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Author Topic: Did St. John Chrysostom try a priest for begetting children?  (Read 2100 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« on: February 28, 2009, 01:57:36 AM »

Recently on another forum  police Roll Eyes police I saw a reference again to a supposed trial by St. John Chrysostom, of a priest who had children after his ordination.  The claim is that this supports the Vatican's contention that although married men were ordained, they never had relations with their wives.  Anyone have any info on this "trial?"
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« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2009, 02:18:33 AM »

Recently on another forum  police Roll Eyes police I saw a reference again to a supposed trial by St. John Chrysostom, of a priest who had children after his ordination.  The claim is that this supports the Vatican's contention that although married men were ordained, they never had relations with their wives.  Anyone have any info on this "trial?"

I've seen some claims of this by members of the Latin Church but it certainly isn't the official position of the Catholic Church.

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« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2009, 07:43:11 AM »

Recently on another forum  police Roll Eyes police I saw a reference again to a supposed trial by St. John Chrysostom, of a priest who had children after his ordination.  The claim is that this supports the Vatican's contention that although married men were ordained, they never had relations with their wives.  Anyone have any info on this "trial?"

I'd love to see said reference; I wonder if it's either a forgery or a statement out of context (e.g. the trial was for having a child with someone other than their wife out of wedlock).
« Last Edit: February 28, 2009, 07:43:45 AM by cleveland » Logged

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ialmisry
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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2009, 09:37:40 AM »

Recently on another forum  police Roll Eyes police I saw a reference again to a supposed trial by St. John Chrysostom, of a priest who had children after his ordination.  The claim is that this supports the Vatican's contention that although married men were ordained, they never had relations with their wives.  Anyone have any info on this "trial?"

I'd love to see said reference; I wonder if it's either a forgery or a statement out of context (e.g. the trial was for having a child with someone other than their wife out of wedlock).

Yes, that is exactly what I am expecting, which is probably why the citation isn't forthcoming.   I'm banned from CAF from asking (I asked too many embarassing questions, and gave too many uncomfortable answers).

I've seen some claims of this by members of the Latin Church but it certainly isn't the official position of the Catholic Church.

Fr. Deacon Lance

What isn't.

This seems to be increasingly a point made in discussions on this issue: that the Orthodox are the innovators by letting the priests remain with their wives, not the Vatican for mandating celibacy.  Definitely a problem, so it solved by saying that the priests remained "in perfect continence."  (btw, there are some Orthodox who like this, e.g. the hagiography of St. John of Kronstadt).

This particular poster that I saw, however, brought up something uncomfortable (he is a Latin btw, and fully supportive of the manadated celibacy it seems): why do the restored deacons in the Latin rite get to have relations with their wives (I don't know how he has proved that they do Shocked)?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2009, 09:52:21 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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ialmisry
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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2009, 10:15:42 AM »

I located the quote, and yes, there seems to be more to it that our apologists were summarizing:

Quote
In the thirteenth year of the sixth indiction364 some bishops from Asia came to Constantinople on business and stayed with us. Besides these, there were other bishops, including one from Scythia, Theotimus,365 one from Thrace, Ammon the Egyptian, and one from Galatia, Arabianus----all metropolitans, advanced in years; making a total of twenty-two bishops.366 A certain Eusebius, from the district known |118 as Kilbia, Bishop of Valentinopolis,367 took the opportunity of these being assembled and holding communion together to come forward in the assembled synod,368 on the first day of the week, and lay memorials before it, against Antoninus, Bishop of Ephesus; to these charges, so as to be in order, he of course prefixed the name of John. The charges fell under seven heads; first, that he had melted down Church plate, and placed the proceeds to the account of his son; second, that he had carried away marble from the entrance of the baptistery, and used it for the improvement of his own bathroom; next, that he had set up pillars belonging to the Church, which had been in position for many years, in his own dining-room; fourth, that his servant had committed murder, and that he was still keeping him in his service, without bringing him to trial; fifth, that he had sold some land bequeathed to the Church by Basilina, the mother of King Julian, and kept the money; sixth, that after separating from 369 his married wife, he had taken her again, and had had children born to him by her; seventh, that he regarded it as law, and dogma, to sell consecration to bishopricks at prices in proportion to the emoluments. He added that there were persons present who had paid such money, and been consecrated, as well as the man who had received it; and that he had proofs of his statements. |119


Quote
369. 3  The word is frequent for "saying good-bye to" (Luke ix. 61, etc.), so for "renouncing the world," "retiring to the desert as a monk," etc. According to the "Apostolic Canons," only the lower orders of clergy were allowed to marry after their appointment to office; the Council in Trullo ordered that a bishop's wife should retire to a convent, or become a deaconess; that of Caesarea, that if a priest marries after ordination he must be degraded. For Antoninus to resume relations with his wife was equivalent to marriage after ordination. It was proposed at the Council of Nicaea that married clergy should be compelled to separate from their wives, but the proposal was rejected; though it was generally held that the relations of bishops with their wives should be those of brother and sister. Cf. pp. 129, 136.
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/palladius_dialogus_02_text.htm#C14

In other words, he had take monastic vows, and then broke them, in addition to enriching his children's inheritence at the Church's expense.

I can't help but wonder if the omission that Antonius was a bishop, not just a priest, is intentional.  Latin apologists are always quick to point out that we don't have married bishops (but then, we don't have one "living in perfect continence" either).
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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2009, 10:34:17 AM »

Nice work, Isa.
To this I'd add that we may not have married bishops now, but the related canons merely state that bishops must be celibate and that married bishops "put their wife away" (to a monastery) and become celibate. Implication of course points to a married priesthood or...the opposite of RC contention.
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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2009, 05:48:11 PM »

Ask the Roman Catholics about this man who was a married schismatic bishop whom they accepted him into their Church "as is":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salom%C3%A3o_Barbosa_Ferraz
http://islamdom.blogspot.com/2008/12/curious-case-of-married-roman-catholic.html
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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2009, 04:46:46 AM »

Ask the Roman Catholics about this man who was a married schismatic bishop whom they accepted him into their Church "as is":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salom%C3%A3o_Barbosa_Ferraz
http://islamdom.blogspot.com/2008/12/curious-case-of-married-roman-catholic.html

This is hardly new or infrequent. There are any number of married Roman Catholic priests who have converted to that church from Anglicanism or other denominations over the years, particularly in recent years after the Anglicans began allowing the ordination of women.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2009, 10:05:46 PM »

Came across our bishop Antonius again in a rather strange article that the Vatican has:
Quote
Priestly celibacy in patristics and in

the history of the Church

Roman Cholij

Secretary of the Apostolic Exarch for Ukrainian Catholics in

Great Britain
Quote
Synesius. of Ptolemais, of the Libyan Church, knows that he is expected to live in continence with his wife if made bishop,39 and Palladius the historian reports that a synod presided over by John Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople in the year 400, condemned Anton inus, Bishop of Ephesus, for doing what was forbidden by the ‘holy laws’ including resuming common life with his wife.40
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_01011993_chisto_en.html
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« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2009, 10:08:37 PM »

Ask the Roman Catholics about this man who was a married schismatic bishop whom they accepted him into their Church "as is":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salom%C3%A3o_Barbosa_Ferraz
http://islamdom.blogspot.com/2008/12/curious-case-of-married-roman-catholic.html

This is hardly new or infrequent. There are any number of married Roman Catholic priests who have converted to that church from Anglicanism or other denominations over the years, particularly in recent years after the Anglicans began allowing the ordination of women.

Yes, but they did not accept them as bishops as in this case. The married Anglican bishops were reordained or ordained "sub conditione" as priests. This is, to my knowledge, the only case in modern times that a married bishop was accepted "as is" and allowed to continue as a bishop.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 10:11:20 PM by Fr. Anastasios » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2009, 10:53:59 PM »

Ask the Roman Catholics about this man who was a married schismatic bishop whom they accepted him into their Church "as is":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salom%C3%A3o_Barbosa_Ferraz
http://islamdom.blogspot.com/2008/12/curious-case-of-married-roman-catholic.html

This is hardly new or infrequent. There are any number of married Roman Catholic priests who have converted to that church from Anglicanism or other denominations over the years, particularly in recent years after the Anglicans began allowing the ordination of women.

Yes, but they did not accept them as bishops as in this case. The married Anglican bishops were reordained or ordained "sub conditione" as priests. This is, to my knowledge, the only case in modern times that a married bishop was accepted "as is" and allowed to continue as a bishop.

Fr Anastasios, I did not mention bishops in my post, only priests.  police
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« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2009, 11:14:45 PM »

Ask the Roman Catholics about this man who was a married schismatic bishop whom they accepted him into their Church "as is":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salom%C3%A3o_Barbosa_Ferraz
http://islamdom.blogspot.com/2008/12/curious-case-of-married-roman-catholic.html

This is hardly new or infrequent. There are any number of married Roman Catholic priests who have converted to that church from Anglicanism or other denominations over the years, particularly in recent years after the Anglicans began allowing the ordination of women.

Yes, but they did not accept them as bishops as in this case. The married Anglican bishops were reordained or ordained "sub conditione" as priests. This is, to my knowledge, the only case in modern times that a married bishop was accepted "as is" and allowed to continue as a bishop.

Fr Anastasios, I did not mention bishops in my post, only priests.  police

Yes, but you quoted my post in formulating your reply, which was specifically about a bishop rather than a priest.  police

One reason I had for originally citing this case was its sheer novelty.  And as I am sure you know, both married Anglican bishops and married Anglican priests were received into the RCC under the pastoral provision, but in both cases were (re)ordained only as priests.  While you may have only mentioned priests in your post, it was in response to my post about a bishop, and given that both bishops and priests became married Roman Catholic priests under the pastoral provision, when I saw your reply that such was hardly new or infrequent, I was led to reply that in this case it was in actuality quite novel.  Cool

Perhaps my original post was not specific enough as to intent, leading to your more general reply?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 11:18:09 PM by Fr. Anastasios » Logged

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