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Poll
Question: From which Priest you eventually would take Holy Eucharist?
non mainstream Orthodox (not-recognized autocephaly, old calendarists) - 18 (23.4%)
Oriental Orthodox (if you are EO)/Eastern Orthodox (if you are OO) - 22 (28.6%)
Catholic - 7 (9.1%)
Anglican - 4 (5.2%)
Evangelic (Lutheran, Metodist, Presbyterian, UCC) - 1 (1.3%)
Evangelical (Baptist, Pentecostal, Adventist...) - 0 (0%)
neither - 25 (32.5%)
Total Voters: 54

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Author Topic: Life hazard situation  (Read 9422 times) Average Rating: 0
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mike
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« on: February 22, 2009, 04:43:28 PM »

Imagine such a situation: you fainted and were taken to a hospital by an ambulance. There you were told that you've got a cerebral haemorrhage and 30 minutes life left. There are not any priest from your Church or a Church that is in communion with yours in 50-miles-range. You know that Holy Eucharists makes salvation easier but you are in doubts what to do.
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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2009, 04:49:56 PM »

None. I am Orthodox.
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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2009, 04:52:08 PM »

I would make the trek to an Orthodox church in communion with mine (or mine) as often as is feasible no matter how far it is. Even if this meant I could only receive a few times a year. But foremost I would speak with my spiritual father and ask him what he suggests.
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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2009, 05:06:46 PM »

I would make the trek to an Orthodox church in communion with mine (or mine) as often as is feasible no matter how far it is. Even if this meant I could only receive a few times a year. But foremost I would speak with my spiritual father and ask him what he suggests.

But in this hypothetical situation you are dying, with no Orthodox Church close by.
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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2009, 05:07:05 PM »

However one Priest (EO) told me that maybe it wouldn't be so bad to take Holy Body and Blood of Christ from another Priest (he meant Catholic) personally I wouldn't know what to do because it'd be strange for me and propably I wouldn't take from any.
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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2009, 05:18:51 PM »

I would contact my priest and pray alot. Although if you are capable of thought let alone speech with a cerebral hemorrhage it would be miraculous and they could likely do something about it.
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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2009, 05:21:31 PM »

Let's put it this way-my husband is in the military and could theoretically attend Catholic Mass and have the Eucharist (according to the Catholic church he can) since there are no services available to him. But we have been instructed by our priest that you are not to receive from a non-orthodox under any circumstances.
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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2009, 05:25:23 PM »

I would contact my priest and pray alot. Although if you are capable of thought let alone speech with a cerebral hemorrhage it would be miraculous and they could likely do something about it.

 Angry I'm not a medic. So you've got your legs cut off and you're going to bleed to death, or something similar. Use your imagination.
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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2009, 05:35:02 PM »

Your situations don't make sense to me. Again-in a hospital they wouldn't let you bleed to death. When doctors give a person less than an hour to live they typically aren't capable of thinking very well, let alone alert enough to call any priest. A person can choose not to be on life support anymore. But in that case they would have been ill a long time.

That is like asking;

What if you wake up in the middle of the night and know you are about to die-what would you do?
(My grandmother woke in the middle of the night and knew she would die. She rolled over, woke her husband and told him how much she loved him, then passed away.)

You don't entirely know what you would do in that sort of situation until it happens. I would start reciting the Psalms if I could.
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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2009, 05:36:05 PM »

Why ask about "what if's" about dying and the eucharist anyway?
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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2009, 05:37:48 PM »

OO churches are so far apart. Is it common to have an OO parish close but not an EO?
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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2009, 05:39:15 PM »

Your situations don't make sense to me. Again-in a hospital they wouldn't let you bleed to death. When doctors give a person less than an hour to live they typically aren't capable of thinking very well, let alone alert enough to call any priest. A person can choose not to be on life support anymore. But in that case they would have been ill a long time.

That is like asking;

What if you wake up in the middle of the night and know you are about to die-what would you do?
(My grandmother woke in the middle of the night and knew she would die. She rolled over, woke her husband and told him how much she loved him, then  passed away.)


I think your missing the point. He is not looking at this question as a medical question but one about your views of "other" Churches besides your own. I chose Oriental Orthodox and Catholic.
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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2009, 05:42:37 PM »

"Other" churches are fine. Receiving the sacraments is important. But if you are instructed by your priest not to partake of non-"whatever" sacraments then you need to obey that. The Catholic church is fine, I have enjoyed a mass or two. But I wouldn't go forward for the Eucharist.
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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2009, 05:44:40 PM »

If you wouldn't partake even though you were isolated (i.e your parish is 100 miles away and the local "non"-whatever parish is 5 miles away) why should you change that because you are dying? Have a priest that isn't in communion pray for you? By all means!
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« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2009, 05:46:28 PM »

I voted for "none".
I wouldn't want my last act on Earth to be an act of schism from my Church.
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« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2009, 05:47:21 PM »

Exactly
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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2009, 05:49:30 PM »

None. I would simply ask the nurses to turn my bed so I could face east if possible,recite the Sh'ma Yisroel, and leave my fate in the hands of Almighty G-d.
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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2009, 05:53:22 PM »

I voted for "none".
I wouldn't want my last act on Earth to be an act of schism from my Church.

This is actually a very good point and I'm rethinking my answer!
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2009, 05:56:17 PM »

I wouldn't want my last act on Earth to be an act of schism from my Church.

Maybe not 'act of schism' but the very last opportunity to clean and enlighten your body and soul*, to destroy your sins, to get a support on the way to the eternal life with the Holy Body and Blood of Christ.

* my own-translated quotes from pre-Eucharist prayers
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2009, 05:59:23 PM »

How would going against your spiritual authorities "clean and enlighten your body and soul?" You are what you are because it is the TRUTH. The truth is the truth irregardless of your life (or soon lack thereof) situation.
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« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2009, 06:00:18 PM »

I love it how so many people think that somehow being on the verge of death blurs the lines of right and wrong.
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« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2009, 06:00:26 PM »

I voted for both...

non mainstream Orthodox (not-recognized autocephaly, old calendarists)

And...

Oriental Orthodox (if you are EO)/Eastern Orthodox (if you are OO)

But then, I consider them Orthodox, so I wouldn't see it as an act of betrayal or schism or seperation or whatever word you want to use. Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2009, 06:01:37 PM »

But would non-mainstream or OO allow you to partake is the question that is being left out.
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« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2009, 06:03:19 PM »

I wouldn't want my last act on Earth to be an act of schism from my Church.

Maybe not 'act of schism' but the very last opportunity to clean and enlighten your body and soul*, to destroy your sins, to get a support on the way to the eternal life with the Holy Body and Blood of Christ.

* my own-translated quotes from pre-Eucharist prayers

How can the Eucharist exist outside of the Church? Does Christ exist outside of his own body?
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« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2009, 06:03:58 PM »

Christ is present in the same way in the Catholic Eucharists as He is in the Orthodox one. He sanctify you, not the pope.
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« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2009, 06:05:12 PM »

I wouldn't want my last act on Earth to be an act of schism from my Church.

Maybe not 'act of schism' but the very last opportunity to clean and enlighten your body and soul*, to destroy your sins, to get a support on the way to the eternal life with the Holy Body and Blood of Christ.

* my own-translated quotes from pre-Eucharist prayers

I don't see Communing with schismatics as being at all "cleansing", I see it as eating and drinking condemnation. When we commune, we concretely show that we are of one Faith with those whom we Commune with. If I am one Faith with schismatics, I have rejected the Church.

This then is a very good reason why we should Commune frequently and regularly in our own Churches, so that we don't starve Eternally.

Actually, I just re-read the first option which includes "not-recognized autocephaly".
In the case of "not recognised autocephaly", I would accept Holy Communion from an OCA Priest. Even though my Church does not recognise it's autocephaly, we are still in Communion.
The issue is not autocephaly, but Communion.
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« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2009, 06:06:13 PM »

Quote
But would non-mainstream or OO allow you to partake is the question that is being left out.

Probably not the old calendarists. I would guess that the OO would, though; after all, Oriental Orthodox Christians partake of the eucharist in my Antiochian parish every week.
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« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2009, 06:06:33 PM »

The Christ is present in the same way in the Catholic Eucharists as He is in the Orthodox one. He sanctify you, not the pope.

No, he's not.

Orthodoxy does not believe in magic.  Sacraments happen in the context of faith, not as a right of someone "validly ordained."  If you step outside of the unity of faith, you cannot minister the sacraments.  Christ gives the sacraments to those who are in the Church to strengthen faith. They are not some "power" that someone can use by right after being "validly ordained."

There have been times when there are temporary schisms, where the faith was not changed, where both sides continued having the mysteries.  But the schism with Catholics is now over 800 years old, and the faith has changed considerably on their end.
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« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2009, 06:07:53 PM »

Fr. Anastasios; could a non old calendarist orthodox ask and receive communion at any time?
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« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2009, 06:10:01 PM »

Fr. Anastasios; could a non old calendarist orthodox ask and receive communion at any time?

Are you asking if I would give communion to someone not in communion with my church? Or are we still talking about Catholics and other non Orthodox?
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« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2009, 06:11:17 PM »

Could/would you give communion to someone not in communion with your church.
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« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2009, 06:11:42 PM »

I love it how so many people think that somehow being on the verge of death blurs the lines of right and wrong.

Exactly!
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« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2009, 06:12:03 PM »

Actually, I just re-read the first option which includes "not-recognized autocephaly".
In the case of "not recognised autocephaly", I would accept Holy Communion from an OCA Priest. Even though my Church does not recognise it's autocephaly, we are still in Communion.
The issue is not autocephaly, but Communion.

Please, stop picking at me. One admits that it's medically impossible, you write something like this. I thought it is clear that the first option means the Church which claims to be Orthodox and its founders originated from canonical Church but now they are not in Communion with mine Church because of issues with aren't connected to the canons but rather history, politics or personal disagreements.

Orthodoxy does not believe in magic.  Sacraments happen in the context of faith, not as a right of someone "validly ordained."  If you step outside of the unity of faith, you cannot minister the sacraments.  Christ gives the sacraments to those who are in the Church to strengthen faith. They are not some "power" that someone can use by right after being "validly ordained."

There have been times when there are temporary schisms, where the faith was not changed, where both sides continued having the mysteries.  But the schism with Catholics is now over 800 years old, and the faith has changed considerably on their end.

So with the my point of view Christ isn't present in the Communion you give to your parishioners?
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« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2009, 06:16:53 PM »

Mike-you aren't being "picked on" your arguments are being rejected. Being disagreed with and "picked on" are two very different things.
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« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2009, 06:19:39 PM »

Actually, I just re-read the first option which includes "not-recognized autocephaly".
In the case of "not recognised autocephaly", I would accept Holy Communion from an OCA Priest. Even though my Church does not recognise it's autocephaly, we are still in Communion.
The issue is not autocephaly, but Communion.

Please, stop picking at me. One admits that it's medically impossible, you write something like this. I thought it is clear that the first option means the Church which claims to be Orthodox and it's founders originated from canonical Church but now they are not in Communion with mine Church because of issues with aren't connected to the canons but rather history or politics

Mike, I'm not picking on you, I just misunderstood you because this is not what "autocephalous" means at all. "Autocephalous" means "self governing", that is, that a Church is governed by it's own Synod and has it's own Primate, and this is recognised by other Churches.
I'm sorry if you think I'm picking on you, but that's not my intention. I actually think you've asked a good question which has got people thinking and talking.
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« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2009, 06:23:49 PM »

Could/would you give communion to someone not in communion with your church.

No, I could not, as the question is presented here, although this would be by definition a pastoral issue. Allow me to elaborate.

Touching on what you said above, imagine if someone who was a member of the New Calendar Church was dying and he called for an Orthodox priest to give him communion.  Imagine through some confusion the hospital called me.  If I went and communed this person who was not in communion with me, without them knowing I was Old Calendarist, that would be very deceptive on my part, I would imagine.

Now if this theoretical New Calendar person asked me to commune them, whether on their deathbed or not, I would have to ask them some questions such as, why all of a sudden do you want an Old Calendar priest to give you communion? Do you know the difference?  If some answer came out like, "I've been meaning to join the Old Calendar Church for some time now" then that would be one thing, but if the answer were "it's all the same" I'd probably have to ask the hospital staff to call up the local New Calendar priest for them.

I guess what it boils down to is, if someone is about to die and they are just frantically trying to get communion, it might do them better to just confess their sins.
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« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2009, 06:25:19 PM »

Mike-you aren't being "picked on" your arguments are being rejected. Being disagreed with and "picked on" are two very different things.


I distinguish content-related arguments of Fr. Anastasios and the fact is is possible to talk without legs or move with hemorrhage or the fact that OCA is in Communion but it's autocephaly isn't universally recognised what doesn't matter according to my question.
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« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2009, 06:26:26 PM »

This is something my husband and I have thought about a lot. The services where he is were just cancelled so he no longer has any Orthodox services he can attend. He could attend a Roman Catholic mass regularly if he chose. But he could not partake in communion if he did. Roman Catholics are happy to give communion to Orthodox actually. But simply because you can, doesn't mean you should.

And as far as OO and "not in communion" orthodox churches go-I think you are putting the cart before the horse. Do we know if you even can receive from either if you aren't a part of them?
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« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2009, 06:27:38 PM »



So with the my point of view Christ isn't present in the Communion you give to your parishioners?

Speaking from your Church's point of view, there are some people in your Church that feel this way, that my Church's sacraments are devoid of grace, while there are some that would say that because the division is new and the faith has not been altered, grace continues for the time being.  Both views are based on certain logical principles and really it does not offend me when people express either view (it would not make much sense for me to base my decisions on what other people think anyway).

It seems to me though that the New vs Old Calendar situation is a bit less clear than the Orthodox vs Catholic situation where 800 years have passed along with synodal decisions condemning the changes of faith in the Latin Church.
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« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2009, 06:28:33 PM »

Mike-you aren't being "picked on" your arguments are being rejected. Being disagreed with and "picked on" are two very different things.


I distinguish content-related arguments of Fr. Anastasios and the fact is is possible to talk without legs or move with hemorrhage or the fact that OCA is in Communion but it's autocephaly isn't universally recognised what doesn't matter according to my question.

Actually I agree Mike, I think what you meant were people like the Ukrainian KP, not people like the OCA who while their autocephaly is debated, are in full communion with your Church.
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« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2009, 06:28:41 PM »

Could/would you give communion to someone not in communion with your church.

No, I could not, as the question is presented here, although this would be by definition a pastoral issue. Allow me to elaborate.

Touching on what you said above, imagine if someone who was a member of the New Calendar Church was dying and he called for an Orthodox priest to give him communion.  Imagine through some confusion the hospital called me.  If I went and communed this person who was not in communion with me, without them knowing I was Old Calendarist, that would be very deceptive on my part, I would imagine.

Now if this theoretical New Calendar person asked me to commune them, whether on their deathbed or not, I would have to ask them some questions such as, why all of a sudden do you want an Old Calendar priest to give you communion? Do you know the difference?  If some answer came out like, "I've been meaning to join the Old Calendar Church for some time now" then that would be one thing, but if the answer were "it's all the same" I'd probably have to ask the hospital staff to call up the local New Calendar priest for them.

I guess what it boils down to is, if someone is about to die and they are just frantically trying to get communion, it might do them better to just confess their sins.

Thank you Father, that makes perfect sense and is essentially how I thought it would work.

It seems like a great insult to assume the Eucharist is the Eucharist and it doesn't matter who it comes from.
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« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2009, 06:30:23 PM »

Quote
Do we know if you even can receive from either if you aren't a part of them?

It probably differs from priest to priest and communion to communion, but I feel relatively certain that most OO would commune an EO on his death bed, considering that intercommunion already happens under more normal circumstances.
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« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2009, 06:31:42 PM »

My vote was "Non-Mainstream Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Catholic." Of course, that would be if I were REALLY dying. I love my Church and I do not want to be a schismatic, and I am sure the Lord knows it. But I am not sure that the rift between the EO, the OO and the "non-mainstream" EO is all that huge, not to the extent I would throw away the treasure of my last Eucharist if there were no "mainstream" EO priest near. Same thing the Catholic priests. Yes, our Church and the Roman archdiocese (who, I know, unlawfully calls itself "the Catholic Church") are in the state of the most unfortunate separation, which is not our (EO) fault. But again, we used to be the same Church, and in such an extreme situation where I would have to choose between their Eucharist and no Eucharist, I would perhaps ask the Lord to forgive me and choose their Eucharist.
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« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2009, 06:32:56 PM »

If someone had a severe cerebral hemmorhage and couldn't speak for themselves, thier family members would make the decision as to what clergy to call.

So let's make this easier, say you had a massive heart attack, and your chances of living more than a couple more hours were slim; in fact your cardilogist just told you he was sure you're not going live more than 1-3 hours. You're still awake, oriented and able to speak for yourself. Which of th eoriginal choices would you go with?


I've seen an GOA priest give the Anointing and Communion to an RC, and an Armenian priest give the Rites to an EO under circumstances where thier own clergy couldn't get there. I work in a hospital and see people deal with real (not theoretical) life and death situations on a regular basis.
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« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2009, 06:34:12 PM »

Mike,

I'm sorry if I was too blunt in my reply about Catholic communion.  I realize that there are people especially in Slavic countries who believe that both Churches have "valid sacraments" so I certainly don't want to make it seem like I think you are abnormal for the question you asked.

I do have to be clear though that I think this opinion (that both Churches have valid sacraments) is not correct, for the reason given above, but I didn't mean to come across with the impression that you are the first person that I have met that thinks this way.

Sorry!
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« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2009, 06:35:12 PM »

But again-is it very likely that you would be closer to an OO parish or a Old Calendar parish than an Orthodox parish within 100 or so miles?
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« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2009, 06:39:31 PM »

But again-is it very likely that you would be closer to an OO parish or a Old Calendar parish than an Orthodox parish within 100 or so miles?

Question of geography. If you lived here in VA, the GOA and OCA parishes are in the more populous areas. I know of one Old Cal. Russian church that is in a rural part of the Blue Ridge, the only Eastern Christian presence in the area.
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« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2009, 06:45:08 PM »

@Quinault and Crucifer: please start another topic to discuss the medical problems, density of a disposal of the Parishes, the possibility of finding oneself with a RC Priest on a remote island an similar things. Because the topic is getting messed.

@Fr. Anastasios: I haven't felt offended. It's your opinion and I esteem it. I would like to read similar statements of the others.

@Quinault: The story I wrote in the first post didn't have to be real. I wanted to make you imagine that you are going to die very soon and there isn't any Orthodox priest who would be able to arrive before you die, that's all. Neither subtexts nor metaphorical meanings.
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« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2009, 06:46:40 PM »

There are no less than 20 OCA, GOA and Antiochian parishes in WA state. And I have found only a handful of various OO parishes (haven't found any Old believers yet. Although I know there is a very large segment of them outside Salem OR). And they all live together in a community there.
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« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2009, 06:47:49 PM »

Mike-you asked the question, and in the question you asked specifically about distance.
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« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2009, 06:48:53 PM »

None. I am Orthodox.

Me neither. I'm Orthodox, too.

St. Mary of Egypt is just good example
http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=100963

That, of course, doesn't relate to a Church whose autocephalia isn't recognized, but is in communion with my Church - I would receive there, even without being in such a grave situation - but does relate to Old Calendarists. These two are gathered together in pool inappropriately.
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« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2009, 06:48:54 PM »

Let's put it this way-my husband is in the military and could theoretically attend Catholic Mass and have the Eucharist (according to the Catholic church he can) since there are no services available to him. But we have been instructed by our priest that you are not to receive from a non-orthodox under any circumstances.

You have a good priest. Many years!
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« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2009, 06:51:32 PM »

Orthodoxy or death!

In this situation, you can have both. Wink
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« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2009, 06:51:54 PM »

Orthodoxy or death!

In this situation, you can have both. Wink

Grin
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« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2009, 06:56:51 PM »

There are no less than 20 OCA, GOA and Antiochian parishes in WA state. And I have found only a handful of various OO parishes (haven't found any Old believers yet. Although I know there is a very large segment of them outside Salem OR). And they all live together in a community there.
Which is why i say it is a question of geography. I was speaking about VA (Virginia) not WA (Washington).
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« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2009, 06:59:31 PM »

There are 28 OCA, GOA and Antiochian parishes in VA and it is MUCH smaller than WA. And even OR with it's huge Old Believers population (there are 10,000) has 11 OCA, GOA and Antiochian parishes.


(Reference to the 10,000 Old Believers in OR)
http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/6005-9.cfm
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« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2009, 07:39:32 PM »

There are 28 OCA, GOA and Antiochian parishes in VA and it is MUCH smaller than WA. And even OR with it's huge Old Believers population (there are 10,000) has 11 OCA, GOA and Antiochian parishes.


(Reference to the 10,000 Old Believers in OR)
http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/6005-9.cfm


But as I pointed out many of those parishes are clustered in the more populous areas. This Old Calendar church:
http://www.allsaintsofamerica.org/ is in an isolated rural area, which is often inaccesible in icy whether.
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« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2009, 08:57:25 PM »

I voted none.  For an Orthodox Christian, receiving a non-Orthodox Eucharist from non-Orthodox clergy is absolute blasphemy.   Non-Orthodox are devoid of any priesthood, and their sacraments are not the body and blood of Christ.  The only thing you would be missing by refusing their "communion," is the opportunity to commit apostasy on your deathbed!  That's an opportunity worth missing!
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« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2009, 09:15:27 PM »


I guess what it boils down to is, if someone is about to die and they are just frantically trying to get communion, it might do them better to just confess their sins.

Would you confess and grant absolution to someone outside of your communion, in the situation described in the OP?
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« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2009, 10:20:56 PM »

Confession is a much better example IMO actually.
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« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2009, 10:23:07 PM »

And yet confession is a sacrament.  If one sacrament can't be given across Chruch borders, how could the other?
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« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2009, 04:30:51 PM »

I guess what it boils down to is, if someone is about to die and they are just frantically trying to get communion, it might do them better to just confess their sins.
Would you confess and grant absolution to someone outside of your communion, in the situation described in the OP?

I absolutely agree w/Fr. Anastasios.  Accordingly, if there's no priest around to administer communion which you deem a true Eucharist, then there's no priest around to hear your confession, either.  I suppose I would just cross myself, start the Trisagion, then begin to confess my sins directly to God.

We can still do that, you know.  Smiley
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« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2009, 04:41:54 PM »


I absolutely agree w/Fr. Anastasios.  Accordingly, if there's no priest around to administer communion which you deem a true Eucharist, then there's no priest around to hear your confession, either. 

The one thing we are sure is that our Orthodox Church kept the true Faith and is the one which is fully graced. We cannot directly state that OOs/Catholics aren't also. Maybe Lord hasn't abandon them despite not being in Communion with us and their heteorthodox teachings, who knows? Maybe their sacraments are graced as ours?

Majority of you posted that you wouldn't risk that. I also voted it, but maybe I voted wrong. Maybe one should risk receiving their Sacraments? Maybe this would lead him to the salvation.

I'm not trying to convince you but maybe we should think our choices through? We treat participating in Sacraments of other Church as a betrayal of our Faith. It certainly is betrayal during normal conditions. But we should do everything to achieve salvation. A drowning man catches at a straw

I can understand that you voted for Churches not in Communion, OOs and Catholics but why Anglicans and Evangelics? Do they have sacraments even according to their teachings? Aren't they treated as symbols even by them?
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« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2009, 04:50:09 PM »


I absolutely agree w/Fr. Anastasios.  Accordingly, if there's no priest around to administer communion which you deem a true Eucharist, then there's no priest around to hear your confession, either. 

The one thing we are sure is that our Orthodox Church kept the true Faith and is the one which is fully graced. We cannot directly state that OOs/Catholics aren't also. Maybe Lord hasn't abandon them despite not being in Communion with us and their heteorthodox teachings, who knows? Maybe their sacraments are graced as ours?

Majority of you posted that you wouldn't risk that. I also voted it, but maybe I voted wrong. Maybe one should risk receiving their Sacraments? Maybe this would lead him to the salvation.

I'm not trying to convince you but maybe we should rethink our choices? We treat participating in Sacraments of other Church as a betrayal of our Faith. It certainly is betrayal during normal conditions. But we should do everything to achieve salvation. A drowning man catches at a straw

Your whole argument seems to be based on the notion that Orthodox Christians have something to fear from death.  The Orthodox Church is the Body of Christ and the pillar and foundation of truth, and therefore confessing to a heterodox "priest" or receiving their "Eucharist" is a betrayal of Christ and His Body.  That's dangerous enough under "normal conditions" - if anything, this is even more dangerous for one who is about to meet Christ face to face.
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« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2009, 04:57:40 PM »

We cannot be sure that we've done everything before the death.

I realised that we won't come to terms Smiley due to things Fr. Anastasios pointed out. Most of you are sure that others aren't graced by Christ. I think that they might be.

.
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« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2009, 05:40:46 PM »

We spoke about this recently in Bible Study. The only person you can receive the Eucharist from is an Orthodox priest.

In regards to confession, if you are dying and an Orthodox priest cannot get to you in time, you can confess to another Orthodox Christian. Then, the next time they go to confession, they will relay your confession to the priest.

I spent the first half of my life seeking the One, True, Holy Church. I bounced around long enough in my life.

In the post-Communion hymn we sing, "We have seen the true light, we have received the heavenly spirit. We have found the true faith, worshipping the undivided Trinity, who has saved us."

Now that I have found the truth, why would I abandon it on my death bed for the sake of convenience?
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« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2009, 11:24:39 AM »


I guess what it boils down to is, if someone is about to die and they are just frantically trying to get communion, it might do them better to just confess their sins.

Would you confess and grant absolution to someone outside of your communion, in the situation described in the OP?

I would separate the ideas of confession and absolution first.

I would hear the confession of anyone that was near death and offer them correction, which would necessarily include exhorting them to abandon whatever heresy or schism they were a part of.  Confession has over the centuries not just been limited to priests, btw--sometimes people have confessed to monks or nuns, and been absolved by a priest later.  So the act of confessing sins is something that I think should be encouraged and which I would witness for anyone in the situation described above.

I would not offer absolution though in all likelihood.  (Maybe to people from EO non-Old Calendarist Churches, it *might* be a possibility in some case, but again, this is assuming they would even be approaching me, which is not exactly likely).

Why would this be different than communion? Because with communion, I am responsible for whom I give communion to, and holy communion by its definition implies a "co- union."  But with confession, I am more of a witness of the person's repentance to Christ. I see this in a different category.  I could be wrong though.
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« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2009, 04:48:35 PM »

That is my view as well Fr. Anastasios-confession is seperate form absolution. But in the situation described above I think at least confessing would be a step in the right direction if I see my life coming to an end in the immediate future and no other priest is available. Absolution is important, but confession- even without absolution has value.
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« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2009, 05:44:10 PM »

Catholic only. I know that the other Apostolic Churches (EO, OO, or Assyrian) would not want to give me communion. NOthing wrong with that. Its their bliefe system.
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« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2009, 05:50:27 PM »

Catholic only. I know that the other Apostolic Churches (EO, OO, or Assyrian) would not want to give me communion. NOthing wrong with that. Its their bliefe system.
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« Reply #70 on: February 27, 2009, 09:56:53 AM »

I think that I agree with Fr. Anastasios, more important than getting a last communion would be the blessing and opportunity to do a last confession and have one last absolution granted by the mercy of God. I was uncertain however  would Fr. Anastasios be able to do that for a new calendarist or not?

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« Reply #71 on: February 27, 2009, 10:00:57 AM »

I voted for both...

non mainstream Orthodox (not-recognized autocephaly, old calendarists)

And...

Oriental Orthodox (if you are EO)/Eastern Orthodox (if you are OO)

But then, I consider them Orthodox, so I wouldn't see it as an act of betrayal or schism or seperation or whatever word you want to use. Smiley


I didn't realize it was about INDIVIDUAL CHOICE I was under the impression that the Church determines who is Orthodox, and who one can take communion from.......
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« Reply #72 on: February 27, 2009, 11:47:06 AM »

Catholic only. I know that the other Apostolic Churches (EO, OO, or Assyrian) would not want to give me communion. NOthing wrong with that. Its their bliefe system.

Actually you could get communion in the Assyrian Church with no problem at all and in fact one of their bishops participated in the consecration of his Eastern Catholic counterpart a few years back if memory serves me correctly.

The Armenians and Indians would give you communion as well in certain circumstances.
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« Reply #73 on: February 27, 2009, 05:01:54 PM »

I love it how so many people think that somehow being on the verge of death blurs the lines of right and wrong.

Exactly!

I seem to remember an entire empire converted to Christianity because the emperor converted and received the sacraments on his death bed. This is in retrospect of said emperor signing death warrants, persecution towards various religious bodies, etc. Isn't that a blurring of the lines between right and wrong? It was thought nothing of running an empire, converting to christianity on your death bed and being saved. Being on the verge of death does alot of things to a person's state of mind.

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« Reply #74 on: February 27, 2009, 05:09:18 PM »

St Constantine's conversion was a bit deeper and more protracted than a deathbed conversion.

Waiting till one's deathbed to be baptized though may have been seen as the most clear way to demonstrate his seriousness, because no good Roman would want to play games on his death bed.  A baptism earlier could have been seen as a dubious or political, but one on the deathbed would have been seen as really serious.
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« Reply #75 on: February 27, 2009, 05:31:23 PM »

St Constantine's conversion was a bit deeper and more protracted than a deathbed conversion.

Waiting till one's deathbed to be baptized though may have been seen as the most clear way to demonstrate his seriousness, because no good Roman would want to play games on his death bed.  A baptism earlier could have been seen as a dubious or political, but one on the deathbed would have been seen as really serious.

I agree with you that Constantine was a unique case, but by the same token, he wasn't the first emperor to do so.

-Nick
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« Reply #76 on: February 27, 2009, 05:57:33 PM »

But those were people that chose to convert on their deathbed. In this hypothetical situation you don't desire to convert, you just want to receive communion in whatever way you can.
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« Reply #77 on: March 09, 2009, 06:34:19 PM »

I'll skip this poll. I don't know whether to vote for non mainstream Orthodox and perhaps also for Oriental Orthodox or neither.
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« Reply #78 on: March 16, 2009, 01:03:51 PM »

I voted for "none".
I wouldn't want my last act on Earth to be an act of schism from my Church.

This would be my vote as well. The Eucharist is the realisation of the Church as the Body of Christ. To receive Communion from those outside the Church is to undermine both the Church and Her Head. It would be better to die without receiving at all.
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« Reply #79 on: April 24, 2009, 05:32:27 PM »

I would contact the hospital chaplain, and if he (or she) is a Christian, I would ask them to pray for me. And I would ask them to contact the nearest Orthodox priest so they could administer a proper Orthodox burial.
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« Reply #80 on: May 04, 2009, 04:18:32 PM »

MOVE TO PITTSBURGH---THE HOLY LAND FOR ORTHODOXY-(LOL)
There is an Orthodox church and priest every 2 blocks so you don't ever have to worry!  They take turns on "call" for hospitals. We will give yunz Pittburghese language lessons for free!
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« Reply #81 on: May 04, 2009, 04:31:56 PM »

Catholic only. I know that the other Apostolic Churches (EO, OO, or Assyrian) would not want to give me communion. NOthing wrong with that. Its their bliefe system.

Actually you could get communion in the Assyrian Church with no problem at all and in fact one of their bishops participated in the consecration of his Eastern Catholic counterpart a few years back if memory serves me correctly.

The Armenians and Indians would give you communion as well in certain circumstances.
Fantastic. Then if an Armenian or Indian Orthodox would offer me communion and no Catholic Priest could give it to me in time then I would take it from one of these Churches. I get a little nervous with the Assyrian Churches though.
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« Reply #82 on: August 03, 2010, 02:20:53 AM »

I voted for "none".
I wouldn't want my last act on Earth to be an act of schism from my Church.

Thanks to Salpy for indicating this thread.

I agree with Ozgeorge and would want my last act on earth, as far as possible, to be a statement of utter truth and clarity and an affirmation of all my past life in the Church.
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« Reply #83 on: June 02, 2011, 01:09:17 AM »

I guess what it boils down to is, if someone is about to die and they are just frantically trying to get communion, it might do them better to just confess their sins.
Would an Orthodox priest accept the confession of a dying Roman Catholic?
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« Reply #84 on: June 02, 2011, 02:27:56 AM »

I guess what it boils down to is, if someone is about to die and they are just frantically trying to get communion, it might do them better to just confess their sins.
Would an Orthodox priest accept the confession of a dying Roman Catholic?

Speaking for myself personally, I could not refuse to hear a dying man's confession and nor could I refuse to pray that God would forgive his sins and receive his soul into eternal life.   The question as to whether that prayer is "sacramental" properly belongs to God, whether He looked upon my prayer for forgiveness as something in the nature of a sacrament or not.
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« Reply #85 on: June 02, 2011, 03:06:54 AM »

However one Priest (EO) told me that maybe it wouldn't be so bad to take Holy Body and Blood of Christ from another Priest (he meant Catholic) personally I wouldn't know what to do because it'd be strange for me and propably I wouldn't take from any.

I thought you believed that there were no Sacraments outside the EOC?
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« Reply #86 on: June 02, 2011, 03:09:02 AM »

I wouldn't want my last act on Earth to be an act of schism from my Church.

Maybe not 'act of schism' but the very last opportunity to clean and enlighten your body and soul*, to destroy your sins, to get a support on the way to the eternal life with the Holy Body and Blood of Christ.

* my own-translated quotes from pre-Eucharist prayers

The Real Presence does not exist outside of the Church.
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« Reply #87 on: June 02, 2011, 03:10:42 AM »

If, hypothetically, I went through with becoming Oriental Orthodox, I would not take from any Protestant minister, nor "Catholic", nor "Eastern Orthodox", nor even any of the schismatic Oriental jurisdictions.
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« Reply #88 on: June 02, 2011, 03:11:50 AM »

I love it how so many people think that somehow being on the verge of death blurs the lines of right and wrong.

Indeed.
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« Reply #89 on: June 02, 2011, 03:12:26 AM »

I voted for both...

non mainstream Orthodox (not-recognized autocephaly, old calendarists)

And...

Oriental Orthodox (if you are EO)/Eastern Orthodox (if you are OO)

But then, I consider them Orthodox, so I wouldn't see it as an act of betrayal or schism or seperation or whatever word you want to use. Smiley

You don't regard the Old Calendarists or Non-Chalcedonians as schismatics?
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« Reply #90 on: June 02, 2011, 03:13:50 AM »

But would non-mainstream or OO allow you to partake is the question that is being left out.

Many OO jurisdictions would.
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« Reply #91 on: June 02, 2011, 03:21:45 AM »

Christ is present in the same way in the Catholic Eucharists as He is in the Orthodox one. He sanctify you, not the pope.

You seem to have done a 180 on this issue. See reply #9 in this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30972.0.html

You said that there are no Sacraments outside the Church.

[EDIT]: Oops, I just noticed that the post I am responding to is significantly older than the one I just referenced.

So then it would seem that you changed your mind towards realizing that the "Catholics" do not have the Eucharist?
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« Reply #92 on: June 02, 2011, 03:33:30 AM »

Catholic only. I know that the other Apostolic Churches (EO, OO, or Assyrian) would not want to give me communion. NOthing wrong with that. Its their bliefe system.
If you were unable to speak or move, I'd tell the Priest that you had requested Chrisimation.  Cheesy

LOL  laugh
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« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2011, 03:35:48 AM »

I get a little nervous with the Assyrian Churches though.

LOL. As well you should.
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« Reply #94 on: June 02, 2011, 03:37:15 AM »

I guess what it boils down to is, if someone is about to die and they are just frantically trying to get communion, it might do them better to just confess their sins.
Would an Orthodox priest accept the confession of a dying Roman Catholic?

Speaking for myself personally, I could not refuse to hear a dying man's confession and nor could I refuse to pray that God would forgive his sins and receive his soul into eternal life.   The question as to whether that prayer is "sacramental" properly belongs to God, whether He looked upon my prayer for forgiveness as something in the nature of a sacrament or not.

You know how Priests often hear the confessions of catechumens and bless them but do not absolve?

Which would you do in this case?
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« Reply #95 on: June 02, 2011, 03:46:50 AM »

I guess what it boils down to is, if someone is about to die and they are just frantically trying to get communion, it might do them better to just confess their sins.
Would an Orthodox priest accept the confession of a dying Roman Catholic?

Speaking for myself personally, I could not refuse to hear a dying man's confession and nor could I refuse to pray that God would forgive his sins and receive his soul into eternal life.   The question as to whether that prayer is "sacramental" properly belongs to God, whether He looked upon my prayer for forgiveness as something in the nature of a sacrament or not.

You know how Priests often hear the confessions of catechumens and bless them but do not absolve?

Which would you do in this case?

The same.  I would hear the confession of a catechumen who asked, pray to God for forgiveness, without an epitrakhil.
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« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2011, 04:01:26 AM »

I guess what it boils down to is, if someone is about to die and they are just frantically trying to get communion, it might do them better to just confess their sins.
Would an Orthodox priest accept the confession of a dying Roman Catholic?

Speaking for myself personally, I could not refuse to hear a dying man's confession and nor could I refuse to pray that God would forgive his sins and receive his soul into eternal life.   The question as to whether that prayer is "sacramental" properly belongs to God, whether He looked upon my prayer for forgiveness as something in the nature of a sacrament or not.

You know how Priests often hear the confessions of catechumens and bless them but do not absolve?

Which would you do in this case?

The same.  I would hear the confession of a catechumen who asked, pray to God for forgiveness, without an epitrakhil.

Ah. That sounds wise. Thanks.
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« Reply #97 on: June 02, 2011, 07:26:05 AM »

It's a two-year-old thread. People change, you know...
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« Reply #98 on: June 02, 2011, 03:44:15 PM »

It's a two-year-old thread. People change, you know...

Yep. Like I said, I didn't realize how old it was until that edited segment.
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« Reply #99 on: June 02, 2011, 06:05:16 PM »

Catholic only. I know that the other Apostolic Churches (EO, OO, or Assyrian) would not want to give me communion. NOthing wrong with that. Its their bliefe system.

Actually you could get communion in the Assyrian Church with no problem at all and in fact one of their bishops participated in the consecration of his Eastern Catholic counterpart a few years back if memory serves me correctly.

The Armenians and Indians would give you communion as well in certain circumstances.
Fantastic. Then if an Armenian or Indian Orthodox would offer me communion and no Catholic Priest could give it to me in time then I would take it from one of these Churches. I get a little nervous with the Assyrian Churches though.

I understand that you are in communion, through the Chaldean Catholic Church.  The Vatican has approved intercommunion.
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