OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 20, 2014, 04:01:19 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Poll
Question: Should children be spanked?
Absolutely yes! - 33 (18.6%)
In some cases, yes. - 80 (45.2%)
Maybe. - 13 (7.3%)
No, probably not. - 21 (11.9%)
Absolutely not! - 30 (16.9%)
Total Voters: 177

Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Spanking - Yea or Nay?  (Read 61286 times) Average Rating: 3
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,288



WWW
« Reply #180 on: June 12, 2010, 11:10:10 PM »

States with official abolition of corporal punishment in home and schools:
Republic of Moldova (2008)
Greece (2006)
Ukraine (2004)
Romania (2004)
Bulgaria (2000)
Cyprus (1994)
Finland (1983)

Russia and Russian Alaska supposedly abolished penal corporal punishment in 1860, and this was applied to schools.



Quote
    "O my God! What miseries and mockeries did I then experience when it was impressed on me that obedience to my teachers was proper to my boyhood estate if I was to flourish in this world and distinguish myself in those tricks of speech which would gain honor for me among men, and deceitful riches! To this end I was sent to school to get learning, the value of which I knew not--wretch that I was. Yet if I was slow to learn, I was flogged. For this was deemed praiseworthy by our forefathers and many had passed before us in the same course, and thus had built up the precedent for the sorrowful road on which we too were compelled to travel, multiplying labor and sorrow upon the sons of Adam. About this time, O Lord, I observed men praying to thee, and I learned from them to conceive thee--after my capacity for understanding as it was then--to be some great Being, who, though not visible to our senses, was able to hear and help us. Thus as a boy I began to pray to thee, my Help and my Refuge, and, in calling on thee, broke the bands of my tongue. Small as I was, I prayed with no slight earnestness that I might not be beaten at school. And when thou didst not heed me--for that would have been giving me over to my folly--my elders and even my parents too, who wished me no ill, treated my stripes as a joke, though they were then a great and grievous ill to me."
St. Augustine reflects on boyhood punishments and the punishers
Excerpt from Confessions, Chapter IX, Book One (A.D. 398)
Logged
CRCulver
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Finland and Romanian Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,159


St Stephen of Perm, missionary to speakers of Komi


WWW
« Reply #181 on: June 19, 2010, 02:12:35 PM »

Indeed, spanking one's children is illegal in Finland, and the Finnish Orthodox Church (which at the time was considerably more conservative than now) saw no need to oppose the enactment of this law.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2010, 02:13:16 PM by CRCulver » Logged
Alive
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 514


« Reply #182 on: November 06, 2010, 05:45:05 AM »

In some cases, yes. But it is absolutely not avoidable.

It is illegal in lot of country, and it is big issue as it is not reasonable nor logical.

Such law is pure intrusion into religious right of citizens.



If it illegal to apply reasonable physical prevention force then state need to prohibited any physical application on any one including arrest and impressments.


Also all competitive sports need to be outlaw, specially such as boxing, kick boxing, karate, kungfu etc.  as well as such contact sports as rugby American football, hockey.



Logged
Alive
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 514


« Reply #183 on: November 06, 2010, 05:52:21 AM »

Indeed, spanking one's children is illegal in Finland, and the Finnish Orthodox Church (which at the time was considerably more conservative than now) saw no need to oppose the enactment of this law.


“saw no need to oppose” or would not in position to oppose “LAW”?

1. No government would care what orthodox bishop say.
2. Most bishops never look after kids on they own any way….. 



Modern world going to very bottom of the hell.
Logged
quietmorning
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,157


St. Photini


WWW
« Reply #184 on: November 06, 2010, 10:21:00 AM »

I spanked my children, but only in these conditions:

If and only if they did something life threatening or dangerous to themselves or to someone else.
NEVER when I was ANGRY. 
Three good swats, period.  Never any more than that.
Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,948



« Reply #185 on: November 06, 2010, 12:47:09 PM »

Spanking is illegal in Germany, too, and I agree with that. There are good, non-violent ways to educate children.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #186 on: November 06, 2010, 03:29:01 PM »

Such law is pure intrusion into religious right of citizens.

What religion are you?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,288



WWW
« Reply #187 on: November 06, 2010, 04:29:10 PM »

Repentance comes through the heart, not the _$$

Раскаяние и покаяние совершаются сердцом и устами, а не ___ой.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 04:36:27 PM by rakovsky » Logged
Alive
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 514


« Reply #188 on: November 06, 2010, 09:17:45 PM »

Spanking is illegal in Germany, too, and I agree with that. There are good, non-violent ways to educate children.

1.  Discipline and educate – are deferent things.
2.  Physical application and corporal punishment is not synonyms.

But people to ignorant and uneducated to realise such basic stuff, and satan use our ignorance to speculate on “law and order” to make sure kids grow ugly and belong to antichrist  from early childhood.

Also people speculating on “violence” by twisting meaning of it in own wrong way.
Such people posses same demon as Tolstoy was posset. God eleison you people.
Logged
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,948



« Reply #189 on: November 07, 2010, 02:33:26 AM »

Alive,

I do have trouble understanding you English. To make sure that the children don't "belong to Antichrist", physical violence doesn't help. Instead, the children should be loved, be baptized, brought to communion regularly, be taught Christian ethics and not be spoiled with material products.

As for Tolstoy, he was anathemized because he denied some Orthodox dogma, such as the Holy Trinity. We do not know whether this has anything to do with demons. May God have mercy on us all.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 02:33:50 AM by Gorazd » Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,285


WWW
« Reply #190 on: November 07, 2010, 03:02:57 AM »

Spanking is illegal in Germany, too, and I agree with that. There are good, non-violent ways to educate children.

1.  Discipline and educate – are deferent things.
2.  Physical application and corporal punishment is not synonyms.

But people to ignorant and uneducated to realise such basic stuff, and satan use our ignorance to speculate on “law and order” to make sure kids grow ugly and belong to antichrist  from early childhood.

Also people speculating on “violence” by twisting meaning of it in own wrong way.
Such people posses same demon as Tolstoy was posset. God eleison you people.

Alive, what would you define as violence since you have stated that "physical application" and "corporal punishment" are not synonymous and you have claimed that people "twist" the meaning of violence?
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,285


WWW
« Reply #191 on: November 07, 2010, 03:05:04 AM »

Such law is pure intrusion into religious right of citizens.

You assert that a citizen (especially a child) has a religious right to be spanked and that the government interferes with religion by prohibiting spanking?
Logged
Alive
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 514


« Reply #192 on: November 07, 2010, 04:56:25 AM »

Such law is pure intrusion into religious right of citizens.

You assert that a citizen (especially a child) has a religious right to be spanked and that the government interferes with religion by prohibiting spanking?
Yes.
Parents have not just rights , but obligation to apply physical force for education and discipline matter when it required. (As you may notice above I do differentiate Physical application and corporal punishment)

Matthew 11:12.

Currently , "people with power", speculating on such words as violence, aggression, anger.
People in “high places” twisting and substitute meaning of those words to deceive our kids and not let them develop correct comprehension of reality and it sign of antichrist.

Taking away from parents right and obligation to look after kids in appropriate  manner and teach them correct comprehension as God teach us, it is pure form of religious discrimination.



Just remained you about, that modern law is not look on parents as “parents” but “biological producer” with basic “care giver” rights in “way it suet to government interest”.
it is like big farm....zooland. Psalm 48(49):12(13)

« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 05:14:03 AM by Alive » Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,285


WWW
« Reply #193 on: November 07, 2010, 11:08:06 AM »

Such law is pure intrusion into religious right of citizens.

You assert that a citizen (especially a child) has a religious right to be spanked and that the government interferes with religion by prohibiting spanking?
Yes.

That's all I wanted to hear.

Parents have not just rights , but obligation to apply physical force for education and discipline matter when it required. (As you may notice above I do differentiate Physical application and corporal punishment)

Matthew 11:12.

Currently , "people with power", speculating on such words as violence, aggression, anger.
People in “high places” twisting and substitute meaning of those words to deceive our kids and not let them develop correct comprehension of reality and it sign of antichrist.

Taking away from parents right and obligation to look after kids in appropriate  manner and teach them correct comprehension as God teach us, it is pure form of religious discrimination.



Just remained you about, that modern law is not look on parents as “parents” but “biological producer” with basic “care giver” rights in “way it suet to government interest”.
it is like big farm....zooland. Psalm 48(49):12(13)

Who or What can save us from this "zooland" you just described?  Here's an analogy....

Spiritual fathers have spiritual children.  Is it permissible for a spiritual father to use "physical application" on a spiritual child regardless if the spiritual father is a Priest, Bishop or Monastic?
Logged
Alive
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 514


« Reply #194 on: November 07, 2010, 07:37:07 PM »

Such law is pure intrusion into religious right of citizens.

You assert that a citizen (especially a child) has a religious right to be spanked and that the government interferes with religion by prohibiting spanking?
Yes.

That's all I wanted to hear.

Parents have not just rights , but obligation to apply physical force for education and discipline matter when it required. (As you may notice above I do differentiate Physical application and corporal punishment)

Matthew 11:12.

Currently , "people with power", speculating on such words as violence, aggression, anger.
People in “high places” twisting and substitute meaning of those words to deceive our kids and not let them develop correct comprehension of reality and it sign of antichrist.

Taking away from parents right and obligation to look after kids in appropriate  manner and teach them correct comprehension as God teach us, it is pure form of religious discrimination.



Just remained you about, that modern law is not look on parents as “parents” but “biological producer” with basic “care giver” rights in “way it suet to government interest”.
it is like big farm....zooland. Psalm 48(49):12(13)







Who or What can save us from this "zooland" you just described?  Here's an analogy....

Spiritual fathers have spiritual children.  Is it permissible for a spiritual father to use "physical application" on a spiritual child regardless if the spiritual father is a Priest, Bishop or Monastic?


1. There are lot of speculation and deception about “spiritual father”.
2. Native parents are primary spiritual fathers for they own children.

If it not, it is to bad.
Hardly such people should cool themselves as Christians or have kids.

3.   Physical application – including any form of contact, including speech.
4.   Speech is low efficient and sophisticated communicational form comparly to other form such as body contacts.

5.   Punishment and Education and Discipline – 3 deferent things.

6.   Education and discipline – for correction not for punishment.



Body contact is form of communication.
Level of such communication are have wide sector.
Killing is one of form of church contact.
Do not kill.
Physical force application is not about killing, as well slapping should be not about killing or revenge or punishment but prevention, correction, education.

If any one for any reason do not understand speech, alternative , specially  primary(basic) and more simple form of communication need to be applied.


As I have stated above do not mix “punishment” with “discipline” and “education” (knowledge implication).

But people are mix every thing and speculating.


No way we can change it……

We not build paradise on earth.




.....And only God can save as from zooland. And orthodoxy is all about it.
We can decler, we cam manifest, we can make statements, we should protect those who we obligate protect (our self and our kids etc) and make sure we not shift from reality.

But we not in capacity to change world, we just waiting for it end in general and our body death individually.  

« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 07:38:14 PM by Alive » Logged
choirfiend
ManIsChristian=iRnotgrEek.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 903

Rachael weeping for her children, for they are not


« Reply #195 on: November 08, 2010, 11:15:31 AM »

I think spanking is an individual matter as much as any aspect of a child's upbringing. A friend of mine has 4 children; she said that a quick spank did wonders for their older boy in returning him to obedience, but a spank on their next girl would make her such an emotional mess that the crying could last for half an hour---and that's certainly not the result they desire. So they don't spank her. Children are individuals and what works for one may not work for another.

That said, I believe spanking can be useful. I will have it in my choices for discipline, but it's not a first choice. My hubby and I havent discussed it too much, but once the child is older than 2 or 3 and a light smack on the tush is needed to make an immediate connection between the behavior and the consequence, I would prefer to always leave the room, count to ten, then come back and explain to the child why they would be receiving a spanking, including the fact that we love them, then deliver a hands-only spanking in a calm and loving manner.

I was spanked as a child and don't have a problem with it necessarily, even though there were times when my parent was acting out of control themselves--that is what I believe is wrong.  Spanking should never leave a mark or be done out of anger.
Logged

Qui cantat, bis orat
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #196 on: November 08, 2010, 11:18:37 AM »

4.   Speech is low efficient and sophisticated communicational form comparly to other form such as body contacts.

So you punch other people instead of talking to them?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
synLeszka
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 532


« Reply #197 on: November 08, 2010, 02:02:08 PM »

It is not called spanking or corporal punishment. It is reproof. This shows a great lack of legal and semantical knowledge. The only one competent to punish is the state, so thus only it can corporally punish. The main forms of corporal punishment are the whip, beating and et cetera(something very popular in holy Orthodox Russia, if you do not believe me check out the sentences of the European Court of Human Rights regarding Russia)
Alive has a right to her/his opinion. Her/his opinion is grounded in the tradition of the independence of the family.
For example in many countries, the autonomy of the family from state intervention is written in the Constitution.
Even if reproof is banned in some statute, in the continental legal systems, if there is a constitutional norm proclaiming the autonomy of the family, using the systematic interpretation of the legal system, we can eliminate this ban on reproof since a subconstitutional law cannot overrule the Constitution. But since the left is too daft to understand the workings of the legal system, and the leftist tubas will cry wolf, the official elimination of this illegal norm is improbable anytime soon.

It seems that Michał Kalina is transcribing the current Polish debate about the family and the degree of state intervention into family affairs, which by leftists is called the horrendous tradition of self-mutiliation or spanking. Wink  The leftists presuppose that they know more than the average man, that they have a mission from God to make sure that all men, in every detail of their lives are obedient to the state.
Logged
Alive
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 514


« Reply #198 on: November 08, 2010, 09:34:18 PM »

4.   Speech is low efficient and sophisticated communicational form comparly to other form such as body contacts.

So you punch other people instead of talking to them?

You are an extremist. To bad for you.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #199 on: November 09, 2010, 01:28:36 PM »

For example in many countries, the autonomy of the family from state intervention is written in the Constitution.
Even if reproof is banned in some statute, in the continental legal systems, if there is a constitutional norm proclaiming the autonomy of the family, using the systematic interpretation of the legal system, we can eliminate this ban on reproof since a subconstitutional law cannot overrule the Constitution.

If in some families there was a tradition of parents raping their children should they be allowed to do so because of "autonomy of the family"?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
synLeszka
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 532


« Reply #200 on: November 09, 2010, 02:47:58 PM »

For example in many countries, the autonomy of the family from state intervention is written in the Constitution.
Even if reproof is banned in some statute, in the continental legal systems, if there is a constitutional norm proclaiming the autonomy of the family, using the systematic interpretation of the legal system, we can eliminate this ban on reproof since a subconstitutional law cannot overrule the Constitution.

If in some families there was a tradition of parents raping their children should they be allowed to do so because of "autonomy of the family"?
The most optimal situation would be for the family to be replaced by a state-collective cooperative, in which the children are deprived of mother and father, brother and sister. For we all know that the father and mother commit the most harm to the life of the child.  Wink Ultimately, the state knows the best or so you believe. Sadly this is the basis of all this legislation.

The "autonomy of the family" was up to the socialist revolution a stable part of the legal and political system.

In the real world, no one thinks of committing incest against their children. The mere mention of such a thought is sickening and immoral. Immorality of this sort is most definitively off topic.
Only in Sodom and Gomorra would they carry out such a practice! Or perhaps in the Soviets..

Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #201 on: November 09, 2010, 02:49:50 PM »

In the real world, no one thinks of committing incest against their children.

You are right, such things don't happen <sarcasm>.

Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,731



« Reply #202 on: November 09, 2010, 02:57:01 PM »

For example in many countries, the autonomy of the family from state intervention is written in the Constitution.
Even if reproof is banned in some statute, in the continental legal systems, if there is a constitutional norm proclaiming the autonomy of the family, using the systematic interpretation of the legal system, we can eliminate this ban on reproof since a subconstitutional law cannot overrule the Constitution.

If in some families there was a tradition of parents raping their children should they be allowed to do so because of "autonomy of the family"?

This is a bit of a reductio ad absurdum.  Raping (or even having consensual sex with) one's children is generally a no-no in our society.  Just because raping kids is bad does not necessarily make spanking them bad as well just because the two are compared.  Essentially, raping and spanking are two different things.

Ultimately, I think parents should generally have the ultimate say in raising their children, and spanking should be an option up until someone through scientific study thoroughly links spanking children with negative behavior that is detrimental to society.  To my understanding, no conclusive study of this sort has been carried out.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #203 on: November 09, 2010, 02:58:53 PM »

For me spanking is a no-no too.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
synLeszka
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 532


« Reply #204 on: November 09, 2010, 02:59:26 PM »

In the real world, no one thinks of committing incest against their children.

You are right, such things don't happen <sarcasm>.
They do not happen. In reality they do not happen.
One incident in Austria does not create an universal rule that parents are prone to incest toward their children. This is not the 1/0 function but the probability and statistical possibility of such an occurence.
Claiming that the family should be regulated as if it were a toxic substance is an infringement on the natural state of things.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #205 on: November 09, 2010, 03:02:31 PM »

In the real world, no one thinks of committing incest against their children.

You are right, such things don't happen <sarcasm>.
They do not happen. In reality they do not happen.
One incident in Austria does not create an universal rule that parents are prone to incest toward their children.

Don't you watch the news?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,641



« Reply #206 on: November 09, 2010, 03:15:15 PM »

For example in many countries, the autonomy of the family from state intervention is written in the Constitution.
Even if reproof is banned in some statute, in the continental legal systems, if there is a constitutional norm proclaiming the autonomy of the family, using the systematic interpretation of the legal system, we can eliminate this ban on reproof since a subconstitutional law cannot overrule the Constitution.

If in some families there was a tradition of parents raping their children should they be allowed to do so because of "autonomy of the family"?
The most optimal situation would be for the family to be replaced by a state-collective cooperative, in which the children are deprived of mother and father, brother and sister. For we all know that the father and mother commit the most harm to the life of the child.  Wink Ultimately, the state knows the best or so you believe. Sadly this is the basis of all this legislation.

The "autonomy of the family" was up to the socialist revolution a stable part of the legal and political system.

In the real world, no one thinks of committing incest against their children. The mere mention of such a thought is sickening and immoral. Immorality of this sort is most definitively off topic.
Only in Sodom and Gomorra would they carry out such a practice! Or perhaps in the Soviets..
Or the Vatican: the supreme pontiff personally giving the OK that Alois Hitler could marry his niece, Klara Pölzl, with whom he was having an affair (she was 16, he 39) while cohabitating with another woman while married to a third, there being "no divorce in Catholic families."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
synLeszka
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 532


« Reply #207 on: November 09, 2010, 03:15:59 PM »

For example in many countries, the autonomy of the family from state intervention is written in the Constitution.
Even if reproof is banned in some statute, in the continental legal systems, if there is a constitutional norm proclaiming the autonomy of the family, using the systematic interpretation of the legal system, we can eliminate this ban on reproof since a subconstitutional law cannot overrule the Constitution.

If in some families there was a tradition of parents raping their children should they be allowed to do so because of "autonomy of the family"?

This is a bit of a reductio ad absurdum.  Raping (or even having consensual sex with) one's children is generally a no-no in our society.  Just because raping kids is bad does not necessarily make spanking them bad as well just because the two are compared.  Essentially, raping and spanking are two different things.

Ultimately, I think parents should generally have the ultimate say in raising their children, and spanking should be an option up until someone through scientific study thoroughly links spanking children with negative behavior that is detrimental to society.  To my understanding, no conclusive study of this sort has been carried out.

There are many studies which link reproof (what you call spanking) with negative behaviour except not in those words.
Those studies usually say something along the line of "incursion into the freedom of the child's psyche by stressors which hinder its growth and holistic development".  
The fault line is between the "autonomy of the family" and the "child's so-called 'freedom"". Proponents of the emancipation of children, blindly following their ideological doctrines, seem to forget that a child is a child. You cannot give a 14 year old the same responsibilites you would an adult can you? In their dialect yes you can.. Although the fact is that the majority of these people do not have children and do not want to have children.  

Logged
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,948



« Reply #208 on: November 09, 2010, 04:05:35 PM »

There should not be an "autonomy" for corporal punishment. Even the member states of the EU do not have this authority, e.g. Germany or Poland wouldn't be allowed by Brussels to introduce corporal punishment for theft or whatever.

If whole countries do not have this right, how can it be accorded to the family? I seriously hope that every state will do everything it can to end child beating. (Maybe some day even the US, but that might take 100 years more...)
Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #209 on: November 09, 2010, 04:25:25 PM »

In the real world, no one thinks of committing incest against their children. The mere mention of such a thought is sickening and immoral. Immorality of this sort is most definitively off topic.
Only in Sodom and Gomorra would they carry out such a practice! Or perhaps in the Soviets..

I don't know about the incest, but legal marriage is definitely something that Bolsheviks hated and wanted to abolish. In December 1917, the Council of People's Comissars issued a decree, signed by its chairman (Lenin), stating that from now on, all of these so-called "marriages" are null and void and that any woman is free to enter in a sexual relationship with any man and vice versa (http://nnm.ru/blogs/la_van/russkaya_seksualnaya_revolyuciya/#cut). In 1919, the director of the newly founded "Institute of Social Hygiene," Batkis, reported to the CPC that "throughout the country, sexual unions have become what they really are supposed to be, i.e. a private matter of our citizens." At about the same time, Alexandra Kollontai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_Kollontai), the People's Comissar for Social Welfare, made fiery speeches where she said that a conscientious revolutionary has no right to tie him- or herself up with this bourgeous prejudice called "family," and that the young people must be brought up in the notion that "to have sex with anyone you want must be as easy as to drink a glass of water." The posters shown on this site, http://nnm.ru/blogs/la_van/russkaya_seksualnaya_revolyuciya/#cut, made in the early 1920-s, say that "every male member of the Young Communist League has the right and the obligation to fulfill his sexual desires, and every female member must help him with that, or else she is a petty bourgeoise."

Interestingly, Stalin had a completely different opinion on marriage, family, and sex. There were rumours about him having a few mistresses and some illegitimate children, but he never boasted about that the way other top Bolshevik leaders did. His close associates, like his personal secretary Bazhenov, were under the impression that Stalin hated women and had no interest in pursuing them whatsoever. Soon after he became the most powerful figure in the USSR, in the early 1930-s, he outlawed abortions and made the procedure of divorce very complicated. Sexual relations between men became a criminal offense. Stalin also hated pornography and sexual innuendo in poetry and popular songs.
Logged

Love never fails.
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,948



« Reply #210 on: November 09, 2010, 04:50:54 PM »

In France, incest between consenting adults is legal.
Logged
synLeszka
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 532


« Reply #211 on: November 09, 2010, 05:55:20 PM »

There should not be an "autonomy" for corporal punishment. Even the member states of the EU do not have this authority, e.g. Germany or Poland wouldn't be allowed by Brussels to introduce corporal punishment for theft or whatever.

If whole countries do not have this right, how can it be accorded to the family? I seriously hope that every state will do everything it can to end child beating. (Maybe some day even the US, but that might take 100 years more...)

____________
In France, incest between consenting adults is legal.


The Human Rights regulation is not associated with the EU but with the Council of Europe and its Human Rights Convention.
The banning of corporal punishment are either in the European Human Rights Convention or its protocols.
Art. 3 of the Convention bans tortures and articles 7 states that punishment is solely carried out by the state in the boundaries of the statutes or the rule nullum crimen, nulla poena sine lege. These two articles form the basis of the ban on corporal punishments as it has been expounded in the ECHR's cases.
Quote
Article 7
No punishment without law
1. No one shall be held guilty of any criminal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a criminal offence under national or international law at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the criminal offence was committed.
2. This Article shall not prejudice the trial and punishment of any person for any act or omission which, at the time when it was committed, was criminal according to the general principles of law recognised by civilised nations.[/quote[
The EU states or the signatory states of the European Human Rights Convention, can do as they please, neither the EU nor the Council of Europe and its Court of HR, have practically any binding power on member states. Theoretically, it is called a symphony in which the harmonisation (of everything) is lead by the European Commission, toward the accomplishment of the goals set out by the Founding Treaties, which are the stability of the agricultural market and free trade area. Translating what symphony and harmonisation mean is practically impossible. The law of the EU and all international organisations is relative, being based not on what some international or ultra-national organ states but on the intrepretations by courts and doctrine accepted in member states.

In my opinion, there are things which cannot be eliminated from social life because they are normal. Today you may scoff at so-called "child beating" but for hundreds of years, adultery and homosexual corporal copulation were against the law. Both of these moral incidents are questionable but they are inevitable and cannot be eliminated.

Anyways, I do not believe that law can be used to save us from ourselves. Thomas a Kempis said that the devout want to penalise others by laws which they could themselves not fathom. I think that is thought is applicable here.

That's a funny thing.. Legalise incest between adults but delegalise the parents' authority...
Logged
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,731



« Reply #212 on: November 09, 2010, 08:11:00 PM »

For me spanking is a no-no too.

That is a choice for you.  If you have a better means of disciplining your children that works for you and your family, then that is wonderful!  I just think you should allow that same choice to be made by other people without fear of legal retaliation.
Logged
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 7,731



« Reply #213 on: November 09, 2010, 08:22:12 PM »

For example in many countries, the autonomy of the family from state intervention is written in the Constitution.
Even if reproof is banned in some statute, in the continental legal systems, if there is a constitutional norm proclaiming the autonomy of the family, using the systematic interpretation of the legal system, we can eliminate this ban on reproof since a subconstitutional law cannot overrule the Constitution.

If in some families there was a tradition of parents raping their children should they be allowed to do so because of "autonomy of the family"?

This is a bit of a reductio ad absurdum.  Raping (or even having consensual sex with) one's children is generally a no-no in our society.  Just because raping kids is bad does not necessarily make spanking them bad as well just because the two are compared.  Essentially, raping and spanking are two different things.

Ultimately, I think parents should generally have the ultimate say in raising their children, and spanking should be an option up until someone through scientific study thoroughly links spanking children with negative behavior that is detrimental to society.  To my understanding, no conclusive study of this sort has been carried out.

There are many studies which link reproof (what you call spanking) with negative behaviour except not in those words.
Those studies usually say something along the line of "incursion into the freedom of the child's psyche by stressors which hinder its growth and holistic development".  
The fault line is between the "autonomy of the family" and the "child's so-called 'freedom"". Proponents of the emancipation of children, blindly following their ideological doctrines, seem to forget that a child is a child. You cannot give a 14 year old the same responsibilites you would an adult can you? In their dialect yes you can.. Although the fact is that the majority of these people do not have children and do not want to have children.  



You are correct in asserting that the fault line is between the proponents of "family autonomy" and "the freedom of children".  Ultimately, I think that children have few responsibilities and depending on the age cannot adequately perform most of the responsibilities of an adult.  Children have an obligation to obey their parents given from God (one of those Commandment thingies that liberals believe should never under any circumstance be allowed to be shown in public).  Likewise, parents have a duty to discipline their children.  This is both a spiritual on often legal responsibility.  In many states parents are responsible when their children commit crimes.  I have heard that in China parents are billed for the bullet used to execute their children if the state is force to execute them when the parent should have done a better job raising them (this could be an urban legend).  Say what you will about these practices but its a fact that in many places parents are held responsible for raising children rather than the state.

It is my opinion that parents should be allowed to raise their children as they see fit so long as in doing so they do not do something exceptionally detrimental.  In my experience, controlled spanking has not had a detrimental effect on my life.  This is just my experience, other people's may vary.  But I suggest that there are many different methods of raising children and some parents may find that physical discipline works best in their family.
Logged
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,948



« Reply #214 on: November 10, 2010, 08:27:30 AM »

The EU has its own human rights legislation and bodies, in addition to the Council of Europe:
See for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_Rights_Agency
Logged
Alive
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 514


« Reply #215 on: November 10, 2010, 07:46:32 PM »

With “no spanking law” it get worse.
People, now wish to control every thing…..
People start harass us even manner and reason we discipline our kids verbally.
-   “you to hard”
-   “ it is not pleasant to hear what you say”
-   “you to pushy”
-   “ It is no nice to say it”
etc. countless. Every day. It was never this way 10 years ago. Now every one think them have rights and obligation every thing in order as them wish.

I glad I could speak few languages….. but then people start complane about them not understand what I speak to my childe…. 
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,288



WWW
« Reply #216 on: November 22, 2010, 03:30:53 PM »

With “no spanking law” it get worse.
People, now wish to control every thing…..
People start harass us even manner and reason we discipline our kids verbally.
So what? We have a law against hurting one's spouse (men or women).
That doesn't make it right or wrong to get involved in people's spouse arguments, does it?

Logged
lizzyd
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 54


« Reply #217 on: November 22, 2010, 04:05:20 PM »

We've made the decision not to spank for many reasons. Just a few... First, I don't believe it's consistent with how Jesus treated children. Second, there is evidence that the few Bible verses that seemingly condone spanking are actually not speaking of spanking children. Third, spanking is only a short-term solution; you can only spank when a child is smaller than you. I don't believe that "might makes right." Fourth, there are other ways to deal with discipline issues; ways that can be even more effective than spanking.

I am finding that choosing gentle discipline is effective at teaching my son the things he needs to know, and it is also quite effective at teaching me how to become a better parent and a better person in general.
Logged
Agia Marina
Site Supporter
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Bulgarian Diocese
Posts: 414


Father Theodor Micka


WWW
« Reply #218 on: November 22, 2010, 09:16:42 PM »

My ex and I had a "Three Times" rule for willful disobedience.  I can count on the fingers of one hand how often my son was spanked.
Logged

“When I have a little money I buy books; and if any is left, I buy food and clothes.” - Erasmus

"God became man so that man might become a god." ~St. Athanasius the Great

Poster formerly known as EVOO.
Alive
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 514


« Reply #219 on: November 23, 2010, 03:00:53 AM »

We've made the decision not to spank for many reasons. Just a few... First, I don't believe it's consistent with how Jesus treated children. Second, there is evidence that the few Bible verses that seemingly condone spanking are actually not speaking of spanking children. Third, spanking is only a short-term solution; you can only spank when a child is smaller than you. I don't believe that "might makes right." Fourth, there are other ways to deal with discipline issues; ways that can be even more effective than spanking.

I am finding that choosing gentle discipline is effective at teaching my son the things he needs to know, and it is also quite effective at teaching me how to become a better parent and a better person in general.

Bla-bla-bla-bla….

It is not about what some one believe or not believe.
“Believe” – is wrong word to justify such law.
Any one who use “believe” to such cases are speculation matters.

1.   Jesus was not children care giver on daily basis,
2.   “Bible” provide regular recommendation about kids no mater of age need to be discipline, and spanking some times best solution.
3.   Any solution is short term solution – we all will die shortly. Spanking is no thing less as physical correction. Physical correction may have number of application(restrain, voice level etc), and spanking is not worse one. And it is not matter of size or age.
4.   As it was mention before there spanking is not only solution but it is one of many way of discipline we need use accordingly to situation.

Government use force for correction? Yes.
Would any government ever stop use force? No.
So all such statements about not spanking are bran washing.

Once again. Spanking is not only solution, but if it needed need to be apply.

Some kids never need to be spank, some occasionally, some depending on age.
If kid out of verbal perception and attention and it not about to change any soon, spanking is great solution to return him/her to reality and make think.

Case 1: Breast feeding baby baiting nipples. It is good workable way to stop baiting nipples by lips gentle spank. It indication about “wrong doing” not punishment. It is correction not punishment.

Case 2: Boxing coach use mitts to spank as indication of error – again it is not punishment – it is correction.





So all “anti spanking” people , simply uneducated and unsober. Or deliberately targeting destroy family etc.
Logged
Alive
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 514


« Reply #220 on: November 23, 2010, 03:00:54 AM »

With “no spanking law” it get worse.
People, now wish to control every thing…..
People start harass us even manner and reason we discipline our kids verbally.
So what? We have a law against hurting one's spouse (men or women).
That doesn't make it right or wrong to get involved in people's spouse arguments, does it?


So all “anti spanking” people , simply uneducated and unsober. Or deliberately targeting destroy family etc.




“Spanking” and “Hurting” are deferent matters.


You cane enforce gay marriage law and than invent animal marriage law, but is not mean I should accept it as true .

Govermant respects multi time remarriage and we say it is wrong and disagree and not respect this as marriage in most cases.
Logged
CBGardner
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 618


Ask w/ tears, seek w/ obedience, knock w/ patience


« Reply #221 on: February 04, 2011, 10:15:58 PM »

My parents always alluded to the following verses:
Proverbs 23:13-14
"13Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
14Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell"

Proverbs 13:24
"24He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."
Logged

Authentic zeal is not directed towards anything but union in Christ, or against anything but our own fallenness.

"Beardliness is next to Godliness."- Asteriktos
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,948



« Reply #222 on: February 04, 2011, 10:45:47 PM »

My parents always alluded to the following verses:
Proverbs 23:13-14
"13Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
14Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell"

Proverbs 13:24
"24He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

Did your parents also abstain from eating pork, and from wearing garments of wool and linen?

Logged
lizzyd
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 54


« Reply #223 on: February 04, 2011, 10:52:44 PM »

Interesting research on the rod Scriptures in this pdf: Christian parents and the spanking controversy

(Not specifically Orthodox but I'm not aware of a similar Orthodox resource...)
Logged
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,948



« Reply #224 on: February 04, 2011, 11:38:50 PM »

Interesting research on the rod Scriptures in this pdf: Christian parents and the spanking controversy

(Not specifically Orthodox but I'm not aware of a similar Orthodox resource...)
It is not only "not specifically Orthodox", but it is even specifically Protestant. All of this seems to be based on the Hebrew text, whereas Orthodoxy uses the Septuagint.

Anyway, I really do not understand why some people actually want to use violence against their children. Psychologists would say that the greatest advocates of violent educations are the ones who suffered from that themselves when they were children, and now they subconsciously want to pass on the pain to their own children. I would whether there is some truth to that.

Anyway, Christ did not even use violence to prevent crucifixion, who am I to use violence because a child misbehaves? Is killing the one who is True Man and True God not much worse than anything a child could ever do wrong?
Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.158 seconds with 73 queries.