Author Topic: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America  (Read 41013 times)

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Offline Lily

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2008, 12:02:20 PM »
Definitely Annunciation in Wauwautosa.  Very unusual and very, very American.  I wish I could have seen it with the original icons in place. 

Holy Virgin Cathedral in San Fransisco is amazing. 

The single most AMERICAN Orthodox Church I have ever been to:  St. Nicholas Church in Boscobel, WI (on the grounds of the Bulgarian St. Isaac of Syria Skete.)
The monks plan to paint icons covering the interior over the next few decades:


Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2008, 12:53:26 PM »
Definitely Annunciation in Wauwautosa.  Very unusual and very, very American.  I wish I could have seen it with the original icons in place. 
Isn't that a Frank Lloyd Wright design?
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline Lily

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2008, 01:04:14 PM »
Yes it is.  Good eye!  I never knew his wife was Greek Orthodox until I visited the church.  One of the parishioners gave us the low-down :)

Offline Elisha

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2008, 01:35:37 PM »
Does anyone have a link to inside pics of that Frank Lloyd-Wright church?  I can only find outside pics.

Also, following the link posted, I was wondering why the design looked familiar, and then it mentions it is similar to the Marin Civic Center (which is only 30 miles from me in Marin County).

Offline Lily

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2008, 01:48:04 PM »
I have a picture around somewhere, but I'll have to scan it in (once I find it.)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2008, 02:57:49 PM »
Yes it is.  Good eye!  I never knew his wife was Greek Orthodox until I visited the church.  One of the parishioners gave us the low-down :)

which "wife?"
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Lily

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2008, 04:02:50 PM »
Uh, Mrs. Frank Lloyd Wright? They didn't specify...

Offline Lily

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2008, 04:41:00 PM »
Here's a couple I found (taken with permission after Liturgy):
The altar from the balcony:

From the floor (you can't really see, but the aisles make the spokes of a Greek cross)

In the background are some of the original icons (that were replaced with the Byzantine ones.  The designs in the background formed a part of the design of the iconostasis (the circles, etc)  This is down in their social hall/chapel area.




Offline SiviSokol

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2008, 07:04:55 PM »
Ugh, looks like it should have a conversation pit.  FLW jumped the shark sometime in the mid-1930s, although I do like the Guggenheim.

St. Sava SOC, Merrillville:




St. Elijah SOC, Merrillville:




St. George SOC, Schererville (different than the other Orthodox St. George in Schererville mentioned earlier...)


« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 07:08:54 PM by SiviSokol »

Offline Keble

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2008, 07:10:26 PM »
Definitely Annunciation in Wauwautosa.  Very unusual and very, very American.  I wish I could have seen it with the original icons in place. 

Danger, St. Will Robinson!!!  ;D

This, btw, is about two miles from my house:


But it's Ukrainian Catholic. (The Ukrainian Orthodox church is about 1/2 mile in the other direction, but it isn't anything like as cool.)

Offline Lily

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2008, 07:16:28 PM »
Due to disrespectiful comments I've removed my photos of the interior of Annunciation in Wauwautosa.  Apologies to anyone who was genuinely interested in seeing this beautiful, American church.

Offline Elisha

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2008, 07:39:18 PM »
Due to disrespectiful comments I've removed my photos of the interior of Annunciation in Wauwautosa.  Apologies to anyone who was genuinely interested in seeing this beautiful, American church.

Was there more?  I still see them.  I'm genuinely interested in seeing them, but really, it confirms how modern architechts like FLW should NOT be designing Orthodox churches. 

Offline John of the North

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2008, 09:30:34 PM »
Definitely Annunciation in Wauwautosa.  Very unusual and very, very American.  I wish I could have seen it with the original icons in place.

The single most AMERICAN Orthodox Church I have ever been to:  St. Nicholas Church in Boscobel, WI (on the grounds of the Bulgarian St. Isaac of Syria Skete.)

How exactly is an American church different than all the others???
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2008, 10:54:56 PM »
Old Rite Church of the Nativity in Erie, PA (ROCOR):

http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?image=churchofthenativityxr2.jpg
http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20677158425ac1c79602er9.jpg
http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2067715846776f23e071xg0.jpg

Holy Epiphany in Boston, MA (ROCOR):

http://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1003173ey7.jpg
http://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1003197ni8.jpg
http://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1003176op2.jpg

Holy Cross Chapel in Brookline, MA (chapel of Holy Cross Seminary)

http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1003247jx2.jpg
http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture120sk4.jpg

New Gracanica Church in Third Lake, Illinois (has the most amazing iconography I have ever seen):

http://www.newgracanica.com/monastery.htm


Church of the Nativity, Holy Epiphany, and New Gracanica were all painted by the great iconographer Fr. Theodore Jurewicz who is a priest at Church of the Nativity. I have seen quite a bit of his work and he is one of the best.


« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 11:05:11 PM by Andrew21091 »

Offline Eleos

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2008, 12:46:52 AM »
Here's a couple I found (taken with permission after Liturgy):
The altar from the balcony:

From the floor (you can't really see, but the aisles make the spokes of a Greek cross)

In the background are some of the original icons (that were replaced with the Byzantine ones.  The designs in the background formed a part of the design of the iconostasis (the circles, etc)  This is down in their social hall/chapel area.




Dear Lily,
I hope that you will make these images available again.  I love Frank Lloyd Wright.  I had an opportunity to spend some time at the civic center in San Rafael which was designed by him in the same period.  He's an American treasure.  Orthodox American people who make fun of things Orthodox and American are in conflict with themselves.
Thanks
"The Unity of the Church, as Your Holinesses well know it, is the will of God and ought to be an inspiring example to all men. It should always be a help and not a hindrance to the unity of men of different religions."-Emperor Haile Selassie To the Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches 1965

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2008, 08:28:29 AM »
Uh, Mrs. Frank Lloyd Wright? They didn't specify...

The law and morality did.  There were several "Mrs." Wrights.  At one time.  And some were Mrs. Someone Else too at the time.

Case in point, Olga (Olgivanna) Ivanovna Lazovich, whom I think is the one being referred to here.  A devotee of the Theophist G. I. Gurdjieff, she was Mrs. Vlademar Hinzenberg when she had Wright's child Iovanna.  Miriam Noel was Mrs. Wright at the time. Olga ran everything at the institute, right down to dictating affairs (fornication) between students.  Iovanna's older sister, Svetlana Hinzenberg later changed her name to Wright and married at her mother's canivings one of Wright's students.  She was killed in a car crash, and Olga became convinced that Stalin's daughter Svetlana was a spiritual replacement for her daughter and actually succeeded in getting Svetlana Alliluyeva to come and marry the widowed student.  Svetlana left after a year, citing that she couldn't stand the oppression and cult of personality Mrs. Wright ran at the institute.

Orthodox?  Hardly.

When the first Mrs. Wright died, Frank didn't know for weeks.  When he found out he broke down and cried, and reprouched his oldest son (whom he abandoned along with mom) "Why didn't you tell me?"  "Why would I?" Jr. retorted, "you didn't care about her when she lived.  Why do you care now that she is dead?"

A Unitarian from a line of Unitarian ministers, he designed their Chicago " unity temple."  My son, when he was 2, used to stand up and cross himself whenever a church was on TV.  When they were showing this "temple" on a program, he didn't move.  I remarked, "well, it's official whether they're Christian or not. Not."

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2008, 08:38:20 AM »
Due to disrespectiful comments I've removed my photos of the interior of Annunciation in Wauwautosa.  Apologies to anyone who was genuinely interested in seeing this beautiful, American church.
So you took your toys and went home?

The thing looks like a flying saucer has landed.  Not that that's bad, nor do I think it unorthodox, let alone heterodox.  In fact, I find it rather ingenious.  But the ressemblance to robbie can't be denied, nor does it make Mr. and "Mrs." Wright Orthodox.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2008, 08:44:34 AM »
Old Rite Church of the Nativity in Erie, PA (ROCOR):

http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?image=churchofthenativityxr2.jpg
http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20677158425ac1c79602er9.jpg
http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2067715846776f23e071xg0.jpg

Holy Epiphany in Boston, MA (ROCOR):

http://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1003173ey7.jpg
http://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1003197ni8.jpg
http://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1003176op2.jpg

Holy Cross Chapel in Brookline, MA (chapel of Holy Cross Seminary)

http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1003247jx2.jpg
http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture120sk4.jpg

New Gracanica Church in Third Lake, Illinois (has the most amazing iconography I have ever seen):

http://www.newgracanica.com/monastery.htm


Church of the Nativity, Holy Epiphany, and New Gracanica were all painted by the great iconographer Fr. Theodore Jurewicz who is a priest at Church of the Nativity. I have seen quite a bit of his work and he is one of the best.




When were you here to see New Grancanica (this is the monastery of the Theotokos I've been mentioning), i.e. in my neck of the woods?

I spent an afternoon with my sons just pointing out the icons.  I was quite pleased that they (at the time 8 and 6) could identify most of the icons, even some of the more obscure ones.  My younger, Stephan, was thrilled with so many icons of his patron St. Stephane the protomartyr.

A Bible in fresco, heaven on earth.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Lily

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2008, 11:10:33 AM »
First of all, I never claimed Frank Lloyd Wright was Orthodox.  A MEMBER OF THE CONGREGATION OF THE CHURCH FRANK LLOYD WRIGHT DESIGNED told me that HIS WIFE AT THE TIME was Greek Orthodox.  I have zero reason to distrust that information.



Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2008, 11:21:40 AM »
Due to disrespectiful comments I've removed my photos of the interior of Annunciation in Wauwautosa.  Apologies to anyone who was genuinely interested in seeing this beautiful, American church.
So you took your toys and went home?

The thing looks like a flying saucer has landed.  Not that that's bad, nor do I think it unorthodox, let alone heterodox.  In fact, I find it rather ingenious.  But the ressemblance to robbie can't be denied, nor does it make Mr. and "Mrs." Wright Orthodox.
Actually I think it's a neat take-off on the Roman dome.
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Offline Chacci

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2008, 11:58:03 AM »
Saint Peter and Paul Orthodox Church in Salt Lake City, Utah is a converted Jewish synagogue.. talk about fulfillment theology!!!

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2008, 12:50:49 PM »
Due to disrespectiful comments I've removed my photos of the interior of Annunciation in Wauwautosa.  Apologies to anyone who was genuinely interested in seeing this beautiful, American church.
I'm sorry you did. I love Lloyd Wright's architecture. In fact, my cooperating teacher for my student teaching, before moving to Springfield, had previously owned a Lloyd Wright house along the Mississippi just north of St. Louis in Quincy, Illinois. Beautiful house.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2008, 01:34:05 PM »
First of all, I never claimed Frank Lloyd Wright was Orthodox.  A MEMBER OF THE CONGREGATION OF THE CHURCH FRANK LLOYD WRIGHT DESIGNED told me that HIS WIFE AT THE TIME was Greek Orthodox.  I have zero reason to distrust that information.




Just history.  His "wife" was Montengrin, and married to a Russian, and about as Orthodox as Madame Blavatsky and Mr. Blagojevich.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #68 on: December 10, 2008, 01:36:45 PM »
Due to disrespectiful comments I've removed my photos of the interior of Annunciation in Wauwautosa.  Apologies to anyone who was genuinely interested in seeing this beautiful, American church.
So you took your toys and went home?

The thing looks like a flying saucer has landed.  Not that that's bad, nor do I think it unorthodox, let alone heterodox.  In fact, I find it rather ingenious.  But the ressemblance to robbie can't be denied, nor does it make Mr. and "Mrs." Wright Orthodox.

Actually I think it's a neat take-off on the Roman dome.

I do too.  Doesnt' change the resemblence to robbie.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Elisha

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2008, 02:25:36 PM »


When were you here to see New Grancanica (this is the monastery of the Theotokos I've been mentioning), i.e. in my neck of the woods?

I spent an afternoon with my sons just pointing out the icons.  I was quite pleased that they (at the time 8 and 6) could identify most of the icons, even some of the more obscure ones.  My younger, Stephan, was thrilled with so many icons of his patron St. Stephane the protomartyr.

A Bible in fresco, heaven on earth.

Just a note to point out:  the monastery's website says that the icons are acrylic on dry plaster.  This is NOT fresco.  Fresco is on wet plaster and does not use acrylic paints (maybe after the plaster dries the following days for details, acrylic might work).  This is a big difference.  All the old, traditional churches in Serbia though are done in fresco.  Recently, people are often referring to any large wall murals as frescoes, which is not accurate.  Not trying to denigrate the beauty of the church though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresco

Offline Keble

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #70 on: December 10, 2008, 10:54:07 PM »
Actually, Lily, I quite like the interior. The exterior, though, needs a BIG cross on top. And in the land of strange buildings, it isn't even in the running. There are many, many RC and Lutheran buildings that look like a sophomore architecture student's response to "design something really striking that nobody would ever mistake for a house of worship."

At St. Nicholas in DC, when they were going to do the walls, the freshly arrived iconographers said, "we need 15,000 fresh eggs." But then they looked again at the old iconostasis, which was done in egg tempera and which had color-shifted badly, and they decided to use acrylic instead. They then proceeded to fill the sanctuary with scaffolding in the middle of some major celebration. A particularly striking detail is that the icon of Tikhon on the iconostasis appears to have been done from a photograph, as it is conspicuously more realistic than the others (particularly the Martyrs of the Revolution in the back, most of whom can only be identified from their clothing).

Offline GreekChef

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2008, 12:15:10 AM »
If I may just comment on the whole Annunciation, WI thing...

My husband was assigned as the assistant priest there for about a year until last May.  I got to know the parishioners and clergy (and former clergy) there quite well.  I read all of the history of the church (they have kept an archive) and, of course, got the complete history from the people as well.  I'll just attempt to say a few things with truth and love.

First, Lily, have you ever seen the original icons?  They are not icons at all.  They are pictures that were painted by someone in Frank Lloyd Wright's studio.  The original ones are in the chapel in the basement.  Fr. Jim did a wonderful thing for the parish by having them removed and proper ones installed.  They may have been nice for a museum, but were in no way proper for worship.  They were a distraction, and not "windows to heaven" as they should have been.

Second, from a liturgical standpoint, the church is almost impossible to serve in for a priest, and equally impossible for a congregant to participate in the Liturgy.  For instance, the original altar table was a half moon shape.  In the service of ordination, the priest or deacon being ordained is supposed to kiss all FOUR corners of the table.  That was impossible until Fr. Jim had a rectangular top put on.  For the congregation, only about 1/3 are even facing the altar.  The rest are forced to stare at eachother (by design-- if you turn your body uncomfortably, you can face the altar that you can't see).  One may as well go home and listen to the DL on CD, as participating is difficult (even now it is difficult, I can only imagine how it was before Fr. Jim improved the situation).  The theology behind church architecture and icons was completely ignored and destroyed in this church. 

This church was the priest's attempt at the "American Church."  He attempted to bring Orthodoxy to America and America to Orthodoxy.  It failed, however, as the Orthodox world rejected it and America failed to convert as a result of seeing it.  He was also quoted as saying that to him, Frank Lloyd Wright was "God on Earth."  It was more a shrine to FLW than a church, unfortunately.  And the congregation was taught some terrible things in the process.  He told them that they were a "cup of faith" and that they should do "their thing" in their "cup" (the nave) while he does "his thing" in the altar.  I have no doubt that the priest's intentions were good (having not known him personally), but the damage was done.  And everyone's eyes needed to be kept on the ball-- God.  They weren't.

All that being said (and I mean no disrespect in any of it), I have a deep love for this church.  It is, spiritually, a beautiful parish full of wonderful, loving Christians.  As church buildings go, it is NOT my favorite.  As Frank Lloyd Wright buildings go, it is DEFINITELY my favorite.  I do not think we should glorify it as the most beautiful or ideal of Orthodox Churches, simply because it is, in fact, a barrier to and distraction from worship. 

But, neither should we hate it or call it an abomination or curse it, as it IS God's house, and it IS where we come to receive Him in the Eucharist.  Because of that fact, and that fact alone (as for any church), we should love and respect it.  The building grows on you after a while, for its unique personality and because I developed a relationship with the people and, of course, received Christ there.  And as a building goes, I think it is a beautiful one.  As an Orthodox Church goes, it would not be the ideal for me.  I believe in leaving the secular to the secular and cherishing and glorifying the sacred, not destroying or watering it down for aesthetic appeal.  We are Orthodox before we are American, and we should all (myself included) remember that. 

My understanding from my time there was that Frank Lloyd Wright's wife, by the way, was Serbian Orthodox by birth, but had not practiced since she was a child (I believe as a result of communism).  Unfortunately, the building committee for the church only gave FLW a list of a few requirements (such as "the altar must face east") for him to design around.  The rest, they left to Mrs. Wright's memory and his artistic inspiration (totally unheard of in Orthodoxy, by the way), which, obviously, did not serve them well, or they would not have had so many problems. 

Also, I'm not sure if Keble was commenting on Annunciation, WI in his last post (cause I kinda skimmed a lot of the thread), but it does have a big cross on top.  Fr. Jim added that as well.

I hope I haven't offended.
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Matthew 18:5

Offline Lily

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2008, 10:34:58 AM »
If I may just comment on the whole Annunciation, WI thing...

My husband was assigned as the assistant priest there for about a year until last May.  I got to know the parishioners and clergy (and former clergy) there quite well.  I read all of the history of the church (they have kept an archive) and, of course, got the complete history from the people as well.  I'll just attempt to say a few things with truth and love.

First, Lily, have you ever seen the original icons?  They are not icons at all.  They are pictures that were painted by someone in Frank Lloyd Wright's studio.  The original ones are in the chapel in the basement.  Fr. Jim did a wonderful thing for the parish by having them removed and proper ones installed.  They may have been nice for a museum, but were in no way proper for worship.  They were a distraction, and not "windows to heaven" as they should have been.

Second, from a liturgical standpoint, the church is almost impossible to serve in for a priest, and equally impossible for a congregant to participate in the Liturgy.  For instance, the original altar table was a half moon shape.  In the service of ordination, the priest or deacon being ordained is supposed to kiss all FOUR corners of the table.  That was impossible until Fr. Jim had a rectangular top put on.  For the congregation, only about 1/3 are even facing the altar.  The rest are forced to stare at eachother (by design-- if you turn your body uncomfortably, you can face the altar that you can't see).  One may as well go home and listen to the DL on CD, as participating is difficult (even now it is difficult, I can only imagine how it was before Fr. Jim improved the situation).  The theology behind church architecture and icons was completely ignored and destroyed in this church. 

This church was the priest's attempt at the "American Church."  He attempted to bring Orthodoxy to America and America to Orthodoxy.  It failed, however, as the Orthodox world rejected it and America failed to convert as a result of seeing it.  He was also quoted as saying that to him, Frank Lloyd Wright was "God on Earth."  It was more a shrine to FLW than a church, unfortunately.  And the congregation was taught some terrible things in the process.  He told them that they were a "cup of faith" and that they should do "their thing" in their "cup" (the nave) while he does "his thing" in the altar.  I have no doubt that the priest's intentions were good (having not known him personally), but the damage was done.  And everyone's eyes needed to be kept on the ball-- God.  They weren't.

All that being said (and I mean no disrespect in any of it), I have a deep love for this church.  It is, spiritually, a beautiful parish full of wonderful, loving Christians.  As church buildings go, it is NOT my favorite.  As Frank Lloyd Wright buildings go, it is DEFINITELY my favorite.  I do not think we should glorify it as the most beautiful or ideal of Orthodox Churches, simply because it is, in fact, a barrier to and distraction from worship. 

But, neither should we hate it or call it an abomination or curse it, as it IS God's house, and it IS where we come to receive Him in the Eucharist.  Because of that fact, and that fact alone (as for any church), we should love and respect it.  The building grows on you after a while, for its unique personality and because I developed a relationship with the people and, of course, received Christ there.  And as a building goes, I think it is a beautiful one.  As an Orthodox Church goes, it would not be the ideal for me.  I believe in leaving the secular to the secular and cherishing and glorifying the sacred, not destroying or watering it down for aesthetic appeal.  We are Orthodox before we are American, and we should all (myself included) remember that. 

My understanding from my time there was that Frank Lloyd Wright's wife, by the way, was Serbian Orthodox by birth, but had not practiced since she was a child (I believe as a result of communism).  Unfortunately, the building committee for the church only gave FLW a list of a few requirements (such as "the altar must face east") for him to design around.  The rest, they left to Mrs. Wright's memory and his artistic inspiration (totally unheard of in Orthodoxy, by the way), which, obviously, did not serve them well, or they would not have had so many problems. 

Also, I'm not sure if Keble was commenting on Annunciation, WI in his last post (cause I kinda skimmed a lot of the thread), but it does have a big cross on top.  Fr. Jim added that as well.

I hope I haven't offended.
Pray for me a sinner,
Presbytera Mari

Thank you for your comments, GreekChef- it's nice to hear from someone on the "inside."  I've only visited the church once, and was made very welcome when I was there.  I do still wish I had seen the original icons or "icons" in place, but I understand now why they were removed.  I do remember they weren't able to process through the aisles during the Great Entrance.   I still think the design is amazing, and the American feel made us feel at home.

Your comments about what was going on before Fr. Jim's time help explain a few comments that didn't make sense to us as visitors during his sermon. 

Offline stashko

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2008, 08:19:47 PM »


When were you here to see New Grancanica (this is the monastery of the Theotokos I've been mentioning), i.e. in my neck of the woods?

I spent an afternoon with my sons just pointing out the icons.  I was quite pleased that they (at the time 8 and 6) could identify most of the icons, even some of the more obscure ones.  My younger, Stephan, was thrilled with so many icons of his patron St. Stephane the protomartyr.

A Bible in fresco, heaven on earth.

Just a note to point out:  the monastery's website says that the icons are acrylic on dry plaster.  This is NOT fresco.  Fresco is on wet plaster and does not use acrylic paints (maybe after the plaster dries the following days for details, acrylic might work).  This is a big difference.  All the old, traditional churches in Serbia though are done in fresco.  Recently, people are often referring to any large wall murals as frescoes, which is not accurate.  Not trying to denigrate the beauty of the church though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresco


There not painted on the bare wall ..i believe there painted on  canvas and stuck to the wall,,,,if  rain gets in anywhere it will lift the canvas from the wall..
i witnessed this at the old St.Sava monastery in libertyville illinois...i use to be a altar boy there with my brother.....SmileyCentral.com" border="0
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Elisha

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2008, 08:29:26 PM »


When were you here to see New Grancanica (this is the monastery of the Theotokos I've been mentioning), i.e. in my neck of the woods?

I spent an afternoon with my sons just pointing out the icons.  I was quite pleased that they (at the time 8 and 6) could identify most of the icons, even some of the more obscure ones.  My younger, Stephan, was thrilled with so many icons of his patron St. Stephane the protomartyr.

A Bible in fresco, heaven on earth.

Just a note to point out:  the monastery's website says that the icons are acrylic on dry plaster.  This is NOT fresco.  Fresco is on wet plaster and does not use acrylic paints (maybe after the plaster dries the following days for details, acrylic might work).  This is a big difference.  All the old, traditional churches in Serbia though are done in fresco.  Recently, people are often referring to any large wall murals as frescoes, which is not accurate.  Not trying to denigrate the beauty of the church though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresco


There not painted on the bare wall ..i believe there painted on  canvas and stuck to the wall,,,,if  rain gets in anywhere it will lift the canvas from the wall..
i witnessed this at the old St.Sava monastery in libertyville illinois...i use to be a altar boy there with my brother.....SmileyCentral.com" border="0

I'm pretty sure that the website says acrylic on dry plaster, so not canvas - still, not real frescoes.  The beautiful Serbian church in Sacramento I think is this - I saw the acrylic flaking off the wall in the corner - I think due to leaks.  We've had leaks in our church (finally fixed!) in Santa Rosa, CA, but the water just trickled down the frescoes (real ones) - not enough to damage them, as they are much more resilient.  The small marks can be easily washed or touched up to fix.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #75 on: December 11, 2008, 09:45:19 PM »
Actually, Lily, I quite like the interior. The exterior, though, needs a BIG cross on top. And in the land of strange buildings, it isn't even in the running. There are many, many RC and Lutheran buildings that look like a sophomore architecture student's response to "design something really striking that nobody would ever mistake for a house of worship."
GOOD LORD YES.  At least the Greek Church can be seen as a Church, and a updated traditional one at that. On the outside at least.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 09:49:15 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline dirtyharry667

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #76 on: February 27, 2009, 04:16:23 PM »
Well, I might as well put in a plug for our very own building ... the Macedonian Orthodox Cathedral of the Dormition of the Virgin Mary in Columbus (Reynoldsburg), Ohio

http://www.macedonianchurch.org

http://www.macedonianchurch.org/gallery2.php

and

http://www.akmpe.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=702&Itemid=2

The Greek Church here is also nice. 

http://www.greekcathedral.com

Actually, both churches were built by the same architect (Kontogiannis & Associates) and contractor.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 04:19:11 PM by dirtyharry667 »
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Offline admiralnick

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Re: Best Orthodox Church Buildings in North America
« Reply #77 on: February 27, 2009, 06:14:29 PM »
Please hang onto your pictures instead of directly posting them to the forum. When the front page of the website is restored, we will be posting galleries with pictures of various Orthodox Churches. Some of you who have been here before the front page destruction remember I had a collection going. In the mean time if you have pictures, please send them to ocnet.photos@gmail.com. I promise they will be added when the front page returns. I will accept all pictures of churches from Individual contributors. I will not be going link by link to grab pictures however. So if you take pictures of a church while on vacation, please send them. Also, take pictures of your own church and submit those as well. Even though you've been there for X number of years, many of us have never seen your church. If there's any questions about content or submission guidelines, please feel free to contact me.

Thanks!

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« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 06:15:19 PM by admiralnick »
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