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Poll
Question: From which Priest you eventually would take Holy Eucharist?
non mainstream Orthodox (not-recognized autocephaly, old calendarists) - 18 (23.4%)
Oriental Orthodox (if you are EO)/Eastern Orthodox (if you are OO) - 22 (28.6%)
Catholic - 7 (9.1%)
Anglican - 4 (5.2%)
Evangelic (Lutheran, Metodist, Presbyterian, UCC) - 1 (1.3%)
Evangelical (Baptist, Pentecostal, Adventist...) - 0 (0%)
neither - 25 (32.5%)
Total Voters: 54

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« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2009, 06:35:12 PM »

But again-is it very likely that you would be closer to an OO parish or a Old Calendar parish than an Orthodox parish within 100 or so miles?
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« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2009, 06:39:31 PM »

But again-is it very likely that you would be closer to an OO parish or a Old Calendar parish than an Orthodox parish within 100 or so miles?

Question of geography. If you lived here in VA, the GOA and OCA parishes are in the more populous areas. I know of one Old Cal. Russian church that is in a rural part of the Blue Ridge, the only Eastern Christian presence in the area.
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« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2009, 06:45:08 PM »

@Quinault and Crucifer: please start another topic to discuss the medical problems, density of a disposal of the Parishes, the possibility of finding oneself with a RC Priest on a remote island an similar things. Because the topic is getting messed.

@Fr. Anastasios: I haven't felt offended. It's your opinion and I esteem it. I would like to read similar statements of the others.

@Quinault: The story I wrote in the first post didn't have to be real. I wanted to make you imagine that you are going to die very soon and there isn't any Orthodox priest who would be able to arrive before you die, that's all. Neither subtexts nor metaphorical meanings.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 07:10:06 PM by mike » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2009, 06:46:40 PM »

There are no less than 20 OCA, GOA and Antiochian parishes in WA state. And I have found only a handful of various OO parishes (haven't found any Old believers yet. Although I know there is a very large segment of them outside Salem OR). And they all live together in a community there.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 06:48:19 PM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2009, 06:47:49 PM »

Mike-you asked the question, and in the question you asked specifically about distance.
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« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2009, 06:48:53 PM »

None. I am Orthodox.

Me neither. I'm Orthodox, too.

St. Mary of Egypt is just good example
http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=100963

That, of course, doesn't relate to a Church whose autocephalia isn't recognized, but is in communion with my Church - I would receive there, even without being in such a grave situation - but does relate to Old Calendarists. These two are gathered together in pool inappropriately.
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« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2009, 06:48:54 PM »

Let's put it this way-my husband is in the military and could theoretically attend Catholic Mass and have the Eucharist (according to the Catholic church he can) since there are no services available to him. But we have been instructed by our priest that you are not to receive from a non-orthodox under any circumstances.

You have a good priest. Many years!
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« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2009, 06:51:32 PM »

Orthodoxy or death!

In this situation, you can have both. Wink
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« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2009, 06:51:54 PM »

Orthodoxy or death!

In this situation, you can have both. Wink

Grin
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« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2009, 06:56:51 PM »

There are no less than 20 OCA, GOA and Antiochian parishes in WA state. And I have found only a handful of various OO parishes (haven't found any Old believers yet. Although I know there is a very large segment of them outside Salem OR). And they all live together in a community there.
Which is why i say it is a question of geography. I was speaking about VA (Virginia) not WA (Washington).
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« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2009, 06:59:31 PM »

There are 28 OCA, GOA and Antiochian parishes in VA and it is MUCH smaller than WA. And even OR with it's huge Old Believers population (there are 10,000) has 11 OCA, GOA and Antiochian parishes.


(Reference to the 10,000 Old Believers in OR)
http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/6005-9.cfm
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« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2009, 07:39:32 PM »

There are 28 OCA, GOA and Antiochian parishes in VA and it is MUCH smaller than WA. And even OR with it's huge Old Believers population (there are 10,000) has 11 OCA, GOA and Antiochian parishes.


(Reference to the 10,000 Old Believers in OR)
http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/6005-9.cfm


But as I pointed out many of those parishes are clustered in the more populous areas. This Old Calendar church:
http://www.allsaintsofamerica.org/ is in an isolated rural area, which is often inaccesible in icy whether.
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« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2009, 08:57:25 PM »

I voted none.  For an Orthodox Christian, receiving a non-Orthodox Eucharist from non-Orthodox clergy is absolute blasphemy.   Non-Orthodox are devoid of any priesthood, and their sacraments are not the body and blood of Christ.  The only thing you would be missing by refusing their "communion," is the opportunity to commit apostasy on your deathbed!  That's an opportunity worth missing!
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« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2009, 09:15:27 PM »


I guess what it boils down to is, if someone is about to die and they are just frantically trying to get communion, it might do them better to just confess their sins.

Would you confess and grant absolution to someone outside of your communion, in the situation described in the OP?
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« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2009, 10:20:56 PM »

Confession is a much better example IMO actually.
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« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2009, 10:23:07 PM »

And yet confession is a sacrament.  If one sacrament can't be given across Chruch borders, how could the other?
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« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2009, 04:30:51 PM »

I guess what it boils down to is, if someone is about to die and they are just frantically trying to get communion, it might do them better to just confess their sins.
Would you confess and grant absolution to someone outside of your communion, in the situation described in the OP?

I absolutely agree w/Fr. Anastasios.  Accordingly, if there's no priest around to administer communion which you deem a true Eucharist, then there's no priest around to hear your confession, either.  I suppose I would just cross myself, start the Trisagion, then begin to confess my sins directly to God.

We can still do that, you know.  Smiley
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« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2009, 04:41:54 PM »


I absolutely agree w/Fr. Anastasios.  Accordingly, if there's no priest around to administer communion which you deem a true Eucharist, then there's no priest around to hear your confession, either. 

The one thing we are sure is that our Orthodox Church kept the true Faith and is the one which is fully graced. We cannot directly state that OOs/Catholics aren't also. Maybe Lord hasn't abandon them despite not being in Communion with us and their heteorthodox teachings, who knows? Maybe their sacraments are graced as ours?

Majority of you posted that you wouldn't risk that. I also voted it, but maybe I voted wrong. Maybe one should risk receiving their Sacraments? Maybe this would lead him to the salvation.

I'm not trying to convince you but maybe we should think our choices through? We treat participating in Sacraments of other Church as a betrayal of our Faith. It certainly is betrayal during normal conditions. But we should do everything to achieve salvation. A drowning man catches at a straw

I can understand that you voted for Churches not in Communion, OOs and Catholics but why Anglicans and Evangelics? Do they have sacraments even according to their teachings? Aren't they treated as symbols even by them?
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« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2009, 04:50:09 PM »


I absolutely agree w/Fr. Anastasios.  Accordingly, if there's no priest around to administer communion which you deem a true Eucharist, then there's no priest around to hear your confession, either. 

The one thing we are sure is that our Orthodox Church kept the true Faith and is the one which is fully graced. We cannot directly state that OOs/Catholics aren't also. Maybe Lord hasn't abandon them despite not being in Communion with us and their heteorthodox teachings, who knows? Maybe their sacraments are graced as ours?

Majority of you posted that you wouldn't risk that. I also voted it, but maybe I voted wrong. Maybe one should risk receiving their Sacraments? Maybe this would lead him to the salvation.

I'm not trying to convince you but maybe we should rethink our choices? We treat participating in Sacraments of other Church as a betrayal of our Faith. It certainly is betrayal during normal conditions. But we should do everything to achieve salvation. A drowning man catches at a straw

Your whole argument seems to be based on the notion that Orthodox Christians have something to fear from death.  The Orthodox Church is the Body of Christ and the pillar and foundation of truth, and therefore confessing to a heterodox "priest" or receiving their "Eucharist" is a betrayal of Christ and His Body.  That's dangerous enough under "normal conditions" - if anything, this is even more dangerous for one who is about to meet Christ face to face.
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« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2009, 04:57:40 PM »

We cannot be sure that we've done everything before the death.

I realised that we won't come to terms Smiley due to things Fr. Anastasios pointed out. Most of you are sure that others aren't graced by Christ. I think that they might be.

.
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« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2009, 05:40:46 PM »

We spoke about this recently in Bible Study. The only person you can receive the Eucharist from is an Orthodox priest.

In regards to confession, if you are dying and an Orthodox priest cannot get to you in time, you can confess to another Orthodox Christian. Then, the next time they go to confession, they will relay your confession to the priest.

I spent the first half of my life seeking the One, True, Holy Church. I bounced around long enough in my life.

In the post-Communion hymn we sing, "We have seen the true light, we have received the heavenly spirit. We have found the true faith, worshipping the undivided Trinity, who has saved us."

Now that I have found the truth, why would I abandon it on my death bed for the sake of convenience?
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« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2009, 11:24:39 AM »


I guess what it boils down to is, if someone is about to die and they are just frantically trying to get communion, it might do them better to just confess their sins.

Would you confess and grant absolution to someone outside of your communion, in the situation described in the OP?

I would separate the ideas of confession and absolution first.

I would hear the confession of anyone that was near death and offer them correction, which would necessarily include exhorting them to abandon whatever heresy or schism they were a part of.  Confession has over the centuries not just been limited to priests, btw--sometimes people have confessed to monks or nuns, and been absolved by a priest later.  So the act of confessing sins is something that I think should be encouraged and which I would witness for anyone in the situation described above.

I would not offer absolution though in all likelihood.  (Maybe to people from EO non-Old Calendarist Churches, it *might* be a possibility in some case, but again, this is assuming they would even be approaching me, which is not exactly likely).

Why would this be different than communion? Because with communion, I am responsible for whom I give communion to, and holy communion by its definition implies a "co- union."  But with confession, I am more of a witness of the person's repentance to Christ. I see this in a different category.  I could be wrong though.
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« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2009, 04:48:35 PM »

That is my view as well Fr. Anastasios-confession is seperate form absolution. But in the situation described above I think at least confessing would be a step in the right direction if I see my life coming to an end in the immediate future and no other priest is available. Absolution is important, but confession- even without absolution has value.
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« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2009, 05:44:10 PM »

Catholic only. I know that the other Apostolic Churches (EO, OO, or Assyrian) would not want to give me communion. NOthing wrong with that. Its their bliefe system.
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« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2009, 05:50:27 PM »

Catholic only. I know that the other Apostolic Churches (EO, OO, or Assyrian) would not want to give me communion. NOthing wrong with that. Its their bliefe system.
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« Reply #70 on: February 27, 2009, 09:56:53 AM »

I think that I agree with Fr. Anastasios, more important than getting a last communion would be the blessing and opportunity to do a last confession and have one last absolution granted by the mercy of God. I was uncertain however  would Fr. Anastasios be able to do that for a new calendarist or not?

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« Reply #71 on: February 27, 2009, 10:00:57 AM »

I voted for both...

non mainstream Orthodox (not-recognized autocephaly, old calendarists)

And...

Oriental Orthodox (if you are EO)/Eastern Orthodox (if you are OO)

But then, I consider them Orthodox, so I wouldn't see it as an act of betrayal or schism or seperation or whatever word you want to use. Smiley


I didn't realize it was about INDIVIDUAL CHOICE I was under the impression that the Church determines who is Orthodox, and who one can take communion from.......
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« Reply #72 on: February 27, 2009, 11:47:06 AM »

Catholic only. I know that the other Apostolic Churches (EO, OO, or Assyrian) would not want to give me communion. NOthing wrong with that. Its their bliefe system.

Actually you could get communion in the Assyrian Church with no problem at all and in fact one of their bishops participated in the consecration of his Eastern Catholic counterpart a few years back if memory serves me correctly.

The Armenians and Indians would give you communion as well in certain circumstances.
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« Reply #73 on: February 27, 2009, 05:01:54 PM »

I love it how so many people think that somehow being on the verge of death blurs the lines of right and wrong.

Exactly!

I seem to remember an entire empire converted to Christianity because the emperor converted and received the sacraments on his death bed. This is in retrospect of said emperor signing death warrants, persecution towards various religious bodies, etc. Isn't that a blurring of the lines between right and wrong? It was thought nothing of running an empire, converting to christianity on your death bed and being saved. Being on the verge of death does alot of things to a person's state of mind.

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« Reply #74 on: February 27, 2009, 05:09:18 PM »

St Constantine's conversion was a bit deeper and more protracted than a deathbed conversion.

Waiting till one's deathbed to be baptized though may have been seen as the most clear way to demonstrate his seriousness, because no good Roman would want to play games on his death bed.  A baptism earlier could have been seen as a dubious or political, but one on the deathbed would have been seen as really serious.
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« Reply #75 on: February 27, 2009, 05:31:23 PM »

St Constantine's conversion was a bit deeper and more protracted than a deathbed conversion.

Waiting till one's deathbed to be baptized though may have been seen as the most clear way to demonstrate his seriousness, because no good Roman would want to play games on his death bed.  A baptism earlier could have been seen as a dubious or political, but one on the deathbed would have been seen as really serious.

I agree with you that Constantine was a unique case, but by the same token, he wasn't the first emperor to do so.

-Nick
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« Reply #76 on: February 27, 2009, 05:57:33 PM »

But those were people that chose to convert on their deathbed. In this hypothetical situation you don't desire to convert, you just want to receive communion in whatever way you can.
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« Reply #77 on: March 09, 2009, 06:34:19 PM »

I'll skip this poll. I don't know whether to vote for non mainstream Orthodox and perhaps also for Oriental Orthodox or neither.
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« Reply #78 on: March 16, 2009, 01:03:51 PM »

I voted for "none".
I wouldn't want my last act on Earth to be an act of schism from my Church.

This would be my vote as well. The Eucharist is the realisation of the Church as the Body of Christ. To receive Communion from those outside the Church is to undermine both the Church and Her Head. It would be better to die without receiving at all.
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« Reply #79 on: April 24, 2009, 05:32:27 PM »

I would contact the hospital chaplain, and if he (or she) is a Christian, I would ask them to pray for me. And I would ask them to contact the nearest Orthodox priest so they could administer a proper Orthodox burial.
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« Reply #80 on: May 04, 2009, 04:18:32 PM »

MOVE TO PITTSBURGH---THE HOLY LAND FOR ORTHODOXY-(LOL)
There is an Orthodox church and priest every 2 blocks so you don't ever have to worry!  They take turns on "call" for hospitals. We will give yunz Pittburghese language lessons for free!
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« Reply #81 on: May 04, 2009, 04:31:56 PM »

Catholic only. I know that the other Apostolic Churches (EO, OO, or Assyrian) would not want to give me communion. NOthing wrong with that. Its their bliefe system.

Actually you could get communion in the Assyrian Church with no problem at all and in fact one of their bishops participated in the consecration of his Eastern Catholic counterpart a few years back if memory serves me correctly.

The Armenians and Indians would give you communion as well in certain circumstances.
Fantastic. Then if an Armenian or Indian Orthodox would offer me communion and no Catholic Priest could give it to me in time then I would take it from one of these Churches. I get a little nervous with the Assyrian Churches though.
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« Reply #82 on: August 03, 2010, 02:20:53 AM »

I voted for "none".
I wouldn't want my last act on Earth to be an act of schism from my Church.

Thanks to Salpy for indicating this thread.

I agree with Ozgeorge and would want my last act on earth, as far as possible, to be a statement of utter truth and clarity and an affirmation of all my past life in the Church.
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« Reply #83 on: June 02, 2011, 01:09:17 AM »

I guess what it boils down to is, if someone is about to die and they are just frantically trying to get communion, it might do them better to just confess their sins.
Would an Orthodox priest accept the confession of a dying Roman Catholic?
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« Reply #84 on: June 02, 2011, 02:27:56 AM »

I guess what it boils down to is, if someone is about to die and they are just frantically trying to get communion, it might do them better to just confess their sins.
Would an Orthodox priest accept the confession of a dying Roman Catholic?

Speaking for myself personally, I could not refuse to hear a dying man's confession and nor could I refuse to pray that God would forgive his sins and receive his soul into eternal life.   The question as to whether that prayer is "sacramental" properly belongs to God, whether He looked upon my prayer for forgiveness as something in the nature of a sacrament or not.
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« Reply #85 on: June 02, 2011, 03:06:54 AM »

However one Priest (EO) told me that maybe it wouldn't be so bad to take Holy Body and Blood of Christ from another Priest (he meant Catholic) personally I wouldn't know what to do because it'd be strange for me and propably I wouldn't take from any.

I thought you believed that there were no Sacraments outside the EOC?
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« Reply #86 on: June 02, 2011, 03:09:02 AM »

I wouldn't want my last act on Earth to be an act of schism from my Church.

Maybe not 'act of schism' but the very last opportunity to clean and enlighten your body and soul*, to destroy your sins, to get a support on the way to the eternal life with the Holy Body and Blood of Christ.

* my own-translated quotes from pre-Eucharist prayers

The Real Presence does not exist outside of the Church.
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« Reply #87 on: June 02, 2011, 03:10:42 AM »

If, hypothetically, I went through with becoming Oriental Orthodox, I would not take from any Protestant minister, nor "Catholic", nor "Eastern Orthodox", nor even any of the schismatic Oriental jurisdictions.
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« Reply #88 on: June 02, 2011, 03:11:50 AM »

I love it how so many people think that somehow being on the verge of death blurs the lines of right and wrong.

Indeed.
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« Reply #89 on: June 02, 2011, 03:12:26 AM »

I voted for both...

non mainstream Orthodox (not-recognized autocephaly, old calendarists)

And...

Oriental Orthodox (if you are EO)/Eastern Orthodox (if you are OO)

But then, I consider them Orthodox, so I wouldn't see it as an act of betrayal or schism or seperation or whatever word you want to use. Smiley

You don't regard the Old Calendarists or Non-Chalcedonians as schismatics?
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