Author Topic: Strange icons  (Read 462400 times)

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Offline wgw

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1440 on: March 09, 2016, 06:58:40 AM »
whereas an EO parish positively cannot have even as a decoration an image depicting Christ as a lamb owing to the canons of the Qunisext Council, the ore-schism Roman Catholic Church rejected Trullo, and as a result, I believe Western Rite Orthodox parishes should be allowed to have such images, to the extent that they ought to try to represent the state of the Roman Catholic Church before the Great Schism, during the Iconoclastic Persecution, when it supported the iconodules (its finest hour, I think). 


You're putting "culture" over theology and Orthodoxy. Style over substance.

Allowing any Orthodox, including WRO, to paint Christ as a lamb, is expressly forbidden by Canon 82. Period. Adherents of the WR church insist it is fully Orthodox. This means the complete acceptance of the Quinisext Council by the WRO, just as the eastern-rite Church accepts it.

Note thisnis my personal opinion on the matter; I speak with no personal authority on this matter and have never discussed icons in depth with my spiritual father.

 :-X

On this point, I believe, and I have discussed this part with my spiritual father, given my OO affiliation, that the Quinisext Council is only binding for the Eastern Orthodox Church.  Now, I am OO, but I have opinions on EO affairs, having been EO before (I will probably be EO again; I am, controversially, a nyoer-ecumenist, and will join whichever church is closer to me).  My view is that Trullo cannot be binding on the OO if EO-OO reconciliation happens, which I hope it will. and it positively cannot be binding on the Romans if RC-EO reunion happens, in part, because it never was.

I believe Quinisext is a rite-specific council: EO bishops can mandate it on the WRO, but I think they should not, because Rome never acceded to it, but always protested it, and the Orthodox did not  break communion with Rome over this issue.  I think the WRO ought to be regarded as a surrogate for the Roman church and allowed to basically do anything the Roman church did pre-1054, except recite the filioque, because Rome herself agreed not do do that, and later reneged on that agreement.

However, if the bishops feel otherwise, it is their call, and I support them either way.  It is my hope they will at some point however declare the WRO as not bound by Trullo, but rather, subject to a subset of the Quinisext canons that represent what amounted to the settlement between Rome and the East before the Filioque Controversy erupted at the behest of Charlemagne.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1441 on: March 09, 2016, 07:27:51 AM »
On this point, I believe, and I have discussed this part with my spiritual father, given my OO affiliation, that the Quinisext Council is only binding for the Eastern Orthodox Church.  Now, I am OO, but I have opinions on EO affairs, having been EO before (I will probably be EO again; I am, controversially, a nyoer-ecumenist, and will join whichever church is closer to me).  My view is that Trullo cannot be binding on the OO if EO-OO reconciliation happens, which I hope it will. and it positively cannot be binding on the Romans if RC-EO reunion happens, in part, because it never was.

Irrelevant. I deliberately left the OO out of my posts. That much should be clear to anyone who reads them.

I believe Quinisext is a rite-specific council: EO bishops can mandate it on the WRO, but I think they should not, because Rome never acceded to it, but always protested it, and the Orthodox did not  break communion with Rome over this issue.   

The EO accept all of the Quinisext Council. Rite has nothing to do with it, particularly as the WRO repeatedly hold themselves out to be fully Orthodox.

I think the WRO ought to be regarded as a surrogate for the Roman church and allowed to basically do anything the Roman church did pre-1054,

Including disregarding an ecumenical council, including one of its canons which is of fundamentally Christological nature? You can't be serious.  :o



« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 07:31:24 AM by LBK »
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Offline wgw

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1442 on: March 09, 2016, 07:44:11 AM »
I don't believe Trullo is an ecumenical council.  Some do; some say it is an extension of the Fifth and Sixth councils.  My view is that since Rome never agreed to it, and since Rome was at the time still a part of the Orthodox Church, it is not ecumenical.  On the other hand, the council the Serbians are oushing to be recognized as the Eighth Ecumenical Council I do regard as ecumenical, because Rome agreed to it.  Thus, I believe, and this is my personal view, that insofar as the WRO churches represent a surrogate for what should be the Roman Orthodox Church, operating in lieu of the Roman Catholic Church owing to the Schism, those churches ought to be allowed to use any iconographic forms in use prior to the Great Schism; they should be treated almost like how a Metochion is treated, with the EO bishops acting in place of the Roman Pope. 

Now one can make the argument that the WRO instead ought to represent an ideal as to how we think the Roman Church should have looked, and how it would have looked had it not been apparently destined for schism.  This might be the case, and if one takes this view, imposing all lf Trullo on them makes more sense.  My own view is that the WRO should instead be encouraged to attempt to recreate as precisely as possible the Roman Church as it existed at the time of the Second Council of Nicea, or better yet the Eighth Ecumenical Council where it renounced the filioque, and ought to be governed by the bishops with a view towards becoming a Roman Orthodox Patriarchate if ecumenical reconcilation with Rome becomes impossible. 

I don't want to derail this thread any more by discussing this; so I am going to do two things: post a thread in Orthodox-Catholic Relations about the WRO, and then ask you this: aside from depictions of Christ as a lamb and statuary, do you object to traditional Roman style iconography of the Romanesque period, and to stained glass windows, on any theological grounds?   And if so, please elaborate.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1443 on: March 09, 2016, 08:20:43 AM »
I don't believe Trullo is an ecumenical council.  Some do; some say it is an extension of the Fifth and Sixth councils. 

The entire EO Church believes the Trullan council is ecumenical. The title Quinisext means Fifth-Sixth. What youhave stated about what you believe about this council about it is not what the EO Church believes and teaches.

aside from depictions of Christ as a lamb and statuary, do you object to traditional Roman style iconography of the Romanesque period, and to stained glass windows, on any theological grounds?   And if so, please elaborate.

Images which do not conform to Orthodox teaching are unacceptable, irrespective of whether the painting style is Romanesque, Greek, Russian, or anything else. My position on this has never wavered, as so many posts of mine on this forum over eight years clearly show.

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Offline wgw

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1444 on: March 09, 2016, 09:22:05 AM »
I don't believe Trullo is an ecumenical council.  Some do; some say it is an extension of the Fifth and Sixth councils. 

The entire EO Church believes the Trullan council is ecumenical. The title Quinisext means Fifth-Sixth. What youhave stated about what you believe about this council about it is not what the EO Church believes and teaches.

aside from depictions of Christ as a lamb and statuary, do you object to traditional Roman style iconography of the Romanesque period, and to stained glass windows, on any theological grounds?   And if so, please elaborate.

Images which do not conform to Orthodox teaching are unacceptable, irrespective of whether the painting style is Romanesque, Greek, Russian, or anything else. My position on this has never wavered, as so many posts of mine on this forum over eight years clearly show.

I agree that icons which violate Orthodox teaching are unacceptable.  However, let us set aside the lamb; you might be right in Quinisext; I need to look into this.  Are stained glass windows potentially valid forms of iconography if the window is designed in accordance with Orthodox iconographic principles?

Also. if they are, could you perhaps give examples of specific stained glass windows and other examples of Romanesque iconography which are in your opinion canonical, and examples which are uncanonical?

I would be particularly thrilled if you might walk us through some major Western European Cathedrals, like, say, Notre Dame, or Westminister Abbey, and point out that which is acceptable vs. that which is unacceptable.

One thing I very much dislike, which I believe you also object to, are Roman Catholic icons depicting the Sacred Heart of Jesus, or the Heart of Mary, or some combination of the two.  I find these to be Nestorian, sanguinary, visually grotesque and theologically offensive, as well as overly sentimental.

By the way, I want to publically apologize to you for a tiff we had in a private forum in September.  You and I did clash a lot early on, of late however I have found myself agreeing with you much more, and as we approach Forgiveness Sunday, I would very much like to bury the hatchet with you and perhaos try to be your friend in the year going forward.

When I first joined OCNet, I was suffering both physical and mental pain owing to a severe health problem, which went away, and the failing health of my father, and a related family emergency, and many of my posts reflected a certain ... imprudence, and when I inappropriately and severely foamed you in September, my father wasdying and I had no access to him, so I took out my anger on you, which was wrong, evil, vindictive and petty.

My desire in the year ahead is to tap your knowledge, to the extent you will permit it, regarding iconography, church architecture, and liturgics, in particular, to the extent you are familiar with it, the Typikon and the ordering of hymns at Matins and Vespers.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1445 on: March 09, 2016, 12:43:25 PM »
Icons are depictions based on a particular theological understanding of Christ, the Mother of God and the saints. Icons are not just general depictions of them or of an episode of divine dispensation. Rather, icons are depicted with specific theological intention; and it is this which governs the way in which they are depicted. This is what makes them icons.

Iconography is not just religious or spiritual depiction, but is based on a theological depiction which the canonical rule, such as the well-known Canon 82 of the Quinisext council, points to. It, and the Seventh Council which followed it, along with the iconoclastic controversy and the theological issues pertinent to it, has profoundly influenced on our sense of what iconography is. But what this understanding has done for us is to provide us, not with simply a rule that certain representational depictions are not permitted, but that iconography needs to follow a particular canonical understanding.

You never cite your sources for why your standards are the definitive ones.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1446 on: March 09, 2016, 02:25:05 PM »
But she's only holding the rose, not pointing to it. That's my understanding.

She was also holding the pine tree.

Wrong. She is clearly pointing to the pine tree:

Do you often point to something with five fingers?  I don't.

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1447 on: March 09, 2016, 02:25:47 PM »

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1448 on: March 09, 2016, 02:30:42 PM »
the ore-schism Roman Catholic Church rejected Trullo, and as a result, I believe Western Rite Orthodox parishes should be allowed to have such images

The Patriarch of Rome is not above the canons of the Councils.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1449 on: March 09, 2016, 02:30:55 PM »
But she's only holding the rose, not pointing to it. That's my understanding.

She was also holding the pine tree.

Wrong. She is clearly pointing to the pine tree:

Do you often point to something with five fingers?  I don't.
You mean not everyone points like this?

« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 02:31:57 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1450 on: March 09, 2016, 02:32:13 PM »
But she's only holding the rose, not pointing to it. That's my understanding.

She was also holding the pine tree.

Wrong. She is clearly pointing to the pine tree:

Do you often point to something with five fingers?  I don't.
You mean not everyone points like this?





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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1451 on: March 09, 2016, 02:37:06 PM »
I changed the picture to a kindler, gentler Adolf.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1452 on: March 09, 2016, 02:38:39 PM »
I changed the picture to a kindler, gentler Adolf.



Either way....you invoked Godwin's law and this whole thing is over...

Godwin’s Law is an internet adage that is derived from one of the earliest bits of Usenet wisdoms, which goes “if you mention Adolf Hitler or Nazis within a discussion thread, you’ve automatically ended whatever discussion you were taking part in.”


there -are- rules...this isn't the wild wild west, you know...;)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 02:39:03 PM by DeniseDenise »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1453 on: March 09, 2016, 02:49:41 PM »
I know what Godwin's Law is. I couldn't think of any other examples of 5 finger pointing though.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1454 on: March 09, 2016, 06:47:46 PM »
But she's only holding the rose, not pointing to it. That's my understanding.

She was also holding the pine tree.

Wrong. She is clearly pointing to the pine tree:

Do you often point to something with five fingers?  I don't.

The Mother of God points to her Son as The Way, The Truth and the Life with all five fingers. This is a standard and ancient iconographic motif. It is also the expression of the title Odighitria (She Who Shows the Way), as well as a gesture of supplication and deference.

It is also seen in countless icons of saints, where the saint's hand is directed to the cross he or she is carrying, or to Christ.
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1455 on: March 09, 2016, 07:30:19 PM »
I changed the picture to a kindler, gentler Adolf.



Either way....you invoked Godwin's law and this whole thing is over...

Godwin’s Law is an internet adage that is derived from one of the earliest bits of Usenet wisdoms, which goes “if you mention Adolf Hitler or Nazis within a discussion thread, you’ve automatically ended whatever discussion you were taking part in.”


there -are- rules...this isn't the wild wild west, you know...;)

Please point me to the canon that says this.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1456 on: March 09, 2016, 09:59:25 PM »
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Offline HaydenTE

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1457 on: March 12, 2016, 01:37:14 PM »
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1458 on: March 12, 2016, 03:28:25 PM »
That is very interesting. Where is it located?
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1459 on: March 12, 2016, 03:53:39 PM »
That is very interesting. Where is it located?
The Archbishop's Chapel in Ravenna.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1460 on: March 12, 2016, 07:00:00 PM »
Thank you.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1461 on: March 15, 2016, 02:42:24 PM »
But she's only holding the rose, not pointing to it. That's my understanding.

It is a gesture with her whole hand.  It is a part of Orthodox tradition.  Get your own copy of the classic textbook by Ouspensky: The Meaning of Icons.
She was also holding the pine tree.

Wrong. She is clearly pointing to the pine tree:

Do you often point to something with five fingers?  I don't.

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1462 on: March 22, 2016, 07:38:40 AM »
But she's only holding the rose, not pointing to it. That's my understanding.

It is a gesture with her whole hand.  It is a part of Orthodox tradition.  Get your own copy of the classic textbook by Ouspensky: The Meaning of Icons.
She was also holding the pine tree.

Wrong. She is clearly pointing to the pine tree:

Do you often point to something with five fingers?  I don't.

I do. In this part  of the  world it is considered rude to point with one finger.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1463 on: March 26, 2016, 03:35:02 PM »
A variation of well-known icon:


Maybe schlock?:


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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1464 on: March 26, 2016, 04:06:35 PM »
Yeah those last two are weird. I kinda like the first one, though.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1465 on: March 26, 2016, 05:19:48 PM »
Sparkles/stars are throwing me. Everything else looks right.


« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 05:21:04 PM by Agabus »
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1466 on: March 26, 2016, 09:55:35 PM »
Sparkles/stars are throwing me. Everything else looks right.



You're right on time.  ;)

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1467 on: March 27, 2016, 11:44:31 AM »
Sparkles/stars are throwing me. Everything else looks right.



Nothing unusual.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1468 on: March 27, 2016, 12:19:54 PM »
Sparkles/stars are throwing me. Everything else looks right.



Nothing unusual.

I've never seen a harrowing of hades icon with stars like that. Just thought it was different, not wrong, per se. Most I've seen have had ray of light lines coming off of Christ
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1469 on: March 28, 2016, 02:03:56 AM »


Ah, yes. The ever-elusive iconographic depiction of dice.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1470 on: March 28, 2016, 07:38:02 AM »
Sparkles/stars are throwing me. Everything else looks right.



Nothing unusual.

I've never seen a harrowing of hades icon with stars like that. Just thought it was different, not wrong, per se. Most I've seen have had ray of light lines coming off of Christ

I've seen:



Don't know what is it, seems to be Russian/another Eastern Slavic:



One more:
« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 07:45:35 AM by Dominika »
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1471 on: March 29, 2016, 03:20:38 AM »
One more:


What's strange about that?
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1472 on: March 29, 2016, 04:56:46 PM »
One more:


What's strange about that?

The naturalistic background. I actually really like it. Normally that's sort of realism is only in Russian icons but this one is Greek, I think.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1473 on: March 29, 2016, 05:29:22 PM »
One more:


What's strange about that?

The naturalistic background. I actually really like it. Normally that's sort of realism is only in Russian icons but this one is Greek, I think.
Exactly, that's what I meant.
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Offline HaydenTE

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1474 on: March 29, 2016, 05:35:53 PM »
One more:


What's strange about that?

The naturalistic background. I actually really like it. Normally that's sort of realism is only in Russian icons but this one is Greek, I think.
Exactly, that's what I meant.
Some people aren't used to that. It's only common in Russia and then only with State Church icons. Most other traditions rarely deviate from a gold leaf or dark blue background.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1475 on: March 29, 2016, 06:03:20 PM »
What Dominika posted is indeed Greek, and typical of the later Cretan School period, which gradually incorporated Renaissance imagery and painting styles through iconographers being influenced by Venetian art of the time, whether through Venetian rule of the region, or by their travels to Italy.

The iconographers Tzannes, Lambardos and Damaskinos are well known for such a blended style, where the main figures are often painted in a traditional non-realistic style, while backgrounds and other details are jarringly naturalistic and animated. As time passed, their work more and more resembled western European art in style and composition.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1476 on: March 29, 2016, 06:32:27 PM »

Our Lady of Art Deco?

Seriously, this style was briefly popular in the fifties and early sixties before it was crushed by abstract expressionism on the one side and Ikea Catholicism on the other. Of course if the Novgorod school is your model of iconography you are required to hate this, but I wouldn't call it schlock.

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1477 on: March 29, 2016, 07:06:20 PM »

Our Lady of Art Deco?

Seriously, this style was briefly popular in the fifties and early sixties before it was crushed by abstract expressionism on the one side and Ikea Catholicism on the other. Of course if the Novgorod school is your model of iconography you are required to hate this, but I wouldn't call it schlock.

Ikea Catholicism!  LOL I nominate that phrase for humorous post of the month.

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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1478 on: March 29, 2016, 11:19:02 PM »

Our Lady of Art Deco?

Seriously, this style was briefly popular in the fifties and early sixties before it was crushed by abstract expressionism on the one side and Ikea Catholicism on the other. Of course if the Novgorod school is your model of iconography you are required to hate this, but I wouldn't call it schlock.

I call it beautiful.
I should stop coming to this these threads, as what is called strange & schlock, some I call stunning, moving and beautiful.
Not being a 'pure-bred' Orthodox shows, eh?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 11:19:32 PM by LenInSebastopol »
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1479 on: March 29, 2016, 11:30:08 PM »

Our Lady of Art Deco?

Seriously, this style was briefly popular in the fifties and early sixties before it was crushed by abstract expressionism on the one side and Ikea Catholicism on the other. Of course if the Novgorod school is your model of iconography you are required to hate this, but I wouldn't call it schlock.

I call it beautiful.
I should stop coming to this these threads, as what is called strange & schlock, some I call stunning, moving and beautiful.
Not being a 'pure-bred' Orthodox shows, eh?
I like it too.  But then I like Art Deco.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1480 on: March 31, 2016, 11:20:18 AM »
The icon on the left
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1481 on: March 31, 2016, 11:22:55 AM »
The icon on the left


Belarusian Elevation icon.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1482 on: March 31, 2016, 01:36:29 PM »
The icon on the left

My my, those are beautiful! Where are they from? And what's so strange about the one on the left? It's your average nativity.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1483 on: March 31, 2016, 02:50:34 PM »
My my, those are beautiful! Where are they from? And what's so strange about the one on the left? It's your average nativity.
Pirot (Serbia), XVIII century.
Some elements like the general construction of the cave, the trees in its frame, the lines in it being-don't-know-what and a kind of starts in it, little Christ being on a carpet (?) and so on.
It's like a mix of Western (Austrian) and Bulgarian influence.
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Re: Strange icons
« Reply #1484 on: March 31, 2016, 07:03:01 PM »
My my, those are beautiful! Where are they from? And what's so strange about the one on the left? It's your average nativity.
Pirot (Serbia), XVIII century.
Some elements like the general construction of the cave, the trees in its frame, the lines in it being-don't-know-what and a kind of starts in it, little Christ being on a carpet (?) and so on.
It's like a mix of Western (Austrian) and Bulgarian influence.
Interesting, I like them!
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