Author Topic: David Newman and the Pope  (Read 15560 times)

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #90 on: March 04, 2009, 06:15:03 PM »
I think our founder and Administrator explains this best:


We are just trying to meet our responsibility of fairness and remember we will all face the ultimate judge, Christ himself. We really want to make sure that our site is not responsible for advertising mistruth whenever possible. No one on our moderation team is assuming anything you have said is not true. It is just confusing to try and figure out all the details and we are trying to be cautious. This is how Orthodox people are supposed to take all things, with a discerning spirit. Thank you for your understanding. We value your input on this site.

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In your case, he's figuring you've used sources, so he's asking for the references to keep the discussion moving (i.e. so people don't just assume you've made things up), and to keep everyone's character unsoiled (by accusations or whatnot).

Dear Cleveland,

if you examine each item you will find the source is posted.   But it is not a clickable source.  I am not sure but it seems to be a requirement that references to the Acts of a Council or to books are not acceptable,.  It must be a clickable source?  I.e., something on the Internet?  If that is the Forum rule I shall of course abide by it but it does cut out a lot of material out.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #91 on: March 04, 2009, 06:20:10 PM »

IRISH,

if you want to debate Pope Honorius perhaps you can open a new thread on this subject alone. If you do this, let me know. Make your case agaisnt him and I'll give my response.

Thanks but after all the years on CAF I am honoriused out. ;D

But why start a new thread?   The title is ".... and the Pope" and you yourself have introduced the names of multiple popes.

Offline Anastasios

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #92 on: March 04, 2009, 06:20:25 PM »

Fr Ambrose,

No it's fine, if you are typing something out of a book then the book citation is fine.

Fr Chris just assumed you were copy pasting from another website.

Fr Anastasios
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 06:21:12 PM by Fr. Anastasios »
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Offline Quinault

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #93 on: March 04, 2009, 06:20:41 PM »
Christian Classics Ethereal Library

http://www.ccel.org/

Would this help? Then next time you can copy and paste rather than type it all out Fr. Ambrose.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 06:27:27 PM by Quinault »

Offline Quinault

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #94 on: March 04, 2009, 06:25:29 PM »
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 06:26:15 PM by Quinault »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #95 on: March 04, 2009, 06:26:29 PM »

Fr Ambrose,

No it's fine, if you are typing something out of a book then the book citation is fine.

Fr Chris just assumed you were copy pasting from another website.

Fr Anastasios


Father, I wrote the Honorius material quite a few years ago on CAF.  It is all accurate.  It was a final (and kind of definitive) compilation from several of my posts on CAF with material taken from all over the place.  Apart from the internal references for the quotes which would involve reading the Acts of the Council, I don't temember which bits were taken from sites such as CCEL and other bits from books on the shelves. 

Offline Anastasios

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #96 on: March 04, 2009, 06:30:52 PM »
Dear Fr Ambrose,

I am sure it is accurate. Just wanted to know where it came from to help other posters who need to use the citation. Quinault has located the citation. Thanks Quinault!

Fr Anastasios
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 06:31:03 PM by Fr. Anastasios »
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Offline antiderivative

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #97 on: March 04, 2009, 06:38:13 PM »
I'm curious to know what these primary sources David Newman has. Primary Sources of 1000 year old quotes that no one else has access to is rather impressive.
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Offline John of the North

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #98 on: March 04, 2009, 06:38:42 PM »
Folks, this is not the first time I've read on an Internet forum a supposedly Orthodox poster claim that he has read a 'secret, not yet published' monograph proving these papal claims. In fact, this instance is exactly what I've seen before. It strains credulity to assert with today's available technology (almost free Internet publishing avenues) and very cheap personal publishing options (such as Lulu Press) that any worthy work cannot be disseminated.
My finely training milarkey detector (my probiscus) has just set off an alarm.

Oh get over it! I have given the PRIMARY SOURCES supporting my quotes. Dig them up and disprove them if you think you can.

I'm totally using that line on my next history paper!
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #99 on: March 04, 2009, 06:45:36 PM »
David,

Please provide these sources and where they can be found. While you are at it, please PM me and let me know if you have already signed up for this forum under another name as I requested earlier today.

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« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 06:46:27 PM by Fr. Anastasios »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #100 on: March 04, 2009, 06:55:03 PM »

These aren't secret manuscripts. They have been known to the Church for 2,000 years. They might seem secret to you because you don't deal with primary sources. And you don't deal on a scholarly level.

Known to the Church for 2,000 years, eh?  Interesting, as since the Church was born at Pentacost, she knew these "sources" before her birth.  Before the NT in fact.

What are these "sources?"  "The Lost Years of Jesus?"  "The DaVinci Code?" "Jesus in Kashmir?"

I'm sorry, I have to disagree Quinault: this is all too amuzing to be insulting.
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Offline Quinault

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #101 on: March 04, 2009, 07:05:24 PM »
I'm sorry, I have to disagree Quinault: this is all too amuzing to be insulting.

I think my lack of sleep is starting to get to me.  :D

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #102 on: March 04, 2009, 07:10:23 PM »
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xiii.xiii.html#xiii.xiii-Page_351

Excursus on the Condemnation of Pope Honorius.


Thank you, Quinault.  We can see that the CCEL site provides no more references that those which are included in the post I sent earlier.   

These are readily available book material, not like David's.  ;)  But Internet people don't like references to books.  Maybe if someone has some time they could search out each reference on an Internet site and give us some clickable references.  I'd be more than happy to add them into the post - I am sure the post will be useful again in the future. Honorius keeps popping up.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 07:21:02 PM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Anastasios

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #103 on: March 04, 2009, 08:14:46 PM »
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xiii.xiii.html#xiii.xiii-Page_351

Excursus on the Condemnation of Pope Honorius.


Thank you, Quinault.  We can see that the CCEL site provides no more references that those which are included in the post I sent earlier.   


I'm confused--Fr Chris was asking for a link to the source. Why then would you say the CCEL site provides no more references than what was in your post? As it was assumed you were quoting from the CCEL site, what we wanted was a link to the original, which Quinault provided kindly.

When you said you got it out of a book and not from the CCEL site, it was stated that the book citation was fine.  Again, what we want is to enable other users to interface with the primary sources when we reference them in posts, not cause posters undue trouble

Regards,
Fr Anastasios
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 08:23:39 PM by Fr. Anastasios »
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #104 on: March 04, 2009, 09:06:34 PM »
Quote
But Internet people don't like references to books.

Some of us "internet people" prefer both, actually. It's nice to have a hard copy of something that you can hold in your hand and verify that way. On the other hand, many of us live in an area where we do not have access to large academic/religious libraries, and thus if everything was simply out of books, we'd often have no way of checking on what a person was saying.

Offline Quinault

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #105 on: March 05, 2009, 12:14:29 AM »
I think Fr. Ambrose was saying that he didn't know if what he culled from CAF on Honorius and posted was ccel and/or books or just ccel earlier. But looking now at ccel there isn't any info in his posts that were not available on the link I provided.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 12:14:56 AM by Quinault »

Offline Fr. George

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #106 on: March 05, 2009, 12:36:59 AM »
Dear Cleveland,

if you examine each item you will find the source is posted.   But it is not a clickable source.  I am not sure but it seems to be a requirement that references to the Acts of a Council or to books are not acceptable,.  It must be a clickable source?  I.e., something on the Internet?  If that is the Forum rule I shall of course abide by it but it does cut out a lot of material out.

No, it does not have to be a "clickable" source - book sources are sufficient.  I guess I thought I understood what was going on, but I must not have read carefully enough, leaving me a bit confused, but not with enough energy to go back over the posts in question.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #107 on: March 05, 2009, 01:25:16 AM »

I'm confused--Fr Chris was asking for a link to the source. Why then would you say the CCEL site provides no more references than what was in your post? As it was assumed you were quoting from the CCEL site, what we wanted was a link to the original, which Quinault provided kindly.

When you

I think the confusion reflects our generation gap,  I am happy with sources from printed material.  The younger generation are impatient of that and want instant access to clickable Internet sources.

Here are the sources given in my post and (most of them) by CCEL.

1.  The Acts of the 13th Session of the 6th Ecumenical Council.

2. Honorius's two letters in favour of monothelitism.
   Ordered burnt by the 13th Session of the 6th Ecumenical Council.

3. The Anathema from 17th session of the 6th Ecumenical Council.
 
4. The Decree of Faith  of the 17th Session of the 6th Ecumenical Council. 

5. The report of the 6th Council to the Emperor.

6. The letter of the 6th Ecumenical Council to Pope Agatho.

7. The Imperial Decree and the Imperial Anathemas on the monothelite heretics.

8. Pope Leo II's confirmation of the decrees and Anathemas of the Council.  This one may not be easy to locate.

9. Honorius' anathematization supported by the Trullan (Quinisext) Canons.

10. The Seventh Ecumenical Council's confirmation of the Anathemas.

11. The Roman copy of the Acts, mentioned in Anastasius's life of Leo II (Vita Leonis II.)

12. The Papal Oath in the Liber Diurnus.

13. The lesson for the feast of St. Leo II in the Roman Breviary .

14. The Catholic Encyclopedia article on Honorius.

The references are all there, but just not clickable references.   People should start using libraries again.   :)


« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 01:27:41 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #108 on: March 05, 2009, 01:34:32 AM »
I think Fr. Ambrose was saying that he didn't know if what he culled from CAF on Honorius and posted was ccel and/or books or just ccel earlier. But looking now at ccel there isn't any info in his posts that were not available on the link I provided.

Dear Quinault,

Here is my same post on CAF - Message No. 3
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=138703

It is 2 years ago.  It was posted several times on CAF whenever Honorius came up so it is even older than 2 years really.

With this space of time I must confess that I simply do not remember where it is from - whether it is from the CCEL site or from the bookshelves.

_______________

PS:  The really interesting matter is not these workaday references to Honorius but the esoteric material which David is giving us.  Fascianting stuff and I wish he would reveal more of the sources and their reliability.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 01:37:11 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline LBK

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #109 on: March 05, 2009, 01:41:13 AM »
Quote
The really interesting matter is not these workaday references to Honorius but the esoteric material which David is giving us.  Fascianting stuff and I wish he would reveal more of the sources and their reliability.

With respect, Father, I wouldn't hold my breath on that.  ::) An Orthodox who's promoting papal supremacy? It just don't add up.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #110 on: March 05, 2009, 01:47:08 AM »
Quote
The younger generation are impatient of that and want instant access to clickable Internet sources.

Not really.

Offline Quinault

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #111 on: March 05, 2009, 01:55:13 AM »
Inpatient?
*wait I need to go stir the powdered instant tea into the water I just microwaved*

I am a very patient person, I had to stir that tea for 10 whole seconds to get it to dissolve properly! :laugh:
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 01:56:18 AM by Quinault »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #112 on: March 05, 2009, 02:40:08 AM »
I think the confusion reflects our generation gap,
Quite possibly, but I think for different reasons than you think.

I am happy with sources from printed material. 
And so are the younger generation.

The younger generation are impatient of that and want instant access to clickable Internet sources.
That's not the case. The younger generation are not impatient, they just have a more genuine love of what is genuine and true than we do. The fact is you actually provided no references whatsoever for what you said, which gave the appearance that you had researched the information yourself, whereas in fact, you were quoting directly from another author (which is plagiarism).

« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 02:40:37 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #113 on: March 05, 2009, 02:46:12 AM »
I think the confusion reflects our generation gap,
Quite possibly, but I think for different reasons than you think.

I am happy with sources from printed material. 
And so are the younger generation.

The younger generation are impatient of that and want instant access to clickable Internet sources.
That's not the case. The younger generation are not impatient, they just have a more genuine love of what is genuine and true than we do. The fact is you actually provided no references whatsoever for what you said, which gave the appearance that you had researched the information yourself, whereas in fact, you were quoting directly from another author (which is plagiarism).



See my message no. 108.  I took the message off CAF and had no idea from where I found the source 2 and more years ago  Plagiarism?  Perhaps so - one of those "unintentional" sins of which only the Orthodox can be guilty.    :)

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #114 on: March 05, 2009, 02:51:15 AM »
I think the confusion reflects our generation gap,
Quite possibly, but I think for different reasons than you think.

I am happy with sources from printed material. 
And so are the younger generation.

The younger generation are impatient of that and want instant access to clickable Internet sources.
That's not the case. The younger generation are not impatient, they just have a more genuine love of what is genuine and true than we do. The fact is you actually provided no references whatsoever for what you said, which gave the appearance that you had researched the information yourself, whereas in fact, you were quoting directly from another author (which is plagiarism).



See my message no. 108.  I took the message off CAF and had no idea from where I found the source 2 and more years ago  Plagiarism?  Perhaps so - one of those "unintentional" sins of which only the Orthodox can be guilty.    :)
I did see message 108 which simply states that the same thing was posted two years ago on CAF with no references for its source. It is nothing to do with "sin", it is about proper debate and academic discourse.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #115 on: March 05, 2009, 06:22:38 AM »
I think the confusion reflects our generation gap,
Quite possibly, but I think for different reasons than you think.

I am happy with sources from printed material. 
And so are the younger generation.

The younger generation are impatient of that and want instant access to clickable Internet sources.
That's not the case. The younger generation are not impatient, they just have a more genuine love of what is genuine and true than we do. The fact is you actually provided no references whatsoever for what you said, which gave the appearance that you had researched the information yourself, whereas in fact, you were quoting directly from another author (which is plagiarism)


See my message no. 108.  I took the message off CAF and had no idea from where I found the source 2 and more years ago  Plagiarism?  Perhaps so - one of those "unintentional" sins of which only the Orthodox can be guilty.    :)
I did see message 108 which simply states that the same thing was posted two years ago on CAF with no references for its source. It is nothing to do with "sin", it is about proper debate and academic discourse.

I would classify plagiarism as a sin, and I am guilty of it, it seems, although quite unintentionally.  You were right to so accuse me.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #116 on: March 05, 2009, 10:01:19 AM »

I'm confused--Fr Chris was asking for a link to the source. Why then would you say the CCEL site provides no more references than what was in your post? As it was assumed you were quoting from the CCEL site, what we wanted was a link to the original, which Quinault provided kindly.

When you

I think the confusion reflects our generation gap,  I am happy with sources from printed material.  The younger generation are impatient of that and want instant access to clickable Internet sources.

Here are the sources given in my post and (most of them) by CCEL.

1.  The Acts of the 13th Session of the 6th Ecumenical Council.

2. Honorius's two letters in favour of monothelitism.
   Ordered burnt by the 13th Session of the 6th Ecumenical Council.

3. The Anathema from 17th session of the 6th Ecumenical Council.
 
4. The Decree of Faith  of the 17th Session of the 6th Ecumenical Council. 

5. The report of the 6th Council to the Emperor.

6. The letter of the 6th Ecumenical Council to Pope Agatho.

7. The Imperial Decree and the Imperial Anathemas on the monothelite heretics.

8. Pope Leo II's confirmation of the decrees and Anathemas of the Council.  This one may not be easy to locate.

9. Honorius' anathematization supported by the Trullan (Quinisext) Canons.

10. The Seventh Ecumenical Council's confirmation of the Anathemas.

11. The Roman copy of the Acts, mentioned in Anastasius's life of Leo II (Vita Leonis II.)

12. The Papal Oath in the Liber Diurnus.

13. The lesson for the feast of St. Leo II in the Roman Breviary .

14. The Catholic Encyclopedia article on Honorius.

The references are all there, but just not clickable references.   People should start using libraries again.   :)

Ahh.  I see.  So Father Chris'  request was essentially "where did you find the transcripts of the sessions of the council and the letters etc."  For example, some get theirs from the Post Nicene Fathers Series; some get theirs from texts in Greek (like the Syntagma or the Pedalion).  Since the acts of the 6th Council (as an example) haven't been published on their own, he's seeking info as to where you found them - I suppose because the translation makes a difference, as does the source.
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Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline FrChris

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #117 on: March 05, 2009, 10:14:22 AM »
Quote
Since the acts of the 6th Council (as an example) haven't been published on their own, he's seeking info as to where you found them - I suppose because the translation makes a difference, as does the source.

I want to stress why I first asked for the source. It is not because the information is new or allegedly controversial...clearly it is not since it is part of the Nicene and Post Nicene fathers Series, widely available for the past 50 years or so.

The reason behind my request is that often people come to this site to conduct research. Maybe it is for their own edification, maybe for theology term paper, whatever....the big thing is that if the source is listed it can help others in their spiritual growth and expansion of knowledge.

If the source is listed, then the interested person can review the source and maybe find other information of value. On the other hand, the statement "I found it somewhere and have been using it elsewhere, and since I cannot find it on the Internet I will not provide the source" or "I have information that completely re-writes history and will keep this information privy only to me" helps no one.

And if we are not helping others to learn about Truth....then why are we here?
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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #118 on: March 05, 2009, 10:20:06 AM »
Thanks, Fr.  Better to hear it directly from your mouth, than my imperfect (and wrong) interpretations.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #119 on: March 05, 2009, 10:24:29 AM »
Cleveland, there was no wrong interpretation on your part...just a lack of good communication on my part.  :P

You brought up some great points that I had not thought of, which really underscores why we need to be citing these sources....being able to look at the source material can cause a synergistic effect of excellent ideas coming from the same source after others look at the same information but from different viewpoints.
"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #120 on: March 05, 2009, 07:12:19 PM »
The reason behind my request is that often people come to this site to conduct research. Maybe it is for their own edification, maybe for theology term paper, whatever....the big thing is that if the source is listed it can help others in their spiritual growth and expansion of knowledge.

Father Chris,

When people are conducting research they want the PRIMARY souces, all of which were included in my message.  No student writing a theology paper should give internet links as his sources.  He should provide references to printed sources.

Clickable sources on the Internet are ephemeral and may be here today and gone tomorrow.

PRIMARY soucrces are books.  Bibliographies are what are needed.   :)

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #121 on: March 05, 2009, 07:18:52 PM »
Thanks, Fr.  Better to hear it directly from your mouth, than my imperfect (and wrong) interpretations.

I really need some guidance as to my earlier question.

Although references to primary sources were provided in my message it seems that this is not sufficient for the Forum's rules about prioviding sources.

Must sources be clickable?   Are bibilograohical references which are not on the Net insufficient?

Help! I am really confused.  I can see I have done something wrong - the many messages it has occasioned is proof of that.  But I still have no clarity as to what is required for references.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #122 on: March 05, 2009, 08:06:51 PM »
Father, one can cite an Internet site these days.  My apologies if you were aware of the website and/or citing Internet content.   :)


Offline David Newman

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #123 on: March 05, 2009, 10:59:43 PM »
David,

Please provide these sources and where they can be found. While you are at it, please PM me and let me know if you have already signed up for this forum under another name as I requested earlier today.

Fr Anastasios
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I use primary source material. You have to visit places like Harvard and other places to get access to them. A friend of mind has it all in his yet to be published book. I am one of only a handful in the world who have his book in manuscript form. Those who deal on a scholalrly level are familiar with my sources. And as I said earlier, no I don't have another account. I might have opened one long ago. I've been around.

This thread was supposed to be on the pope being the head of the Church. No one has refuted the sources I gave proving he was viewed as the head, and there are many more, believe me.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 11:00:12 PM by David Newman »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #124 on: March 05, 2009, 11:03:56 PM »
No one has refuted the sources I gave proving he was viewed as the head, and there are many more, believe me.
That's because you refuse to give the sources.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #125 on: March 05, 2009, 11:07:51 PM »
David,

Please provide these sources and where they can be found. While you are at it, please PM me and let me know if you have already signed up for this forum under another name as I requested earlier today.

Fr Anastasios
Administrator


I use primary source material. You have to visit places like Harvard and other places to get access to them. A friend of mind has it all in his yet to be published book. I am one of only a handful in the world who have his book in manuscript form. Those who deal on a scholalrly level are familiar with my sources. And as I said earlier, no I don't have another account. I might have opened one long ago. I've been around.

This thread was supposed to be on the pope being the head of the Church. No one has refuted the sources I gave proving he was viewed as the head, and there are many more, believe me.

Are you the same poster as this:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2558
Fr Anastasios

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Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism and may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #126 on: March 05, 2009, 11:13:59 PM »
David,

Please provide these sources and where they can be found. While you are at it, please PM me and let me know if you have already signed up for this forum under another name as I requested earlier today.

Fr Anastasios
Administrator


I use primary source material. You have to visit places like Harvard and other places to get access to them.


Really?  At the University of Chicago of MA?

When I used to work at the University of Chicago librairies while getting my PhD in Early Islamic History (I studied late Antiquity and European Civ. too), I often was in the Rare Book collection.  Give me the manuscript/bibliographical info.  I'll find it.

Quote
A friend of mind has it all in his yet to be published book. I am one of only a handful in the world who have his book in manuscript form. Those who deal on a scholalrly level are familiar with my sources.

No, we're not.


Quote
And as I said earlier, no I don't have another account. I might have opened one long ago. I've been around.

CAF?  I'm sure you have.

Quote
This thread was supposed to be on the pope being the head of the Church. No one has refuted the sources I gave proving he was viewed as the head, and there are many more, believe me.

OzGeorge is spot on.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #127 on: March 05, 2009, 11:19:25 PM »
David,

Please provide these sources and where they can be found. While you are at it, please PM me and let me know if you have already signed up for this forum under another name as I requested earlier today.

Fr Anastasios
Administrator





http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15956.msg227807.html#msg227807

I use primary source material. You have to visit places like Harvard and other places to get access to them. A friend of mind has it all in his yet to be published book. I am one of only a handful in the world who have his book in manuscript form. Those who deal on a scholalrly level are familiar with my sources. And as I said earlier, no I don't have another account. I might have opened one long ago. I've been around.

This thread was supposed to be on the pope being the head of the Church. No one has refuted the sources I gave proving he was viewed as the head, and there are many more, believe me.

Are you the same poster as this:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2558
Fr Anastasios



Given his respect for "places like Harvard and other places," it can't be our old friend:

Quote
Euthymios' Trashy way of praying for people
« on: May 13, 2008, 04:35:35 AM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Heorhij on May 12, 2008, 06:32:41 PM
Humbly asking for your prayers... my daughter is taking a pretty difficult final exam in the German language at Harvard. 


It is obvious your prayer request was not intended for prayer, but to boast. God would not answer a selfish and sinful prayer like that. He is more concerned with starving children in Africa. And Harvard is liberal. Nothing to be proud of. My uncle went to Harvard Law school. But it was not as liberal then as it is now. [Emphasis added]
Honestly, who attacks someone's request in the Prayer forum?  If you don't think the prayer is genuine, then pray to the Lord for enlightenment - both for the subject of the prayer, and the person who made the request.  We do not accept any sort of shenanigans in the prayer forum, however, and what you've said and done (twice!) is unacceptable.  If you feel that this warning is in error, please send a private message to FrChris (the Forum Administrator).

- Cleveland, Global Moderator
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 11:21:25 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #128 on: March 05, 2009, 11:24:04 PM »
You have to visit places like Harvard and other places to get access to them.
I don't know much about Universities in the US, but one of our posters made the claim that Havard is "liberal" and that anyone who studies there will "lose their faith or end up a mediocre Christian". Would you agree with this? Here is what they said:

It is obvious your prayer request was not intended for prayer, but to boast. God would not answer a selfish and sinful prayer like that. He is more concerned with starving children in Africa. And Harvard is liberal. Nothing to be proud of. My uncle went to Harvard Law school. But it was not as liberal then as it is now.

I submit that when she comes out of that school, she will have either lost faith, or will end-up a very mediocre Christian.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #129 on: March 05, 2009, 11:27:10 PM »
David?
Where did you go?
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline username!

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #130 on: March 05, 2009, 11:30:37 PM »
To get solid references perhaps?  You can give us references even though we may not go to Harvard we can still get books through inter-library loan.

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #131 on: March 06, 2009, 12:02:58 AM »
David/Euthymios, this is an official request, by myself, the moderator of this section, echoing that previously put forward by a forum administrator.  Please provide proper citations!  For example:  [Thiel, 955] means nothing to us.  Now, if you were to say it was from Thiel's Epistolae Romanorum Pontificum Genuinae, Epistola 132,... that is something we can work with.  Expanding on certain acronymns would be helpful as well.  You don't have to follow the Chicago Manual style or anything, but something more substantial is needed.

Thank you.

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« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 12:25:18 AM by Nebelpfade »
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #132 on: March 06, 2009, 12:09:25 AM »
The reason behind my request is that often people come to this site to conduct research. Maybe it is for their own edification, maybe for theology term paper, whatever....the big thing is that if the source is listed it can help others in their spiritual growth and expansion of knowledge.

Father Chris,

When people are conducting research they want the PRIMARY souces, all of which were included in my message.  No student writing a theology paper should give internet links as his sources.  He should provide references to printed sources.

Clickable sources on the Internet are ephemeral and may be here today and gone tomorrow.

PRIMARY soucrces are books.  Bibliographies are what are needed.   :)

Yes, but many people sitting at home are not professional Theologians or folks writing papers - they're just faithful (or inquirers) who want to do some extra research, and it would be helpful for them if they knew where they could find copies of the primary source material.  References don't have to be clickable, but they do have to be accessible - neither you nor I have the actual acts of the 6th Ecumenical Council with us, but we both know of collections where we can find copies, manuscripts, or translations.  That's what Father is asking for, for the benefit of others who are faced with the same dilemmas and who are seeking better knowledge of the Orthodox faith.
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Offline antiderivative

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #133 on: March 06, 2009, 12:34:43 AM »
I'm not sure if this helps, but does Canon 6 of Nicea ring a bell to anyone?

Quote
Let the ancient customs prevail which were in vogue in Egypt and Libya and Pentapolis, to allow the bishop of Alexandria to have authority over all these parts, since this is also the treatment usually accorded to the bishop of Rome. Likewise with reference to Antioch, and in other provinces, let the seniority be preserved to the Churches. In general it is obvious that in the case in which anyone has been made a bishop without the Metropolitan’s approval, the great Council has prescribed that such a person must not be a Bishop. If, however, to the common vote of all, though reasonable and in accordance with an ecclesiastical Canon, two or three men object on account of a private quarrel, let the vote of the majority prevail.

I got this from a web page that has all the canons of the 7 ecumenical councils.
It offers and interpretation of this canon:
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0835/_P8.HTM
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: David Newman and the Pope
« Reply #134 on: March 06, 2009, 01:24:18 AM »
David/Euthymios, this is an official request, by myself, the moderator of this section, echoing that previously put forward by a forum administrator.  Please provide proper citations!  For example:  [Thiel, 955] means nothing to us.  Now, if you were to say it was from Thiel's Epistolae Romanorum Pontificum Genuinae, Epistola 132,... that is something we can work with.  Expanding on certain acronymns would be helpful as well.  You don't have to follow the Chicago Manual style or anything, but something more substantial is needed.

Thank you.

-- Nebelpfade
Section Moderator


Wow...there is quite a parallel indeed:


Evlogeite and Christos Anesti!

I want to clarify that I am not a Catholic [in the apostate Roman sense]. I am Greek Orthodox. The material I have supplied on this site, comes from my friends yet to be published book called "Keys Over the Christian World," by John Collorafi. He is a Roman Catholic. I have recently sent the manuscript copy of his book to a very scholarly Greek monastery. They will have their hands full with this book, but I am confident they will be able to produce a valuable response and review [critique] of its contents.

If anyone knows any Orthodox patristic scholar who would be willing to review this book [the book is encylopedic in information and extremlely detailed], let me know and I will send him a free copy. I have to print and bind myself. I have the book on disc. I have my own answers / refutations of the book; but I would like to hear a review from the Orthodox scholarly community. Some consider Collorafi the greatest expert on the first 900 years of papal history, alive in the world today.


I apologize for my sins and the confusion I have caused.

Alithos anesti!

I guess we know his source  ;)
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.