Poll

What sort of fast do you keep on typical Wednesdays and Fridays?

I eat only bread, fruit, and vegetables, and I wait 'til the 9th hour
6 (10.9%)
I eat only bread, fruit, and vegetables, and I wait but can't get all the way to the 9th hour
2 (3.6%)
I eat only bread, fruit, and vegetables, but I don't necessarily wait to eat
16 (29.1%)
I avoid meat
21 (38.2%)
I choose something to avoid, maybe dessert, perhaps meat, it varies
10 (18.2%)

Total Members Voted: 55

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Offline Alxandra

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #315 on: February 25, 2015, 03:38:13 PM »
Tzimis why don't you talk with a spiritual father about your interpretations? :) That is the best way to know if they are truthful.

I don't think I should waste his time on something so trivial. My Priest is my spiritual father. Monks tend to scare me with some of there rhetoric. Not that I have anything against them. I have a much better Priest though.

I don't think it is trivial, all thoughts are very important in Orthodoxy and we must make sure they are of the Holy Spirit and of truth. Spiritual fathers are much wiser than us so I think it would be helpful to talk to him. God bless :)
Thanks for the very good advice Alxandra. I talk to my Priest all the time. He is a great guy with a profound spiritual gift. Are you a convert or were you raised Orthodox?

I was raised Orthodox. How about you?
I though you already knew I was Orthodox since I stated it above. Are you also Greek?

Wonderful, and yes I am Greek. I lived there when I was younger but now I live in Canada. I hope to go back soon, I miss the monasteries and the little old churches.


  That's great. It's nice to see a fellow Greek on here. I haven't bin on this board in a while and can remember only a hand full of Greeks. Most seem to be gone now. I see traffic has slowed down here as well. That's not a good sign. I think it has to do with people being attacked whenever they come out from lurking or want to get involved with discussion. Hostility towards people usually always nets that result.

Ohh I see, that's unfortunate. I am quite new but I have seen a lot of kindness on this website too though. I pray everyone can respect each other and discuss topics in a way that brings us closer to God and glorifies Him :)
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline wgw

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #316 on: February 25, 2015, 03:42:40 PM »
I found the Archimandrite at a local ROCOR parish much less intimidating than some of the married convert priests I've known; in general my experience with monks is that contrary to what you might fear, they're more chilled out than the married, parish priests, to use an adjectival phrase of the Hippies that I despise, but which seems apt here.

That said, your mileage may vary in this regard and I would not at all be surprised if someone has come across extremely severe monks with unrealistic expectations of the laity.  But surely in some cases that's a warning sign that the monk is in prelest.  I recall reading some exhortation from a Russian Orthodox bishop to his hieromonks in the early 20th century not to apply the same rigor regarding penances et cetera when working in a parish that they would use in the monastery, nor to hear the confessions of the laity in a mechanistic sort of way.

I've never had a problem with a monk though; the only time an Orthodox priest ever made me uncomfortable involved an encounter in the distant past with someone from the Metropolitan Agafangel synod of ROCA, but since then I've had an extremely pleasant exchange with one of their clergy who runs the St. John of Kronstadt press.  So the likelihood of coming across anyone unpleasant in either the monastic "black clergy" or the married "white clergy" is minimal, although such persons are out there, as the recent unpleasantness with that former CSB man in Alaska suggests.

So switching away from the question of there being any difference between hieromonks and married priests, which I reject (the only difference being the younger married priests I've seen tend to be busier and more stressed out taking care of both their biological and spiritual children, which is natural, and the church must love them in return as this experience is what makes married priests valuable), what monastic rhetoric troubles you Tzimis?

If you find the demands of the Philokalia and the Ladder of Divine Ascent challenging, remember firstly they're for monks, but secondly, to a large extent they only look scary.  Ascetic discipline is a bit like learning to swim or ride a bicycle or anything else scary between the ages of 5 and 7.   Your parents have to push you to do it but it's worth it.  That has been my personal experience at least.  As a layman though unless I profess monastic vows, I do believe, correct me Mor if I'm wrong, that there's only so far I'm expected to go up the Ladder of Divine Ascent; the ascetic condition of where I am later in life would depend on whether Imwas married and thus dedicated to that form of sacrifice, or decided to profess monastic vows.

By the way there are more than a few Greeks on this forum, so despair not in that regard.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 03:43:57 PM by wgw »
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #317 on: February 25, 2015, 03:57:52 PM »
Tzimis why don't you talk with a spiritual father about your interpretations? :) That is the best way to know if they are truthful.

I don't think I should waste his time on something so trivial. My Priest is my spiritual father. Monks tend to scare me with some of there rhetoric. Not that I have anything against them. I have a much better Priest though.

I don't think it is trivial, all thoughts are very important in Orthodoxy and we must make sure they are of the Holy Spirit and of truth. Spiritual fathers are much wiser than us so I think it would be helpful to talk to him. God bless :)
Thanks for the very good advice Alxandra. I talk to my Priest all the time. He is a great guy with a profound spiritual gift. Are you a convert or were you raised Orthodox?

I was raised Orthodox. How about you?
I though you already knew I was Orthodox since I stated it above. Are you also Greek?

Wonderful, and yes I am Greek. I lived there when I was younger but now I live in Canada. I hope to go back soon, I miss the monasteries and the little old churches.


  That's great. It's nice to see a fellow Greek on here. I haven't bin on this board in a while and can remember only a hand full of Greeks. Most seem to be gone now. I see traffic has slowed down here as well. That's not a good sign. I think it has to do with people being attacked whenever they come out from lurking or want to get involved with discussion. Hostility towards people usually always nets that result.

Ohh I see, that's unfortunate. I am quite new but I have seen a lot of kindness on this website too though. I pray everyone can respect each other and discuss topics in a way that brings us closer to God and glorifies Him :)

That's a wonderful outlook to have and off course your correct that most here are good. Even the one's that are confrontational. They just may need to learn some etiquette.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 04:24:13 PM by Tzimis »
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #318 on: February 25, 2015, 04:14:33 PM »
I am fasting without the fish, let's see how far i go. lol
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #319 on: February 25, 2015, 04:17:05 PM »
I found the Archimandrite at a local ROCOR parish much less intimidating than some of the married convert priests I've known; in general my experience with monks is that contrary to what you might fear, they're more chilled out than the married, parish priests, to use an adjectival phrase of the Hippies that I despise, but which seems apt here.

That said, your mileage may vary in this regard and I would not at all be surprised if someone has come across extremely severe monks with unrealistic expectations of the laity.  But surely in some cases that's a warning sign that the monk is in prelest.  I recall reading some exhortation from a Russian Orthodox bishop to his hieromonks in the early 20th century not to apply the same rigor regarding penances et cetera when working in a parish that they would use in the monastery, nor to hear the confessions of the laity in a mechanistic sort of way.

I've never had a problem with a monk though; the only time an Orthodox priest ever made me uncomfortable involved an encounter in the distant past with someone from the Metropolitan Agafangel synod of ROCA, but since then I've had an extremely pleasant exchange with one of their clergy who runs the St. John of Kronstadt press.  So the likelihood of coming across anyone unpleasant in either the monastic "black clergy" or the married "white clergy" is minimal, although such persons are out there, as the recent unpleasantness with that former CSB man in Alaska suggests.

So switching away from the question of there being any difference between hieromonks and married priests, which I reject (the only difference being the younger married priests I've seen tend to be busier and more stressed out taking care of both their biological and spiritual children, which is natural, and the church must love them in return as this experience is what makes married priests valuable), what monastic rhetoric troubles you Tzimis?

If you find the demands of the Philokalia and the Ladder of Divine Ascent challenging, remember firstly they're for monks, but secondly, to a large extent they only look scary.  Ascetic discipline is a bit like learning to swim or ride a bicycle or anything else scary between the ages of 5 and 7.   Your parents have to push you to do it but it's worth it.  That has been my personal experience at least.  As a layman though unless I profess monastic vows, I do believe, correct me Mor if I'm wrong, that there's only so far I'm expected to go up the Ladder of Divine Ascent; the ascetic condition of where I am later in life would depend on whether Imwas married and thus dedicated to that form of sacrifice, or decided to profess monastic vows.

By the way there are more than a few Greeks on this forum, so despair not in that regard.
I hope you don't believe that laypeople shouldn't try to ascend to the same spiritual plateau that you describe above as being only for monastics. I would thing that, that is the bench mark for all Christians. Since salvation is contingent on finding ones own spiritual enlightenment. Usually a trip one takes on there own with the guiding help of the holy spirit.
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

Offline wgw

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #320 on: February 25, 2015, 04:19:46 PM »
Etiquette, by the way.  But I think the moderators on this forum do an exceedingly good job.  There exist fora where the moderators enjoy being cruel and abusive for the pure heck of it and this is not one of them.  What I am curious about though is what the monks have to say that you find intimidating?

Because in,my experience, most of the gerons you'll find in Orthodoxy who can validate something like your idea regarding 1 Corinthians are monastics and not laity.  Being a parish priest gives one no time to,figure,out the trickier subjects of theology in most cases as one is rather immersed in dealing with an endless progression of births, marriages, sicknesses, deaths and feeding Christ's sheep, whereas the monk has time to sort this stuff out.
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #321 on: February 25, 2015, 04:32:05 PM »
As a layman though unless I profess monastic vows, I do believe, correct me Mor if I'm wrong, that there's only so far I'm expected to go up the Ladder of Divine Ascent; the ascetic condition of where I am later in life would depend on whether Imwas married and thus dedicated to that form of sacrifice, or decided to profess monastic vows.

I don't know how accurate this is, but in at least one way it is a distraction.  I find that conforming my life to the gospel is hard enough and that's required for everyone. 
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Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline wgw

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #322 on: February 25, 2015, 04:33:52 PM »
I hope you don't believe that laypeople shouldn't try to ascend to the same spiritual plateau that you describe above as being only for monastics. I would thing that, that is the bench mark for all Christians. Since salvation is contingent on finding ones own spiritual enlightenment. Usually a trip one takes on there own with the guiding help of the holy spirit.

I can't answer your first question, but I disagree vehemently that salvation in the Orthodox Church consists of finding ones own spiritual enlightenment.  We are saved in the Church as members of the Church, as Metropolitan Ware has stressed, as a community, "by grace through faith", a grace conferred in the Holy and Life Giving Mysteries, that enable us to advance towards Theosis, in a lifelong process.

You seem to suggest that salvation is an event, not a process, that depends on individual enlightenment, resulting from a "trip one takes on their own with the guiding of the Holy Spirit."  Please forgive me but this sounds to me very much like Buddhism and not very much like Orthodox Christianity at least as I was taught it.  Such a soteriological model seems to clash with our practice of baptizing and communing infants and children, for example.  How can a child take such a trip as you describe?  His Eminence Kallistos Ware stresses the idea of salvation as a process and not an event and as something the church engages in as a community, and not as an individual pursuit; we are saved as members of the church, and apart from the church, on our own, we are surely damned.   You do agree on this I hope?

And beyond that, Imwould like to explore with you what monastic rhetoric you find troubling.  Because I sense that something has adversely impacted your Orthodoxy and like Alexandra I urge you to go to your father of confession, but perhaps also to visit a monastery and talk to the monks, because we don't quite seem to be on the same page as it were regarding the essence of the faith.
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #323 on: February 25, 2015, 04:37:25 PM »
Etiquette, by the way. 

Thanks, corrected.

Quote
But I think the moderators on this forum do an exceedingly good job.  There exist fora where the moderators enjoy being cruel and abusive for the pure heck of it and this is not one of them.  What I am curious about though is what the monks have to say that you find intimidating?
In my travel's I haven't found any monks as enriching to hear as my own parish priest. I'm sure they exist but I have no need of one currently. Not to degrade them in any way. Remember you need permission to see a monk from your priest. He should meet most peoples spiritual needs. That is what he is there for.

Quote
Because in,my experience, most of the gerons you'll find in Orthodoxy who can validate something like your idea regarding 1 Corinthians are monastics and not laity.  Being a parish priest gives one no time to,figure,out the trickier subjects of theology in most cases as one is rather immersed in dealing with an endless progression of births, marriages, sicknesses, deaths and feeding Christ's sheep, whereas the monk has time to sort this stuff out.
I don't think that is quite correct. Our church leaders. Bishops are crowned as the apostolic successors. A bishop would be the one to ask because it has to do with his place in the hierarchy.
 
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

Offline wgw

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #324 on: February 25, 2015, 04:38:43 PM »
As a layman though unless I profess monastic vows, I do believe, correct me Mor if I'm wrong, that there's only so far I'm expected to go up the Ladder of Divine Ascent; the ascetic condition of where I am later in life would depend on whether Imwas married and thus dedicated to that form of sacrifice, or decided to profess monastic vows.

I don't know how accurate this is, but in at least one way it is a distraction.  I find that conforming my life to the gospel is hard enough and that's required for everyone.

Indeed.  Orthodoxy is a challenging and demanding faith.  If we take what Jesus said literally and read St. Paul in defense of it rather than explaining it way as metaphors in the manner of Martin Luther, which I've seen fail as a theology, Christianity is an intense religion.  But the Gospel is still Good News, maybe better; the gate actually IS narrow,,but the reward is life everlasting through deification as opposed to,the sensual paradise of Islam or Joel Osteen.  Deification not in the sense of becoming God, but sons of God through adoption, through grace what Christ is by nature, and the Gospel does explain how to do that, and it is not an "easy" path for those accustomed to the world.
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #325 on: February 25, 2015, 04:48:56 PM »
I hope you don't believe that laypeople shouldn't try to ascend to the same spiritual plateau that you describe above as being only for monastics. I would thing that, that is the bench mark for all Christians. Since salvation is contingent on finding ones own spiritual enlightenment. Usually a trip one takes on there own with the guiding help of the holy spirit.

I can't answer your first question, but I disagree vehemently that salvation in the Orthodox Church consists of finding ones own spiritual enlightenment.  We are saved in the Church as members of the Church, as Metropolitan Ware has stressed, as a community, "by grace through faith", a grace conferred in the Holy and Life Giving Mysteries, that enable us to advance towards Theosis, in a lifelong process.

You seem to suggest that salvation is an event, not a process, that depends on individual enlightenment, resulting from a "trip one takes on their own with the guiding of the Holy Spirit."  Please forgive me but this sounds to me very much like Buddhism and not very much like Orthodox Christianity at least as I was taught it.  Such a soteriological model seems to clash with our practice of baptizing and communing infants and children, for example.  How can a child take such a trip as you describe?  His Eminence Kallistos Ware stresses the idea of salvation as a process and not an event and as something the church engages in as a community, and not as an individual pursuit; we are saved as members of the church, and apart from the church, on our own, we are surely damned.   You do agree on this I hope?

And beyond that, Imwould like to explore with you what monastic rhetoric you find troubling.  Because I sense that something has adversely impacted your Orthodoxy and like Alexandra I urge you to go to your father of confession, but perhaps also to visit a monastery and talk to the monks, because we don't quite seem to be on the same page as it were regarding the essence of the faith.
  You are making it sound as if there is no substance needed other than just showing up and receiving the sacraments. The sacraments themselves save but one has to live them out spiritually to validate them. Yes it is a life long trip but there has to be a time when a person slips into sainthood and at least gets the bare minimum feeling they are doing things correct. No humble person will claim so but god knows who those people are. Even some clergy know.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 04:53:09 PM by Tzimis »
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

Offline wgw

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #326 on: February 25, 2015, 04:49:42 PM »
If your parish priest won't give you permission to go to a monastery, based on some of the dogmatically questionable things you've said, I would suggest you go to a different parish.  It's remotely possible you've landed in one of the .0001% of Orthodox parishes that have charismatic heretics as priests; they do exist; just last night in another thread I cited the example of Archpriest Sergei Bulgakov, the heretical parish priest par excellence.  I would cite his coreligionists St. Pavel Florensky as well, but Florensky despite his error received the crown of martyrdom from the Soviets, whereas in the emigration Bulgakov continued propagating the error of Sophiology for many years, which is the most gross perversion of the Orthodox faith to appear in the 20th century (I know here are many who will claim ecumenism and the new calendar are worse; if they are in fact heretical, they have been more successful, but Sophiology as a heresy represents the end-state condition of what the Church might look like according to the fears of those opposed to ecumenism if ecumenical reunification were to happen, whereas the "pan heresy of ecumenism", if it is a heresy, is merely a means of getting to Sophiology, and not an endostatic heretical condition, a deadly disease, but not death, since a church engaged in ecumenism can always reduce it's involvement or stop, as the Georgian example demonstrates).

But what is it about monastic rhetoric that is eating you?

Also regarding your comment regarding bishops,,they are monks, and the gatekeepers of Holy Tradition, there is no disputing that.  But they are also very busy.  A pious and god fearing monk will represent the Orthodox faith correctly and in conformance with the views of his bishop, as will a priest.  But again, the monk has more time on his hands to answer difficult questions.
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline wgw

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #327 on: February 25, 2015, 04:52:54 PM »
I disagree that there is a time when anyone in this life "slips into sainthood"; otherwise we would glorify the living.  Extreme holiness becomes evident but even St. Paul expresses fear that he might slip away.  St. Anthony warns us "Expect temptation until your last breath."

So I reject entirely as unorthodox the idea that there is a single moment in this life when someone becomes saved.  This is essentially the Protestant doctrine of the eternal security of the elect, Once Saved, Always Saved.  It's not Orthodox.  Did you hear that from your priest?
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline wgw

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #328 on: February 25, 2015, 04:58:10 PM »
I also emphatically reject that just showing up and taking communion is sufficient to provide salvation.  Salvation is Theosis, but this is accomplished in and through the church, by means of the Holy Mysteries, which are the principle but not the sole means by which divine grace is conferred upon us. 

But regarding Theosis, Abba Sisoes at the end of his life asked "How can I know if I have even begun to repent?"  Then. And only then, he claimed to see our Lord and died, his face aglow.  I do not think we can identify who is among the elect in this life.

Now some monasteries do grant the Great Schema not just to the dying but to advanced monks.  But this merely means the monk is particularly blessed and advanced, it does not mean they have attained Theosis or are definitely going to be saved.  Although it's a horrifying thought, and God forbid that it might be true, we cannot deny the horrible but remote possibility of some Schema,oaks burning in Hell.  Indeed, recall the encounter between St. Seraphim of Sarov and the Schemanun in Prelest.
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #329 on: February 25, 2015, 05:00:23 PM »
Tzimis why don't you talk with a spiritual father about your interpretations? :) That is the best way to know if they are truthful.
Come to think of it, this advice may actually be a good idea. The next time Tzimis goes to confession, he may wish to confess that he's teaching heresy on an Internet discussion forum.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #330 on: February 25, 2015, 05:07:08 PM »
If your parish priest won't give you permission to go to a monastery, based on some of the dogmatically questionable things you've said, I would suggest you go to a different parish.  It's remotely possible you've landed in one of the .0001% of Orthodox parishes that have charismatic heretics as priests; they do exist; just last night in another thread I cited the example of Archpriest Sergei Bulgakov, the heretical parish priest par excellence.  I would cite his coreligionists St. Pavel Florensky as well, but Florensky despite his error received the crown of martyrdom from the Soviets, whereas in the emigration Bulgakov continued propagating the error of Sophiology for many years, which is the most gross perversion of the Orthodox faith to appear in the 20th century (I know here are many who will claim ecumenism and the new calendar are worse; if they are in fact heretical, they have been more successful, but Sophiology as a heresy represents the end-state condition of what the Church might look like according to the fears of those opposed to ecumenism if ecumenical reunification were to happen, whereas the "pan heresy of ecumenism", if it is a heresy, is merely a means of getting to Sophiology, and not an endostatic heretical condition, a deadly disease, but not death, since a church engaged in ecumenism can always reduce it's involvement or stop, as the Georgian example demonstrates).


I told you my families and my spiritual needs are being met by my parish Priest. If they weren't he would know and refer me to a monk. It's up to him and not me. If he felt that I needed to be under the guidance of a monk he would has sent me off to one. It's well known in Orthodox that you need your priests blessing to see a monk. Why can't you accept that?

Quote
But what is it about monastic rhetoric that is eating you?

I told you I have nothing against them. If your priest or bishop thinks you need one that's fine. I myself am married and didn't choose the monastic life. I'm living in the world and I intend it to stay that way.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 05:11:04 PM by Tzimis »
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #331 on: February 25, 2015, 05:12:29 PM »
Alright, everyone, return back to the topic. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline Tzimis

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #332 on: February 25, 2015, 05:14:03 PM »
Tzimis why don't you talk with a spiritual father about your interpretations? :) That is the best way to know if they are truthful.
Come to think of it, this advice may actually be a good idea. The next time Tzimis goes to confession, he may wish to confess that he's teaching heresy on an Internet discussion forum.
Boy you really love that word Heresy. Was that the name of your last girlfriend or something.
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

Offline wgw

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #333 on: February 25, 2015, 05:21:27 PM »
I am fasting without the fish, let's see how far i go. lol

The first week is the time to push it, so to speak, now and in Holy Week.
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #334 on: February 25, 2015, 07:05:19 PM »
I disagree that there is a time when anyone in this life "slips into sainthood"; otherwise we would glorify the living.  Extreme holiness becomes evident but even St. Paul expresses fear that he might slip away.  St. Anthony warns us "Expect temptation until your last breath."

So I reject entirely as unorthodox the idea that there is a single moment in this life when someone becomes saved.  This is essentially the Protestant doctrine of the eternal security of the elect, Once Saved, Always Saved.  It's not Orthodox.  Did you hear that from your priest?
  I feel you are wrong on the issue of sainthood. We believe, at least I do that one can be saved in this life and know it. I don't believe that we can always keep it like Protestants do. Once attained it's work keeping it up. I'm sure many Orthodox agree that sanctification happens in this life. I'm sure that is what salvation is after all.
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #335 on: February 25, 2015, 07:51:49 PM »
Quote
I think you're having trouble accepting that 1) marriage is good, and 2) celibacy is better.

Patently wrong. Marriage is blessed by Christ Himself and the Church. Monastic tonsure is also blessed by the Church. Celibacy, in and of itself, has no sacramental church service associated with it.

So St Paul was wrong?

The Church is greater in authority than any individual.

So he was wrong?

I would like to hear LBK's clear and direct answer to this question.

I will not be waiting much longer for that answer.
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Online Mor Ephrem

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #336 on: February 27, 2015, 02:54:29 PM »
Quote
I think you're having trouble accepting that 1) marriage is good, and 2) celibacy is better.

Patently wrong. Marriage is blessed by Christ Himself and the Church. Monastic tonsure is also blessed by the Church. Celibacy, in and of itself, has no sacramental church service associated with it.

So St Paul was wrong?

The Church is greater in authority than any individual.

So he was wrong?

I would like to hear LBK's clear and direct answer to this question.

I will not be waiting much longer for that answer.

LBK,

Faith Issues is for the "discussion of issues and inquiries related to the Orthodox Christian faith".  The rules governing this section prohibit the promotion of non-Orthodox teachings and restrict the participation of non-Orthodox Christians in order to ensure that discussions in this section remain true to the purpose of this section. 

As a regular poster, you are well known for your alleged expertise in and familiarity with iconography and hymnography, and this alleged expertise presumes not merely a familiarity but a solid grounding in Orthodox theology.  Not only do a number of members regard you as an expert who knows what she's talking about, but on many occasions you describe yourself in more or less similar terms. 

Because of this, I found your response to a simple question rather curious.  When asked by a fellow poster if St Paul was wrong about a certain claim, you responded "The Church is greater in authority than any individual", and when pressed for a clear answer, both informally by that same poster and formally through my moderatorial requests, you refused to answer. 

You have posted more than twenty times since that question was posed to you, and I know for a fact you have seen these requests, but you have refused to answer. 

It was possible for you to answer by responding "No, St Paul is not wrong", or "St Paul is right, but you are not (because you misunderstand him)", or some similar answer, but you have refused to answer. 

Your silence on this matter can be interpreted as an implicit agreement that "Yes, St Paul is wrong" and your response would clear the confusion, but you have refused to answer. 

As a moderator, I have no power to make you believe in the Orthodox faith, but I do have a responsibility to ensure that this section is free from attacks on the Orthodox faith.  It is difficult for me to see how your statements are not at the very least an implicit rejection of the teaching of St Paul, and in turn, a rejection of much of the New Testament.  This is unacceptable from any poster, but especially so when it comes from those who are regarded, whether rightly or wrongly, as experts in Orthodox teaching and who claim to have such expertise. 

Because of this, and because of your steadfast refusal to answer two official moderatorial requests, and in light of your past history of violations, I am placing you on post moderation for the maximum duration currently allowed.

If you would like to appeal my decision, please PM me. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #337 on: February 27, 2015, 03:20:44 PM »
Feel free to moderate me forever too.....


Because a place that allows people who will not even STATE if they are Orthodox, and some we know not to be....to post opinions that are also not in line with the Church...and get a tiny warning...

and yet because people have a bee in their britches over some people.....the punishment is harsher...


as usual, this place does not -defend- anything but a 'feel good party for the friends and crowd'

Anyone notice how virtually NO Priests post here anymore? 


Taking my cue to go BE Orthodox rather than BS'ing about being so online.  Have a nice life folks


Denise, you appear to know very well that the only acceptable way to complain about the formal actions of a moderator is via private message or the 'Report to Moderator' function. You appear to know very well that public complaint about specific moderatorial actions is forbidden on this forum. You have a medium for airing your complaints; this thread isn't it.

For using this thread to complain about Mor's action above, you are now receiving the maximum warning I can give you for today. If you think this warning wrong, please appeal it to me via private message and ONLY via private message. Further argument with the moderators on this thread will not be tolerated.

- PeterTheAleut
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 08:03:17 PM by PeterTheAleut »

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #338 on: March 30, 2015, 06:47:56 PM »
Here is a great visual of Byzantine times for prayer and fasting.



A summary of this thread:

Ask your priest.

As many people are sick, they should not be fasting anyway. Again, ask your priest.

As many inquirers and catechumen have not entered yet into the life of prayer in the church, and as prayer and a repentant heart go hand-in-hand with fasting, these newbies should ask their priest.

Fasting can be abused by those who are under delusion, this is why it is so imperative to ASK ONE"S PRIEST.
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός
Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός
Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος
ἐλέησον ἡμας

Offline Marc1152

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #339 on: Yesterday at 02:08:49 PM »
I am amazed at how many people say they only stay away from meat. Is that even considered fasting? Why pick and choose what you want, how prideful and self-willed is that! Follow what the Church tells you to follow.

*grumble grumble*

So what does your fasting regimen look like?  I don't recall you volunteering that information in this thread...

I avoid eating dog and koala bears every 6th Tuesday of the month

No, be serious.  You are the one judging others' fasting disciplines for being prideful and self-willed, so obviously you must be a humble and obedient faster.  Edify us that we may learn from your good example.

Do you ever post anything except snarky aggressive remarks?
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Timon

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #340 on: Yesterday at 02:14:50 PM »
While I do ok with meat and dairy, I still enjoy an adult beverage practically every day after work. I also use plenty of oil when cooking. Im going to try and tighten up on that during Holy Week...

Is it just me, or does anyone else see this unofficial hierarchy of things we fast from?

Meat - most important
Dairy - very important
Fish - ehhh... its better than eating steak if you have the option
Wine/Oil - do the best you can
Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

— Chrysostom

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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #341 on: Yesterday at 02:53:27 PM »
While I do ok with meat and dairy, I still enjoy an adult beverage practically every day after work. I also use plenty of oil when cooking. Im going to try and tighten up on that during Holy Week...

Is it just me, or does anyone else see this unofficial hierarchy of things we fast from?

Meat - most important
Dairy - very important
Fish - ehhh... its better than eating steak if you have the option
Wine/Oil - do the best you can

That's basically it, yes. When I was staying with my family during Nativity Lent my spiritual father said I should just abstain from meat and not worry about the rest. Of course, even refusing to eat meat is kind of a big deal so I admit I wasn't too good at that, either.

What I find really fascinating is that fish eggs are allowed on days when fish is forbidden; I guess it's analogous to Cheesefare, when you can eat eggs but not chicken.

Offline Timon

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #342 on: Yesterday at 03:04:54 PM »
While I do ok with meat and dairy, I still enjoy an adult beverage practically every day after work. I also use plenty of oil when cooking. Im going to try and tighten up on that during Holy Week...

Is it just me, or does anyone else see this unofficial hierarchy of things we fast from?

Meat - most important
Dairy - very important
Fish - ehhh... its better than eating steak if you have the option
Wine/Oil - do the best you can

That's basically it, yes. When I was staying with my family during Nativity Lent my spiritual father said I should just abstain from meat and not worry about the rest. Of course, even refusing to eat meat is kind of a big deal so I admit I wasn't too good at that, either.

What I find really fascinating is that fish eggs are allowed on days when fish is forbidden; I guess it's analogous to Cheesefare, when you can eat eggs but not chicken.

I would never discourage you from going against your spiritual father's advice, but Ive always understood that its better to just eat whatever is prepared rather than cause any issues with family.

Recently, my baptist in-laws came to visit and they wanted to go to this local pizza place in our neighborhood. They also have soups and salads that are fast friendly for the most part, so my wife and I were going to choose from those options. It was clear rather quickly that it went against their plans to just order a couple of pizzas (they were paying) and then it almost led to an argument over what type of pizza to get that was most "fast friendly" since everyone wanted lots of meat and we preferred veggie if we had to eat pizza.

As the tension grew, I explained that we were fine to eat whatever they ordered since fasting isnt really about the food anyways. So we ate it. Sometimes you just have to keep the peace! (or in this case, "piece" of pizza. :) lame joke...)

They know we have a pretty strict Lenten fast, but we have never requested they prepare anything separate for us at family gatherings as we dont want this to become their burden. Over time, hopefully theyll come to understand the faith more, and maybe even keep the fast in mind when we visit!

Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

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Offline Bob2

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #343 on: Yesterday at 03:06:33 PM »

What I find really fascinating is that fish eggs are allowed on days when fish is forbidden; I guess it's analogous to Cheesefare, when you can eat eggs but not chicken.

As far as I'm aware the only day that is not a fish days allows caviar is Lazarus Saturday. Whish makes some sense given its link to Palm Sunday and its foreshadowing of Christ's resurrection.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #344 on: Yesterday at 03:08:49 PM »

What I find really fascinating is that fish eggs are allowed on days when fish is forbidden; I guess it's analogous to Cheesefare, when you can eat eggs but not chicken.

As far as I'm aware the only day that is not a fish days allows caviar is Lazarus Saturday. Whish makes some sense given its link to Palm Sunday and its foreshadowing of Christ's resurrection.

I think that's a Russian thing. Greeks treat fish roe on the same level as shellfish.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #345 on: Yesterday at 03:12:34 PM »
While I do ok with meat and dairy, I still enjoy an adult beverage practically every day after work. I also use plenty of oil when cooking. Im going to try and tighten up on that during Holy Week...

Is it just me, or does anyone else see this unofficial hierarchy of things we fast from?

Meat - most important
Dairy - very important
Fish - ehhh... its better than eating steak if you have the option
Wine/Oil - do the best you can

That's basically it, yes. When I was staying with my family during Nativity Lent my spiritual father said I should just abstain from meat and not worry about the rest. Of course, even refusing to eat meat is kind of a big deal so I admit I wasn't too good at that, either.

What I find really fascinating is that fish eggs are allowed on days when fish is forbidden; I guess it's analogous to Cheesefare, when you can eat eggs but not chicken.

I would never discourage you from going against your spiritual father's advice, but Ive always understood that its better to just eat whatever is prepared rather than cause any issues with family.

Recently, my baptist in-laws came to visit and they wanted to go to this local pizza place in our neighborhood. They also have soups and salads that are fast friendly for the most part, so my wife and I were going to choose from those options. It was clear rather quickly that it went against their plans to just order a couple of pizzas (they were paying) and then it almost led to an argument over what type of pizza to get that was most "fast friendly" since everyone wanted lots of meat and we preferred veggie if we had to eat pizza.

As the tension grew, I explained that we were fine to eat whatever they ordered since fasting isnt really about the food anyways. So we ate it. Sometimes you just have to keep the peace! (or in this case, "piece" of pizza. :) lame joke...)

They know we have a pretty strict Lenten fast, but we have never requested they prepare anything separate for us at family gatherings as we dont want this to become their burden. Over time, hopefully theyll come to understand the faith more, and maybe even keep the fast in mind when we visit!

Yeah, it was a bit awkward. To be fair, he also said "don't make a big deal out of it", which is why I ended up just eating the meat I was served. The trouble is that it's not just about having them prepare extra food, since I was completely willing to prepare my own fasting food; it's about not sharing in the common meal and setting yourself apart that people react negatively to. I don't think there's a good all-encompassing solution to the problem, but I sympathize most with the idea that you should not eat anything different from those you're staying with, even if it means breaking the fast.

A priest I knew took this advice, however, and broke the fast when visiting his non-Orthodox relatives during Nativity Lent, and got into big trouble when his bishop found out. Apparently priests are held to different standards (who knew?).

Offline Maria

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #346 on: Yesterday at 03:41:55 PM »
While I do ok with meat and dairy, I still enjoy an adult beverage practically every day after work. I also use plenty of oil when cooking. Im going to try and tighten up on that during Holy Week...

Is it just me, or does anyone else see this unofficial hierarchy of things we fast from?

Meat - most important
Dairy - very important
Fish - ehhh... its better than eating steak if you have the option
Wine/Oil - do the best you can

That's basically it, yes. When I was staying with my family during Nativity Lent my spiritual father said I should just abstain from meat and not worry about the rest. Of course, even refusing to eat meat is kind of a big deal so I admit I wasn't too good at that, either.

What I find really fascinating is that fish eggs are allowed on days when fish is forbidden; I guess it's analogous to Cheesefare, when you can eat eggs but not chicken.

I would never discourage you from going against your spiritual father's advice, but Ive always understood that its better to just eat whatever is prepared rather than cause any issues with family.

Recently, my baptist in-laws came to visit and they wanted to go to this local pizza place in our neighborhood. They also have soups and salads that are fast friendly for the most part, so my wife and I were going to choose from those options. It was clear rather quickly that it went against their plans to just order a couple of pizzas (they were paying) and then it almost led to an argument over what type of pizza to get that was most "fast friendly" since everyone wanted lots of meat and we preferred veggie if we had to eat pizza.

As the tension grew, I explained that we were fine to eat whatever they ordered since fasting isnt really about the food anyways. So we ate it. Sometimes you just have to keep the peace! (or in this case, "piece" of pizza. :) lame joke...)

They know we have a pretty strict Lenten fast, but we have never requested they prepare anything separate for us at family gatherings as we dont want this to become their burden. Over time, hopefully theyll come to understand the faith more, and maybe even keep the fast in mind when we visit!

Good point. I hope they noticed that you said the food is not as important as the spirit behind the fast: charity.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: do you keep the Wednesday and Friday fast?
« Reply #347 on: Yesterday at 05:14:30 PM »
I am amazed at how many people say they only stay away from meat. Is that even considered fasting? Why pick and choose what you want, how prideful and self-willed is that! Follow what the Church tells you to follow.

*grumble grumble*

So what does your fasting regimen look like?  I don't recall you volunteering that information in this thread...

I avoid eating dog and koala bears every 6th Tuesday of the month

No, be serious.  You are the one judging others' fasting disciplines for being prideful and self-willed, so obviously you must be a humble and obedient faster.  Edify us that we may learn from your good example.

Do you ever post anything except snarky aggressive remarks?
Marc, whatever conflict you may be having with another poster on the Politics board needs to stay on the Politics board. Don't bring it here.
Not all who wander are lost.