Topic: Spanking - Yea or Nay?

[Kerdy]

I voted Absolutely Not!

I would never lay a hand on my son or any child for I would be investigated by CPS and carted off to jail for a very long time.  Teach a child how to negotiate and he/she will go far in life and make friends.  Teach a child violence and he/she will reciprocate with all kinds of violence against oneself and others.

I really don't know how some of you can justify spanking children.  I've never seen Supernanny lay a hand on any child.   

King Solomon from the Word of God disagrees with you:  "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."  Proverbs 23:13-14.  

I wonder why solomon didn't mind his own business about his own salvation, and started lecturing others how to discipline instead.

Cherry picking what we do or do not like?

[Kerdy]

Proverbs speaks of the rod quite frequently. From a Biblical perspective one must spank their children.

Proverbs 13:24 King James Version He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

yeah. Solomon. Nothing else to do, except tell people how to raise their kids.

...something about wisest man who ever lived...what was that?

[Kerdy]

Why are you seeking out old threads so much?  One or two I could understand, but this is several.  Just curious...

[Punch]

I think it is extremely difficult to physically "discipline" someone without embittering them.

Wrong.  I guess that shows something of what you are made of.  I was disciplined quite heavily when I was younger, and I recieved probably only a fraction of the spankings that I should have gotten.  I am thankful that my parents loved me enough to ensure that I learned at an early age that there were some people who actually had authority over me, and that there were some rules that needed to be followed.  It has served me well in my adult life, and I hold not one iota of bitterness toward my parents for the spankings that I recieved in my youth.  The real problem here is that we have too many feeble minded ninnies that cannot (or will not) understand the difference between beating and discipline.  Our society shows the result of this ignorance. 

[rakovsky]

I would like to give my son a good beating because he smokes cigarettes, but he's 22 and a black [belt] now so I dont think I can take him anymore. Maybe I can sneak up while he is asleep and use a baseball bat.

Funny.

[tweety234]

Why are you seeking out old threads so much?  One or two I could understand, but this is several.  Just curious...

because, I made my laptop to keep me logged in all the time. But I am searching on google for different topics, so whatever comes up I comment if I am interested.

[tweety234]

I would like to give my son a good beating because he smokes cigarettes, but he's 22 and a black black now so I dont think I can take him anymore. Maybe I can sneak up while he is asleep and use a baseball bat.

Repent. For the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Yes, why don't you do that?

why doesn't he do that is my question. And why do you have to reply when I am referring to others?

[tweety234]

I am against. But I am not surprised to hear that many people do that cruel type of thing. This world is a mess. There is nothing we can do to change it. But there is a lot we can do to change ourselves.








Lord have mercy on the children. It isn't fair that they take the punishment we deserve.

What is more cruel?  Spanking a child when it is needed to correct a wrong action, to teach them right from wrong, to let them know there are boundaries and a price for violating those boundaries so they grow into well-adjusted adults who understand rules and laws or not spanking the child, teaching them nothing and leaving them to their own, limited, immature, inexperienced choices, hoping for the best when they grow up?

Spanking is not cruel, unless it is excessive.  I never knew what my father mean when he said, "This hurts me more than it does you" until I had my own children.  Ultimately, it is each parents choice, but condemning a parent who does properly spank their kids is ridiculous at best, foolish at worst.

so I guess it's ok then if your boss, gives you a good spanking to teach you when you make a mistake. Right?

[Punch]

I am against. But I am not surprised to hear that many people do that cruel type of thing. This world is a mess. There is nothing we can do to change it. But there is a lot we can do to change ourselves.

Lord have mercy on the children. It isn't fair that they take the punishment we deserve.

What is more cruel?  Spanking a child when it is needed to correct a wrong action, to teach them right from wrong, to let them know there are boundaries and a price for violating those boundaries so they grow into well-adjusted adults who understand rules and laws or not spanking the child, teaching them nothing and leaving them to their own, limited, immature, inexperienced choices, hoping for the best when they grow up?

Spanking is not cruel, unless it is excessive.  I never knew what my father mean when he said, "This hurts me more than it does you" until I had my own children.  Ultimately, it is each parents choice, but condemning a parent who does properly spank their kids is ridiculous at best, foolish at worst.

so I guess it's ok then if your boss, gives you a good spanking to teach you when you make a mistake. Right?

Having seen the devastation that termination causes to families, I would rather that our bosses use corporal punishment.  And that is coming from a Union Steward.  So I guess the answer is yes.  You know, you really need to think out your arguments before you present them, or else stop arguing.  You are really not very good at it.

[JamesR]

I think it is extremely difficult to physically "discipline" someone without embittering them.

Wrong.  I guess that shows something of what you are made of.  I was disciplined quite heavily when I was younger, and I recieved probably only a fraction of the spankings that I should have gotten.  I am thankful that my parents loved me enough to ensure that I learned at an early age that there were some people who actually had authority over me, and that there were some rules that needed to be followed.  It has served me well in my adult life, and I hold not one iota of bitterness toward my parents for the spankings that I recieved in my youth.  The real problem here is that we have too many feeble minded ninnies that cannot (or will not) understand the difference between beating and discipline.  Our society shows the result of this ignorance. 

+1

Post of the Month material right here

I love you Punch

[Alveus Lacuna]

Sometimes spanking seems to work, other times not so much. I'm suspicious that my son has started his hitting phase he's in right now because of spanking.

[Kerdy]

I am against. But I am not surprised to hear that many people do that cruel type of thing. This world is a mess. There is nothing we can do to change it. But there is a lot we can do to change ourselves.








Lord have mercy on the children. It isn't fair that they take the punishment we deserve.

What is more cruel?  Spanking a child when it is needed to correct a wrong action, to teach them right from wrong, to let them know there are boundaries and a price for violating those boundaries so they grow into well-adjusted adults who understand rules and laws or not spanking the child, teaching them nothing and leaving them to their own, limited, immature, inexperienced choices, hoping for the best when they grow up?

Spanking is not cruel, unless it is excessive.  I never knew what my father mean when he said, "This hurts me more than it does you" until I had my own children.  Ultimately, it is each parents choice, but condemning a parent who does properly spank their kids is ridiculous at best, foolish at worst.

so I guess it's ok then if your boss, gives you a good spanking to teach you when you make a mistake. Right?

What?  This isn't even close to being relevant?  Why not just reply with "chocolate cake?"  A little integrity and intellectual honesty here would be amazing.

Jim:  "I don't like beef.  I don't think it's healthy."

Other guy: "So, I guess it's ok then to just run your car off the road, into a field and run over someone's cow?"

[Shanghaiski]

I would like to give my son a good beating because he smokes cigarettes, but he's 22 and a black black now so I dont think I can take him anymore. Maybe I can sneak up while he is asleep and use a baseball bat.

Repent. For the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Yes, why don't you do that?

why doesn't he do that is my question. And why do you have to reply when I am referring to others?

Just trying to help you. You keep seeking the living amongst the dead.

[stpaulphilip]

I like turtles. 

[Justin Kissel]

I like turtles. 

They hold the world up ya know

[Malina]

We have to use every opportunity to obtain good behavior of our children. Especially, we have to learn them by our examples. Sparking can be used in some difficult situation.

[yeshuaisiam]

When there are Christians who ignore the bible, there is a problem.

"Spare the rod, spoil the child".

We spank in direct defiance or disobedience.   It hurts us a lot more then them.  In 10 minutes, they are done sobbing about it.  It saddens me for days.

[Mokek Kwe]

When there are Christians who ignore the bible, there is a problem.

"Spare the rod, spoil the child".

We spank in direct defiance or disobedience.   It hurts us a lot more then them.  In 10 minutes, they are done sobbing about it.  It saddens me for days.

Oddly enough, "Spare the rod, spoil the child" is nowhere to be found in the Bible. (If you can find that direct quote in the Bible, please let me know where.)


quote from http://www.stophitting.com/index.php?page=faithmaterial

The Bible itself records the negative effect of Solomon's parenting style on his son, Rehoboam. He became a widely hated ruler after his father's death and had to leave to avoid assassination by his own people.

Some people use the argument “Spare the rod and spoil the child” to support hitting children and assume it has a biblical basis.

It does not have a biblical basis. Here is the origin of “Spare the rod and spoil the child”.

“The phrase “Spare the rod and spoil the child” comes from Hudibras, a mock heroic poem by Samuel Butler about the English Civil War of the 17th century. The narrative satirically praises Sir Hudibras, an arrogant, stupid, greedy, and dishonest knight. Part two describes a visit to the imprisoned Hudibras by a widow he has been wooing. It is this section and in reference to squelching romantic feelings, that the phrase ‘Then spare the rod and spoil the child’ appears.”

[Quinault]

Yeah, Proverbs 13:24 has certainly become perverted over the years.

[Punch]

Correct.  It actually says "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him." It also says "Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him."  And again "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die." If more is needed, there is "Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death." as well as "The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother." No, there is certainly nothing in the Bible that could be taken as "Spare the rod, spoil the child".  Nothing at all.

When there are Christians who ignore the bible, there is a problem.

"Spare the rod, spoil the child".

We spank in direct defiance or disobedience.   It hurts us a lot more then them.  In 10 minutes, they are done sobbing about it.  It saddens me for days.

Oddly enough, "Spare the rod, spoil the child" is nowhere to be found in the Bible. (If you can find that direct quote in the Bible, please let me know where.)


quote from http://www.stophitting.com/index.php?page=faithmaterial

The Bible itself records the negative effect of Solomon's parenting style on his son, Rehoboam. He became a widely hated ruler after his father's death and had to leave to avoid assassination by his own people.

Some people use the argument “Spare the rod and spoil the child” to support hitting children and assume it has a biblical basis.

It does not have a biblical basis. Here is the origin of “Spare the rod and spoil the child”.

“The phrase “Spare the rod and spoil the child” comes from Hudibras, a mock heroic poem by Samuel Butler about the English Civil War of the 17th century. The narrative satirically praises Sir Hudibras, an arrogant, stupid, greedy, and dishonest knight. Part two describes a visit to the imprisoned Hudibras by a widow he has been wooing. It is this section and in reference to squelching romantic feelings, that the phrase ‘Then spare the rod and spoil the child’ appears.”

[Mokek Kwe]

  So, Proverbs.... proverbs are proverbial, no? Is written by Solomon, who sucked as a father basically, and was given to us in the Bible as an example of how parenting can go wrong... I can understand how that could be confusing for someone who isn't aware of the full context of the story.

Correct.  It actually says "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him." It also says "Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him."  And again "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die." If more is needed, there is "Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death." as well as "The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother." No, there is certainly nothing in the Bible that could be taken as "Spare the rod, spoil the child".  Nothing at all.

When there are Christians who ignore the bible, there is a problem.

"Spare the rod, spoil the child".

We spank in direct defiance or disobedience.   It hurts us a lot more then them.  In 10 minutes, they are done sobbing about it.  It saddens me for days.

Oddly enough, "Spare the rod, spoil the child" is nowhere to be found in the Bible. (If you can find that direct quote in the Bible, please let me know where.)


quote from http://www.stophitting.com/index.php?page=faithmaterial

The Bible itself records the negative effect of Solomon's parenting style on his son, Rehoboam. He became a widely hated ruler after his father's death and had to leave to avoid assassination by his own people.

Some people use the argument “Spare the rod and spoil the child” to support hitting children and assume it has a biblical basis.

It does not have a biblical basis. Here is the origin of “Spare the rod and spoil the child”.

“The phrase “Spare the rod and spoil the child” comes from Hudibras, a mock heroic poem by Samuel Butler about the English Civil War of the 17th century. The narrative satirically praises Sir Hudibras, an arrogant, stupid, greedy, and dishonest knight. Part two describes a visit to the imprisoned Hudibras by a widow he has been wooing. It is this section and in reference to squelching romantic feelings, that the phrase ‘Then spare the rod and spoil the child’ appears.”

[vamrat]

So, Proverbs.... proverbs are proverbial, no? Is written by Solomon, who sucked as a father basically, and was given to us in the Bible as an example of how parenting can go wrong... I can understand how that could be confusing for someone who isn't aware of the full context of the story.

Correct.  It actually says "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him." It also says "Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him."  And again "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die." If more is needed, there is "Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death." as well as "The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother." No, there is certainly nothing in the Bible that could be taken as "Spare the rod, spoil the child".  Nothing at all.

When there are Christians who ignore the bible, there is a problem.

"Spare the rod, spoil the child".

We spank in direct defiance or disobedience.   It hurts us a lot more then them.  In 10 minutes, they are done sobbing about it.  It saddens me for days.

Oddly enough, "Spare the rod, spoil the child" is nowhere to be found in the Bible. (If you can find that direct quote in the Bible, please let me know where.)


quote from http://www.stophitting.com/index.php?page=faithmaterial

The Bible itself records the negative effect of Solomon's parenting style on his son, Rehoboam. He became a widely hated ruler after his father's death and had to leave to avoid assassination by his own people.

Some people use the argument “Spare the rod and spoil the child” to support hitting children and assume it has a biblical basis.

It does not have a biblical basis. Here is the origin of “Spare the rod and spoil the child”.

“The phrase “Spare the rod and spoil the child” comes from Hudibras, a mock heroic poem by Samuel Butler about the English Civil War of the 17th century. The narrative satirically praises Sir Hudibras, an arrogant, stupid, greedy, and dishonest knight. Part two describes a visit to the imprisoned Hudibras by a widow he has been wooing. It is this section and in reference to squelching romantic feelings, that the phrase ‘Then spare the rod and spoil the child’ appears.”

I think the story more clearly shows how listening to your wife/wives can go wrong and how patient God can be regardless.

[Marc1152]

On the other end of the spectrum Parents will negotiate with their kids. I see it in Church a lot.

In that case the Parent should be taken out and beaten.

Kids are like dogs. They need to understand who the leader is. Bold swift action is what is needed the nano second they miss behave. Then after that all they need is "the look" and they shut up.

That doesnt mean not to respect them. We had a rule. You have no vote and no voice until you are 12. From age 12 to 16 you have voice, you can participate in family decision making and give your opinion ( Beach or Mountains?) but no vote. At 16 you have voice and a vote. 

Kids are 19 and 23 now. Turned out great. Wife didnt make it, but the kids have done fine.

[rakovsky]

Here is the origin of “Spare the rod and spoil the child”.

“The phrase “Spare the rod and spoil the child” comes from Hudibras, a mock heroic poem by Samuel Butler about the English Civil War of the 17th century. The narrative satirically praises Sir Hudibras, an arrogant, stupid, greedy, and dishonest knight. Part two describes a visit to the imprisoned Hudibras by a widow he has been wooing. It is this section and in reference to squelching romantic feelings, that the phrase ‘Then spare the rod and spoil the child’ appears.”

That's a good point, Mokek. I remember reading that this fake proverb was first made in a sexual context. Spanking has a sexual aspect since it focuses on a person's private area, and often has a sexual undertone in society. (See "WWF Spanking") Spanking acts like disrobing make no sense unless one understands the sexual aspect.

The Bible nowhere supports spanking in particular, because spanking means hitting the person's buttocks. In fact, taking Solomon's Proverbs passages at face value, it means caning children like adults, because it also says "a rod is for the back of a fool". Caning is harsh enough even without a sexual element.

The counterargument is that the parents are not aware of the sexual aspect. However, there are people who kiss other people on the lips without feeling anything sexual, but most people would agree that lip kissing has a sexual aspect.

It's noteworthy that the widespread fake Proverb you pointed to is exclusively an English one. This is the "English Vice." Israel and Greece, non-Anglo societies dedicated to the Old Testament and Orthodoxy respectively, have by now taken steps to put bottom smacking painlessly behind them.

[primuspilus]

Spanking has a sexual aspect since it focuses on a person's private area, and often has a sexual undertone in society. (See "WWF Spanking") Spanking acts like disrobing make no sense unless one understands the sexual aspect

There is nothing quite like dime-store psychology on the internets. I've spanked my son before, and it had nothing to do with sex at all. In fact, saying something like that to alot of parents will probably get you a trip to your local hospital.

The Bible nowhere supports spanking in particular

It doesn't mention Saturn in particular either.

It's noteworthy that the widespread fake Proverb you pointed to is exclusively an English one. This is the "English Vice." Israel and Greece, non-Anglo societies dedicated to the Old Testament and Orthodoxy respectively, have by now taken steps to put bottom smacking painlessly behind them.

So what? I fail to see your point on this.

PP

[vamrat]

Here is the origin of “Spare the rod and spoil the child”.

“The phrase “Spare the rod and spoil the child” comes from Hudibras, a mock heroic poem by Samuel Butler about the English Civil War of the 17th century. The narrative satirically praises Sir Hudibras, an arrogant, stupid, greedy, and dishonest knight. Part two describes a visit to the imprisoned Hudibras by a widow he has been wooing. It is this section and in reference to squelching romantic feelings, that the phrase ‘Then spare the rod and spoil the child’ appears.”

That's a good point, Mokek. I remember reading that this fake proverb was first made in a sexual context. Spanking has a sexual aspect since it focuses on a person's private area, and often has a sexual undertone in society. (See "WWF Spanking") Spanking acts like disrobing make no sense unless one understands the sexual aspect.

The Bible nowhere supports spanking in particular, because spanking means hitting the person's buttocks. In fact, taking Solomon's Proverbs passages at face value, it means caning children like adults, because it also says "a rod is for the back of a fool". Caning is harsh enough even without a sexual element.

The counterargument is that the parents are not aware of the sexual aspect. However, there are people who kiss other people on the lips without feeling anything sexual, but most people would agree that lip kissing has a sexual aspect.

It's noteworthy that the widespread fake Proverb you pointed to is exclusively an English one. This is the "English Vice." Israel and Greece, non-Anglo societies dedicated to the Old Testament and Orthodoxy respectively, have by now taken steps to put bottom smacking painlessly behind them.

I guess I can understand why you don't spank your kids (you still haven't answered as to HOW you discipline YOUR children).  If I thought sexual thoughts about children I would also avoid contact with them.

But you should also note that there are parents out there, like PP, who are capable of spanking his child without immediately being overcome with sexual thoughts over their own children.

[Shanghaiski]

"We used to spank our kids as a punishment, now we just read them Sigmund Freud. Once, they got so bad we switched to Kant. Now, they are model citizens. And engineers."

[Justin Kissel]

Once, they got so bad we switched to Kant.

I'm surprised the frustration and boredom didn't cause permanent scarring! 

[Shanghaiski]

Once, they got so bad we switched to Kant.

I'm surprised the frustration and boredom didn't cause permanent scarring! 

Well, after they finished writing on the floor and scratching out their eyeballs, they went right to sleep.

[Mokek Kwe]

I guess I can understand why you don't spank your kids (you still haven't answered as to HOW you discipline YOUR children).  If I thought sexual thoughts about children I would also avoid contact with them.

But you should also note that there are parents out there, like PP, who are capable of spanking his child without immediately being overcome with sexual thoughts over their own children.

   I did describe how I discipline my child without spanking her.

[vamrat]

I guess I can understand why you don't spank your kids (you still haven't answered as to HOW you discipline YOUR children).  If I thought sexual thoughts about children I would also avoid contact with them.

But you should also note that there are parents out there, like PP, who are capable of spanking his child without immediately being overcome with sexual thoughts over their own children.

   I did describe how I discipline my child without spanking her.

What in the context would lead you to believe that I directed that comment to you and not someone else?  

Hint - he was the last person in the string of quotes.

Hint 2 - I asked him three times how he disciplined his kids.

Hint 3 - His name starts with an "r" and ends with "akovsky".

 

[Mokek Kwe]

I guess I can understand why you don't spank your kids (you still haven't answered as to HOW you discipline YOUR children).  If I thought sexual thoughts about children I would also avoid contact with them.

But you should also note that there are parents out there, like PP, who are capable of spanking his child without immediately being overcome with sexual thoughts over their own children.

   I did describe how I discipline my child without spanking her.

What in the context would lead you to believe that I directed that comment to you and not someone else?  

Hint - he was the last person in the string of quotes.

Hint 2 - I asked him three times how he disciplined his kids.

Hint 3 - His name starts with an "r" and ends with "akovsky".

 

So is your point to single someone out, and not to actually learn how to discipline without spanking? I wasn't sure of your intent by asking that question.

[vamrat]

I guess I can understand why you don't spank your kids (you still haven't answered as to HOW you discipline YOUR children).  If I thought sexual thoughts about children I would also avoid contact with them.

But you should also note that there are parents out there, like PP, who are capable of spanking his child without immediately being overcome with sexual thoughts over their own children.

   I did describe how I discipline my child without spanking her.

What in the context would lead you to believe that I directed that comment to you and not someone else?  

Hint - he was the last person in the string of quotes.

Hint 2 - I asked him three times how he disciplined his kids.

Hint 3 - His name starts with an "r" and ends with "akovsky".

 

So is your point to single someone out, and not to actually learn how to discipline without spanking? I wasn't sure of your intent by asking that question.

You have my intent precisely.  See, I respect your opinion regarding spanking even though I disagree with it.  You have tested your opinion and I have not.  I have a sneaking suspicion that the person I was singling out has absolutely no idea how to raise children even though he likes to chide actual parents on how they do so.   

[Mokek Kwe]

I guess I can understand why you don't spank your kids (you still haven't answered as to HOW you discipline YOUR children).  If I thought sexual thoughts about children I would also avoid contact with them.

But you should also note that there are parents out there, like PP, who are capable of spanking his child without immediately being overcome with sexual thoughts over their own children.

   I did describe how I discipline my child without spanking her.

What in the context would lead you to believe that I directed that comment to you and not someone else? 

Hint - he was the last person in the string of quotes.

Hint 2 - I asked him three times how he disciplined his kids.

Hint 3 - His name starts with an "r" and ends with "akovsky".

 

So is your point to single someone out, and not to actually learn how to discipline without spanking? I wasn't sure of your intent by asking that question.

You have my intent precisely.  See, I respect your opinion regarding spanking even though I disagree with it.  You have tested your opinion and I have not.  I have a sneaking suspicion that the person I was singling out has absolutely no idea how to raise children even though he likes to chide actual parents on how they do so.   

*shrug* It could be possible that he is speaking from a place on how he, from experience, knows how his *actual parents* could have parented him in a way that wouldn't have embittered him.

I have tried spanking and I have tried other (IME more constructive and positive) methods. Finding other resources for your parenting toolbox is never a bad idea, because one day when your child is bigger, stronger, and smarter than you are, you will have nothing but your mutual trust and relationship to fall back on. Best of luck.

[Kerdy]

Each child is different, unique and therefore requiring their own style of being parented.  Anyone with more than one child can attest to this.  Some children need regular spankings, some rarely, other never.  It isn't all in who the parent is as much as who the child is.  I have one child which if I need to spank, I feel odd because its so rare an event.  I have another child which spanking was once a regular occurance.  As they grow, they learn and adapt, which hopefully lessens the requirement of spanking.  From personal experience, at a certain age, spanking is useless and a punch in the mouth is required.  In other words, when I was 17, I learned I wasn't big enough to curse at my father.  It only took one lesson.  I still don't curse at my father.

Each child is unique and to disregard spanking at a potential discipline severely limits your parenting options.  Be prepared if you need to, hope you never do.

[orthonorm]

Wow.

One of the saddest threads I've seen here yet.

[yeshuaisiam]

Each child is different, unique and therefore requiring their own style of being parented.  Anyone with more than one child can attest to this.  Some children need regular spankings, some rarely, other never.  It isn't all in who the parent is as much as who the child is.  I have one child which if I need to spank, I feel odd because its so rare an event.  I have another child which spanking was once a regular occurance.  As they grow, they learn and adapt, which hopefully lessens the requirement of spanking.  From personal experience, at a certain age, spanking is useless and a punch in the mouth is required.  In other words, when I was 17, I learned I wasn't big enough to curse at my father.  It only took one lesson.  I still don't curse at my father.

Each child is unique and to disregard spanking at a potential discipline severely limits your parenting options.  Be prepared if you need to, hope you never do.

Kerdy, how many children do you have?

As I've stated, my wife and I have 5 children. 
I was raised with 4 siblings.

All of my children, myself, and my siblings were spanked.

We all have a tight family still, I respect my parents, all the siblings talk with one another.  Spanking did not harm us.  I am not bitter over any of the numerous spankings I received (with and without a belt, paddle, spoon). 

Proverbs, 13:24. "He that spareth his rod hateth his son:

Let's go literal - If you hate your son, you spare the rod.

So what do you do if you do not hate your son?  You do not spare the rod.

"but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

The definition of Chastise by merriam webster dictionary is:
 1: to inflict punishment on (as by whipping)

There you have it.
If you believe in the books of the bible, if you believe in this wisdom, there is no more argument.

Without any means of boast, we are constantly given compliments on our children's behavior.  They do not fear me.  They do not fear my wife either.   They do not directly defy us either or they know they'll get a spanking.  Yes, they make mistakes, and for that we correct them vocally.  But in defiance, or directly not following what they are told to do, yes they get a spanking.

The oddest thing about the entire situation is 15 minutes after they get it, they are very well behaved and already having fun with their siblings & animals.  Me.... Trust me, it hurts me a lot worse than them.  No parent enjoys this chastisement.   But it is necessary.   We see the evidence of spoiled embittered youth all around us, mainly from parents who do not SPANK their child.   (I put SPANK in caps because some parents just pat on the hind end and say "no".... That's not spanking.)

I once heard a mentor of mine say:
"A spanking is a little pain now to save a lot of pain later".

[rakovsky]

In Christianity we can make a "crossing over" from ways of punishment- as it is said the Old Testament Law is good but its justice brings death to all as we all fail- into the ways of compassion and redemption.

We are blessed with the chance to live by the redemption. Just as our heavenly Father forgives and have mercy on us and we seek it from him whereby he removes punishment from us, we should act accordingly to our own children. As it is said "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespasses." We no longer live in a lifestyle of punishment and punishing but seek always mercy to show to others.

Forgive me where I have not.

[Shanghaiski]

Wow.

One of the saddest threads I've seen here yet.

Maybe you could contribute something to make it happier. Statler and Waldorf are more entertaining than Eyeore.

[yeshuaisiam]

In Christianity we can make a "crossing over" from ways of punishment- as it is said the Old Testament Law is good but its justice brings death to all as we all fail- into the ways of compassion and redemption.

We are blessed with the chance to live by the redemption. Just as our heavenly Father forgives and have mercy on us and we seek it from him whereby he removes punishment from us, we should act accordingly to our own children. As it is said "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespasses." We no longer live in a lifestyle of punishment and punishing but seek always mercy to show to others.

Forgive me where I have not.

Yep, say that to those making a marketplace out of the temple.

[Kerdy]

Each child is different, unique and therefore requiring their own style of being parented.  Anyone with more than one child can attest to this.  Some children need regular spankings, some rarely, other never.  It isn't all in who the parent is as much as who the child is.  I have one child which if I need to spank, I feel odd because its so rare an event.  I have another child which spanking was once a regular occurance.  As they grow, they learn and adapt, which hopefully lessens the requirement of spanking.  From personal experience, at a certain age, spanking is useless and a punch in the mouth is required.  In other words, when I was 17, I learned I wasn't big enough to curse at my father.  It only took one lesson.  I still don't curse at my father.

Each child is unique and to disregard spanking at a potential discipline severely limits your parenting options.  Be prepared if you need to, hope you never do.

Kerdy, how many children do you have?

As I've stated, my wife and I have 5 children. 
I was raised with 4 siblings.

All of my children, myself, and my siblings were spanked.

We all have a tight family still, I respect my parents, all the siblings talk with one another.  Spanking did not harm us.  I am not bitter over any of the numerous spankings I received (with and without a belt, paddle, spoon). 

Proverbs, 13:24. "He that spareth his rod hateth his son:

Let's go literal - If you hate your son, you spare the rod.

So what do you do if you do not hate your son?  You do not spare the rod.

"but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

The definition of Chastise by merriam webster dictionary is:
 1: to inflict punishment on (as by whipping)

There you have it.
If you believe in the books of the bible, if you believe in this wisdom, there is no more argument.

Without any means of boast, we are constantly given compliments on our children's behavior.  They do not fear me.  They do not fear my wife either.   They do not directly defy us either or they know they'll get a spanking.  Yes, they make mistakes, and for that we correct them vocally.  But in defiance, or directly not following what they are told to do, yes they get a spanking.

The oddest thing about the entire situation is 15 minutes after they get it, they are very well behaved and already having fun with their siblings & animals.  Me.... Trust me, it hurts me a lot worse than them.  No parent enjoys this chastisement.   But it is necessary.   We see the evidence of spoiled embittered youth all around us, mainly from parents who do not SPANK their child.   (I put SPANK in caps because some parents just pat on the hind end and say "no".... That's not spanking.)

I once heard a mentor of mine say:
"A spanking is a little pain now to save a lot of pain later".

You realize I advocate for spanking, yes?

[rakovsky]

In Christianity we can make a "crossing over" from ways of punishment- as it is said the Old Testament Law is good but its justice brings death to all as we all fail- into the ways of compassion and redemption.

We are blessed with the chance to live by the redemption. Just as our heavenly Father forgives and have mercy on us and we seek it from him whereby he removes punishment from us, we should act accordingly to our own children. As it is said "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespasses." We no longer live in a lifestyle of punishment and punishing but seek always mercy to show to others.

Forgive me where I have not.

Yep, say that to those making a marketplace out of the temple.

Dear Yeshuaisiam,

Jesus several time spoke to those in the Temple about His good news of redemption, forgiveness, and removal of sin and punishment. However, they rejected his message and punished Him with scourging, and execution. Thus Isaiah says: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

I believe you are implying that Jesus punished the moneylenders with scourging, but I doubt this interpretation. Adolf Hitler focused on this passage, seeing Jesus Christ not primarily as a punished sufferer but as a physical attacker:

• "My feelings as a Christian points me to... the man who... was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders." (Adolf Hitler, April 12, 1922, Speech in "My New Order")

One of the main differences I see is that Jesus used the lash to move and drive out animals and their handlers. Once my grandfather and I were riding horses and we hit them with sticks to drive them along and make them run faster. It does not mean we were punishing the horses, does it?

A second difference is that it was an intervention to cleanse the Temple. Imagine if a big person was harming the sanctity of your church by whipping a little kid with a belt in the middle of liturgy? I think people's gut reactions would reflect that this was not a sacred act. At the least they would tell the abuser to exit the church, and if the abuser refused, they might force him out. But in violently pushing him out, the parishioners would not be inflicting "corporal punishment" on the abuser.

Third, it doesn't actually say Jesus hit any of the moneylenders with His lash, and the image of him actually doing so could seem to contradict Isaiah 53: "He committed no violence"

Another good analogy is between Jesus driving out the moneylenders and animals and his common driving out of demons. Just as Jesus was not "punishing" or even used physical pain on the demons when He cleansed victims of them by driving them out, I doubt he was punishing the moneylenders by driving them out. In fact, just as He appeared before the demons and commanded them out, and they recognized Him and his power, it makes sense that what happened in the Temple was that He commanded the moneylenders to leave and they saw Him as a powerful, if not threatening figure, and obeyed.

Fourth, the moneylenders, like people in the middle of committing an abusive attack, did not realize that what they were doing was wrong. Even if you interpret Christ's act as physical punishment, it still does not mean physical punishment as often imposed. In Christianity, the hope is that when we repent, the Lord will forgive and not punish us. Likewise, if other people repent of their actions, the Lord erases their guilt, they seek to overcome those acts and change, and they have the Christian hope that they will not be punished. Instead of dangerous vipers who the shepherd drives away with His rod, they are like strayed sheep who the shepherd rejoices when He finds.

So Jesus was intervening to drive out animals and their handlers, who did not see their mistake. He was not inflicting punishment by hurting them after the intervention was over or after they saw their mistake. He was not performing "bottom smacking" or other humiliating acts, and it's doubtful he even struck anyone in the act.


And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
In this picture, the staff on the left parallels the shepherd putting the attacking hawk from the strayed (sinned) sheep.

[Punch]

In Christianity we can make a "crossing over" from ways of punishment- as it is said the Old Testament Law is good but its justice brings death to all as we all fail- into the ways of compassion and redemption.

We are blessed with the chance to live by the redemption. Just as our heavenly Father forgives and have mercy on us and we seek it from him whereby he removes punishment from us, we should act accordingly to our own children. As it is said "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespasses." We no longer live in a lifestyle of punishment and punishing but seek always mercy to show to others.

Forgive me where I have not.

Yep, say that to those making a marketplace out of the temple.

Dear Yeshuaisiam,

Jesus several time spoke to those in the Temple about His good news of redemption, forgiveness, and removal of sin and punishment. However, they rejected his message and punished Him with scourging, and execution. Thus Isaiah says: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

I believe you are implying that Jesus punished the moneylenders with scourging, but I doubt this interpretation. Adolf Hitler focused on this passage, seeing Jesus Christ not primarily as a punished sufferer but as a physical attacker:

• "My feelings as a Christian points me to... the man who... was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders." (Adolf Hitler, April 12, 1922, Speech in "My New Order")

One of the main differences I see is that Jesus used the lash to move and drive out animals and their handlers. Once my grandfather and I were riding horses and we hit them with sticks to drive them along and make them run faster. It does not mean we were punishing the horses, does it?

A second difference is that it was an intervention to cleanse the Temple. Imagine if a big person was harming the sanctity of your church by whipping a little kid with a belt in the middle of liturgy? I think people's gut reactions would reflect that this was not a sacred act. At the least they would tell the abuser to exit the church, and if the abuser refused, they might force him out. But in violently pushing him out, the parishioners would not be inflicting "corporal punishment" on the abuser.

Third, it doesn't actually say Jesus hit any of the moneylenders with His lash, and the image of him actually doing so could seem to contradict Isaiah 53: "He committed no violence"

Another good analogy is between Jesus driving out the moneylenders and animals and his common driving out of demons. Just as Jesus was not "punishing" or even used physical pain on the demons when He cleansed victims of them by driving them out, I doubt he was punishing the moneylenders by driving them out. In fact, just as He appeared before the demons and commanded them out, and they recognized Him and his power, it makes sense that what happened in the Temple was that He commanded the moneylenders to leave and they saw Him as a powerful, if not threatening figure, and obeyed.

Fourth, the moneylenders, like people in the middle of committing an abusive attack, did not realize that what they were doing was wrong. Even if you interpret Christ's act as physical punishment, it still does not mean physical punishment as often imposed. In Christianity, the hope is that when we repent, the Lord will forgive and not punish us. Likewise, if other people repent of their actions, the Lord erases their guilt, they seek to overcome those acts and change, and they have the Christian hope that they will not be punished. Instead of dangerous vipers who the shepherd drives away with His rod, they are like strayed sheep who the shepherd rejoices when He finds.

So Jesus was intervening to drive out animals and their handlers, who did not see their mistake. He was not inflicting punishment by hurting them after the intervention was over or after they saw their mistake. He was not performing "bottom smacking" or other humiliating acts, and it's doubtful he even struck anyone in the act.


And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
In this picture, the staff on the left parallels the shepherd putting the attacking hawk from the strayed (sinned) sheep.

Wow!  Someone really had to have a vivid imagination and a disregard for most commentaries on the topic to come up with that load.

[rakovsky]

Another good analogy is between Jesus driving out the moneylenders and animals and his common driving out of demons.

On a sidenote, the Evangelist Matthew used the same word to describe Jesus cleansing the temple as he used to describe Jesus exorcising demons: "And Jesus went into the temple of God and cast out (ἐξέβαλεν) all them that sold and bought in the temple and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of them that sold doves". (Matthew 21:12)

"When the even was come they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils and he cast out (ἐξέβαλεν) the spirits with his word and healed all that were sick" (Matthew 8:16)

Someone really had to have... a disregard for most commentaries on the topic to come up with that load.

And Punch, if I have opposed Church writings on the cleansing of the Temple by comparing it to driving out animals and demons instead of punishing children as discipline, please let me know. On the broader topic of punishment, one can find views ranging from st. Augustine's support of the death penalty to St. Ambrose's opposition to it. I believe Jesus encourages us to seek to give up punishment and live in the Redemption.

[orthonorm]

Another good analogy is between Jesus driving out the moneylenders and animals and his common driving out of demons.

On a sidenote, the Evangelist Matthew used the same word to describe Jesus cleansing the temple as he used to describe Jesus exorcising demons: "And Jesus went into the temple of God and cast out (ἐξέβαλεν) all them that sold and bought in the temple and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of them that sold doves". (Matthew 21:12)

"When the even was come they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils and he cast out (ἐξέβαλεν) the spirits with his word and healed all that were sick" (Matthew 8:16)

Someone really had to have... a disregard for most commentaries on the topic to come up with that load.

And Punch, if I have opposed Church writings on the cleansing of the Temple by comparing it to driving out animals and demons instead of punishing children as discipline, please let me know. On the broader topic of punishment, one can find views ranging from st. Augustine's support of the death penalty to St. Ambrose's opposition to it. I believe Jesus encourages us to seek to give up punishment and live in the Redemption.

Rakovsky, you almost always offer something of weight to consider.

You are a certainly a careful reader.