Spanking - Yea or Nay?

[yeshuaisiam]

Each child is different, unique and therefore requiring their own style of being parented.  Anyone with more than one child can attest to this.  Some children need regular spankings, some rarely, other never.  It isn't all in who the parent is as much as who the child is.  I have one child which if I need to spank, I feel odd because its so rare an event.  I have another child which spanking was once a regular occurance.  As they grow, they learn and adapt, which hopefully lessens the requirement of spanking.  From personal experience, at a certain age, spanking is useless and a punch in the mouth is required.  In other words, when I was 17, I learned I wasn't big enough to curse at my father.  It only took one lesson.  I still don't curse at my father.

Each child is unique and to disregard spanking at a potential discipline severely limits your parenting options.  Be prepared if you need to, hope you never do.

Kerdy, how many children do you have?

As I've stated, my wife and I have 5 children. 
I was raised with 4 siblings.

All of my children, myself, and my siblings were spanked.

We all have a tight family still, I respect my parents, all the siblings talk with one another.  Spanking did not harm us.  I am not bitter over any of the numerous spankings I received (with and without a belt, paddle, spoon). 

Proverbs, 13:24. "He that spareth his rod hateth his son:

Let's go literal - If you hate your son, you spare the rod.

So what do you do if you do not hate your son?  You do not spare the rod.

"but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

The definition of Chastise by merriam webster dictionary is:
 1: to inflict punishment on (as by whipping)

There you have it.
If you believe in the books of the bible, if you believe in this wisdom, there is no more argument.

Without any means of boast, we are constantly given compliments on our children's behavior.  They do not fear me.  They do not fear my wife either.   They do not directly defy us either or they know they'll get a spanking.  Yes, they make mistakes, and for that we correct them vocally.  But in defiance, or directly not following what they are told to do, yes they get a spanking.

The oddest thing about the entire situation is 15 minutes after they get it, they are very well behaved and already having fun with their siblings & animals.  Me.... Trust me, it hurts me a lot worse than them.  No parent enjoys this chastisement.   But it is necessary.   We see the evidence of spoiled embittered youth all around us, mainly from parents who do not SPANK their child.   (I put SPANK in caps because some parents just pat on the hind end and say "no".... That's not spanking.)

I once heard a mentor of mine say:
"A spanking is a little pain now to save a lot of pain later".

You realize I advocate for spanking, yes?

I apologize, my mistake.

I was distracted at the start of the post.  Looked over hit quote, and didn't realize it scrolled down.
Just read the name and posted to you.  It was for somebody else.

[yeshuaisiam]

Anyway, I believe the scriptures teach us to chastise our children.   

I don't think anybody here would doubt that as spankings have dwindled out of our society, the morality has declined.  (of course other things contributed).   

[JamesR]

Old school parents suck because they make a ton of rules that ultimately drive their children to rebel and disobey them, while modern parents suck because they don't give their children any rules or guidance.

[Kerdy]

Old school parents suck because they make a ton of rules that ultimately drive their children to rebel and disobey them, while modern parents suck because they don't give their children any rules or guidance.

So, what you are saying is, "Parents suck!"  Right?

[Punch]

Old school parents suck because they make a ton of rules that ultimately drive their children to rebel and disobey them, while modern parents suck because they don't give their children any rules or guidance.

Stiking a balance between the two is very difficult without God.  The scriptures show us that God is both merciful and just.  The problem is that too many people are too small minded to be able to understand both concepts at once.   

[Punch]

Another good analogy is between Jesus driving out the moneylenders and animals and his common driving out of demons.

On a sidenote, the Evangelist Matthew used the same word to describe Jesus cleansing the temple as he used to describe Jesus exorcising demons: "And Jesus went into the temple of God and cast out (ἐξέβαλεν) all them that sold and bought in the temple and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of them that sold doves". (Matthew 21:12)

"When the even was come they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils and he cast out (ἐξέβαλεν) the spirits with his word and healed all that were sick" (Matthew 8:16)

Someone really had to have... a disregard for most commentaries on the topic to come up with that load.

And Punch, if I have opposed Church writings on the cleansing of the Temple by comparing it to driving out animals and demons instead of punishing children as discipline, please let me know. On the broader topic of punishment, one can find views ranging from st. Augustine's support of the death penalty to St. Ambrose's opposition to it. I believe Jesus encourages us to seek to give up punishment and live in the Redemption.

Opposed?  Perhaps not. Added to?  Yes, at least from the ones that I have read.  Taking the scripture as a whole, your point of view shows great ignorance of free will and nature.  Nature does not have free will.  Only man has that.  I can think of NO time in the scriptures that nature did not immediately bow to the will of God.  Even the fig tree withered at Christ's command.  Storms were quelled at only His word.  Birds fed the Prophet, fish gave up coins and filled nets.  Bears killed the Children that tormented God's prophet.  A ass, never before ridden, allowed our Lord's disciples to take him and allowed our Lord to ride him into Jerusalem.  Nature, even though fallen, is completely in tune with the will of its Creator.  Only man resists and rejects God.  Jesus did not need a scourge to get the animals to leave the temple.  These poor dumb beasts would immediately act upon the will of their Creator and Lord.  Only man requires the scourge.  To think that Jesus needed the scourge for anything other than the wicked Jews that turned His house into a place of business is ludicrous.  Playing Protestant games with words in languages that nobody still speaks does not overcome the clear message of the entire scriptures and the lives and teachings of those who have lived them.

[Alpo]

Old school parents suck because they make a ton of rules that ultimately drive their children to rebel and disobey them, while modern parents suck because they don't give their children any rules or guidance.

So, what you are saying is, "Parents suck!"  Right?

I would change that into "middle-aged people suck!" Especially women seem to be unable to behave properly and treating non-middle aged people as normal human beings instead something to be despised.

[rakovsky]

Anyway, I believe the scriptures teach us to chastise our children.  

I don't think anybody here would doubt that as spankings have dwindled out of our society, the morality has declined.  (of course other things contributed).  

Morality improves when people are raised without harsh OT-style rod punishment. Readers of Charles Dickens will know that in the mid-19th century rod punishment was frequent, crimes were brutal and common, and life was bleak for very many kids living on soot-covered streets.

In our age we see that punishments that rise to the level of caning are much more common in the inner cities in the US, which are crime ridden as well.

D E G R E E   O F   P H Y S I C A L  P U N I S H M E N T

                 Never   Rare  Moderate  Severe  Extreme
Violent inmates
at San Quentin     0       0       0        0      100%

Juvenile
Delinquents        0       2%      3%      31%      64%          

High School
drop-outs          0       7%     23%      69%       0

http://www.nospank.net/maurer1.htm

"The Belt Theory of Juvenile Delinquency."
"The recidivist male delinquent who has never been exposed to the belt, extension cord or fist at some time in his life is virtually non-existent. As the severity of corporal punishment in the delinquent's developmental history increases, so does the probability that he will engage in a violent act."
Dr. Ralph Welsh

[tweety234]

Old school parents suck because they make a ton of rules that ultimately drive their children to rebel and disobey them, while modern parents suck because they don't give their children any rules or guidance.

that is because we are human. we all suck. No one is better than anyone else. And I doubt the morality of those who claim to be moral, while their behaviour says otherwise.

[tweety234]

The scriptures show us that God is both merciful and just.   

Indeed, and the reason he is merciful is because he is just. Mercy is an expression of justice, which is an expression of love, which is an expression of God's nature itself.

[Kerdy]

Old school parents suck because they make a ton of rules that ultimately drive their children to rebel and disobey them, while modern parents suck because they don't give their children any rules or guidance.

So, what you are saying is, "Parents suck!"  Right?

I would change that into "middle-aged people suck!" Especially women seem to be unable to behave properly and treating non-middle aged people as normal human beings instead something to be despised.

So, what you are saying is, "Adults suck!"  Right?

Actually, between the two of you, it sounds more like "Authority sucks!  I wanna do what I wanna do!"

[biro]

Old school parents suck because they make a ton of rules that ultimately drive their children to rebel and disobey them, while modern parents suck because they don't give their children any rules or guidance.

So, what you are saying is, "Parents suck!"  Right?

I would change that into "middle-aged people suck!" Especially women seem to be unable to behave properly and treating non-middle aged people as normal human beings instead something to be despised.

Wow. And I used to think you were okay.  But you won the prize today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48rz8udZBmQ

[vamrat]

Old school parents suck because they make a ton of rules that ultimately drive their children to rebel and disobey them, while modern parents suck because they don't give their children any rules or guidance.

So, what you are saying is, "Parents suck!"  Right?

I would change that into "middle-aged people suck!" Especially women seem to be unable to behave properly and treating non-middle aged people as normal human beings instead something to be despised.

Wow. And I used to think you were okay.  But you won the prize today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48rz8udZBmQ

And lo, in those days, between the rise of the sons of Arius and when the waters sank Atlantis a hero was born.  His name was Alpo and he made a point.  And it came to pass that the point was driven home.

[Justin Kissel]

[vamrat]

+10,000 points for getting the reference.

[Kerdy]

Anyway, I believe the scriptures teach us to chastise our children.  

I don't think anybody here would doubt that as spankings have dwindled out of our society, the morality has declined.  (of course other things contributed).  

Morality improves when people are raised without harsh OT-style rod punishment. Readers of Charles Dickens will know that in the mid-19th century rod punishment was frequent, crimes were brutal and common, and life was bleak for very many kids living on soot-covered streets.

And this had nothing at all to do with any other outside influence, just spankings?

[Alpo]

Old school parents suck because they make a ton of rules that ultimately drive their children to rebel and disobey them, while modern parents suck because they don't give their children any rules or guidance.

So, what you are saying is, "Parents suck!"  Right?

I would change that into "middle-aged people suck!" Especially women seem to be unable to behave properly and treating non-middle aged people as normal human beings instead something to be despised.

Wow. And I used to think you were okay.  But you won the prize today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48rz8udZBmQ

You wouldn't say that if you had experienced Finnish customer service.

[yeshuaisiam]

Old school parents suck because they make a ton of rules that ultimately drive their children to rebel and disobey them, while modern parents suck because they don't give their children any rules or guidance.

So, what you are saying is, "Parents suck!"  Right?

I would change that into "middle-aged people suck!" Especially women seem to be unable to behave properly and treating non-middle aged people as normal human beings instead something to be despised.

So, what you are saying is, "Adults suck!"  Right?

Actually, between the two of you, it sounds more like "Authority sucks!  I wanna do what I wanna do!"

It's a figment of attitude.

God commands parents in the Torah to train up their children.

We live very old school, and do impose a lot of rules on our children.

We have no TV.
We have no video games.
We do not allow them to talk back.
We make them do farm chores, sometimes even hard ones.
We homeschool them.
We take them to homeschool groups for socialization, where we absolutely make them respect other adults.
We make them keep a clean room, finish jobs completely, and to not slouch on jobs.

What we do for fun:
Go-Karts
BB/Pellet guns
We read stories to the family
Bake home-made stuff - (I kid you not, as I type this there is a homemade pecan pie in the oven.  We gathered pecans today when we stopped by a park on the way home.  We gathered 50 POUNDS of them!!!  God is good)
Play on the trampoline
Crafts, make candles, soap, shampoo, laundry detergent etc.
We also always eat supper at the table and talk.

We do spank if needed.  We have much fun and much love towards one another.  Strictness doesn't mean always being harsh.  Never exasperate.  Be very kind, loving, and strict when rules are broken.  Otherwise, there is much reward in wholesomeness and contentment.

[Kerdy]

Old school parents suck because they make a ton of rules that ultimately drive their children to rebel and disobey them, while modern parents suck because they don't give their children any rules or guidance.

So, what you are saying is, "Parents suck!"  Right?

I would change that into "middle-aged people suck!" Especially women seem to be unable to behave properly and treating non-middle aged people as normal human beings instead something to be despised.

So, what you are saying is, "Adults suck!"  Right?

Actually, between the two of you, it sounds more like "Authority sucks!  I wanna do what I wanna do!"

It's a figment of attitude.

God commands parents in the Torah to train up their children.

We live very old school, and do impose a lot of rules on our children.

We have no TV.
We have no video games.
We do not allow them to talk back.
We make them do farm chores, sometimes even hard ones.
We homeschool them.
We take them to homeschool groups for socialization, where we absolutely make them respect other adults.
We make them keep a clean room, finish jobs completely, and to not slouch on jobs.

What we do for fun:
Go-Karts
BB/Pellet guns
We read stories to the family
Bake home-made stuff - (I kid you not, as I type this there is a homemade pecan pie in the oven.  We gathered pecans today when we stopped by a park on the way home.  We gathered 50 POUNDS of them!!!  God is good)
Play on the trampoline
Crafts, make candles, soap, shampoo, laundry detergent etc.
We also always eat supper at the table and talk.

We do spank if needed.  We have much fun and much love towards one another.  Strictness doesn't mean always being harsh.  Never exasperate.  Be very kind, loving, and strict when rules are broken.  Otherwise, there is much reward in wholesomeness and contentment.

This sounds great!  You describe how I wish my life was, but I do not have the ability or opportunity to live this way.  Although, several times I have considered it and tossing caution to the wind for a simpler, quiet, more wholesome life for my family.  I would home school in an instant, but my wife is worried she wouldn’t do a good job and I don’t have the time.  Who knows...maybe I will retire early and do this before my kids leave home.

[Alpo]

So, what you are saying is, "Adults suck!"  Right?

Nope. I'm saying I'm not treated like a normal human being by Finnish middle-aged customer servants. Those who seem younger than middle-aged generally tend to offer better customer service. Also, I've worked two years as a customer servant and most of the people with worst behaviour or who were roaring drunk were middle-aged.

The irony is that my lifestyle seems to be turning rather middle-aged. I wonder when I end up cutting my hair and removing my earrings.

[OrthoNoob]

Anyway, I believe the scriptures teach us to chastise our children.  

I don't think anybody here would doubt that as spankings have dwindled out of our society, the morality has declined.  (of course other things contributed).  

Morality improves when people are raised without harsh OT-style rod punishment. Readers of Charles Dickens will know that in the mid-19th century rod punishment was frequent, crimes were brutal and common, and life was bleak for very many kids living on soot-covered streets.

In our age we see that punishments that rise to the level of caning are much more common in the inner cities in the US, which are crime ridden as well.

D E G R E E   O F   P H Y S I C A L  P U N I S H M E N T

                 Never   Rare  Moderate  Severe  Extreme
Violent inmates
at San Quentin     0       0       0        0      100%

Juvenile
Delinquents        0       2%      3%      31%      64%          

High School
drop-outs          0       7%     23%      69%       0

http://www.nospank.net/maurer1.htm

"The Belt Theory of Juvenile Delinquency."
"The recidivist male delinquent who has never been exposed to the belt, extension cord or fist at some time in his life is virtually non-existent. As the severity of corporal punishment in the delinquent's developmental history increases, so does the probability that he will engage in a violent act."
Dr. Ralph Welsh

Did they control for any other factors (like, say, a tendency to misbehave repeatedly in the first place)?

[Kerdy]

Anyway, I believe the scriptures teach us to chastise our children.  

I don't think anybody here would doubt that as spankings have dwindled out of our society, the morality has declined.  (of course other things contributed).  

Morality improves when people are raised without harsh OT-style rod punishment. Readers of Charles Dickens will know that in the mid-19th century rod punishment was frequent, crimes were brutal and common, and life was bleak for very many kids living on soot-covered streets.

In our age we see that punishments that rise to the level of caning are much more common in the inner cities in the US, which are crime ridden as well.

D E G R E E   O F   P H Y S I C A L  P U N I S H M E N T

                 Never   Rare  Moderate  Severe  Extreme
Violent inmates
at San Quentin     0       0       0        0      100%

Juvenile
Delinquents        0       2%      3%      31%      64%          

High School
drop-outs          0       7%     23%      69%       0

http://www.nospank.net/maurer1.htm

"The Belt Theory of Juvenile Delinquency."
"The recidivist male delinquent who has never been exposed to the belt, extension cord or fist at some time in his life is virtually non-existent. As the severity of corporal punishment in the delinquent's developmental history increases, so does the probability that he will engage in a violent act."
Dr. Ralph Welsh

Did they control for any other factors (like, say, a tendency to misbehave repeatedly in the first place)?

Don’t you realize if you spank your kids once, they turn into violent criminals?  It’s common knowledge because some guy somewhere said so.

[rakovsky]

I've hesitated to reply, but:yes, I believe in it, but no, never used it.

Good for you, Isa, on not hitting your children.

I know what you mean about hesitation to reply. This is an extremely popular thread apparently, and unusually so. After all, I doubt "Detention - Yea or Nay" or "Extra chores - Yea or Nay" would get nearly as many replies and so often. My guess is that the combination of violence, pain, and the implicit sexual aspect make it a "hot" topic.

Still, it must be admitted that in some places whupping a$$ is so common, that they even beat students this way in southern schools. About 10% of Mississippi students get beatings every year. This is in contrast to schools in Greece and Russia, where in the latter corporal punishment was outlawed in 1860. I remember Tolstoy wrote a short story about a caning he witnessed in the army before it was banned. Students in the rural South are still subject to this and their bruises sometimes last a week.

I think the reason for this may be in part due to the Calvinist emphasis on punishment in their theology and in raising children, since Calvinism's offshoots are stronger in the US south. Another reason could be the special brutality of US slavery, when the weapon called "the paddle" was invented.

[Kerdy]

Please allow me to play devil’s advocate (to illustrate the point of how easy it is to spin things into a heaping pile of rubbish).

"Detention - Yea or Nay"
Are you seriously advocating people incarcerate their own children?  Forcibly imprisoning small children without a fair trial?  This is unusually cruel, especially for a child who does not understand why they are being placed into prison.  What happened to the constitution?  Did you build an actual prison cell in your basement?  Unbelievable!  I bet you won’t do this when they are old enough to say no, because you won’t be able to physically restrain them any longer.  What then?  Will you pepper spray them into submission?

"Extra chores - Yea or Nay"
When did personal servitude become an acceptable form of punishment?  This borders on slavery.  I find it despicable you promote slavery of children, especially those who are unable to defend themselves.  You must feel like a big man!  And in case you missed it, child labor is illegal.  Once they are old enough to say no, I would like to see how you enforce this.  Guess you are going to beat them into submission, huh?

Of course, these are reckless and foolhardy arguments, but I hope you realize arguments against spanking children sound the exact same, oblivious.

In relation to your ill-informed statement students are beaten in southern schools and left with bruises, you are horribly and embarrassingly mistaken.  Schools, public anyway, have not enforced corporal punishment for several, several years.  And to push the envelope further, bruises are, in NO WAY, indicative of abuse.  Law enforcement doesn’t even use them as an indicator anymore.  I would be happy to elaborate on the reasons if you wish.

Those who do not want to spank their children, don’t, but you are being disingenuous when you say things like, “Hit your kid…beat your child” as if people fist punch a three year old for not throwing cheese stick wrapper in the trash can.  There is a world of difference between proper punishment and physical abuse.  Those of us who know the difference listen to the irrational arguments made in opposition, roll our eyes and then take an Advil to regulate the headache which ensues.  All I ask is you not placate to the emotional, wishy-washy, touchy feely, parts of the illogical mind in an attempt to support your views.  Popping your child’s hand to keep them from touching a hot surface or paddling their rear for throwing a toy car and hitting another child in the face are nowhere close to grabbing a stick and full arm swing beating the child because you can and they can’t stop you.  I implore you, use honest debate or do not debate at all.  Stop spinning the truth and using emotionally invoking statements which have no real meaning behind them.  Beating a child is wrong, spanking a child is not, but if you feel it is wrong, don’t spank you child.  

And anyone who attempts to place some sort of sexual connotation into spanking is just plain vile and irresponsible.

[Luckster]

D E G R E E   O F   P H Y S I C A L  P U N I S H M E N T

                 Never   Rare  Moderate  Severe  Extreme
Violent inmates
at San Quentin     0       0       0        0      100%

Juvenile
Delinquents        0       2%      3%      31%      64%          

High School
drop-outs          0       7%     23%      69%       0

Funny thing about statistics is that they can be manipulated in every possible way.

If you look at the entire chart, you'll see a slightly different story:
D E G R E E   O F   P H Y S I C A L  P U N I S H M E N T

                 Never   Rare  Moderate  Severe  Extreme
Violent inmates
at San Quentin     0       0       0        0      100%

Juvenile
Delinquents        0       2%      3%      31%      64%           

High School
drop-outs          0       7%     23%      69%       0

College
freshmen           2%     23%     40%      33%       0

Professionals      5%     40%     36%      17%       0

The bolded section tells an interesting story. The most successful individuals, or at least the most driven, received some form of physical punishment.

Of course, like I said, stats can be manipulated. It's a rough generalization to say that 2/3s of high school drop outs were physically abused. I'd argue that a broken home was the issue, and the abuse was a side effect of such.

[rakovsky]

Funny thing about statistics is that they can be manipulated in every possible way.

If you look at the entire chart, you'll see a slightly different story:
D E G R E E   O F   P H Y S I C A L  P U N I S H M E N T

                 Never   Rare  Moderate  Severe  Extreme
Violent inmates
at San Quentin     0       0       0        0      100%

Juvenile
Delinquents        0       2%      3%      31%      64%          

High School
drop-outs          0       7%     23%      69%       0

College
freshmen           2%     23%     40%      33%       0

Professionals      5%     40%     36%      17%       0

You got me. I didn't include the last two categories because their numbers reflect the general population at large. Only about 5-2% of Americans were probably never hit by their parents at all in the 1980's. Nevertheless, one could notice that professionals received even less hitting than freshmen: most frequently the professionals were rarely hit.

Regarding the claim that public schools do not use corporal punishment anymore, Human Rights Watch produced the following map:


According to the 2008 Human Rights Watch report "A Violent Education":

*According to the Office for Civil Rights at the US Department of Education, 223,190 students nationwide received corporal punishment at least once in the 2006-2007 school year, including 49,197 students in Texas alone, the largest number of any state. In Mississippi, 7.5 percent of public school students were paddled during this period, the highest percentage in the nation. The actual numbers almost surely are higher: Human Rights Watch interviewees reported that corporal punishment is often administered in a chaotic environment in which many instances of the practice are not recorded. One administrator reported that 37 students in a single day were sent to his office for corporal punishment. A high school student in another district estimated that as many as 60 students a day are paddled at her school.

*This report examines the use of corporal punishment in US public schools... US private schools are not the subject of this report...
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2008/us0808/1.htm#_Toc206220322

Many victims of corporal punishment in schools sustain serious injuries, as noted by the Society for Adolescent Medicine, including severe muscle injury, extensive bruising, and whiplash damage. http://www.hrw.org/reports/2008/us0808/6.htm

The report goes on with more accounts. You can see photos of these bruises on nospank.net
I remember watching a story about the marks that stay on children in the 1990's on Nickelodeon's "Kid's News". If you hit a human being hard with a thick board it often leaves a bruise.

Russia abolished school corporal punishment in 1860 and Greece has too. School beatings are violent and abusive, and America should abolish it too.

[OrthoNoob]

Rakovsky,

I think my question about controlling for other factors is a rather important one if this study is to be used as evidence in this discussion. Do you know the answer to it?

[cizinec]

Old school parents suck because they make a ton of rules that ultimately drive their children to rebel and disobey them, while modern parents suck because they don't give their children any rules or guidance.

So, what you are saying is, "Parents suck!"  Right?

I'm a parent and I resemble those remarks.

[tweety234]

Old school parents suck because they make a ton of rules that ultimately drive their children to rebel and disobey them, while modern parents suck because they don't give their children any rules or guidance.

So, what you are saying is, "Parents suck!"  Right?

Basically.

[tweety234]

Old school parents suck because they make a ton of rules that ultimately drive their children to rebel and disobey them, while modern parents suck because they don't give their children any rules or guidance.

So, what you are saying is, "Parents suck!"  Right?

I would change that into "middle-aged people suck!" Especially women seem to be unable to behave properly and treating non-middle aged people as normal human beings instead something to be despised.

So, what you are saying is, "Adults suck!"  Right?

Actually, between the two of you, it sounds more like "Authority sucks!  I wanna do what I wanna do!"

It's a figment of attitude.

God commands parents in the Torah to train up their children.

We live very old school, and do impose a lot of rules on our children.

We have no TV.
We have no video games.
We do not allow them to talk back.
We make them do farm chores, sometimes even hard ones.
We homeschool them.
We take them to homeschool groups for socialization, where we absolutely make them respect other adults.
We make them keep a clean room, finish jobs completely, and to not slouch on jobs.

What we do for fun:
Go-Karts
BB/Pellet guns
We read stories to the family
Bake home-made stuff - (I kid you not, as I type this there is a homemade pecan pie in the oven.  We gathered pecans today when we stopped by a park on the way home.  We gathered 50 POUNDS of them!!!  God is good)
Play on the trampoline
Crafts, make candles, soap, shampoo, laundry detergent etc.
We also always eat supper at the table and talk.

We do spank if needed.  We have much fun and much love towards one another.  Strictness doesn't mean always being harsh.  Never exasperate.  Be very kind, loving, and strict when rules are broken.  Otherwise, there is much reward in wholesomeness and contentment.

I am so grateful you are not my father, or anyone around me. Praise be to God.

[rakovsky]

God commands parents in the Torah to train up their children. (hitting children is not mentioned in the Torah, but in Solomon's proverbs. And isn't Christ a new Torah of mercy?)

We live very old school, and do impose a lot of rules on our children. (like pharisees)

What we do for fun:
Crafts, make candles, soap, shampoo, laundry detergent etc.

We do spank if needed.

Are you saying that, Tweety, because of the phrase "we spank if needed"? I am sure they grow up hearing lots of fun phrases like that.  





At the moment I am reading C.S.Lewis, who explains cruel parts of the Old Testament, like fond portrayals of bashing babies' heads, as having an inspired meaning different than what might appear at first sight.

I think Solomon's proverb about if you beat children they "won't die" can be seen in this way. This cannot be said of real OT-style beatings. Instead, this matches Christ who was chastised for us, bore our stripes instead, and did not die.

Ultimately, Christ teaches us to forgive eachother our trespasses and if we have something against our neighbor not to take them to court but to make it up with them. Jesus also invites children into this heavenly kingdom of mercy as he says "Let the children come to me" and do not hinder them.  

Peace.

[Kerdy]

Old school parents suck because they make a ton of rules that ultimately drive their children to rebel and disobey them, while modern parents suck because they don't give their children any rules or guidance.

So, what you are saying is, "Parents suck!"  Right?

I would change that into "middle-aged people suck!" Especially women seem to be unable to behave properly and treating non-middle aged people as normal human beings instead something to be despised.

So, what you are saying is, "Adults suck!"  Right?

Actually, between the two of you, it sounds more like "Authority sucks!  I wanna do what I wanna do!"

It's a figment of attitude.

God commands parents in the Torah to train up their children.

We live very old school, and do impose a lot of rules on our children.

We have no TV.
We have no video games.
We do not allow them to talk back.
We make them do farm chores, sometimes even hard ones.
We homeschool them.
We take them to homeschool groups for socialization, where we absolutely make them respect other adults.
We make them keep a clean room, finish jobs completely, and to not slouch on jobs.

What we do for fun:
Go-Karts
BB/Pellet guns
We read stories to the family
Bake home-made stuff - (I kid you not, as I type this there is a homemade pecan pie in the oven.  We gathered pecans today when we stopped by a park on the way home.  We gathered 50 POUNDS of them!!!  God is good)
Play on the trampoline
Crafts, make candles, soap, shampoo, laundry detergent etc.
We also always eat supper at the table and talk.

We do spank if needed.  We have much fun and much love towards one another.  Strictness doesn't mean always being harsh.  Never exasperate.  Be very kind, loving, and strict when rules are broken.  Otherwise, there is much reward in wholesomeness and contentment.

I am so grateful you are not my father, or anyone around me. Praise be to God.

It sounds like an amazing experience.  Why would you say something like this anyway?

[rakovsky]

Some birds don't want to be in a cage?



Yey! Fly away! Fly away!

[Punch]

Maybe . . .

[xOrthodox4Christx]

I'm against it unless it is for very specific and very dire reasons.

I was spanked for very trivial reasons as a child, and I really couldn't think of doing the same thing to my kid.

[RehamG]

Spanking....nope, not for my kids now. I can think of many more effective discipline means that don't involve me hitting them. We got old school beatings with belts and wood paddles from our dad til we were teens, my 5 sisters and I, and it didn't do well for us. We all left home ASAP to get away from it. I became Muslim and married at 17 to escape (fail), one ran away at 16 and is in drug rehab, the other 2 have legit mental issues and are spending time in facilities...and one of them is holding out OK. I will say Spanking is wayyyyy different than a 30min. beat-down, though.

[Shieldmaiden4Christ]

I'm not yet a parent, but what I've noticed with my three-year-old niece is that if she's spanked, she will start hitting the person and screaming about how mean they are.

So, when I parent, spanking will be a no go.

[biro]

I'm against it unless it is for very specific and very dire reasons.

I was spanked for very trivial reasons as a child, and I really couldn't think of doing the same thing to my kid.

Same here.

I was spanked a lot as a kid, and it never did anything for me except make me hate my parents.

[Arachne]

I'm against it unless it is for very specific and very dire reasons.

This. (Not least because it can get social services to your door really swiftly.)

For my 5-year-old, having his pants pulled down and getting a smack (only one) on the bottom is the utmost indignity. Little, short of running into traffic, would warrant it.

[xOrthodox4Christx]

I'm against it unless it is for very specific and very dire reasons.

I was spanked for very trivial reasons as a child, and I really couldn't think of doing the same thing to my kid.

Same here.

I was spanked a lot as a kid, and it never did anything for me except make me hate my parents.

For my 5-year-old, having his pants pulled down and getting a smack (only one) on the bottom is the utmost indignity. Little, short of running into traffic, would warrant it.

We're in the same boat on both fronts; I have a bit of stigma toward my parents for the spanking, likewise I wouldn't spank my child unless he/she had done or was doing something dangerous or severe. I would first make sure however, that the child knows why they were spanked. Otherwise, the child doesn't know what they did wrong, thinks their parents hate them, and may commit the same action again.

I'm not yet a parent, but what I've noticed with my three-year-old niece is that if she's spanked, she will start hitting the person and screaming about how mean they are.

My Kindergarten-or-so aged cousin is the same way. She's also pretty loud and spoiled.

[vamrat]

I'm not yet a parent, but what I've noticed with my three-year-old niece is that if she's spanked, she will start hitting the person and screaming about how mean they are.

My Kindergarten-or-so aged cousin is the same way. She's also pretty loud and spoiled.

That's what I thought the first time I read the quoted bit.

[tcolon90]

I guess we all have different reactions. When I was hit (i mean like punched on the shoulder) I didn't do anything bad for months.

[CarolS]

I think it's better to interpret "spare the rod, spoil the child", not meaning that you must beat with a rod, but rather that discipline is necessary.  Over the years, I have observed that most of the children who behave very badly in church (loud screaming and tantrums that can't be calmed) are from families who do not spank their kids (or perhaps their discipline in general was lax or inconsistent).

I grew up in a family where rare spankings were given with a wooden spoon, however, I quit spanking our son when he was about 5 years old after observing that the spankings were not changing his behavior, and were not creating any remorse, they were only making him angry.  So we switched to time-outs and removing privileges.

My son-in-law has a unique method of discipline that works very well.  When the boys, 7 & 8 years old, misbehave they have to do pushups.  Usually it's 10 pushups, but once for a bad offense 100 were prescribed.  The boys cooperate very well with this and it's also providing benefit to their bodies.  It's discipline you can use in public (because of course kids easily take advantage of a situation where there can be no punishment), raises a few eyebrows, but can't be labeled child abuse.  The kids appreciate this, because it gets the punishment out of the way, is much preferred to a long time-out.  My son-in-law also used this technique to great effect when teaching at an all boys high school.  He allowed his students to choose push-ups instead of demerits for misbehavior.

[Santagranddad]

I had five children and fostered another as well as working with families.

First problem, define spank?

A blow of how much force?
Hand, fist or instrument?
To which site upon the child?
Administered only when the adult is NOT in a temper?

Then what are the alternatives?

Naughty step?
Deprivation of treats?
Grounding?
Sit down and talk it through?
Therapeutic holding?
Endless nagging and emotional withdrawal?
Lock 'em in the cupboard under the stairs?

It really is simple, isn't it. No! I've met children brought up according to a number of modern parenting methods who are, put simply, out of control. And I've met children who have been dealt with using very direct methodologies who are equally out of control.

One explanation might be that which ever parenting model was used, it was not applied consistently, was poor targeted or one parent's interventions were undermined by the other.

For me, never ever strike a child when you are angry, not coping or overwrought. Never strike a child around the head, with a fist or with full force. If there are other means that work use them but adults are there to set examples, to nurture, to set boundaries and to teach children there is a link between cause and effect. Parents agree and work consistently together. Tough love has a place, but letting children run amok without adequate parental intervention is abusive. Knocking seven barrels of pooh out your children isn't tough love, it's cruel.

Children need love, consistency, clear messages, promises made are promises kept, time and sometimes a bit of outside help.

Be nice out there......

[TheTrisagion]

First problem, define spank?

A blow of how much force?
Hand, fist or instrument?
To which site upon the child?
Administered only when the adult is NOT in a temper?

Spank: to deliver a blow to the gluteus maximus muscle with the open hand traveling at approximately 200 ft/s for the purpose of meteing discipline to a child between the ages of 2 and 8.

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