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« on: July 24, 2014, 07:48:26 PM »

As a Christian I don't think the death penalty should be supported. I understand that there is a biblical precedent, but I don't believe it is good to follow in practice. Reason being, that repentance can save someone from sin, and I think that someone should have the most time possible to make that repentance.

Does the OC have a doctrine on this?
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2014, 07:52:13 PM »


Thou shalt not kill.

That means abortion, capital punishment, etc.

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« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2014, 07:56:42 PM »

I believe that the death penalty--provided it's actually carried out--is a much humaner alternative to being locked in a cage forever only to be tormented by other criminals and guards. AFAIK, the Church does not have an official stance on this although the Church advocated the death penalty for people who made pagan sacrifices and monastics used to harbor criminals who were facing a death penalty. There is room for opinion.
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« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2014, 08:26:19 PM »

I believe that the death penalty--provided it's actually carried out--is a much humaner alternative to being locked in a cage forever only to be tormented by other criminals and guards. AFAIK, the Church does not have an official stance on this although the Church advocated the death penalty for people who made pagan sacrifices and monastics used to harbor criminals who were facing a death penalty. There is room for opinion.
Personally I think the literal adherence to OT regulations about the death penalty would make most of us dead. I think they are better understood as the right punishment in theory, but in practice we have our lives to repent and I think it is cruel to cut that short.

Plus there is always that chance the person is not guilty and how much worse is it to kill an innocent person?
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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2014, 09:34:13 PM »

I don't believe the Church has ever dogmatically laid anything down on the issue as it is a governmental issue, not a religious one.  That being said, the Church obviously teaches that we should demonstrate compassion and mercy to all and desires all to come to repentance.  I don't know how that is possible by killing them.
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« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2014, 02:29:10 AM »


Thou shalt not kill.

That means abortion, capital punishment, etc.



It's "Thou shalt not murder." There's a  difference between killing and murdering.  Thou shalt not kill is a mistranslation found in the KJV.
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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2014, 08:34:20 AM »


Thou shalt not kill.

That means abortion, capital punishment, etc.



It's "Thou shalt not murder." There's a  difference between killing and murdering.  Thou shalt not kill is a mistranslation found in the KJV.

It is a common misunderstanding that the commandment is, "Thou shalt not kill". The commandment is that, "Thou shalt not murder". A very different one than the all too common mistranslation into English.

Abortion is, of course, murder of the unborn child. (I have yet to meet a woman carrying a foetus, as in conversation this description of the expected child is one I have yet to hear but is favoured by the so-called 'Pro-choice' apologists in a disengenuous attempt to dehumanise the growing child within the womb).
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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2014, 09:41:29 AM »

I understand that Russia abolished capital punishment for murder already in the later 19th century, though they kept it for treason, I think. Apparently conservative journalists at the time were complaining about encroaching liberalism and why every Christian state ought to have capital punishment. The Soviet government, of course, reintroduced it for many new crimes, since that's what left-wingers did back in the day. Gotta exterminate those counter-revolutionaries!

People talk about Imperial Russia as if it were basically Stalinism without the Stalin, but there actually seems to have been a lot of free and open discussion in the press in the decades leading up to WWI. Whatever censorship there was doesn't seem to have been very effective. Reading the political debates of the time often brings me a sense of deja-vu.
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« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2014, 10:34:26 AM »

Does the OC have a doctrine on this?

No.
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« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2014, 10:56:15 AM »


Thou shalt not kill.

That means abortion, capital punishment, etc.



It's "Thou shalt not murder." There's a  difference between killing and murdering.  Thou shalt not kill is a mistranslation found in the KJV.
Is this based off of the Greek or Hebrew? If so, what are the two disparate pairs of words used, and where?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 10:56:29 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2014, 11:28:17 AM »

I understand that Russia abolished capital punishment for murder already in the later 19th century, though they kept it for treason, I think. Apparently conservative journalists at the time were complaining about encroaching liberalism and why every Christian state ought to have capital punishment. The Soviet government, of course, reintroduced it for many new crimes, since that's what left-wingers did back in the day. Gotta exterminate those counter-revolutionaries!

People talk about Imperial Russia as if it were basically Stalinism without the Stalin, but there actually seems to have been a lot of free and open discussion in the press in the decades leading up to WWI. Whatever censorship there was doesn't seem to have been very effective. Reading the political debates of the time often brings me a sense of deja-vu.
Hmm... The Czars certainly never struck me as particularly nice to dissent. But I suppose anything was better than Stalin.

Russian politics haven't really seemed to have recovered from so many years of atheistic communism.
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2014, 11:32:34 AM »

I understand that Russia abolished capital punishment for murder already in the later 19th century, though they kept it for treason, I think. Apparently conservative journalists at the time were complaining about encroaching liberalism and why every Christian state ought to have capital punishment. The Soviet government, of course, reintroduced it for many new crimes, since that's what left-wingers did back in the day. Gotta exterminate those counter-revolutionaries!

People talk about Imperial Russia as if it were basically Stalinism without the Stalin, but there actually seems to have been a lot of free and open discussion in the press in the decades leading up to WWI. Whatever censorship there was doesn't seem to have been very effective. Reading the political debates of the time often brings me a sense of deja-vu.
Hmm... The Czars certainly never struck me as particularly nice to dissent. But I suppose anything was better than Stalin.

Russian politics haven't really seemed to have recovered from so many years of atheistic communism.
I'm not sure they ever recovered from the Mongol invasion much less communism.
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2014, 12:37:05 PM »

I understand that Russia abolished capital punishment for murder already in the later 19th century, though they kept it for treason, I think. Apparently conservative journalists at the time were complaining about encroaching liberalism and why every Christian state ought to have capital punishment. The Soviet government, of course, reintroduced it for many new crimes, since that's what left-wingers did back in the day. Gotta exterminate those counter-revolutionaries!

People talk about Imperial Russia as if it were basically Stalinism without the Stalin, but there actually seems to have been a lot of free and open discussion in the press in the decades leading up to WWI. Whatever censorship there was doesn't seem to have been very effective. Reading the political debates of the time often brings me a sense of deja-vu.
Hmm... The Czars certainly never struck me as particularly nice to dissent. But I suppose anything was better than Stalin.

Russian politics haven't really seemed to have recovered from so many years of atheistic communism.
I'm not sure they ever recovered from the Mongol invasion much less communism.

By the time of Nicholas II there was plenty of open dissent. Left-wing and liberal newspapers were openly critical of the monarchy and the established church, and in fact even many in the church were openly critical of the monarchy. As some historians have noted, Tsar Nicholas fell not because he was too cruel but because he was too nice.
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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2014, 05:52:29 AM »


Thou shalt not kill.

That means abortion, capital punishment, etc.



It's "Thou shalt not murder." There's a  difference between killing and murdering.  Thou shalt not kill is a mistranslation found in the KJV.
Is this based off of the Greek or Hebrew? If so, what are the two disparate pairs of words used, and where?
It's "οὐ φονεύσεις" in the Septuagint, the verb "φονεύω" means "to murder, slay". The generic verb for killing is "κτείνω/ἀποκτείνω" (to put to death, kill). 
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« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2014, 07:05:38 AM »

I personally don't believe in capital punishment, however, I must concur with James on this one. Being locked in a cage for the rest of your life is pretty horrible too.

Sooner or later we're going to have to decide if imprisonment is either punishment or rehabilitation. It cant be a little of both, because it'll be neither.

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« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2014, 02:37:14 PM »

I think the retributive element in punishment is often denigrated as vindictive but nevertheless it is essential to a legal system that is based on the assumption of human freedom and responsibility. I don't want to live in a Brave New World where we are carefully engineered so that we never have any criminal urges and likewise never have the freedom or even ability to dissent from those in power. I want to live in a society where we are taught to follow the rules but where we are free to break them provided we know that such behavior incurs a penalty.
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« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2014, 03:39:32 PM »

In Dr. Kyriakos Markides' book, The Mountain of Silence, he mentions that the monastery run by his spiritual father started a monastery for male prison inmates who could opt to go there instead of a regular prison. This would truly be a place for spiritual renewal and repentance.  However, the inmates were expected to attend regular prayer services and do obediences around the monastery -- gardening, cooking, etc.

The man who murdered the Catholic saint, Maria Goretti of Italy, was originally given a prison term, but then he was released and went to live as a lay brother in a Catholic monastery. Apparently, he was visited in nightmarish dreams by Maria Goretti and finally repented of killing her when she would not consent to having her virginity violated.

Repentance is possible. Should we sent men and women murderers to a secular prison where they have almost no chance of repentance due to the very environment they are forced to live in?
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« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2014, 03:43:15 PM »

Repentance is possible. Should we sent men and women murderers to a secular prison where they have almost no chance of repentance due to the very environment they are forced to live in?
For what it's worth, a handful of men have been tonsured Orthodox monks in state prisons.

This in no way detracts from the fact that the prison system/industry as such is a corrupt body, but even in such circumstances God can make a way.
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« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2014, 04:32:00 PM »

Repentance is possible. Should we sent men and women murderers to a secular prison where they have almost no chance of repentance due to the very environment they are forced to live in?
For what it's worth, a handful of men have been tonsured Orthodox monks in state prisons.


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« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2014, 09:50:31 PM »

It's "οὐ φονεύσεις" in the Septuagint, the verb "φονεύω" means "to murder, slay". The generic verb for killing is "κτείνω/ἀποκτείνω" (to put to death, kill). 
And how is the distinction manifest through use?
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« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2014, 03:11:42 PM »

Does anyone know if St. John Chrysostom has anything to say in this matter, since he seems to have written about every topic imaginable? 

As for the commandment, seeing as the same book that contains the Ten Commandments proscribes executions for various offenses, it seems preposterous to think that God forbids killing for any reason...seeing as He orders it at times.  Also, the Old Testament is chock full of people killing with God's blessing.  God gave Sampson his strength back just so he could grease a few more Philistines when checking out.

As my priest says, "You cannot be holier than God." 

That said, there are many in the Church hierarchy that voice opposition to the death penalty.  That is why I am interested in what the Fathers have to say about it.  I have a feeling that they might give reasons as to why we should or should not, rather than can or cannot, since the latter is rather well detailed in the scriptures.
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« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2014, 03:19:30 PM »

It's "οὐ φονεύσεις" in the Septuagint, the verb "φονεύω" means "to murder, slay". The generic verb for killing is "κτείνω/ἀποκτείνω" (to put to death, kill).  
And how is the distinction manifest through use?
In ancient Greek?
Ἠκούσατε ὅτι ἐρρέθη τοῖς ἀρχαίοις· Οὐ φονεύσεις· ὃς δ’ ἂν φονεύσῃ, ἔνοχος ἔσται τῇ κρίσει (Matth. 5:21)

Ἰερουσαλὴμ Ἰερουσαλήμ, ἡ ἀποκτείνουσα τοὺς προφήτας καὶ λιθοβολοῦσα τοὺς ἀπεσταλμένους πρὸς αὐτήν (Matth. 27:37)

The difference between the two is that φονεύω presupposes premeditated malice, while ἀποκτείνω does not (in fact in Attic Greek the expanded form of ἀποκτείνω, ἀποκτείνυμι was the prevailing verb associated with death, instead of ἀποθνήσκω; a 5th century BC Athenian lying on his bed approaching death, would have used ἀποκτείνυμι instead of ἀποθνήσκω for I'm dying)
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« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2014, 11:35:48 PM »

Jerusalem didn't maliciously destroy its prophets?
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« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2014, 01:48:29 PM »

I understand that Russia abolished capital punishment for murder already in the later 19th century, though they kept it for treason, I think. Apparently conservative journalists at the time were complaining about encroaching liberalism and why every Christian state ought to have capital punishment. The Soviet government, of course, reintroduced it for many new crimes, since that's what left-wingers did back in the day. Gotta exterminate those counter-revolutionaries!

People talk about Imperial Russia as if it were basically Stalinism without the Stalin, but there actually seems to have been a lot of free and open discussion in the press in the decades leading up to WWI. Whatever censorship there was doesn't seem to have been very effective. Reading the political debates of the time often brings me a sense of deja-vu.

in fact in the 100 years leading up to the Bolshevik revolution there were less than 7000 death sentences and less than 4000 actual executions by the czars.And in less than 75 years the soviet union killed almost 25 million  innocent people
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« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2014, 02:07:23 PM »

I understand that Russia abolished capital punishment for murder already in the later 19th century, though they kept it for treason, I think. Apparently conservative journalists at the time were complaining about encroaching liberalism and why every Christian state ought to have capital punishment. The Soviet government, of course, reintroduced it for many new crimes, since that's what left-wingers did back in the day. Gotta exterminate those counter-revolutionaries!

People talk about Imperial Russia as if it were basically Stalinism without the Stalin, but there actually seems to have been a lot of free and open discussion in the press in the decades leading up to WWI. Whatever censorship there was doesn't seem to have been very effective. Reading the political debates of the time often brings me a sense of deja-vu.

in fact in the 100 years leading up to the Bolshevik revolution there were less than 7000 death sentences and less than 4000 actual executions by the czars.And in less than 75 years the soviet union killed almost 25 million  innocent people
Since the American Revolution it seems that rebellion has become rather glorified. In truth, it was not really that revolutionary. You see the leaders of the colonies under British rule (Jefferson, Adams, Washington and Franklin) were all still the leaders after they separated. But, in fact, nearly every revolution that has actually overthrown one set of rulers and replaced them with another different set, has never ended well. Let me list some, Russia, France, Iran, China... I believe tyranny is bad, but still better than anarchy.
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« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2014, 02:21:31 PM »


Thou shalt not kill.

That means abortion, capital punishment, etc.

It's "Thou shalt not murder." There's a  difference between killing and murdering.  Thou shalt not kill is a mistranslation found in the KJV.
Is this based off of the Greek or Hebrew? If so, what are the two disparate pairs of words used, and where?
It's "οὐ φονεύσεις" in the Septuagint, the verb "φονεύω" means "to murder, slay". The generic verb for killing is "κτείνω/ἀποκτείνω" (to put to death, kill). 

The usages weren't that clear-cut.
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« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2014, 02:28:14 PM »


Thou shalt not kill.

That means abortion, capital punishment, etc.

It's "Thou shalt not murder." There's a  difference between killing and murdering.  Thou shalt not kill is a mistranslation found in the KJV.
Is this based off of the Greek or Hebrew? If so, what are the two disparate pairs of words used, and where?
It's "οὐ φονεύσεις" in the Septuagint, the verb "φονεύω" means "to murder, slay". The generic verb for killing is "κτείνω/ἀποκτείνω" (to put to death, kill). 

The usages weren't that clear-cut.

Explain how. You can't just make an assertion like this and leave it. Explain.
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« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2014, 11:57:58 AM »


Thou shalt not kill.

That means abortion, capital punishment, etc.

It's "Thou shalt not murder." There's a  difference between killing and murdering.  Thou shalt not kill is a mistranslation found in the KJV.
Is this based off of the Greek or Hebrew? If so, what are the two disparate pairs of words used, and where?
It's "οὐ φονεύσεις" in the Septuagint, the verb "φονεύω" means "to murder, slay". The generic verb for killing is "κτείνω/ἀποκτείνω" (to put to death, kill).  

The usages weren't that clear-cut.

Explain how. You can't just make an assertion like this and leave it. Explain.
Well, he's responding to an un-supported assertion, so the burden of explanation really isn't on him. But as it stands, in the "Jerusalem, Jerusalem" example, apokteinou is used in the same way that murder would be used.
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