Author Topic: The Office of Priesthood  (Read 689 times)

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Offline Incognito777

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The Office of Priesthood
« on: August 29, 2015, 01:14:12 AM »
Hello,
Before I proceed, I must emphasize that I don't care for my user name. But at the time I joined, I was only intending to post temporarily. Sometimes what we intend to do, and actually do, turn out to be different.

At any-rate, let us proceed.

I believe in the Orthodox Church, and do not want to give the wrong impression. But I am concerned about the office of priesthood in the Church. When I look at the New Testament and the earliest Christian writings, I only see the offices of Bishop (AKA: Elder/Presbyter) and deacon. So where does the seperate office of priesthood come from? Thanks.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 01:16:44 AM by Incognito777 »

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2015, 01:17:53 AM »
I was under the impression bishop was episkopos, and priest was presbyter.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2015, 01:53:43 AM »
"priest" = prest=presbyter.
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Offline Incognito777

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2015, 03:41:37 PM »
I was under the impression bishop was episkopos, and priest was presbyter.

Episkopos is bishop, but the early Church viewed episkopos and presbyter as synonymous. Orthodox theologian, Father Laurent A. Cleenewerck observes: “I am well aware that the distinction between presbyteros and episkopos [bishop] is a delicate one. The consensus among scholars is that it cannot clearly be found in the New Testament or in such early works as 1 Clement. . .” (Laurent A. Cleenewerck, His Broken Body, [Euclid University Press, 2007], p. 72 brackets mine).

There is a Greek word for "priest" in the New Testament and it is not presbyter. Presbyteros simply means “older” (William D. Mounce, Mounce’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, [Zondervan, 2006], p. 208).

Offline Maria

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2015, 03:47:02 PM »
I was under the impression bishop was episkopos, and priest was presbyter.

Episkopos is bishop, but the early Church viewed episkopos and presbyter as synonymous. Orthodox theologian, Father Laurent A. Cleenewerck observes: “I am well aware that the distinction between presbyteros and episkopos [bishop] is a delicate one. The consensus among scholars is that it cannot clearly be found in the New Testament or in such early works as 1 Clement. . .” (Laurent A. Cleenewerck, His Broken Body, [Euclid University Press, 2007], p. 72 brackets mine).

There is a Greek word for "priest" in the New Testament and it is not presbyter. Presbyteros simply means “older” (William D. Mounce, Mounce’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, [Zondervan, 2006], p. 208).

In the Early Church, at first, there were only Bishops (the Apostles), then Deacons were ordained to help the Apostles care for widows, orphans, and the poor who did not have food. Only later on were Priests ordained to help the Apostles and Bishops in their work in the parishes. However, before Priests were ordained, every major church had a bishop in charge of the parish, and these Bishops (or overseers) were called Presbyters at first because the Presbyter was initially a Bishop.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 03:48:56 PM by Maria »
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2015, 05:51:25 PM »


There is a Greek word for "priest" in the New Testament and it is not presbyter. Presbyteros simply means “older”

Priest does come from presbyter. It is a barbarism that hiereus/hierevs is translated priest as well.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 05:53:14 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline Incognito777

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2015, 09:21:44 PM »
Maria,

When St. Paul listed the offices of the Church in Ephesians 4:11, we see the distinction between pastors (i.e. teachers/bishops) and apostles. The office of apostle is separate. There is no office of priesthood in the New Testament Church. The New Testament speaks of the priesthood of all believers.

Offline Incognito777

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2015, 09:32:31 PM »
Priest does come from presbyter. It is a barbarism that hiereus/hierevs is translated priest as well.

What source can you point me to supporting the above claim that "Priest" comes from "Presbyter"?  You did not address the quote I gave from Father Laurent. Presbyter does not mean priest. That this is the position of the majority of scholars is noted by Laurent A. Cleenewerck who observes:

“I am well aware that the distinction between presbyteros and episkopos [bishop] is a delicate one. The consensus among scholars is that it cannot clearly be found in the New Testament or in such early works as 1 Clement. . .” (Laurent A. Cleenewerck, His Broken Body, [Euclid University Press, 2007], p. 72 brackets mine).

Yes, the Greek word for priest is "hiereus." But never in the New Testament is a group presiding over the Eucharist and forgiveness of sins given this title. Instead all believers are given the title in 1 Peter 2:5, 9. As the eminent historian Jaroslav Pelikan confirms:

“In the New Testament itself the concept of ‘priest’ referred either to the Levites of the Old Testament, now made obsolete, or to Christ or to the entire church–not to the ordained ministry of the church” (Jaroslav Pelikan, The Christian Tradition: A History of the Development of Doctrine, Volume 1, [University of Chicago, 1971], p. 25).
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 09:35:53 PM by Incognito777 »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2015, 12:48:42 AM »
I was under the impression bishop was episkopos, and priest was presbyter.

Episkopos is bishop, but the early Church viewed episkopos and presbyter as synonymous. Orthodox theologian, Father Laurent A. Cleenewerck observes: “I am well aware that the distinction between presbyteros and episkopos [bishop] is a delicate one. The consensus among scholars is that it cannot clearly be found in the New Testament or in such early works as 1 Clement. . .” (Laurent A. Cleenewerck, His Broken Body, [Euclid University Press, 2007], p. 72 brackets mine).

There is a Greek word for "priest" in the New Testament and it is not presbyter. Presbyteros simply means “older” (William D. Mounce, Mounce’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, [Zondervan, 2006], p. 208).
Nor quite. The word already had a clerical connotation before the NT. See the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. It is also precluded by the Epistle to Timothy, in which St. Paul tells St. Timothy not to allow anyone to make an issue out of his young age:"Let no one despise you for your youth...Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the presbytery laid their hands on you."

The order of priest came out of the chorbishops, who first served as presbyters alongside the Apostles and then took their place as bishops, the (parish) priesthood taking the role thus vacated.

Priests are found in the epistles of St. Clement's (and the Apostles') contemporary St  Ignatius, so it's not an innovation.

Btw, "presbyter" is still the Greek word for priest, hence his wife is called "prebytera."
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 12:50:45 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline Incognito777

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2015, 01:30:41 AM »

Nor quite. The word already had a clerical connotation before the NT. See the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.

What word? Priest or presbyter? Cite the exact page in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.

It is also precluded by the Epistle to Timothy, in which St. Paul tells St. Timothy not to allow anyone to make an issue out of his young age:"Let no one despise you for your youth...Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the presbytery laid their hands on you."

I'm not sure I understand your point here. The Greek word in this passage is "presbyterion," and means body of elders. Again, elders are bishops. Timothy was not ordained by priests.

The order of priest came out of the chorbishops, who first served as presbyters alongside the Apostles and then took their place as bishops, the (parish) priesthood taking the role thus vacated.

My point is that there is no office of priesthood mentioned in the New Testament.

Priests are found in the epistles of St. Clement's (and the Apostles') contemporary St  Ignatius, so it's not an innovation.
.

Please cite specific references. In Clements first ’s Letter to the Corinthians, which was a letter written from Rome to Corinth, we see that the Corinthian Church still viewed presbyters and bishops synonymously. Presbyters were not priests who were distinct from bishops as we see in Catholicism and Orthodoxy “For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate [office of bishop] those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now” (Clement, Letter to the Corinthians, 44,  brackets mine).  In Polycarp’s Letter to the Philippians he shows that their church was still two-tiered, and that presbyters were therefore not priests distinct from bishops. He said to be “obedient to the presbyters and deacons as to God and Christ” (Polycarp, Letter to the Philippians, 5). The Didache, which is a late 1st century Christian manual written by students of the apostles, shows that they believed in this two-tiered system as well, making no mention of presbyters being distinct from bishops: “appoint yourselves bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord” (Didache, 15). The Church historian, Philip Schaff remarks, “The Didache (ch. 15) knows only bishops and deacons, as local officers, the former being identical with presbyters” (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Volume 1, [Hendrickson Publishers, 2011], p. 493 n. 6).

Btw, "presbyter" is still the Greek word for priest, hence his wife is called "prebytera."

Modern Greek is different from New Testament koine Greek so your point is irrelevant, even if true.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2015, 03:48:31 PM »

Nor quite. The word already had a clerical connotation before the NT. See the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.

What word? Priest or presbyter? Cite the exact page in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.

It is also precluded by the Epistle to Timothy, in which St. Paul tells St. Timothy not to allow anyone to make an issue out of his young age:"Let no one despise you for your youth...Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the presbytery laid their hands on you."

I'm not sure I understand your point here. The Greek word in this passage is "presbyterion," and means body of elders. Again, elders are bishops. Timothy was not ordained by priests.

The order of priest came out of the chorbishops, who first served as presbyters alongside the Apostles and then took their place as bishops, the (parish) priesthood taking the role thus vacated.

My point is that there is no office of priesthood mentioned in the New Testament.

Priests are found in the epistles of St. Clement's (and the Apostles') contemporary St  Ignatius, so it's not an innovation.
.

Please cite specific references. In Clements first ’s Letter to the Corinthians, which was a letter written from Rome to Corinth, we see that the Corinthian Church still viewed presbyters and bishops synonymously. Presbyters were not priests who were distinct from bishops as we see in Catholicism and Orthodoxy “For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate [office of bishop] those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now” (Clement, Letter to the Corinthians, 44,  brackets mine).  In Polycarp’s Letter to the Philippians he shows that their church was still two-tiered, and that presbyters were therefore not priests distinct from bishops. He said to be “obedient to the presbyters and deacons as to God and Christ” (Polycarp, Letter to the Philippians, 5). The Didache, which is a late 1st century Christian manual written by students of the apostles, shows that they believed in this two-tiered system as well, making no mention of presbyters being distinct from bishops: “appoint yourselves bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord” (Didache, 15). The Church historian, Philip Schaff remarks, “The Didache (ch. 15) knows only bishops and deacons, as local officers, the former being identical with presbyters” (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Volume 1, [Hendrickson Publishers, 2011], p. 493 n. 6).

Btw, "presbyter" is still the Greek word for priest, hence his wife is called "prebytera."

Modern Greek is different from New Testament koine Greek so your point is irrelevant, even if true.
I'll get to the rest when I have time, Lord willing, but your last point is very easy and quick: any etymological dictionary will show you that priest/Priester/priester/prest/prêtre/preot etc. <presbyter, just as bishop/Bischoff/bisschop/biskop/évêque/episcop etc. <episkopos

MG is different from Koine, but not utterly different. Many words, like presbyteros, mean the same now as they did then (and yes, it's in the NT). Hence the relevance, besides being true.

As to the TDNT, you'll have to look up the entry "presbyteros." I don't have a handy copy and it's sometimes near nigh impossible to search on line.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2015, 06:47:25 PM »
What source can you point me to supporting the above claim that "Priest" comes from "Presbyter"? 
Here you go: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=priest
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest#Etymology
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 06:48:36 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline Hinterlander

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2015, 10:20:58 PM »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2015, 12:21:46 AM »
Priests are found in the epistles of St. Clement's (and the Apostles') contemporary St  Ignatius, so it's not an innovation.
.

Please cite specific references. In Clements first ’s Letter to the Corinthians, which was a letter written from Rome to Corinth, we see that the Corinthian Church still viewed presbyters and bishops synonymously. Presbyters were not priests who were distinct from bishops as we see in Catholicism and Orthodoxy “For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate [office of bishop] those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now” (Clement, Letter to the Corinthians, 44,  brackets mine).  In Polycarp’s Letter to the Philippians he shows that their church was still two-tiered, and that presbyters were therefore not priests distinct from bishops. He said to be “obedient to the presbyters and deacons as to God and Christ” (Polycarp, Letter to the Philippians, 5). The Didache, which is a late 1st century Christian manual written by students of the apostles, shows that they believed in this two-tiered system as well, making no mention of presbyters being distinct from bishops: “appoint yourselves bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord” (Didache, 15). The Church historian, Philip Schaff remarks, “The Didache (ch. 15) knows only bishops and deacons, as local officers, the former being identical with presbyters” (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Volume 1, [Hendrickson Publishers, 2011], p. 493 n. 6).
I still don't have time, but in the meantime, this pamphlet on St. Ignatius' Epistles does a decent job on touching on the issues, including the office of priest in the NT.
https://books.google.com/books?id=5WMMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=Ignatius+epistles+priests&source=bl&ots=BGUSOvruaz&sig=IYcNEGAozdmq_hYKjKe6PRBbynI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBGoVChMI-rXqqrfSxwIVAiA-Ch04AA5j#v=onepage&q=presbyters&f=false
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 12:22:13 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline Incognito777

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2015, 12:58:03 AM »
Nicholas,

The Wikipedia link you directed me to says "The word "priest", is ultimately derived from Greek, via Latin presbyter." And it referenced Websters dictionary. This statement doesn't make sense. It was probably edited by a Roman Catholic. Editing is allowed on Wikipedia, so always be careful what you read there  What does it mean "via Latin presbyter"? The New Testament Greek words for priest are archiereus and hiereus.

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2015, 01:10:02 AM »
I still don't have time, but in the meantime, this pamphlet on St. Ignatius' Epistles does a decent job on touching on the issues, including the office of priest in the NT.
https://books.google.com/books?id=5WMMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=Ignatius+epistles+priests&source=bl&ots=BGUSOvruaz&sig=IYcNEGAozdmq_hYKjKe6PRBbynI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBGoVChMI-rXqqrfSxwIVAiA-Ch04AA5j#v=onepage&q=presbyters&f=false

The way that a priesthood emerged as presbyters distinct from bishops was due to the fact that certain church writers departed from the biblical two-tiered model of presbyter/bishops and deacons, and instead adopted a three-tiered structure of single bishop, subordinate presbyters and then deacons. Ignatius of Antioch writing at the end of the 1st century supported this model (Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians, 4), though he does not teach presbyters were priests in charge of Eucharist, hearing confessions and forgiving sins as we see in Rome and Orthodoxy. It would take quite a while for these distinct presbyters to be seen as the New Covenant priesthood.

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2015, 01:56:51 AM »
Even if there was a gap in time between the growth in orders of the clergy, I don't think that would make the priesthood illegitimate. As the Church grew, she needed more people to help serve. It could be as simple as that. I mean, you can't run an airline with just one pilot. :)

Offline Incognito777

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2015, 02:00:50 AM »
Listen to Fr. Thomas Hopko of Blessed Memory on Bishops.
http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/bishops_part_2_the_new_testament_and_early_church_model

Father Thomas states: "you can't have the church without bishops, priests or deacons."

That statement is patently false. He did not offer a shred of proof for that claim. There is no office of priesthood in the New Testament Church, and Father Thomas even admits it in his talk.

He also states: "What we want to say right now is that in the New Testament, you already have emerging what we call the three-fold ministry that belongs to the very structure of the Church. You have bishops, you have presbyters, and you have deacons. You may even have had a kind of a two-fold in the beginning: the presbyter-bishop and then the deacons. "

Why isn't that a contradictory statement? He admits in the talk that the bishop is the same as the presbyter, so I don't see where he finds the three-fold ministry in the New Testament Church.

Father Thomas recommends the writings of St. Ignatius, but says nothing about the controversy surrounding the authorship of his epistles. But then he questions the pauline authorship of the Epistle to the Ephesians. This shows he has been influenced by modernism.

Nothing in the talk refutes my thesis. I don't deny that there eventually evolved a three-tiered system.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 02:10:11 AM by Incognito777 »

Offline Incognito777

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2015, 02:04:52 AM »
Even if there was a gap in time between the growth in orders of the clergy, I don't think that would make the priesthood illegitimate. As the Church grew, she needed more people to help serve. It could be as simple as that. I mean, you can't run an airline with just one pilot. :)

That's an opinion, but it's not apostolic. In Christianity we are not allowed to innovate. The priests today lord over their people and exercise an authority which the apostles never gave them.

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2015, 02:10:15 AM »
This statement doesn't make sense.
Well, we'll work on it together, Incognito.

What does it mean "via Latin presbyter"? The New Testament Greek words for priest are archiereus and hiereus.
Priest derives from the Latin word presbyter, which in turn derives from the Greek word presbyteros. That's why the words sort of sound the same.

Unfortunately, when some people translated the bible into English, they translated both presbyteros and hiereus as "priest." And that became very popular. And so there is a lot of confusion, which leads modern translators to translate "presbyteros" as "elder" in order to differentiate them. Even though it would make more sense to translate "hiereus" as something else, and translate "presbyteros" as priest, because the latter is descended from the former.

But enough of that. I have two questions for you:

1. Do you think adam and eve were hieri/sacerdotal?
2. Did you know that we have a presbyterate in the Orthodox Church?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 02:14:59 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2015, 03:10:01 AM »
Even if there was a gap in time between the growth in orders of the clergy, I don't think that would make the priesthood illegitimate. As the Church grew, she needed more people to help serve. It could be as simple as that. I mean, you can't run an airline with just one pilot. :)

That's an opinion, but it's not apostolic. In Christianity we are not allowed to innovate.
Was it not an innovation for the Apostles to ordain seven men to serve as deacons?

The priests today lord over their people and exercise an authority which the apostles never gave them.
The same could be said of many bishops both now and throughout our history, but I doubt that you would deem the office of bishop not of apostolic origin.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2015, 08:36:34 AM »
Even if there was a gap in time between the growth in orders of the clergy, I don't think that would make the priesthood illegitimate. As the Church grew, she needed more people to help serve. It could be as simple as that. I mean, you can't run an airline with just one pilot. :)

That's an opinion, but it's not apostolic. In Christianity we are not allowed to innovate. The priests today lord over their people and exercise an authority which the apostles never gave them.

The Church IS apostolic. The office of the priest was established during the Apostolic Era. Perhaps, you will find it easier to approach the matter if you thought of priests as deputy bishops. The bishop is indeed the pastor (or arch-pastor) of any church within his diocese. He appoints priests to his churches and deputizes them to function as pastors. A priest cannot do anything that his bishop has not delegated to him. Does this help?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 08:37:24 AM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2015, 11:29:46 AM »
I still don't have time, but in the meantime, this pamphlet on St. Ignatius' Epistles does a decent job on touching on the issues, including the office of priest in the NT.
https://books.google.com/books?id=5WMMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=Ignatius+epistles+priests&source=bl&ots=BGUSOvruaz&sig=IYcNEGAozdmq_hYKjKe6PRBbynI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBGoVChMI-rXqqrfSxwIVAiA-Ch04AA5j#v=onepage&q=presbyters&f=false

The way that a priesthood emerged as presbyters distinct from bishops was due to the fact that certain church writers departed from the biblical two-tiered model of presbyter/bishops and deacons, and instead adopted a three-tiered structure of single bishop, subordinate presbyters and then deacons. Ignatius of Antioch writing at the end of the 1st century supported this model (Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians, 4), though he does not teach presbyters were priests in charge of Eucharist, hearing confessions and forgiving sins as we see in Rome and Orthodoxy. It would take quite a while for these distinct presbyters to be seen as the New Covenant priesthood.
I'll deal with your misunderstanding of St. Ignatius (and the Church) latter, but will just point out that it is rather hard for a Church writer like St. Ignatius to "depart" from the biblical two-tiered model when St. Ignatius was consecrated by the Apostles themselves before that part of the Bible was written.

"See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."

Whom do you think the bishops were entrusting?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 11:33:32 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2015, 11:38:10 AM »
Listen to Fr. Thomas Hopko of Blessed Memory on Bishops.
http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/bishops_part_2_the_new_testament_and_early_church_model

Father Thomas states: "you can't have the church without bishops, priests or deacons."

That statement is patently false. He did not offer a shred of proof for that claim. There is no office of priesthood in the New Testament Church, and Father Thomas even admits it in his talk.

He also states: "What we want to say right now is that in the New Testament, you already have emerging what we call the three-fold ministry that belongs to the very structure of the Church. You have bishops, you have presbyters, and you have deacons. You may even have had a kind of a two-fold in the beginning: the presbyter-bishop and then the deacons. "

Why isn't that a contradictory statement? He admits in the talk that the bishop is the same as the presbyter, so I don't see where he finds the three-fold ministry in the New Testament Church.

Father Thomas recommends the writings of St. Ignatius, but says nothing about the controversy surrounding the authorship of his epistles. But then he questions the pauline authorship of the Epistle to the Ephesians. This shows he has been influenced by modernism.

Nothing in the talk refutes my thesis. I don't deny that there eventually evolved a three-tiered system.
Why is it not contradictory that St. Peter the Apostle calls himself a "fellow presbyter/priest" in I Peter 5:1?

There is no controversy around St. Ignatius' epistles worth speaking about.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 11:39:11 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2015, 01:02:38 PM »
Even if there was a gap in time between the growth in orders of the clergy, I don't think that would make the priesthood illegitimate. As the Church grew, she needed more people to help serve. It could be as simple as that. I mean, you can't run an airline with just one pilot. :)

That's an opinion, but it's not apostolic. In Christianity we are not allowed to innovate. The priests today lord over their people and exercise an authority which the apostles never gave them.
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Offline biro

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2015, 01:04:26 PM »
Even if there was a gap in time between the growth in orders of the clergy, I don't think that would make the priesthood illegitimate. As the Church grew, she needed more people to help serve. It could be as simple as that. I mean, you can't run an airline with just one pilot. :)

That's an opinion, but it's not apostolic. In Christianity we are not allowed to innovate. The priests today lord over their people and exercise an authority which the apostles never gave them.

Huh? Are you getting this from Protestant websites?

 :o

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2015, 01:38:31 PM »
Listen to Fr. Thomas Hopko of Blessed Memory on Bishops.
http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/bishops_part_2_the_new_testament_and_early_church_model

Father Thomas states: "you can't have the church without bishops, priests or deacons."

That statement is patently false. He did not offer a shred of proof for that claim. There is no office of priesthood in the New Testament Church, and Father Thomas even admits it in his talk.

He also states: "What we want to say right now is that in the New Testament, you already have emerging what we call the three-fold ministry that belongs to the very structure of the Church. You have bishops, you have presbyters, and you have deacons. You may even have had a kind of a two-fold in the beginning: the presbyter-bishop and then the deacons. "

Why isn't that a contradictory statement? He admits in the talk that the bishop is the same as the presbyter, so I don't see where he finds the three-fold ministry in the New Testament Church.

Father Thomas recommends the writings of St. Ignatius, but says nothing about the controversy surrounding the authorship of his epistles. But then he questions the pauline authorship of the Epistle to the Ephesians. This shows he has been influenced by modernism.

Nothing in the talk refutes my thesis. I don't deny that there eventually evolved a three-tiered system.

Incognito777,

In spite of your past history, I'm willing to be patient with you if you are sincerely working through a doubt you have about some aspect of Orthodox faith and practice.  But if you are here to advocate for non-Orthodox beliefs or practices, or if you are here to cast aspersions on recognised Orthodox theologians without evidence--and your post above, among others, leads me to believe that this is a possibility--my patience will wear thin really fast.  Watch yourself.
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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2015, 02:10:12 PM »
Even if there was a gap in time between the growth in orders of the clergy, I don't think that would make the priesthood illegitimate. As the Church grew, she needed more people to help serve. It could be as simple as that. I mean, you can't run an airline with just one pilot. :)

That's an opinion, but it's not apostolic. In Christianity we are not allowed to innovate. The priests today lord over their people and exercise an authority which the apostles never gave them.
I've never had a priest lord over me about anything. I ask his opinion on things at times and he gives me counsel, but never orders.
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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2015, 02:20:51 PM »
Even if there was a gap in time between the growth in orders of the clergy, I don't think that would make the priesthood illegitimate. As the Church grew, she needed more people to help serve. It could be as simple as that. I mean, you can't run an airline with just one pilot. :)

That's an opinion, but it's not apostolic. In Christianity we are not allowed to innovate. The priests today lord over their people and exercise an authority which the apostles never gave them.
I've never had a priest lord over me about anything. I ask his opinion on things at times and he gives me counsel, but never orders.

I think the seminary or monastic experience weeds out those quite quickly.
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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2015, 02:22:21 PM »
Even if there was a gap in time between the growth in orders of the clergy, I don't think that would make the priesthood illegitimate. As the Church grew, she needed more people to help serve. It could be as simple as that. I mean, you can't run an airline with just one pilot. :)

That's an opinion, but it's not apostolic. In Christianity we are not allowed to innovate. The priests today lord over their people and exercise an authority which the apostles never gave them.
I've never had a priest lord over me about anything. I ask his opinion on things at times and he gives me counsel, but never orders.

I think the seminary or monastic experience weeds out those quite quickly.

Weeds out what, exactly?
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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2015, 02:51:07 PM »
Even if there was a gap in time between the growth in orders of the clergy, I don't think that would make the priesthood illegitimate. As the Church grew, she needed more people to help serve. It could be as simple as that. I mean, you can't run an airline with just one pilot. :)

That's an opinion, but it's not apostolic. In Christianity we are not allowed to innovate. The priests today lord over their people and exercise an authority which the apostles never gave them.
I've never had a priest lord over me about anything. I ask his opinion on things at times and he gives me counsel, but never orders.

I think the seminary or monastic experience weeds out those quite quickly.

Weeds out what, exactly?

Once the bishop has given his blessing that a candidate for the priesthood can enroll in a seminary, then that seminary becomes a place to discern that priestly vocation. Both the Bishop and the candidate are to discern. Either one can say NO at any time. If the candidate is married, his spouse can also end the matter.

So, a candidate with a big ego will not make the cut. This happened to a seminarian in the Antiochian Archdiocese. He made a boastful statement during the coffee hour after the Divine Liturgy, that once he was a priest, he would take care of certain matters. News travels fast. The Metropolitan got wind of this conversation, and promptly told the candidate that in no way was he ever going to be ordained.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 02:52:53 PM by Maria »
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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2015, 03:39:52 PM »
So, a candidate with a big ego will not make the cut.

LOL. 
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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2015, 04:35:51 PM »
I do like the idealized view of seminary though. It's kind of like an oral Normal Rockwell painting.  ;D
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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #33 on: Yesterday at 06:46:45 PM »
Why is it not contradictory that St. Peter the Apostle calls himself a "fellow presbyter/priest" in I Peter 5:1?

He's saying he was a co-presbyter, NOT a priest. Look at the Greek (sympresbyteros). There is no office of priesthood in the New Testament Church. And contrary to Father Thomas' statement, the New Testament Church survived well without it.

There is no controversy around St. Ignatius' epistles worth speaking about.

Ask Archbishop Lazar Puhalo about it.

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 06:53:28 PM »
So, a candidate with a big ego will not make the cut. This happened to a seminarian in the Antiochian Archdiocese. He made a boastful statement during the coffee hour after the Divine Liturgy, that once he was a priest, he would take care of certain matters. News travels fast. The Metropolitan got wind of this conversation, and promptly told the candidate that in no way was he ever going to be ordained.

Many, if not most of the men who are attracted to high offices in the churches, are psychopaths, and desire these positions for their own vainglory.  And then when people (men and boys) are constantly bowing before them and kissing their hands 24/7 they turn into homosexuals and narcissists. This defeats the whole purpose of Christian humility and spirituality. The profession of clergy is ranked number 8 in the world to find the most psychopaths. And the metropolitan acted this way because he couldn't tolerate the notion of someone usurping authority over him. This is classic text book psychopathy.

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Re: The Office of Priesthood
« Reply #35 on: Yesterday at 07:14:41 PM »
Thread locked pending review.
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