Author Topic: Strange icons  (Read 70529 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,539
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #675 on: July 17, 2014, 07:18:09 PM »


Wow. Just wow.

The robe is wrapped around both Christ and the Theotokos?

I see His head, hand, and feet.

It is odd.

The description I included pretty much says that it's of Christ's removal from the cross. Beyond that I'm not entirely sure.

What an addition to my schlock file! The Salvador Dali description suits it perfectly. It's just as weird and disturbing as the triple-headed Trinities, as well as being way, way off theologically.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,175
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #676 on: July 17, 2014, 07:24:04 PM »
It's like a levitation magic routine!


Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,539
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #677 on: July 17, 2014, 07:42:40 PM »
It's like a levitation magic routine!



My thought as well ....  :o :P :D
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Porter ODoran

  • "Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,285
    • Facebook page
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #678 on: July 17, 2014, 08:00:15 PM »
I imagine an accurate name for it would be something like "The Pieta Both Crucified and Enthroned".
One hides amid pornography, angry music, television that shows the worst of mankind, misanthropic politics, an internet populace led by all the passions: and then one asks, "Where is God?"


This member is no longer active.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,539
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #679 on: July 17, 2014, 08:02:45 PM »
I imagine an accurate name for it would be something like "The Pieta Both Crucified and Enthroned".

It's not worth such dignity ....
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 08:03:22 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,175
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #680 on: July 17, 2014, 08:37:11 PM »
With zero disrespect (or at least none more than then She is suffering in this icon already)

may I suggest she appears to be sneaking Our Lord into the cinema, under her overly large cloak?

"Our Lady of the one ticket-two entries", comes to mind.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 08:37:40 PM by DeniseDenise »

Online Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,754
  • "I pledge allegiance to the flag..."
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #681 on: July 20, 2014, 12:07:51 AM »
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Quote
Bartholomew, 270th Archbishop of Constantinople-New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch, is spiritual leader to 300 million Orthodox Christians throughout the world.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,539
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #682 on: July 20, 2014, 12:14:03 AM »


The Matrioshka doll "icon". It's the equivalent of the equally uncanonical Paternity. It has the added bonus of the mother of St Anna standing behind her daughter. Most versions I've seen of this schlock omit her.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,758
  • Pray for me, a sinner.
    • Blog
  • Faith: Christ Clothes
  • Jurisdiction: Puerto Rican Orthodox Sobor
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #683 on: July 20, 2014, 01:43:37 AM »
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

No longer pasting here.

Another blog - http://literarydiktator.blogspot.com/

Offline Antonis

  • Μέγα το Θαυμά!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,838
  • Πρώτο ο Θεός
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOA - Direct Archdiocesan District
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #684 on: July 20, 2014, 02:54:23 AM »

Have a version of this in my house. They have brought much consolation to the people around me.
As I dissipate, Christ precipitates.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,539
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #685 on: July 20, 2014, 06:29:51 AM »


This is either a segment from the icon of All Saints, or of the Last Judgement. The inscription on the right reads [All] the saints entering Paradise. Some of the saints are easily identifiable, including Apostles Peter and Paul, and Cyril of Alexandria. The seraph guarding the entrance to Paradise has raised his swords to allow their passage.

Paradise is represented by the walled garden (a place of light, a place of green pasture, a place of refreshment, whence pain, grief and sighing have fled away, as funeral and memorial hymns say), in which can be seen Abraham with the souls of the righteous in his bosom, the crucified thief who confessed Christ, and the Mother of God.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,539
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #686 on: July 20, 2014, 09:22:26 AM »

Have a version of this in my house. They have brought much consolation to the people around me.

Bad theology is bad theology, no matter how you slice it.  :P
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Anna.T

  • Bond-slave to Christ Jesus
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,060
  • Κύριε, ἐλέησον!
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #687 on: July 20, 2014, 07:03:11 PM »


The Matrioshka doll "icon". It's the equivalent of the equally uncanonical Paternity. It has the added bonus of the mother of St Anna standing behind her daughter. Most versions I've seen of this schlock omit her.

Does that mean that the icons that show St. Anna, the Theotokos, and Christ in a similar manner are bad icons?
Aγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς

Let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,539
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #688 on: July 20, 2014, 07:22:56 PM »
Yes, I'm afraid.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline kelly

  • UNSUBSCRIBED
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,696
  • St. Olga Nikolaevna
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Alpaca ministries
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #689 on: July 20, 2014, 07:39:18 PM »
Is the woman all the way up top supposed to be St. Anna's mother? What is her name?
"But we must live in the world, having peace in our soul. We must live amidst strangers; we must suffer, struggle, and firmly believe. We must seek our consolation in prayer and not doubt the love and compassion of God. He is above everyone and everything."

This user posts here but probably shouldn't.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,539
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #690 on: July 20, 2014, 07:44:21 PM »
Is the woman all the way up top supposed to be St. Anna's mother? What is her name?

Yes, that woman is supposed to be St Anna's mother. The inscription reads "St Maria, Foremother (grandmother) of the Mother of God".

What needs to be remembered is that any reference to the mother of St Anna is practically absent in Orthodox tradition, and there is nothing I have found in sources that she is indeed a saint. No feast date, nothing.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,539
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #691 on: July 20, 2014, 07:49:54 PM »
I'll add the following about that image: Just as the uncanonical Paternity image paints a false Trinitarian theology, in not only showing God the Father in a form which He has never been revealed, but speaking of an inequality of the three Persons, the Maternity image expresses the quasi-trinitarian idea of a "Mother, Daughter, Holy Grand-daughter".
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline kelly

  • UNSUBSCRIBED
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,696
  • St. Olga Nikolaevna
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Alpaca ministries
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #692 on: July 20, 2014, 08:12:14 PM »
Okay, I thought my Google-fu was broken because I wasn't finding any reference to her either.

I find the fact that they just made up a name for her to be stranger than depicting her.
"But we must live in the world, having peace in our soul. We must live amidst strangers; we must suffer, struggle, and firmly believe. We must seek our consolation in prayer and not doubt the love and compassion of God. He is above everyone and everything."

This user posts here but probably shouldn't.

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,175
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #693 on: July 20, 2014, 08:13:14 PM »
Okay, I thought my Google-fu was broken because I wasn't finding any reference to her either.

I find the fact that they just made up a name for her to be stranger than depicting her.


if in doubt....all females are Mary...all males are Joseph

Online Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,754
  • "I pledge allegiance to the flag..."
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #694 on: July 21, 2014, 07:27:33 PM »
What on earth is this?

"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Quote
Bartholomew, 270th Archbishop of Constantinople-New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch, is spiritual leader to 300 million Orthodox Christians throughout the world.

Offline biro

  • Excelsior
  • Site Supporter
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,991
  • Chapter one again, here I go again
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #695 on: July 21, 2014, 07:28:29 PM »
Is it out of Revelation, maybe?  ???

Offline Antonis

  • Μέγα το Θαυμά!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,838
  • Πρώτο ο Θεός
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOA - Direct Archdiocesan District
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #696 on: July 21, 2014, 07:39:33 PM »
From an image search:

http://www.macdougallauction.com/Indexx1211.asp?id=524&lx=a

Quote
*524.  A RARE ICON OF "THE PURE SOUL"  

NORTHERN RUSSIA, END OF THE 17TH TO BEGINNING OF THE 18TH CENTURY


Allegorical depictions of Pure and Sinful Souls are known in Russian art from the latter half of the 16th century, often in illustrated manuscripts commemorating the dead (necrologies). Judging from the unusual white background, the artist replicated a miniature from a book.

The Pure Soul is depicted on the left as the Virgin in real attire and wearing a crown adorned with flowers. To her right is a lion (anger), a serpent (sin) and on the right, squatting naked in a cave, is the devil, symbolising the sinful soul. Christ enthroned in heaven above, awaits the worship of the Pure Soul and Guardian Angel. At the centre is the Sun with a human face and the border texts explain what is depicted.

In the 18th-19th centuries, edifying works about the Pure and Sinful Soul were in demand amongst Old Believers, both icons and printed sheets incorporated texts from either a necrology or the Blessed Monk Dorotheus's Thirty Great and Original Virtues, which formed part of the Tsvetnik (Flower-bed), a book widely popular with Old Believers. It is in the latter where the deep meaning of this edifying subject finds its fullest expression: “Human purity attaches man to God, and the purity of God dwells in man” (Tsvetnik of the Blessed Monk Dorotheus, Grodno, 1790, p. 187).

An important distinction of this icon is that the detailed border inscriptions bear no relation to either literary sources. Addressing the viewer — an extremely rare feature in an icon — the lower border reads: “See, O man, the parable of life painted here: if thou wilt ascend to the heavenly kingdom, then preserve thy purity of soul, otherwise thou shalt suffer eternal torment”.

Given the rarity of the subject and the detailed, original text, this icon is of considerable interest and belongs to a particular edifying type of Old Believer icon painting.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 07:40:05 PM by Antonis »
As I dissipate, Christ precipitates.

Offline Maria

  • Orthodox Christian
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,784
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #697 on: July 21, 2014, 07:40:37 PM »

Have a version of this in my house. They have brought much consolation to the people around me.

It is beautiful.

If you have any concerns, ask your priest. Ignore LBK.

Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline Maria

  • Orthodox Christian
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,784
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #698 on: July 21, 2014, 07:42:57 PM »
From an image search:

http://www.macdougallauction.com/Indexx1211.asp?id=524&lx=a

Quote
*524.  A RARE ICON OF "THE PURE SOUL"  

NORTHERN RUSSIA, END OF THE 17TH TO BEGINNING OF THE 18TH CENTURY


Allegorical depictions of Pure and Sinful Souls are known in Russian art from the latter half of the 16th century, often in illustrated manuscripts commemorating the dead (necrologies). Judging from the unusual white background, the artist replicated a miniature from a book.

The Pure Soul is depicted on the left as the Virgin in real attire and wearing a crown adorned with flowers. To her right is a lion (anger), a serpent (sin) and on the right, squatting naked in a cave, is the devil, symbolising the sinful soul. Christ enthroned in heaven above, awaits the worship of the Pure Soul and Guardian Angel. At the centre is the Sun with a human face and the border texts explain what is depicted.

In the 18th-19th centuries, edifying works about the Pure and Sinful Soul were in demand amongst Old Believers, both icons and printed sheets incorporated texts from either a necrology or the Blessed Monk Dorotheus's Thirty Great and Original Virtues, which formed part of the Tsvetnik (Flower-bed), a book widely popular with Old Believers. It is in the latter where the deep meaning of this edifying subject finds its fullest expression: “Human purity attaches man to God, and the purity of God dwells in man” (Tsvetnik of the Blessed Monk Dorotheus, Grodno, 1790, p. 187).

An important distinction of this icon is that the detailed border inscriptions bear no relation to either literary sources. Addressing the viewer — an extremely rare feature in an icon — the lower border reads: “See, O man, the parable of life painted here: if thou wilt ascend to the heavenly kingdom, then preserve thy purity of soul, otherwise thou shalt suffer eternal torment”.

Given the rarity of the subject and the detailed, original text, this icon is of considerable interest and belongs to a particular edifying type of Old Believer icon painting.

Thank you, Antonis.
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline Antonis

  • Μέγα το Θαυμά!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,838
  • Πρώτο ο Θεός
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOA - Direct Archdiocesan District
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #699 on: July 21, 2014, 07:44:02 PM »

Have a version of this in my house. They have brought much consolation to the people around me.

It is beautiful.

If you have any concerns, ask your priest. Ignore LBK.
Funny you say that, I received it from our presbytera.  ;)
As I dissipate, Christ precipitates.

Offline Antonis

  • Μέγα το Θαυμά!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,838
  • Πρώτο ο Θεός
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOA - Direct Archdiocesan District
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #700 on: July 21, 2014, 07:45:01 PM »
From an image search:

http://www.macdougallauction.com/Indexx1211.asp?id=524&lx=a

Quote
*524.  A RARE ICON OF "THE PURE SOUL"  

NORTHERN RUSSIA, END OF THE 17TH TO BEGINNING OF THE 18TH CENTURY


Allegorical depictions of Pure and Sinful Souls are known in Russian art from the latter half of the 16th century, often in illustrated manuscripts commemorating the dead (necrologies). Judging from the unusual white background, the artist replicated a miniature from a book.

The Pure Soul is depicted on the left as the Virgin in real attire and wearing a crown adorned with flowers. To her right is a lion (anger), a serpent (sin) and on the right, squatting naked in a cave, is the devil, symbolising the sinful soul. Christ enthroned in heaven above, awaits the worship of the Pure Soul and Guardian Angel. At the centre is the Sun with a human face and the border texts explain what is depicted.

In the 18th-19th centuries, edifying works about the Pure and Sinful Soul were in demand amongst Old Believers, both icons and printed sheets incorporated texts from either a necrology or the Blessed Monk Dorotheus's Thirty Great and Original Virtues, which formed part of the Tsvetnik (Flower-bed), a book widely popular with Old Believers. It is in the latter where the deep meaning of this edifying subject finds its fullest expression: “Human purity attaches man to God, and the purity of God dwells in man” (Tsvetnik of the Blessed Monk Dorotheus, Grodno, 1790, p. 187).

An important distinction of this icon is that the detailed border inscriptions bear no relation to either literary sources. Addressing the viewer — an extremely rare feature in an icon — the lower border reads: “See, O man, the parable of life painted here: if thou wilt ascend to the heavenly kingdom, then preserve thy purity of soul, otherwise thou shalt suffer eternal torment”.

Given the rarity of the subject and the detailed, original text, this icon is of considerable interest and belongs to a particular edifying type of Old Believer icon painting.

Thank you, Antonis.
It seems that it is not strictly an "icon" as many of us would understand it, but an illustration in an iconographic style.
As I dissipate, Christ precipitates.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,539
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #701 on: July 21, 2014, 07:45:31 PM »
Such images were common in Russia between the 16th and 19th centuries. Some pretty weird stuff exists from then. Unfortunately, they are unsuitable for veneration, as they are imaginative and allegorical. At best, they could be seen as didactic.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,539
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #702 on: July 21, 2014, 07:47:54 PM »

Have a version of this in my house. They have brought much consolation to the people around me.

It is beautiful.

If you have any concerns, ask your priest. Ignore LBK.



Beauty alone does not make an icon proper. A beautiful icon which does not express what the Church teaches and believes is no icon at all. The Schlock Icons thread is full of "beautiful" images which are theologically rubbish.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Antonis

  • Μέγα το Θαυμά!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,838
  • Πρώτο ο Θεός
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOA - Direct Archdiocesan District
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #703 on: July 21, 2014, 07:48:56 PM »

Have a version of this in my house. They have brought much consolation to the people around me.

It is beautiful.

If you have any concerns, ask your priest. Ignore LBK.



Beauty alone does not make an icon proper. A beautiful icon which does not express what the Church teaches and believes is no icon at all. The Schlock Icons thread is full of "beautiful" images which are theologically rubbish.
You are drawing a connection Maria has not made that beauty=canonicity. She merely said it was beautiful and told me to ask the advice of my priest.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 07:49:25 PM by Antonis »
As I dissipate, Christ precipitates.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,539
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #704 on: July 21, 2014, 07:54:04 PM »

Have a version of this in my house. They have brought much consolation to the people around me.

It is beautiful.

If you have any concerns, ask your priest. Ignore LBK.



Beauty alone does not make an icon proper. A beautiful icon which does not express what the Church teaches and believes is no icon at all. The Schlock Icons thread is full of "beautiful" images which are theologically rubbish.
You are drawing a connection Maria has not made that beauty=canonicity. She merely said it was beautiful and told me to ask the advice of my priest.

She also stated "ignore LBK". Yet, not so long ago, she sought my advice on an icon she was after. She can't have it both ways.  :police:
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Antonis

  • Μέγα το Θαυμά!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,838
  • Πρώτο ο Θεός
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOA - Direct Archdiocesan District
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #705 on: July 21, 2014, 07:55:34 PM »

Have a version of this in my house. They have brought much consolation to the people around me.

It is beautiful.

If you have any concerns, ask your priest. Ignore LBK.



Beauty alone does not make an icon proper. A beautiful icon which does not express what the Church teaches and believes is no icon at all. The Schlock Icons thread is full of "beautiful" images which are theologically rubbish.
You are drawing a connection Maria has not made that beauty=canonicity. She merely said it was beautiful and told me to ask the advice of my priest.

She also stated "ignore LBK". Yet, not so long ago, she sought my advice on an icon she was after. She can't have it both ways.  :police:
If you're anything like the saints you can have a good understanding of theology and still be wrong sometimes.
As I dissipate, Christ precipitates.

Offline Maria

  • Orthodox Christian
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,784
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #706 on: July 21, 2014, 07:57:59 PM »

Have a version of this in my house. They have brought much consolation to the people around me.

It is beautiful.

If you have any concerns, ask your priest. Ignore LBK.



Beauty alone does not make an icon proper. A beautiful icon which does not express what the Church teaches and believes is no icon at all. The Schlock Icons thread is full of "beautiful" images which are theologically rubbish.
You are drawing a connection Maria has not made that beauty=canonicity. She merely said it was beautiful and told me to ask the advice of my priest.

She also stated "ignore LBK". Yet, not so long ago, she sought my advice on an icon she was after. She can't have it both ways.  :police:
If you're anything like the saints you can have a good understanding of theology and still be wrong sometimes.

Exactly. Even saints are not infallible. Christ is the only sinless One.
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,539
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #707 on: July 21, 2014, 08:01:34 PM »

Have a version of this in my house. They have brought much consolation to the people around me.

It is beautiful.

If you have any concerns, ask your priest. Ignore LBK.



Beauty alone does not make an icon proper. A beautiful icon which does not express what the Church teaches and believes is no icon at all. The Schlock Icons thread is full of "beautiful" images which are theologically rubbish.
You are drawing a connection Maria has not made that beauty=canonicity. She merely said it was beautiful and told me to ask the advice of my priest.

She also stated "ignore LBK". Yet, not so long ago, she sought my advice on an icon she was after. She can't have it both ways.  :police:
If you're anything like the saints you can have a good understanding of theology and still be wrong sometimes.

Antonis and Maria, I would be delighted if you could provide us all with a thorough analysis of the theology of that image, and how it conforms with the liturgical, patristic and doctrinal traditions of the Church.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 08:02:07 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Antonis

  • Μέγα το Θαυμά!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,838
  • Πρώτο ο Θεός
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOA - Direct Archdiocesan District
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #708 on: July 21, 2014, 08:49:33 PM »
I would say the burden of proof lies with you, as my spiritual father, the abbots of at least two monasteries, and at least two Orthodox metropolitans here in America accept it as perfectly fine.

And if you're going to do so, I would ask that you please cite sources, instead of long soliloquies that we are just supposed to accept because you are you.
As I dissipate, Christ precipitates.

Online Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,754
  • "I pledge allegiance to the flag..."
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #709 on: July 21, 2014, 08:52:15 PM »
Uh oh, there's a little too much joy here:

"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Quote
Bartholomew, 270th Archbishop of Constantinople-New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch, is spiritual leader to 300 million Orthodox Christians throughout the world.

Offline kelly

  • UNSUBSCRIBED
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,696
  • St. Olga Nikolaevna
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Alpaca ministries
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #710 on: July 21, 2014, 08:54:11 PM »
I do not like that one.
"But we must live in the world, having peace in our soul. We must live amidst strangers; we must suffer, struggle, and firmly believe. We must seek our consolation in prayer and not doubt the love and compassion of God. He is above everyone and everything."

This user posts here but probably shouldn't.

Offline Antonis

  • Μέγα το Θαυμά!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,838
  • Πρώτο ο Θεός
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOA - Direct Archdiocesan District
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #711 on: July 21, 2014, 09:01:29 PM »
It obeys the canonical rule of "St Joseph's restraining order," though.
As I dissipate, Christ precipitates.

Offline kelly

  • UNSUBSCRIBED
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,696
  • St. Olga Nikolaevna
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Alpaca ministries
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #712 on: July 21, 2014, 09:04:44 PM »
It obeys the canonical rule of "St Joseph's restraining order," though.

"But we must live in the world, having peace in our soul. We must live amidst strangers; we must suffer, struggle, and firmly believe. We must seek our consolation in prayer and not doubt the love and compassion of God. He is above everyone and everything."

This user posts here but probably shouldn't.

Offline Nephi

  • Monster Tamer
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,762
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #713 on: July 21, 2014, 10:14:07 PM »
It obeys the canonical rule of "St Joseph's restraining order," though.

LOL

The court must have also ordered that he look sad every time he's around Jesus.

Offline Antonis

  • Μέγα το Θαυμά!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,838
  • Πρώτο ο Θεός
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOA - Direct Archdiocesan District
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #714 on: July 21, 2014, 10:27:15 PM »
It obeys the canonical rule of "St Joseph's restraining order," though.

LOL

The court must have also ordered that he look sad every time he's around Jesus.
Mustn't think he's trying to upstage the Theotokos!  :police:
As I dissipate, Christ precipitates.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,539
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #715 on: July 22, 2014, 12:23:43 AM »
I would say the burden of proof lies with you, as my spiritual father, the abbots of at least two monasteries, and at least two Orthodox metropolitans here in America accept it as perfectly fine.

And if you're going to do so, I would ask that you please cite sources, instead of long soliloquies that we are just supposed to accept because you are you.

That's not an answer to my question. I do not speak from myself, but from the traditions of the Church, and I do provide sources from Tradition to back what I write. If I am so wrong in my criticism of this image, then, please enlighten us all with the reasons why it is suitable for veneration.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Maria

  • Orthodox Christian
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,784
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #716 on: July 22, 2014, 02:35:30 AM »
I would say the burden of proof lies with you, as my spiritual father, the abbots of at least two monasteries, and at least two Orthodox metropolitans here in America accept it as perfectly fine.

And if you're going to do so, I would ask that you please cite sources, instead of long soliloquies that we are just supposed to accept because you are you.

I agree. It is not sufficient to read only what LBK posts, we need her citations so that we know she has done the research if she is going to present herself as the OC.net expert on iconography.  By they way, how many Icons has LBK written?

The icon that Antonis has posted is perfectly canonical showing the ancestors of Christ. These were holy women. If we were to imitate the lives of these women, there would not be less flame throwing or baiting going on.
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline Maria

  • Orthodox Christian
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,784
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #717 on: July 22, 2014, 02:36:42 AM »
I would say the burden of proof lies with you, as my spiritual father, the abbots of at least two monasteries, and at least two Orthodox metropolitans here in America accept it as perfectly fine.

And if you're going to do so, I would ask that you please cite sources, instead of long soliloquies that we are just supposed to accept because you are you.

That's not an answer to my question. I do not speak from myself, but from the traditions of the Church, and I do provide sources from Tradition to back what I write. If I am so wrong in my criticism of this image, then, please enlighten us all with the reasons why it is suitable for veneration.

The burden of proof falls on you, as you were the one who said it was not canonical.
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,539
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #718 on: July 22, 2014, 02:42:52 AM »
I would say the burden of proof lies with you, as my spiritual father, the abbots of at least two monasteries, and at least two Orthodox metropolitans here in America accept it as perfectly fine.

And if you're going to do so, I would ask that you please cite sources, instead of long soliloquies that we are just supposed to accept because you are you.

I agree. It is not sufficient to read only what LBK posts, we need her citations so that we know she has done the research if she is going to present herself as the OC.net expert on iconography.  By they way, how many Icons has LBK written?

The icon that Antonis has posted is perfectly canonical showing the ancestors of Christ. These were holy women. If we were to imitate the lives of these women, there would not be less flame throwing or baiting going on.


How many icons have you painted, Maria? By what liturgical, patristic, historical, and doctrinal authority do you claim the image is "perfectly canonical"?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Maria

  • Orthodox Christian
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,784
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC
Re: Strange icons
« Reply #719 on: July 22, 2014, 02:47:02 AM »
I would say the burden of proof lies with you, as my spiritual father, the abbots of at least two monasteries, and at least two Orthodox metropolitans here in America accept it as perfectly fine.

And if you're going to do so, I would ask that you please cite sources, instead of long soliloquies that we are just supposed to accept because you are you.

I agree. It is not sufficient to read only what LBK posts, we need her citations so that we know she has done the research if she is going to present herself as the OC.net expert on iconography.  By they way, how many Icons has LBK written?

The icon that Antonis has posted is perfectly canonical showing the ancestors of Christ. These were holy women. If we were to imitate the lives of these women, there would not be less flame throwing or baiting going on.


How many icons have you painted, Maria? By what liturgical, patristic, historical, and doctrinal authority do you claim the image is "perfectly canonical"?

Where is your proof, LBK? You falsely claimed it was not canonical when Antonio's Presbytera gifted it to him.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 02:47:47 AM by Maria »
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας