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Author Topic: What is dogma?  (Read 2082 times) Average Rating: 0
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fatman2021
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« on: January 09, 2009, 07:45:40 PM »

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Dogma - a decree or ordinance : Source - The New Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
            Decree      - An official  order, edict, or decision, as of a church, government, court, etc.
            Ordinance  - An established or prescribed practice or usage, esp. a religious rite.
            Source: The Webster's New World Dictionary

The following definitions are from the Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language. The dictionary entries of the Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language are based on the First Edition of The Random House Dictionary of the English Language.

decree:     1. an ordinance or edict promulgated by civil or other authority: to issue a decree.
               2. Law. a judicial decision or order.
               3. Theol. one of the eternal purposes of God, by which events are foreordained.
               4. to ordain or decide by decree.

ordinance: 1. an authoritative rule or law; a decree or command.
               2. a public injunction or regulation: a city ordinance against excessive horn blowing.
               4. Eccles. a. an establish rite or ceremony.
                             b. a sacrament.
                             c. the communion.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 07:51:52 PM by fatman2021 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2009, 07:49:06 PM »

So, what do you hope to accomplish by posting this, Fatman?  Is this something you really want to discuss?
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2009, 07:54:55 PM »

So, what do you hope to accomplish by posting this, Fatman?  Is this something you really want to discuss?

Grace and Peace PeterTheAleut,

I was fortunate to be speaking with my Priest last night about dogma and that it was grown out of the decline of Keurgima (sp?).

Do you share this view?
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2009, 07:59:01 PM »

Dogma is the unshaken belief that something is true, regardless of proof. The term dogma is frequently misused as interchangeable with doctrine. Doctrine is, rather, the interpretation of dogma.

Most frequently, one seems the term dogma applied to religion. In plural, one uses the form dogmata or dogmas. Dogma can be found in virtually all religions. Examples in Christianity of dogma include, belief in God, and belief that Jesus’ conception was immaculate(a Roman Catholic Heresy).

Dogmas in religions like Hinduism express a basic belief in the concept of karma and of reincarnation. A person who does not believe in reincarnation could not shake the faith of someone who believes in reincarnation. In essence dogma derives from faith.

Thus the first dogma, in regards to religion, is the belief in some sort of divine being or beings. Though most religions have diverged from these primal religions, they hold the kernel of truth in the sense that humans want to find the divine, and believe in a divine presence. The belief in a divine presence or intelligence is the foundation of dogma in most religions.

Certain other types of faith are also called dogma. For example, believing in Marxian philosophy, and truly that socialism is the best possible construction for society is dogma. This type of dogma assumes certain factors, such as “the worker is oppressed,” and “religion is an opiate of the people.” How dogma is applied to a society would become political doctrine, or an interpretation of Marxian dogma.

Virtually all schools of philosophy have a set of unproven truths to which they cling. In extreme examples, as per deconstructionist thought, the central dogma is that most text contains multiple contradictions and meanings. Such proofs that are offered, the doctrine of deconstruction, are actually arguments and not proofs.

Dogma also applies to ideas like free education for all. There is an underlying belief structure, that it is good for all children to have free education. This is not based on statistics, but on faith that access to education is a basic right and is valuable to all.

Mostly, however, dogma applies to core truths that are based on faith. People in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic religions don’t believe God to exist, they know he exists.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-dogma.htm
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 08:30:52 PM by fatman2021 » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2009, 08:01:26 PM »

Dogma is the unshaken belief that something is true, regardless of proof.
No. That's stupidity.
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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2009, 08:05:39 PM »

Dogma is the unshaken belief that something is true, regardless of proof....

Mostly, however, dogma applies to core truths that are based on faith. People in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic religions don’t believe God to exist, they know he exists.


So, you're saying that believers in Native American religion, or Yoruba religion, don't know that God exists?
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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2009, 08:08:12 PM »

More along the lines of that they do not know who God is...
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 08:08:37 PM by fatman2021 » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2009, 04:19:22 PM »

isn't this also in the tradition of the EO and OO Church? how come this is a heresy?

and belief that Jesus’ conception was immaculate(a Roman Catholic Heresy).
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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2009, 04:25:00 PM »

How about the Dogma that God exist, is that stupidity?

Dogma is the unshaken belief that something is true, regardless of proof.
No. That's stupidity.
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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2009, 05:18:09 PM »

How about the Dogma that God exist, is that stupidity?

Dogma is the unshaken belief that something is true, regardless of proof.
No. That's stupidity.

Yes
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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2009, 05:43:24 PM »

I thought that a Dogma was a Sacredly Revealed Truth?
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2009, 05:02:37 AM »

so you believe when people believed a Dogma saying that God exist.. Its stupidity...

well..thank you for your opinion.

How about the Dogma that God exist, is that stupidity?

Dogma is the unshaken belief that something is true, regardless of proof.
No. That's stupidity.

Yes
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2009, 05:48:23 AM »

so you believe when people believed a Dogma saying that God exist.. Its stupidity...

well..thank you for your opinion.

How about the Dogma that God exist, is that stupidity?

Dogma is the unshaken belief that something is true, regardless of proof.
No. That's stupidity.

Yes

Thats ok anytime. But to clarify a belief in God as dogma, with fatman2021 definition of dogma is stupidity thats all Cheesy
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2009, 07:02:54 AM »

so you believe when people believed a Dogma saying that God exist.. Its stupidity...

well..thank you for your opinion.

How about the Dogma that God exist, is that stupidity?

Dogma is the unshaken belief that something is true, regardless of proof.
No. That's stupidity.

Yes

Marlo, it's clear you don't understand the problem, so let me explain it to you.
fatman makes the claim that "Dogma is the unshaken belief that something is true, regardless of proof." This means that one should have an "unshaken belief in something even when it is proven that this is false". If someone holds a dogma which is proven to be false, they are an heretic.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 07:03:19 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2009, 09:19:52 AM »

My two cents: I thought dogma in the language of the Church is a statement that is based on the Divine Revelation (that is, Scripture as well as the oral Tradition of the Church) and accepted by the whole Church as truth. For example, the hypostatic union of the two natures of Christ is a dogma. It is based on Scripture, it has been carried by the oral Tradition, and it has been the subject of a thorough investigation by the Church, and the Church collectively decided that it is true. So it is a dogma. On the other hand, if an individual bishop, priest, or layman says, for example, that the length of the beard of a cleric must be so and so - that's an opinion, not a dogma.

"Immaculate conception of Christ" - Fatman, what do you mean when you say it's a Vatican heresy? The miraculous "seedless" conception of man Jesus Christ at the moment of Annunciation is certainly a dogma of the Orthodox Church. Or am I wrong?
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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2009, 09:43:23 AM »

My two cents: I thought dogma in the language of the Church is a statement that is based on the Divine Revelation (that is, Scripture as well as the oral Tradition of the Church) and accepted by the whole Church as truth. For example, the hypostatic union of the two natures of Christ is a dogma. It is based on Scripture, it has been carried by the oral Tradition, and it has been the subject of a thorough investigation by the Church, and the Church collectively decided that it is true. So it is a dogma. On the other hand, if an individual bishop, priest, or layman says, for example, that the length of the beard of a cleric must be so and so - that's an opinion, not a dogma.

"Immaculate conception of Christ" - Fatman, what do you mean when you say it's a Vatican heresy? The miraculous "seedless" conception of man Jesus Christ at the moment of Annunciation is certainly a dogma of the Orthodox Church. Or am I wrong?

Grace and Peace Heorhij,

I believe Fatman was speaking of the Immaculate Conception [of the BVM] and mistakenly posted [of Christ].

Fatman,

Personally, I struggle with the Roman Dogma of the Immaculate Conception of the BVM (Blessed Virgin Mary). I've spoken about it a few times on this forum to no ultimate conclusion. Simply calling me and other Roman Catholics 'heretics' really doesn't provide us any help toward a path of orthodoxy. Perhaps you are just taking jabs at the Western Church for some past injury it has caused to you or you are simply attempting to triumph over your own orthodoxy but without a constructive discussion on the matter claiming a dogma heresy doesn't untie those bound in it's belief. It only insults them and drives them away from any a pursuit of the knowledge that would free them from such heresy.

If you fear that such heresy might enter Holy Orthodoxy and thus feel motivated to resist such a teaching for it protection I sympathize with you and your cause but I honestly don't feel that such alert is merited.
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« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2009, 01:12:47 PM »

I believe Fatman was speaking of the Immaculate Conception [of the BVM] and mistakenly posted [of Christ].

Ah, but then of course...
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2009, 03:47:48 AM »

Good health to everyone!

This is a good topic to clarify. The Apostle’s doctrine is dogma. Dogmas from good Christians are, as far as they go, authoritative. The meaning of doctrine is simply any given teaching from individuals, so doctrine is slightly different, but is along similar lines as dogma. All the good historic dogmas were passed onward from ancient councils and should be understood as undeniable. Many people believe that the age of developing dogma from valid a council is over. Any doctrine that deviates from the valid historic established dogmas are evil. Everything is in the details.

More along the lines of that they do not know who God is...

I agree that pagans and heretics do not know who God actually is. People perish do to lack of knowledge. Ignorance is no excuse, for what can be known about God can be clearly seen, but they have just willfully darkened their minds.

I believe Fatman was speaking of the Immaculate Conception [of the BVM] and mistakenly posted [of Christ].

Actually, the words are from a reference given towards the bottom of his post, so the mistake is not completely on him. References often have mistakes, this reference contains one. It takes a sharp eye to catch that mistake, good work.

The Latin dogma of the Immaculate Conception of the BVM is not entirely aligned with the understandings of the ancient Eastern Orthodox Church, but many early EO saints do offer dogmatic (read authoritative) teachings which are inline with some points of this Latin dogma. Here is a link which I do not entirely agree with, but some of the references are Orthodox and worthwhile considering. Like the one from St. Ephraim the Syrian.

http://www.celticorthodoxchurch.com/immaculate.html

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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2009, 04:00:17 AM »

Ummm, John, the "Celtic Orthodox Church" is (a) a vagante group, and (b) not Orthodox. Hardly an authoritative source.
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2009, 04:15:23 AM »

Ummm, John, the "Celtic Orthodox Church" is (a) a vagante group, and (b) not Orthodox. Hardly an authoritative source.

Please look a little closer at exactly what I said. I did not say that the Celtic Orthodox Church was Orthodox or authoritative, but that St. Epraim the Syrian is.

Anyone guided by the Holy Spirit, as with saints such as Ephraim, offers doctrine worthy of our consideration. St. Ephraim the Syrian is truly a man of a broken heart. We would all do well to follow his good examples.

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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2009, 04:21:39 AM »

The fact remains, John, that the notion of the immaculate conception of the Virgin is not, and will not be, a dogma of the Orthodox Church. End of story.
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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2009, 04:42:08 PM »

Ummm, John, the "Celtic Orthodox Church" is (a) a vagante group, and (b) not Orthodox. Hardly an authoritative source.

Please look a little closer at exactly what I said. I did not say that the Celtic Orthodox Church was Orthodox or authoritative, but that St. Epraim the Syrian is.
But even the words of a godly man can can be twisted by the unscrupulous to fit an ungodly agenda.
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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2009, 09:30:38 PM »

But even the words of a godly man can can be twisted by the unscrupulous to fit an ungodly agenda.

Yup. Exactly.
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« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2009, 10:28:30 AM »

Brother ozgeorge

Thank you for trying to clear the question to me, however, i do go with fatman on this, i would like to clear out that a dogma is relative to the person believing..and its not always a universal belief:

Example : The dogma of the immaculate conception, is the catholic church dogma, and not the EO dogma, for the EO that is heresy, for RC its not.

The Dogma of the incarnation of Christ, is a dogma of the EO, RC and OO church.. but not of all protestant churches, some protestant would say its stupid but for us its not.

that's why it is the unshaken belief, which is similar to faith.




so you believe when people believed a Dogma saying that God exist.. Its stupidity...

well..thank you for your opinion.

How about the Dogma that God exist, is that stupidity?

Dogma is the unshaken belief that something is true, regardless of proof.
No. That's stupidity.

Yes

Marlo, it's clear you don't understand the problem, so let me explain it to you.
fatman makes the claim that "Dogma is the unshaken belief that something is true, regardless of proof." This means that one should have an "unshaken belief in something even when it is proven that this is false". If someone holds a dogma which is proven to be false, they are an heretic.
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