Author Topic: My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists  (Read 13502 times)

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Offline Anastasios

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Dear Friends,

As one of the administrators of this board, and after having posted some strong defenses of the New Calendar, I just wanted to assure our Old Calendarist bretheren that I have nothing against them and I believe they are great people.  I also respect their calendar and the reasons why they put forth the theory that the Old Calendar is the Calendar of the Church.

I just didn't want it to seem like I was attacking Old Calendarists or bashing them.  I have a lot of respect for the way the Old Calendarists have kept the faith, etc.  And as a response to Orthodoxy or Death, I do read the writings of the Etna group and find them profitable.

As for in or out of communion Old Calendarists, I'd say that of course I prefer Old Calendarists in union with New Calendarists (I have flirted with the idea of joining say the Old Calendarists under Constantinople, affilitated with St. Irene Chrysovalantou monastery in Astoria, NY), but that I also respect (but do not agree with) the resistence Churches not in communion with New Calendarists, or at least not in communion with ROCOR.

Either way, all Old Calendarists remain open to post on this board, and always will (but if they attack New Calendarists, which they can if it is not personal, they must be prepared for a response!)

In Christ,

anastasios
« Last Edit: November 04, 2002, 06:53:07 PM by anastasios »
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Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism and may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.

Offline sinjinsmythe

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2002, 01:58:35 AM »
It pains me to see modern Orthodoxy divided like this.  I pray that God would lead us to the truth in all of this.  Personally on the calendar, I agree with what the Old Calenderists say.  I think it was a very bad idea to change the calendar when it messes up the church liturgical cycle.  I do think that we can have different calendars and still be Orthodox in belief and praxis.
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Offline JoeS

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2002, 11:41:52 AM »
Old Calendar, New Calendar, beards, no beards, pews, no pews - are these really what makes one Orthodox????????

JoeS

Offline SamB

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2002, 03:36:32 PM »
The beard maybe......... (tongue in cheek)

Imagine Mount Athos filled with nothing but beardless monks.........<shudder>

Beardless cats are fine however (too much of those critters on the Holy Mountain anyways).  

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Hypo-Ortho

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2002, 06:21:08 PM »
Old Calendar, New Calendar, beards, no beards, pews, no pews - are these really what makes one Orthodox????????

JoeS
 

Absolutely not, Joe, but they do help.  We shouldn't let ourselves fall into the category of "Calendar worshippers," but, IMHO, there is a legitimate place for retaining venerable traditions of long standing, e.g., bearded clergy and pewless churches, and not adopting the *Roman* clerical collar and Protestant business suits by our priests, in Orthodoxy.  

Orthodox worship was *not* designed to incorporate pews which restrict our movements in our Father's House, e.g., during the full incensations of the Temple during Vespers, and which completely restrict our doing full prostrations at the weekday services of Great Lent, when they are specifically called for by the rubrics and the very spirit of the services.

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Offline Mattheos

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2002, 08:48:35 PM »
I think there is only one way to look at this issue, because, in the Orthodox faith there is only one way that is true.

The old/new calendar is an issue that is very sad. I prefer the Old Calendar (and even though I worship according to the New Calendar and sometimes visit a canonical monastery in the Hills of Adelaide with the Old Calendar under the Patriarchate of Antioch).

I believe the New Calendar is an innexcusable error. It was condemmed as a heretical innovation by the partiarchate of Constantinople when the Papists invented it in the 1600s (I think). It has faults, such as the the Fast of the Holy Apostles, which did not happen this year!! The method in which it was introduced was wrong. And it was not accepted in a pan-Orthodox sence and as such it has made relations difficult between churches (such as Serbia and Greece - where the latter are feasting and the former are fasting in preparation for Christmas).

However, I have a problem with the Old Calendarists who have decided to retain the calendar instead of retaining the unity of the faith. If there is no canonical communion with the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, I belive that is a schism.

I would like some discussion on your views on the Monastery of Sts Cyprian and Justina (Fili, Attica, Greece)who are reputedly in communion with Jerusalem. Also, what is the view of the Church on the number of Orthodox churches a particular church must share communion with in order for it's canonicality to be valid (I have heard 4 churches are needed). Similarly, I would like some discussion on the Russia Abroad church which is not part of the Canonical Russian Orthodox Patriarchate of Moscow.

In Christ

Mattheos
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Hypo-Ortho

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2003, 02:16:08 PM »
I think there is only one way to look at this issue, because, in the Orthodox faith there is only one way that is true.
<snip>
I believe the New Calendar is an innexcusable error.
<snip>
However, I have a problem with the Old Calendarists who have decided to retain the calendar instead of retaining the unity of the faith. If there is no canonical communion with the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, I belive that is a schism.

I would like some discussion on your views on the Monastery of Sts Cyprian and Justina (Fili, Attica, Greece)who are reputedly in communion with Jerusalem. Also, what is the view of the Church on the number of Orthodox churches a particular church must share communion with in order for it's canonicality to be valid (I have heard 4 churches are needed). Similarly, I would like some discussion on the Russia Abroad church which is not part of the Canonical Russian Orthodox Patriarchate of Moscow.

In Christ

Mattheos    

Mattheos, dear brother in Christ,

Happy New Year 2003 (Revised Julian Calendar)!

Concerning the Holy Monastery of Saints Cyprian and Justina in Fili (Attica), Greece: This monastery is the headquarters for the True (Old Calendar) Orthodox Church of Greece, Synod of Metropolitan Cyprian of Oropos and Fili (Attica), Greece.  Metropolitan Cyprian's Synod is not only in communion with the Patriarchate of Jerusalem--it is also in communion with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR or ROCA).  The ROCOR is in communion with the Patriarchate of Jerusalem and the Serbian Patriarchate.  So, indirectly, the TOC under Metropolitan Cyprian is in communion with the Serbian Patriarchate also through its communion with the ROCOR.  Does this make sense?

Read further.  The Patriarchate of Moscow is in communion with all the canonical Orthodox Patriarchates and other canonical Autocephalous and Autonomous Orthodox Churches throughout the world, *including* the Patriarchate of Jerusalem and the Serbian Patriarchate!  So, *indirectly* the ROCOR (and Metropolitan Cyprian's Synod as well) is in a kind of communion with them also, despite their not serving at each other's altars!  The situation is both scandalous and ridiculous and must be corrected speedily to show indeed that the Orthodox Church is ONE and has unity.

I have never heard the theory of the number of canonical Churches that an Orthodox Church must be in communion with to be canonically "valid."  This sounds like playing games with numbers.  The "validity" concept here appears to me to be more Latin than Orthodox.  However, I could be very wrong, and, if so, I am more than willing to submit to correction by someone more knowledgable than I in the field of Orthodox ecclesiology, where I am a self-taught lay amateur at best.

Respectfully,
Hypo-Ortho

Offline The young fogey

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2003, 02:40:19 PM »
-¥-+-¦-+-¦-+-¦-+-ï-¦ 2003 -¦. (-+-+ -+-+-¦-+-+-â -ü-é-+-+-â)

Quote
I have never heard the theory of the number of canonical Churches that an Orthodox Church must be in communion with to be canonically "valid."

Nor have I. My understanding is that communion with one Church of the Orthodox communion = being in the Orthodox communion, which has ROCOR and Met. Cyprian’s group in Greece covered.

Quote
This sounds like playing games with numbers.  The "validity" concept here appears to me to be more Latin than Orthodox.

Agreed, however much I like the Catholic Church. One can’t ‘sort of’ be in the Orthodox communion. One is or one isn’t.
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Offline Mexican

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2003, 08:03:53 PM »
The arguments against the New Julian Calendar are often related to the Fast of the Apostles. I am sure that the Old Calendar would be the best option for people in the seminaries, and the monasteries, because it truly affected their life there (in the case of that Fast, i mean).

But why would the New Calendar be "harmful" for all these people who have their normal lifes in their homes and the streets? Unfortunately, most non-monastic modern people hardly hold the Fast of the Apostles (or of any other fest) and practice it, even in countries that still follow the Traditional Calendar. The new calendar has very little effect in the people outside the monasteries. And the calendar is still the same, no saints were removed from it, pascha is still celebrated according to the traditional paschalion...


I am not like those who think that religion must be adapted to the modernist and secular world, but I do think that in the case of the New Calendar in Western Countries (and the vast majority of nations which follow it, in their secular life) give people the opportunity to be near the familly (here holliday finishes the day 3 Jan), so how can can a familly celebrate together Christmas on 7 Jan if everybody works or studies (and how can they reach the Church that day??).
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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2003, 08:28:18 PM »
The arguments against the New Julian Calendar are often related to the Fast of the Apostles. I am sure that the Old Calendar would be the best option for people in the seminaries, and the monasteries, because it truly affected their life there (in the case of that Fast, i mean).
<big snip>

You will not find myself disagreeing with you on this, Remie.  When I was still a Byzantine Catholic in communion with Rome, the Fast of the Apostles was totally ignored and unknown in my Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic parish.  I was first introduced to this fast and received a rude "wakeup call" to the fact that there was more to Byzantine Christianity when I attended a diaconate program at a Melkite Greek-Catholic seminary that actually observed this fast--and, in fact, observed it quite strictly (all the beer was removed from the deacon-candidates' refrigerator on the first day of the fast).   :o

The Fast of the Apostles, or Ss. Peter & Paul Fast, is, AFAIK, the last of the fasts or "lents" to be introduced into the Orthodox liturgical calendar, and it was introduced under monastic influence shortly after the schism of 1054.  It has no counterpart, therefore, in the West.  And it seems to be the fast that, in all honesty from my personal observations, is least observed by Orthodox Christians with any seriousness.  If the reason for adhering to the Julian Calendar is that in some few years there is no Apostles' Fast for those adhering to the Revised Julian Calendar, then I think the Old Calendarists are grasping at straws, i.e, they are making the Apostles' Fast their "strawman" for justifying the Old, or Julian, Calendar for all.

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2003, 10:03:33 PM »
I don't know how Eastern Orthodox calculate the date of the Apostles' fast, nor how long it is, etc., even when done exclusively on the Julian Calendar (I'd appreciate any input).  But our Church has used the Gregorian calendar exclusively for many years now, and we always have an Apostles' fast.  Perhaps the problem is not the Old or the New Calendar, but the hybrid version?

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2003, 10:23:18 PM »
I don't know how Eastern Orthodox calculate the date of the Apostles' fast, nor how long it is, etc., even when done exclusively on the Julian Calendar (I'd appreciate any input).  But our Church has used the Gregorian calendar exclusively for many years now, and we always have an Apostles' fast.  Perhaps the problem is not the Old or the New Calendar, but the hybrid version?  

Mor, it matters not on which calendar one is on: The beginning of the Apostles' Fast is calculated the same way.  It begins on the Monday after the Sunday of All Saints, which is the first Sunday after Pentecost, for *both* "Old" and "New" calendars because of the common Paschalion.  The last day of the fast is the day before the Feast of Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, June 29.  However, for the Old Calendarists June 29 is 13 days later on the Julian Calendar.  When Pascha comes very, very late, as it does in some years, therefore, the Apostles' Fast on the New Calendar may be reduced to only one or two days or disappears altogether in some years.  It never disappears on the Old Calendar.  This is one fast that has varying lengths, depending on how late Pascha occurs.   Confused?

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Offline sinjinsmythe

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2003, 11:15:43 PM »
I am confused  ???
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Hypo-Ortho

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2003, 11:39:15 PM »
I am confused  ???

It tends to get rather complicated.  The week following Pentecost is always fast-free.  If June 29, the Feast of Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, on the New Calendar occurs during the fast-free Pentecost week when there is a "late" Pascha, it effectively reduces or sometimes entirely eliminates the Apostles' Fast for New Calendarists in that year, but not for the Old Calendarists, for whom June 29 does not come until 13 days later according to the Julian Calendar calculation.  ;D

Hypo-Ortho
« Last Edit: January 02, 2003, 02:19:08 AM by Hypo-Ortho »

Offline The young fogey

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2003, 12:37:25 PM »
The hypostatic union is dogma. The Apostles’ Fast is discipline, which can and does change.
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Offline moronikos

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2003, 02:07:59 PM »
I believe Mor is right.  If we were on the Gregorian calendar instead of the Revised Julian (New Calendar), this wouldn't happen.  I wish we were totally on the Gregorian calendar--or everyone was on the pagan Julius Caesar's calendar.  It's really a bummer when my wife, kids, and every other relative celebrates Easter and we're still on the fast.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2003, 02:55:53 PM »
So your Apostles' fast can vary from days to weeks if you are on the Old Calendar?  And your fast can vary from nothing to weeks if you're on the Revised Julian Calendar?  Sheesh.  We keep something like thirteen days from 16 June to 29 June and leave it at that; for us, it doesn't depend on the Paschalion.  I wonder what would happen if the Revised Julian was taken away and replaced with the Gregorian calendar?  If the Orthodox celebrated "Western" Pascha, would there be cases in which there would be no Apostles' fast, or would there not be this problem?

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2003, 02:58:36 PM »
I believe Mor is right.  If we were on the Gregorian calendar instead of the Revised Julian (New Calendar), this wouldn't happen.  I wish we were totally on the Gregorian calendar--or everyone was on the pagan Julius Caesar's calendar.  It's really a bummer when my wife, kids, and every other relative celebrates Easter and we're still on the fast.

Speak with your priest.  Get his blessing to celebrate Western Easter with your wife and kids and "every other relative."  Then, fair is fair.  Invite them all to celebrate Pascha with you!   :)    (No one ever said being Orthodox is easy.)

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2003, 03:10:34 PM »
So your Apostles' fast can vary from days to weeks if you are on the Old Calendar?  And your fast can vary from nothing to weeks if you're on the Revised Julian Calendar?  Sheesh.  We keep something like thirteen days from 16 June to 29 June and leave it at that; for us, it doesn't depend on the Paschalion.  I wonder what would happen if the Revised Julian was taken away and replaced with the Gregorian calendar?  If the Orthodox celebrated "Western" Pascha, would there be cases in which there would be no Apostles' fast, or would there not be this problem?  

The Autonomous Orthodox Church of Finland, Mor, is bound to celebrate Holy Pascha "out of sync" with the rest of the Eastern Orthodox world by Finnish State law in order to receive official recognition as Finland's second "State Religion" (after Lutheranism), and thereby to be supported by the State from tax revenues.  And so, Finland stands alone in Orthodoxy (except for the tiny Mexican Exarchate of the Orthodox Church in America) in celebrating Western "Easter."  I'm assuming the Apostles' Fast always fits in somewhere when one is strictly either on the Papal or Julian Calendars.  The Revised Julian Calendar is problematic when it comes to the Apostles' Fast in *some* few years.  Should we adopt the Papal Gregorian Paschalion simply for that reason, inquirers want to know?

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Offline sinjinsmythe

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2003, 03:22:42 PM »
The Autonomous Orthodox Church of Finland, Mor, is bound to celebrate Holy Pascha "out of sync" with the rest of the Eastern Orthodox world by Finnish State law in order to receive official recognition as Finland's second "State Religion" (after Lutheranism), and thereby to be supported by the State from tax revenues.  And so, Finland stands alone in Orthodoxy (except for the tiny Mexican Exarchate of the Orthodox Church in America) in celebrating Western "Easter."  I'm assuming the Apostles' Fast always fits in somewhere when one is strictly either on the Papal or Julian Calendars.  The Revised Julian Calendar is problematic when it comes to the Apostles' Fast in *some* few years.  Should we adopt the Papal Gregorian Paschalion simply for that reason, inquirers want to know?

Hypo-Ortho  

So that is why the Finns celebrate the way they do..just so they can be part of the official state religion.  What happens if they chose to celebrate with the rest of the Orthodox world..would they be illegal then?  Are state religions only allowed to celebrate in Finland?
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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2003, 04:15:44 PM »
<snip>
So that is why the Finns celebrate the way they do..just so they can be part of the official state religion.  What happens if they chose to celebrate with the rest of the Orthodox world..would they be illegal then?  Are state religions only allowed to celebrate in Finland?

They wouldn't be illegal, but they also would then not be recognized officially by the Finnish government as Finland's second "State Religion."  And if not a "State Religion," they would be ineligible to receive tax revenues in support of the Finnish Orthodox Church.  I may be wrong, but I think it all goes down to the matter of official recognition and money in the long run.  As an Autonomous Orthodox Church under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the Finnish Orthodox Church has learned well on which side of the bread the butter is.

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Offline sinjinsmythe

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2003, 04:43:57 PM »

They wouldn't be illegal, but they also would then not be recognized officially by the Finnish government as Finland's second "State Religion."  And if not a "State Religion," they would be ineligible to receive tax revenues in support of the Finnish Orthodox Church.  I may be wrong, but I think it all goes down to the matter of official recognition and money in the long run.  As an Autonomous Orthodox Church under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the Finnish Orthodox Church has learned well on which side of the bread the butter is.

Hypo-Ortho

So in other words, money is more important to them than celebrating Pascha with the rest of the Orthodox world.   :-";"xx
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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2003, 05:23:43 PM »
So in other words, money is more important to them than celebrating Pascha with the rest of the Orthodox world.   :-

It may look that way, but I wouldn't judge too harshly.  There may be other factors affecting the Finnish Orthodox Church's decision to embrace the Western Paschalion.  Finns, like Slavs, can be very stingy when it comes to church offering baskets.  In Europe many countries, e.g., Germany, customarily support churches through taxes, *not* through voluntary donations as we are used to here in the States, and the church offering basket is foreign to them.

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Offline moronikos

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2003, 06:11:04 PM »

Speak with your priest.  Get his blessing to celebrate Western Easter with your wife and kids and "every other relative."  Then, fair is fair.  Invite them all to celebrate Pascha with you!   :)    (No one ever said being Orthodox is easy.)

Hypo-Ortho  

Fair?  What's that?  I don't live on the same planet as you do.  In my alternate universe, the twin sister of Dave Hunt (or Bob Jones, Jerry Falwell, etc...you take your choice) ain't going to celebrate another Easter with the whore of Babylon.
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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2003, 06:49:35 PM »
Fair?  What's that?  I don't live on the same planet as you do.  In my alternate universe, the twin sister of Dave Hunt (or Bob Jones, Jerry Falwell, etc...you take your choice) ain't going to celebrate another Easter with the whore of Babylon.

I understand what you're saying.  You would've had a much easier time if your relatives were RC or BC, but they aren't.  Inform your priest of your situation, get his blessing, and then do what you have to do to keep the peace.  I don't know why, but it seems Orthodoxy always comes up on the short end of the stick in family situations like this.   :(

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Offline Mexican

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2003, 08:00:45 PM »
mmm correct me if I am totally wrong my friends, but i don't think that the Exarchate of Mexico celebrates according to the Gregorian paschalion. I don't think this is permitted. I have to find information about this. In the Diocese of Constantinople in Mexico, Pascha was celebrated in May last year, and I receved some cards from the OCA group in May (5 may I remember).
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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2003, 08:19:38 PM »
mmm correct me if I am totally wrong my friends, but i don't think that the Exarchate of Mexico celebrates according to the Gregorian paschalion. I don't think this is permitted. I have to find information about this. In the Diocese of Constantinople in Mexico, Pascha was celebrated in May last year, and I receved some cards from the OCA group in May (5 may I remember).

Remie, the situation of the OCA's Mexican Exarchate vis-a-vis the celebration of Pascha on the Western Paschalion may have changed recently then, but I'm not sure.  When this former Old Catholic group was received into the OCA under the late Bishop JOSE of Mexico City, of blessed memory, however, they were received with the proviso that they be allowed to retain the Western Paschalion to which they were accustomed (as this was not contrary to the essence of the Orthodox Faith).  His Eminence, Archbishop DMITRI of Dallas and the South, who currently serves as the OCA's Exarch for Mexico and is known for his conservatism and his firm stance on Holy Tradition, would be the Hierarch to ask for a definitive answer.  But Anastasios (Dustin Hudson) may even have the answer from sources at St. Vladimir's Seminary.

Hypo-Ortho
« Last Edit: January 02, 2003, 08:54:50 PM by Hypo-Ortho »

Offline Mexican

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Re:My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2003, 03:13:50 AM »
I didn't know that the Exarchate of Mexico once had a Bishop located in Mexico (Bishop Jos+¬), unless he was their original Bishop, and that happened many years ago). Maybe the history I know of this Exarchate is not very accurate.

I knew that during the 1910's there was an genuine movement started by Catholic priests toward Orthodoxy in Mexico, but it had no results until the 30's, when the leadeers of the movement entered in contact with the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Greek Diocese in the USA (actually I think there was no Greek Bishop located in Mexico) and they were received into the Orthodox Church, some of them were able to establish missions among Mexican Americans in the USA with the aid of a Serbian priest (in Texas).

The establishment of a Communist regimme in Mexico since the 20's had disastrous results for the Orthodox Church (as well as many other religious groups) The government started to infiltrate the movement and as a result, most of the members of the Mexican Orthodox Church left and decided to found a Protestant Church supported by the government. Official communion of those who remained in the Church, was with Constantinople, if i'm not mistaken.
Mexican participation in the foundation of the Orthodox Church in our continent was very important, specially in the South of the USA, where the Mexican Orthodox priests headed by father elias Rudolph (the group that was originally assisted by Serbian priests) had a role in the construction of the Cathedral of St. Seraphim in Dallas.
When the open religious persecution stopped, two parishes started to work againin the Capital, but they were placed under the Patriarchate of Moscow (though I don't know if this was official or not). It was in the 1970's when the Exarchate had its definitive foundation with the reception of another group of former Roman priests, who left because they refused to follow the government-supported clergy, sold to the theology of the liberation. the Exarchate of mexico was finally founded.

If you can help me with some corrections please tell me.
El Señor es tu sombra a tu mano derecha." De día no te molestará el sol, ni de noche la luna. El Señor te guardará de todo mal; guardará tu alma;" guardará tus salidas y tus entradas desde ahora y por siempre. (Salmo 120)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: My stand on Old Calendarists in or not in union with New Calendarists
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2010, 03:43:19 AM »
Revival of the Great Calendar Debate split off and merged into this sticky on Faith Issues: Old vs. New Calendar?

If you wish to continue discussing/debating the calendar issue, please do so on THAT thread. This thread is locked to encourage our posters to post there, not here.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 03:02:47 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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