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Poll
Question: Should children be spanked?
Absolutely yes! - 33 (18.6%)
In some cases, yes. - 80 (45.2%)
Maybe. - 13 (7.3%)
No, probably not. - 21 (11.9%)
Absolutely not! - 30 (16.9%)
Total Voters: 177

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Author Topic: Spanking - Yea or Nay?  (Read 59623 times) Average Rating: 3
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« Reply #225 on: February 05, 2011, 02:35:45 AM »

My parents always alluded to the following verses:
Proverbs 23:13-14
"13Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
14Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell"

Proverbs 13:24
"24He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

Did your parents also abstain from eating pork, and from wearing garments of wool and linen?



No my parents did not at all. But that's not to say there isn't wisdom and truth that carries over from those passages and from that time. Of course if you hit your child with a heart of anger or pleasure I'd consider that sinful but I believe it can be done out of love. It can be beneficial in its proper place. I'm confident parents humbly doing their duty to God will discern correctly. This is the real issue as spanking is only bad when wielded wrong. 
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« Reply #226 on: February 05, 2011, 06:18:12 AM »

I'm confident parents humbly doing their duty to God will discern correctly.
I am not. There are so many Protestant sects in the world, and many of them humbly try to discern God's will, but they all get to different results... why would it be different in parenting?

This is the real issue as spanking is only bad when wielded wrong. 
That might be true in an Old Testament context. But if resisting the one who beats on your cheek is always wrong, how can we think it is right to use violence against a child? Christ simply has much higher expectations of us. And I would say that even if "spanking is wielded correctly", the parent doing so should feel ashamed for not having succeeded to educate his child in a non-violent way.
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« Reply #227 on: February 05, 2011, 07:56:05 AM »

My parents always alluded to the following verses:
Proverbs 23:13-14
"13Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
14Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell"

Proverbs 13:24
"24He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."



Did your parents also abstain from eating pork, and from wearing garments of wool and linen?






That might be true in an Old Testament context. But if resisting the one who beats on your cheek is always wrong, how can we think it is right to use violence against a child? Christ simply has much higher expectations of us. And I would say that even if "spanking is wielded correctly", the parent doing so should feel ashamed for not having succeeded to educate his child in a non-violent way.

Do not answer fools according to their folly, or you yourself will be just like them.
Answer fools according to their folly, or they will be wise in their own eyes.

Proverbs 26 4-5
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 08:15:11 AM by Alive » Logged
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« Reply #228 on: February 05, 2011, 08:30:48 AM »

For example in many countries, the autonomy of the family from state intervention is written in the Constitution.
Even if reproof is banned in some statute, in the continental legal systems, if there is a constitutional norm proclaiming the autonomy of the family, using the systematic interpretation of the legal system, we can eliminate this ban on reproof since a subconstitutional law cannot overrule the Constitution.

If in some families there was a tradition of parents raping their children should they be allowed to do so because of "autonomy of the family"?
The most optimal situation would be for the family to be replaced by a state-collective cooperative, in which the children are deprived of mother and father, brother and sister. For we all know that the father and mother commit the most harm to the life of the child.  Wink Ultimately, the state knows the best or so you believe. Sadly this is the basis of all this legislation.

The "autonomy of the family" was up to the socialist revolution a stable part of the legal and political system.

In the real world, no one thinks of committing incest against their children. The mere mention of such a thought is sickening and immoral. Immorality of this sort is most definitively off topic.
Only in Sodom and Gomorra would they carry out such a practice! Or perhaps in the Soviets..
Or the Vatican: the supreme pontiff personally giving the OK that Alois Hitler could marry his niece, Klara Pölzl, with whom he was having an affair (she was 16, he 39) while cohabitating with another woman while married to a third, there being "no divorce in Catholic families."

You are such a Wiki-Follower, I am surprised you didn't check your facts there.  This is a falsehood, you know.  But of course you know.  Never one to miss an opportunity.
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« Reply #229 on: February 05, 2011, 01:44:35 PM »

My parents always alluded to the following verses:
Proverbs 23:13-14
"13Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
14Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell"

Proverbs 13:24
"24He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."



Did your parents also abstain from eating pork, and from wearing garments of wool and linen?






That might be true in an Old Testament context. But if resisting the one who beats on your cheek is always wrong, how can we think it is right to use violence against a child? Christ simply has much higher expectations of us. And I would say that even if "spanking is wielded correctly", the parent doing so should feel ashamed for not having succeeded to educate his child in a non-violent way.

Do not answer fools according to their folly, or you yourself will be just like them.
Answer fools according to their folly, or they will be wise in their own eyes.

Proverbs 26 4-5
And who is the fool?
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« Reply #230 on: February 05, 2011, 03:50:19 PM »

I'm confident parents humbly doing their duty to God will discern correctly.
I am not. There are so many Protestant sects in the world, and many of them humbly try to discern God's will, but they all get to different results... why would it be different in parenting?

This is the real issue as spanking is only bad when wielded wrong. 
That might be true in an Old Testament context. But if resisting the one who beats on your cheek is always wrong, how can we think it is right to use violence against a child? Christ simply has much higher expectations of us. And I would say that even if "spanking is wielded correctly", the parent doing so should feel ashamed for not having succeeded to educate his child in a non-violent way.

Well I would not agree that most Protestants are humbly following God. I mean this is getting somewhat away from spanking, but their rejection of authority is rooted deeply in pride. They can not humble themselves and accept the authority of anyone other than themselves. To them, they are the final word on any issue, not the church. They refuse to submit to the Holy Fathers who have received the Spirit to guide the body.
I think its dangerous to try and teach a child with reason. How can you reason with one who is unreasonable? How do you defeat one with logic if they don't follow the rules of logic themselves? Just as God showed His people via force that He is the ultimate authority, so must a parent sometimes IMHO.
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« Reply #231 on: February 05, 2011, 06:14:38 PM »

I said many Protestants humbly try to discern God's will. I do not know whether that is a majority, and I do not think they completely follow God's will (since becoming part of the Body of Christ, i.e. Orthodoxy, is part of his will), but I know many who sincerely try.

I do not think that children are "unreasonable". On the contrary, I consider explaining in an age-appropriate way why cetain things are wrong to be extremely important.

I also think it is strange to accuse Protestants of pride first, and then place yourself in a God-like position towards your children. And btw, "authority" is a Latin word and concept. The Orthodox "exousia" has quite some different connotations. And anyway, Orthodox Christianity is not based on imposing anything via force (God did that in the OT, but Christ explicitly abstained from that, until the end of the eon), but on wilful, loving obedience.
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« Reply #232 on: February 05, 2011, 06:19:20 PM »

For example in many countries, the autonomy of the family from state intervention is written in the Constitution.
Even if reproof is banned in some statute, in the continental legal systems, if there is a constitutional norm proclaiming the autonomy of the family, using the systematic interpretation of the legal system, we can eliminate this ban on reproof since a subconstitutional law cannot overrule the Constitution.

If in some families there was a tradition of parents raping their children should they be allowed to do so because of "autonomy of the family"?
The most optimal situation would be for the family to be replaced by a state-collective cooperative, in which the children are deprived of mother and father, brother and sister. For we all know that the father and mother commit the most harm to the life of the child.  Wink Ultimately, the state knows the best or so you believe. Sadly this is the basis of all this legislation.

The "autonomy of the family" was up to the socialist revolution a stable part of the legal and political system.

In the real world, no one thinks of committing incest against their children. The mere mention of such a thought is sickening and immoral. Immorality of this sort is most definitively off topic.
Only in Sodom and Gomorra would they carry out such a practice! Or perhaps in the Soviets..
Or the Vatican: the supreme pontiff personally giving the OK that Alois Hitler could marry his niece, Klara Pölzl, with whom he was having an affair (she was 16, he 39) while cohabitating with another woman while married to a third, there being "no divorce in Catholic families."

You are such a Wiki-Follower, I am surprised you didn't check your facts there.  This is a falsehood, you know.  But of course you know.  Never one to miss an opportunity.
I've known about these facts of Hitler's family life long before Wikipedia, before the internet in fact. Can you produce any contrary account?
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« Reply #233 on: February 05, 2011, 06:23:30 PM »

Interesting research on the rod Scriptures in this pdf: Christian parents and the spanking controversy

(Not specifically Orthodox but I'm not aware of a similar Orthodox resource...)
It is not only "not specifically Orthodox", but it is even specifically Protestant. All of this seems to be based on the Hebrew text, whereas Orthodoxy uses the Septuagint.

Anyway, I really do not understand why some people actually want to use violence against their children. Psychologists would say that the greatest advocates of violent educations are the ones who suffered from that themselves when they were children, and now they subconsciously want to pass on the pain to their own children. I would whether there is some truth to that.

Anyway, Christ did not even use violence to prevent crucifixion,
but He did use it to cleanse the Temple.

Btw, given all the perversions the psychologists think quite normal nowadays, and the bizarre theories they pursue, I wouldn't take their word on it.
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« Reply #234 on: February 05, 2011, 07:13:47 PM »

I said many Protestants humbly try to discern God's will. I do not know whether that is a majority, and I do not think they completely follow God's will (since becoming part of the Body of Christ, i.e. Orthodoxy, is part of his will), but I know many who sincerely try.

I do not think that children are "unreasonable". On the contrary, I consider explaining in an age-appropriate way why cetain things are wrong to be extremely important.

I also think it is strange to accuse Protestants of pride first, and then place yourself in a God-like position towards your children. And btw, "authority" is a Latin word and concept. The Orthodox "exousia" has quite some different connotations. And anyway, Orthodox Christianity is not based on imposing anything via force (God did that in the OT, but Christ explicitly abstained from that, until the end of the eon), but on wilful, loving obedience.

Pardon me if I sounded accusing. That is simply is experience of me and my family, and some friends I have that came from that background. Our experience obviously is no authority on the subject; I should have started with that!
And you make a good point of the loving obedience. I just hope we can agree that the Old Testament is as alive with truth today as it always was.
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« Reply #235 on: February 05, 2011, 09:59:05 PM »

My parents always alluded to the following verses:
Proverbs 23:13-14
"13Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
14Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell"

Proverbs 13:24
"24He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."



Did your parents also abstain from eating pork, and from wearing garments of wool and linen?






That might be true in an Old Testament context. But if resisting the one who beats on your cheek is always wrong, how can we think it is right to use violence against a child? Christ simply has much higher expectations of us. And I would say that even if "spanking is wielded correctly", the parent doing so should feel ashamed for not having succeeded to educate his child in a non-violent way.

Do not answer fools according to their folly, or you yourself will be just like them.
Answer fools according to their folly, or they will be wise in their own eyes.

Proverbs 26 4-5
And who is the fool?


God know,  (as well as smart people too).
And I know for sure, there are some speculation on “Old testament – New testament” separation.


1.   It is incorrect to mixMoses law” with “Moral recommendation from Solomon”.
2.   Jesus same and Job same and satan same (no matter of time).

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. (Heb 13. Cool
All this “brain washing” about “new expectation”, “new time”, “new age”  – are deep trap.


I feel sorry If author think himself greater than Noah, Abraham, Moses, David etc…. I may skip Elias and John, for there no people may be equal to them at all.



Any one who declare about deference in "human state condition" - are wrong and deceiving other.
Each monastery, or any other social group have own canon them live by. Israel have own canon( Israil have one too - Moses law - and it have no thing to do with "spanking").

It is clear that Gorazd make false statement mixing moral recommendation with social law.


Every one who look on female with desire commit adultery….  so then every woman(wife) have right to devised, for there is no man who may not  drop look on boobs (even for split seconds).

Same thing about “killing”.
But “hate” – is natural tool of our mind and heart.
Same as violence – is natural too.

Any one speak other way simply ignorant and have no idea about Christianity and looking for “easy going” life , full of deception and “fun”.



And about “violence” , “Christianity” and “raising kids”.



It is common that people speculation on “violence” , to prevent appropriate education and turn our kids into cheap meat slaves - animals with out will.


the kingdom of heaven take by violence, and violent men take it by force”. Jesus Christ.

And if Gorazd accused any one cant teach and raise well own kids – he accused Elias in fist as bad parent


Tolstoy – was heretic, and it is common fact, that his heresy was about “violence” speculation.

So all same , no thing change. It just get worse as it became antychristian  “international governmental politics” – turn our kids into spoiled,  willless and ignorant “fun seekers”.
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« Reply #236 on: February 06, 2011, 02:35:44 PM »

Alive,

I am not looking for a simple going Christianity, and overcome hate and violence (which are "natural" only to the degree that sin has become a "second nature" for us) is certainly not a deception, but if it really happens, it is part of theosis and it is not something easy at all.

God, in his inner being, remains the same, and is unknowable to us. But the way he deals with us is not always the same: In the OT, he had not become incarnate yet!

As for taking the kingdom "by force" (Matthew 11:12), this is clearly metaphorical. St. John Chrysostom explains this to mean "earnestness of mind". (see http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.XXXVII.html)

As for cleansing the temple, I again recommend reading Chrysostom: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LXIV.html
Actually, he does contrast the money-changers to children, showing them as opposites. So it would not seem correct to me to conclude from one group to the other.


CBGardner,

The Old Testament is and remains Holy Scripture, of course it has not become untrue, but it should be understood in its own time and function: its law served to prepare the coming of Christ, and Christ has fulfilled the law.

As for moral and/or social wisdom in scripture, I think it is quite a complicated issue. For example, St. Paul, in the New Testament even, says men should have short hair. But many of our great saints have practised the contrary.
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« Reply #237 on: February 06, 2011, 06:58:30 PM »

This is the real issue as spanking is only bad when wielded wrong.  
That might be true in an Old Testament context.


The Old Testament is and remains Holy Scripture, of course it has not become untrue, but it should be understood in its own time and function: its law served to prepare the coming of Christ, and Christ has fulfilled the law.

Why you present natural (common for any time) and necessarybasic “parenting recommendation” as “Moses law” and refer it for Before Christ incarnation time only.
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« Reply #238 on: February 06, 2011, 07:04:10 PM »

And I would say that even if "spanking is wielded correctly", the parent doing so should feel ashamed for not having succeeded to educate his child in a non-violent way.
Sound like you accusing God to be bad educator (not having succeeded ) for Adam fall. And than you accusing God in violent correction take place too…..
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« Reply #239 on: February 06, 2011, 07:38:07 PM »

Does the Bible say "God punished Adam"? Not at all. That Adam became mortal was not a punishment imposed by God, but a logical consequence of his sin, just like burning your hand is a logical consequence of touching a hot oven. God had actually warned Adam before (See Genesis 2:17).

Also, "natural law" is an Artistotelian concept. Roman Catholics included that one into their theology, Orthodoxy has been much more careful on that.
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« Reply #240 on: February 06, 2011, 11:17:17 PM »

Does the Bible say "God punished Adam"? Not at all. That Adam became mortal was not a punishment imposed by God, but a logical consequence of his sin, just like burning your hand is a logical consequence of touching a hot oven. God had actually warned Adam before (See Genesis 2:17).

Also, "natural law" is an Artistotelian concept. Roman Catholics included that one into their theology, Orthodoxy has been much more careful on that.




Your problem is - you mix “correction” with “punishment”….
Sorry for you.

No one talking about punishment, we are talking about correction.

You poison by wrong western doctrine… bad for you.






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« Reply #241 on: February 07, 2011, 12:46:47 AM »


"The much-touted 'biblical argument' in support of corporal punishment is founded upon proof-texting a few isolated passages from Proverbs. Using the same method of selective scripture reading, one could also cite the Bible as an authority for the practice of slavery, adultery, polygamy, incest, suppression of women, executing people who eat pork, and infanticide. The brutal and vindictive practice of corporal punishment cannot be reconciled with the major New Testament themes that teach love and forgiveness and a respect for the sacredness and dignity of children, and which overwhelmingly reject violence and retribution as a means of solving human problems. Would Jesus ever hit a child? NEVER!"
      The Rev. Thomas E. Sagendorf, United Methodist Clergy (Retired), Hamilton, Indiana. Personal communication, 2006.

"If we really want a peaceful and compassionate world, we need to build communities of trust where all children are respected, where home and school are safe places to be and where discipline is taught by example."
      Desmond M. Tutu, Archbishop Emeritus, Nobel Peace Prize recipient, Global Initiative to End All Corporal Punishment of Children, 2006. See www.nospank.net/globalreport.pdf

Ten Reasons I Can't Spank A Catholic Counselor's Critical Examination of Corporal Punishment By Gregory K. Popcak, MSW, LCSW
http://nospank.net/popcak.htm

"I have always been an advocate for the total abolition of corporal punishment and I believe the connection with pornography that is so oriented has its roots in our tradition of beating children."
      Gordon Moyes, D. D., Pastor, Uniting Church, Superintendent of the Wesley Central Mission, Sydney, Australia. Excerpt from personal communication, 1980.

"I have never accepted the principle of 'spare the rod and spoil the child.'... I am persuaded that violent fathers produce violent sons... Children don't need beating. They need love and encouragement. They need fathers to whom they can look with respect rather than fear. Above all, they need example."
      Gordon B. Hinckley, President, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, October 1994 General Conference.

United Methodist Church:
UMC General Conference, May 3, 2004, takes a stand against corporal punishment in all settings.
Click on the following links:
http://www.umc.org/Calms/petition.asp?mid=2886&Petition=1038
http://www.umc.org/Calms/Petition.asp?mid=2886&Petition=1037
Rita Swan, introducer of both resolutions, describes strategy

Parenting In Jesus' Footsteps
http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org/

Arms of Love: A grace based explanation of Biblical child rearing:
http://aolff.org/

Nurturing God's Way
http://www.nurturinggodsway.com/

Churches Network for Nonviolence
http://www.churchesfornon-violence.org/index.html

Christian website about attachment parenting:
http://www.gentlemothering.com/

Matthew 19:8
Just because something is a long-standing tradition, doesn't mean it was ever right to begin with.
 
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« Reply #242 on: February 07, 2011, 12:47:28 AM »


Only suitable for minors?:

Schoolchildrens' "spanking" related injuries (WARNING - These images may be deeply disturbing to some viewers. Do not open this page if children are present).
http://www.nospank.net/injuredkids.pdf

Reasonable and moderate? You decide.
(WARNING - This sound recording may be deeply disturbing to some listeners. Do not open this file if children are within listening range).
http://nospank.net/prj-006.wav



Recommended by professionals:

Plain Talk About Spanking
by Jordan Riak
http://www.nospank.net/pt2010.pdf

The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
by Tom Johnson
http://nospank.net/sdsc2.pdf

NO VITAL ORGANS THERE, So They Say
by Lesli Taylor MD and Adah Maurer PhD
http://nospank.net/taylor.htm



Most current research:

Spanking Kids Increases Risk of Sexual Problems
http://www.unh.edu/news/cj_nr/2008/feb/lw28spanking.cfm

Use of Spanking for 3-Year-Old Children and Associated Intimate Partner Aggression or Violence
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/126/3/415

Spanking Can Make Children More Aggressive Later
http://tulane.edu/news/releases/pr_03122010.cfm

Spanking Children Can Lower IQ
http://www.unh.edu/news/cj_nr/2009/sept/lw25straus.cfm

Just a handful of those helping to raise awareness of why child "spanking" isn't a good idea:

American Academy of Pediatrics,
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry,
American Psychological Association,
Center For Effective Discipline,
Churches' Network For Non-Violence,
United Methodist Church
Nobel Peace Prize recipient Archbishop Desmond Tutu,
Parenting In Jesus' Footsteps,
Global Initiative To End All Corporal Punishment of Children,
United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child.

In 31 nations, child corporal punishment is prohibited by law (with more in process). In fact, the US was the only UN member that did not ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Child. The US also has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

The US states with the highest crime rates and the poorest academic performance are also the ones with the highest rates of child corporal punishment.

There is simply no evidence to suggest that child bottom-battering instills virtue.
 
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« Reply #243 on: February 07, 2011, 11:07:04 AM »


"If we really want a peaceful and compassionate world, we need to build communities of trust where all children are respected, where home and school are safe places to be and where discipline is taught by example."
      Desmond M. Tutu, Archbishop Emeritus, Nobel Peace Prize recipient, Global Initiative to End All Corporal Punishment of Children, 2006. See www.nospank.net/globalreport.pdf

also you forgot to mention about  obama - nobel peace prize recipient.

sound like you like speculation coverd into covered into bright package
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« Reply #244 on: March 08, 2011, 05:13:10 PM »

Absolutely yes.  In direct defiance of a parent, a child should be spanked.  I think this is clearly spelled out in the bible.

I also believe to the fullest that is what is wrong with the general youth of today.
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« Reply #245 on: March 30, 2011, 10:28:13 AM »

I know that every family and child is different. And I try to respect most opinions. Spanking is very effective for some kids and not for others. Just like time outs are effective for some kids and not for others, but I do not prefer using spanking as a form of discipline. For me, it is a form of punishment. I think a kid's behavior is very much dependent upon the parent being consistent in their discipline of the negative action.

In my case when I think I can't control my teen at all I consider sending them to troubled boarding school for christian values. It does not mean passing responsibilities to the school, we are just human and also needs help.

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« Reply #246 on: May 10, 2011, 10:06:20 PM »

"Spare the rod, spoil the child"

"Thy rod and thy staff shall comfort me"
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« Reply #247 on: May 10, 2011, 10:15:34 PM »

"Spare the rod, spoil the child"

"Thy rod and thy staff shall comfort me"

Time out worked for us. Actually, usually just the threat of time out worked. We didn't own a rod anyway  Wink
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« Reply #248 on: May 10, 2011, 10:34:48 PM »

"Spare the rod, spoil the child"

"Thy rod and thy staff shall comfort me"

Time out worked for us. Actually, usually just the threat of time out worked. We didn't own a rod anyway  Wink

What I meant by quoting those verses is that many Christians have interpreted the first one as a justification for hitting children. Yet the cross reference to the Psalms implies that "rod" could mean "rod" in the shepherd's context.
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« Reply #249 on: May 11, 2011, 12:06:37 AM »

^I guess call me slow, heh Smiley
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« Reply #250 on: May 11, 2011, 01:37:43 AM »

In my county it is illegal to hit or spank children Grin
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« Reply #251 on: May 11, 2011, 07:10:55 AM »

In my county it is illegal to hit or spank children Grin

Country you call “my” antichristian country then.
Such law is discrimination religious rights.
Also such country full of hypocrisy and need to outlaw boxing and other form of fighting and police rights to apply force too.
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« Reply #252 on: May 11, 2011, 10:46:51 AM »

Not exactly antichristian but it is fair to say that a lot of danes are atheists.
Personally I cannot see how outlawing spanking is unchristian, there are a lot of christian churches in Denmark and I have not heard of anyone besides the Jehovahs Witnesses who have spoken againts it.

P.S: You are right i meant country. spelling mistake Smiley
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« Reply #253 on: May 11, 2011, 11:18:55 AM »

In my county it is illegal to hit or spank children Grin

Same goes for Finland. Is this somehow unusual? Are physical punishments for children allowed elsewhere?
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« Reply #254 on: May 11, 2011, 11:48:45 AM »

In what countries is spanking illegal, and what is the consequence of violating this law?
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« Reply #255 on: May 11, 2011, 11:58:42 AM »

In what countries is spanking illegal, and what is the consequence of violating this law?

Trusty wiki has a good page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_in_the_home
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« Reply #256 on: May 11, 2011, 12:15:23 PM »


Very interesting!  I still wonder what would happen to a parent who spanks their child in a country where doing so is illegal.  I could probably find out the answer by digging a bit deeper, starting with the wiki article, but I would be curious if anyone is familiar with such laws.

Here is an interesting quote from the very good book entitled "Young Children in the Orthodox Church" by Presbytera Juliana Cownie:

Quote

http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/youngchildren.aspx

Frankly, early rebellion is best dealt with by administering a spanking. As controversial as this subject has become, an explanation is in order here.

A surprising number of parents have fallen for the trendy philosophy that spankings cause children to become hostile and violent. The fact is that most small children learn very quickly from situations in which pain is the consequence for wrongful actions. If they touch a hot stove, tease a grumpy dog, or shut their fingers in a door, pain ensues. They do not hate the stove or try to pick a fight with the dog. They simply avoid the action which led to the painful consequence. Spanking as a consequence to rebellion is therefore much more comprehensible to a small child than lengthy emotional appeals to their better nature (which has not yet been developed) or long periods of being ignored followed a furious pounding (which is not only abusive but confusing to the child).

A spanking is to be reserved for use in response to willful defiance, whenever it occurs. Period! It is much more effective to apply it early in the conflict, while the parent's emotional apparatus is still under control, than after ninety minutes of scratching and clawing. (James Dobson, Dr. Dobson Answers Your Questions, Tyndale House Publishers, Inc. p.157)

When a parent attempts to apply the method described above, he must expect a certain amount of criticism from other members of the community. For some reason, people want to see a well-behaved child without ever seeing the discipline applied. Some will say the parent is being too harsh, while others will complain that the child is unruly. We cannot expect to please everybody. We must set our own standards for our children's behavior and hold them to those standards on a consistent basis. This approach will teach the children proper behavior and will ultimately gain them much praise when they begin to act like civilized human beings. The praise will be the more so because such behavior is so rare nowadays.

Below is an answer from Q&A with Fr. Andrew Philips in England.  Fr. Andrew has five children:

Quote
http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/answers2.htm

I have recently had a discussion/disagreement with someone, regarding the spanking of children, and I am now confused as to what to think.

How should an Orthodox-Christian parent approach this issue? Is spanking necessary in rearing children? Does the Bible (or any other religious text) specifically mention anything on the issue?

I have searched your web site, and have read many of the entries on the "Ask Fr. Andrew" page, but was unsuccessful in finding an answer. May you please shed some light on my question(s)?

Panayiota, Toronto, Canada


As far as I can remember, this is not a question which has come up on this site before.

In the Scriptures recommendations for physical punishment come from the Old, not from the New, Testament, for example, 'Spare the rod and spoil the child' (Proverbs). Orthodox from Orthodox countries have to understand that until about two generations ago, strict Puritan/ Protestant morality, which was based largely on the Old, and not the New, Testament, was common in Anglo-Saxon countries. The current fashion for political correctness and anti-spanking in the same countries (Sweden, Canada, Holland, England, Scotland etc), comes from the modern reaction to the excesses of the past. Orthodox should keep a balance, neither falling into the puritanical excesses of physical punishment of the Old Testament, or into the 'do whatever you want' chaos of modern, anti-Christian humanism.

As regards practice, this can be said:

Firstly, if children are brought up in the church, often they do not need spanking at all. A mere stern look, or a raised hand, from a loving but fair parent is usually enough, for the children do not want to lose the love of the parent and indeed fear losing it. The parent is to be merciful but also just in judgement, which is in the image of God

However, as Orthodox Christians, we do not take a humanist, politically correct line, imagining that children are always angelic, innocent etc. There can be cases, even in practising Orthodox families, where from time to time a child may need spanking as a correction. After all, however church-going we are, children are always and inevitably under the Non-Orthodox influence of school, friends, television and other influences of the secular world. We are in the world, subject to the consequences of the Fall, therefore we all sin and therefore puinishment. However, there are a number of conditions to attached to physical punishment of children:

Firstly, it should be a spanking, not beating or hitting of the head or in the stomach, or use of an instrument other than the hand. That is not spanking, that is brutality and abuse.

Secondly, the spanking should always be given without passion, anger, pleasure, and clearly as a deterrent for a specific reason and rule-breaking.

Thirdly, the child should know when he may be spanked and why he may be spanked. Rules and consequences must be applied clearly and consistently, otherwise unfairness can result.

Finally, spanking is a last resort and should never be divorced from forgiveness and repentance, even if these concepts are simplified into a child's level of understanding.

As parents, we used to have a stick, which we used to show to our children when they were young, if they were doing, or about to do, something wrong. It was never, ever used. In fact, of our six children, I think I have only ever had to spank one. It was a heavy spanking when he was twelve years old. It did him the world of good!

The important thing is balance. I hope this is of help to you,

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« Reply #257 on: May 11, 2011, 01:17:18 PM »

In what countries is spanking illegal, and what is the consequence of violating this law?
As far as I know there is only 24 countries where hitting children is outlawed.
In Denmark the consequences can differ according to the situation. let me give an example:
A father got a probation for hitting his son which means that he only goes to jail if he repeats the act. At the same time a mother got 20 ddays of prison for hitting a child that was not hers.
Personally I have no problem with that law. In my family we have never practised spanking. 
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« Reply #258 on: May 11, 2011, 04:38:15 PM »

In what countries is spanking illegal, and what is the consequence of violating this law?
As far as I know there is only 24 countries where hitting children is outlawed.
In Denmark the consequences can differ according to the situation. let me give an example:
A father got a probation for hitting his son which means that he only goes to jail if he repeats the act. At the same time a mother got 20 ddays of prison for hitting a child that was not hers.
Personally I have no problem with that law. In my family we have never practised spanking.  

It's legal in the US.  In a few years when most of these countries that outlaw "corporal punishment in the home" will be speaking Arabic (or Turkish) and things will probably go back to normal!   Wink
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« Reply #259 on: May 11, 2011, 04:47:33 PM »

No, I don't believe that spanking is an appropriate correctional method (even more so if it's just being used as a punishment).
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« Reply #260 on: May 11, 2011, 05:05:44 PM »

In what countries is spanking illegal, and what is the consequence of violating this law?
As far as I know there is only 24 countries where hitting children is outlawed.
In Denmark the consequences can differ according to the situation. let me give an example:
A father got a probation for hitting his son which means that he only goes to jail if he repeats the act. At the same time a mother got 20 ddays of prison for hitting a child that was not hers.
Personally I have no problem with that law. In my family we have never practised spanking.  

It's legal in the US.  In a few years when most of these countries that outlaw "corporal punishment in the home" will be speaking Arabic (or Turkish) and things will probably go back to normal!   Wink

That is a good one Cheesy Mind if I borrow it Wink
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« Reply #261 on: May 11, 2011, 05:45:50 PM »

In what countries is spanking illegal, and what is the consequence of violating this law?
As far as I know there is only 24 countries where hitting children is outlawed.
In Denmark the consequences can differ according to the situation. let me give an example:
A father got a probation for hitting his son which means that he only goes to jail if he repeats the act. At the same time a mother got 20 ddays of prison for hitting a child that was not hers.
Personally I have no problem with that law. In my family we have never practised spanking.  

It's legal in the US.  In a few years when most of these countries that outlaw "corporal punishment in the home" will be speaking Arabic (or Turkish) and things will probably go back to normal!   Wink

That is a good one Cheesy Mind if I borrow it Wink

Go for it
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« Reply #262 on: May 11, 2011, 06:04:29 PM »

It's legal in the US.  In a few years when most of these countries that outlaw "corporal punishment in the home" will be speaking Arabic (or Turkish) and things will probably go back to normal!   Wink

Yeah, because Eastern Europe ("most of these countries") is in danger of an Islamist takeover.  Roll Eyes As much as demographic shifts in some European countries are cause for concern, the failure of some foreign commentators to understand the enormous variation across European countries is irksome.
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« Reply #263 on: May 11, 2011, 08:31:26 PM »

I was once in a cab on the way home from court and I saw a toddler with his dad out the front of their home having a chat with a neighbour.

My cab is going along happily at the legal speed and suddenly, without any warning whatsoever, the toddler runs onto the road, right in front of the cab. We only missed the kid cos of my cabbie's quick reflexes -- he managed to swerve into the other lane and miss the child.

The father's response was to smack the kid on the backside. Personally, I was impressed by this -- not horrified.

I am not trying to be antagonistic, but what alternative response do you guys propose would have been appropriate to immediately and indelibly impress upon this child of limited reasoning and capability for language the dangerousness/forbiddenness of his behaviour?
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« Reply #264 on: May 11, 2011, 09:08:33 PM »

I am not trying to be antagonistic, but what alternative response do you guys propose would have been appropriate to immediately and indelibly impress upon this child of limited reasoning and capability for language the dangerousness/forbiddenness of his behaviour?

Yeah. I'm all for it. I don't have any kids of my own, but have a couple of neices and know that it is sometimes necessary.
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« Reply #265 on: May 11, 2011, 09:26:59 PM »

No, I don't believe that spanking is an appropriate correctional method (even more so if it's just being used as a punishment).

Just to be clear, you do have children, right?
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« Reply #266 on: May 12, 2011, 02:14:49 AM »

In what countries is spanking illegal, and what is the consequence of violating this law?
As far as I know there is only 24 countries where hitting children is outlawed.
In Denmark the consequences can differ according to the situation. let me give an example:
A father got a probation for hitting his son which means that he only goes to jail if he repeats the act. At the same time a mother got 20 ddays of prison for hitting a child that was not hers.
Personally I have no problem with that law. In my family we have never practised spanking. 

I find this rather disturbing.  I always wanted to go to the Nordic countries so I could watch someone beat a red headed stepchild so that I could gauge what the term actually meant.  I guess that I will need to see this over here instead.
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« Reply #267 on: May 12, 2011, 02:45:13 AM »

In what countries is spanking illegal, and what is the consequence of violating this law?
As far as I know there is only 24 countries where hitting children is outlawed.
In Denmark the consequences can differ according to the situation. let me give an example:


A father got a probation for hitting his son which means that he only goes to jail if he repeats the act. At the same time a mother got 20 ddays of prison for hitting a child that was not hers.
Personally I have no problem with that law. In my family we have never practised spanking. 

I find this rather disturbing.  I always wanted to go to the Nordic countries so I could watch someone beat a red headed stepchild so that I could gauge what the term actually meant.  I guess that I will need to see this over here instead.
Cheesy
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« Reply #268 on: May 12, 2011, 08:03:24 AM »


Quote
In the Scriptures recommendations for physical punishment come from the Old, not from the New, Testament, for example, 'Spare the rod and spoil the child' (Proverbs). Orthodox from Orthodox countries have to understand that until about two generations ago, strict Puritan/ Protestant morality, which was based largely on the Old, and not the New, Testament, was common in Anglo-Saxon countries. The current fashion for political correctness and anti-spanking in the same countries (Sweden, Canada, Holland, England, Scotland etc), comes from the modern reaction to the excesses of the past. Orthodox should keep a balance, neither falling into the puritanical excesses of physical punishment of the Old Testament, or into the 'do whatever you want' chaos of modern, anti-Christian humanism.


1.   Is not correct to split scripture “key moral recommendation” into “new and old testament”. Especially about basic kids development. No human nature changed.
2.   Bible Books writing after Christ appreciate family moral value from past as well as not protesting against “government force application” .
3.   Apostles demands from parents maximum control over children life what always including spanking etc.
4.   Also all orthodox “holy fathers” who rise children-parents relationship demands appreciate spanking if it needed. 
5.   And for last - Bible books not “structured “code” or “constitution” as protestants present it. 


So to say “not say” in New Testament” – is clear misinterpretation and speculation on Christian value.

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« Reply #269 on: May 12, 2011, 08:04:13 AM »

3.   Apostles demands from parents maximum control over children life what always including spanking etc.

Have you talked to them that you are so sure about it?
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