Author Topic: Seven Laws of Noah  (Read 313 times)

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Offline Doom

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Seven Laws of Noah
« on: July 25, 2016, 03:22:02 PM »
Hello everyone, first topic and post on this forum which I follow frequently  :)


What is an Eastern Orthodox view on Seven Laws of Noah and should Orthodox Christians follow it?

I'm asking because I've read something on this subject like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah#Acts_15

http://www.eliyah.com/galatianskjv.html


P.S. English is not my mother tongue, so forgive me if I made a mistake. Cheers  :)

Offline Svirsky

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Re: Seven Laws of Noah
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2016, 05:43:40 PM »
Hello! You speak English well.

In Orthodoxy, the Noahide Laws are not really emphasised, even though they were approved by the Council of Jerusalem (50 A.D.) and are still accepted by the Church. This is largely because the Laws are mostly natural law, especially considering how even the pagans had similar laws. So, we're still under obedience to them, but they're really common-sense morality.

Your second link is a little more interesting. He essentially says that we are still under obedience to the Law of Moses, leveraging his argument on how

Quote
the question [in Galatians 2:14-15] wasn't "Why are you over there trying to get Gentiles (Torah breakers) to live like Jews (Torah keepers)? Don't you know the law is abolished?" The real question was "How can you ever compel the Gentiles to keep the Torah (like Jews are supposed to) if you are a sinning yourself?" Both Greek texts are compatible with the latter understanding, but the Nestle-Aland text would contradict the common Christian interpretation of these verses.

Even if we accepted his translation, we still don't necessarily have to follow the Mosaic Law because Christ fulfilled the Law, consequently freeing us from having to observe it, because we could not keep it and would sin under it (The Menaion speaks of the old Law as a "curse."). St. Paul especially drives this point in other letters. As the hymns of the Church speak, Christ abolished the sacrifices by His sacrifice on the Cross, he abolished the Sabbath laws by His rest in the tomb on the Sabbath (the Holy Saturday service says "The King of the ages, having through His Passion fulfilled the plan of salvation keeps Sabbath in the tomb, granting us a new Sabbath."), and abolished circumcision by His circumcision - as the Menaion says "The transcendent Word Who became incarnate hath been circumcised, that the law might cease . . . and in accordance with the law didst fulfil the law." All of Christ's life points to the abolition of the Mosaic Law. What is Christ to these judaizers? Unless His life and His Passion point toward a new covenant (which He established at the Last Supper in Luke 22:20), then Christ's mission is no longer salvific, and He only becomes a special prophet (much like in Islam). But this plainly contradicts Scripture, and the earliest traditions of our Church confirm that we don't have to obey the old law. Hopefully this helps a little, and hopefully I didn't appear too irate - this subject just bugs me.

Offline Doom

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Re: Seven Laws of Noah
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2016, 07:42:41 AM »
Thanks for your answer Svirsky!

That's something how I thought in general, but you put it with more precision  8)

Can someone just explain it more to me what is considered under "the eating of flesh cut from a living animal"?

Offline Svirsky

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Re: Seven Laws of Noah
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2016, 11:42:24 AM »
"The eating of flesh cut from a living animal" just means eating the part of an animal while the rest of the animal is still alive. So, we aren't able to cut off the leg of a cow in order to eat it, unless we butcher the whole cow. Hopefully this helps.

Offline Doom

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Re: Seven Laws of Noah
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2016, 01:43:52 PM »
Interesting law. I'm wondering why it exist(ed) like that? Pagans were doing that?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Seven Laws of Noah
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2016, 06:55:46 PM »
Hello everyone, first topic and post on this forum which I follow frequently  :)


What is an Eastern Orthodox view on Seven Laws of Noah and should Orthodox Christians follow it?

I'm asking because I've read something on this subject like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah#Acts_15

http://www.eliyah.com/galatianskjv.html


P.S. English is not my mother tongue, so forgive me if I made a mistake. Cheers  :)

I am sure you know that Orthodox Christianity is no relation to Orthodox Judaism? I don't want to assume.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Seven Laws of Noah
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2016, 07:30:30 PM »
The 7 laws of Noah are for Gentiles
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Doom

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Re: Seven Laws of Noah
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2016, 11:20:57 AM »
Hello everyone, first topic and post on this forum which I follow frequently  :)


What is an Eastern Orthodox view on Seven Laws of Noah and should Orthodox Christians follow it?

I'm asking because I've read something on this subject like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah#Acts_15

http://www.eliyah.com/galatianskjv.html


P.S. English is not my mother tongue, so forgive me if I made a mistake. Cheers  :)

I am sure you know that Orthodox Christianity is no relation to Orthodox Judaism? I don't want to assume.

Yes I know, I was just interested in wider explanation, particularly about those verses from Acts 15.

As Svirsky said, 7 laws of Noah are approved by the Council of Jerusalem (50 A.D.) and are still accepted by the Church, but I never heard anyone mentions them ever in any kind of EO doctrine. I always assumed them as something natural and common-sense, and didn't think much about it.

Like I said previously, I was just reading something and thought to ask.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Seven Laws of Noah
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2016, 11:23:43 AM »
Hello everyone, first topic and post on this forum which I follow frequently  :)


What is an Eastern Orthodox view on Seven Laws of Noah and should Orthodox Christians follow it?

I'm asking because I've read something on this subject like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah#Acts_15

http://www.eliyah.com/galatianskjv.html


P.S. English is not my mother tongue, so forgive me if I made a mistake. Cheers  :)

I am sure you know that Orthodox Christianity is no relation to Orthodox Judaism? I don't want to assume.

Yes I know, I was just interested in wider explanation, particularly about those verses from Acts 15.

As Svirsky said, 7 laws of Noah are approved by the Council of Jerusalem (50 A.D.) and are still accepted by the Church, but I never heard anyone mentions them ever in any kind of EO doctrine. I always assumed them as something natural and common-sense, and didn't think much about it.

Like I said previously, I was just reading something and thought to ask.

I will opine a bit here..

there is nothing -wrong- with the 7 laws...

BUT

to purposely follow them?   There is no actual point to that....no doctrine of Orthodoxy that says this will help our salvation beyond what our own beliefs do.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Seven Laws of Noah
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2016, 01:17:41 PM »
As Svirsky said, 7 laws of Noah are approved by the Council of Jerusalem (50 A.D.) and are still accepted by the Church, but I never heard anyone mentions them ever in any kind of EO doctrine.

Laws of Noah was not discussed at the Council of Jerusalem, no, and it's doubtful the concept existed even in Judaism at that time. The Laws of Noah is purely a Jewish apologetic; specifically, a justification how HaShem could create billions of people that aren't Jewish. It also has the effect of freeing Jews to appreciate Gentiles -- a tiny bit of ecumenism, if you will.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Doom

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Re: Seven Laws of Noah
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2016, 04:04:54 PM »
As Svirsky said, 7 laws of Noah are approved by the Council of Jerusalem (50 A.D.) and are still accepted by the Church, but I never heard anyone mentions them ever in any kind of EO doctrine.

Laws of Noah was not discussed at the Council of Jerusalem, no, and it's doubtful the concept existed even in Judaism at that time. The Laws of Noah is purely a Jewish apologetic; specifically, a justification how HaShem could create billions of people that aren't Jewish. It also has the effect of freeing Jews to appreciate Gentiles -- a tiny bit of ecumenism, if you will.

I see that, but how you interpret this part of Acts 15: telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood?

I know it's not a big deal, but just wondering.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Seven Laws of Noah
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2016, 04:08:47 PM »
As Svirsky said, 7 laws of Noah are approved by the Council of Jerusalem (50 A.D.) and are still accepted by the Church, but I never heard anyone mentions them ever in any kind of EO doctrine.

Laws of Noah was not discussed at the Council of Jerusalem, no, and it's doubtful the concept existed even in Judaism at that time. The Laws of Noah is purely a Jewish apologetic; specifically, a justification how HaShem could create billions of people that aren't Jewish. It also has the effect of freeing Jews to appreciate Gentiles -- a tiny bit of ecumenism, if you will.

I see that, but how you interpret this part of Acts 15: telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood?

I know it's not a big deal, but just wondering.

Is it open to interpretation? Huh. It looks so practical and straightforward to me. -- The first canons, more or less, at the first universal Council of the Christian Church.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Doom

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Re: Seven Laws of Noah
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2016, 04:21:28 PM »
Just to add something:

The council decided that Gentile converts to Christianity were not obligated to keep most of the Law of Moses, including the rules concerning circumcision of males. The Council did, however, retain the prohibitions on eating blood, meat containing blood, and meat of animals not properly slain, and on fornication and idolatry, sometimes referred to as the Apostolic Decree or Jerusalem Quadrilateral.

the reminder of James and the elders here is an expression of concern that Paul was not fully teaching the decision of the Jerusalem Council's letter to Gentiles,[9] particularly in regard to non-strangled kosher meat,[10] which contrasts with Paul's advice to Gentiles in Corinth,[11] to "eat whatever is sold in the meat markets."(I Corinthians 10:25)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Jerusalem


Seems like there is still a debate on this questions. Does "Jewish Christians" still practice kosher and other Jewish laws?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Seven Laws of Noah
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2016, 04:41:57 PM »
What is a "Jewish Christian"?

Yes, I am sure if one is following secular experts' opinions on the Council, one will find much still to debate, as you put it. However, as in fact it was one of a continuous and harmonious procession of such Councils of the Church, the Church and Tradition do not, to my knowledge, have any difficulty with it.

And I guess I am going to say what I often say and recommend that you read the account for yourself -- it is quite coherent and self-explanatory, as one would expect from the lucid and God-bearing St. Luke:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+15&version=KJV
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Doom

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Re: Seven Laws of Noah
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2016, 05:21:15 PM »
What is a "Jewish Christian"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Christian_movement


I've read Acts 15, so I don't see a reason why you think I should read it again and what is so "quite coherent and self-explanatory":

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.



I, personally, do not have any kind of dilemma on this subject, but am interested in a more "academical" sense if someone has to say something on this.

Offline biro

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Re: Seven Laws of Noah
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2016, 06:09:17 PM »
Today's Messianic Jews are essentially Protestant Christians.

There's nothing they have to offer which is necessary.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Seven Laws of Noah
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2016, 09:07:11 PM »
What is a "Jewish Christian"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Christian_movement

I wasn't asking "Is there such a term?" but what, in truth, it could amount to.

I've read Acts 15, so I don't see a reason why you think I should read it again and what is so "quite coherent and self-explanatory":

I suppose it is your right to read St. Luke and find him wanting; on the other hand, it is never amiss to reread the scriptures.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy