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Author Topic: St. Seraphim of Sarov (Catholic view of post-schism Orthodox Saints)  (Read 8884 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 19, 2009, 03:53:44 PM »

Does anyone know if there is a record of St. Seraphim converting Catholics to Eastern Orthodoxy or of this same saint speaking against Catholicism?

Edited title to allow for deeply intertwined discussion on the RCC's view/opinion of post-schism Orthodox Saints too.

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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2009, 10:12:13 PM »

Does anyone know if there is a record of St. Seraphim converting Catholics to Eastern Orthodoxy or of this same saint speaking against Catholicism?

I cannot think of anything overtly anti-Catholic but he does tell Motovilov that the experience of the Uncreated Light which he had shared with him is something that is not possible for the non-Orthodox.
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2009, 10:31:44 PM »

St. Seraphim is commemorated as a Saint at least by some Roman Catholics. The source of information are the nuns of the convent in Diveevo, where St. Seraphim relics are located. One of the nuns stated that Roman Catholics from Western Europe during their visit to Diveevo, showed here the published list of Saints, which to her surprise included St. Seraphim of Sarov.

Based on this, it seems possible to infer that those individuals, who included the name of St. Seraphim into the aforementioned list, came to the conclusion that nothing anti-Catholic has been involved.

However, one thing is aggressive anti-Catholic statements and another one is a peaceful missionary work. Some Orthodox Hierarchs made a lot of efforts in Ecumenical contacts with Catholics and participated in convertion of Catholics to Orthodoxy, or / and ordained former Catholics to Orthodox Holy Orders.

Looking back at the life of St. Seraphim, it becomes easy to notice that his speeches were always friendly and charitable, not aggressive. He would not attack other Christians for their beliefs.
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« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2009, 11:30:09 PM »

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St. Seraphim is commemorated as a Saint at least by some Roman Catholics

Roman Catholics, or Byzantine Catholics?
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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2009, 11:35:28 PM »

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St. Seraphim is commemorated as a Saint at least by some Roman Catholics

Roman Catholics, or Byzantine Catholics?

Both.  I have seen him commemorated in several (though not many) Latin-rite parishes, and the late Pope John Paul II even referred to him as St. Seraphim of Sarov publically.
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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2009, 11:43:43 PM »

Both.  I have seen him commemorated in several (though not many) Latin-rite parishes, and the late Pope John Paul II even referred to him as St. Seraphim of Sarov publically.

Interesting. Though the late Pope's referring to him as "Saint Seraphim" may be little more than a courtesy, in much the same way as an Orthodox believer would refer to a post-schism Roman Catholic saint as "St XXX", in full recognition that that person is not recognised as a saint of the Orthodox Church. I would be more impressed if St Seraphim were listed in the RC equivalent of the Menaion. It seems that this is not the case, rather perhaps a case of St Seraphim being "flavour of the month". "Eastern spirituality" hs become quite popular in the west in recent years.
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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2009, 12:27:06 AM »

St. Sergius of Radonezh was officially added to the Roman Calendar.

25  Firminus, bp., m.; Cadoc, abt.; Aunacharius or Aunaire, bp.; Finbar, bp.; Coelfrid, abt.; Albert of Jerusalem, bp.; Sergius of Radonezh, abt.; Vincent Strambi, bp.

http://www.therealpresence.org/dictionary/calendar.htm

St. Gregory Palamas was included in the Greek Anthologion published by Rome.  Russian Catholics use the same calendar as the Russian Orthodox.
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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2009, 12:46:58 AM »

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Russian Catholics use the same calendar as the Russian Orthodox.

Do Russian Catholics venerate post-schism saints? Calendar and Menaion are not interchangeable.
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2009, 12:54:32 AM »

Also found all these other Russian saints added to the Roman calendar:

28  PETER CHANEL, pr., m. (OPT MEM)
Vitalis, m.
Valeria, m.; Pollio, m.; Theodora and Didymus, m.; Cronan of Roscrea, abt.; Pamphilus of Sulmona, bp.; Cyril of Turov, bp.; Louis Mary of Montfort.

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Torquatus and Companions, m.; Isidore of Chios; Hilary of Galeata, abt.; Dympna and Gerebernus, m.; Bertha and Rupert; Hallvard, m.; Isaias of Rostov, bp.; Peter of Lampsacus and Companions, m.

23  Desiderius or Didier, bp., m.; Guibert; Leonitus of Rostov, bp., m.; Ivo of Chartres, bp.; Euphrosyne of Polotsk, v.; William of Rochester, m.; John Baptist Rossi.

24  Donatian and Rogatian, m.; Vincent of Lérins; David I, King of Scotland; Nicetas of Pereaslav, m.

28  Senator, bp.; Justus of Urgel, bp.; Germanus or Germain, bp.; William of Gellone; Bernard of Menthon or Montjoux; Ignatius of Rostov, bp.

28  IRENAEUS, bp., m. (MEM)
Plutarch, Potamiaena and Companions, m.; Paul I, p.; Heimrad; Sergius and Germanus of Valaam, abt.; John Southworth, pr., m.

21  PIUS X, p. (MEM)
Luxorius, Cisellus and Camerinus, m.; Bonosus and Maximian, m.; Sidonius Apollinaris, bp.; Abraham of Smolensk, abt.

21  MATTHEW, APOSTLE AND EVANGELIST (FEAST)
Maura of Troyes, v.; Michael of Chernigov and Theodore, m.

29  Narcissus of Jerusalem, bp.; Theuderius or Chef, abt.; Colman of Kilmacduagh, bp.; Abraham of Rostov, abt .

6  Leonard of Noblac; Melaine, bp.; Illtud or Illtyd, abt.; Winnoc, abt.; Demetrian, bp.; Barlaam of Khutyn, abt.  
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2009, 12:56:30 AM »

Does anyone know if there is a record of St. Seraphim converting Catholics to Eastern Orthodoxy or of this same saint speaking against Catholicism?

I cannot think of anything overtly anti-Catholic but he does tell Motovilov that the experience of the Uncreated Light which he had shared with him is something that is not possible for the non-Orthodox.

I remember reading, in an Orthodox publication, about Evelyn Underhill (an Anglican mystic who was interested in Eastern Orthodoxy) experiencing the Uncreated Light. Perhaps someone else can fill in the details?
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2009, 01:03:08 AM »

Does anyone know if there is a record of St. Seraphim converting Catholics to Eastern Orthodoxy or of this same saint speaking against Catholicism?

I cannot think of anything overtly anti-Catholic but he does tell Motovilov that the experience of the Uncreated Light which he had shared with him is something that is not possible for the non-Orthodox.

I remember reading, in an Orthodox publication, about Evelyn Underhill (an Anglican mystic who was interested in Eastern Orthodoxy) experiencing the Uncreated Light. Perhaps someone else can fill in the details?
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« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2009, 01:03:46 AM »

Quote
Russian Catholics use the same calendar as the Russian Orthodox.

Do Russian Catholics venerate post-schism saints? Calendar and Menaion are not interchangeable.

Yes, to my knowledge every saint in the Russian books at the time Rome reprinted them in the 40s through the 50s and I would not be surprised if they venerated recently glorified ones as well.  The Russian Catholic parishes in the US use OCA materials.
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« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2009, 01:09:31 AM »

Yes, to my knowledge every saint in the Russian books at the time Rome reprinted them in the 40s through the 50s and I would not be surprised if they venerated recently glorified ones as well.  The Russian Catholic parishes in the US use OCA materials.

That would make life interesting. It would not be at all difficult to come up with even a short list of post-schism Orthodox saints whose lives and pronouncements were inimicable to Roman Catholicism. St John of Shanghai and San Francisco, and St Mark of Ephesus immediately come to mind.
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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2009, 01:11:22 AM »

Does anyone know if there is a record of St. Seraphim converting Catholics to Eastern Orthodoxy or of this same saint speaking against Catholicism?

I cannot think of anything overtly anti-Catholic but he does tell Motovilov that the experience of the Uncreated Light which he had shared with him is something that is not possible for the non-Orthodox.

I remember reading, in an Orthodox publication, about Evelyn Underhill (an Anglican mystic who was interested in Eastern Orthodoxy) experiencing the Uncreated Light. Perhaps someone else can fill in the details?

From Ware, The Orthodox Church:

But even in this present life some saints have experienced the first fruits of this visible and bodily glorification. Saint Seraphim is the best known, but by no means the only instance of this. When Arsenius the Great was praying, his disciples saw him ‘just like a fire’ (Apophthegmata, P.G. 65, Arsenius 27); and of another Desert Father it is recorded: ‘Just as Moses received the image of the glory of Adam, when his face was glorified, so the face of Abba Pambo shone like lightning, and he was as a king seated on his throne’ (Apophthegmata (P.G. 65), Pambo 12. Compare Apophthegmata, Sisoes 14 and Silouanus 12. Epiphanius, in his Life of Sergius of Radonezh, states that the saint’s body shone with glory after death. It is sometimes said, and with a certain truth, that bodily transfiguration by divine light corresponds, among Orthodox saints, to the receiving of the stigmata among western saints. We must not, however, draw too absolute a contrast in this matter. Instances of bodily glorification are found in the west, for example, in the case of an Englishwoman, Evelyn Underhill (1875-1941): a friend records how on one occasion her face could be seen transfigured with light (the whole account recalls Saint Seraphim: see The Letters of Evelyn Underhill, edited by Charles Williams, London, 1943, p. 37).
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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2009, 01:15:27 AM »

I would imagine the more problematic post-Florence saints may be quietly ignored without disparaging their personal sanctity.
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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2009, 01:24:09 AM »

Does anyone know if there is a record of St. Seraphim converting Catholics to Eastern Orthodoxy or of this same saint speaking against Catholicism?

I cannot think of anything overtly anti-Catholic but he does tell Motovilov that the experience of the Uncreated Light which he had shared with him is something that is not possible for the non-Orthodox.

I remember reading, in an Orthodox publication, about Evelyn Underhill (an Anglican mystic who was interested in Eastern Orthodoxy) experiencing the Uncreated Light. Perhaps someone else can fill in the details?

From Ware, The Orthodox Church:

But even in this present life some saints have experienced the first fruits of this visible and bodily glorification. Saint Seraphim is the best known, but by no means the only instance of this. When Arsenius the Great was praying, his disciples saw him ‘just like a fire’ (Apophthegmata, P.G. 65, Arsenius 27); and of another Desert Father it is recorded: ‘Just as Moses received the image of the glory of Adam, when his face was glorified, so the face of Abba Pambo shone like lightning, and he was as a king seated on his throne’ (Apophthegmata (P.G. 65), Pambo 12. Compare Apophthegmata, Sisoes 14 and Silouanus 12. Epiphanius, in his Life of Sergius of Radonezh, states that the saint’s body shone with glory after death. It is sometimes said, and with a certain truth, that bodily transfiguration by divine light corresponds, among Orthodox saints, to the receiving of the stigmata among western saints. We must not, however, draw too absolute a contrast in this matter. Instances of bodily glorification are found in the west, for example, in the case of an Englishwoman, Evelyn Underhill (1875-1941): a friend records how on one occasion her face could be seen transfigured with light (the whole account recalls Saint Seraphim: see The Letters of Evelyn Underhill, edited by Charles Williams, London, 1943, p. 37).

Thanks Jetavan. I wondered if that was where I read it.

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« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2009, 01:30:06 AM »

I would imagine the more problematic post-Florence saints may be quietly ignored without disparaging their personal sanctity.

Forgive me, but if, as you say, the Russian Catholic church "recognises" all post-schism saints, how then is it proper to suggest that "the more problematic post-Florence saints may be quietly ignored without disparaging their personal sanctity"? This is a mockery and a disgrace. The Russian Catholic church can't have it both ways.
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« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2009, 01:33:57 AM »

[From Ware, The Orthodox Church:

But even in this present life some saints have experienced the first fruits of this visible and bodily glorification. Saint Seraphim is the best known, but by no means the only instance of this. When Arsenius the Great was praying, his disciples saw him ‘just like a fire’ (Apophthegmata, P.G. 65, Arsenius 27); and of another Desert Father it is recorded: ‘Just as Moses received the image of the glory of Adam, when his face was glorified, so the face of Abba Pambo shone like lightning, and he was as a king seated on his throne’ (Apophthegmata (P.G. 65), Pambo 12. Compare Apophthegmata, Sisoes 14 and Silouanus 12. Epiphanius, in his Life of Sergius of Radonezh, states that the saint’s body shone with glory after death. It is sometimes said, and with a certain truth, that bodily transfiguration by divine light corresponds, among Orthodox saints, to the receiving of the stigmata among western saints. We must not, however, draw too absolute a contrast in this matter. Instances of bodily glorification are found in the west, for example, in the case of an Englishwoman, Evelyn Underhill (1875-1941): a friend records how on one occasion her face could be seen transfigured with light (the whole account recalls Saint Seraphim: see The Letters of Evelyn Underhill, edited by Charles Williams, London, 1943, p. 37).

That is quite interesting.  In line with Saint Seraphim I would not have thought that such things are accessible to those who have never experienced the Divine Mysteries, especially those of Chrismation as well as the reception of the life-giving Mysteries of the Body and Blood of Christ.

But then we also know of both Buddhists and Hindu ascetics known to shine with light.

What do we make of such things outside the Church?
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« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2009, 01:35:37 AM »

I would imagine the more problematic post-Florence saints may be quietly ignored without disparaging their personal sanctity.

Forgive me, but if, as you say, the Russian Catholic church "recognises" all post-schism saints, how then is it proper to suggest that "the more problematic post-Florence saints may be quietly ignored without disparaging their personal sanctity"? This is a mockery and a disgrace. The Russian Catholic church can't have it both ways.


What would the Russian Catholics do with a man like the Pillar of Orthodoxy, St. Mark of Ephesus in regards to a calender or veneration?
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« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2009, 01:49:44 AM »

What would the Russian Catholics do with a man like the Pillar of Orthodoxy, St. Mark of Ephesus in regards to a calender or veneration?

Precisely my point, username.
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« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2009, 07:03:06 AM »

[From Ware, The Orthodox Church:

But even in this present life some saints have experienced the first fruits of this visible and bodily glorification. Saint Seraphim is the best known, but by no means the only instance of this. When Arsenius the Great was praying, his disciples saw him ‘just like a fire’ (Apophthegmata, P.G. 65, Arsenius 27); and of another Desert Father it is recorded: ‘Just as Moses received the image of the glory of Adam, when his face was glorified, so the face of Abba Pambo shone like lightning, and he was as a king seated on his throne’ (Apophthegmata (P.G. 65), Pambo 12. Compare Apophthegmata, Sisoes 14 and Silouanus 12. Epiphanius, in his Life of Sergius of Radonezh, states that the saint’s body shone with glory after death. It is sometimes said, and with a certain truth, that bodily transfiguration by divine light corresponds, among Orthodox saints, to the receiving of the stigmata among western saints. We must not, however, draw too absolute a contrast in this matter. Instances of bodily glorification are found in the west, for example, in the case of an Englishwoman, Evelyn Underhill (1875-1941): a friend records how on one occasion her face could be seen transfigured with light (the whole account recalls Saint Seraphim: see The Letters of Evelyn Underhill, edited by Charles Williams, London, 1943, p. 37).

That is quite interesting.  In line with Saint Seraphim I would not have thought that such things are accessible to those who have never experienced the Divine Mysteries, especially those of Chrismation as well as the reception of the life-giving Mysteries of the Body and Blood of Christ.

But then we also know of both Buddhists and Hindu ascetics known to shine with light.

What do we make of such things outside the Church?

As Evelyn Underhill was a devout Christian, I wouldn't doubt that she experienced the Uncreated Light.  I might not know for sure, but I see no reason to doubt because she wasn't a member of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2009, 12:58:35 PM »

[From Ware, The Orthodox Church:

But even in this present life some saints have experienced the first fruits of this visible and bodily glorification. Saint Seraphim is the best known, but by no means the only instance of this. When Arsenius the Great was praying, his disciples saw him ‘just like a fire’ (Apophthegmata, P.G. 65, Arsenius 27); and of another Desert Father it is recorded: ‘Just as Moses received the image of the glory of Adam, when his face was glorified, so the face of Abba Pambo shone like lightning, and he was as a king seated on his throne’ (Apophthegmata (P.G. 65), Pambo 12. Compare Apophthegmata, Sisoes 14 and Silouanus 12. Epiphanius, in his Life of Sergius of Radonezh, states that the saint’s body shone with glory after death. It is sometimes said, and with a certain truth, that bodily transfiguration by divine light corresponds, among Orthodox saints, to the receiving of the stigmata among western saints. We must not, however, draw too absolute a contrast in this matter. Instances of bodily glorification are found in the west, for example, in the case of an Englishwoman, Evelyn Underhill (1875-1941): a friend records how on one occasion her face could be seen transfigured with light (the whole account recalls Saint Seraphim: see The Letters of Evelyn Underhill, edited by Charles Williams, London, 1943, p. 37).

That is quite interesting.  In line with Saint Seraphim I would not have thought that such things are accessible to those who have never experienced the Divine Mysteries, especially those of Chrismation as well as the reception of the life-giving Mysteries of the Body and Blood of Christ.

But then we also know of both Buddhists and Hindu ascetics known to shine with light.

What do we make of such things outside the Church?

Veronica Hughes talks about her experiences as a Hindu and Buddhist, among other things. She implies that non-Orthodox/non-Christian light experiences would be a "look-a-like" experience (to put it in a generous way; ungenerously, she would consider it to be of diabolical origin) of the real Uncreated Light. (Kevin Allen's link.)

Quote
Veronica Hughes was a 20-year seeker, practitioner and teacher of hatha yoga, EST, Hinduism, occult, metaphysics, psychic healing, out of body travel, spirit channeling, Tibetan Buddhism and Theosophy before re-discovering her childhood faith in Christ in the Orthodox Church. She and host Kevin Allen discuss her search for personal transformation and what led her to eastern Christianity.

I suppose diabolicalism is one way to think about similar experiences in non-Orthodox/non-Christian traditions. But I doubt that that is the only way to think about them.
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« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2009, 01:38:12 PM »

I am interested in this topic becaue I know that my old Byzantine parish had a book store that sold icons. One icon was that of St. Seraphim of Serov.
Furthermore, a good Franciscan priest I know, (btw, who is ill and in need of prayers) venerates Seraphim of Serov and even has a relic of this saint.
However, If St. Serphim drew people away from the Catholic Church, it would be hard for me to understand how he can be venerated by Catholics.
I also had the same struggle with Gregory Palamas, (who's personal sanctity is well attested) because he seemed to be decidedly anti-Catholic. Perhaps Deacon Lance can explain how men like this can be venerated in the Catholic Church when they disapproved with commuinon with the Catholic Church.
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« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2009, 08:04:11 PM »

I know that Patriarch Photios of Constantinople is venerated in the Byzantine Catholic calendar.
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« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2009, 08:14:28 PM »

I would imagine the more problematic post-Florence saints may be quietly ignored without disparaging their personal sanctity.

Forgive me, but if, as you say, the Russian Catholic church "recognises" all post-schism saints, how then is it proper to suggest that "the more problematic post-Florence saints may be quietly ignored without disparaging their personal sanctity"? This is a mockery and a disgrace. The Russian Catholic church can't have it both ways.


A mockery and disgrace?  You act as if every Orthodox parish celebrates every post-schism saint with a vigil.  Other than St. Gregory Palamas, who has a Sunday commemoration and whose venration is approved anyway, I can't see it would be much of an issue as the Russian parishes are small and tend to have only Sat Vespers/Sun Liturgy.  It may be perhaps they do honor them, I don't know for sure, I'll try to find out though. 

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« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2009, 08:23:58 PM »

I am interested in this topic becaue I know that my old Byzantine parish had a book store that sold icons. One icon was that of St. Seraphim of Serov.
Furthermore, a good Franciscan priest I know, (btw, who is ill and in need of prayers) venerates Seraphim of Serov and even has a relic of this saint.
However, If St. Serphim drew people away from the Catholic Church, it would be hard for me to understand how he can be venerated by Catholics.
I also had the same struggle with Gregory Palamas, (who's personal sanctity is well attested) because he seemed to be decidedly anti-Catholic. Perhaps Deacon Lance can explain how men like this can be venerated in the Catholic Church when they disapproved with commuinon with the Catholic Church.

This is part of the tension of being Eastern Catholic.  How do we reconcile an apparent contradiciton?  Can we blame St. Mark of Ephesus for refusing union given the way the Greeks were treated there?  The Eastern position was not given a fair hearing.  He did what he thought was right.  The Latin Catholic Church honors some of its own whose theology can be considered in error.  If a person's holiness is attested and miralces occur through their intercession who are we to refuse to recognize the obvious, i.e. schism does extend to heaven.  I am glad the Catholic Church has gotten past its prejudices and can recognize the obvious sanctity of the saints of the Orthodox Church, despite any disagrrements we have with their eccelsiology/theology.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2009, 10:11:07 PM »

The Latin Catholic Church honors some of its own whose theology can be considered in error.  If a person's holiness is attested and miralces occur through their intercession who are we to refuse to recognize the obvious, i.e. schism does extend to heaven.  I am glad the Catholic Church has gotten past its prejudices and can recognize the obvious sanctity of the saints of the Orthodox Church, despite any disagrrements we have with their eccelsiology/theology.


Then again, the Catholic view of Orthodoxy is “We’re okay, you’re okay.”
Whereas the Orthodox view of Catholicism is “We’re okay… and it would be really nice if you would choose to be okay too!”  Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2009, 11:20:42 PM »

I did not explore the East because of it's saints, it was due to the liturgical practices and spirituality...
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« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2009, 04:06:33 AM »

A mockery and disgrace?  You act as if every Orthodox parish celebrates every post-schism saint with a vigil. 

Umm, Deacon Lance, you've lost me. Were you perhaps trying to say "You act as if every Russian Catholic parish celebrates every post-schism saint with a vigil." ?
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« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2009, 09:39:18 AM »

to Deacon Lance: please do not call St. Venerable Euphrosyne of Polotsk the Enlightener of Belarus and St. Cyril of Turov Belarusian Goldenmouth Russian Saints.
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« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2009, 11:05:06 AM »

A mockery and disgrace?  You act as if every Orthodox parish celebrates every post-schism saint with a vigil. 

Umm, Deacon Lance, you've lost me. Were you perhaps trying to say "You act as if every Russian Catholic parish celebrates every post-schism saint with a vigil." ?

No, it was right the first time.  You claimed it was a mockery and disgrace if Russian Catholics ignored some particularly anti-Latin saints.  My point was many/most are not feasted saints even among the Orthodox.  Given that the Russian parishes tend to be small and only have Liturgy on Sunday it would not be much of an issue.

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« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2009, 11:06:12 AM »

to Deacon Lance: please do not call St. Venerable Euphrosyne of Polotsk the Enlightener of Belarus and St. Cyril of Turov Belarusian Goldenmouth Russian Saints.

No offense intended, I was not aware they were Belarusian.

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« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2009, 11:26:38 AM »

I'm probably diving in at the wrong place but here goes.

What do we orthodox make of some RC saints? The reason I ask is because I'm reading a book, written by a Carthusian monk, about St Therese of Lisieux who died over a century ago.

When I was young I thought she was soppy but on reading the account by the monk it appears she gives some real encouragement in our struggle to live the Life.

There are more obvious saints such as Francis of Assisi.

Can we take them as such (saints) or look for objections to their supposed sanctity? In Britain some catholics were horribly done to death rather than deny their faith during the 16th and 17th centuries. Quite an inspiration.

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« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2009, 07:46:17 PM »

Does anyone know if there is a record of St. Seraphim converting Catholics to Eastern Orthodoxy or of this same saint speaking against Catholicism?


Quote
St. Seraphim of Sarov is invariably quoted out of context in order to minimize his emphasis on the necessity to belong to the Orthodox Church to have a true spiritual life.  In the conversation of St. Seraphim with the layman Motovilov on the acquisition of the Holy Spirit, this great Saint tells us:

“The grace of the Holy Spirit which was given to us all, the faithful of Christ, in the Sacrament of Holy Baptism, is sealed by the Sacrament of Chrismation on the chief parts of the body, as appointed by the Holy Church, the eternal keeper of this grace.”

And again:

“The Lord listens equally to the monk and the simple Christian layman, provided that both are Orthodox.”

(Many non-Orthodox use these quotes without the parts here italicized.)

-Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, by Fr. Seraphim Rose
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« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2009, 10:27:51 PM »


I suppose diabolicalism is one way to think about similar experiences in non-Orthodox/non-Christian traditions. But I doubt that that is the only way to think about them.

IMHO:

Temptation may be experienced in Christianity, in particular in Orthodox Christianity. In some cases, temptation may be simply false reports.

Overall, the border line of potential validity comes between Christian and non-Christian experiences.
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« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2009, 10:44:36 PM »

The Orthodox Church kept the Truth. However, the sincere faith and the sincere prayers of non-Orthodox Christians to our Redeemer will not be ignored by Him.


“The Lord listens equally to the monk and the simple Christian layman, provided that both are Orthodox.”

(

But it does not mean that the Lord does not listen to Catholics.

St. Philaret (Drozdov) said that partitions between Christians do not go up to Heaven. And he also was personally involved in convertion of non-Orthodox Christians to Orthodoxy. Such great modern Hierarchs of blessed memory as His Eminence Metropolitan Anthony (Blum) and His Eminence Archbishop Anthony (Maidansky) participated in both Ecumenical and missionary activities. Furthermore, they both performed ordinations of converts from other traditions of Christianity to Orthodox Deaconate and Priesthood.

However, when comeone prays not to God (okay, means not to God and His Saints) how that person can be listened?
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« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2009, 11:43:31 PM »

^ And St. Cornelius was not even a Christian when an Angel of God told him: “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God." (Acts 10:4)
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« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2009, 07:09:01 AM »

. Such great modern Hierarchs of blessed memory as His Eminence Metropolitan Anthony (Blum) and His Eminence Archbishop Anthony (Maidansky) participated in both Ecumenical and missionary activities.

Metropolitan Anthony Bloom:   "It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in extinguishing Orthodoxy. Theological encounters and 'accords'
on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley, for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."

This is from a 1997 report by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of Sourozh (may he rest in peace) to the Patriarch and Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox
Church. 

It is all the more worthy of attention in that he actively participated for decades in the ecumenical dialogue between the Orthodox and
Catholics.

The reference for this is:  SOUROZH (diocesan magazine of the Russian Diocese of Great Britain), 69 (August 1997), 17-22.
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« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2009, 09:01:51 PM »

^ And St. Cornelius was not even a Christian when an Angel of God told him: “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God." (Acts 10:4)


Can the first gentile convert to the Church of Christ in the first half of the first century really be compared to millions of people today who know about the true Church of Christ but would rather remain in their comfortable pseudo-Christian denominations?  After all, God heard the prayers of Cornelius because God knew he would accept the true Church when it came to him.
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« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2009, 09:03:04 PM »

Metropolitan Anthony Bloom:   "It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in extinguishing Orthodoxy. Theological encounters and 'accords'
on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley, for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."


Way to tell it like it is!
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« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2009, 09:05:49 PM »

Quote
In an age of almost universal darkness and deception, when for most “Christians” Christ has become precisely what Orthodox teaching means by antichrist, the Orthodox Church of Christ alone possesses and communicates the grace of God.  This is a priceless treasure, the very existence of which is not so much as suspected even by the “Christian” world.  The “Christian” world, indeed, joins hands with the forces of darkness in order to seduce the faithful of the Church of Christ, blindly trusting that the “name of Jesus” will save them even in their apostasy and blasphemy, mindless of the fearful warning of the Lord:
Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? And in Thy name have cast our devils? And in Thy name done many wonderful works?  And then will I profess unto them: I never knew you, depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.
(Matthew 7:22-23)

St. Paul continues this warning about the coming of antichrist with this command:
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
(II Thessalonians 2:15)

There are some that trouble you, and would pervert the Gospel of Christ.  But though we, or an angel form heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be anathema.  As we said before, so say I now again: If any preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be anathema.
(Galatians 1:8-9)

The Orthodox answer to ever new “revival” [/denomination, religion], and even to the final terrible “revival” of antichrist, is this Gospel of Christ, which the Orthodox Church alone has preserved unchanged in an unbroken line from Christ and His Apostles, and the grace of the Holy Spirit which the Orthodox Church alone communicates, and only to her faithful children, who have received in Christmation, and kept, the true seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Amen.

-Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, by Fr. Seraphim Rose

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« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2009, 09:13:55 PM »

Okay, we are getting way off-topic here.  If your post is not referring specifically to St. Seraphim of Sarov or concerning how Roman Catholics view post-schism Orthodox Saints, then please start up a new thread.  Any further off-topic posts will be split off.

Thank you.

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« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2009, 11:02:54 PM »

Correction of (2) typos:

Such great modern Hierarchs of blessed memory as His Eminence Metropolitan Anthony (Blum) and His Eminence Archbishop Anthony (Maidansky)

Instead it should say:
Such great modern Hierarchs of blessed memory as His Eminence Metropolitan Anthony (Bloom) and His Eminence Archbishop Vsevolod (Maidansky).

Sorry, it has been written on a long day.

Of course, I stand by my previous comments.
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« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2009, 12:07:22 AM »

Quote
In an age of almost universal darkness and deception, when for most “Christians” Christ has become precisely what Orthodox teaching means by antichrist

Quote

 The “Christian” world, indeed, joins hands with the forces of darkness

It shows to which extent Hieromonk Seraphim Rose was exremely disrespectful to non-Orthodox Christians. Hieromonk Seraphim Rose had no right to make insults like these. Christians needs to be examples of respect, friendliness and  sympathy, let alone the minimal necessary political correctness.

From a personal point of view, if I was a practicing non-Orthodox Christian with an interest in Orthodoxy and I would run into stuff like this, my interest would evaporate for at least several years.

Can the first gentile convert to the Church of Christ in the first half of the first century really be compared to millions of people today who know about the true Church of Christ but would rather remain in their comfortable pseudo-Christian denominations?  After all, God heard the prayers of Cornelius because God knew he would accept the true Church when it came to him.

Seraphim,
Actually, it is the other way around, my friend. The first gentile convert and now one of the greatest Saints, was not a convert yet. If Lord listened to him, then, of course, our Redeemer will listen to millions of Christians in various Christian denominations. As Fr. Philip Parfenov wrote in his blog yesterday: "Everything was can be saved, will be saved".

Actually, many people do not even know what Orthodoxy is all about. While Orthodox Church possesses the entire Truth, our Lord will grant awards to every glass of water, offered to thirsty ones and to every opening of a door in front of a neighbor. Having observed the growth of militant secularism and non-Christian religions, we cannot just say that majority of people decided to ignore the Truth.

It would not be a contribution to my salvation to abandon Orthodoxy tomorrow, but when a non-Christian becomes Christian, that action only benefits.

Orthodox mission should be active and persistent, but also humble and friendly.
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« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2009, 02:25:29 AM »

From a personal point of view


Exactly
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