Author Topic: Question about purification after death  (Read 563 times)

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Offline Al Masihi

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Question about purification after death
« on: October 06, 2018, 10:37:34 AM »
When we die do we wait in a middle state until judgement day and is there a purification state before we may enter heaven?

Online Luke

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2018, 10:43:26 AM »
What I hear is that we are sent to a place that gives us either a taste of the good or bad.  I do not know if the place is called Paradise just for the good or for the bad also.  At the final judgment, after the second coming, we are reunited with our bodies and given a final judgment.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2018, 11:02:30 AM »
Yea there is a purification after death and our prayers on earth help in this. Apart from that it’s not very defined.
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Offline Al Masihi

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What happens after we die?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2018, 11:31:40 AM »
Is there purification after we die, do we go to heaven or hell directly or do we wait till judgement day? I’m completely confused on this.

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2018, 11:45:11 AM »
we can pray for the souls that get a taste of Hades and because God is merciful they can be pulled out of Hades and into Heaven
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Offline Al Masihi

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2018, 12:26:02 PM »
How does this differ from the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory?

Online Luke

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Re: What happens after we die?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2018, 12:29:23 PM »
What I hear is that, before the second coming, our souls go to a place.  We are judged and given a taste of the good or bad that we will receive later.  After the second coming, we are reunited with our bodies and face the final judgment.

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2018, 12:54:21 PM »
How does this differ from the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory?

Chiefly in the legal character of the doctrine of Purgatory. In that understanding, a person incurs two debts when they sin, the eternal debt and the temporal debt. The former is an infinite debt and can only be removed by God, which is accomplished by the death of Christ. The temporal debt must be paid by the sinner through penance, either through voluntary mortifications in this life or suffering in Purgatory. The debt "owed" can be reduced by indulgences instead of mortifications. I'm sure someone else could find more to say.
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Offline Al Masihi

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2018, 12:59:23 PM »
If I myself do believe there is a state of purification before entering heaven which we all faithful must go through, while I don’t believe in the Latin concept of fire and torment in purgatory, would I be heretical?

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2018, 12:13:44 PM »
no
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Offline WPM

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2018, 02:48:19 PM »
If I myself do believe there is a state of purification before entering heaven which we all faithful must go through, while I don’t believe in the Latin concept of fire and torment in purgatory, would I be heretical?

No.
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Offline biro

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2018, 04:32:06 PM »
Let me see if I have this right.

The Roman Catholics are wrong when they say Purgatory is a separate place (they believe in Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory).

But there may be some kind of purification after we die, no matter where it is located.

Am I close to being right?  :)
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2018, 05:15:00 PM »
Let me see if I have this right.

The Roman Catholics are wrong when they say Purgatory is a separate place (they believe in Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory).

But there may be some kind of purification after we die, no matter where it is located.

Am I close to being right?  :)
I never heard of a purification of any kind. I have heard that our prayers are helpful to those in hell and one can be prayed out of it.
In orthodoxy heaven and hell are not a separate place. its the condition of ones soul that dictates how they respond to gods love and grace. There is no separate place like in the RCC.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 05:16:25 PM by Tzimis »

Offline biro

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2018, 05:30:59 PM »
I've heard that not every Orthodox believes that.

Since I've been in the Orthodox Church, I've never known what to believe about half the things we talk about.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2018, 05:40:20 PM »
I've heard that not every Orthodox believes that.

Since I've been in the Orthodox Church, I've never known what to believe about half the things we talk about.

A lot of converts bringing baggage with them.

Heaven is a renewal of earth. Its a perfecting of what we already have. Not some other life.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2018, 11:45:58 AM »

I believe that upon death, on the 40th day our souls are taken before the Lord, for a "particular" judgment.  If we've basically been "good" than we are given a foretaste of heaven, and if not...then we get to see what horrors await us at the Final Judgment.

Purification?  No.  There's absolutely nothing the soul can do at this point to change their future.

HOWEVER, the living can pray for them, speak up for them, give alms in their memory, thereby, easing their suffering (as if they were the ones doing the good deeds).  It is up to us, the living, to help our dead.

I may be mistaken, but, I believe St. Xenia, upon becoming a widow, donned her husband's clothing, and did good deeds the rest of her life under his name.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2018, 12:34:59 PM »

I believe that upon death, on the 40th day our souls are taken before the Lord, for a "particular" judgment.  If we've basically been "good" than we are given a foretaste of heaven, and if not...then we get to see what horrors await us at the Final Judgment.

Purification?  No.  There's absolutely nothing the soul can do at this point to change their future.

HOWEVER, the living can pray for them, speak up for them, give alms in their memory, thereby, easing their suffering (as if they were the ones doing the good deeds).  It is up to us, the living, to help our dead.

I may be mistaken, but, I believe St. Xenia, upon becoming a widow, donned her husband's clothing, and did good deeds the rest of her life under his name.
This 40-day judgement is something I have heard from various (Russian) Orthodox sources now.
Can you give more information about it? Where does this come from? Is this found across all Orthodoxy, or more a Russian (Ukrainian) thing?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 12:36:22 PM by Lepanto »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2018, 12:55:46 PM »
I cannot answer that, because the "Ukrainian" thing, is all I know.  :)

We've been taught that having been given a foretaste of both options, on the 40th day the soul once again stands before God for their personal judgment.

I am always willing to learn...so, if someone has something to add...I'd be interested in reading about it.
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Offline Lepanto

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2018, 01:17:07 PM »
I cannot answer that, because the "Ukrainian" thing, is all I know.  :)

We've been taught that having been given a foretaste of both options, on the 40th day the soul once again stands before God for their personal judgment.

I am always willing to learn...so, if someone has something to add...I'd be interested in reading about it.
Ok. I heard the 40-day-judgement thing first  from my mother-in-law who is Russian.
But there must be something more behind that.
Does anyone have written sources?
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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2018, 01:24:40 PM »
In his book Life After Death, Met. Hierotheos of Nafpaktos notes the common belief in the 40-day after death period, but also says he has never found anything in the tradition to justify it.
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2018, 01:37:11 PM »
40 factors largely in Scripture?
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Al Masihi

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2018, 02:52:32 PM »
Let me see if I have this right.

The Roman Catholics are wrong when they say Purgatory is a separate place (they believe in Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory).

But there may be some kind of purification after we die, no matter where it is located.

Am I close to being right?  :)
I believe it’s more of an experience or state rather than a literal place.

Offline biro

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2018, 06:30:59 PM »
Thanks.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2018, 02:01:53 AM »
How does this differ from the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory?
Because of the reason the soul is in that state.  To Catholics, because, though sins are forgiven, they still demand satisfaction.

The Roman Catholics are wrong when they say Purgatory is a separate place (they believe in Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory).
It's not a separate place.  Purgatory is on the right side of the afterlife, Heaven, but akin to its foyer, so to say.
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2018, 07:28:11 AM »
I do not believe one can change his reward or fate but those who commit sin not leading to death I believe may come to learn how wicked they were by punishment to stop sinning but they still carry the punishment of their sin even if they are saved. 

It is not a second chance for all sins that you can repent of and you don’t is not forgiven but you are still punished for those you committed which you can’t repent of to learn a lesson. However as St. John says to pray that they may have life. I know it is thought to refer to in this life that they may overcome those sins that they may be more fruitful and blessed but if it works here I think perhaps it could work when they are dead at least to save them.

 It is not clear whether such prayers are needed to save them or to help them so you should pray in case it is needed to save them.
We may not know if one has commited sin which leads to death even if it appears so so we should pray anyway. However we should worry for ourselves and others living to seek the right way and to follow it. To make sure we are doing all the will of God

We don’t know God’s judgements but we must be safe 

Also we do not know if there is need for prayer for the dead for God may already repose them but we do not know so we should pray in case

I do not believe in such a thing as mortal and venial sin for all sin leads to death but mortal more easily. Also if there is some sins God will overlook it is not for us to define them

That which leads to death no prayer can help
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 07:37:02 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2018, 08:34:02 AM »
I think you are mistaken.

If alive - repentance and prayer does help.
If dead - the prayer of others on your behalf will help.

Many Church Fathers, and Saints, have written about the importance of prayer for those who have reposed.

If not important, then my does the Church designate specific days be set aside to pray for the dead?

St. Demetrios  Saturday, Saturday’s during Great Lent, etc.

Also why serve a memorial service/panakhyda if it won’t help?
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2018, 09:04:45 AM »
I did not say prayer for the dead does not help. I just don’t know. Some may think it is not needed but it may be important so we should

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2018, 02:17:34 PM »
I think there's probabaly a state of purification after death. The idea just makes sense to me, and clarifies why prayer for the dead is important. I don't even take issue with the word 'Purgatory' itself, only the legalistic, 'material fire' conception of it that St. Mark of Ephesus opposed.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Question about purification after death
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2018, 02:58:53 PM »
St Mark of Ephesus taught that there is purification after death, by means of fear and the torment of the conscience.
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When a time revolts against eternity, the only thing to set against it is genuine eternity itself, and not some other time which has already roused, and not without reason, a violent reaction against itself.
- Berdyaev

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