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The young fogey
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« on: October 12, 2003, 04:04:15 PM » |
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<surface>
-ú-É!
-Ãœ-+-+-¦-Ã¥ -Ç-¦-ü-¦-+-+-¦ -+-¦-¦-¦-â -Æ’-ª-ù -+ -Æ’-ª--£-Æ’ -+-ç-¦-+-î -ü-¦-+-Ç-+ -+-¦-ü-é-â-+-¦-Ä-ê-+-¦! ‘-ö-¦ -¦-ü-+ -¦-¦-+-+-+ -¦-â-¦-â-é’ - -+-¦-+-¦-Ã… -¦-+-+-ü-é-+-+-î-ü-¦-¦-Ã… -¦-¦-Ç-¦, -+-¦-+-¦-Ã… -Ç-â-ü-ü-¦-¦-Ã… -Ã¥-¦-Ç-¦-+-¦-î. -¡-é-+ - -ç-¦-ü-é-î -¦-â-à -+-¦-+-+-¦-+, -¦-¦-+-+-¦-+-¦-+ -Ç-â-ü-ü-¦-+-¦-+ -¦-+-ü-¦-Ç-¦-ü-¦-+-+-Ã…! -ÿ -+-¦ -+-¦-¦-¦-ü-¦-à -¦-ü-¦ -ü-¦-Ã…-é-ï-¦ -+ -¦-+-¦-¦-+-+ -+-Ç-¦-+-¦-+-â-Ä-é. -É-+-+-+-+-â-Ã…!
The word is out - things are moving fast. The latest I've heard is the councils of the ROCOR dioceses of Detroit and of Germany/Western Europe have voted unanimously to join the Church of Russia.
In December there will be more meetings - it seems only a matter of time before this separation in the Russian Church, by necessity for 70 years owing to the Communist occupation of Russia, will be over.
What probably will happen is both sides will sign an agreement and for the foreseeable future each will carry on as usual, except they will concelebrate. Multiple bishops in overlapping sees would be tolerated as long as the current hierarchs live.
How a merger might happen will be interesting. It would make sense, since ROCOR has established sees in the US with many congregations, for the few 'indult' MP churches in that country simply to join those dioceses. But when the MP agreed to create the Orthodox Church in America in 1970 it agreed not to expand, not to 'compete' with its daughter church. That's a tough one.
In any event, it really feels like the Soviet regime is gone and a restoration of apostolic church life among the Russians both there and here really can get under way.
</surface>
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« Last Edit: October 12, 2003, 06:00:07 PM by Serge »
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SamB
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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2003, 04:20:11 PM » |
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Exceedingly happy news, Serge.
Very glad to hear it. What of the relations with the other Orthodox Churches and concelebrating with their hierarchs? Will this have to wait until a full merger takes effect?
In IC XC
Samer
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David
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« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2003, 04:42:05 PM » |
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Glory to God in all things!
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"When looking at faults, use a mirror, not a telescope."
-Yazid Ibrahim
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The young fogey
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« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2003, 04:44:13 PM » |
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I have no idea, but ISTM it would only make sense if ROCOR concelebrated with everybody in the Orthodox communion the MP concelebrates with.
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David
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« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2003, 04:46:38 PM » |
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Serge, let us know when anything official is posted on the net, I want to spread the good news.
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"When looking at faults, use a mirror, not a telescope."
-Yazid Ibrahim
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Keble
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« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2003, 05:29:19 PM » |
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Serge, where on the ROCOR website is it? It's not opvious to me.
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The young fogey
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« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2003, 06:02:53 PM » |
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I don't see anything either. I meant future official announcements. You also can check the MP's site. |
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Orthodoc
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Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.
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« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2003, 07:40:23 PM » |
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It will be interesting what will happen with the ROCOR parishes here in the U.S.
According to the Tomos with the OCA, the MP promised not to increase its number of parishes by either accepting any parishes from other jurisdictions into its fold and not to set up any mission parishes.
Possibly what is now ROCOR will become its own self governing Russian diocese within the OCA like the Albanian, Bulgarian, Romanian, etc. This way it can continue to be self governing while at the the same time be part of the synod of OCA bishops and have an opportunity to administer to all the new Russian & Ukrainian immigrants.
But I guess thats too much to hope for.
Orthodoc
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« Last Edit: October 12, 2003, 07:41:22 PM by Orthodoc »
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Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
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The young fogey
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« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2003, 09:00:09 PM » |
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« Last Edit: October 12, 2003, 09:11:06 PM by Serge »
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Frobie
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« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2003, 10:25:29 PM » |
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ANATHEMA!!! TIME TO GO ROAC!
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Robert
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« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2003, 10:31:25 PM » |
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Amen, Frobisher!
ROAC HERE WE COME!
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JoeZollars
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« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2003, 10:49:31 PM » |
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Bobby, Frobisher, I couldn't have said it better myself.
Joe Zollars
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moronikos
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« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2003, 10:59:24 PM » |
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Bobby, Frobisher, I couldn't have said it better myself.
How Protestant of y'all. |
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JoeZollars
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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2003, 11:06:41 PM » |
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at least we won't be "dialoging" with prots and other assorted heretics.
Joe Zollars
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Mor Ephrem
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« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2003, 11:09:33 PM » |
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Yeah, but spawning more split-offs...  |
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"I'm a huge fan of Mor." - Carmen Electra Laying claim to the Phanar since 9 December 2003 |
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Jakub
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« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2003, 11:42:19 PM » |
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Ok guys, fill in this clueless fence dwelling Latin, why ROCA vs ROCOR ?
james
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An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.
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moronikos
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« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2003, 11:56:20 PM » |
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at least we won't be "dialoging" with prots and other assorted heretics.
Who's "we". You guys aren't part of any jurisdiction at all, right? Just "perfect church" wannabees? |
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moronikos
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« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2003, 11:57:50 PM » |
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Ok guys, fill in this clueless fence dwelling Latin, why ROCA vs ROCOR ?
james
ROCOR and ROCA are differing names for the same organization/synod? Are you asking ROCOR vs. ROAC? (that is different) |
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moronikos
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« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2003, 12:02:25 AM » |
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God bless the ROCOR-MP reunion!
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Jakub
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« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2003, 12:03:14 AM » |
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Yep,
Seems a leaning towards ROAC from most, why ?
Guess the forum header took a hit too !
james
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moronikos
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« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2003, 12:25:57 AM » |
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Well, I *think* Bobby was joking. From what I've seen, one of the other fellows changes affiliations everytime there is a full moon. From what I've heard, 85 percent of ROCOR clergy support the reunion.
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Frobie
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« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2003, 12:28:12 AM » |
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ROCOR is entering a new era of false ecumenism, folks. I suggest we make like Lot and enter holy ROAC.
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prodromos
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« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2003, 04:30:25 AM » |
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Matt,
I was under the distinct impression that you were Roman Catholic. When did you make the move to ROCOR which now necessitates your move to ROAC with the impending ROCOR-MP reunion?
unworthy John.
P.S. How's the beard?
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Justinianus
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« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2003, 08:12:33 AM » |
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I pray that such a union would make the Russian church stronger. I understand that the MP church has experienced damage as a result of Soviet repression and manipulation. It is possible that the Holy Spirit can work through this union. There is much the MP can gain from the union. The is much ROCOR can gain by the gift of giving. Putting politics aside and focusing on Christ, ROCOR can help the MP heal the damages caused by communism.
This may sound fluffy, but I have faith in the work of the Holy Spirit in Christ's Church.
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"If we truly think of Christ as our source of holiness, we shall refrain from anything wicked or impure in thought or act and thus show ourselves to be worthy bearers of his name. For the quality of holiness is shown not by what we say but by what w
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Frobie
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« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2003, 09:21:14 AM » |
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Ah John, you got me! LOL.
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Anastasios
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« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2003, 10:16:24 AM » |
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Moronikos and John,
Bobby and Matt are just joking around. :-) Joe Zollars is not.
anastasios
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Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.comDisclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons |
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Robert
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« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2003, 10:46:03 AM » |
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Joking about ROAC? Yes.
However, I wish there was a ROCOR church nearby.
Bobby
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JoeZollars
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« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2003, 10:51:08 AM » |
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Well Bobby if you were also a resident of this stinking cesspool, err I mean beutiful small town, I would be happy to give you a ride to Dormition Skete:).
Joe Zollars
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Keble
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« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2003, 11:16:34 AM » |
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However, I wish there was a ROCOR church nearby.
In Raleigh, you should be glad that there's anything besides baptodisterian churches! |
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Robert
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« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2003, 11:17:46 AM » |
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LOL!
Yes I am very fortunate to have an Antiochian, OCA, Coptic and 3 GOA churches in the immediate vicinity.
Bobby
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The young fogey
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« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2003, 11:17:49 AM » |
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I remember anastasios telling me once there is a teeny-tiny ROCOR church in those parts - I think it's Russian.
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Robert
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« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2003, 11:27:14 AM » |
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There used to be a ROCOR church. I talk with the priest on occasion, unfortunately they had to close down because they weren't getting any parishioners. But they have a parish down in SC that is very nice.
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2003, 11:33:01 AM » |
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One of my godsons, a member of this forum, is a tonsured Reader in the ROCOR. He told me that all of this was discussed with his priest at trapeza Sunday at his church in Connecticut and that the atmosphere was one of quiet rejoicing over the possibilities of reunion between the ROCOR and the MP (it's the purist converts, for the most part, who are balking about unity).
One realizes, of course, Joe, that the ROCOR was *never* meant to be in permanent separation from its Mother Church. What do you think "TEMPORARY Higher Administration of the Russian Church Abroad" means anyway?
As far as the ROAC goes, who gave it canonical autonomony? And which Orthodox Church (and I don't mean schismatics) recognizes the ROAC?
Hypo
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Jakub
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« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2003, 01:42:55 PM » |
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I thought being a RC was difficult these days, but with all these Eastern Church divisions is giving me much pain, frustration and confusion, and its not from meds or my favorite beverages.
james
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An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.
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ania
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« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2003, 10:10:28 AM » |
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I have no idea, but ISTM it would only make sense if ROCOR concelebrated with everybody in the Orthodox communion the MP concelebrates with.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that Serge, after all, no mater what anyone says, ROCOR has been concelebrating with the Serbs since the begining, & the Serbs have been concelebrating with MP, amoung others, that ROCOR hasn't concelebrated with. It's a rather sticky, murky playing field. Right now, there isn't any serious thought, much less talk about complete reunion with the MP. From what I gather (and I gather a lot), there will be talks about concelebrating, and about further talks & meetings with the MP about a possible reunion way in the future. I hope everyone's figured out by now that ROCOR doesn't in anyway ever move in a hurry. In general ROCOR has tendencies toward "manana manana." Anyway, time to work... Ania |
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Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
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Mexican
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« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2003, 08:14:12 PM » |
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Now.
1. Will the Moscow Patriarchate issue an official document condemning its previous coperation with the Soviet regimme, and a kind of "mea culpa" for this?
2. Will the Moscow Patriarchate leave ecumenicist organizations such as the WCC, and sever any contact with the Roman Catholic Church?
The ROCOR's struggle has had a lot to do with these issues, I doubt they'll join and accept the MP for free, giving up their venerable ressistence against the communist errors.
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ania
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« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2003, 11:03:26 AM » |
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1. Will the Moscow Patriarchate issue an official document condemning its previous coperation with the Soviet regimme, and a kind of "mea culpa" for this? It's quite possible, actually that they will. After all, they've already done it verbally, it'll take them little effort to move it onto paper. 2. Will the Moscow Patriarchate leave ecumenicist organizations such as the WCC, and sever any contact with the Roman Catholic Church? WHERE have you BEEN??? The MP doesn't participate in WCC anymore. If you want to cast that stone, remember that ROCOR once was involved with it too. If there are any MP clergy there, it is more than likely that they are there of their own volition, & not with the concent of their ruling heirarch. I just want to tell a story of something I heard when I went to Russia with my dad. He's very good friends with a proto-priest who teaches in the St. Tihon Theological Acadamy (a sort of Orthodox highschool/jr. college in Moscow), also at the seminary in Troista Sergiva Lavra, often does interviews on the radio & TV on all matters Orthodox, and lots of other stuff. To top it all of he's a really swell guy. Anyway, over tea at their apartment, my dad brought up the issue of ecuminism. Fr. Valintine answered so... "Well, of course, we needed to look into it, so we (the MP) formed a commitee, but nothing will ever come of it, there will be no movement towards it..." "How do you know?" asked my dad. "Well, first off, I'm on the committee." Since then, the MP has moved further & further away from ties with WCC. And as for the Catholics... well, didn't you notice that Pat. Alexei refuses to extend an invitation to the Pope to visit Russia, even though the Vatican is putting more & more pressure by way of bad press (I think there was another thread about that recently actually). They don't like the RCC over there. Anyway, long ramble, time to work. Ania |
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Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
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Mexican
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« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2003, 06:01:41 PM » |
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Hi Ania!
Don't think wrong I'm not anti-ecumenical or anything like that. I had posted the same questions in another thread about 3 months ago, and I just pasted the questions. I forgot to correct the WCC thing.
Regarding the ROCOR I already know about their contacts with Anglicans when it was being founded (but remember that the hierarch was deposed after that prayer service).
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sinjinsmythe
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« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2003, 10:29:39 PM » |
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Great..this is will only lead to more splintering and schism. More bickering among Orthodox. Why is this church so maligned by the bickering and squabbles? Why is that?[sarcasm] There should be a canon that says bickering and splintering are parts of the church[/sarcasm]As for the MP-ROCOR reuniting, I don't care personally...whatever. It won't make a difference to anyone outside of those churches.
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Life is just one disappointment after another.
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Anastasios
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« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2003, 11:21:39 PM » |
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Sure it will make a difference, sinjin. It will end a schism, and that is GOOD. Plus we will no longer have an undefined line as to who is Orthodox and who is schismatic. The splinter groups will all clearly be outside the Church.
anastasios
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Check out my personal website with 130+ articles: www.anastasioshudson.comDisclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons |
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ania
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« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2003, 11:08:00 AM » |
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Sinjin, if you don't care, why did you post? And it will effect many people, not just MP & ROCOR. There are the OC Bulgarians & Romanians who are in communion with ROCOR, but if the ROCOR concelebrates with the MP, which concelebrates with NC Romanians & Bulgarians, that will cause a huge huge huge problem. Then of course there are the Cyprian people, who have already said that they would stop concelebrating with ROCOR if ROCOR gets back together with the MP. Also it would mean that it would put ROCOR back in communion with the Japanese Orthodox Church, which is pretty cool concept. It'll cause a huge ripple effect all over the place.
Well, gotta go.
Ania
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Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
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Mexican
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« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2003, 12:42:00 PM » |
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Old Calendarists who are currently in communion with the ROCOR will most likely sever contacts with that Church if the Synod decides reunfication with the Moscow Patriarchate. The struggle of the Old Calendar Churches in Romania and Bulgaria, are not so related to doctrine issue (Ecumenism, etc) but to the situation in those Churches and the ilegitimacy of the Patriarchs who govern them. Only their resignation could restore this legitimacy. How would an Old Calendar Church who suffered persecutions under State Churches accept communion with them?
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JoeZollars
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« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2003, 03:28:14 PM » |
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I'm sure ROAC will welcome them! ROAC 4 ever!
Joe Zollars
sinner
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Keble
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« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2003, 03:47:50 PM » |
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How would an Old Calendar Church who suffered persecutions under State Churches accept communion with them?
Um, by forgiving them? |
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