Author Topic: Strange icons  (Read 71001 times)

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Offline mike

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #360 on: August 21, 2013, 06:27:55 AM »
Indeed, using your logic, every iconographer is simply to show off their artistic skill.

No, because mst icons can be used as objects of veneration, as educational tools, as tools for helping to focus on prayer, as decorations... This can be used in none of these ways. So I'm asking, why?
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #361 on: August 21, 2013, 06:39:22 AM »
Indeed, using your logic, every iconographer is simply to show off their artistic skill.

No, because mst icons can be used as objects of veneration, as educational tools, as tools for helping to focus on prayer, as decorations... This can be used in none of these ways. So I'm asking, why?

Please note the bolded words. Did I not mention prayer and fasting as part of the discipline of painting an icon several posts ago?

You are so eager to score points off me you're ignoring what I've said. Not a good look.
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Offline mike

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #362 on: August 21, 2013, 06:40:48 AM »
Indeed, using your logic, every iconographer is simply to show off their artistic skill.

No, because mst icons can be used as objects of veneration, as educational tools, as tools for helping to focus on prayer, as decorations... This can be used in none of these ways. So I'm asking, why?

Please note the bolded words. Did I not mention prayer and fasting as part of the discipline of painting an icon several posts ago?

You are so eager to score points off me you're ignoring what I've said. Not a good look.

So has it been useless since it was painted?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 06:41:08 AM by Michał Kalina »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #363 on: August 21, 2013, 10:41:14 AM »
Indeed, using your logic, every iconographer is simply to show off their artistic skill.

No, because mst icons can be used as objects of veneration, as educational tools, as tools for helping to focus on prayer, as decorations... This can be used in none of these ways. So I'm asking, why?

Please note the bolded words. Did I not mention prayer and fasting as part of the discipline of painting an icon several posts ago?

You are so eager to score points off me you're ignoring what I've said. Not a good look.

So has it been useless since it was painted?

Not at all, even though you keep trying to say so. It's still an icon of Christ, and it can still be prayed before. Heck, it can even be venerated by kissing one's fingertip and touching it onto the icon, in the same way that icons out of reach of one's lips are venerated. You would have seen this kind of veneration many times in your life. For all we know, this miniature was painted to be placed in a locket, and worn and venerated like a baptismal cross. Instead of a photograph of a loved one, there is an icon of Christ.

Still want to call it useless?
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #364 on: August 21, 2013, 11:50:00 AM »
What is the point of that?

In places were a Christian could be persecuted for having an icon, this one could easily be hidden when necessary.

Do you think it was painted for that? Seriously?

Because it can be done. Isn't it Russian? Brought to you by the same folks who built the biggest cannon, the biggest bell, the biggest church, the biggest empire, etc. Now, why not go to the other end of the scale?

You beat me to it.  :laugh: Russians are renowned for their miniatures, the Palekh region particularly so.

I've seen quite a few miniature icons, but never one that small! I'm impressed. Very impressed.

It's beautiful.  Where can I find miniature icons like that?
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #365 on: September 06, 2013, 10:21:35 AM »
You beat me to it.  :laugh: Russians are renowned for their miniatures, the Palekh region particularly so.

I've seen quite a few miniature icons, but never one that small! I'm impressed. Very impressed.

If there any reason for it to be created other but boasting about skills? I mean, how can one kiss that for example?

My, you have a narrow view of certain things! So using one's talent for glorifying God isn't good enough?

How it's gloryfing God? Can you give a single practical usage of that?

It might actually be used as a "miniature" in a dollhouse.  Girls often play with dollhouses, reenacting daily routines with the little family, and thereby, learning themselves. 

Why not have little icons on the walls in the dollhouse, so they learn that is "normal" and to be expected?





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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #366 on: September 06, 2013, 10:22:34 AM »

I've never seen an icon like this.  She seems to be dressed as a bishop.

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Offline Romaios

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #367 on: September 06, 2013, 10:31:38 AM »
^She's depicted as Abbess (Gerontissa) of the Holy Mountain.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #368 on: September 06, 2013, 10:33:41 AM »

Ahhhh.... of course!

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Offline Philipa

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #369 on: September 06, 2013, 10:41:33 AM »
The dollhouse is beautiful. Is it yours Liza?

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #370 on: September 06, 2013, 10:53:21 AM »

I've never seen an icon like this.  She seems to be dressed as a bishop.



She is wearing a mantiya of a bishop or archimandrite. This image, called Gerontissa (Eldress) is a variant of the Abbess of Athos, a reference to her being the patron and protector of the Holy Mountain, known to the Greeks as The Garden of the Mother of God (To perivoli tis Panaghias).

While she is known as the Abbess of Athos, to show her in a mantle, and of the type worn by male clergy or archimandrites, is not correct. The Abbess title is figurative, not literal, so she should be shown in her conventional garb. Moreover, obscuring her clothing robs the image of much of the symbolism of her garments. Here is a more acceptable version, though it would have been even better if there was a motif of Christ present somewhere, either in the upper border, or in an upper corner:


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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #371 on: September 06, 2013, 11:00:37 AM »

While she is known as the Abbess of Athos, to show her in a mantle, and of the type worn by male clergy or archimandrites, is not correct. The Abbess title is figurative, not literal, so she should be shown in her conventional garb. Moreover, obscuring her clothing robs the image of much of the symbolism of her garments.


Thanks for the explanation LBK.  I was also just a bit worried about the bishop's robes, so someone doesn't interpret or refer to it, as approving of a female clergy.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #372 on: September 06, 2013, 11:31:07 AM »

While she is known as the Abbess of Athos, to show her in a mantle, and of the type worn by male clergy or archimandrites, is not correct. The Abbess title is figurative, not literal, so she should be shown in her conventional garb. Moreover, obscuring her clothing robs the image of much of the symbolism of her garments.


Thanks for the explanation LBK.  I was also just a bit worried about the bishop's robes, so someone doesn't interpret or refer to it, as approving of a female clergy.

The implication that the Mother of God is a cleric is a major problem in showing her in a mantiya. There's a weird Russian one I have on file where the Mother of God is shown fully vested, holding a chalice, with the inscription Bestower of the Gifts. Blatant heresy.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #373 on: September 06, 2013, 01:55:41 PM »

While she is known as the Abbess of Athos, to show her in a mantle, and of the type worn by male clergy or archimandrites, is not correct. The Abbess title is figurative, not literal, so she should be shown in her conventional garb. Moreover, obscuring her clothing robs the image of much of the symbolism of her garments.


Thanks for the explanation LBK.  I was also just a bit worried about the bishop's robes, so someone doesn't interpret or refer to it, as approving of a female clergy.

The implication that the Mother of God is a cleric is a major problem in showing her in a mantiya. There's a weird Russian one I have on file where the Mother of God is shown fully vested, holding a chalice, with the inscription Bestower of the Gifts. Blatant heresy.


Are not ordained abbots not allowed to wear mantya? Arent abbesses not allowed to wear mantyas? They were pectoral crosses.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #374 on: September 06, 2013, 10:00:47 PM »

While she is known as the Abbess of Athos, to show her in a mantle, and of the type worn by male clergy or archimandrites, is not correct. The Abbess title is figurative, not literal, so she should be shown in her conventional garb. Moreover, obscuring her clothing robs the image of much of the symbolism of her garments.


Thanks for the explanation LBK.  I was also just a bit worried about the bishop's robes, so someone doesn't interpret or refer to it, as approving of a female clergy.

The implication that the Mother of God is a cleric is a major problem in showing her in a mantiya. There's a weird Russian one I have on file where the Mother of God is shown fully vested, holding a chalice, with the inscription Bestower of the Gifts. Blatant heresy.


Are not ordained abbots not allowed to wear mantya? Arent abbesses not allowed to wear mantyas? They were pectoral crosses.

An archimandrite wears one with the rectangular panels, but without the episcopal stripes. The mantiya of an abbess is plain black. The Mother of God in the image Liza posted is wearing an episcopal mantiya, which is completely wrong.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #375 on: September 06, 2013, 10:05:33 PM »

While she is known as the Abbess of Athos, to show her in a mantle, and of the type worn by male clergy or archimandrites, is not correct. The Abbess title is figurative, not literal, so she should be shown in her conventional garb. Moreover, obscuring her clothing robs the image of much of the symbolism of her garments.


Thanks for the explanation LBK.  I was also just a bit worried about the bishop's robes, so someone doesn't interpret or refer to it, as approving of a female clergy.

The implication that the Mother of God is a cleric is a major problem in showing her in a mantiya. There's a weird Russian one I have on file where the Mother of God is shown fully vested, holding a chalice, with the inscription Bestower of the Gifts. Blatant heresy.


Are not ordained abbots not allowed to wear mantya? Arent abbesses not allowed to wear mantyas? They were pectoral crosses.

An archimandrite wears one with the rectangular panels, but without the episcopal stripes. The mantiya of an abbess is plain black. The Mother of God in the image Liza posted is wearing an episcopal mantiya, which is completely wrong.
Yeah, I saw that strange thing awhile ago. I thought the Episcopalians had taken over.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #376 on: September 19, 2013, 11:53:49 AM »
The cover of the July-September 2013 edition of Georgian Mirror, an Indian Orthodox publication, depicts an icon of the Hospitality of Abraham done in a South Indian style. 

The caption at the bottom translates (roughly) as "Vision of the Trinity", but I welcome corrections. 

I tried uploading the image to this thread, but Mr Computer told me that the upload folder was full and so no attachment could go through.  The link above should work. 
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #377 on: September 19, 2013, 12:03:14 PM »
The cover of the July-September 2013 edition of Georgian Mirror, an Indian Orthodox publication, depicts an icon of the Hospitality of Abraham done in a South Indian style. 

The skin tone is reminiscent of the Simpsons. *flees*
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #378 on: September 19, 2013, 12:06:06 PM »
The cover of the July-September 2013 edition of Georgian Mirror, an Indian Orthodox publication, depicts an icon of the Hospitality of Abraham done in a South Indian style. 

The caption at the bottom translates (roughly) as "Vision of the Trinity", but I welcome corrections. 

I tried uploading the image to this thread, but Mr Computer told me that the upload folder was full and so no attachment could go through.  The link above should work. 

On one hand, I'm fairly sure they didn't use vazhela plates to eat rice and curry back in Ancient Caanan. But then again I don't think the nomadic herdsmen of that time would carry around wooden tables as depicted in Fr. Rublev's icon either.

PS, what does the inscription along the side say? I think the first word is "Abrahaminte" but it's really hard to tell.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 12:09:31 PM by sheenj »

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #379 on: September 19, 2013, 12:18:58 PM »
PS, what does the inscription along the side say? I think the first word is "Abrahaminte" but it's really hard to tell.

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #380 on: September 22, 2013, 10:11:18 PM »
The cover of the July-September 2013 edition of Georgian Mirror, an Indian Orthodox publication, depicts an icon of the Hospitality of Abraham done in a South Indian style. 

The caption at the bottom translates (roughly) as "Vision of the Trinity", but I welcome corrections. 

I tried uploading the image to this thread, but Mr Computer told me that the upload folder was full and so no attachment could go through.  The link above should work. 

Very neat. Is this a recent thing (hence strange icons thread, I guess), or are there actually some interpretations of the Hospitality of Abraham as Trinitarian in the OO Churches?

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #381 on: September 23, 2013, 12:06:22 AM »
We regard the appearance of the three angels to Abraham as a type of the Trinity, that interpretation is quite traditional.  This icon, on the other hand, is a modern, South Indian version of the Byzantine icon of this subject.  AFAIK, Byzantine style iconography and Indian adaptations thereof are a recent phenomenon in India (~30-40 years?). 
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #382 on: September 23, 2013, 12:29:06 PM »
Just a bit strange - I've never before seen such type of icon of st. Matrona
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #383 on: September 23, 2013, 06:02:18 PM »
Just a bit strange - I've never before seen such type of icon of st. Matrona


This is not meant to be an icon in its own right, but is part of a "life" icon - the saint is shown in a large central panel, surrounded by smaller panels, each panel showing a scene from the saint's life.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 06:08:29 PM by LBK »
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #384 on: September 24, 2013, 05:09:02 AM »
This is not meant to be an icon in its own right, but is part of a "life" icon - the saint is shown in a large central panel, surrounded by smaller panels, each panel showing a scene from the saint's life.

I forgot about this case, as I'd seen it alone. Now it's explained, thank you :)
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #385 on: October 05, 2013, 10:24:52 PM »
Hmm...


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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #386 on: October 05, 2013, 10:29:47 PM »
Hmm...



That looks suspiciously like an image of the "Perfect Freemason" I saw in my father-in-law's Freemason History book.  I'll see if I can rustle up a photo.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #387 on: October 05, 2013, 10:31:30 PM »
What on earth is that thing?
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #388 on: October 05, 2013, 10:32:46 PM »

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #389 on: October 05, 2013, 10:38:46 PM »
What on earth is that thing?

I think it's the sun, so nothing on earth. :angel:

Anyway, it's from the Bulgarian Rila Monastery which otherwise has some of the most beautiful stuff I've ever seen pictures of.

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #390 on: October 05, 2013, 11:48:57 PM »
What on earth is that thing?

Revelation 10:1

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #391 on: October 05, 2013, 11:58:38 PM »
Thanks!  I would never have guessed that...
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #392 on: October 06, 2013, 12:04:31 AM »
What on earth is that thing?

Revelation 10:1

Portrayed very literally.  Interesting.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #393 on: October 06, 2013, 08:27:50 PM »
So, this is what I was reminded of:

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #394 on: October 06, 2013, 11:17:16 PM »


/thread

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Ah, ha. This is the one Christopher Hitchens must have been going on about.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #395 on: October 07, 2013, 04:03:03 PM »
Hmm...



Oh man, that rules. I'd like to see some more Orthodox depictions from St. John's Apocalypse.

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #396 on: October 07, 2013, 04:10:18 PM »
^ that is all sorts of awesome.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #397 on: October 09, 2013, 11:40:20 AM »

How about this one?

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline hecma925

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #398 on: October 09, 2013, 12:06:30 PM »

How about this one?



My Greek is bad..."Mama ???Atima?" 
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #399 on: October 09, 2013, 12:47:12 PM »

Might it be "Fatima"?
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #400 on: October 09, 2013, 01:01:11 PM »
I doubt it.  The kids are all wrong. 
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #401 on: October 09, 2013, 01:11:17 PM »
I doubt it.  The kids are all wrong. 

Why do you hate children? ;D
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #402 on: October 09, 2013, 01:43:57 PM »
The Fatima apparitions were to three children--two girls and a boy--and didn't involve the Christ Child until the very last vision.  But this icon has what appear to be three boys.  I don't know why you would assume I hate children?  ???  That's rather unkind.   
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline hecma925

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #403 on: October 09, 2013, 01:48:24 PM »
The Fatima apparitions were to three children--two girls and a boy--and didn't involve the Christ Child until the very last vision.  But this icon has what appear to be three boys.  I don't know why you would assume I hate children?  ???  That's rather unkind.   
I apologize, I was being facetious.  I wrote based solely on what you wrote:  "The kids are all wrong."  Please forgive me.

Yes, you're right, if it is an "icon" of the Fatima apparition.  Unless, these three boys are representative of all children?  I'm not sure.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #404 on: October 09, 2013, 01:52:34 PM »
I apologize, I was being facetious.  I wrote based solely on what you wrote:  "The kids are all wrong."  Please forgive me.



;)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 01:52:58 PM by Mor Ephrem »
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Bartholomew, 270th Archbishop of Constantinople-New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch, is spiritual leader to 300 million Orthodox Christians throughout the world.