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Poll
Question: From which Priest you eventually would take Holy Eucharist?
non mainstream Orthodox (not-recognized autocephaly, old calendarists) - 18 (23.4%)
Oriental Orthodox (if you are EO)/Eastern Orthodox (if you are OO) - 22 (28.6%)
Catholic - 7 (9.1%)
Anglican - 4 (5.2%)
Evangelic (Lutheran, Metodist, Presbyterian, UCC) - 1 (1.3%)
Evangelical (Baptist, Pentecostal, Adventist...) - 0 (0%)
neither - 25 (32.5%)
Total Voters: 54

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Author Topic: Life hazard situation  (Read 9101 times) Average Rating: 0
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mike
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« on: February 22, 2009, 04:43:28 PM »

Imagine such a situation: you fainted and were taken to a hospital by an ambulance. There you were told that you've got a cerebral haemorrhage and 30 minutes life left. There are not any priest from your Church or a Church that is in communion with yours in 50-miles-range. You know that Holy Eucharists makes salvation easier but you are in doubts what to do.
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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2009, 04:49:56 PM »

None. I am Orthodox.
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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2009, 04:52:08 PM »

I would make the trek to an Orthodox church in communion with mine (or mine) as often as is feasible no matter how far it is. Even if this meant I could only receive a few times a year. But foremost I would speak with my spiritual father and ask him what he suggests.
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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2009, 05:06:46 PM »

I would make the trek to an Orthodox church in communion with mine (or mine) as often as is feasible no matter how far it is. Even if this meant I could only receive a few times a year. But foremost I would speak with my spiritual father and ask him what he suggests.

But in this hypothetical situation you are dying, with no Orthodox Church close by.
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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2009, 05:07:05 PM »

However one Priest (EO) told me that maybe it wouldn't be so bad to take Holy Body and Blood of Christ from another Priest (he meant Catholic) personally I wouldn't know what to do because it'd be strange for me and propably I wouldn't take from any.
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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2009, 05:18:51 PM »

I would contact my priest and pray alot. Although if you are capable of thought let alone speech with a cerebral hemorrhage it would be miraculous and they could likely do something about it.
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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2009, 05:21:31 PM »

Let's put it this way-my husband is in the military and could theoretically attend Catholic Mass and have the Eucharist (according to the Catholic church he can) since there are no services available to him. But we have been instructed by our priest that you are not to receive from a non-orthodox under any circumstances.
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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2009, 05:25:23 PM »

I would contact my priest and pray alot. Although if you are capable of thought let alone speech with a cerebral hemorrhage it would be miraculous and they could likely do something about it.

 Angry I'm not a medic. So you've got your legs cut off and you're going to bleed to death, or something similar. Use your imagination.
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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2009, 05:35:02 PM »

Your situations don't make sense to me. Again-in a hospital they wouldn't let you bleed to death. When doctors give a person less than an hour to live they typically aren't capable of thinking very well, let alone alert enough to call any priest. A person can choose not to be on life support anymore. But in that case they would have been ill a long time.

That is like asking;

What if you wake up in the middle of the night and know you are about to die-what would you do?
(My grandmother woke in the middle of the night and knew she would die. She rolled over, woke her husband and told him how much she loved him, then passed away.)

You don't entirely know what you would do in that sort of situation until it happens. I would start reciting the Psalms if I could.
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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2009, 05:36:05 PM »

Why ask about "what if's" about dying and the eucharist anyway?
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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2009, 05:37:48 PM »

OO churches are so far apart. Is it common to have an OO parish close but not an EO?
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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2009, 05:39:15 PM »

Your situations don't make sense to me. Again-in a hospital they wouldn't let you bleed to death. When doctors give a person less than an hour to live they typically aren't capable of thinking very well, let alone alert enough to call any priest. A person can choose not to be on life support anymore. But in that case they would have been ill a long time.

That is like asking;

What if you wake up in the middle of the night and know you are about to die-what would you do?
(My grandmother woke in the middle of the night and knew she would die. She rolled over, woke her husband and told him how much she loved him, then  passed away.)


I think your missing the point. He is not looking at this question as a medical question but one about your views of "other" Churches besides your own. I chose Oriental Orthodox and Catholic.
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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2009, 05:42:37 PM »

"Other" churches are fine. Receiving the sacraments is important. But if you are instructed by your priest not to partake of non-"whatever" sacraments then you need to obey that. The Catholic church is fine, I have enjoyed a mass or two. But I wouldn't go forward for the Eucharist.
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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2009, 05:44:40 PM »

If you wouldn't partake even though you were isolated (i.e your parish is 100 miles away and the local "non"-whatever parish is 5 miles away) why should you change that because you are dying? Have a priest that isn't in communion pray for you? By all means!
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« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2009, 05:46:28 PM »

I voted for "none".
I wouldn't want my last act on Earth to be an act of schism from my Church.
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« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2009, 05:47:21 PM »

Exactly
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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2009, 05:49:30 PM »

None. I would simply ask the nurses to turn my bed so I could face east if possible,recite the Sh'ma Yisroel, and leave my fate in the hands of Almighty G-d.
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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2009, 05:53:22 PM »

I voted for "none".
I wouldn't want my last act on Earth to be an act of schism from my Church.

This is actually a very good point and I'm rethinking my answer!
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2009, 05:56:17 PM »

I wouldn't want my last act on Earth to be an act of schism from my Church.

Maybe not 'act of schism' but the very last opportunity to clean and enlighten your body and soul*, to destroy your sins, to get a support on the way to the eternal life with the Holy Body and Blood of Christ.

* my own-translated quotes from pre-Eucharist prayers
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2009, 05:59:23 PM »

How would going against your spiritual authorities "clean and enlighten your body and soul?" You are what you are because it is the TRUTH. The truth is the truth irregardless of your life (or soon lack thereof) situation.
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« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2009, 06:00:18 PM »

I love it how so many people think that somehow being on the verge of death blurs the lines of right and wrong.
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« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2009, 06:00:26 PM »

I voted for both...

non mainstream Orthodox (not-recognized autocephaly, old calendarists)

And...

Oriental Orthodox (if you are EO)/Eastern Orthodox (if you are OO)

But then, I consider them Orthodox, so I wouldn't see it as an act of betrayal or schism or seperation or whatever word you want to use. Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2009, 06:01:37 PM »

But would non-mainstream or OO allow you to partake is the question that is being left out.
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« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2009, 06:03:19 PM »

I wouldn't want my last act on Earth to be an act of schism from my Church.

Maybe not 'act of schism' but the very last opportunity to clean and enlighten your body and soul*, to destroy your sins, to get a support on the way to the eternal life with the Holy Body and Blood of Christ.

* my own-translated quotes from pre-Eucharist prayers

How can the Eucharist exist outside of the Church? Does Christ exist outside of his own body?
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« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2009, 06:03:58 PM »

Christ is present in the same way in the Catholic Eucharists as He is in the Orthodox one. He sanctify you, not the pope.
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« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2009, 06:05:12 PM »

I wouldn't want my last act on Earth to be an act of schism from my Church.

Maybe not 'act of schism' but the very last opportunity to clean and enlighten your body and soul*, to destroy your sins, to get a support on the way to the eternal life with the Holy Body and Blood of Christ.

* my own-translated quotes from pre-Eucharist prayers

I don't see Communing with schismatics as being at all "cleansing", I see it as eating and drinking condemnation. When we commune, we concretely show that we are of one Faith with those whom we Commune with. If I am one Faith with schismatics, I have rejected the Church.

This then is a very good reason why we should Commune frequently and regularly in our own Churches, so that we don't starve Eternally.

Actually, I just re-read the first option which includes "not-recognized autocephaly".
In the case of "not recognised autocephaly", I would accept Holy Communion from an OCA Priest. Even though my Church does not recognise it's autocephaly, we are still in Communion.
The issue is not autocephaly, but Communion.
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« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2009, 06:06:13 PM »

Quote
But would non-mainstream or OO allow you to partake is the question that is being left out.

Probably not the old calendarists. I would guess that the OO would, though; after all, Oriental Orthodox Christians partake of the eucharist in my Antiochian parish every week.
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« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2009, 06:06:33 PM »

The Christ is present in the same way in the Catholic Eucharists as He is in the Orthodox one. He sanctify you, not the pope.

No, he's not.

Orthodoxy does not believe in magic.  Sacraments happen in the context of faith, not as a right of someone "validly ordained."  If you step outside of the unity of faith, you cannot minister the sacraments.  Christ gives the sacraments to those who are in the Church to strengthen faith. They are not some "power" that someone can use by right after being "validly ordained."

There have been times when there are temporary schisms, where the faith was not changed, where both sides continued having the mysteries.  But the schism with Catholics is now over 800 years old, and the faith has changed considerably on their end.
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« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2009, 06:07:53 PM »

Fr. Anastasios; could a non old calendarist orthodox ask and receive communion at any time?
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« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2009, 06:10:01 PM »

Fr. Anastasios; could a non old calendarist orthodox ask and receive communion at any time?

Are you asking if I would give communion to someone not in communion with my church? Or are we still talking about Catholics and other non Orthodox?
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« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2009, 06:11:17 PM »

Could/would you give communion to someone not in communion with your church.
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« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2009, 06:11:42 PM »

I love it how so many people think that somehow being on the verge of death blurs the lines of right and wrong.

Exactly!
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« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2009, 06:12:03 PM »

Actually, I just re-read the first option which includes "not-recognized autocephaly".
In the case of "not recognised autocephaly", I would accept Holy Communion from an OCA Priest. Even though my Church does not recognise it's autocephaly, we are still in Communion.
The issue is not autocephaly, but Communion.

Please, stop picking at me. One admits that it's medically impossible, you write something like this. I thought it is clear that the first option means the Church which claims to be Orthodox and its founders originated from canonical Church but now they are not in Communion with mine Church because of issues with aren't connected to the canons but rather history, politics or personal disagreements.

Orthodoxy does not believe in magic.  Sacraments happen in the context of faith, not as a right of someone "validly ordained."  If you step outside of the unity of faith, you cannot minister the sacraments.  Christ gives the sacraments to those who are in the Church to strengthen faith. They are not some "power" that someone can use by right after being "validly ordained."

There have been times when there are temporary schisms, where the faith was not changed, where both sides continued having the mysteries.  But the schism with Catholics is now over 800 years old, and the faith has changed considerably on their end.

So with the my point of view Christ isn't present in the Communion you give to your parishioners?
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« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2009, 06:16:53 PM »

Mike-you aren't being "picked on" your arguments are being rejected. Being disagreed with and "picked on" are two very different things.
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« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2009, 06:19:39 PM »

Actually, I just re-read the first option which includes "not-recognized autocephaly".
In the case of "not recognised autocephaly", I would accept Holy Communion from an OCA Priest. Even though my Church does not recognise it's autocephaly, we are still in Communion.
The issue is not autocephaly, but Communion.

Please, stop picking at me. One admits that it's medically impossible, you write something like this. I thought it is clear that the first option means the Church which claims to be Orthodox and it's founders originated from canonical Church but now they are not in Communion with mine Church because of issues with aren't connected to the canons but rather history or politics

Mike, I'm not picking on you, I just misunderstood you because this is not what "autocephalous" means at all. "Autocephalous" means "self governing", that is, that a Church is governed by it's own Synod and has it's own Primate, and this is recognised by other Churches.
I'm sorry if you think I'm picking on you, but that's not my intention. I actually think you've asked a good question which has got people thinking and talking.
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« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2009, 06:23:49 PM »

Could/would you give communion to someone not in communion with your church.

No, I could not, as the question is presented here, although this would be by definition a pastoral issue. Allow me to elaborate.

Touching on what you said above, imagine if someone who was a member of the New Calendar Church was dying and he called for an Orthodox priest to give him communion.  Imagine through some confusion the hospital called me.  If I went and communed this person who was not in communion with me, without them knowing I was Old Calendarist, that would be very deceptive on my part, I would imagine.

Now if this theoretical New Calendar person asked me to commune them, whether on their deathbed or not, I would have to ask them some questions such as, why all of a sudden do you want an Old Calendar priest to give you communion? Do you know the difference?  If some answer came out like, "I've been meaning to join the Old Calendar Church for some time now" then that would be one thing, but if the answer were "it's all the same" I'd probably have to ask the hospital staff to call up the local New Calendar priest for them.

I guess what it boils down to is, if someone is about to die and they are just frantically trying to get communion, it might do them better to just confess their sins.
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« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2009, 06:25:19 PM »

Mike-you aren't being "picked on" your arguments are being rejected. Being disagreed with and "picked on" are two very different things.


I distinguish content-related arguments of Fr. Anastasios and the fact is is possible to talk without legs or move with hemorrhage or the fact that OCA is in Communion but it's autocephaly isn't universally recognised what doesn't matter according to my question.
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« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2009, 06:26:26 PM »

This is something my husband and I have thought about a lot. The services where he is were just cancelled so he no longer has any Orthodox services he can attend. He could attend a Roman Catholic mass regularly if he chose. But he could not partake in communion if he did. Roman Catholics are happy to give communion to Orthodox actually. But simply because you can, doesn't mean you should.

And as far as OO and "not in communion" orthodox churches go-I think you are putting the cart before the horse. Do we know if you even can receive from either if you aren't a part of them?
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« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2009, 06:27:38 PM »



So with the my point of view Christ isn't present in the Communion you give to your parishioners?

Speaking from your Church's point of view, there are some people in your Church that feel this way, that my Church's sacraments are devoid of grace, while there are some that would say that because the division is new and the faith has not been altered, grace continues for the time being.  Both views are based on certain logical principles and really it does not offend me when people express either view (it would not make much sense for me to base my decisions on what other people think anyway).

It seems to me though that the New vs Old Calendar situation is a bit less clear than the Orthodox vs Catholic situation where 800 years have passed along with synodal decisions condemning the changes of faith in the Latin Church.
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« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2009, 06:28:33 PM »

Mike-you aren't being "picked on" your arguments are being rejected. Being disagreed with and "picked on" are two very different things.


I distinguish content-related arguments of Fr. Anastasios and the fact is is possible to talk without legs or move with hemorrhage or the fact that OCA is in Communion but it's autocephaly isn't universally recognised what doesn't matter according to my question.

Actually I agree Mike, I think what you meant were people like the Ukrainian KP, not people like the OCA who while their autocephaly is debated, are in full communion with your Church.
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« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2009, 06:28:41 PM »

Could/would you give communion to someone not in communion with your church.

No, I could not, as the question is presented here, although this would be by definition a pastoral issue. Allow me to elaborate.

Touching on what you said above, imagine if someone who was a member of the New Calendar Church was dying and he called for an Orthodox priest to give him communion.  Imagine through some confusion the hospital called me.  If I went and communed this person who was not in communion with me, without them knowing I was Old Calendarist, that would be very deceptive on my part, I would imagine.

Now if this theoretical New Calendar person asked me to commune them, whether on their deathbed or not, I would have to ask them some questions such as, why all of a sudden do you want an Old Calendar priest to give you communion? Do you know the difference?  If some answer came out like, "I've been meaning to join the Old Calendar Church for some time now" then that would be one thing, but if the answer were "it's all the same" I'd probably have to ask the hospital staff to call up the local New Calendar priest for them.

I guess what it boils down to is, if someone is about to die and they are just frantically trying to get communion, it might do them better to just confess their sins.

Thank you Father, that makes perfect sense and is essentially how I thought it would work.

It seems like a great insult to assume the Eucharist is the Eucharist and it doesn't matter who it comes from.
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« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2009, 06:30:23 PM »

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Do we know if you even can receive from either if you aren't a part of them?

It probably differs from priest to priest and communion to communion, but I feel relatively certain that most OO would commune an EO on his death bed, considering that intercommunion already happens under more normal circumstances.
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« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2009, 06:31:42 PM »

My vote was "Non-Mainstream Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Catholic." Of course, that would be if I were REALLY dying. I love my Church and I do not want to be a schismatic, and I am sure the Lord knows it. But I am not sure that the rift between the EO, the OO and the "non-mainstream" EO is all that huge, not to the extent I would throw away the treasure of my last Eucharist if there were no "mainstream" EO priest near. Same thing the Catholic priests. Yes, our Church and the Roman archdiocese (who, I know, unlawfully calls itself "the Catholic Church") are in the state of the most unfortunate separation, which is not our (EO) fault. But again, we used to be the same Church, and in such an extreme situation where I would have to choose between their Eucharist and no Eucharist, I would perhaps ask the Lord to forgive me and choose their Eucharist.
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« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2009, 06:32:56 PM »

If someone had a severe cerebral hemmorhage and couldn't speak for themselves, thier family members would make the decision as to what clergy to call.

So let's make this easier, say you had a massive heart attack, and your chances of living more than a couple more hours were slim; in fact your cardilogist just told you he was sure you're not going live more than 1-3 hours. You're still awake, oriented and able to speak for yourself. Which of th eoriginal choices would you go with?


I've seen an GOA priest give the Anointing and Communion to an RC, and an Armenian priest give the Rites to an EO under circumstances where thier own clergy couldn't get there. I work in a hospital and see people deal with real (not theoretical) life and death situations on a regular basis.
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« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2009, 06:34:12 PM »

Mike,

I'm sorry if I was too blunt in my reply about Catholic communion.  I realize that there are people especially in Slavic countries who believe that both Churches have "valid sacraments" so I certainly don't want to make it seem like I think you are abnormal for the question you asked.

I do have to be clear though that I think this opinion (that both Churches have valid sacraments) is not correct, for the reason given above, but I didn't mean to come across with the impression that you are the first person that I have met that thinks this way.

Sorry!
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