Author Topic: Relocation and bilocation  (Read 325 times)

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Offline eddybear

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Relocation and bilocation
« on: August 18, 2015, 02:59:14 PM »
A spin-off from my thread on the dormition. I'd be interested in accounts of these phenomena, if anyone can point me in the right direction.

Offline wgw

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Re: Relocation and bilocation
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2015, 01:18:23 AM »
Ive heard of Russian starets and monastic priests who could do this, I think its part of the history of St. John of Kronstadt.

However, I have also heard of Shinto and Shugendo priests in Japan being able to do this.  So I would not base my faith on the apparent ability of a mystic to teleport himself.  Because Psalm 95:5 LXX indicates the Kami and Buddhist deities such as they are are demons, and thus if these stories are true, demons are merely moving these people through the air, which the Gospels themselves indicate is a demonic ability (recall the rather Matrix like incident of relocation, wherein our Lord, while he was being tempted, was lifted atop a high mountain and then onto the roof of the Temple in Jerusalem). 

Although mind you it would be a nice ability to have.  The Shugendo form mainly involves moving effortlessly between mountaintops in Japan however, which does not sound extremely useful.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 01:21:54 AM by wgw »
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Relocation and bilocation
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2015, 04:30:38 AM »
St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco:

Quote
In Shanghai, a voice teacher, Anna Petrovna Lushnikova, taught Vladyka the proper method of breathing and pronunciation of words, thus helping him to better his diction. At the end of each lesson Vladyka paid her 20 dollars. In 1945, during the war, she was gravely wounded and happened to be in a French hospital. On a very stormy night, feeling that she might die, Anna Petrovna began asking the nurses to call Vladyka John, who was in France, so that he would give her Communion. The nurses refused since the hospital was locked up during the night due to war-time conditions. Anna Petrovna was beside herself and kept calling upon Vladyka. Suddenly, around eleven o'clock in the evening, Vladyka appeared in the ward. Unable to believe her eyes, Anna Petrovna asked Vladyka, weather this was a dream or did he really come to her. Vladyka smiled, prayed and administered communion to her. Following this she calmed down and slept. The next morning she felt cured. No one believed Anna Petrovna that Vladyka visited her that night since the hospital was tightly secured. However, her ward neighbor substantiated the fact that she also saw Vladyka. The greatest surprise was that under Anna Petrovna's pillow was found a 20 dollar bill. Thus Vladyka left a material evidence of his visit.

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/54575.htm
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Offline wgw

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Re: Relocation and bilocation
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2015, 07:54:04 AM »
Well this should not freak us out, because our Lord did it after his resurrection, and it stands to reason theosis should grant this ability.

However, discernment is needed because pagans also claim this ability.  And the Gospels and indeed the stories of the Desert Fathers show how demons can move people through the air.  If someone showed off this ability to attract followers I would run the other way.

However I think there can be no doubt from the account regarding St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco that he was granted this gift.  By their fruits ye shall know them.
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Offline eddybear

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Re: Relocation and bilocation
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2015, 10:01:04 AM »
St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco:

Quote
In Shanghai, a voice teacher, Anna Petrovna Lushnikova, taught Vladyka the proper method of breathing and pronunciation of words, thus helping him to better his diction. At the end of each lesson Vladyka paid her 20 dollars. In 1945, during the war, she was gravely wounded and happened to be in a French hospital. On a very stormy night, feeling that she might die, Anna Petrovna began asking the nurses to call Vladyka John, who was in France, so that he would give her Communion. The nurses refused since the hospital was locked up during the night due to war-time conditions. Anna Petrovna was beside herself and kept calling upon Vladyka. Suddenly, around eleven o'clock in the evening, Vladyka appeared in the ward. Unable to believe her eyes, Anna Petrovna asked Vladyka, weather this was a dream or did he really come to her. Vladyka smiled, prayed and administered communion to her. Following this she calmed down and slept. The next morning she felt cured. No one believed Anna Petrovna that Vladyka visited her that night since the hospital was tightly secured. However, her ward neighbor substantiated the fact that she also saw Vladyka. The greatest surprise was that under Anna Petrovna's pillow was found a 20 dollar bill. Thus Vladyka left a material evidence of his visit.

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/54575.htm

Wow, not just at that bit of the article, but at St John's life which I'd not read before. So inspiring!

Offline eddybear

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Re: Relocation and bilocation
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2015, 10:01:53 AM »
Well this should not freak us out, because our Lord did it after his resurrection, and it stands to reason theosis should grant this ability.

However, discernment is needed because pagans also claim this ability.  And the Gospels and indeed the stories of the Desert Fathers show how demons can move people through the air.  If someone showed off this ability to attract followers I would run the other way.

However I think there can be no doubt from the account regarding St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco that he was granted this gift.  By their fruits ye shall know them.

That all makes a lot of sense, thank you.

Offline Perennial1

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Re: Relocation and bilocation
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2015, 09:35:33 AM »
Ive heard of Russian starets and monastic priests who could do this, I think its part of the history of St. John of Kronstadt.

However, I have also heard of Shinto and Shugendo priests in Japan being able to do this.  So I would not base my faith on the apparent ability of a mystic to teleport himself.  Because Psalm 95:5 LXX indicates the Kami and Buddhist deities such as they are are demons, and thus if these stories are true, demons are merely moving these people through the air, which the Gospels themselves indicate is a demonic ability (recall the rather Matrix like incident of relocation, wherein our Lord, while he was being tempted, was lifted atop a high mountain and then onto the roof of the Temple in Jerusalem). 

Although mind you it would be a nice ability to have.  The Shugendo form mainly involves moving effortlessly between mountaintops in Japan however, which does not sound extremely useful.

So you think Japanese priests are moved through the air by demons?

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Relocation and bilocation
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2015, 12:14:58 PM »
Presumably, anything demons can do, (unfallen) angels can do too.

Also, I'm not sure how far this thread can go without mentioning St. Tekle Haymanot.



Love the bright colors, by the way. If Orthodoxy (EO or OO) ever catches on in Mexico, I could see icons like this one becoming popular.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 12:15:42 PM by Minnesotan »
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Re: Relocation and bilocation
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2015, 07:03:27 PM »


Love the bright colors, by the way. If Orthodoxy (EO or OO) ever catches on in Mexico, I could see icons like this one becoming popular.

They already have the ethno-nationalist pride ready to go.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Relocation and bilocation
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2015, 02:15:53 PM »
Ive heard of Russian starets and monastic priests who could do this, I think its part of the history of St. John of Kronstadt.

However, I have also heard of Shinto and Shugendo priests in Japan being able to do this.  So I would not base my faith on the apparent ability of a mystic to teleport himself.  Because Psalm 95:5 LXX indicates the Kami and Buddhist deities such as they are are demons, and thus if these stories are true, demons are merely moving these people through the air, which the Gospels themselves indicate is a demonic ability (recall the rather Matrix like incident of relocation, wherein our Lord, while he was being tempted, was lifted atop a high mountain and then onto the roof of the Temple in Jerusalem). 

Although mind you it would be a nice ability to have.  The Shugendo form mainly involves moving effortlessly between mountaintops in Japan however, which does not sound extremely useful.

So you think Japanese priests are moved through the air by demons?

If the stories about Shinto or Shugendo practitioners/priests/shamans/monks/whatever are objectively true, then yes.  Alternately, if these experiences are subjective, like Muhammed's Night Journey, I would suspect a hallucination either triggered by the demonic, or more likely, by an altered state of mind brought about through "practice" of various sorts of meditation, and/or drug use.

On the other hand, piety compels me to regard as accurate and divinely facilitated even subjective accounts of bilocation among the Orthodox that are recorded in our Synaxaria/martyrologies/hagiographies.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 02:17:13 PM by wgw »
Antisemitism, racism and prejudicial nationalism should have no place in Orthodoxy.  For to paraphrase  St. Paul, there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither male nor female, slave or freeman, in the Christian Church.