Poll

Should children be spanked?

Absolutely yes!
36 (18.4%)
In some cases, yes.
88 (44.9%)
Maybe.
16 (8.2%)
No, probably not.
25 (12.8%)
Absolutely not!
31 (15.8%)

Total Members Voted: 196

Author Topic: Spanking - Yea or Nay?  (Read 154574 times)

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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #540 on: October 13, 2014, 06:21:04 PM »
Quote
Inside the Unholy World of ‘Christian Domestic Discipline’
Brandy Zadrozny
On a pain scale of one to 10, Chelsea ranks the epidural-free birth of her child as a six. Her husband’s spankings? Those are an eight.

When Chelsea gets flummoxed by a question, she asks Clint for guidance in a voice so high-pitched that it belies her 28 years: “Honey, how long does the spanking usually last?” (About 5 minutes, Clint says.)

...Foremost, that the Bible commands a husband to be the head of the household, and the wife must submit to him, in every way, or face painful chastisement.

Where does the Bible supposedly say that? I don't think it does.
Quote
Some practice “maintenance spanking,” wherein good girls are slapped on a schedule to remind them who’s boss...

As they see it, they’re fighting (and losing) a culture war against liberalism and feminism. There are no brick-and-mortar churches where adherents gather to pray and paddle.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/19/spanking-for-jesus-inside-the-unholy-world-of-christian-domestic-discipline.html
They are just making up their own non-Orthodox religion.
what on earth is wrong with these people?
That is a rather strange way to blend religion and weird sexual fetish.
Yes. But spanking has a sexual aspect as biological studies show, although probably people rarely realize that.

Um, that's actually what Trisagion said. And is it always sexual?

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #541 on: October 13, 2014, 06:23:18 PM »
"He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes"

Proverbs 13:24 KJV

Letting them run the gauntlet is the only proper way to administer the rod.

You don't have to thank me for this great piece of advice.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 06:34:46 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Arachne

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #542 on: October 13, 2014, 06:35:51 PM »
Um, that's actually what Trisagion said. And is it always sexual?

How about renting A Dangerous Method for next movie night?
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #543 on: October 13, 2014, 06:40:17 PM »
"He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes"

Proverbs 13:24 KJV
That's the Old Testament, Sheep100. Christ noted the things the Old Testament said, like An eye for an eye, but then he gave a commandment to perform mercy instead of those commands.

This is why, although the Old Testament might say, for example, to cane women, we do not do those things.

In fact, one of the core differences between the Testaments is that the old law is based much more on Law, punishment, revenge, while the gospel focuses on mercy, compassion, and forgiveness. That is essential to the Christian life. The gospel is replete with examples of where Old Testament demands are overcome with the Greater command of the gospel of Mercy.

Take for example Galatians 2:19: "For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God."

Another example is how Jesus spared a prostitute from being killed even though the Old law demanded it. Jesus' principle of mercy meant that the punishments of the Old law are to be forgiven, as He said, 70 times 7.

Now, Jesus did not go through and explain why or how every passages in the Old Testament has been overcome by the teaching of mercy, but someone who is living on Christ's spirit of grace is supposed to have a merciful spirit that will perform mercy instead.

There are plenty of people who unfortunately have not really taken Christ's instructions and spirit about this to heart. I think that most Christians are affected by His teachings, but not fully. Christ did not say "Don't follow the rules of ritual cleanliness", or "Don't perform atonement sacrifice in the Temple", either. However that has been easier for people to avoid than applying his teaching of mercy to people's children and family relations.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #544 on: October 13, 2014, 06:50:29 PM »
Um, that's actually what Trisagion said. And is it always sexual?

How about renting A Dangerous Method for next movie night?
Sure, it has a sexual aspect, whether recognized or not, because it means stimulating a sexual zone. Why else use the Lordosis position?

Probably there are lots of people who do it out of cultural reasons, but that doesn't mean that the aspect is not in some way present. When they do it, they do not necessarily have a sexual motivation.

To give an example, the people who do "CDD" above claim that it's not sexual. However, commentors on this thread doubt that. Why? Because they have an instinct that the activity is inherently so.

To give an analogy, it is like asking whether photos cut out of Playboy are inherently sexual. Some people might not think so - indeed they can match common photos used in mainstream advertising. On the other hand, some people will say that those advertisements are inherently sexual, whether people recognize it or not, and are being used to sell the product. So it's an interesting debate.

I think that the fact that this thread has 544 replies reflects that the topic has a basic unrecognized sexual draw as a side aspect. I don't think an everyday thread on "Time out" would have nearly as many replies.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 06:53:12 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #545 on: October 13, 2014, 06:51:01 PM »
Justin should be spanked for starting this ;D
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Offline Arachne

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #546 on: October 13, 2014, 06:52:57 PM »
Justin should be spanked for starting this ;D

He would enjoy it too much. :angel:
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #547 on: October 13, 2014, 06:58:52 PM »
Um, that's actually what Trisagion said. And is it always sexual?

How about renting A Dangerous Method for next movie night?
Sure, it has a sexual aspect, whether recognized or not, because it means stimulating a sexual zone. Why else use the Lordosis position?

Probably there are lots of people who do it out of cultural reasons, but that doesn't mean that the aspect is not in some way present. When they do it, they do not necessarily have a sexual motivation.

To give an example, the people who do "CDD" above claim that it's not sexual. However, commentors on this thread doubt that. Why? Because they have an instinct that the activity is inherently so.

To give an analogy, it is like asking whether photos cut out of Playboy are inherently sexual. Some people might not think so - indeed they can match common photos used in mainstream advertising. On the other hand, some people will say that those advertisements are inherently sexual, whether people recognize it or not, and are being used to sell the product. So it's an interesting debate.

I think that the fact that this thread has 544 replies reflects that the topic has a basic unrecognized sexual draw as a side aspect. I don't think an everyday thread on "Time out" would have nearly as many replies.

I'd wager that spanking your child is about as sexualized as washing your child, on average. At least, I assume we're talking about spanking children.

Offline sheep100

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #548 on: October 13, 2014, 07:01:40 PM »
I voted Absolutely Not!

I would never lay a hand on my son or any child for I would be investigated by CPS and carted off to jail for a very long time.  Teach a child how to negotiate and he/she will go far in life and make friends.  Teach a child violence and he/she will reciprocate with all kinds of violence against oneself and others.

I really don't know how some of you can justify spanking children.  I've never seen Supernanny lay a hand on any child.   ::)

King Solomon from the Word of God disagrees with you:  "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."  Proverbs 23:13-14.  



I wonder why solomon didn't mind his own business about his own salvation, and started lecturing others how to discipline instead.

Have you no respect for the word of God?

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #549 on: October 13, 2014, 07:06:40 PM »
What the hell am I reading?
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #550 on: October 13, 2014, 07:08:09 PM »
What the hell am I reading?

Congratulations you've just proven that you think corporal punishment is well sexy, at least according to rakovsky.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #551 on: October 13, 2014, 07:08:17 PM »
I voted Absolutely Not!

I would never lay a hand on my son or any child for I would be investigated by CPS and carted off to jail for a very long time.  Teach a child how to negotiate and he/she will go far in life and make friends.  Teach a child violence and he/she will reciprocate with all kinds of violence against oneself and others.

I really don't know how some of you can justify spanking children.  I've never seen Supernanny lay a hand on any child.   ::)

King Solomon from the Word of God disagrees with you:  "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."  Proverbs 23:13-14.  



I wonder why solomon didn't mind his own business about his own salvation, and started lecturing others how to discipline instead.

Have you no respect for the word of God?
Paul's writing in Romans is a discourse on how we should avoid following the penalties of the Old Testament, like in Proverbs. Paul's idea is that if we strictly demand the law, then we are all guilty of breaking it at one point.

Romans 2:12 ...as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Christ used a similar logic. The Church teaches that the pharisees at the stoning had themselves broken laws. Christ calls us to enact mercy rather than following the Old Testament rules of punishment. Paul follows a similar logic, asking us to follow grace instead of the Old law.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 07:08:38 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #552 on: October 13, 2014, 07:10:09 PM »
I voted Absolutely Not!

I would never lay a hand on my son or any child for I would be investigated by CPS and carted off to jail for a very long time.  Teach a child how to negotiate and he/she will go far in life and make friends.  Teach a child violence and he/she will reciprocate with all kinds of violence against oneself and others.

I really don't know how some of you can justify spanking children.  I've never seen Supernanny lay a hand on any child.   ::)

King Solomon from the Word of God disagrees with you:  "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."  Proverbs 23:13-14.  



I wonder why solomon didn't mind his own business about his own salvation, and started lecturing others how to discipline instead.

Have you no respect for the word of God?
Paul's writing in Romans is a discourse on how we should avoid following the penalties of the Old Testament, like in Proverbs. Paul's idea is that if we strictly demand the law, then we are all guilty of breaking it at one point.

12 ...as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Christ used a similar logic. The Church teaches that the pharisees at the stoning had themselves broken laws. Christ calls us to enact mercy rather than following the Old Testament rules of punishment. Paul follows a similar logic, asking us to follow grace instead of the Old law.

Oh gimme a break. Christ also said to give all our possessions to the poor. Which one of us has done that? It's an ideal we aim for, not a reality we can expect to achieve right now. In the meantime, kids continue to be bratty and I don't think it's so terrible to give them a smack now and then when they won't listen to words.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #553 on: October 13, 2014, 07:10:42 PM »
What the hell am I reading?

Congratulations you've just proven that you think corporal punishment is well sexy, at least according to rakovsky.
Personally I wish the thread would close. If this was a 100% boring, mundane, nonviolent, nonharmful practice, it would have about 10 replies total or less, like "Time out" would.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #554 on: October 13, 2014, 07:11:56 PM »
What the hell am I reading?

Congratulations you've just proven that you think corporal punishment is well sexy, at least according to rakovsky.
Personally I wish the thread would close. If this was a 100% boring, mundane, nonviolent, nonharmful practice, it would have about 10 replies total or less, like "Time out" would.

And yet you keep posting on it. Spare me the sanctimony, please. I happen to think the topic fascinating and you Freudians can make of that what you will.

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #555 on: October 13, 2014, 07:15:53 PM »
What the hell am I reading?

Congratulations you've just proven that you think corporal punishment is well sexy, at least according to rakovsky.

Well, I enjoy "rough recreation" when and as I can get it, but I think it is a stretch to say that all spanking of children is sexual unless it's in some Orthonormian sense of "we are all sexual beings and everything we do is sexual by default".  By that definition, though, working as a funeral director is a sexual act.   
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline biro

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #556 on: October 13, 2014, 07:17:07 PM »
What the hell am I reading?

Congratulations you've just proven that you think corporal punishment is well sexy, at least according to rakovsky.

Well, I enjoy "rough recreation" when and as I can get it, but I think it is a stretch to say that all spanking of children is sexual unless it's in some Orthonormian sense of "we are all sexual beings and everything we do is sexual by default".  By that definition, though, working as a funeral director is a sexual act.   

Eeeeeeeeew.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #557 on: October 13, 2014, 07:18:15 PM »
I voted Absolutely Not!

King Solomon from the Word of God disagrees with you:  "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."  Proverbs 23:13-14.  



Have you no respect for the word of God?
Paul's writing in Romans is a discourse on how we should avoid following the penalties of the Old Testament, like in Proverbs. Paul's idea is that if we strictly demand the law, then we are all guilty of breaking it at one point.

12 ...as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Christ used a similar logic. The Church teaches that the pharisees at the stoning had themselves broken laws. Christ calls us to enact mercy rather than following the Old Testament rules of punishment. Paul follows a similar logic, asking us to follow grace instead of the Old law.

Oh gimme a break. Christ also said to give all our possessions to the poor. Which one of us has done that? It's an ideal we aim for, not a reality we can expect to achieve right now. In the meantime, kids continue to be bratty and I don't think it's so terrible to give them a smack now and then when they won't listen to words.

It sounds like you accept my larger point, Jonathan. Sheep100 pointed to the Old Testament's demand to flog children (it also says to cane prostitutes and fools).
Christ's reasoning, on the other hand, is to forgive people and be merciful like God is. Your reply to my claim is that Christ's words are an ideal to aim for. Take for example christ's words: Blessed are the mecy for they shall obtain mercy.

The conclusion must be that while the Old Testament demands punishing people, mercy is what we should ideally aim for instead. If we are aiming for something different, the Old Testament, like what Sheep cited, is no longer a law or requirement over us and we ideally aim to act differently than that.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #558 on: October 13, 2014, 07:19:52 PM »
What the hell am I reading?

Congratulations you've just proven that you think corporal punishment is well sexy, at least according to rakovsky.
Personally I wish the thread would close. If this was a 100% boring, mundane, nonviolent, nonharmful practice, it would have about 10 replies total or less, like "Time out" would.
I happen to think the topic fascinating...
Yep, more proving the point. Practically nobody thinks that Time outs, corner time, taking away allowances, etc. are "fascinating".
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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #559 on: October 13, 2014, 07:20:41 PM »
What the hell am I reading?

Congratulations you've just proven that you think corporal punishment is well sexy, at least according to rakovsky.

Well, I enjoy "rough recreation" when and as I can get it, but I think it is a stretch to say that all spanking of children is sexual unless it's in some Orthonormian sense of "we are all sexual beings and everything we do is sexual by default".  By that definition, though, working as a funeral director is a sexual act.   



*tries to cover her eyes and then realizes its too late*


really?   way way too much info....and ick.


I am going to go watch something cleaner to get my mind off this whole topic.....maybe this requires porn......
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #560 on: October 13, 2014, 07:36:41 PM »
I voted Absolutely Not!

King Solomon from the Word of God disagrees with you:  "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."  Proverbs 23:13-14.  



Have you no respect for the word of God?
Paul's writing in Romans is a discourse on how we should avoid following the penalties of the Old Testament, like in Proverbs. Paul's idea is that if we strictly demand the law, then we are all guilty of breaking it at one point.

12 ...as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Christ used a similar logic. The Church teaches that the pharisees at the stoning had themselves broken laws. Christ calls us to enact mercy rather than following the Old Testament rules of punishment. Paul follows a similar logic, asking us to follow grace instead of the Old law.

Oh gimme a break. Christ also said to give all our possessions to the poor. Which one of us has done that? It's an ideal we aim for, not a reality we can expect to achieve right now. In the meantime, kids continue to be bratty and I don't think it's so terrible to give them a smack now and then when they won't listen to words.

It sounds like you accept my larger point, Jonathan. Sheep100 pointed to the Old Testament's demand to flog children (it also says to cane prostitutes and fools).
Christ's reasoning, on the other hand, is to forgive people and be merciful like God is. Your reply to my claim is that Christ's words are an ideal to aim for. Take for example christ's words: Blessed are the mecy for they shall obtain mercy.

The conclusion must be that while the Old Testament demands punishing people, mercy is what we should ideally aim for instead. If we are aiming for something different, the Old Testament, like what Sheep cited, is no longer a law or requirement over us and we ideally aim to act differently than that.

Well why stop at no spanking then? Why not avoid all punishment and just reward the kid no matter how he behaves? Of course you need to punish. Mercy only works as a remedy if it is in response to remorse. You need various grades of penalty for the times when the kid is just not sorry for what he's done or keeps misbehaving. I don't see why corporal punishment can't fit in there somewhere. It's this blanket ban on corporal punishment that confuses me. What's so terrible about it if it just causes a little momentary pain? I'm not talking about causing actual injury here.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 07:37:26 PM by Jonathan Gress »

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #561 on: October 13, 2014, 08:33:55 PM »
5+ years later and I still wouldn't lay a hand on my child.  In a few years, I might have to worry about my child laying his hands on me....   :o

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #562 on: October 13, 2014, 09:05:23 PM »
I voted Absolutely Not!

King Solomon from the Word of God disagrees with you:  "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."  Proverbs 23:13-14.  



Have you no respect for the word of God?
Paul's writing in Romans is a discourse on how we should avoid following the penalties of the Old Testament, like in Proverbs. Paul's idea is that if we strictly demand the law, then we are all guilty of breaking it at one point.

12 ...as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Christ used a similar logic. The Church teaches that the pharisees at the stoning had themselves broken laws. Christ calls us to enact mercy rather than following the Old Testament rules of punishment. Paul follows a similar logic, asking us to follow grace instead of the Old law.

Oh gimme a break. Christ also said to give all our possessions to the poor. Which one of us has done that? It's an ideal we aim for, not a reality we can expect to achieve right now. In the meantime, kids continue to be bratty and I don't think it's so terrible to give them a smack now and then when they won't listen to words.

It sounds like you accept my larger point, Jonathan. Sheep100 pointed to the Old Testament's demand to flog children (it also says to cane prostitutes and fools).
Christ's reasoning, on the other hand, is to forgive people and be merciful like God is. Your reply to my claim is that Christ's words are an ideal to aim for. Take for example christ's words: Blessed are the mecy for they shall obtain mercy.

The conclusion must be that while the Old Testament demands punishing people, mercy is what we should ideally aim for instead. If we are aiming for something different, the Old Testament, like what Sheep cited, is no longer a law or requirement over us and we ideally aim to act differently than that.

Well why stop at no spanking then? Why not avoid all punishment

...Of course you need to punish.  
Some people do. There is a website called Parenting without Punishing, run by a Vietnam War veteran and professor. His students did not believe him when he told them about this, so he brought his kids in and they impressed the students with their politeness.

Anyway, I am not demanding that no one under any circumstances use any punishment of kids. Rather, I am debunking Sheep100's suggestion that we are compelled to follow Old Testament rules about caning children, because Christ tells us to act with maximum forgiveness regardless of the OT.


Also, I understand that you can remove people from bad environments, society, or give cooling down periods (eg. imprisonment or time out) for safety reasons for society. Imprisonment can be considered punishment, I suppose, but under better prison conditions it can just be considered an alternate way to reform people without trying to hurt them.

Quote
and just reward the kid no matter how he behaves?
Removing negative punishments does not mean affirmatively rewarding someone.

Quote
Mercy only works as a remedy if it is in response to remorse.
No. Jesus' freeing of the prostitute was not conditioned on remorse. Theoretically, even US law aims at enacting a certain level of mercy to the unrepentant, aiming at only what it considers humane punishments, even if the criminal wasn't humane or remorseful.
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You need various grades of penalty for the times when the kid is just not sorry for what he's done or keeps misbehaving.
OK.

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I don't see why corporal punishment can't fit in there somewhere.
People can use nonviolent punishment without hitting someone. The avoidance goes under the same principle as avoiding inflicting pain in the criminal justice system, on pets, or on spouses like the so called Christian Domestic Discipline does.

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It's this blanket ban on corporal punishment that confuses me. What's so terrible about it if it just causes a little momentary pain? I'm not talking about causing actual injury here.
It's cruel, unnecessary, humiliating, and sexually dangerous. It's the same principle of why it is wrong for a policeman or spouse to strike the other person. Just because it's "momentary pain" doesn't make it OK. The harm can be both physical and psychologically traumatic, even though for many people it usually doesn't appear to be. It's worth avoiding because of the 10% of people who are damaged by it and end up getting fetishes or hitting others.

Also. typically, yes, hitting another person with an object usually causes some injury or risk thereof, typically bruises or redness (broken capillaries), but not only.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 09:06:48 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #563 on: October 13, 2014, 09:10:25 PM »
We increasingly frown on violence, even in the form of corporal punishment, and yet we are becoming increasingly sexually perverted. I don't buy the causal connection, sorry.

Offline Maria

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #564 on: October 13, 2014, 09:16:55 PM »
We increasingly frown on violence, even in the form of corporal punishment, and yet we are becoming increasingly sexually perverted. I don't buy the causal connection, sorry.

One must rule out pornography too.

If we had a society that was free of porn and displays of sexual violence on movies and on TV (Criminal Minds come to mind), and that did not spank its youth but tried to use time out and other techniques, then perhaps our society would not be so messed up.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #565 on: October 13, 2014, 09:19:27 PM »
So I read part of this blog.  For as much as they claim it is not sexual, it definitely reads some some fringe fetish porno.

http://christiandomesticdiscipline.wordpress.com/
God bless!

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #566 on: October 13, 2014, 09:23:09 PM »
We increasingly frown on violence, even in the form of corporal punishment, and yet we are becoming increasingly sexually perverted. I don't buy the causal connection, sorry.

One must rule out pornography too.

If we had a society that was free of porn and displays of sexual violence on movies and on TV (Criminal Minds come to mind), and that did not spank its youth but tried to use time out and other techniques, then perhaps our society would not be so messed up.


The stories on Criminal Minds, are all based on real life incidents......

so its the other way round.....the show isn't -inspiring- the violence....
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #567 on: October 13, 2014, 09:28:35 PM »
We increasingly frown on violence, even in the form of corporal punishment, and yet we are becoming increasingly sexually perverted. I don't buy the causal connection, sorry.
Maybe there isn't a direct connection, Jonathan.
The Gospel of Christ revealed a life of peace that frowned on violence. Christ told Peter to put away his sword, because "He who lives by the sword will die by it". Christ's way of mercy, Paul's nonviolent obedience to the emperors' government, and the way of the saints, has contrasted with previous centuries of Israelite rebellion, fighting, and penal law. One theory is that Christ's new way reflects the Kingdom of Heaven.

But despite Christ's "frowning on violence" (and this is not to portray Christianity as compulsive pacifism) and penal laws, Christianity did not in any way increase "sexual perversion".

The rejection of violence today may be related to better science and understanding of psychology. Scientific knowledge increases and our government uses less violent punishment in its codes than it did 200 years ago. Slavery has been abolished in the last 150 years and there is less abuse of children tolerated today. It doesn't mean that there is some kind of direct link to increased perversion.

In my view, Yes, there is less caring about church life and people become more materialistic. Thus, there is from some people more tolerance of perversion. But it doesn't mean that all other trends in society that have grown in the last 150 years are bad. Take women's rights. There is a good side to it, even though a bad side is that family unity is less than before.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #568 on: October 13, 2014, 09:30:26 PM »
We increasingly frown on violence, even in the form of corporal punishment, and yet we are becoming increasingly sexually perverted. I don't buy the causal connection, sorry.

One must rule out pornography too.

If we had a society that was free of porn and displays of sexual violence on movies and on TV (Criminal Minds come to mind), and that did not spank its youth but tried to use time out and other techniques, then perhaps our society would not be so messed up.

Porn only exists because there's a demand for it.

Look, even the Amish spank their kids, and they're as pacifist as they come. I think we can teach kids to distinguish between wanton violence that is motivated by passion, and corrective violence that is motivated by love. We even believe that God chastises and punishes us to bring us to our senses, sometimes in ways that cause us pain and suffering. It's not an alien or un-Christian concept.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #569 on: October 13, 2014, 09:33:52 PM »
We increasingly frown on violence, even in the form of corporal punishment, and yet we are becoming increasingly sexually perverted. I don't buy the causal connection, sorry.
Maybe there isn't a direct connection, Jonathan.
The Gospel of Christ revealed a life of peace that frowned on violence. Christ told Peter to put away his sword, because "He who lives by the sword will die by it". Christ's way of mercy, Paul's nonviolent obedience to the emperors' government, and the way of the saints, has contrasted with previous centuries of Israelite rebellion, fighting, and penal law. One theory is that Christ's new way reflects the Kingdom of Heaven.

But despite Christ's "frowning on violence" (and this is not to portray Christianity as compulsive pacifism) and penal laws, Christianity did not in any way increase "sexual perversion".

The rejection of violence today may be related to better science and understanding of psychology. Scientific knowledge increases and our government uses less violent punishment in its codes than it did 200 years ago. Slavery has been abolished in the last 150 years and there is less abuse of children tolerated today. It doesn't mean that there is some kind of direct link to increased perversion.

In my view, Yes, there is less caring about church life and people become more materialistic. Thus, there is from some people more tolerance of perversion. But it doesn't mean that all other trends in society that have grown in the last 150 years are bad. Take women's rights. There is a good side to it, even though a bad side is that family unity is less than before.

All the evidence suggests that Christian parents continued to discipline their children with corporal punishment all the way up to today. I've never heard of any evidence to suggest that Christ's injunction to Peter was taken to mean "don't spank your kids". So this does not constitute counter-evidence. This idea that it's wrong to spank kids is entirely the product of modern psychology. It may be correct that it's better than traditional methods, but I'm not completely convinced of this and I'm certainly not convinced that your interpretation of Christian teaching on violence is correct or that it is un-Christian to corporally punish your children.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #570 on: October 13, 2014, 09:45:08 PM »
Look, even the Amish spank their kids, and they're as pacifist as they come.
No they are not necessarily nonviolent. They are pacifist about war, but their family relations can be extremely abusive, perhaps even more than some of the Pearls' followers. They are very closed. Some children ran away to complain to CPS about the abuse and then the families treated the children even worse. One of them putting a rocking chair on the children's toe and rocked back and forth until it bled.

See:
Escaping the Amish – Part 2 | The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss
fourhourworkweek.com/2008/07/17/escaping-the-amish-part-2/

and

Why I Left the Amish: A Memoir


Quote
I think we can teach kids to distinguish between wanton violence that is motivated by passion, and corrective violence that is motivated by love.
Simply because a person appears to have a positive motivation does not mean it is good. Take for a moment an inner city parent who was abused as a child. Some of them abuse their children in strange ways. They may see their child do something wrong, and know that the child should act differently, and not consciously realize that what they are doing is wrong, because they themselves were treated this way. There are parents who burn their children, don't feed them for long times, lock them in a box, kick and punch their kids, or hit them for 5 minutes like the Christian Domestic Discipline, and yet think that it is normal. So simply because the parent may not be particularly enraged and may be motivated by a desire to correct behavior does not mean that the method they use is good.

If you are able to raise kids effectively without hitting them like some parents do, then it is ideal to avoid hitting them.

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We even believe that God chastises and punishes us to bring us to our senses, sometimes in ways that cause us pain and suffering. It's not an alien or un-Christian concept.
Sometimes it is perceived that God has caused extreme difficulty, even if the person's sin was not so great. Look at Job's story- and he didn't even necessarily get punished for sin. It doesn't mean that the punishment is something we are supposed to inflict as Christians, as we are told to impose the maximum mercy practical.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #571 on: October 13, 2014, 09:47:41 PM »
What the hell am I reading?

Congratulations you've just proven that you think corporal punishment is well sexy, at least according to rakovsky.

Well, I enjoy "rough recreation" when and as I can get it, but I think it is a stretch to say that all spanking of children is sexual unless it's in some Orthonormian sense of "we are all sexual beings and everything we do is sexual by default".  By that definition, though, working as a funeral director is a sexual act.   

Eeeeeeeeew.

I take it you never watched the show Six Feet Under.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #572 on: October 13, 2014, 09:56:24 PM »
So I read part of this blog.  For as much as they claim it is not sexual, it definitely reads some some fringe fetish porno.

http://christiandomesticdiscipline.wordpress.com/

Quote
“You’re a wonderful woman,” I said. “A wonderful Christian, a wonderful wife, a wonderful submissive. You are going to be a wonderful mother, hopefully soon. These things that are bothering you are not what’s important. I love and cherish you…”

LOL!  Just a guy getting his jollies without having to ask his wife to do something different.  "It's in the Bible, honey, for God's sake!"
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #573 on: October 13, 2014, 10:02:58 PM »
All the evidence suggests that Christian parents continued to discipline their children with corporal punishment all the way up to today.
It's banned in Greece, Ukraine, and Cyprus.

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I've never heard of any evidence to suggest that Christ's injunction to Peter was taken to mean "don't spank your kids".
Christ an Paul focused on having us live lives of mercy rather than following the edicts of the OT regarding punishment and violence when practical. That was the thinking behind those of the saints who opposed capital punishment. Yes, Christ and Paul did not say to never cane anyone under any condition, but nor did they ever say to do so. What they did do was release us from treating the Old Testament as if it was a command for us that we couldn't override with mercy. Rather the opposite- they want us to use maximum mercy as practical.

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This idea that it's wrong to spank kids is entirely the product of modern psychology.
There were Native American families that did not spank children for many generations.
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Punishment: Sioux children were never spanked or hit. It was punishment enough to be given a stern look. If they were really bad, they might be scolded
nativeamericans.mrdonn.org/plains/sioux/kids.html

From what I have heard, there was a time when parents from my tribe would never spank their children
www.quora.com

I read about Puritan children from families that caned their children Old Testament style and preferred living among the New England natives who did not hit them. When they were freed from the Indians, they ran away to return to the natives.

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I'm certainly not convinced that your interpretation of Christian teaching on violence is correct or that it is un-Christian to corporally punish your children.
Over and over and over Christ and the apostles tell us that we need not follow the requirements of the Old Law. That's why it's called the Old Testament.
In Galatians 1, people told the Galatians that they had to follow the Law, in particular circumcision, for salvation, and St Paul replied: "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel". We are not under the Law to cane women, fools, and children, or to poison women who make the Temple impure, like the Law says. Nor does the New Testament specifically say to do this or not. Generally though the gospel over and over sees hitting people with punishment negatively- the apostles are never hitting people - they are the ones being caned or killed for preaching disregarding the Law and for Christ. (See Acts, where Stephen is stoned for preaching against the Law).
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #574 on: October 13, 2014, 10:57:29 PM »
OK I accept your argument that we shouldn't cane children just because Proverbs says so. I don't accept the argument that Christian opposition to needless violence entails opposition to corporal punishment, just as I don't think it entails pacifism, but it seems you're not going that far. I hesitantly agree that raising kids without corporal punishment if possible is preferable, though I do harbor suspicions that complete absence of corporal punishment may be why we've all gone so soft and squeamish about everything. If we're that unused to pain, is it a surprise that we can hardly endure it when it comes?

I guess at this stage I'd be interested in why, for so many centuries, the Church saw nothing wrong with corporal punishment; it's not like they weren't reading the same Gospel as we are, so this view that only complete non-violence is the Christian way is obviously not the only valid interpretation. I'm trying to find authoritative Orthodox views on the subject but am drawing blanks so far.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 10:58:37 PM by Jonathan Gress »

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #575 on: October 13, 2014, 11:14:49 PM »
OK I accept your argument that we shouldn't cane children just because Proverbs says so. I don't accept the argument that Christian opposition to needless violence entails opposition to corporal punishment, just as I don't think it entails pacifism, but it seems you're not going that far. I hesitantly agree that raising kids without corporal punishment if possible is preferable, though I do harbor suspicions that complete absence of corporal punishment may be why we've all gone so soft and squeamish about everything. If we're that unused to pain, is it a surprise that we can hardly endure it when it comes?

I guess at this stage I'd be interested in why, for so many centuries, the Church saw nothing wrong with corporal punishment; it's not like they weren't reading the same Gospel as we are, so this view that only complete non-violence is the Christian way is obviously not the only valid interpretation. I'm trying to find authoritative Orthodox views on the subject but am drawing blanks so far.

Perhaps it is the rise of Protestantism, especially the Calvinists and the Puritans that tainted Christianity with the teaching that man was not created good.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 11:15:37 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #576 on: October 13, 2014, 11:15:53 PM »
OK I accept your argument that we shouldn't cane children just because Proverbs says so. I don't accept the argument that Christian opposition to needless violence entails opposition to corporal punishment, just as I don't think it entails pacifism, but it seems you're not going that far. I hesitantly agree that raising kids without corporal punishment if possible is preferable, though I do harbor suspicions that complete absence of corporal punishment may be why we've all gone so soft and squeamish about everything. If we're that unused to pain, is it a surprise that we can hardly endure it when it comes?

I guess at this stage I'd be interested in why, for so many centuries, the Church saw nothing wrong with corporal punishment; it's not like they weren't reading the same Gospel as we are, so this view that only complete non-violence is the Christian way is obviously not the only valid interpretation. I'm trying to find authoritative Orthodox views on the subject but am drawing blanks so far.


Perhaps it is the rise of Protestantism, especially the Calvinists and the Puritans that tainted Christianity with the teaching that man was not created good.

By "Church" I mean the Orthodox Church. I can't find any authority that explicitly approves of it, but I also can't find any that explicitly denounce it, though I'm still looking.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 11:16:45 PM by Jonathan Gress »

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #577 on: October 13, 2014, 11:34:15 PM »
OK I accept your argument that we shouldn't cane children just because Proverbs says so.
OK.

Quote
I don't accept the argument that Christian opposition to needless violence entails opposition to corporal punishment, just as I don't think it entails pacifism, but it seems you're not going that far.
I believe that Christianity implies trying to avoid war and corporal punishment. Ideally, we would not have either. I do understand the concept of self defense and don't have a strong opinion on whether war is ever justified or not. I am convinced that hitting a child's bottom is always unnecessary as punishment. I am not going to say that hitting a child is never ever under any imaginable circumstances conceivable, but I believe that avoiding it is ideal. If a kid has been rightly raised close to their parents like Yesh's family, I believe it's never necessary because of the close bond. Maybe if the kid was hit a lot and adopted, you might need it a few times, because they are used to it, but I am not prepared to accept that, and it sounds cruel.

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I hesitantly agree that raising kids without corporal punishment if possible is preferable,

OK.

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though I do harbor suspicions that complete absence of corporal punishment may be why we've all gone so soft and squeamish about everything.
No, because unfortunately we don't have that complete absence. Far from it. Perhaps 20% of 15-17 year olds are hit by parents as discipline. It's even in some marriages as you see, and not only in CDD.


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If we're that unused to pain, is it a surprise that we can hardly endure it when it comes?
I see that, but alternately, people who are hit can be more traumatised as a result. If they are used to it, they may also become less vigilant against it even when it's wrong.

Quote
I guess at this stage I'd be interested in why, for so many centuries, the Church saw nothing wrong with corporal punishment;
St. Augustine did in his CONFESSIONS, noting that teachers hit kids for games when they themselves did worse things. He did not say caning was always wrong, just that it was unfair to hit kids when teachers did the same thing. St Augustine's complaint works even for today. Adults who hit kids often do things much worse than kids do, but they generally don't believe in hitting adults as a good punishment (although sometimes they have urges to punch or abuse people- but that is not considered respectable).

Quote
it's not like they weren't reading the same Gospel as we are, so this view that only complete non-violence is the Christian way is obviously not the only valid interpretation.
They read the same gospel, but the gospel does not mention any teaching "on point", Jonathan. You have to make inferences for whichever position you take if you are going to use the Gospel.

Here is an interesting, illustrative story from the Church. In medieval Russia, St. Joseph Volotzky supported killing heretics who looked to Judaism, and he brought about a harsh, penalizing Inquisition. In doing so, he relied on Old Testament passages. One might then follow his example and point to Proverbs and support caning. One could also see this saint as an example to follow for Church Tradition.

Now here is an interesting thing- other clergy and monastics in the Church opposed St. J.Volotzky. They opposed the Judaizing heresy, but made an interesting observation, Jonathan. They noted that St. J. Volotsky was himself relying on Judaism - Old Testament passages - in demanding harsh punishment. In effect, his Church opponents argued that Christianity really taught forgiveness and putting Christ's gospel of kindness over Judaism and the penal law. St. J. Volotsky was in fact doing what he accused his victims of.

My belief is that our theologians have not made a consensus on who was right in that debate, but I agree strongly with St. J.V.'s detractors. For better or worse, both views can be found among our brothers in the Church.

Quote
I'm trying to find authoritative Orthodox views on the subject but am drawing blanks so far.
The topic of hitting children really did not take the same level of focus as the other major issues did, like Judaizing, Christology, etc. etc. Even slavery and flogging of criminals was not something that our saints have focused on and made a major social issue. I heard of a Serbian saint who wrote in favor of hitting kids and saw an Orthodox book on kids with a mention on supporting it. You can also find statements against abuse. The Russian empire abolished school caning around 1860. Probably it was normal in Russian families to beat children, but I know of Russian families at the turn of the last century, including a priest's that absolutely didn't hit kids ever.

However, slavery, hitting children, etc. or opposing those things is just not something that is strongly emphasized in our church writings, which is why you are drawing a blank. the main message from Orthodoxy is to raise kids to love God and be close to your kids.

This is partly because our church does not have a theology emphasizing punishment. Calvinism does have much more of a penal theology, and that's why it is emphasized as a practice in the conservative Calvinist churches. Even though Tsarist Russia abolished school beatings, it still happens in a large minority of schools in the US Calvinist South.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 11:36:13 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #578 on: October 13, 2014, 11:38:51 PM »
Perhaps it is the rise of Protestantism, especially the Calvinists and the Puritans that tainted Christianity with the teaching that man was not created good.
One of the Reasons I converted to Orthodoxy as a child from Calvinism was because I read SPARE THE CHILD, a book explaining the connection between Calvinism's penal theology and beating children.
zakherys.tripod.com/greven.htm

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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #579 on: October 13, 2014, 11:44:19 PM »
By "Church" I mean the Orthodox Church. I can't find any authority that explicitly approves of it, but I also can't find any that explicitly denounce it, though I'm still looking.
The "answer" is that generally it is not something the saints or theologians discussed. You will find occasional approval of it or find occasional criticisms of its use (eg. St Augustine). You will find cases of church personnel for centuries beating children harshly and humiliating them, or in some cases avoiding hitting them. Raising kids in Church institutions across the Orthodox world is today common and those institutions generally haven't hit kids since the Alexandrine reforms, and so it can be said that there was a strong shift that was completed in the 4th-19th centuries in eastern Christendom.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 11:45:25 PM by rakovsky »
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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #580 on: October 14, 2014, 12:27:53 AM »
The Rule of St. Benedict also recommends the beating of monks who are rebellious or disobedient.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #581 on: October 14, 2014, 12:30:10 AM »
The Rule of St. Benedict also recommends the beating of monks who are rebellious or disobedient.


Maybe Priests can beat tiresome parishioners too!
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Maria

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #582 on: October 14, 2014, 12:44:31 AM »
The Rule of St. Benedict also recommends the beating of monks who are rebellious or disobedient.


Maybe Priests can beat sprinkle tiresome parishioners too!

FIFY

Pastors get to sprinkle tiresome or popular parishioners with holy water on Theophany every year.
Some people really get a good soaking.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #583 on: October 14, 2014, 12:49:44 AM »
The Rule of St. Benedict also recommends the beating of monks who are rebellious or disobedient.


Maybe Priests can beat sprinkle tiresome parishioners too!

FIFY

Pastors get to sprinkle tiresome or popular parishioners with holy water on Theophany every year.
Some people really get a good soaking.



Voice of experience there....did you get soaked?
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Maria

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Re: Spanking - Yea or Nay?
« Reply #584 on: October 14, 2014, 12:52:05 AM »
The Rule of St. Benedict also recommends the beating of monks who are rebellious or disobedient.


Maybe Priests can beat sprinkle tiresome parishioners too!

FIFY

Pastors get to sprinkle tiresome or popular parishioners with holy water on Theophany every year.
Some people really get a good soaking.


Voice of experience there....did you get soaked?

FIFY

Yes, our pastor loved to soak all the choir members.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.