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Author Topic: Peaches Geldof  (Read 643 times) Average Rating: 0
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2014, 04:03:10 PM »

OK, thanks for your explanation. To be frank, that practice of commemorating non-Orthodox sounds like a highly irregular innovation that shouldn't be up to the individual parish priest to decide. It basically means that he can posthumously confer membership of the Church on those who died outside Her. Is this something that your bishops have addressed to your knowledge?

I suspect, though I have no way of proving it, that the notation on the list that someone is non-Orthodox is a way to allow the priest to pray for them apart from the Proskomidi (e.g., after it's done, or during but without cutting out particles) which respects the rule but allows the people not to weird about omitting people for whom they would like to pray.  

Our commemoration slips are divided in 4 (living orthodox, no longer alive Orthodox, living non, dead non)...and during the lesson on the Proskemide Father said, he might send up a silent prayer for the non's, but they are not actually mentioned out loud or a crumb taken out of the prosphora for them.

Yes, this is how I think it is.  It would seem strange that only Orthodox would be prayed for in Church since we also pray for catechumens and just about everyone else including our non-Orthodox heads of state. 

Catechumens are different....they would also be buried as Orthodox if they died before illumination.

Heads of state...not by name.  Praying for the Office, not the person.

I disagree.  In the US they say "Again we pray for the President of the United States" and in the UK they say "Again we pray for Her Majesty the Queen".  Although their names are not offered, we are still praying for the person who holds the office.  Plus, what is the difference between praying for the office and for the person who holds the office?

In the USA there is NOT a uniform approach to this at all... in ACROD,  we pray:

" Priest: For the honorable government of our country and all civil authorities and for our armed forces, let us pray to the Lord."

No names mentioned.   http://www.acrod.org/prayercorner/textsresources/divineliturgy
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john_mo
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« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2014, 12:16:52 AM »

OK, thanks for your explanation. To be frank, that practice of commemorating non-Orthodox sounds like a highly irregular innovation that shouldn't be up to the individual parish priest to decide. It basically means that he can posthumously confer membership of the Church on those who died outside Her. Is this something that your bishops have addressed to your knowledge?

I suspect, though I have no way of proving it, that the notation on the list that someone is non-Orthodox is a way to allow the priest to pray for them apart from the Proskomidi (e.g., after it's done, or during but without cutting out particles) which respects the rule but allows the people not to weird about omitting people for whom they would like to pray.  

Our commemoration slips are divided in 4 (living orthodox, no longer alive Orthodox, living non, dead non)...and during the lesson on the Proskemide Father said, he might send up a silent prayer for the non's, but they are not actually mentioned out loud or a crumb taken out of the prosphora for them.

Yes, this is how I think it is.  It would seem strange that only Orthodox would be prayed for in Church since we also pray for catechumens and just about everyone else including our non-Orthodox heads of state. 

Catechumens are different....they would also be buried as Orthodox if they died before illumination.

Heads of state...not by name.  Praying for the Office, not the person.

I disagree.  In the US they say "Again we pray for the President of the United States" and in the UK they say "Again we pray for Her Majesty the Queen".  Although their names are not offered, we are still praying for the person who holds the office.  Plus, what is the difference between praying for the office and for the person who holds the office?

In the USA there is NOT a uniform approach to this at all... in ACROD,  we pray:

" Priest: For the honorable government of our country and all civil authorities and for our armed forces, let us pray to the Lord."

No names mentioned.   http://www.acrod.org/prayercorner/textsresources/divineliturgy

I never said that all parishes do this, just that some do. Thus it is wrong to say that the Orthodox don't pray for the non-Orthodox in their services.
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hecma925
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« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2014, 09:32:14 AM »

Who is "Peaches Geldof"?  Is there a reason why this person in particular has inspired this thread?

Ok, so I'm not the only one wondering.  Is it bad that my first thought was "Who in the hell is Peaches Geldof?"
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podkarpatska
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« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2014, 10:43:43 AM »

OK, thanks for your explanation. To be frank, that practice of commemorating non-Orthodox sounds like a highly irregular innovation that shouldn't be up to the individual parish priest to decide. It basically means that he can posthumously confer membership of the Church on those who died outside Her. Is this something that your bishops have addressed to your knowledge?

I suspect, though I have no way of proving it, that the notation on the list that someone is non-Orthodox is a way to allow the priest to pray for them apart from the Proskomidi (e.g., after it's done, or during but without cutting out particles) which respects the rule but allows the people not to weird about omitting people for whom they would like to pray.  

Our commemoration slips are divided in 4 (living orthodox, no longer alive Orthodox, living non, dead non)...and during the lesson on the Proskemide Father said, he might send up a silent prayer for the non's, but they are not actually mentioned out loud or a crumb taken out of the prosphora for them.

Yes, this is how I think it is.  It would seem strange that only Orthodox would be prayed for in Church since we also pray for catechumens and just about everyone else including our non-Orthodox heads of state. 

Catechumens are different....they would also be buried as Orthodox if they died before illumination.

Heads of state...not by name.  Praying for the Office, not the person.

I disagree.  In the US they say "Again we pray for the President of the United States" and in the UK they say "Again we pray for Her Majesty the Queen".  Although their names are not offered, we are still praying for the person who holds the office.  Plus, what is the difference between praying for the office and for the person who holds the office?

In the USA there is NOT a uniform approach to this at all... in ACROD,  we pray:

" Priest: For the honorable government of our country and all civil authorities and for our armed forces, let us pray to the Lord."

No names mentioned.   http://www.acrod.org/prayercorner/textsresources/divineliturgy

I never said that all parishes do this, just that some do. Thus it is wrong to say that the Orthodox don't pray for the non-Orthodox in their services.

But, isn't there a distinction between praying for the salvation of a named individual like the Queen, a PM or a President and generically asking that one's leaders be blessed...Do we not want God to bless our lands and to offer wisdom , patience, charity and good will to our leaders?  I can't articulate this specifically, but I think the "strict" view is an unrealistic, unnecessarily legalistic interpretation of the Canon.
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JGHunter
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« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2014, 11:04:26 AM »

Who is "Peaches Geldof"?  Is there a reason why this person in particular has inspired this thread?

Ok, so I'm not the only one wondering.  Is it bad that my first thought was "Who in the hell is Peaches Geldof?"

Don't think there's anything inherently good or bad about not knowing who someone is... Wink

But, isn't there a distinction between praying for the salvation of a named individual like the Queen, a PM or a President and generically asking that one's leaders be blessed...Do we not want God to bless our lands and to offer wisdom , patience, charity and good will to our leaders?  I can't articulate this specifically, but I think the "strict" view is an unrealistic, unnecessarily legalistic interpretation of the Canon.

I'm sure God knows what we mean if we say we're praying for the Queen or our president/prime minister/Dear Leader whether by name or by office. I agree (I think I know what you mean) I think the distinction is a false dichotomy.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 11:15:09 AM by JGHunter » Logged
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