Author Topic: Strange icons  (Read 445671 times)

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Offline LBK

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #900 on: February 14, 2015, 08:24:10 AM »
It is indeed a watermark, put there by the Greek ecclesiastical goods company called Skordilis. Here is the same icon, from their website:



One of the many pages featuring icons from this website:

http://www.ekklisiastika-eidi.gr/index.php?instance=products&pcid=5&category_id=4
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #901 on: February 14, 2015, 10:26:30 AM »
Good to know.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #902 on: February 22, 2015, 10:10:04 PM »
St. Constantine appearing to St Paisios, is the light depicted around St. Constantine improper?


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Offline LBK

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #903 on: February 22, 2015, 10:29:18 PM »
St. Constantine appearing to St Paisios, is the light depicted around St. Constantine improper?




Yes.

Here are a couple of examples of icons of the Visitation to St Sergius of Radonezh of the Mother of God and Apostles Peter and John. Neither show mandorlas surrounding the heavenly visitors, as is proper:





« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 10:29:47 PM by LBK »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #904 on: February 22, 2015, 10:47:46 PM »
Thanks.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #905 on: February 26, 2015, 12:21:08 PM »
St. Constantine appearing to St Paisios, is the light depicted around St. Constantine improper?




Often wrong, not only around here, but isn't that blue color reserved for Christ, as the Uncreated Light?
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #906 on: February 26, 2015, 12:31:02 PM »
I usually refrain from commenting upon icons and threads relating to icons. But I have to note that sometimes, we tend to forget when analyzing icons deriving from the period between the fall of Constantinople through the westernizing era of Peter the Great and the introduction of truly western depictions, that the traditions of iconography were often carried on by painters untrained in the specifics of iconography and the more scholarly aspects of 'required canonical components.' As moderns, we tend, in my opinion, to be overly critical of the same. I suspect that the venerable monks and nuns where the greatest deposit of such 15th-18th century compositions have been preserved, often at great risk to the monastic communities,  would take issue with us in that respect.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 12:31:35 PM by podkarpatska »

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #907 on: February 26, 2015, 01:51:49 PM »
I usually refrain from commenting upon icons and threads relating to icons. But I have to note that sometimes, we tend to forget when analyzing icons deriving from the period between the fall of Constantinople through the westernizing era of Peter the Great and the introduction of truly western depictions, that the traditions of iconography were often carried on by painters untrained in the specifics of iconography and the more scholarly aspects of 'required canonical components.' As moderns, we tend, in my opinion, to be overly critical of the same. I suspect that the venerable monks and nuns where the greatest deposit of such 15th-18th century compositions have been preserved, often at great risk to the monastic communities,  would take issue with us in that respect.

I don't know when the icon I posted a picture of was painted. It looks modern to me.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #908 on: February 26, 2015, 02:53:41 PM »
I usually refrain from commenting upon icons and threads relating to icons. But I have to note that sometimes, we tend to forget when analyzing icons deriving from the period between the fall of Constantinople through the westernizing era of Peter the Great and the introduction of truly western depictions, that the traditions of iconography were often carried on by painters untrained in the specifics of iconography and the more scholarly aspects of 'required canonical components.' As moderns, we tend, in my opinion, to be overly critical of the same. I suspect that the venerable monks and nuns where the greatest deposit of such 15th-18th century compositions have been preserved, often at great risk to the monastic communities,  would take issue with us in that respect.

I don't know when the icon I posted a picture of was painted. It looks modern to me.

Just a general comment...

Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #909 on: February 26, 2015, 03:09:05 PM »
Icon of saint martyr Harinton, a monk who was beheaded by the Albanian terrorists in Kosovo in 1999.

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #910 on: February 27, 2015, 07:30:53 AM »
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #911 on: March 01, 2015, 10:09:26 AM »
What is she holding and who is she?
And WHERE do you people come up with this stuff?
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #912 on: March 01, 2015, 01:08:35 PM »
What is she holding and who is she?
And WHERE do you people come up with this stuff?

A long time ago, the Church allowed female deacons. Maybe she is one of them.

I hope that isn't a rock.
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Offline IXOYE

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #913 on: March 01, 2015, 02:00:27 PM »
What is she holding and who is she?
And WHERE do you people come up with this stuff?

^ That seems to be an icon of St. Stephen holding a stone - the instrument of his martyrdom.

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #914 on: March 01, 2015, 02:17:24 PM »
What is she holding and who is she?
And WHERE do you people come up with this stuff?

^ That seems to be an icon of St. Stephen holding a stone - the instrument of his martyrdom.
Exactly. And moreover, there is written in Church Slavonic this is st. Stephen :laugh:


Something I found yesterday:

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Offline biro

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #915 on: March 01, 2015, 02:22:29 PM »
What is she holding and who is she?
And WHERE do you people come up with this stuff?

^ That seems to be an icon of St. Stephen holding a stone - the instrument of his martyrdom.

I stand corrected.  :)
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Offline Peacemaker

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #916 on: March 01, 2015, 02:31:51 PM »


Nazi serpents

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #917 on: March 01, 2015, 02:36:52 PM »
The Eye of God icon


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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #918 on: March 01, 2015, 02:37:55 PM »


Nazi serpents

Wow. I think I've seen something similar (maybe even also with st. Gorazd, but I'm not sure). But I suppose it's even rather a "schlock" icon
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Offline biro

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #919 on: March 01, 2015, 02:42:43 PM »
Interesting touch with the guns being buried underneath him.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #920 on: March 01, 2015, 02:44:18 PM »
I once saw an icon in a monastery that had a name that sounded like "Protector from the Nazis" and it showed Nazi forces on one side of the icon and an Orthodox Church with a priest and parishioners and the Theotokos on the other side. I can't find a picture of it but I guess there is a great story about how nazi forces couldn't get to this church no matter how hard they tried, as if some wall was in the way.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 02:45:24 PM by Peacemaker »

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #921 on: March 01, 2015, 03:34:31 PM »
The Eye of God icon



Looks like a rug.
And a blasphemous one at that.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 03:35:20 PM by LenInSebastopol »
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Offline biro

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #922 on: March 01, 2015, 03:42:19 PM »
I have a small one like that, only it's all red tones, no blue.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #923 on: March 01, 2015, 11:41:56 PM »
Interesting touch with the guns being buried underneath him.

Looks like its meant to be guns and barbed wire in Hades. Pretty relevant to the time (and still today).
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #924 on: March 02, 2015, 03:36:15 AM »
Interesting touch with the guns being buried underneath him.

Looks like its meant to be guns and barbed wire in Hades. Pretty relevant to the time (and still today).

I found some info on the icon
"Bishop Gorazd of Prague, given name Matěj Pavlík (May 26, 1879 – September 4, 1942), was the hierarch of the revived Orthodox Church in Moravia, the Church of Czechoslovakia, after World War I. During World War II, having provided refuge for the assassins of SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Reinhard Heydrich, called The Hangman of Prague, in the cathedral of Saints Cyril and Methodius in Prague, Gorazd took full responsibility for protecting the patriots after the Schutzstaffel found them in the crypt of the cathedral. This act guaranteed his execution, thus his martyrdom, during the reprisals that followed. His feast day is celebrated on August 22 (OC) or September 4 (NC)."
http://byztex.blogspot.com/2014/09/not-often-you-see-nazi-serpent-in-icon.html

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #925 on: March 02, 2015, 05:28:18 PM »


This icon can be found in a monastery in the Jordan.

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #926 on: March 02, 2015, 05:49:05 PM »
Strange it may seem, but the Icon of "the Milk-Giver" is an ancient composition whose original can be found in the iconostasis of the Hilandar monastery on Mount Athos.

More here.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #927 on: March 02, 2015, 06:21:11 PM »
It's common enough in East and West, as far as I know. We can be quick to decide an icon is "strange" without understanding.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #928 on: March 02, 2015, 09:29:18 PM »
I love that icon.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #929 on: March 02, 2015, 10:02:43 PM »
I've just never seen anything like it before.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #930 on: March 02, 2015, 10:13:01 PM »
Starting about 1800 Europe started to censor a lot of things like that.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #931 on: March 03, 2015, 04:27:10 AM »
Starting about 1800 Europe started to censor a lot of things like that.

My first thought was: I wonder what is stranger, the Icon or the culture that finds it strange.
So the "european culture" it is. Strange Europeans...
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Offline Peacemaker

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #932 on: March 03, 2015, 04:52:10 AM »
Starting about 1800 Europe started to censor a lot of things like that.

My first thought was: I wonder what is stranger, the Icon or the culture that finds it strange.
So the "european culture" it is. Strange Europeans...

Well it's the Theotokos so for me I don't picture her like that. I don't know how to explain it, her breast is hanging out. I know that's a natural thing for a mother to do with her shild. I guess it has something to due with the honor we give her that makes it weird to see. Then again, there are icons of Christ being baptized naked in Jordan so who knows *shrug*
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 04:53:02 AM by Peacemaker »

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #933 on: March 03, 2015, 05:56:59 AM »
Starting about 1800 Europe started to censor a lot of things like that.

My first thought was: I wonder what is stranger, the Icon or the culture that finds it strange.
So the "european culture" it is. Strange Europeans...

Well it's the Theotokos so for me I don't picture her like that. I don't know how to explain it, her breast is hanging out. I know that's a natural thing for a mother to do with her shild. I guess it has something to due with the honor we give her that makes it weird to see. Then again, there are icons of Christ being baptized naked in Jordan so who knows *shrug*

This Icon does very much show Her Motherhood in a very accessible and universal way. Somehow some cultures have associated this in beautiful part in public form with shameful.

Having 4 sisters makes me understand that part somewhat... on the other hand... not at all...

now I am confused...
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #934 on: March 03, 2015, 07:07:45 AM »
Starting about 1800 Europe started to censor a lot of things like that.

My first thought was: I wonder what is stranger, the Icon or the culture that finds it strange.
So the "european culture" it is. Strange Europeans...

Well it's the Theotokos so for me I don't picture her like that. I don't know how to explain it, her breast is hanging out. I know that's a natural thing for a mother to do with her shild. I guess it has something to due with the honor we give her that makes it weird to see. Then again, there are icons of Christ being baptized naked in Jordan so who knows *shrug*

Volnutt's point stands.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #935 on: March 03, 2015, 07:14:28 AM »
I made a point? Where? I need to photograph it for proof!


I like the breast feeding icons. A nice witness to Christ's humanity.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #936 on: March 03, 2015, 11:49:10 AM »
Starting about 1800 Europe started to censor a lot of things like that.

My first thought was: I wonder what is stranger, the Icon or the culture that finds it strange.
So the "european culture" it is. Strange Europeans...

'Round about the time Queen Victoria began to overtake the Blessed Mother in the world's affections ...
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #937 on: March 03, 2015, 11:51:37 AM »
It's a very satisfying type of icon for small children and mothers, and those who have a heart for them. Unlike Mor, I was not tender toward children as a young man, but how God -- or shall I say the Blessed Mother -- has stealthily changed my heart over the years.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #938 on: March 03, 2015, 03:53:40 PM »



 A nice witness to Christ's humanity.

I never thought of it like that. That's a nice way to look at it. The same can be said about the Panagia because she is in a vulnerable state. Can you identify breast feeding as vulnerability?

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #939 on: March 03, 2015, 04:04:08 PM »
Definitely.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #940 on: March 04, 2015, 03:02:26 AM »
Can you identify breast feeding as vulnerability?

Probably only in a modern context. I think in the ancient world ("Blessed are the paps that gave suck!"), breastfeeding was probably a symbol of -- ability. The tenderness would be present in any case.

Nowadays fecundity is not valued in the way it was in the ancient world, which held it higher than virility for admirability, usefulness, and connections to the spiritual and the moral. Nowadays we inhabit a world of such artificiality that we would seem like beings from another planet if we dropped into any other time or culture and made our reactions manifest.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #941 on: March 04, 2015, 03:30:29 AM »
Starting about 1800 Europe started to censor a lot of things like that.

My first thought was: I wonder what is stranger, the Icon or the culture that finds it strange.
So the "european culture" it is. Strange Europeans...

'Round about the time Queen Victoria began to overtake the Blessed Mother in the world's affections ...

I don't think there are many paintings of Queen Victoria doing this with ecstatic admirers.

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #942 on: March 04, 2015, 03:32:16 AM »
Not the same subject, at all, but just wait till you folks find the depictions of the Child Jesus holding his penis, which were quite prevalent for centuries in the West.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #943 on: March 04, 2015, 04:41:02 AM »
Not the same subject, at all, but just wait till you folks find the depictions of the Child Jesus holding his penis, which were quite prevalent for centuries in the West.

Art class in college was boring.
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Offline mike

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #944 on: March 04, 2015, 12:12:14 PM »
Starting about 1800 Europe started to censor a lot of things like that.

My first thought was: I wonder what is stranger, the Icon or the culture that finds it strange.
So the "european culture" it is. Strange Europeans...

Well it's the Theotokos so for me I don't picture her like that. I don't know how to explain it, her breast is hanging out. I know that's a natural thing for a mother to do with her shild. I guess it has something to due with the honor we give her that makes it weird to see. Then again, there are icons of Christ being baptized naked in Jordan so who knows *shrug*

We have a thread for people like you: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,48580.0.html

Not the same subject, at all, but just wait till you folks find the depictions of the Child Jesus holding his penis, which were quite prevalent for centuries in the West.

And how do you think, He was peeing.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 12:12:57 PM by mike »
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