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Author Topic: Churches That Use the Name Orthodox But Are Actually Far From It  (Read 2413 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 18, 2010, 01:52:21 PM »

CONTEXT NOTE:  The following thread started here as an apparent misunderstanding of the question in the OP:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29369.0.html  -PtA


Perhaps someone was talking about churches that use the name Orthodox but are actually far from it. Some Protestant groups will try to make themselves look more traditional by calling their churches Orthodox.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2010, 03:19:47 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2010, 02:24:48 PM »

Perhaps someone was talking about churches that use the name Orthodox but are actually far from it. Some Protestant groups will try to make themselves look more traditional by calling their churches Orthodox.

A good example is the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.  It is really a Presbyterian Church in doctrine & worship.
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2010, 02:29:36 PM »

Another example is the African Orthodox Church.
http://www.theafricanorthodoxchurchofafrica.com/
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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2010, 02:33:13 PM »

Another example is the African Orthodox Church.
http://www.theafricanorthodoxchurchofafrica.com/

There are tons of them here:

http://aggreen.net/other_orthodox/other.html
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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2010, 08:29:42 AM »

One thing though I think the Protestant groups do not mean to confuse anyone but are stressing an "orthodox" belief with a small "o" except when listing their name designation.On the other hand, there are fringe groups that try to claim to be the Orthodox church claiming apostolic succession, being a true deposit of the sacraments, etc.
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« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2010, 07:18:15 PM »

I think the Milan Synod fits the description of a group that calls itself Orthodox but is far from it.
http://www.milansynodusa.org/
This is my own personal opinion from reading of their supposed apostolic succession, former bishops, founder, and ecumenism.
I don't mean to spread hatred or negativity towards its members or former members. Many of the texts and clergy have been helpful and interesting. I mean this especially for some of the western rite monks and clergy.
However I think when you look particularly at who founded this synod and who are its former bishops, several of whom have left to join EP, OCA, and ROCOR, I don't think too many, Old Believers, Old Calendarist and "world Orthodox" all included, would state this group is canonical.
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« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2010, 07:29:38 PM »

I'm wondering how we should relate to loved ones who are in non-canonical Orthodox Churches? Any advice?
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« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2010, 09:36:20 PM »

One thing though I think the Protestant groups do not mean to confuse anyone but are stressing an "orthodox" belief with a small "o" except when listing their name designation.On the other hand, there are fringe groups that try to claim to be the Orthodox church claiming apostolic succession, being a true deposit of the sacraments, etc.

Good point.

I think the Milan Synod fits the description of a group that calls itself Orthodox but is far from it.
http://www.milansynodusa.org/
This is my own personal opinion from reading of their supposed apostolic succession, former bishops, founder, and ecumenism.
I don't mean to spread hatred or negativity towards its members or former members. Many of the texts and clergy have been helpful and interesting. I mean this especially for some of the western rite monks and clergy.
However I think when you look particularly at who founded this synod and who are its former bishops, several of whom have left to join EP, OCA, and ROCOR, I don't think too many, Old Believers, Old Calendarist and "world Orthodox" all included, would state this group is canonical.

I’ve honestly never heard of them before, but after reading over their history through the link you’ve provided, I’d say your assessment seems to be a correct one.  Are they Orthodox theologically speaking, or do they deviate from any of the teachings of the Church?  It seems to me that they’re just anti-ecumenists with a dodgy Apostolic succession and a fondness for Western rite liturgies.

I'm wondering how we should relate to loved ones who are in non-canonical Orthodox Churches? Any advice?

I’d say love them and pray for them, and encourage them to come home to Orthodoxy.

As far the groups themselves, I’m thinking that if they’re Orthodox in theology and practice, or close to it, we should dialogue with them as an ecclesial body and do what we can to bring them into the canonical Church en toto.  However, if they’re way out there and have no other connection to Orthodoxy other than that they’ve chosen to slap the word “Orthodox” on their church (or storefront, or house, as the case may be) like the African Orthodox Church of St. John Coltraine (lol!), the white supremacist so-called German Orthodox Church (the poor Germans always have to have their name dragged through the mud by these kinda creeps), that so-called Axios group, or one of those groups that tries to blend Orthodoxy with Pentecostalism in so-called “convergence worship” like those so-called Imago Dei guys, then we should give them a wide berth, and perhaps, should the opportunity present itself, deal with individuals from these groups who may want to completely abandon their former beliefs and enter the Truth of Orthodoxy, but never give any of the groups themselves the chance to claim any semblance of legitimacy by entering into formal negotiations with the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2010, 09:56:38 PM »

Quote
I’d say love them and pray for them, and encourage them to come home to Orthodoxy.

As far the groups themselves, I’m thinking that if they’re Orthodox in theology and practice, or close to it, we should dialogue with them as an ecclesial body and do what we can to bring them into the canonical Church en toto.  However, if they’re way out there and have no other connection to Orthodoxy other than that they’ve chosen to slap the word “Orthodox” on their church (or storefront, or house, as the case may be) like the African Orthodox Church of St. John Coltraine (lol!), the white supremacist so-called German Orthodox Church (the poor Germans always have to have their name dragged through the mud by these kinda creeps), that so-called Axios group, or one of those groups that tries to blend Orthodoxy with Pentecostalism in so-called “convergence worship” like those so-called Imago Dei guys, then we should give them a wide berth, and perhaps, should the opportunity present itself, deal with individuals from these groups who may want to completely abandon their former beliefs and enter the Truth of Orthodoxy, but never give any of the groups themselves the chance to claim any semblance of legitimacy by entering into formal negotiations with the Orthodox Church.

Great advice, thank you so much!
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 09:57:11 PM by Rosehip » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2010, 10:12:55 PM »

Quote
I’d say love them and pray for them, and encourage them to come home to Orthodoxy.

As far the groups themselves, I’m thinking that if they’re Orthodox in theology and practice, or close to it, we should dialogue with them as an ecclesial body and do what we can to bring them into the canonical Church en toto.  However, if they’re way out there and have no other connection to Orthodoxy other than that they’ve chosen to slap the word “Orthodox” on their church (or storefront, or house, as the case may be) like the African Orthodox Church of St. John Coltraine (lol!), the white supremacist so-called German Orthodox Church (the poor Germans always have to have their name dragged through the mud by these kinda creeps), that so-called Axios group, or one of those groups that tries to blend Orthodoxy with Pentecostalism in so-called “convergence worship” like those so-called Imago Dei guys, then we should give them a wide berth, and perhaps, should the opportunity present itself, deal with individuals from these groups who may want to completely abandon their former beliefs and enter the Truth of Orthodoxy, but never give any of the groups themselves the chance to claim any semblance of legitimacy by entering into formal negotiations with the Orthodox Church.

Great advice, thank you so much!


My pleasure.  Please remember me in your prayers.  Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2010, 06:34:43 AM »

that so-called Axios group,

Axios isn't an independent ecclesiastical organization any more than Integrity is with respect to ECUSA. Most, if not all, of its members are part of canonical EO churches.
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« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2011, 06:50:36 PM »

Another example is the African Orthodox Church.
http://www.theafricanorthodoxchurchofafrica.com/

I did not see anything wrong with these guys. Care to explain?
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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2011, 06:54:56 PM »

I did not see anything wrong with these guys. Care to explain?

Their definition of apostolic succession.
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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2011, 07:14:09 PM »

Does anyone happen to have a link to the first thread ever posted on OC Net, I think I'd like to revive it...
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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2011, 08:04:26 PM »

I think the Milan Synod fits the description of a group that calls itself Orthodox but is far from it.
http://www.milansynodusa.org/
This is my own personal opinion from reading of their supposed apostolic succession, former bishops, founder, and ecumenism.
I don't mean to spread hatred or negativity towards its members or former members. Many of the texts and clergy have been helpful and interesting. I mean this especially for some of the western rite monks and clergy.
However I think when you look particularly at who founded this synod and who are its former bishops, several of whom have left to join EP, OCA, and ROCOR, I don't think too many, Old Believers, Old Calendarist and "world Orthodox" all included, would state this group is canonical.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Milan Synod have a very old monastery on Mt. Athos?  Not disagreeing entirely with what you are saying though.  They do "look Orthodox" though. 

Do you feel the same way about the Synod in Resistance or Hotca?

Milan seems a bit "off" to me, but the Synod in Resistance and Hotca seem very legit (not even in the same category to me).  Unless of course, somebody knows something I don't.   I believe (again correct if I'm wrong) that the Synod in Resistance and Hotca are both recognized by world Orthodoxy...   Anyhow, I don't entirely know.
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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2011, 08:09:33 PM »

Yes, I agree that HOTCA is very legit. Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2011, 08:12:33 PM »



I think the Milan Synod fits the description of a group that calls itself Orthodox but is far from it.


The Milan Synod is a small and not unsympathetic Church which has tried to hew to traditional Orthodoxy.  

About 10 years ago it made solid efforts to come into communion with 7 of the ancient Patriarchates ** but negotiations fell through in each case.  The fact that the Patriarchates were willing to seriously consider giving Milan a home speaks volumes in itself as to how they assessed the quality of Milan's Orthodoxy.

There have been unfortunate developments in the American wing over the last few years with the influx of a group of coverts who are very isolationist and very internet savvy and very loud and aggressive.  Sadly they have pulled the American Archbishop John LoBue into their isolationist way of thinking and this American segment may indeed be seen as barely hanging on to the fringes of Orthodoxy.

But again, it speaks volumes that in the last year or so, 7 of the priests from American Milan have been received into the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and there are two more in the pipeline.  These priests are not re-ordained but received by Metropolitan Hilarion by cheirothesia.

-------------------------
** A description of these attempts at union is at message 20 at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,4577.msg518877.html#msg518877
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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2011, 08:18:22 PM »

Yes, I agree that HOTCA is very legit. Smiley

The Church of America (HOTCA) sees canonical Orthodoxy as being deprived of all the holy Sacraments.  That means that none of us are baptized and none of our priests are priests and what we receive and believe to be Holy Communion is only mushy bread and wine.   Obviously this is an extreme position which cuts it off from all the ancient Patriarchies, Autocephalies, etc.

Jonathan Gress is an articulate spokesman for HOTCA and he has written a lot on this issue on the Forum.
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« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2011, 08:21:21 PM »

Another example is the African Orthodox Church.
http://www.theafricanorthodoxchurchofafrica.com/

I did not see anything wrong with these guys. Care to explain?

They're part of the Society of Redundancy Society, for one thing.
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« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2011, 08:31:28 PM »

Yes, I agree that HOTCA is very legit. Smiley

The Church of America (HOTCA) sees canonical Orthodoxy as being deprived of all the holy Sacraments.  That means that none of us are baptized and none of our priests are priests and what we receive and believe to be Holy Communion is only mushy bread and wine.   Obviously this is an extreme position which cuts it off from all the ancient Patriarchies, Autocephalies, etc.

Jonathan Gress is an articulate spokesman for HOTCA and he has written a lot on this issue on the Forum.

Well from everything I have researched, HOTCA has full succession, full grace, and adheres to ancient Orthodox traditions - beards, old calendar...   As far as I can tell, so does the Synod in Resistance.

The question I have is does the majority of world Orthodoxy recognize HOTCA (Holy Metropolis of the Genuine Greek Orthodox Church in America) and the Synod in Resistance as legitimate - whether or not HOTCA or the Synod in Resistance would recognize them?

Thanks
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« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2011, 08:33:18 PM »

Also let me chime in with the Dormition Skete under Bishop Gregory & Bishop John in Colorado.  Does world Orthodoxy recognize them? 
Thanks
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« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2011, 08:48:07 PM »

http://www.concentric.net/~cosmas/indcath.htm



As we discussed in the previous page, Christians in the eastern Orthodox tradition also like to speak of themselves as being part of the Catholic, or universal, church of Christ. In order to distinguish between the two ancient Catholic traditions Melton (1991) uses the terms 'western liturgical tradition' and 'eastern liturgical tradition' to refer to the sacramental religious traditions that evolved in the West and East, respectively.

Edited for the links posting policy - MK.
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« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2011, 09:28:32 PM »

Yes, I agree that HOTCA is very legit. Smiley

The Church of America (HOTCA) sees canonical Orthodoxy as being deprived of all the holy Sacraments.  That means that none of us are baptized and none of our priests are priests and what we receive and believe to be Holy Communion is only mushy bread and wine.   Obviously this is an extreme position which cuts it off from all the ancient Patriarchies, Autocephalies, etc.

Jonathan Gress is an articulate spokesman for HOTCA and he has written a lot on this issue on the Forum.

Well from everything I have researched, HOTCA has full succession, full grace, and adheres to ancient Orthodox traditions - beards, old calendar...   As far as I can tell, so does the Synod in Resistance.

The question I have is does the majority of world Orthodoxy recognize HOTCA (Holy Metropolis of the Genuine Greek Orthodox Church in America) and the Synod in Resistance as legitimate - whether or not HOTCA or the Synod in Resistance would recognize them?

Thanks

The determination as to whether it has apostolic succession and mysteriological grace belongs in the first instance to the canonical Church from which it went into schism or, if it is a schism of a schism, to the originating canonical Church.  It is the bishops of that Church which exercise the powers of binding and loosing.    In many instances Churches will act very leniently with breakaway groups, praying that charity and leniency will bring them back to the Church.   But if we read Jonathan' Gress' messages on the Forum I think he says that they were deprived of grace very early by the Church of Greece?

There can be only one Church of Christ.   As Archpriest Michael Protopopov notes in his small monograph on +Tikhon Pasechnik and the RTOC:

"If one’s actions take a person outside the Church then that person is outside the Church. There is no alternative. There is no shopping list of churches. There is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."

http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/RTOC.htm
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« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2011, 10:25:15 PM »

Does anyone happen to have a link to the first thread ever posted on OC Net, I think I'd like to revive it...
LOL
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« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2011, 10:41:51 PM »

Does anyone happen to have a link to the first thread ever posted on OC Net, I think I'd like to revive it...
I've found these 3:
3rd oldest:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=6
2nd oldest:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10.0.html
oldest (by 1 hr and 7 minutes):
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,7.0.html

bear in mind that OCnet has gone through board remakes and dealt with site crashes and what not, so the original posts from May of 2002 may be languishing in cyberspace.
A look at Oct 2002 via waybackmachine: http://web.archive.org/web/20021209160304/http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php
« Last Edit: June 04, 2011, 10:49:26 PM by Tallitot » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2011, 09:13:33 AM »

The question I have is does the majority of world Orthodoxy recognize HOTCA (Holy Metropolis of the Genuine Greek Orthodox Church in America) and the Synod in Resistance as legitimate - whether or not HOTCA or the Synod in Resistance would recognize them?
Thanks

No one of world Orthodoxy recognises them as legitimate. There are 15 (14) autocephalous Churches in World Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2011, 12:18:10 PM »

Also let me chime in with the Dormition Skete under Bishop Gregory & Bishop John in Colorado.  Does world Orthodoxy recognize them? 
Thanks

I am tempted to ask "Recognize them as what?"  since the place does exist and all.  But I'll be good.  Wink  DS and Gregory of Colorado does not "recognize" "World" EO as being Orthodox and as far as I know those Churches don't have any links with/to him.

Ebor
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« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2011, 12:20:00 PM »

Does anyone happen to have a link to the first thread ever posted on OC Net, I think I'd like to revive it...
I've found these 3:
3rd oldest:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=6
2nd oldest:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10.0.html
oldest (by 1 hr and 7 minutes):
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,7.0.html

bear in mind that OCnet has gone through board remakes and dealt with site crashes and what not, so the original posts from May of 2002 may be languishing in cyberspace.
A look at Oct 2002 via waybackmachine: http://web.archive.org/web/20021209160304/http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php

Those bring back some memories like the "llama" tag.   Wink
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« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2011, 12:21:04 PM »

dear sir  i  have the pleasure of being good friends with  fr john lobue and i can say with out  any hesitation  their synod is a sham their headquarters is a run down  hunter lodge located on a mountain in west milford  they  live like sqautters  junk  and garbage all over the so called  monastery land  two  trailers one which houses a nun who  in the summer lives in the trailer the same   nun  who in the winter lives inside the lodge on the living room counch because the trailer has no heat nuns do not live inside the same living area of a  monastery with monks this is not orthodox  and they have a trailer filled with junk   they have a half finished church with no windows that was built onto the existing lodge they worship in a make shift  chapel in the cellar the whole inside of the monastery  is cluttered  with junk and garbage and smells of cat waste  they have  6 or so cats and 3 priests other then this fr john lobue  living thier other then this property and thier claims of owning  a chapel in woodstock ny  the milan synod in america   are basicaly  home churches  thier is no structure  to them  the only one that seemed to have  structure and seemed to  be more organized as a diocese was when they had  bishop hillarion of austin tx at least they had a fuctional parish on thier property and made efforts to set up structured parish not home parishes with some fly by night  priests  who one minute were in their  synod and the next  suspened or left and and a  drunk of a priest who lived in west milford monastery  he  left thier church and went back to canada and they have  a current priest who refuses to attend service in thier  church because he does not like the way fr  lobue conducts the services on the altar  also fr   john lobue  has a  tv in his living quaters at the  monastery   after seeing the total unorganization and seeing and hearing  things inside the group i was totaly turned off by this and i would  question  fr lobur being a real clergy if i never saw and heard  what i did in west milford   bishop hillarion who i suspect is no longer part of this synod just as the priest in austin under hillarion  who now is part of the rocor church   but this bishop john lobue  with natty   dreds  locks and  dirty tatered  cassocks  and his claim he was a roman catholic clergy who left the catholic seminary prior to ordaination  so who is  his ordaination with then  they  seem like they are playing church in the west milford diocese and their insisting on using a western liturgy not verified  by any of the cannonical orthodox  churches makes their claims more to question  fr lobue who now is metropolitan  claims they are a self governing dioceses of the milan synod i would warn anyone to avoid and stay clear of this group  they were at time aligned with the so called  patriarch of kiev filleret prior to being under the ukrianian orthodox church of kiev the church use to go by the name of the synod of orthodox bishops of the western rite prior to that they were under a bishop mccormick  who died in 1977 and were under  to bishop  william brothers  founder of the old catholic church  in america in the 1930's 1940's a old catholic church with some strange doctrines   who for a few years aligned itself with the moscow patraich in the 1960's before bishop brothers pulled out of commuion with them over brothers  not liking his being demoted  to a miterd priest from bishop when he entered into commuion with the patriarch of moscow dont get me wrong fr lobue is a nice guy but the church is a false church
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 12:41:49 PM by josephgodleski1966 » Logged
tuesdayschild
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« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2011, 12:28:08 PM »

dear sir  i  have the pleasure of being good friends with  fr john lobue and i can say with out  any hesitation  their synod is a sham ... dont get me wrong fr lobue is a nice guy but the church is a false church

With friends like this...

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« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2011, 12:38:39 PM »

dear sir  i  have the pleasure of being good friends with  fr john lobue and i can say with out  any hesitation  their synod is a sham ... dont get me wrong fr lobue is a nice guy but the church is a false church

With friends like this...



Wow, take a breath.   Wink Do we give prizes for run on sentences?
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« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2011, 02:41:43 PM »

dear sir  i  have the pleasure of being...

Wow.  That's five minutes of my life I'll never get back.  I think I have a headache from trying to read that.

Honestly though, presuming that English is a second language for the author, and considering I probably couldn't type anything coherent in another language at all, I'll give kudos where they are due.  But, please try to use some punctuation.  It would prevent further pain.   Wink
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« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2011, 03:16:14 PM »

Some great belly laughs here guys, thanks.

White space is your friend.
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« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2014, 11:17:17 AM »

I did not see anything wrong with these guys. Care to explain?

Their definition of apostolic succession.

Do you mean the fact that they are part of the so-called "Vilatte Line"? Because there are several other groups with Villattian origins that have been received into communion with the EO and OO, if I'm not mistaken. However, Vilatte himself is considered to have been a vagante.

Wikipedia has an article about them. They were founded during the Harlem Renaissance by a former Episcopalian rector who had been part of Marcus Garvey's organization.

The fact that they have a church dedicated to "St. John Will-I-Am Coltrane", though, indicates that they probably aren't as Orthodox as their name implies. Especially given what their worship is like.
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« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2014, 11:18:33 AM »

Don't forget the "Ancient Russian Ynglist Church of the Orthodox Old Believers", which is actually a neo-pagan organization that has no ties either to mainstream Orthodoxy or to the Old Believers.
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« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2014, 12:20:18 PM »

Cool name, though.
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