benedictine monastery next door AND Orthodox too - I am smiling sooooo much. It is glorious news and I am glad Christminster will now have room to grow.
"In Communion with the Orthodox Church" and "Orthodox" are two different things.
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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2011, 04:07:14 AM »
The Oratory of Our Lady of Glastonbury with a Benedictine monastery next door AND Orthodox too - I am smiling sooooo much. It is glorious news and I am glad Christminster will now have room to grow.
"In Communion with the Orthodox Church" and "Orthodox" are two different things.

What are you talking about?
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Offline Reader KevinAndrew

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2011, 05:41:35 AM »
I have no idea. Try asking Reader KevinAndrew as he is an Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate member.

There are none that I know of. Definitely no AWRV-published materials in Latin. I know that they have a Latin mass from time to time at St. Mark's in Denver, but those materials are probably put together at the parish level. Fr. John at St. Mark's could confirm the materials he uses for that service.

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2011, 05:46:52 AM »
The Oratory of Our Lady of Glastonbury with a Benedictine monastery next door AND Orthodox too - I am smiling sooooo much. It is glorious news and I am glad Christminster will now have room to grow.
"In Communion with the Orthodox Church" and "Orthodox" are two different things.
Asking the Orthodox bishop who overees the diocese under which the OOLG operates would clarify that question, as it relates to that particular parish.

Offline mike

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #53 on: February 10, 2011, 05:55:14 AM »
Asking the Orthodox bishop who overees the diocese under which the OOLG operates would clarify that question, as it relates to that particular parish.

Well, no. Christminster (as any other ROCOR WR structure) is a stavropegial institution ;P
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Offline Reader KevinAndrew

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #54 on: February 10, 2011, 06:01:52 AM »
Asking the Orthodox bishop who overees the diocese under which the OOLG operates would clarify that question, as it relates to that particular parish.

Well, no. Christminster (as any other ROCOR WR structure) is a stavropegial institution ;P
Do these folks have any oversight by a bishop?

Offline mike

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Re: Western Orthodoxy in New England
« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2011, 07:13:14 AM »
Yes, by Metropolitan Hilarion.
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