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David Newman
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« on: March 04, 2009, 04:03:01 AM »


 Hello, I am happy to be here.  I hope they allow dialogue and friendly debate here. I hope I am in the right section for this. I am fully Orthodox, but I believe the bishops of Rome (the popes) were considered the head of the Church within the first millenum. I want to discuss this because I have come across some Orthodox people who deny this. Christ is the spiritual head of the entire Church. But this does not mean he did not leave the visible Church on earth with a visible head to safeguard unity and orthodoxy. It's not an "either / or" (either Christ OR the pope). It can be both. I believe this was the understanding of the ancient Church. If local parishes can have a head (a priest), and Metropolitans, bishops, etc, as head of their diocese, then why can't the whole Church also have a head? I submit it can.
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« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2009, 04:08:44 AM »


 Hello, I am happy to be here.  I hope they allow dialogue and friendly debate here. I hope I am in the right section for this. I am fully Orthodox, but I believe the bishops of Rome (the popes) were considered the head of the Church within the first millenum. I want to discuss this because I have come across some Orthodox people who deny this. Christ is the spiritual head of the entire Church. But this does not mean he did not leave the visible Church on earth with a visible head to safeguard unity and orthodoxy. It's not an "either / or" (either Christ OR the pope). It can be both. I believe this was the understanding of the ancient Church. If local parishes can have a head (a priest), and Metropolitans, bishops, etc, as head of their diocese, then why can't the whole Church also have a head? I submit it can.

What is a "Kiousis synod?"
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« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2009, 04:09:08 AM »


With all due respect to the people who voted "no," they are clearly not educated in Church history. Here are a few examples from the pre-schism Church showing the popes to be head of the Church. I'm Orthodox and I'm an honest Orthodox. The facts are the facts.



Pope Innocent wrote to the Council of Carthage in 417 and referred to his see as one "incorrupt head." [PL 20:582-3].

Prosper [5th century] called the See of Peter the "head of the pastoral office for the world." [PL. 51:96].

The Priest Philip [5th century].- called the pope the "head". [ACO I: 1: 3:58].

Cyril of Alexandria [5th century] called Pope Celestine "archbishop of the entire habitable world." [PG 77: 1040].

In 450 the empreror Valentinian told Theodosius that the the bishop of Rome holds the principality of the priesthood over all." [Inter epp. S. Leonis, 55. PL 54:859].

At the Council of Chalcedon, the priest Paschasinus stood and made the announcement: "We have in our hands orders from the most blessed and apostolic pope of the city of Rome, which is head of all the churches...." [ACO II, Vol. 3, pt. 1, 40].

He also called Pope Leo "universal pope, Leo." [ACO II, Vol. 3, Pt. 2, 18].

And "universal archbishop and patriarch of Great Rome." [ACO II, Vol. 1, Pt. 2, 15 sq].

At the end of the fifth session of Chalcedon, Emperor Marcian characterized Pope Leo as "the most blessed and apostolic pope of the universal church." [Mansi 7:132-6].

In 451, the bishops wrote to Pope Leo and said Leo "had been in charge as the head.." [Inter epp. S. Leonis, 98. PL 54: 952].

They called him the "head" and "summit." [PL 54:958].

The emperor Marcian said "Leo is the first of the arhchbishops." [Nau, 263-4].

The bishops of second Moesia defended the Council of Chalcedon and called "Leo, bishop of Rome, who is head of bishops." [ACO IV, Vol. 5, 32].

In 485, a Roman synod of 43 bishops met and they wrote to the clergy and archimandrites of Constantinople. saying "the faith of your holiness has been proven to the Apostolic See, which rules over us all." [CSEL 35: 158-9].

In 484, Eugene, primate of Carthage spoke of the pope as "the Roman Church, head of all the churches." PL 58: 215].

In 517, Pope Hormisdas received appeals from the east signed by alomst 200 signatures which refered to the pope as "patriarch of the whole world...Christ our God has constituted you prince of pastors...[you] are head of all." [CSEL 35: 572 sq].

Emperor Justinain wrote the pope saying "...the Lord will bring about through you, as Supreme Shepherd, the salvation of all." [Thiel, 955].

Justinain wrote to Epiphanius saying "...holy pope and patriarch of old Rome, to whom we have written likewise. For we do not allow anything pertaining to ecclesiastical order not to be reported to His Beatitude, since he is head of all the holy priests of God..."[Codex Iustinianus I 1, 7. Ed. P. Krueger, Corpus Iuris Civilis, Berlin 1882, Vol. II, 8].

In 533 Justinian called Pope John II ".....head of all the churches." [Codex Iustianus I 1, 8. Corpus Irus Civilis, Berlin 1882, Vol. II, 11].

Pope Damasus [382]: ".....nevertheless the holy Roman Church has been set before the other churches not by any synodical decrees, but by the evangelical voice of the Lord and Savior, saying "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church......."[Epp. VII, 34. PL 77:893].

Pope Boniface [418-422] wrote to the bishops of Thessaly and said of the Roman church: "... this Roman church is to the Churches spread through the world, as it were, the head of it's own members, from which whoever cuts himself off is expelled from the Christian religion..." [PL. 20:777-79].
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« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2009, 04:11:56 AM »

Sorry, David. The Orthodox Church has always been conciliar. Every patriarch (and even every bishop, irrespective of rank) has had an equal voice in the life of the Church. The west has distorted the idea of "first among equals" (as in, which patriarch has the casting vote, and little more than this) to support the idea that the Pope of Rome is supreme. Not so. The Head of the whole Orthodox Church is Christ, and the Church is led by the Holy Spirit.

Each bishop and patriarch is responsible for safeguarding doctrinal, liturgical and theological unity. But no one bishop or patriarch has the authority to override all other bishops or patriarchs in such matters, unless all of these had fallen into heresy or other grave error.
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« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2009, 04:12:45 AM »

What is a "Kiousis synod?"

The Kiousis synod is one of the various schismatic Greek Old Calendarist groups.
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« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2009, 04:13:13 AM »


You can learn more about us here ( www.thegreekorthodoxchurch.com).

I'm not technically with them yet, but I am in spirit and faith -- hopefully.
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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2009, 04:14:44 AM »


 Hello, I am happy to be here.  I hope they allow dialogue and friendly debate here. I hope I am in the right section for this. I am fully Orthodox, but I believe the bishops of Rome (the popes) were considered the head of the Church within the first millenum. I want to discuss this because I have come across some Orthodox people who deny this. Christ is the spiritual head of the entire Church. But this does not mean he did not leave the visible Church on earth with a visible head to safeguard unity and orthodoxy. It's not an "either / or" (either Christ OR the pope). It can be both. I believe this was the understanding of the ancient Church. If local parishes can have a head (a priest), and Metropolitans, bishops, etc, as head of their diocese, then why can't the whole Church also have a head? I submit it can.

What is a "Kiousis synod?"

I had no idea either until I googled and found this:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Old_Calendarists

"The Chrysostomite Synod: Amidst charges of maladministration, the majority of the Florinite synod chose in 1986 a new leader in Archbishop Chrysostom (Kiousis), who demonstrated rather effectively that the True Orthodox in Greece were a force to be reckoned with. Choosing to take on the Greek legal system, court cases were held where it was demonstrated that the Old Calendarists of Greece were not schismatics. Though their public reputation had been tarnished over nearly two decades of divisions, their legal existence was, and is presently, safe. The synod of Chrysostom of Athens is today the largest synod of the True Orthodox Church of Greece. "
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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2009, 04:15:02 AM »

LBK, this is poisoning the well and a red herring. Please, let us stay on topic. But we don't fit the definition of schism because we never left the Church. Those in the WCC and other Freemasonic organizations left the Church. We never went anywhere.
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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2009, 04:17:07 AM »

Hello David

It would be useful for you to locate the text for the vigil (festal Vespers and Matins) service for the feast of Apostles Peter and Paul. There are several threads on this forum which deal with the primacy or otherwise of the see of Rome, and of the primacy or otherwise of Apostle Peter, as well as at least one thread which contains much of the hymnody for the above-mentioned feast.
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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2009, 04:19:30 AM »

Sorry, David. The Orthodox Church has always been conciliar. Every patriarch (and even every bishop, irrespective of rank) has had an equal voice in the life of the Church. The west has distorted the idea of "first among equals" (as in, which patriarch has the casting vote, and little more than this) to support the idea that the Pope of Rome is supreme. Not so. The Head of the whole Orthodox Church is Christ, and the Church is led by the Holy Spirit.

Each bishop and patriarch is responsible for safeguarding doctrinal, liturgical and theological unity. But no one bishop or patriarch has the authority to override all other bishops or patriarchs in such matters, unless all of these had fallen into heresy or other grave error.

At the Council of Chalcedon, the Roman legate Paschasinus made the following statement:

"We have in our hands orders from the most blessed and apostolic pope of the city of Rome, which is head of all the churches......" [ACO II, Vol. 3, Pt. 1, 40].

Do you agree?
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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2009, 04:21:20 AM »

Wow. This is a popular thread.  Grin

you misspelled redundant.
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2009, 04:22:42 AM »

Sorry, David. The Orthodox Church has always been conciliar. Every patriarch (and even every bishop, irrespective of rank) has had an equal voice in the life of the Church. The west has distorted the idea of "first among equals" (as in, which patriarch has the casting vote, and little more than this) to support the idea that the Pope of Rome is supreme. Not so. The Head of the whole Orthodox Church is Christ, and the Church is led by the Holy Spirit.

Each bishop and patriarch is responsible for safeguarding doctrinal, liturgical and theological unity. But no one bishop or patriarch has the authority to override all other bishops or patriarchs in such matters, unless all of these had fallen into heresy or other grave error.

You're wrong, just like the other Orthodox I have talked to about this.

LETERAN COUNCIL [649].

Saint Maximus the Confessor put this council on the same level as an Ecumenical council.

Pope Martin called this council. The opening of the Acts exist in Latin and Greek and calls it:

"the holy apostolic synod, which occurred in the most celebrated Old Rome, according to the sacred command and canonical procurement of the most holy and thrice blessed Pope Martin, who presided over the entire divine hierarchy under the sun, for the establishment and defense of the dogmas of the fathers and synods of the Catholic and apostolic Church according to the gospel." [Mansi X, 863-64].

The notary Theophylact asked Pope Martin to address the bishops, "over which you are pre-eminent through the great and apostolic summit, which is in charge of all the priests throughout the world." [Mansi X, 867-70].

The conciliar acts contain a letter from Maurus, bishop of Ravenna, "to the most holy and most blessed, apostolic and universal pontiff throughout the whole world, Pope Martin." [Mansi X, 883-90].

Pope Martin allowed Stephen, bishop of Dora to enter, in accordance with his petition.

Bishop Stephen of Dora stated:

"And for this cause, we sometimes asked for...the wings of a dove...that we might fly away and announce these things to that chair which rules and presides over all, that is to yours, the head and highest..." [Mansi X, 893].

Nothing that he had offered his profession of faith "to the all-holy president, the thrice blessed pope Martin...." [Mansi X, 902].

Stephen was followed by a delegation of Greek and Armenian monks led by John, abbot of St. Sabas, who described the council as meeting "by command of the one divinely presiding over you, priest of priests and father of fathers pre-eminent over all, our Lord Martin, the thrice blessed pope...."  And he talked about "this highest and apostolic throne...." [Mansi X, 903-5].

Bishop John continued, "this is why we urge and implore you all, most holy fathers, and the apostolic and highest throne" to anathematize the heretics. "The hearts of all look to you, after God, knowing that you have been established by Christ our God as leader and head of the churches." [Mansi X, 905-8].
 
POPE SAINT GELASIUS

Pope Gelasius wrote the emperer in 494:

"If it is fitting that the hearts of the faithful show submission to a universal gathering of priests rightly handling divine things, how much more should consent be given to the bishop of that see which the supreme divinity willed to be pre-eminent over other priests, and the universal churches' subsequent piety has continually celebrated? In every century, the authority of the Apostolic See has been in charge of the universal church, and is confirmed by the series of canons of the Fathers and by a manifold tradition." [Thiel, 350-56].
 
St. Gelasius wrote to the bishops of Dardania on February 1, 495, defending Rome's right to enforce the decrees of Chalcedon:
 
"The first see both confirms every synod by its authority and guards by its continuous rule, by reason, namely, of its supremacy, which, received by the apostle Peter by the mouth of the Lord, the Church however seconding it, it both has always held, and retains... We will not pass over in silence what ever church throughout the world knows, that the see of blessed apostle Peter has the right to absolve from what has been bound by the sentence of any prelates whatsoever, in that it has the right of judging of the whole Church; neither is it lawful for anyone to pass judgement on its judgement, seeing that the canons have willed that appeals to it may be made from any part of the world, but from it nobody be permitted to appeal." [Theil, 395-9].
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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2009, 04:24:49 AM »

Hello David

It would be useful for you to locate the text for the vigil (festal Vespers and Matins) service for the feast of Apostles Peter and Paul. There are several threads on this forum which deal with the primacy or otherwise of the see of Rome, and of the primacy or otherwise of Apostle Peter, as well as at least one thread which contains much of the hymnody for the above-mentioned feast.

We can get into Saint Peter if you want. Do you deny that Peter was the chief, head, and leader of the apostles?
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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2009, 04:26:37 AM »


With all due respect to the people who voted "no," they are clearly not educated in Church history. Here are a few examples from the pre-schism Church showing the popes to be head of the Church. I'm Orthodox and I'm an honest Orthodox. The facts are the facts.



Pope Innocent wrote to the Council of Carthage in 417 and referred to his see as one "incorrupt head." [PL 20:582-3].

Prosper [5th century] called the See of Peter the "head of the pastoral office for the world." [PL. 51:96].

The Priest Philip [5th century].- called the pope the "head". [ACO I: 1: 3:58].

Cyril of Alexandria [5th century] called Pope Celestine "archbishop of the entire habitable world." [PG 77: 1040].

In 450 the empreror Valentinian told Theodosius that the the bishop of Rome holds the principality of the priesthood over all." [Inter epp. S. Leonis, 55. PL 54:859].

At the Council of Chalcedon, the priest Paschasinus stood and made the announcement: "We have in our hands orders from the most blessed and apostolic pope of the city of Rome, which is head of all the churches...." [ACO II, Vol. 3, pt. 1, 40].

He also called Pope Leo "universal pope, Leo." [ACO II, Vol. 3, Pt. 2, 18].

And "universal archbishop and patriarch of Great Rome." [ACO II, Vol. 1, Pt. 2, 15 sq].

At the end of the fifth session of Chalcedon, Emperor Marcian characterized Pope Leo as "the most blessed and apostolic pope of the universal church." [Mansi 7:132-6].

In 451, the bishops wrote to Pope Leo and said Leo "had been in charge as the head.." [Inter epp. S. Leonis, 98. PL 54: 952].

They called him the "head" and "summit." [PL 54:958].

The emperor Marcian said "Leo is the first of the arhchbishops." [Nau, 263-4].

The bishops of second Moesia defended the Council of Chalcedon and called "Leo, bishop of Rome, who is head of bishops." [ACO IV, Vol. 5, 32].

In 485, a Roman synod of 43 bishops met and they wrote to the clergy and archimandrites of Constantinople. saying "the faith of your holiness has been proven to the Apostolic See, which rules over us all." [CSEL 35: 158-9].

In 484, Eugene, primate of Carthage spoke of the pope as "the Roman Church, head of all the churches." PL 58: 215].

In 517, Pope Hormisdas received appeals from the east signed by alomst 200 signatures which refered to the pope as "patriarch of the whole world...Christ our God has constituted you prince of pastors...[you] are head of all." [CSEL 35: 572 sq].

Emperor Justinain wrote the pope saying "...the Lord will bring about through you, as Supreme Shepherd, the salvation of all." [Thiel, 955].

Justinain wrote to Epiphanius saying "...holy pope and patriarch of old Rome, to whom we have written likewise. For we do not allow anything pertaining to ecclesiastical order not to be reported to His Beatitude, since he is head of all the holy priests of God..."[Codex Iustinianus I 1, 7. Ed. P. Krueger, Corpus Iuris Civilis, Berlin 1882, Vol. II, 8].

In 533 Justinian called Pope John II ".....head of all the churches." [Codex Iustianus I 1, 8. Corpus Irus Civilis, Berlin 1882, Vol. II, 11].

Pope Damasus [382]: ".....nevertheless the holy Roman Church has been set before the other churches not by any synodical decrees, but by the evangelical voice of the Lord and Savior, saying "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church......."[Epp. VII, 34. PL 77:893].

Pope Boniface [418-422] wrote to the bishops of Thessaly and said of the Roman church: "... this Roman church is to the Churches spread through the world, as it were, the head of it's own members, from which whoever cuts himself off is expelled from the Christian religion..." [PL. 20:777-79].

Brief, because I'm tired.

1.  It's Pope Cyril and Archbishop Celestine.  Otherwise, you are being anachronistic.

2. Many/most of your quotes have the pope of Rome or his entourage saying that he's the head.  Not terribly impressive.

One point: today the Vatican has her pope commemorated in the diptychs of every service no matter where in the world.  Any evidence of this in the first millennium?
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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2009, 04:28:12 AM »


You can learn more about us here ( www.thegreekorthodoxchurch.com).

I'm not technically with them yet, but I am in spirit and faith -- hopefully.

Ok, in spirit you are with them. In reality what jurisdiction are you a part of? Are you a catechumen? Are you part of another jurisdiction and desiring to change? Do you like them but there aren't any close enough to attend?
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« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2009, 04:29:55 AM »

 Lets let the Lateran Council [649], Saint Maximus the Confessor and Saint Theodore the Studite explain this to us.

SAINT MAXIMUS THE CONFESSOR

]He was following the events regarding Pope Honorius closely. Writing to an abbot named Thalassius, he described the behavior of the Roman legates:

".....How much more is this the case with the Church and clergy of Rome, which from of old up to this time, as the eldest of all the churches under the sun, has the pre-eminence over all.. Having undoubtedly obtained this canonically, both from the councils and from the apostles as well as from their supreme principality, because of the eminence of her pontificate she is not bound to produce any writings of synodical letters, just as in these matters all are subject to her, in accordance with priestly law.........as firm ministers of the truly solid and i mmovable rock, that is, the greatest apostolic church....." [Mansi X, 677-8].


Saint Maximus also stated:

"....the Apostolic See, which from God the incarnate Word Himself as well as all the holy Councils, according to the sacred canons and definitions, has received and possesses supreme power in all things and for all things, over all the holy churches of God throughout the world, as well as power and authority of binding and loosing. For with this church, the Word, who commands the powers of heaven, binds and looses in heave n...."[ PG 91: 144].

Theodore the Studite wrote to Pope Leo III[795-816]:


...O arch-shepherd of the church... save us now... For if they, usurping an authority which does not belong to them, have dared to convene a heretical council, whereas those who follow ancient custom do not even have the right of convening an orthodox one without your knowledge, it seems absolutely necessary, we dare to say to you, that your divine primacy should call together a lawful council, so that the Catholic dogma may drive out heresy and that your primacy may neither be anathematized by these new voices lacking authority...

It is in order to obey your divine authority as chief pastor that we have set forth these things as it befitted our nothingness... [PG 99: 1017-21]

St. Theodore wrote to Pope Paschal[817-824]:

... O apostolic head, divinely established shepherd of Christ’s sheep, doorkeeper of the heavenly kingdom, rock of the faith on which the Catholic Church has been built. For you are Peter-- you are the successor of Peter, whose throne you grace and direct... To you did Christ our God say, "When you have been converted, strengthen your brethren." Now is the time and the place: help us, you who have been established by God for that purpose... [PG 99: 1152-3]


LATERAN COUNCIL [649]

Saint Maximos the Confessor put this council on the same status of the ecumenical councils. He approved of this council. And he stated the following:

"For ever since the Word of God condescended to us and became a man, all the Churches of Christians everywhere have held, and hold the great Church [Rome] there as their sole basis and foundation, because, according to the very promises of the Lord, the gates of hell have never prevailed over her, but rather she has the keys of the orthodox faith and confession; she opens the genuine and only piety to those who approach her piously, but closes every heretical mouth that speaks injustice." [PG 91:137-40].

Now, lets take a look at what the Lateran Council stated. This council was convened to refute the Mo nothelite heresy.

The notary Theophylact welcomed the bishops, explaining that Pope Martin had summoned them to overthrow a new heresy "by his apostolic authority." Then, turning to the pope, Theophylact asked him to address the gathering of the bishops, "over which you are pre-eminent through the great apostolic summit,which is in charge of all preists throught the world."[Mansi X, 867-70].
0A
The conciliar acts contain a letter from Maurus, bishop of Ravenna, "to the most holy and most blessed, apostolic and universal pontiff throughout the world, Pope Martin." [Mansi X,20883-90].

Bishop Stephen of Dora explained the origins of the heresy, and said:

"And for this cause, we sometimes asked for...the wings of a dove..that we might fly away and announce these things to that Chair which rules and presides over all, that is to yours, the head and highest...For this it has been accustomed to do from of old and from the beginning with power by its canonical or spiritual authority, because the truly and great Peter, leader of the apostles, clearly was deemed worthy not only to be entrusted the keys of heaven, alone [and] apart from the rest worthy to open it to believers...." [Mansi X, 893].

A Greek and Armenian delegation of monks was led by John, abbot of St. Sabas, who described the council as meeting " by command of the one divinely presiding over you, priest of priests and father of fathers pre-eminent over all, our Lord Martin, the thrice blessed pope." [Mansi X, 903-5].

John continued."this is why we urge and implore you all, most holy fathers, and the apostolic and highest throne to anathematize heretics. The hearts of all look to you, after God, knowing that you have been established by Christ our God as leader ane head of the churches." [Mansi X, 905-8].
=0 A
The notary Theophylact also stated:

"To my most holy and most blessed and divinely strengthened master, father of fathers, archbishop and ecumenical patriarch...Sergius sends greetings in the Lord. O sacred summit, Christ our God has establisged your apostolic see as a fixed and immovable foundation, and a most luminous pillar of the faith. For you are, as the divine word rightly says, Peter, and upon your foundation have the pillars of the Church been fixed....[Mansi X, 911-14].

Theophylact also read an intervention, which three African councils had sent in 643:

"To the most blessed lord raised to the apostolic summit, the holy father of fathe rs, pope Theodore, supreme pontiff of all bishops, ...[Mansi X, 909].

Pope Martin observed that requests were coming in from all over the Catholic world, "imploring our apostolic and supreme see to arise in condemnation of the new doctrine." Mansi X, 923].

Maximus, primate of Aquileia, remarked that God "has raised up the holy spirit of a m an burning with zeal for the Lord, whose venerable name [is] Martin, who has convoked us in holy fashion, and presides over us by apostolic authority." [Mansi X, 1055].
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« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2009, 04:33:58 AM »

SAINT MAXIMUS THE CONFESSOR

He was following the events regarding Pope Honorius closely. Writing to an abbot named Thalassius, he described the behavior of the Roman legates:

".....How much more is this the case with the Church and clergy of Rome, which from of old up to this time, as the eldest of all the churches under the sun, has the pre-eminence over all.. Having undoubtedly obtained this canonically, both from the councils and from the apostles as well as from their supreme principality, because of the eminence of her pontificate she is not bound to produce any writings of synodical letters, just as in these matters all are subject to her, in accordance with priestly law.........as firm ministers of the truly solid and i mmovable rock, that is, the greatest apostolic church....." [Mansi X, 677-8].


Saint Maximus also stated:

"....the Apostolic See, which from God the incarnate Word Himself as well as all the holy Councils, according to the sacred canons and definitions, has received and possesses supreme power in all things and for all things, over all the holy churches of God throughout the world, as well as power and authority of binding and loosing. For with this church, the Word, who commands the powers of heaven, binds and looses in heave n...."[ PG 91: 144].

Theodore the Studite wrote to Pope Leo III[795-816]:


...O arch-shepherd of the church... save us now... For if they, usurping an authority which does not belong to them, have dared to convene a heretical council, whereas those who follow ancient custom do not even have the right of convening an orthodox one without your knowledge, it seems absolutely necessary, we dare to say to you, that your divine primacy should call together a lawful council, so that the Catholic dogma may drive out heresy and that your primacy may neither be anathematized by these new voices lacking authority...

It is in order to obey your divine authority as chief pastor that we have set forth these things as it befitted our nothingness... [PG 99: 1017-21]

St. Theodore wrote to Pope Paschal[817-824]:

... O apostolic head, divinely established shepherd of Christ’s sheep, doorkeeper of the heavenly kingdom, rock of the faith on which the Catholic Church has been built. For you are Peter-- you are the successor of Peter, whose throne you grace and direct... To you did Christ our God say, "When you have been converted, strengthen your brethren." Now is the time and the place: help us, you who have been established by God for that purpose... [PG 99: 1152-3]
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« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2009, 04:35:42 AM »

Sorry, David. The Orthodox Church has always been conciliar. Every patriarch (and even every bishop, irrespective of rank) has had an equal voice in the life of the Church. The west has distorted the idea of "first among equals" (as in, which patriarch has the casting vote, and little more than this) to support the idea that the Pope of Rome is supreme. Not so. The Head of the whole Orthodox Church is Christ, and the Church is led by the Holy Spirit.

Each bishop and patriarch is responsible for safeguarding doctrinal, liturgical and theological unity. But no one bishop or patriarch has the authority to override all other bishops or patriarchs in such matters, unless all of these had fallen into heresy or other grave error.

You're wrong, just like the other Orthodox I have talked to about this.

LETERAN COUNCIL [649].

Saint Maximus the Confessor put this council on the same level as an Ecumenical council.

He was wrong.

Quote
Pope Martin called this council. The opening of the Acts exist in Latin and Greek and calls it:

"the holy apostolic synod, which occurred in the most celebrated Old Rome, according to the sacred command and canonical procurement of the most holy and thrice blessed Pope Martin, who presided over the entire divine hierarchy under the sun, for the establishment and defense of the dogmas of the fathers and synods of the Catholic and apostolic Church according to the gospel." [Mansi X, 863-64].

The notary Theophylact asked Pope Martin to address the bishops, "over which you are pre-eminent through the great and apostolic summit, which is in charge of all the priests throughout the world." [Mansi X, 867-70].

The conciliar acts contain a letter from Maurus, bishop of Ravenna, "to the most holy and most blessed, apostolic and universal pontiff throughout the whole world, Pope Martin." [Mansi X, 883-90].

Pope Martin allowed Stephen, bishop of Dora to enter, in accordance with his petition.

Bishop Stephen of Dora stated:

"And for this cause, we sometimes asked for...the wings of a dove...that we might fly away and announce these things to that chair which rules and presides over all, that is to yours, the head and highest..." [Mansi X, 893].

Nothing that he had offered his profession of faith "to the all-holy president, the thrice blessed pope Martin...." [Mansi X, 902].

Stephen was followed by a delegation of Greek and Armenian monks led by John, abbot of St. Sabas, who described the council as meeting "by command of the one divinely presiding over you, priest of priests and father of fathers pre-eminent over all, our Lord Martin, the thrice blessed pope...."  And he talked about "this highest and apostolic throne...." [Mansi X, 903-5].

Bishop John continued, "this is why we urge and implore you all, most holy fathers, and the apostolic and highest throne" to anathematize the heretics. "The hearts of all look to you, after God, knowing that you have been established by Christ our God as leader and head of the churches." [Mansi X, 905-8].

The Ecumenical Council (according to the Vatican and us Orthodox.  I don't know about your synod) of Constantinople III condemned Pope Honorius of Rome as a heretic (and praised Patriarch Sophronios of Jerusalem, btw).  Your point?
 
Quote
POPE SAINT GELASIUS

Pope Gelasius wrote the emperer in 494:

"If it is fitting that the hearts of the faithful show submission to a universal gathering of priests rightly handling divine things, how much more should consent be given to the bishop of that see which the supreme divinity willed to be pre-eminent over other priests, and the universal churches' subsequent piety has continually celebrated? In every century, the authority of the Apostolic See has been in charge of the universal church, and is confirmed by the series of canons of the Fathers and by a manifold tradition." [Thiel, 350-56].
 
St. Gelasius wrote to the bishops of Dardania on February 1, 495, defending Rome's right to enforce the decrees of Chalcedon:
 
"The first see both confirms every synod by its authority and guards by its continuous rule, by reason, namely, of its supremacy, which, received by the apostle Peter by the mouth of the Lord, the Church however seconding it, it both has always held, and retains... We will not pass over in silence what ever church throughout the world knows, that the see of blessed apostle Peter has the right to absolve from what has been bound by the sentence of any prelates whatsoever, in that it has the right of judging of the whole Church; neither is it lawful for anyone to pass judgement on its judgement, seeing that the canons have willed that appeals to it may be made from any part of the world, but from it nobody be permitted to appeal." [Theil, 395-9].


Is this the same Pope whose name is associated with the forged Gelasian decrees?
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« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2009, 04:38:08 AM »

You're wrong, just like the other Orthodox I have talked to about this.

Psst...dude, you just gave yourself away. laugh
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« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2009, 04:38:53 AM »

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« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2009, 04:40:46 AM »


The Christian emperors were never viewed as head of the Church. The emperors were never ordained by God. They don't even exist anymore. Historically, the popes were considered head of the universal Church. Even the emperor Justinian called the pope the head of the Church.
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« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2009, 04:41:13 AM »

Lets let the Lateran Council [649], Saint Maximus the Confessor and Saint Theodore the Studite explain this to us.

ignoring all context, let's not.

Nice art  Ukiemiester.  And since a picture is worth a thousand words, you've spared us.
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« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2009, 04:44:10 AM »

ialmisry,

I saw your comments.

First, who are you to say Saint Maximus the Confessor was wrong? You're supposed to believe him as an Orthodox Christian.

Second, Honorius was condemned for negligence, not heresy. Even Saint Maximus the Confessor spoke highly of Honorius.

Third, modern scholarship favors that the Decree of Damasus comes from Pope Damasus. What is your proof it's a forgery?
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« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2009, 04:46:15 AM »


The Christian emperors were never viewed as head of the Church. The emperors were never ordained by God. They don't even exist anymore. Historically, the popes were considered head of the universal Church. Even the emperor Justinian called the pope the head of the Church.

Dude....5 years?!!!!
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« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2009, 04:48:59 AM »

Lets let the Lateran Council [649], Saint Maximus the Confessor and Saint Theodore the Studite explain this to us.

ignoring all context, let's not.

Nice art  Ukiemiester.  And since a picture is worth a thousand words, you've spared us.

I try....barely two days into the Great Fast and we have Kallikantzaroi....how nice...
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« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2009, 04:49:01 AM »


 Hello, I am happy to be here.  I hope they allow dialogue and friendly debate here. I hope I am in the right section for this. I am fully Orthodox.....

I am a little confused, if you truly believe that the Pope is the head of the church why aren't you part of a church that recognizes that?
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« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2009, 04:50:31 AM »

ialmisry,

I saw your comments.

First, who are you to say Saint Maximus the Confessor was wrong? You're supposed to believe him as an Orthodox Christian.

If I believed he was infallible, that would make me a heretic.  Vatican moles should know that.

Quote
Second, Honorius was condemned for negligence, not heresy.

This just reeks of Vatican double speak.  Please don't dishonor the Old Calendarists.

Quote
Even Saint Maximus the Confessor spoke highly of Honorius.

And he was wrong.

Quote
Third, modern scholarship favors that the Decree of Damasus comes from Pope Damasus. What is your proof it's a forgery?

It quotes St. Augustine, over thirty years after Pope St. Damasus reposed.

I am a little confused, if you truly believe that the Pope is the head of the church why aren't you part of a church that recognizes that?

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
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« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2009, 04:54:59 AM »

You're wrong, just like the other Orthodox I have talked to about this.

Psst...dude, you just gave yourself away. laugh

Love to see the other side of the story.

Hi, I'm new here. I just left a forum from another site that bordered on psychotic. They had to approve all my posts before they posted them. They disaproved of over 99.9% of my posts for the most insane reasons you can imagine. I got tired of dealing with them. And then they had totally ludicrous reasons why they disaproved them. For example,  they didn't like the format. What does that even mean? They didn't like a color I used for a font. Why then even give us the options to color fonts? I wanted to correct and edit a typo in one of the posts they allowed, and even that had to be approved. And then it turns out they didn't like my edit! They didn't approive of my edit/correction of my spelling! Is this crazy or what? And then I quoted a church father with the reference, and they didin't approve it and they didn't mail me any explanation why they didn't approve it! And then they would fill my mailbox with all the reasons why they didn't allow my posts. Their messages would be from an nameless "Administrator." When I clicked the "reply" button to ask questions about what was wrong with my posts (absolutely nothing was ever wrong with them), I got a message back that told me that I couldn't reply to these messages and that I needed to look around the site for an Administrator. Isn't this crazy? If they didn't accept messages, why then did they have a "reply" feature. I can go on and on. That is the most psychotic and controlling forum I have ever seen anywhere on the internet. And they were Orthodox!

I like it here better. I didn't even have to very anything through email conformation. I'm happy to be here.
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« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2009, 04:58:39 AM »

Quote
I'll be back tomorrow to see how people responded to the little information I gave.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20028.msg297882/topicseen.html#msg297882

Information? Must have missed it.  Or was it that little?
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« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2009, 05:04:00 AM »


Uh, I just posted a statement that the emperors were never viewed as head of the Church, and that they were not ordained by God. And I stated that the emperor Justinian called the pope head of the Church. My post is gone. I need to know right now if this forum is psychotic like the last one I was at. I am finding more and more that the orthodox are not being honest about Church history. This REALLY freightens me.
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« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2009, 05:06:12 AM »

It was moved onto the thread you already started. Cross posting the same info is a no-no, it is basically spamming. And you will end up moderated or possibly muted if you don't stop cross posting the same information. People are pretty reasonable around here and put up with a lot. But if you don't play nicely and follow the rules you will have no fun.
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« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2009, 05:07:41 AM »


With all due respect to the people who voted "no," they are clearly not educated in Church history. Here are a few examples from the pre-schism Church showing the popes to be head of the Church. I'm Orthodox and I'm an honest Orthodox. The facts are the facts.



Pope Innocent wrote to the Council of Carthage in 417 and referred to his see as one "incorrupt head." [PL 20:582-3].

Prosper [5th century] called the See of Peter the "head of the pastoral office for the world." [PL. 51:96].

The Priest Philip [5th century].- called the pope the "head". [ACO I: 1: 3:58].

Cyril of Alexandria [5th century] called Pope Celestine "archbishop of the entire habitable world." [PG 77: 1040].

In 450 the empreror Valentinian told Theodosius that the the bishop of Rome holds the principality of the priesthood over all." [Inter epp. S. Leonis, 55. PL 54:859].

At the Council of Chalcedon, the priest Paschasinus stood and made the announcement: "We have in our hands orders from the most blessed and apostolic pope of the city of Rome, which is head of all the churches...." [ACO II, Vol. 3, pt. 1, 40].

He also called Pope Leo "universal pope, Leo." [ACO II, Vol. 3, Pt. 2, 18].

And "universal archbishop and patriarch of Great Rome." [ACO II, Vol. 1, Pt. 2, 15 sq].

At the end of the fifth session of Chalcedon, Emperor Marcian characterized Pope Leo as "the most blessed and apostolic pope of the universal church." [Mansi 7:132-6].

In 451, the bishops wrote to Pope Leo and said Leo "had been in charge as the head.." [Inter epp. S. Leonis, 98. PL 54: 952].

They called him the "head" and "summit." [PL 54:958].

The emperor Marcian said "Leo is the first of the arhchbishops." [Nau, 263-4].

The bishops of second Moesia defended the Council of Chalcedon and called "Leo, bishop of Rome, who is head of bishops." [ACO IV, Vol. 5, 32].

In 485, a Roman synod of 43 bishops met and they wrote to the clergy and archimandrites of Constantinople. saying "the faith of your holiness has been proven to the Apostolic See, which rules over us all." [CSEL 35: 158-9].

In 484, Eugene, primate of Carthage spoke of the pope as "the Roman Church, head of all the churches." PL 58: 215].

In 517, Pope Hormisdas received appeals from the east signed by alomst 200 signatures which refered to the pope as "patriarch of the whole world...Christ our God has constituted you prince of pastors...[you] are head of all." [CSEL 35: 572 sq].

Emperor Justinain wrote the pope saying "...the Lord will bring about through you, as Supreme Shepherd, the salvation of all." [Thiel, 955].

Justinain wrote to Epiphanius saying "...holy pope and patriarch of old Rome, to whom we have written likewise. For we do not allow anything pertaining to ecclesiastical order not to be reported to His Beatitude, since he is head of all the holy priests of God..."[Codex Iustinianus I 1, 7. Ed. P. Krueger, Corpus Iuris Civilis, Berlin 1882, Vol. II, 8].

In 533 Justinian called Pope John II ".....head of all the churches." [Codex Iustianus I 1, 8. Corpus Irus Civilis, Berlin 1882, Vol. II, 11].

Pope Damasus [382]: ".....nevertheless the holy Roman Church has been set before the other churches not by any synodical decrees, but by the evangelical voice of the Lord and Savior, saying "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church......."[Epp. VII, 34. PL 77:893].

Pope Boniface [418-422] wrote to the bishops of Thessaly and said of the Roman church: "... this Roman church is to the Churches spread through the world, as it were, the head of it's own members, from which whoever cuts himself off is expelled from the Christian religion..." [PL. 20:777-79].

Brief, because I'm tired.

1.  It's Pope Cyril and Archbishop Celestine.  Otherwise, you are being anachronistic.

2. Many/most of your quotes have the pope of Rome or his entourage saying that he's the head.  Not terribly impressive.

One point: today the Vatican has her pope commemorated in the diptychs of every service no matter where in the world.  Any evidence of this in the first millennium?

No, it's Pope Celestine and Bishop Cyril. I even gave the primary source reference.  I don't know of any Pope Cyril. I can quote the east if you want. I've given the primary sources.
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« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2009, 05:09:41 AM »



One point: today the Vatican has her pope commemorated in the diptychs of every service no matter where in the world.  Any evidence of this in the first millennium?

Are you denying the popes were commeorated universally within the dyptichs of the first millenium?
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« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2009, 05:15:41 AM »

At the Council of Chalcedon, the Roman legate Paschasinus made the following statement:

"We have in our hands orders from the most blessed and apostolic pope of the city of Rome, which is head of all the churches......" [ACO II, Vol. 3, Pt. 1, 40].

Do you agree?


Yes, we agree that he made this statement in the name of the Pope.  Here it is in a fuller version:

"Paschasinus, the most reverend bishop and legate of the Apostolic See, stood up in the midst with his most reverend colleagues and said: We received directions at the hands of the most blessed and apostolic bishop of the Roman city [Pope Leo I], which is the head of all the churches, which directions say that Dioscorus is not to be allowed a seat in this assembly, but that if he should attempt to take his seat he is to be cast out. This instruction we must carry out; if now your holiness so commands let him be expelled or else we leave."

So what did the Council Fathers do?

They rejected the authority of the Pope.  They most certainly did not accept him as their head or the head of "all the churches."

How did they show this rejection of the Pope's claims?  They ignored the Pope's instructions not to allow Discorus to have a seat at the Council.

The Council Fathers gave Dioscorus a seat and allowed him to speak.

They refused to follow the Pope's instructions that he should be cast out if he attempted to speak.

Even the papal legates acted in a dishonest fashion.  After threatening to leave if Dioscorus was allowed to be there and to speak, they did not leave.

The whole incident is NOT proof of papal authority.  It is just the opposite.  It is proof that the Council Fathers did *not* see the Pope as having authority over them or over the activities of the Council.

A resounding and very public defeat for any claims of the Pope.   Roll Eyes



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« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2009, 05:27:14 AM »

Lets let the Lateran Council [649], Saint Maximus the Confessor and Saint Theodore the Studite explain this to us.

ignoring all context, let's not.

Nice art  Ukiemiester.  And since a picture is worth a thousand words, you've spared us.

Feel free to give us the context.
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« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2009, 05:27:54 AM »


First, who are you to say Saint Maximus the Confessor was wrong? You're supposed to believe him as an Orthodox Christian.

Second, Honorius was condemned for negligence, not heresy. Even Saint Maximus the Confessor spoke highly of Honorius.

From The Life of Our Holy Father St. Maximus the Confessor

The life of Saint Maximus is also instructive for us. Saint Maximus, though only a simple monk, resisted and cut off communion with every patriarch, metropolitan, archbishop and bishop in the East because of their having been infected with the heresy of Monothelitism. During the first imprisonment of the Saint, the messengers from the Ecumenical Patriarch asked him,

"To which church do you belong? To that of Byzantium, of Rome, Antioch,
Alexandria, or Jerusalem? For all these churches, together with the provinces
in subjection to them, are in unity. Therefore, if you also belong to the
Catholic Church, enter into communion with us at once, lest fashioning for
yourself some new and strange pathway, you fall into that which you do not even expect!"

To this the righteous man wisely replied, "Christ the Lord called that Church
the Catholic Church which maintains the true and saving confession of the Faith.
It was for this confession that He called Peter blessed, and He declared that
He would found His Church upon this confession
. However, I wish to
know the contents of your confession, on the basis of which all churches, as you say,
have entered into communion. If it is not opposed to the truth, then neither will
I be separated from it."



The confession which they were proposing to the Saint was not Orthodox, of course, and so he refused to comply with their coercions. Furthermore, they were lying about the See of Rome which, in fact, had remained Orthodox. Some time later, at his last interrogation by the Byzantine authorities, the following dialogue took place:

The Saint said, "They [the Patriarchs of Constantinople and Alexandria and
all the other heretical bishops of the East] have been deposed and deprived
of the priesthood at the local synod which took place recently in Rome.
What Mysteries, then, can they perform? Or what spirit will descend upon
those who are ordained by them?"

"Then you alone will be saved, and all others will perish?" they objected.

To this the Saint replied, "When all the people in Babylon were worshipping
the golden idol, the Three Holy Children did not condemn anyone to perdition.
They did not concern themselves with the doings of others, but took care
only for themselves, lest they should fall away from true piety. In precisely
the same way, when Daniel was cast into the lion's den, he did not condemn
any of those who, fulfilling the law of Darius, did not wish to pray to God,
but he kept in mind his own duty, and desired rather to die than to sin
against his conscience by transgressing the Law of God. God forbid that
I should condemn anyone or say that I alone am being saved! However,
I shall sooner agree to die than to apostatize in any way from the true Faith
and thereby suffer torments of conscience."

"But what will you do," inquired the envoys, "when the Romans are united to
the Byzantines?  Yesterday, indeed, two delegates arrived from Rome and
tomorrow, the Lord's day, they will communicate the Holy Mysteries with the Patriarch."

The Saint replied, "Even if the whole universe holds communion with the
Patriarch, I will not communicate with him. For I know from the writings of
the holy Apostle Paul: the Holy Spirit declares that even the angels would
be anathema if they should begin to preach another Gospel, introducing
some new teaching."


As history has demonstrated, Saint Maximus—who was only a simple monk and not even ordained—and his two disciples were the ones who were Orthodox, and all those illustrious, famous and influential Patriarchs and Metropolitans whom the Saint had written against were the ones who were in heresy.

When the Sixth Ecumenical Synod was finally convened, among those condemned for heresy were four Patriarchs of Constantinople, one Pope of Rome (for even Pope Honorius had fallen into the Monothelite heresy), one Patriarch of Alexandria, two Patriarchs of Antioch and a multitude of other Metropolitans, Archbishops and Bishops.  During all those years, that one simple monk was right, and all those notable bishops were wrong.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ecum_canons.aspx
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« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2009, 05:35:30 AM »


You can learn more about us here ( www.thegreekorthodoxchurch.com).

I'm not technically with them yet, but I am in spirit and faith -- hopefully.

Ok, I ask again what jurisdiction are you a part of? Are you a catechumen? Are you part of another Orthodox jurisdiction and desiring to change? Do you like them but there aren't any close enough to attend? And while I don't know much about the jurisdiction you feel connected to, I am fairly sure that they don't share your views on the Pope.
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« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2009, 05:37:31 AM »

David-what is the goal of this interchange? Do you desire clarity or do you desire to prove you are right even if you are wrong?
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« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2009, 05:39:43 AM »

With all due respect to the people who voted "no," they are clearly not educated in Church history. Here are a few examples from the pre-schism Church showing the popes to be head of the Church. I'm Orthodox and I'm an honest Orthodox. The facts are the facts.


Prosper [5th century] called the See of Peter the "head of the pastoral office for the world." [PL. 51:96].

Cyril of Alexandria [5th century] called Pope Celestine "archbishop of the entire habitable world." [PG 77: 1040].

In 450 the empreror Valentinian told Theodosius that the the bishop of Rome holds the principality of the priesthood over all." [Inter epp. S. Leonis, 55. PL 54:859].

David,

Where are you getting your quote mine from?

I have tried to track down the three quotes above and cannot find them.
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« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2009, 06:10:06 AM »

Ok, for the sake of argument let's say you are right (Although I am sure you are not).

What point is there in fighting for the authority of the Pope in the ancient church? The East and West split, there is no reason to argue for authority before the split-unless of course you are trying to argue for the current authority of the Pope over the Eastern church. Otherwise what is the point?
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« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2009, 06:14:41 AM »



David,

Where are you getting your quote mine from?

I have tried to track down the three quotes above and cannot find them.


You're not going to find this stuff online.
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« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2009, 06:18:19 AM »

IRISH STATED: Yes, we agree that he made this statement in the name of the Pope.  Here it is in a fuller version:

"Paschasinus, the most reverend bishop and legate of the Apostolic See, stood up in the midst with his most reverend colleagues and said: We received directions at the hands of the most blessed and apostolic bishop of the Roman city [Pope Leo I], which is the head of all the churches, which directions say that Dioscorus is not to be allowed a seat in this assembly, but that if he should attempt to take his seat he is to be cast out. This instruction we must carry out; if now your holiness so commands let him be expelled or else we leave."

MY RESPONSE: I didn't give the full quote due to time and space. I wanted to highlite the main section. But nothing in your un-referenced quote, contradicts my quote. "apostolic bishop of Rome [Pope Leo1), which is head of all the churches..." That's what I said. That's all I'm claiming in this thread. The popes were viewed as head of the Church. Your quote corroborates my own.

IRISH STATED: So what did the Council Fathers do?

They rejected the authority of the Pope.  They most certainly did not accept him as their head or the head of "all the churches."

MY RESPONSE: That is untrue. Later on Bishop Maximus of Antioch stated:

"Archbishop Flavian of holy memory expounded  the faith in an orthodox manner, and in agreement with the most blessed and most holy Archbishop Leo..." [ACO II, Vol. 3, Pt. 1, 94].

In the Second Session of Chalcedon (Oct. 10), Cecropius, bishop of  Sabastapolis, said:

"Regarding these matters, a decree [typos] has been given by the most holy archbishop of Rome, and we follow it, and all of us have subscribed to it." [ACO II, Vol. 1. Pt. 2, 78].

Florentius, bishop of Sardes stated:

"...the faith of the holy fathers, Cyril and Celestine, and the letter of the most holy Leo...we who have subscribed to the letter of the most holy Leo do not need correction." [ACO II, Vol. 1, Pt. 2, 78-9].

The bishops exclaimed:

"We so believe: pope Leo so believes: anathema to him who divides: this is the faith of Archbishop Leo: Leo so believes: Leo and Anatolius so believe: we all so believe: as Cyril believed, so do we believe: eternal memory to Cyril: as Cyril's letter has it, so do we think, so have we believed and so do we believe: Archbishop Leo so thinks, so believes, and so wrote." [ACO II, Vol. 1, Pt. 2, 81].

Later Leo's "Tomb" was read to the Fathers. The bishops exclaimed:

".......Peter has spoken these things through Leo. The apostles taught thus. Leo taught piously and truly...." [ACO II, Vol. 1, Pt. 2, 81].

The bishops latter stated:

" All of us believe as Leo does--thus do we believe. None of us doubts; we have already subscribed." [ACO II, Vol. 1, Pt. 2, 83].

Pope Leo is venerated as a saint by the Latin and Byzantine churches. The orthodox eastern church, whose tradition venerates his dogmatic tome as a "pillar of orthodoxy," commemorates St. Leo on February 18, eulogizing him in these terms:

"You have acted as heir of the throne of Peter, the coryphaeus...having his mind and...zeal for the faith...as the dawn...O thrice blessed one, you sent your tome of pious dogmas as rays of light to the Church...The successor of Peter, enriched with his presidency and possessed of the grace of his zeal, composes his tome, divinely moved...you wrote the teachings of religion as on tablets divinely engraved, appearing as a second Moses to the people and assembly of venerable teachers." [Menaion, Athens 1966-1980, February, 100-102].




IRISH STATED: How did they show this rejection of the Pope's claims?  They ignored the Pope's instructions not to allow Discorus to have a seat at the Council.

MY RESPONSE: That is not true. At the bidding of the commisioner, Dioscorus took the place of the accused, and Eusebius of Dorylaeum stood in the midst as his accuser, and said "I have been harmed by Dioscorus; the faith has been harmed. The holy bishop Flavian has been killed; I am with tears; he was unjustly condemned along with me." [ACO II, Vol. 3, Pt. 1, 41].



IRISH STATED: Even the papal legates acted in a dishonest fashion.  After threatening to leave if Dioscorus was allowed to be there and to speak, they did not leave.

MY RESPONSE: They didn't leave because Discorus was given the seat of the accused, as I stated above.

IRISH STATED: The whole incident is NOT proof of papal authority.  It is just the opposite.  It is proof that the Council Fathers did *not* see the Pope as having authority over them or over the activities of the Council.

MY RESPONSE: I don't think so. I can extensively elaborate on Pope Leo if you wish.
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« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2009, 06:40:50 AM »

IRISH STATED: Yes, we agree that he made this statement in the name of the Pope.  Here it is in a fuller version:

"Paschasinus, the most reverend bishop and legate of the Apostolic See, stood up in the midst with his most reverend colleagues and said: We received directions at the hands of the most blessed and apostolic bishop of the Roman city [Pope Leo I], which is the head of all the churches, which directions say that Dioscorus is not to be allowed a seat in this assembly, but that if he should attempt to take his seat he is to be cast out. This instruction we must carry out; if now your holiness so commands let him be expelled or else we leave."

MY RESPONSE: I didn't give the full quote due to time and space. I wanted to highlite the main section. But nothing in your un-referenced quote, contradicts my quote. "apostolic bishop of Rome [Pope Leo1), which is head of all the churches..." That's what I said. That's all I'm claiming in this thread. The popes were viewed as head of the Church. Your quote corroborates my own.

The action of the Bishops at the Council showed that they disregarded the commands of Pope Leo I not to allow Dioscorus to be seated and to speak at the Council.  I really do not see how that "corroborates" the contention that it proves the Pope was "head of all thje churches."  Strange head whom no one obeys!


Sorry not to give the refereence.

It is from the 1st session of the Acts of the Council.  You can read it here and you can read the bishops' rejection of the Pope's instructions.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xi.iii.html
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« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2009, 06:45:31 AM »


Irish, I would like to stay on topic, but let Saint Maximus speak for himself:

Saint Maximus the Confessor on the bishops of Rome

".....How much more is this the case with the Church and clergy of Rome, which from of old up to this time, as the eldest of all the churches under the sun, has the pre-eminence over all.. Having undoubtedly obtained this canonically, both from the councils and from the apostles as well as from their supreme principality, because of the eminence of her pontificate she is not bound to produce any writings of synodical letters, just as in these matters all are subject to her, in accordance with priestly law.........as firm ministers of the truly solid and immovable rock, that is, the greatest apostolic church....." [Mansi X, 677-8].


Saint Maximus also stated:

"....the Apostolic See, which from God the incarnate Word Himself as well as all the holy Councils, according to the sacred canons and definitions, has received and possesses supreme power in all things and for all things, over all the holy churches of God throughout the world, as well as power and authority of binding and loosing. For with this church, the Word, who commands the powers of heaven, binds and looses in heaven...."( PG 91: 144).

As for Pope Honorius,
 
Pope John the IV [640-642] wrote an "apology for Pope Honorius" [Mansi X, 683).
 
Saint MAXIMUS THE CONFESSOR adopted this defense of Pope Honroius. [PG 91: 328-9).
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« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2009, 06:47:27 AM »


Irish, I dirproved your assertion and I even supplied the sources.

In addition, you have failed to disprove all the sources I gave showing the popes were viewed as head of the Church. And there are many more.
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« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2009, 06:50:27 AM »

IRISH STATED: Yes, we agree that he made this statement in the name of the Pope.  Here it is in a fuller version:

"Paschasinus, the most reverend bishop and legate of the Apostolic See, stood up in the midst with his most reverend colleagues and said: We received directions at the hands of the most blessed and apostolic bishop of the Roman city [Pope Leo I], which is the head of all the churches, which directions say that Dioscorus is not to be allowed a seat in this assembly, but that if he should attempt to take his seat he is to be cast out. This instruction we must carry out; if now your holiness so commands let him be expelled or else we leave."

MY RESPONSE: I didn't give the full quote due to time and space. I wanted to highlite the main section. But nothing in your un-referenced quote, contradicts my quote. "apostolic bishop of Rome [Pope Leo1), which is head of all the churches..." That's what I said. That's all I'm claiming in this thread. The popes were viewed as head of the Church. Your quote corroborates my own.

IRISH STATED: So what did the Council Fathers do?

They rejected the authority of the Pope.  They most certainly did not accept him as their head or the head of "all the churches."

MY RESPONSE: That is untrue. Later on Bishop Maximus of Antioch stated:

"Archbishop Flavian of holy memory expounded  the faith in an orthodox manner, and in agreement with the most blessed and most holy Archbishop Leo..." [ACO II, Vol. 3, Pt. 1, 94].

In the Second Session of Chalcedon (Oct. 10), Cecropius, bishop of  Sabastapolis, said:

"Regarding these matters, a decree [typos] has been given by the most holy archbishop of Rome, and we follow it, and all of us have subscribed to it." [ACO II, Vol. 1. Pt. 2, 78].

Florentius, bishop of Sardes stated:

"...the faith of the holy fathers, Cyril and Celestine, and the letter of the most holy Leo...we who have subscribed to the letter of the most holy Leo do not need correction." [ACO II, Vol. 1, Pt. 2, 78-9].

The bishops exclaimed:

"We so believe: pope Leo so believes: anathema to him who divides: this is the faith of Archbishop Leo: Leo so believes: Leo and Anatolius so believe: we all so believe: as Cyril believed, so do we believe: eternal memory to Cyril: as Cyril's letter has it, so do we think, so have we believed and so do we believe: Archbishop Leo so thinks, so believes, and so wrote." [ACO II, Vol. 1, Pt. 2, 81].

Later Leo's "Tomb" was read to the Fathers. The bishops exclaimed:

".......Peter has spoken these things through Leo. The apostles taught thus. Leo taught piously and truly...." [ACO II, Vol. 1, Pt. 2, 81].

The bishops latter stated:

" All of us believe as Leo does--thus do we believe. None of us doubts; we have already subscribed." [ACO II, Vol. 1, Pt. 2, 83].

Pope Leo is venerated as a saint by the Latin and Byzantine churches. The orthodox eastern church, whose tradition venerates his dogmatic tome as a "pillar of orthodoxy," commemorates St. Leo on February 18, eulogizing him in these terms:

"You have acted as heir of the throne of Peter, the coryphaeus...having his mind and...zeal for the faith...as the dawn...O thrice blessed one, you sent your tome of pious dogmas as rays of light to the Church...The successor of Peter, enriched with his presidency and possessed of the grace of his zeal, composes his tome, divinely moved...you wrote the teachings of religion as on tablets divinely engraved, appearing as a second Moses to the people and assembly of venerable teachers." [Menaion, Athens 1966-1980, February, 100-102].




IRISH STATED: How did they show this rejection of the Pope's claims?  They ignored the Pope's instructions not to allow Discorus to have a seat at the Council.

MY RESPONSE: That is not true. At the bidding of the commisioner, Dioscorus took the place of the accused, and Eusebius of Dorylaeum stood in the midst as his accuser, and said "I have been harmed by Dioscorus; the faith has been harmed. The holy bishop Flavian has been killed; I am with tears; he was unjustly condemned along with me." [ACO II, Vol. 3, Pt. 1, 41].



IRISH STATED: Even the papal legates acted in a dishonest fashion.  After threatening to leave if Dioscorus was allowed to be there and to speak, they did not leave.

MY RESPONSE: They didn't leave because Discorus was given the seat of the accused, as I stated above.

IRISH STATED: The whole incident is NOT proof of papal authority.  It is just the opposite.  It is proof that the Council Fathers did *not* see the Pope as having authority over them or over the activities of the Council.

MY RESPONSE: I don't think so. I can extensively elaborate on Pope Leo if you wish.

As for the other quotes concerning Pope Leo, they concern his Tome and not what Paschasinus said about Dioscorus.   Of course the Bishops at the Council agree with these words of the Pope.  They were a full expresion of the orthodox faith.

There is one point to note about it though.  They did NOT accept the Tome because it came from Rome.  They read it.  They scrutinised it.  And THEY made the decision that it was consonant with the true faith.  Can you imagine a Pope's "infallible" statement being subject to such investigation by a Roman Catholic Council today?  No, my friend, we are speaking of two different eras - the antique times when the place of Rome was correctly and truly understood by the Church, and the modern era when it has boldly and sinfully arrogated to itself a position God never intended for any bishop nor for any Church.
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« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2009, 06:54:37 AM »



David,

Where are you getting your quote mine from?

I have tried to track down the three quotes above and cannot find them.


You're not going to find this stuff online.

This is where your credibility starts to slip.

These quotes are such great support for the modern claims of the papacy that every Catholic apologist would have them displayed and highlighted on his website.   WHY aren't they being used by Rome to support its position?
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« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2009, 06:56:05 AM »



It is from the 1st session of the Acts of the Council.  You can read it here and you can read the bishops' rejection of the Pope's instructions.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xi.iii.html


I didn't see it in that link. But you might be missing the forest for the trees. From that link:

" And he dared to hold a synod without the authority of the Apostolic See, a thing which had never taken place nor can take place."

Sounds like papal jurisdictional primacy to me.
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« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2009, 06:57:45 AM »

I second Quinault's question.  Point?
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« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2009, 06:59:17 AM »


These quotes are such great support for the modern claims of the papacy that every Catholic apologist would have them displayed and highlighted on his website.   WHY aren't they being used by Rome to support its position?

Because I am one of only a few people in the world that have access to this kind of primary source material. Believe it or not. I don't care.
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« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2009, 07:00:35 AM »


Irish,

tomorrow I want to focus on Pope Leo and his supremacy. I already gave some quotes. Lets deal with one thing at a time.
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« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2009, 07:04:59 AM »


Irish, I dirproved your assertion and I even supplied the sources.

In addition, you have failed to disprove all the sources I gave showing the popes were viewed as head of the Church. And there are many more.

David,

Answer me this.

From the 5th century the laws governing marriage and diviorce and sacramental second were codified in the Catholic Church of the East.  This Eastern section of the Church even included the Byzantine provinces of southern Italy, taking the authority of the Patriarch of Constanstinople right up to the gates of Rome.

Now, if the Pope were truly head of the Church, the only conclusion is that from the 5th century onwards he gave his apostolic blessing to divorce and sacramental second marriage.  He gave his blessing for this in the greater part of the Church which he headed since the Eastern section of the Catholic Church was more populous than the Western.  This continued up to 1054 when the Catholic Church of the East split with Catholic Rome.

So, is it true?  The Pope allowed divorce and remarriage in his Church, and moreover in the larger part of his church, for 600 years? 
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« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2009, 07:07:24 AM »


These quotes are such great support for the modern claims of the papacy that every Catholic apologist would have them displayed and highlighted on his website.   WHY aren't they being used by Rome to support its position?

Because I am one of only a few people in the world that have access to this kind of primary source material. Believe it or not. I don't care.

Well, you should care.  If you have integrity, you should have made this material available to the Roman Church authorities and not be messing around and playing games with it on a mere internet forum.
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« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2009, 07:10:10 AM »


David,

Answer me this.

From the 5th century the laws governing marriage and diviorce and sacramental second were codified in the Catholic Church of the East.  This Eastern section of the Church even included the Byzantine provinces of southern Italy, taking the authority of the Patriarch of Constanstinople right up to the gates of Rome.

I don't agree with that. The popes even appointed papal vicars in the east who were stationoned in Thessalonica. But I don't know anything about marriage and divorce laws at that time.

Now, if the Pope were truly head of the Church, the only conclusion is that from the 5th century onwards he gave his apostolic blessing to divorce and sacramental second marriage.  He gave his blessing for this in the greater part of the Church which he headed since the Eastern section of the Catholic Church was more populous than the Western.  This continued up to 1054 when the Catholic Church of the East split with Catholic Rome.

So, is it true?  The Pope allowed divorce and remarriage in his Church, and moreover in the larger part of his church, for 600 years? 

I can't answer that. Do you have a source showing divorce was permitted in the east at that time? Thank you.
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« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2009, 07:11:30 AM »


Well, you should care.  If you have integrity, you should have made this material available to the Roman Church authorities and not be messing around and playing games with it on a mere internet forum.

The author of the book is too poor to get it published. He's working on it.
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« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2009, 07:19:01 AM »


Irish, I would like to stay on topic, but let Saint Maximus speak for himself:

 
Pope John the IV [640-642] wrote an "apology for Pope Honorius" [Mansi X, 683).
 
Saint MAXIMUS THE CONFESSOR adopted this defense of Pope Honroius. [PG 91: 328-9).

Saint Maximus was in a tight spot. Three Catholic Patriarchs of the East (Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria) had fallen in with the monothelite heresy. Saint Maximus was so upset that he went and made his residence in Rome. He pinned all his hope on Rome upholding and restoring orthodoxy. But eventually even the Pope of Rome, Pope Honorius, succumbed to the monothelite heresy. So there was a time when four of the five Patriarchs (excluding Jerusalem) were heretical (Catholics shudder to hear that Honorius was a heretic but even the staunchly pro-papal Catholic Encyclopedia says,

"It is clear that no Catholic has the right to defend Pope Honorius. He was a heretic, not in intention, but in fact..."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07452b.htm
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« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2009, 07:21:07 AM »


Well, you should care.  If you have integrity, you should have made this material available to the Roman Church authorities and not be messing around and playing games with it on a mere internet forum.

The author of the book is too poor to get it published. He's working on it.

If this person is in possession of a whole raft of hitherto unknown patristic writings supporting papal claims, tell him to get in touch with Rome.  The Vatican will shower him with gratitude and he will never have to worry about money again.   Grin
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« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2009, 07:25:59 AM »


David,

Answer me this.

From the 5th century the laws governing marriage and diviorce and sacramental second were codified in the Catholic Church of the East.  This Eastern section of the Church even included the Byzantine provinces of southern Italy, taking the authority of the Patriarch of Constanstinople right up to the gates of Rome.

I don't agree with that. The popes even appointed papal vicars in the east who were stationoned in Thessalonica.

May we dispute that?  Don't you know that for centuries, up until the Normans began to have a major influence in the Western Church, the Archbishops (Popes) of Rome were appointed by the Emperors from Constantinople and often had to pay the Emperors a huge sum for their appointment.    At one time they were even obliged to be subject to the Byzantine Exarch at Ravenna Italy.
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« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2009, 07:30:30 AM »



It is from the 1st session of the Acts of the Council.  You can read it here and you can read the bishops' rejection of the Pope's instructions.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xi.iii.html


I didn't see it in that link. But you might be missing the forest for the trees. From that link:

" And he dared to hold a synod without the authority of the Apostolic See, a thing which had never taken place nor can take place."

Sounds like papal jurisdictional primacy to me.

Please note that this was said by Lucentius.  Just another Roman legate at the Council.  Naturally he was upholding the authority of his master in Rome.  But the Council Fathers rejected that authority over themselves.
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« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2009, 08:21:16 AM »


These quotes are such great support for the modern claims of the papacy that every Catholic apologist would have them displayed and highlighted on his website.   WHY aren't they being used by Rome to support its position?

Because I am one of only a few people in the world that have access to this kind of primary source material. Believe it or not. I don't care.

LOL! Dude you have got to be kidding?? With the amount of ancient texts the RC & Orthodox Churches have your telling us YOU have these secret texts hidden away??
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« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2009, 08:24:52 AM »


Well, you should care.  If you have integrity, you should have made this material available to the Roman Church authorities and not be messing around and playing games with it on a mere internet forum.

The author of the book is too poor to get it published. He's working on it.

If this material was real and your "friend" showed it to the RC Church they would pay any and all expenses to get it published. The fact that he is only "working on it" tells me a lot.
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« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2009, 08:37:29 AM »

May we dispute that?  Don't you know that for centuries, up until the Normans began to have a major influence in the Western Church, the Archbishops (Popes) of Rome were appointed by the Emperors from Constantinople and often had to pay the Emperors a huge sum for their appointment.    At one time they were even obliged to be subject to the Byzantine Exarch at Ravenna Italy.

For several hundred years secular rulers appointed the Pope of Rome. The Eastern Emperor did this directly and, sometimes, through the Exarch at Ravenna. The Pope also had to pay a considerable sum of money to the Emperor as a "thank you."

The Emperor had not just a right of veto but of outright appointment. Just start reading some of the lives of the Popes.

Moving back into the period when East and West were united...

"In these earlier centuries of the Byzantine Empire, the problem of ecclesiastical polity (government of the church) was rather complex.

"Complicating matters was the fact that the Pope of Rome was subordinate politically to the Byzantine Emperor, who sat in Constantinople. Up until the eighth century (as is usually not noted) the pope was in fact even appointed by the Emperor or, more directly, through his civil governor in [Ravenna] Italy."


http://archons.org/patriarchate/history/pentarchy.asp
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« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2009, 09:13:23 AM »


These quotes are such great support for the modern claims of the papacy that every Catholic apologist would have them displayed and highlighted on his website.   WHY aren't they being used by Rome to support its position?

Because I am one of only a few people in the world that have access to this kind of primary source material. Believe it or not. I don't care.

LOL! Dude you have got to be kidding?? With the amount of ancient texts the RC & Orthodox Churches have your telling us YOU have these secret texts hidden away??

Yes, with the Original Donation of Constantine. LOL.
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« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2009, 09:19:47 AM »


You can learn more about us here ( www.thegreekorthodoxchurch.com).

I'm not technically with them yet, but I am in spirit and faith -- hopefully.
What a remarkable coincidence. Our site and forum owner is a priest of the church you claim to be "fully Orthodox" in. I'm certain he will appreciate your participation here and, lucky for you, you should feel right at home.

BTW, what does "fully Orthodox" mean? One either is Orthodox or one is not.
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« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2009, 09:28:55 AM »

No, it's Pope Celestine and Bishop Cyril. I even gave the primary source reference.  I don't know of any Pope Cyril. I can quote the east if you want. I've given the primary sources.

You will have to give it in the primary language (I'm quite used to Vatican supporters translating "episcopos" as "pope." when refering to the patriarch of Rome).  The patriarch of Alexandria RECEIVED the title Pope in the 3rd cent., Rome TOOK it centuries later.  So, if you are during history, like I said Pope Cyril and Archbishop Celestine.



One point: today the Vatican has her pope commemorated in the diptychs of every service no matter where in the world.  Any evidence of this in the first millennium?

Are you denying the popes were commeorated universally within the dyptichs of the first millenium?

Only by the Patriarchs at their DL, not the DL of the average parish.
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« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2009, 11:06:45 AM »


What is a "Kiousis synod?"

That is an overly familiar way of referring to the Greek Old Calendarist Church of Archbishop Chrysostomos II (Kiousis), of which yours truly is a priest.

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« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2009, 11:07:35 AM »


I'm not technically with them yet, but I am in spirit and faith -- hopefully.

You're not quite there yet.
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« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2009, 11:13:08 AM »

What is a "Kiousis synod?"

The Kiousis synod is one of the various schismatic Greek Old Calendarist groups.

While you are entitled to your opinion, just as we have rules against Eastern Orthodox and Non-Chalcedonians labelling each other schismatics and heretics in the public forum, we also have similar rules against New and Old Calendarists labelling each other schismatics in the public forum.  It opens up all sorts of unwanted passionate debate and endless circles of go-around.  A better way to phrase your statement would have been to say, "one of the Old Calendarist Churches considered schismatic by the standard/mainstream Church of Greece."

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« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2009, 11:15:18 AM »


These quotes are such great support for the modern claims of the papacy that every Catholic apologist would have them displayed and highlighted on his website.   WHY aren't they being used by Rome to support its position?

Because I am one of only a few people in the world that have access to this kind of primary source material. Believe it or not. I don't care.

This is a discussion forum, not a place to taunt people with your supposed secret knowledge.

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« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2009, 11:20:24 AM »


These quotes are such great support for the modern claims of the papacy that every Catholic apologist would have them displayed and highlighted on his website.   WHY aren't they being used by Rome to support its position?

Because I am one of only a few people in the world that have access to this kind of primary source material. Believe it or not. I don't care.

This is a discussion forum, not a place to taunt people with your supposed secret knowledge.

Fr Anastasios


I have a picture of "David" in my mind sitting in a cave on top of a mountain with piles of ancient secrete manuscripts around him and typing feversly on his keyboard. This same cave is home to the Yeti and Unicorns!!  Shocked
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« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2009, 11:24:53 AM »


Quote
Second, Honorius was condemned for negligence, not heresy.

This just reeks of Vatican double speak.  Please don't dishonor the Old Calendarists.

THANK YOU.
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« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2009, 01:52:45 PM »

Second, Honorius was condemned for negligence, not heresy. ?

Dear David,

Your claim to have access to all this secret knowledge rings hollow when you seem unaware of even the public evidence available.

Let's look at the position of Pope Honorius...

Can you know more than the Popes and the Councils and the major churchmen who lived at the time of Honorius? They judged him a heretic.

14 Reasons to call Honorius a Heretic

1. His condemnation is found in the Acts of the 13th Session of the 6th Ecumenical Council.

2. His two letters in favour of monothelitism were ordered to be burned at the same Session.

3. In the 17th session of the 6th Ecumenical Council, the Council Fathers proclaimed:

"Anathema to the heretic Sergius, to the heretic Cyrus, to the heretic Honorius,..."

The above really clinches it, unless one wants to argue that an Ecumenical Council and the Popes who ratified them may err but in that case the burden of proof is on the person who opposes the Council and the papal ratification.   

4. In the decree of faith published at the 17th Session it is stated that "the originator of all evil the Devil...found a fit tool for his will in...Honorius, Pope of Old Rome..."

5. The report of the Council to the Emperor says that "Honorius,
formerly bishop of Rome" they had "punished with exclusion and
anathema" because he followed the monothelites.

6. In its letter to Pope Agatho the Council says it "has slain Honorius with an anathema"

7. The imperial decree speaks of the "unholy priests who infected the Church and falsely governed" and mentions among them "Honorius, the Pope of Old Rome, the confirmer of heresy who contradicted himself."

The Emperor goes on to anathematize "Honorius who was Pope of Old Rome, who in everything agreed with them, went with them, and strengthened the heresy."

8. Pope Leo II confirmed the decrees of the Council and expressly says that he too anathematized Honorius.

9. That Honorius was anathematized by the Sixth Council is
mentioned in the Trullan Canons.

10. So too the Seventh Council declares its adhesion to the
anathema in its decree of faith, and in several places in the acts
the same is said.

11. Honorius's name was found in the Roman copy of the Acts. This is evident from Anastasius's life of Leo II. (Vita Leonis II.)

12. The Papal Oath as found in the Liber Diurnus taken by each new Pope from the fifth to the eleventh centuries, in the form probably prescribed by Gregory II:

"smites with eternal anathema the originators of the new heresy, Sergius, together with Honorius because he assisted the base assertion of the heretics."

13. In the lesson for the feast of St. Leo II. in the Roman Breviary the name of Pope Honorius occurs among those excommunicated by the Sixth Synod. This inconvenient reference to Honorius was removed before the definition of papal infallibility.

14. The Catholic Encylopedia says that no Catholic may deny that Pope Honorius was a heretic.

With such an array of proof no conservative historian, it would seem, can question the fact that Honorius, the Pope of Rome, was condemned and anathematized as a heretic by the Sixth Ecumenical Council and that the Popes after him used their authority to uphold the decision against him.
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« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2009, 02:06:09 PM »

Irish Hermit----please post the source for your above quote. I happen to know it is pg. 351-352 from Vol. XIV of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, but an electronic link to the proper ccel page is appropriate for forum source listing rules.

Thnaks!

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« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2009, 02:39:57 PM »

Irish Hermit----please post the source for your above quote. I happen to know it is pg. 351-352 from Vol. XIV of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, but an electronic link to the proper ccel page is appropriate for forum source listing rules.

Thnaks!

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This was a summary of several posts which I made up and posted years ago to Catholic Answers Forum in the course of many debates on Pope Honorius.  I searched for the individual posts but did not find them on CAF.  They are spread across several posts.  More than likely CAF deleted them;  they deleted around 17,500 of my posts.  The fact that they missed the above was a big surprise.  I was quite pleased that I found the the various quotes in the complete version. 

I suppose that you are asking for clickable references?   Any help that you and others can provide would be much appreciated.  The quotes are certainly more effective when people can go "click" and there it is..    However if you look at my message you will see that in point of fact the references ARE there for what I wrote - I have given the references to the Sessions and Acts of the Councils etc., but people these days are rather lazy and don't want to go to the books and look them up.  They think that everything should be just a cyber click away.  I am one of the ancients who prefer real books.    So any help in finding the clickable references is truly appreciated.

David also provided "real" references and not clickable ones.  His, on the whole, are pretty much impossible to locate since they seem to be in books unknown to the rest of the world.  Smiley
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« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2009, 02:52:33 PM »

Irish Hermit----please post the source for your above quote. I happen to know it is pg. 351-352 from Vol. XIV of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, but an electronic link to the proper ccel page is appropriate for forum source listing rules.

Thnaks!

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I tried to find the Rules so that I won't make mistakes in the future and I just referenced the Rules by using the "Rules" link at the top of the page but I did not see anything about source listing rules.  Is there an expanded version of the Rules and where may I read it them please.

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« Reply #75 on: March 04, 2009, 03:28:58 PM »

Father,

Irish Hermit----please post the source for your above quote. I happen to know it is pg. 351-352 from Vol. XIV of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, but an electronic link to the proper ccel page is appropriate for forum source listing rules.

Thnaks!

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I tried to find the Rules so that I won't make mistakes in the future and I just referenced the Rules by using the "Rules" link at the top of the page but I did not see anything about source listing rules.  Is there an expanded version of the Rules and where may I read it them please.

His reference is to two things:
1. Protecting you (and the forum) from plagiarism & accused plagiarism.
2. Sometimes a moderator will make a formal request for sources, in order to back up claims made by the user and keep the flow of discussion.  It is referenced here:

Being asked to provide clarification, references, or "proof" by a moderator in an official manner:

Occasionally a moderator will make a formal request (i.e. in a colored font, or whatnot, explicitly stating that they're asking as a mod and not a user) for clarification of a point, references to support a point, or "proof" of an assertion made in the course of discussion.  Sometimes this request will come with a "time limit" or other stipulation requesting expediency.  These requests are made in order to facilitate open and honest discussion, without knowingly or unknowingly propagating false information.  Do not be offended by such requests, but do make all haste in fulfilling them, in order to allow productive and edifying discussion to continue.

I think our founder and Administrator explains this best:


We are just trying to meet our responsibility of fairness and remember we will all face the ultimate judge, Christ himself. We really want to make sure that our site is not responsible for advertising mistruth whenever possible. No one on our moderation team is assuming anything you have said is not true. It is just confusing to try and figure out all the details and we are trying to be cautious. This is how Orthodox people are supposed to take all things, with a discerning spirit. Thank you for your understanding. We value your input on this site.

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In your case, he's figuring you've used sources, so he's asking for the references to keep the discussion moving (i.e. so people don't just assume you've made things up), and to keep everyone's character unsoiled (by accusations or whatnot).
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« Reply #76 on: March 04, 2009, 03:51:51 PM »



David,

Where are you getting your quote mine from?

I have tried to track down the three quotes above and cannot find them.


You're not going to find this stuff online.

You can't believe a tenth of what you read on the internet.

So if you can't find it online, it's credibility has to be worse.



David,

Where are you getting your quote mine from?

I have tried to track down the three quotes above and cannot find them.


You're not going to find this stuff online.

This is where your credibility starts to slip.

These quotes are such great support for the modern claims of the papacy that every Catholic apologist would have them displayed and highlighted on his website.   WHY aren't they being used by Rome to support its position?

Father, didn't we deal with this type of stuff on CAF, with the "quote" of St. Methodius on the supremacy of the pope of Rome?


These quotes are such great support for the modern claims of the papacy that every Catholic apologist would have them displayed and highlighted on his website.   WHY aren't they being used by Rome to support its position?

Because I am one of only a few people in the world that have access to this kind of primary source material. Believe it or not. I don't care.
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« Reply #77 on: March 04, 2009, 04:01:50 PM »


David,

Answer me this.

From the 5th century the laws governing marriage and diviorce and sacramental second were codified in the Catholic Church of the East.  This Eastern section of the Church even included the Byzantine provinces of southern Italy, taking the authority of the Patriarch of Constanstinople right up to the gates of Rome.

I don't agree with that.
So?  Your point?
Quote
The popes even appointed papal vicars in the east who were stationoned in Thessalonica.

They were called apocrisiari, and every patriarch had them, along with the embassy Church (the Vatican calls them titular churches now).  Patriarch Antolius of Constantinople, for instance, started as the apocrisiarius of Pope Dioscorus of Alexandria to New Rome.  St. Peter's in the Vatican, is the metochia of Constantinople.

Quote
But I don't know anything about marriage and divorce laws at that time.

So you are talking about something you admit you don't know.

Now, if the Pope were truly head of the Church, the only conclusion is that from the 5th century onwards he gave his apostolic blessing to divorce and sacramental second marriage.  He gave his blessing for this in the greater part of the Church which he headed since the Eastern section of the Catholic Church was more populous than the Western.  This continued up to 1054 when the Catholic Church of the East split with Catholic Rome.

So, is it true?  The Pope allowed divorce and remarriage in his Church, and moreover in the larger part of his church, for 600 years? 

Quote
I can't answer that. Do you have a source showing divorce was permitted in the east at that time? Thank you.
I'll let Father respond.
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« Reply #78 on: March 04, 2009, 04:07:14 PM »

Folks, this is not the first time I've read on an Internet forum a supposedly Orthodox poster claim that he has read a 'secret, not yet published' monograph proving these papal claims. In fact, this instance is exactly what I've seen before. It strains credulity to assert with today's available technology (almost free Internet publishing avenues) and very cheap personal publishing options (such as Lulu Press) that any worthy work cannot be disseminated.
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« Reply #79 on: March 04, 2009, 04:27:13 PM »


These quotes are such great support for the modern claims of the papacy that every Catholic apologist would have them displayed and highlighted on his website.   WHY aren't they being used by Rome to support its position?

Because I am one of only a few people in the world that have access to this kind of primary source material. Believe it or not. I don't care. 

You have read what Christ has to say about hiding light, right?  If it's the truth, it either has been revealed or it must be revealed; take your pick.  If you indeed have primary source material that supports your position, then you do harm to the Church by hiding it.  If you do not have the material, or if your material is of dubious origin or outright false pretense, then you are doing harm to other Christians by questioning their faith and parading around what to them may seem to be "convincing evidence."

My finely training milarkey detector (my probiscus) has just set off an alarm.

LOL.  It seems quite a few folks, appendages or not, have had similar alarms going off.
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« Reply #80 on: March 04, 2009, 05:38:54 PM »


Irish, I would like to stay on topic, but let Saint Maximus speak for himself:

 
Pope John the IV [640-642] wrote an "apology for Pope Honorius" [Mansi X, 683).
 
Saint MAXIMUS THE CONFESSOR adopted this defense of Pope Honroius. [PG 91: 328-9).

Saint Maximus was in a tight spot. Three Catholic Patriarchs of the East (Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria) had fallen in with the monothelite heresy. Saint Maximus was so upset that he went and made his residence in Rome. He pinned all his hope on Rome upholding and restoring orthodoxy. But eventually even the Pope of Rome, Pope Honorius, succumbed to the monothelite heresy. So there was a time when four of the five Patriarchs (excluding Jerusalem) were heretical (Catholics shudder to hear that Honorius was a heretic but even the staunchly pro-papal Catholic Encyclopedia says,

"It is clear that no Catholic has the right to defend Pope Honorius. He was a heretic, not in intention, but in fact..."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07452b.htm

That is not true whatsoever.  Keep in mind that the Freemasons have been trying to discret the Catholic Church for decades. They started to infiltrate the Church in the 1930's. You have to be very carefull what you read. Just listen to the fathers.

Saint Maximus defended Honorius, as I already referenced. Second, Honorius was condemned for NEGLIGENCE. He did not take a position. Third, long after this event, the church at Rome was considered pure all the way up to the 7th Ecumenical Council. It had never fallen into error or heresy. I have all the citations proving this. But this was just a quick response.
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« Reply #81 on: March 04, 2009, 05:40:23 PM »

Folks, this is not the first time I've read on an Internet forum a supposedly Orthodox poster claim that he has read a 'secret, not yet published' monograph proving these papal claims. In fact, this instance is exactly what I've seen before. It strains credulity to assert with today's available technology (almost free Internet publishing avenues) and very cheap personal publishing options (such as Lulu Press) that any worthy work cannot be disseminated.
My finely training milarkey detector (my probiscus) has just set off an alarm.

Oh get over it! I have given the PRIMARY SOURCES supporting my quotes. Dig them up and disprove them if you think you can.
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« Reply #82 on: March 04, 2009, 05:43:15 PM »


IRISH,

if you want to debate Pope Honorius perhaps you can open a new thread on this subject alone. If you do this, let me know. Make your case agaisnt him and I'll give my response.
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« Reply #83 on: March 04, 2009, 05:44:51 PM »

I have a secret manuscript that says my cat is actually the right and worthy leader of the entire free world. Really! He showed it to me!

(I don't mean to derail the thread, but this "secret" documentation stuff is just insulting. If you mods feel this needs to be deleted I will understand)
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« Reply #84 on: March 04, 2009, 05:47:07 PM »


These aren't secret manuscripts. They have been known to the Church for 2,000 years. They might seem secret to you because you don't deal with primary sources. And you don't deal on a scholarly level.
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« Reply #85 on: March 04, 2009, 05:49:52 PM »

So then where are these "primary sources?" I can say that my cat is leader of the world. But it doesn't mean anything if all I have is my word that I have the document in hand. You need more than illusions to it existing to be believable.

Again, I ask- What is your point? If you think that you should be in communion with the Pope become an Eastern Catholic.
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« Reply #86 on: March 04, 2009, 05:52:01 PM »


These aren't secret manuscripts. They have been known to the Church for 2,000 years. They might seem secret to you because you don't deal with primary sources. And you don't deal on a scholarly level.

And absolutely no scholarly people would ever allow sources (primary or otherwise) to be used in a debate without BOTH sides seeing these sources! It just never happens in any true academic setting, so stop pretending what your doing is scholarly!  
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« Reply #87 on: March 04, 2009, 05:55:10 PM »

As I said before-

Ok, for the sake of argument let's say you are right (Although I am sure you are not).

What point is there in fighting for the authority of the Pope in the ancient church? The East and West split, there is no reason to argue for authority before the split-unless of course you are trying to argue for the current authority of the Pope over the Eastern church. Otherwise what is the point?
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« Reply #88 on: March 04, 2009, 06:06:47 PM »


These aren't secret manuscripts. They have been known to the Church for 2,000 years. They might seem secret to you because you don't deal with primary sources. And you don't deal on a scholarly level.

And your proof of this being?  There is no need for ad hominems; further use of them will be dealt with more severely.

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« Reply #89 on: March 04, 2009, 06:12:56 PM »


That is not true whatsoever.  Keep in mind that the Freemasons have been trying to discret the Catholic Church for decades. They started to infiltrate the Church in the 1930's. You have to be very carefull what you read. Just listen to the fathers.

The Catholic Encyclopedia quoted and linked to above has a copyright date of 1917.
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« Reply #90 on: March 04, 2009, 06:15:03 PM »

I think our founder and Administrator explains this best:


We are just trying to meet our responsibility of fairness and remember we will all face the ultimate judge, Christ himself. We really want to make sure that our site is not responsible for advertising mistruth whenever possible. No one on our moderation team is assuming anything you have said is not true. It is just confusing to try and figure out all the details and we are trying to be cautious. This is how Orthodox people are supposed to take all things, with a discerning spirit. Thank you for your understanding. We value your input on this site.

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In your case, he's figuring you've used sources, so he's asking for the references to keep the discussion moving (i.e. so people don't just assume you've made things up), and to keep everyone's character unsoiled (by accusations or whatnot).

Dear Cleveland,

if you examine each item you will find the source is posted.   But it is not a clickable source.  I am not sure but it seems to be a requirement that references to the Acts of a Council or to books are not acceptable,.  It must be a clickable source?  I.e., something on the Internet?  If that is the Forum rule I shall of course abide by it but it does cut out a lot of material out.
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« Reply #91 on: March 04, 2009, 06:20:10 PM »


IRISH,

if you want to debate Pope Honorius perhaps you can open a new thread on this subject alone. If you do this, let me know. Make your case agaisnt him and I'll give my response.

Thanks but after all the years on CAF I am honoriused out. Grin

But why start a new thread?   The title is ".... and the Pope" and you yourself have introduced the names of multiple popes.
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« Reply #92 on: March 04, 2009, 06:20:25 PM »


Fr Ambrose,

No it's fine, if you are typing something out of a book then the book citation is fine.

Fr Chris just assumed you were copy pasting from another website.

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #93 on: March 04, 2009, 06:20:41 PM »

Christian Classics Ethereal Library

http://www.ccel.org/

Would this help? Then next time you can copy and paste rather than type it all out Fr. Ambrose.
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« Reply #94 on: March 04, 2009, 06:25:29 PM »

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xiii.xiii.html#xiii.xiii-Page_351

Excursus on the Condemnation of Pope Honorius.


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« Reply #95 on: March 04, 2009, 06:26:29 PM »


Fr Ambrose,

No it's fine, if you are typing something out of a book then the book citation is fine.

Fr Chris just assumed you were copy pasting from another website.

Fr Anastasios


Father, I wrote the Honorius material quite a few years ago on CAF.  It is all accurate.  It was a final (and kind of definitive) compilation from several of my posts on CAF with material taken from all over the place.  Apart from the internal references for the quotes which would involve reading the Acts of the Council, I don't temember which bits were taken from sites such as CCEL and other bits from books on the shelves. 
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« Reply #96 on: March 04, 2009, 06:30:52 PM »

Dear Fr Ambrose,

I am sure it is accurate. Just wanted to know where it came from to help other posters who need to use the citation. Quinault has located the citation. Thanks Quinault!

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #97 on: March 04, 2009, 06:38:13 PM »

I'm curious to know what these primary sources David Newman has. Primary Sources of 1000 year old quotes that no one else has access to is rather impressive.
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« Reply #98 on: March 04, 2009, 06:38:42 PM »

Folks, this is not the first time I've read on an Internet forum a supposedly Orthodox poster claim that he has read a 'secret, not yet published' monograph proving these papal claims. In fact, this instance is exactly what I've seen before. It strains credulity to assert with today's available technology (almost free Internet publishing avenues) and very cheap personal publishing options (such as Lulu Press) that any worthy work cannot be disseminated.
My finely training milarkey detector (my probiscus) has just set off an alarm.

Oh get over it! I have given the PRIMARY SOURCES supporting my quotes. Dig them up and disprove them if you think you can.

I'm totally using that line on my next history paper!
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« Reply #99 on: March 04, 2009, 06:45:36 PM »

David,

Please provide these sources and where they can be found. While you are at it, please PM me and let me know if you have already signed up for this forum under another name as I requested earlier today.

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« Reply #100 on: March 04, 2009, 06:55:03 PM »


These aren't secret manuscripts. They have been known to the Church for 2,000 years. They might seem secret to you because you don't deal with primary sources. And you don't deal on a scholarly level.

Known to the Church for 2,000 years, eh?  Interesting, as since the Church was born at Pentacost, she knew these "sources" before her birth.  Before the NT in fact.

What are these "sources?"  "The Lost Years of Jesus?"  "The DaVinci Code?" "Jesus in Kashmir?"

I'm sorry, I have to disagree Quinault: this is all too amuzing to be insulting.
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« Reply #101 on: March 04, 2009, 07:05:24 PM »

I'm sorry, I have to disagree Quinault: this is all too amuzing to be insulting.

I think my lack of sleep is starting to get to me.  Cheesy
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« Reply #102 on: March 04, 2009, 07:10:23 PM »


Thank you, Quinault.  We can see that the CCEL site provides no more references that those which are included in the post I sent earlier.   

These are readily available book material, not like David's.  Wink  But Internet people don't like references to books.  Maybe if someone has some time they could search out each reference on an Internet site and give us some clickable references.  I'd be more than happy to add them into the post - I am sure the post will be useful again in the future. Honorius keeps popping up.
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« Reply #103 on: March 04, 2009, 08:14:46 PM »


Thank you, Quinault.  We can see that the CCEL site provides no more references that those which are included in the post I sent earlier.   


I'm confused--Fr Chris was asking for a link to the source. Why then would you say the CCEL site provides no more references than what was in your post? As it was assumed you were quoting from the CCEL site, what we wanted was a link to the original, which Quinault provided kindly.

When you said you got it out of a book and not from the CCEL site, it was stated that the book citation was fine.  Again, what we want is to enable other users to interface with the primary sources when we reference them in posts, not cause posters undue trouble

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« Reply #104 on: March 04, 2009, 09:06:34 PM »

Quote
But Internet people don't like references to books.

Some of us "internet people" prefer both, actually. It's nice to have a hard copy of something that you can hold in your hand and verify that way. On the other hand, many of us live in an area where we do not have access to large academic/religious libraries, and thus if everything was simply out of books, we'd often have no way of checking on what a person was saying.
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« Reply #105 on: March 05, 2009, 12:14:29 AM »

I think Fr. Ambrose was saying that he didn't know if what he culled from CAF on Honorius and posted was ccel and/or books or just ccel earlier. But looking now at ccel there isn't any info in his posts that were not available on the link I provided.
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« Reply #106 on: March 05, 2009, 12:36:59 AM »

Dear Cleveland,

if you examine each item you will find the source is posted.   But it is not a clickable source.  I am not sure but it seems to be a requirement that references to the Acts of a Council or to books are not acceptable,.  It must be a clickable source?  I.e., something on the Internet?  If that is the Forum rule I shall of course abide by it but it does cut out a lot of material out.

No, it does not have to be a "clickable" source - book sources are sufficient.  I guess I thought I understood what was going on, but I must not have read carefully enough, leaving me a bit confused, but not with enough energy to go back over the posts in question.
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« Reply #107 on: March 05, 2009, 01:25:16 AM »


I'm confused--Fr Chris was asking for a link to the source. Why then would you say the CCEL site provides no more references than what was in your post? As it was assumed you were quoting from the CCEL site, what we wanted was a link to the original, which Quinault provided kindly.

When you

I think the confusion reflects our generation gap,  I am happy with sources from printed material.  The younger generation are impatient of that and want instant access to clickable Internet sources.

Here are the sources given in my post and (most of them) by CCEL.

1.  The Acts of the 13th Session of the 6th Ecumenical Council.

2. Honorius's two letters in favour of monothelitism.
   Ordered burnt by the 13th Session of the 6th Ecumenical Council.

3. The Anathema from 17th session of the 6th Ecumenical Council.
 
4. The Decree of Faith  of the 17th Session of the 6th Ecumenical Council. 

5. The report of the 6th Council to the Emperor.

6. The letter of the 6th Ecumenical Council to Pope Agatho.

7. The Imperial Decree and the Imperial Anathemas on the monothelite heretics.

8. Pope Leo II's confirmation of the decrees and Anathemas of the Council.  This one may not be easy to locate.

9. Honorius' anathematization supported by the Trullan (Quinisext) Canons.

10. The Seventh Ecumenical Council's confirmation of the Anathemas.

11. The Roman copy of the Acts, mentioned in Anastasius's life of Leo II (Vita Leonis II.)

12. The Papal Oath in the Liber Diurnus.

13. The lesson for the feast of St. Leo II in the Roman Breviary .

14. The Catholic Encyclopedia article on Honorius.

The references are all there, but just not clickable references.   People should start using libraries again.   Smiley


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« Reply #108 on: March 05, 2009, 01:34:32 AM »

I think Fr. Ambrose was saying that he didn't know if what he culled from CAF on Honorius and posted was ccel and/or books or just ccel earlier. But looking now at ccel there isn't any info in his posts that were not available on the link I provided.

Dear Quinault,

Here is my same post on CAF - Message No. 3
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=138703

It is 2 years ago.  It was posted several times on CAF whenever Honorius came up so it is even older than 2 years really.

With this space of time I must confess that I simply do not remember where it is from - whether it is from the CCEL site or from the bookshelves.

_______________

PS:  The really interesting matter is not these workaday references to Honorius but the esoteric material which David is giving us.  Fascianting stuff and I wish he would reveal more of the sources and their reliability.

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« Reply #109 on: March 05, 2009, 01:41:13 AM »

Quote
The really interesting matter is not these workaday references to Honorius but the esoteric material which David is giving us.  Fascianting stuff and I wish he would reveal more of the sources and their reliability.

With respect, Father, I wouldn't hold my breath on that.  Roll Eyes An Orthodox who's promoting papal supremacy? It just don't add up.
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« Reply #110 on: March 05, 2009, 01:47:08 AM »

Quote
The younger generation are impatient of that and want instant access to clickable Internet sources.

Not really.
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« Reply #111 on: March 05, 2009, 01:55:13 AM »

Inpatient?
*wait I need to go stir the powdered instant tea into the water I just microwaved*

I am a very patient person, I had to stir that tea for 10 whole seconds to get it to dissolve properly! laugh
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« Reply #112 on: March 05, 2009, 02:40:08 AM »

I think the confusion reflects our generation gap,
Quite possibly, but I think for different reasons than you think.

I am happy with sources from printed material. 
And so are the younger generation.

The younger generation are impatient of that and want instant access to clickable Internet sources.
That's not the case. The younger generation are not impatient, they just have a more genuine love of what is genuine and true than we do. The fact is you actually provided no references whatsoever for what you said, which gave the appearance that you had researched the information yourself, whereas in fact, you were quoting directly from another author (which is plagiarism).

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« Reply #113 on: March 05, 2009, 02:46:12 AM »

I think the confusion reflects our generation gap,
Quite possibly, but I think for different reasons than you think.

I am happy with sources from printed material. 
And so are the younger generation.

The younger generation are impatient of that and want instant access to clickable Internet sources.
That's not the case. The younger generation are not impatient, they just have a more genuine love of what is genuine and true than we do. The fact is you actually provided no references whatsoever for what you said, which gave the appearance that you had researched the information yourself, whereas in fact, you were quoting directly from another author (which is plagiarism).



See my message no. 108.  I took the message off CAF and had no idea from where I found the source 2 and more years ago  Plagiarism?  Perhaps so - one of those "unintentional" sins of which only the Orthodox can be guilty.    Smiley
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« Reply #114 on: March 05, 2009, 02:51:15 AM »

I think the confusion reflects our generation gap,
Quite possibly, but I think for different reasons than you think.

I am happy with sources from printed material. 
And so are the younger generation.

The younger generation are impatient of that and want instant access to clickable Internet sources.
That's not the case. The younger generation are not impatient, they just have a more genuine love of what is genuine and true than we do. The fact is you actually provided no references whatsoever for what you said, which gave the appearance that you had researched the information yourself, whereas in fact, you were quoting directly from another author (which is plagiarism).



See my message no. 108.  I took the message off CAF and had no idea from where I found the source 2 and more years ago  Plagiarism?  Perhaps so - one of those "unintentional" sins of which only the Orthodox can be guilty.    Smiley
I did see message 108 which simply states that the same thing was posted two years ago on CAF with no references for its source. It is nothing to do with "sin", it is about proper debate and academic discourse.
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« Reply #115 on: March 05, 2009, 06:22:38 AM »

I think the confusion reflects our generation gap,
Quite possibly, but I think for different reasons than you think.

I am happy with sources from printed material. 
And so are the younger generation.

The younger generation are impatient of that and want instant access to clickable Internet sources.
That's not the case. The younger generation are not impatient, they just have a more genuine love of what is genuine and true than we do. The fact is you actually provided no references whatsoever for what you said, which gave the appearance that you had researched the information yourself, whereas in fact, you were quoting directly from another author (which is plagiarism)


See my message no. 108.  I took the message off CAF and had no idea from where I found the source 2 and more years ago  Plagiarism?  Perhaps so - one of those "unintentional" sins of which only the Orthodox can be guilty.    Smiley
I did see message 108 which simply states that the same thing was posted two years ago on CAF with no references for its source. It is nothing to do with "sin", it is about proper debate and academic discourse.

I would classify plagiarism as a sin, and I am guilty of it, it seems, although quite unintentionally.  You were right to so accuse me.
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« Reply #116 on: March 05, 2009, 10:01:19 AM »


I'm confused--Fr Chris was asking for a link to the source. Why then would you say the CCEL site provides no more references than what was in your post? As it was assumed you were quoting from the CCEL site, what we wanted was a link to the original, which Quinault provided kindly.

When you

I think the confusion reflects our generation gap,  I am happy with sources from printed material.  The younger generation are impatient of that and want instant access to clickable Internet sources.

Here are the sources given in my post and (most of them) by CCEL.

1.  The Acts of the 13th Session of the 6th Ecumenical Council.

2. Honorius's two letters in favour of monothelitism.
   Ordered burnt by the 13th Session of the 6th Ecumenical Council.

3. The Anathema from 17th session of the 6th Ecumenical Council.
 
4. The Decree of Faith  of the 17th Session of the 6th Ecumenical Council. 

5. The report of the 6th Council to the Emperor.

6. The letter of the 6th Ecumenical Council to Pope Agatho.

7. The Imperial Decree and the Imperial Anathemas on the monothelite heretics.

8. Pope Leo II's confirmation of the decrees and Anathemas of the Council.  This one may not be easy to locate.

9. Honorius' anathematization supported by the Trullan (Quinisext) Canons.

10. The Seventh Ecumenical Council's confirmation of the Anathemas.

11. The Roman copy of the Acts, mentioned in Anastasius's life of Leo II (Vita Leonis II.)

12. The Papal Oath in the Liber Diurnus.

13. The lesson for the feast of St. Leo II in the Roman Breviary .

14. The Catholic Encyclopedia article on Honorius.

The references are all there, but just not clickable references.   People should start using libraries again.   Smiley

Ahh.  I see.  So Father Chris'  request was essentially "where did you find the transcripts of the sessions of the council and the letters etc."  For example, some get theirs from the Post Nicene Fathers Series; some get theirs from texts in Greek (like the Syntagma or the Pedalion).  Since the acts of the 6th Council (as an example) haven't been published on their own, he's seeking info as to where you found them - I suppose because the translation makes a difference, as does the source.
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« Reply #117 on: March 05, 2009, 10:14:22 AM »

Quote
Since the acts of the 6th Council (as an example) haven't been published on their own, he's seeking info as to where you found them - I suppose because the translation makes a difference, as does the source.

I want to stress why I first asked for the source. It is not because the information is new or allegedly controversial...clearly it is not since it is part of the Nicene and Post Nicene fathers Series, widely available for the past 50 years or so.

The reason behind my request is that often people come to this site to conduct research. Maybe it is for their own edification, maybe for theology term paper, whatever....the big thing is that if the source is listed it can help others in their spiritual growth and expansion of knowledge.

If the source is listed, then the interested person can review the source and maybe find other information of value. On the other hand, the statement "I found it somewhere and have been using it elsewhere, and since I cannot find it on the Internet I will not provide the source" or "I have information that completely re-writes history and will keep this information privy only to me" helps no one.

And if we are not helping others to learn about Truth....then why are we here?
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« Reply #118 on: March 05, 2009, 10:20:06 AM »

Thanks, Fr.  Better to hear it directly from your mouth, than my imperfect (and wrong) interpretations.
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« Reply #119 on: March 05, 2009, 10:24:29 AM »

Cleveland, there was no wrong interpretation on your part...just a lack of good communication on my part.  Tongue

You brought up some great points that I had not thought of, which really underscores why we need to be citing these sources....being able to look at the source material can cause a synergistic effect of excellent ideas coming from the same source after others look at the same information but from different viewpoints.
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« Reply #120 on: March 05, 2009, 07:12:19 PM »

The reason behind my request is that often people come to this site to conduct research. Maybe it is for their own edification, maybe for theology term paper, whatever....the big thing is that if the source is listed it can help others in their spiritual growth and expansion of knowledge.

Father Chris,

When people are conducting research they want the PRIMARY souces, all of which were included in my message.  No student writing a theology paper should give internet links as his sources.  He should provide references to printed sources.

Clickable sources on the Internet are ephemeral and may be here today and gone tomorrow.

PRIMARY soucrces are books.  Bibliographies are what are needed.   Smiley
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« Reply #121 on: March 05, 2009, 07:18:52 PM »

Thanks, Fr.  Better to hear it directly from your mouth, than my imperfect (and wrong) interpretations.

I really need some guidance as to my earlier question.

Although references to primary sources were provided in my message it seems that this is not sufficient for the Forum's rules about prioviding sources.

Must sources be clickable?   Are bibilograohical references which are not on the Net insufficient?

Help! I am really confused.  I can see I have done something wrong - the many messages it has occasioned is proof of that.  But I still have no clarity as to what is required for references.
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« Reply #122 on: March 05, 2009, 08:06:51 PM »

Father, one can cite an Internet site these days.  My apologies if you were aware of the website and/or citing Internet content.   Smiley

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« Reply #123 on: March 05, 2009, 10:59:43 PM »

David,

Please provide these sources and where they can be found. While you are at it, please PM me and let me know if you have already signed up for this forum under another name as I requested earlier today.

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I use primary source material. You have to visit places like Harvard and other places to get access to them. A friend of mind has it all in his yet to be published book. I am one of only a handful in the world who have his book in manuscript form. Those who deal on a scholalrly level are familiar with my sources. And as I said earlier, no I don't have another account. I might have opened one long ago. I've been around.

This thread was supposed to be on the pope being the head of the Church. No one has refuted the sources I gave proving he was viewed as the head, and there are many more, believe me.
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« Reply #124 on: March 05, 2009, 11:03:56 PM »

No one has refuted the sources I gave proving he was viewed as the head, and there are many more, believe me.
That's because you refuse to give the sources.
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« Reply #125 on: March 05, 2009, 11:07:51 PM »

David,

Please provide these sources and where they can be found. While you are at it, please PM me and let me know if you have already signed up for this forum under another name as I requested earlier today.

Fr Anastasios
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I use primary source material. You have to visit places like Harvard and other places to get access to them. A friend of mind has it all in his yet to be published book. I am one of only a handful in the world who have his book in manuscript form. Those who deal on a scholalrly level are familiar with my sources. And as I said earlier, no I don't have another account. I might have opened one long ago. I've been around.

This thread was supposed to be on the pope being the head of the Church. No one has refuted the sources I gave proving he was viewed as the head, and there are many more, believe me.

Are you the same poster as this:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2558
Fr Anastasios

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« Reply #126 on: March 05, 2009, 11:13:59 PM »

David,

Please provide these sources and where they can be found. While you are at it, please PM me and let me know if you have already signed up for this forum under another name as I requested earlier today.

Fr Anastasios
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I use primary source material. You have to visit places like Harvard and other places to get access to them.


Really?  At the University of Chicago of MA?

When I used to work at the University of Chicago librairies while getting my PhD in Early Islamic History (I studied late Antiquity and European Civ. too), I often was in the Rare Book collection.  Give me the manuscript/bibliographical info.  I'll find it.

Quote
A friend of mind has it all in his yet to be published book. I am one of only a handful in the world who have his book in manuscript form. Those who deal on a scholalrly level are familiar with my sources.

No, we're not.


Quote
And as I said earlier, no I don't have another account. I might have opened one long ago. I've been around.

CAF?  I'm sure you have.

Quote
This thread was supposed to be on the pope being the head of the Church. No one has refuted the sources I gave proving he was viewed as the head, and there are many more, believe me.

OzGeorge is spot on.
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« Reply #127 on: March 05, 2009, 11:19:25 PM »

David,

Please provide these sources and where they can be found. While you are at it, please PM me and let me know if you have already signed up for this forum under another name as I requested earlier today.

Fr Anastasios
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http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15956.msg227807.html#msg227807

I use primary source material. You have to visit places like Harvard and other places to get access to them. A friend of mind has it all in his yet to be published book. I am one of only a handful in the world who have his book in manuscript form. Those who deal on a scholalrly level are familiar with my sources. And as I said earlier, no I don't have another account. I might have opened one long ago. I've been around.

This thread was supposed to be on the pope being the head of the Church. No one has refuted the sources I gave proving he was viewed as the head, and there are many more, believe me.

Are you the same poster as this:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2558
Fr Anastasios



Given his respect for "places like Harvard and other places," it can't be our old friend:

Quote
Euthymios' Trashy way of praying for people
« on: May 13, 2008, 04:35:35 AM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Heorhij on May 12, 2008, 06:32:41 PM
Humbly asking for your prayers... my daughter is taking a pretty difficult final exam in the German language at Harvard. 


It is obvious your prayer request was not intended for prayer, but to boast. God would not answer a selfish and sinful prayer like that. He is more concerned with starving children in Africa. And Harvard is liberal. Nothing to be proud of. My uncle went to Harvard Law school. But it was not as liberal then as it is now. [Emphasis added]
Honestly, who attacks someone's request in the Prayer forum?  If you don't think the prayer is genuine, then pray to the Lord for enlightenment - both for the subject of the prayer, and the person who made the request.  We do not accept any sort of shenanigans in the prayer forum, however, and what you've said and done (twice!) is unacceptable.  If you feel that this warning is in error, please send a private message to FrChris (the Forum Administrator).

- Cleveland, Global Moderator
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« Reply #128 on: March 05, 2009, 11:24:04 PM »

You have to visit places like Harvard and other places to get access to them.
I don't know much about Universities in the US, but one of our posters made the claim that Havard is "liberal" and that anyone who studies there will "lose their faith or end up a mediocre Christian". Would you agree with this? Here is what they said:

It is obvious your prayer request was not intended for prayer, but to boast. God would not answer a selfish and sinful prayer like that. He is more concerned with starving children in Africa. And Harvard is liberal. Nothing to be proud of. My uncle went to Harvard Law school. But it was not as liberal then as it is now.

I submit that when she comes out of that school, she will have either lost faith, or will end-up a very mediocre Christian.
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« Reply #129 on: March 05, 2009, 11:27:10 PM »

David?
Where did you go?
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« Reply #130 on: March 05, 2009, 11:30:37 PM »

To get solid references perhaps?  You can give us references even though we may not go to Harvard we can still get books through inter-library loan.
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« Reply #131 on: March 06, 2009, 12:02:58 AM »

David/Euthymios, this is an official request, by myself, the moderator of this section, echoing that previously put forward by a forum administrator.  Please provide proper citations!  For example:  [Thiel, 955] means nothing to us.  Now, if you were to say it was from Thiel's Epistolae Romanorum Pontificum Genuinae, Epistola 132,... that is something we can work with.  Expanding on certain acronymns would be helpful as well.  You don't have to follow the Chicago Manual style or anything, but something more substantial is needed.

Thank you.

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« Reply #132 on: March 06, 2009, 12:09:25 AM »

The reason behind my request is that often people come to this site to conduct research. Maybe it is for their own edification, maybe for theology term paper, whatever....the big thing is that if the source is listed it can help others in their spiritual growth and expansion of knowledge.

Father Chris,

When people are conducting research they want the PRIMARY souces, all of which were included in my message.  No student writing a theology paper should give internet links as his sources.  He should provide references to printed sources.

Clickable sources on the Internet are ephemeral and may be here today and gone tomorrow.

PRIMARY soucrces are books.  Bibliographies are what are needed.   Smiley

Yes, but many people sitting at home are not professional Theologians or folks writing papers - they're just faithful (or inquirers) who want to do some extra research, and it would be helpful for them if they knew where they could find copies of the primary source material.  References don't have to be clickable, but they do have to be accessible - neither you nor I have the actual acts of the 6th Ecumenical Council with us, but we both know of collections where we can find copies, manuscripts, or translations.  That's what Father is asking for, for the benefit of others who are faced with the same dilemmas and who are seeking better knowledge of the Orthodox faith.
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« Reply #133 on: March 06, 2009, 12:34:43 AM »

I'm not sure if this helps, but does Canon 6 of Nicea ring a bell to anyone?

Quote
Let the ancient customs prevail which were in vogue in Egypt and Libya and Pentapolis, to allow the bishop of Alexandria to have authority over all these parts, since this is also the treatment usually accorded to the bishop of Rome. Likewise with reference to Antioch, and in other provinces, let the seniority be preserved to the Churches. In general it is obvious that in the case in which anyone has been made a bishop without the Metropolitan’s approval, the great Council has prescribed that such a person must not be a Bishop. If, however, to the common vote of all, though reasonable and in accordance with an ecclesiastical Canon, two or three men object on account of a private quarrel, let the vote of the majority prevail.

I got this from a web page that has all the canons of the 7 ecumenical councils.
It offers and interpretation of this canon:
http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0835/_P8.HTM
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« Reply #134 on: March 06, 2009, 01:24:18 AM »

David/Euthymios, this is an official request, by myself, the moderator of this section, echoing that previously put forward by a forum administrator.  Please provide proper citations!  For example:  [Thiel, 955] means nothing to us.  Now, if you were to say it was from Thiel's Epistolae Romanorum Pontificum Genuinae, Epistola 132,... that is something we can work with.  Expanding on certain acronymns would be helpful as well.  You don't have to follow the Chicago Manual style or anything, but something more substantial is needed.

Thank you.

-- Nebelpfade
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Wow...there is quite a parallel indeed:


Evlogeite and Christos Anesti!

I want to clarify that I am not a Catholic [in the apostate Roman sense]. I am Greek Orthodox. The material I have supplied on this site, comes from my friends yet to be published book called "Keys Over the Christian World," by John Collorafi. He is a Roman Catholic. I have recently sent the manuscript copy of his book to a very scholarly Greek monastery. They will have their hands full with this book, but I am confident they will be able to produce a valuable response and review [critique] of its contents.

If anyone knows any Orthodox patristic scholar who would be willing to review this book [the book is encylopedic in information and extremlely detailed], let me know and I will send him a free copy. I have to print and bind myself. I have the book on disc. I have my own answers / refutations of the book; but I would like to hear a review from the Orthodox scholarly community. Some consider Collorafi the greatest expert on the first 900 years of papal history, alive in the world today.


I apologize for my sins and the confusion I have caused.

Alithos anesti!

I guess we know his source  Wink
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« Reply #135 on: March 06, 2009, 09:43:22 AM »

David/Euthymios, this is an official request, by myself, the moderator of this section, echoing that previously put forward by a forum administrator.  Please provide proper citations!  For example:  [Thiel, 955] means nothing to us.  Now, if you were to say it was from Thiel's Epistolae Romanorum Pontificum Genuinae, Epistola 132,... that is something we can work with.  Expanding on certain acronymns would be helpful as well.  You don't have to follow the Chicago Manual style or anything, but something more substantial is needed.

Thank you.

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Wow...there is quite a parallel indeed:

Officer, I think we have a match on the prints. police Can we get a psychological profile?

Quote

Evlogeite and Christos Anesti!

I want to clarify that I am not a Catholic [in the apostate Roman sense]. I am Greek Orthodox. The material I have supplied on this site, comes from my friends yet to be published book called "Keys Over the Christian World," by John Collorafi. He is a Roman Catholic. I have recently sent the manuscript copy of his book to a very scholarly Greek monastery. They will have their hands full with this book, but I am confident they will be able to produce a valuable response and review [critique] of its contents.

If anyone knows any Orthodox patristic scholar who would be willing to review this book [the book is encylopedic in information and extremlely detailed], let me know and I will send him a free copy. I have to print and bind myself. I have the book on disc. I have my own answers / refutations of the book; but I would like to hear a review from the Orthodox scholarly community. Some consider Collorafi the greatest expert on the first 900 years of papal history, alive in the world today.


I apologize for my sins and the confusion I have caused.

Alithos anesti!

I guess we know his source  Wink

Googling Mr. John Collorafi, this named is conected with Fatime (something that always makes my creepy hairs stand up) and Padre Pio (there was some to do a while ago about some Romanian village who submitted to the Vatican, crediting Padre Pio).

Here's a talk of his that "Portugal exemplifies the Peace that will be given out to the world when Russia is properly Consecrated."
http://www.heavenspeaceplan.com/hosttopic/consecration.asp#col1

He has some interesting things to say about the "Melkite cancer" here:
http://blog.ancient-future.net/2008/03/28/four-ukrainian-bishops-consecrated-without-mandate-of-rome-or-major-archbishop/
(it has another exchange between an old friend Hesychios and another old "friend" Simple Sinner).
And Diane, who set the set of events in motion that led to the great CAF Orthodox purge. "David," it seems you are in good company.

Here is his translation "For the Conversion of the Jews" for another Vatican obsessed group:
http://www.traditioninaction.org/tiabk023Tertullian.htm

So at least he can get his translations published.  Nothing on the papacy, though, except his profile name "ancientpapacy" on Yahoo:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/catholicdebateforum/message/7894
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« Reply #136 on: March 06, 2009, 09:59:11 AM »

Quote
Officer, I think we have a match on the prints.   police Can we get a psychological profile?

This person has used at least five identities on another forum. He's not that difficult to spot.  angel
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« Reply #137 on: March 06, 2009, 10:00:45 AM »

Quote
Officer, I think we have a match on the prints.   police Can we get a psychological profile?

This person has used at least five identities on another forum. He's not that difficult to spot.  angel

So, multiple personality.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Anastasios
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Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
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« Reply #138 on: March 06, 2009, 10:49:12 AM »

The poster has been banned under his current username and may return under moderation under his original name. So it is probably time to close this thread.
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Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Pravoslavbob
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« Reply #139 on: March 06, 2009, 11:08:16 AM »

Thread locked as per Fr Anastasios' suggestion. 
Pravoslavbob.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 11:08:54 AM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
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