OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 27, 2014, 12:29:49 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Observing days and months and seasons  (Read 4247 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Doubting Thomas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 874

Anglican (but not Episcopagan)


« on: September 25, 2003, 09:32:50 AM »

One of things that I get hung up on when considering Orthodoxy (although the list of such things has shrunk considerably) is the observance of feast days and fast days.  I was reading in Galatians 4 this morning a passage which seems to indicate that such observance was frowned upon (to say the least) by the Apostle Paul: "But now after  you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?  You observe days and months and seasons and years.  I am afraid for you lest I have labored for you in vain. (Gal 4:9-11)".  This sentiment is apparently echoed in Colossians 2:16-17:  "So let know one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or new moons or sabbaths, which are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance is of Christ."

How does the Orthodox church justify the practices of feast days in light of these passages?  Or rather how does the church interpret this differently than I am doing?
Logged

"My Lord and My God!"--Doubting Thomas, AD 33
moronikos
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ...and they were first called Christians in Antioch
Posts: 150


I'm trying to think, but nothing happens!


WWW
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2003, 10:12:07 AM »

As a Baptist, do you not celebrate Christmas?  Easter?  Birthdays?

Well we Orthodox celebrate the Nativity of Christ (Christmas).  We celebrate Pascha (Easter).  We celebrate birthdays.  We celebrate the passing away of certain great men and women of God (Saints).

In preparation for the major feasts, we also fast.  The church doesn't make anybody fast.  The church can only recommend that you go to this desert or take up that cross.

What we don't celebrate is the Passover.  It was only something pointing to something greater--Pascha.  We eat spare ribs and shrimp.  Paul was addressing the Judaizers who were trying to impose the Law and Jewish customs on the Gentile Christians.

But, if you want to take this hyper-literally (and not according to the truth), tell your mother or wife that you're not celebrating Thanksgiving and that you refuse to eat turkey since it would be observing days, seasons, food, and drink.  Tell them you don't want to be enslaved to that custom.  Grin Grin
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,436



« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2003, 10:23:30 AM »

It seems to me that the passage is referring to observing the Jewish holidays.
Logged
Doubting Thomas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 874

Anglican (but not Episcopagan)


« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2003, 10:24:29 AM »

Moronikos,

I get your point.  There are some hardcore baptists, however, that do not celebrate even Christmas or Easter, citing their "pagan" origins and appealing to those passages I've cited.  Perhaps we're all wrong except these folks  Shocked.

Seriously, I see what you are saying and that seems like a reasonable explanation to me.

It does bring up a deeper point, and that's how Paul is generally interpreted among Protestants.  There is a very strong tendency among Protestantism, particularly contemporary Evangelicalism, to interpret the Gospels and the non-Pauline epistles in light of Paul's epistles, or rather, a certain understanding of Paul's writings.  There is also a common saying that the author of Romans (Paul) was a Calvinist while the author of Hebrews, for example, was Arminian.  Obviously Scripture cannot contradict itself when properly interpreted, so somebody is reading certain Scriptures incorrectly.
Logged

"My Lord and My God!"--Doubting Thomas, AD 33
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,436



« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2003, 10:39:23 AM »

Moronikos,

I get your point.  There are some hardcore baptists, however, that do not celebrate even Christmas or Easter, citing their "pagan" origins and appealing to those passages I've cited.  Perhaps we're all wrong except these folks  Shocked.


Well, the "Easter is Pagan" stuff is a load of dingo's kidneys.
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2003, 10:46:34 AM »

I would suggest you read the martyrdom of polycarp (available online--try a search using google or teoma.com) and read how by even the 2nd century (mid-100's) they were observing the memory of saints.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Doubting Thomas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 874

Anglican (but not Episcopagan)


« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2003, 10:52:45 AM »

Moronikos,

I get your point.  There are some hardcore baptists, however, that do not celebrate even Christmas or Easter, citing their "pagan" origins and appealing to those passages I've cited.  Perhaps we're all wrong except these folks  Shocked.


Well, the "Easter is Pagan" stuff is a load of dingo's kidneys.


Keble, I didn't say I agreed with them (notice I put "pagan" in quotes).  I 'm just saying that there are some indy fundy Baptists  who use that line of argumentation while appealing to the passages I cited.

"Dingo's Kidneys"...now that's one I've never heard before.  Grin
Logged

"My Lord and My God!"--Doubting Thomas, AD 33
Doubting Thomas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 874

Anglican (but not Episcopagan)


« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2003, 11:03:08 AM »

I would suggest you read the martyrdom of polycarp (available online--try a search using google or teoma.com) and read how by even the 2nd century (mid-100's) they were observing the memory of saints.

anastasios

Thanks, I'll have to do that.  I have a website with all the ECFs on line on my favorites list, so I'll look for it there. Smiley
Logged

"My Lord and My God!"--Doubting Thomas, AD 33
Robert
"Amazing"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,442



« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2003, 11:31:26 AM »

As a Baptist, do you not celebrate Christmas?  Easter?  Birthdays?

Well we Orthodox celebrate the Nativity of Christ (Christmas).  We celebrate Pascha (Easter).  We celebrate birthdays.  We celebrate the passing away of certain great men and women of God (Saints).

In preparation for the major feasts, we also fast.  The church doesn't make anybody fast.  The church can only recommend that you go to this desert or take up that cross.

What we don't celebrate is the Passover.  It was only something pointing to something greater--Pascha.  We eat spare ribs and shrimp.  Paul was addressing the Judaizers who were trying to impose the Law and Jewish customs on the Gentile Christians.

But, if you want to take this hyper-literally (and not according to the truth), tell your mother or wife that you're not celebrating Thanksgiving and that you refuse to eat turkey since it would be observing days, seasons, food, and drink.  Tell them you don't want to be enslaved to that custom.  Grin Grin

Tell your wife you don't want to celebrate your anniversary then watch the sh** really hit the fan Smiley

Bobby
Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,462


« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2003, 11:51:19 AM »

Moronikos,

I get your point.  There are some hardcore baptists, however, that do not celebrate even Christmas or Easter, citing their "pagan" origins and appealing to those passages I've cited.  Perhaps we're all wrong except these folks  Shocked.


Well, the "Easter is Pagan" stuff is a load of dingo's kidneys.


Well, to be anal about it, the word "Easter" has pagan origins - and why the Orthodox generally say Pascha instead (more theologically correct).  But, yes, the festival itself is not pagan.
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,436



« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2003, 12:39:05 PM »


Well, to be anal about it, the word "Easter" has pagan origins - and why the Orthodox generally say Pascha instead (more theologically correct).  But, yes, the festival itself is not pagan.

Actually, Easter does not appear to derive from Eostre. It's not really even clear that there was such a goddess, Bede notwithstanding. Ronald Hutton addresses the question at length.
Logged
Oblio
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 454

The Pointless One !


WWW
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2003, 03:06:52 PM »

Quote
Actually, Easter does not appear to derive from Eostre. It's not really even clear that there was such a goddess, Bede notwithstanding. Ronald Hutton addresses the question at length.

Keble, do you have a link to support this ?  We constantly have to field this jibberish of pagan-Christianity over at ChristianForums.com by atheists, Messainics, SDAs and others with a disdain for all things catholic.
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,436



« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2003, 03:38:09 PM »

I might be able to find something on line. We do have Hutton's books at home and I can at least provide a citation that way.
Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,462


« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2003, 06:42:03 PM »

Quote
Actually, Easter does not appear to derive from Eostre. It's not really even clear that there was such a goddess, Bede notwithstanding. Ronald Hutton addresses the question at length.

Keble, do you have a link to support this ?  We constantly have to field this jibberish of pagan-Christianity over at ChristianForums.com by atheists, Messainics, SDAs and others with a disdain for all things catholic.  

Is that the new name of CBBS.com or is this something different?
Logged
Oblio
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 454

The Pointless One !


WWW
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2003, 09:07:50 PM »

Different, we are tolerated, heck, we even have our own forum Smiley
Philip (Monkey) and yours truly are mods over there to keep the rable rousers at bay in the Eastern corner Wink
« Last Edit: September 25, 2003, 09:12:29 PM by Oblio » Logged
prodromos
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,463

Sydney, Australia


« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2003, 04:11:09 AM »

Actually, Easter does not appear to derive from Eostre. It's not really even clear that there was such a goddess, Bede notwithstanding. Ronald Hutton addresses the question at length.

To the best of my knowledge, the name Easter is used only in the Germanic languages (of which English is one). All the other languages use Pascha which is the Hebrew for Passover.

Does anyone have a German etymological dictionary where they can look up the origin of the word "Ostern"? I'd search the web, but I don't know any German.

unworthy John
Logged
prodromos
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,463

Sydney, Australia


« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2003, 04:18:38 AM »

"Dingo's Kidneys"...now that's one I've never heard before.  Grin

You obviously don't read enough Douglas Adams you philistine Wink (or maybe you do. Hard to interpret that smiley)

I personally prefer "Fetid Dingo's Kidneys", but that's just me.

unworthy John.
Logged
Doubting Thomas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 874

Anglican (but not Episcopagan)


« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2003, 08:23:52 AM »

"Dingo's Kidneys"...now that's one I've never heard before.  Grin

You obviously don't read enough Douglas Adams you philistine Wink (or maybe you do. Hard to interpret that smiley)

I personally prefer "Fetid Dingo's Kidneys", but that's just me.

unworthy John.

Actually two summers ago, I bought his Hitchicker series (5 books in one volume) and read the first two books.  Is that from where that phrase comes?
Logged

"My Lord and My God!"--Doubting Thomas, AD 33
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,462


« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2003, 11:20:53 AM »

Actually, Easter does not appear to derive from Eostre. It's not really even clear that there was such a goddess, Bede notwithstanding. Ronald Hutton addresses the question at length.

To the best of my knowledge, the name Easter is used only in the Germanic languages (of which English is one). All the other languages use Pascha which is the Hebrew for Passover.

Does anyone have a German etymological dictionary where they can look up the origin of the word "Ostern"? I'd search the web, but I don't know any German.

unworthy John

Ostern is just German for eastern.  It's "Eostre" that I think is the root of our word Easter.
Logged
prodromos
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,463

Sydney, Australia


« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2003, 09:41:44 AM »

My dictionary says Ostern is German for Pascha.
Logged
Chuck S.
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 71


Place Personal Text Here


« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2003, 04:51:59 PM »


How does the Orthodox church justify the practices of feast days in light of these passages?  Or rather how does the church interpret this differently than I am doing?

We dont have to justify it since the Apostles kept days, feasts and fasts. We have no right to decide they really had no idea what they were doing so we're going to correct the Apostles. Smiley

Read the book of Acts. Throughout the entire book we read of Apostles keeping hours of prayer, (the same hours the Orthodox Church keeps to this day...the 1st, 3rd, 6th and 9th hours)

We even read in 2 different places (at least) where St. Paul made specific efforts to return to the Mother Church of Jerusalem to keep specific Church FEASTS.

"But Paul took leave of them saying I must by all means keep the comming feast in Jerusalem" Acts 18:21

Another time we read, "For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus so that he would not have to spend time in Asia for he was urrying to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the Day of Pentecost. -Acts 20:18

There are other instances in the book of Acts as well, but these are the ones in reference to St. Paul. Certainly if Paul was keeping feasts, even going so far as to travel to the Church of Jerusalem to keep them, he obviously didn't mean that keeping feasts is somehow wrong.

He kept fasts and feasts, the other Apostles did as well, and if they did it then so should we.

Does that help any?













Logged

In Christ, Thomas
Doubting Thomas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 874

Anglican (but not Episcopagan)


« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2003, 08:22:18 PM »


He kept fasts and feasts, the other Apostles did as well, and if they did it then so should we.

Does that help any?

Yes, that does help.  Good point. Smiley
Logged

"My Lord and My God!"--Doubting Thomas, AD 33
Tags: feasts 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.113 seconds with 49 queries.