OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 22, 2014, 06:04:24 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Whole parish received into catachumenate  (Read 7070 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« on: February 16, 2009, 05:03:02 PM »

Quote
On Sunday February 8th, 2009, Fr. Michael Keiser trekked out to the plains of West Texas and received 41 people as catechumens into the Holy Orthodox Church.

St. Clement Church in Muleshoe, Texas began in September 1997 as a small group doing the Office of evening prayer on Wednesday nights and was affiliated with the Charismatic Episcopal Church.  Fr. Sergio Leal was ordained to the deaconate in April 1998 and began serving a Deacon's Mass. In November of the same year was ordained to the priesthood. In April 2000, St. Clement purchased a church building where they currently worship.

In 2006, the Diocese of the South Central along with other dioceses, separated from the Charismatic Episcopal Church and formed another communion.

After much prayer and dialogue with others who have walked a similar path, it was decided that it was time to come home. The people of St. Clement would like to express their gratitude to Metropolitan PHILIP, Bishop BASIL and the whole Vicariate for making a way. To God be the glory!

source

I understood that the parishioners and their Priest became catachumens, but haven't became Orthodox yet. So their Mass was hetherothodox. So why the Antiochian Priest - Fr. Michael is wearing a stole during their service. I thought that stole in WR is the same as epitrachelion in Byzantine Rite - the basic liturgical vestment, which is the only one necessary thing needed to be worn by a priest. So this would mean that AOA's Father was concelebrating with Priest who was still Charismatic Episcopal.


« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 05:17:21 PM by mike » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2009, 05:23:41 PM »

If I'm reading it right, it sounds like they were all chrismated Orthodox.

This isn't uncommon in the Antiochian Diocese.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2009, 05:28:30 PM »

Quote
Fr. Michael Keiser trekked out to the plains of West Texas and received 41 people as catechumens into the Holy Orthodox Church

So they're now catechumens or Orthodox? Maybe it's my lack of knowledge of English but for me this means that they're catechumens now.

BTW Do they use St. Tikhon's or St Gregory's? And did similar thing occur in past when whole parish converted to Orthodoxy together?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2009, 05:29:58 PM »

Interesting! Thank you, Mike.
Logged

Love never fails.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,052


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2009, 05:31:02 PM »

If I'm reading it right, it sounds like they were all chrismated Orthodox.

This isn't uncommon in the Antiochian Diocese.

Actually, the article says they were made "catechumens" in the Church, which means they're on the path to Baptism and Chrismation (as necessary).
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2009, 05:32:47 PM »

Actually, it says they were just made catechumens.

And if you look closely, Mike, you'll see that Fr. Michael is not wearing his stole when the CEC priest is elevating the host, only a pectoral cross.  In all other photos -- where, you'll notice, the CEC priest isn't vested -- he's wearing his stole.

God bless Father Michael Keiser.  He used to be the priest at the church we attended in Tulsa.  A true missionary gem if there ever was one. "Trekked" is right; that man will go out to Podunk, TX or wherever for the sake of the very few.  God grant him many more years with us.
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,370



« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2009, 05:32:55 PM »

Quote
On Sunday February 8th, 2009, Fr. Michael Keiser trekked out to the plains of West Texas and received 41 people as catechumens into the Holy Orthodox Church.

St. Clement Church in Muleshoe, Texas began in September 1997 as a small group doing the Office of evening prayer on Wednesday nights and was affiliated with the Charismatic Episcopal Church.  Fr. Sergio Leal was ordained to the deaconate in April 1998 and began serving a Deacon's Mass. In November of the same year was ordained to the priesthood. In April 2000, St. Clement purchased a church building where they currently worship.

In 2006, the Diocese of the South Central along with other dioceses, separated from the Charismatic Episcopal Church and formed another communion.

After much prayer and dialogue with others who have walked a similar path, it was decided that it was time to come home. The people of St. Clement would like to express their gratitude to Metropolitan PHILIP, Bishop BASIL and the whole Vicariate for making a way. To God be the glory!

source

I understood that the parishioners and their Priest became catachumens, but haven't became Orthodox yet. So their Mass was hetherothodox. So why the Antiochian Priest - Fr. Michael is wearing a stole during their service. I thought that stole in WR is the same as epitrachelion in Byzantine Rite - the basic liturgical vestment, which is the only one necessary thing needed to be worn by a priest. So this would mean that AOA's Father was concelebrating with Priest who was still Charismatic Episcopal.
It doesn't seem he is wearing a stole while the other priest is fully vested, so I don't think he is concelebrating.  If a Divine Liturgy was to be celebrated, Fr. Keiser would be the one celebrating it, as the other isn't an Orthodox priest yet.  The pictures with Fr. Keiser and stole seem to be the reception into the catechumate.

Btw, Glory to God! May He confirm the Western rite He has planted.

btw, I had the honor and pleasure to meet Father Keiser in Florida at St. Andrew's.  He has been tireless for the Western Rite (years ago he sent me a book of his that was an Orthodox Catechism, but coming from the Western Rite.  At St. Andrew's I got the Western Rite version he did of the Antiochian red prayer book, and another commentary of his on the Divine Liturgy).
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 05:36:44 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2009, 05:38:23 PM »

So my following questions are:
  • How are their Masses regarded by the EO Church (conducting Priest is a catechumen but still not Orthodox)?
  • What Antiochian Priest was doing on their Mass dressed as he was concelebrating?

I don't mean to make some another polemical discussion. Western Rite is something completely new for me and they're still many thing what I want to know.

edit:
Thanks ialmisry and DavidBryan, so my second question is no longer valid. Is there any special rite or prayer which is used to receive people to catechumenate? May I get a text somewhere on the net?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,370



« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2009, 05:48:19 PM »

So my following questions are:
  • How are their Masses regarded by the EO Church (conducting Priest is a catechumen but still not Orthodox)?
  • What Antiochian Priest was doing on their Mass dressed as he was concelebrating?

I don't mean to make some another polemical discussion. Western Rite is something completely new for me and they're still many thing what I want to know.

edit:
Thanks ialmisry and DavidBryan, so my second question is no longer valid. Is there any special rite or prayer which is used to receive people to catechumenate? May I get a text somewhere on the net?

In the Western Rite, I don't know. I'll have to see where I misplaced my service book and see if it's there.

In the Constantinople rite, it's the same service that is now part of the Baptismal service, right before the exorcisms.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Reader KevinAndrew
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Western Rite
Posts: 138



« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2009, 06:03:06 PM »

Thanks ialmisry and DavidBryan, so my second question is no longer valid. Is there any special rite or prayer which is used to receive people to catechumenate? May I get a text somewhere on the net?

Catechumens are admitted in a very short service that is done right before Mass. We usually do it between Matins and Mass. The catechumen(s) is(are) received at the door of the church.

The service is in the Orthodox Ritual and not in the Missal.

Hope that helps.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2009, 06:07:42 PM »

But it seems that they're received after the Mass because it wasn't valid (couldn't find a more suitable word).

So my remaining questions are:
- How is their Mass regarded now by the Orthodox?
- What Liturgy will they use when they convert (St. Tikhon's or St. Gregory's)?
- Is it the first time a whole parish wants to convert?

Sorry for stealing your time but it's extremely intersting.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Reader KevinAndrew
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Western Rite
Posts: 138



« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2009, 06:08:03 PM »

There is another CEC group that are now catechumens and are currently undergoing instruction. They are a group in Lewistown, MD and are part of a CEC church called Lamb of God church. They are supposed to be chrismated sometime before Easter. Both my priest (from St. Gregory's in Washington, DC) and the priest from St. Patrick's in Warrenton, VA are instructing the group.
Logged
Reader KevinAndrew
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Western Rite
Posts: 138



« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2009, 06:19:41 PM »

But it seems that they're received after the Mass because it wasn't valid (couldn't find a more suitable word).

So my remaining questions are:
- How is their Mass regarded now by the Orthodox?
- What Liturgy will they use when they convert (St. Tikhon's or St. Gregory's)?
- Is it the first time a whole parish wants to convert?

Sorry for stealing your time but it's extremely intersting.

Let me see if I can answer. I am not familiar with the details of this particular group, but we have had very similar experiences in the DC area, so I can make a few comments:

1. The reception of catechumens is a stand alone service. It is very short and in Orthodox parishes (Western rite), it is done before the Mass. If there is no Orthodox parish (as it seems to be the case here), the priest can do the reception on its own.

2. There is no Mass at this parish, unless a priest celebrates it, or if there is a deacon that conducts a deacon's mass with a reserved sacrament there. If neither is the case, the group does Matins and Vespers.

3. The choice of St. Tikhon's or St. Gregory's is generally made with the approval of the bishop and in consultation with him, the priest overseeing the catechism, and discussion with the group involved.

4. Yes, whole parishes have been received into the Western rite before. The two most recent parishes here in the DC area were received as entire parishes (St. Patrick's in Warrenton and Holy Trinity in Lynchburg, VA). In both cases, our priest catechized the groups, as well as celebrated Mass when he was at the locations. In a few cases, a deacon would visit and celebrate a deacon's mass with the reserved sacrament. In neither case did catechumens celebrate Mass on their own. That would serve no point.
Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2009, 06:27:05 PM »

2. There is no Mass at this parish, unless a priest celebrates it, or if there is a deacon that conducts a deacon's mass with a reserved sacrament there. If neither is the case, the group does Matins and Vespers.

But on one of the pictures there is Host being elevated by that Protestant priest. I suppose it was just before the taking into catechumes. What for? The last Episcopalian Mass just to say goodbye? The last Mass before the Priest-catechumen has gap before becoming Orthodox?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 06:30:21 PM by mike » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Reader KevinAndrew
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Western Rite
Posts: 138



« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2009, 06:33:55 PM »

2. There is no Mass at this parish, unless a priest celebrates it, or if there is a deacon that conducts a deacon's mass with a reserved sacrament there. If neither is the case, the group does Matins and Vespers.

But on one of the pictures there is Host being elevated by that Protestant priest. I suppose it was just before the taking into catechumes. What for? The last Episcopalian Mass just to say goodbye? The last Mass before the Priest-catechumen has gap become Orthodox?

I think that is what it is, as you described. If you see, this former priest is being received as a catechumen in an alb with no other vestments on. Notice in another picture that he is in his alb only and the rest of his vestments (for example his cincture) are on the altar. I think that most likely he celebrated his last Mass and then put away his vestments and was received as a catechumen. All former clergy in the instances enter as laymen in the catechumate. This gentleman would be no exception.

I know someone who would have more info on this group to verify what you and I stated above.

Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2009, 06:36:29 PM »

Thanks for your exhaustive answers. Now everything's clear to me Smiley
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2009, 06:40:01 PM »

If I'm reading it right, it sounds like they were all chrismated Orthodox.

This isn't uncommon in the Antiochian Diocese.

Actually, the article says they were made "catechumens" in the Church, which means they're on the path to Baptism and Chrismation (as necessary).

My apologies, thanks for the clarification.  Smiley
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2009, 06:58:53 PM »

No, there is one more thing: will be this Father Sergio a layman or a priest after his charismation?
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
arimethea
Getting too old for this
Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 2,968


Does anyone really care what you think?


« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2009, 07:36:01 PM »

No, there is one more thing: will be this Father Sergio a layman or a priest after his charismation?
Well he is not a presbyter until he is ordained and he must first be chrismated before he can be ordained. As far as I know the only "clergy" that Antioch would simply receive are those from an Oriental background since their reception is almost always by confession.
Logged

Joseph
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,370



« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2009, 07:39:48 PM »

No, there is one more thing: will be this Father Sergio a layman or a priest after his charismation?
Well he is not a presbyter until he is ordained and he must first be chrismated before he can be ordained. As far as I know the only "clergy" that Antioch would simply receive are those from an Oriental background since their reception is almost always by confession.

Yes, no Anglican of any sort has been received as a priest into Orthodoxy.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
The young fogey
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,645


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2009, 07:49:07 PM »

Yes, obviously Fr Michael is not vested and is not concelebrating. Nice to see he seems to be in traditional Roman Rite/Anglo-Catholic gear, cassock and mozetta (shoulder cape that an Anglo-Catholic rector wears). I can understand a last Mass before converting but so doing when no longer under a bishop doesn't make much sense (though valid in Western sensibilities).

The CEC were a recent success story in new denominations, a church of about 15 years' standing of Pentecostals who read the church fathers and in moving catholicwards became do-it-yourself anglicans (they were never Anglicans/Episcopalians) picking up vagante orders from a Brazilian church's bishops along the way. Not an imaginary church: real churches and congregations. But they imploded recently: sex scandals with some of the bishops and they didn't quite get how the episcopal thing is supposed to work so they freaked out about it like Pentecostals and split up.

Unlike a former Roman Catholic or Eastern Rite Catholic priest, like an Anglican Fr Sergio will be treated like a layman until he's ordained Orthodox.

Although they weren't Anglican really I can imagine St Clement's doing what the ex-Anglican majority in the AWRV do and use 'St Tikhon', the still ad-hoc modified American Missal (itself a modified US 1928 Book of Common Prayer Communion service - the Orthodox version has no filioque and a stronger epiclesis and is clearer about the sacrifice and change of the elements) and 1928 BCP offices of Morning and Evening Prayer. (More or less what a high-Episcopal parish did around 1960 and what 'Continuing' breakway American ex-Episcopalians who left in the 1970s use. It looks a lot like the Tridentine Mass but sounds very different: the texts are different.)

A complete though unofficial AWRV BCP with the American Missal-based Mass is in the final stages before printing.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 07:50:46 PM by The young fogey » Logged

Reader KevinAndrew
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Western Rite
Posts: 138



« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2009, 08:38:04 PM »

No, there is one more thing: will be this Father Sergio a layman or a priest after his charismation?

Layman
Logged
Reader KevinAndrew
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Western Rite
Posts: 138



« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2009, 08:47:13 PM »


Although they weren't Anglican really I can imagine St Clement's doing what the ex-Anglican majority in the AWRV do and use 'St Tikhon', the still ad-hoc modified American Missal (itself a modified US 1928 Book of Common Prayer Communion service - the Orthodox version has no filioque and a stronger epiclesis and is clearer about the sacrifice and change of the elements) and 1928 BCP offices of Morning and Evening Prayer. (More or less what a high-Episcopal parish did around 1960 and what 'Continuing' breakway American ex-Episcopalians who left in the 1970s use. It looks a lot like the Tridentine Mass but sounds very different: the texts are different.)

A complete though unofficial AWRV BCP with the American Missal-based Mass is in the final stages before printing.

As more of these former CEC groups are coming into the WR, it seems like it is turning more into a mixed bag as to which mass they wind up using. St. Patrick's is using St. Gregory. I'm not certain, but I think the new group in Lewistown, MD might be using St. Gregory also. The group that was catechized and is now Holy Trinity Church in Lynchburg is using St. Tikhon. It will be interesting to see how the choices go as  more CEC groups decide to be recieved into the Orthodox Church, using the Western Rite.
Logged
Starlight
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA (Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Posts: 1,537


« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2009, 10:44:07 PM »

St. Gregory's in Washington, DC

I visited that parish a couple of times when I lived in DC. It is a truly nice parish. Very enjoyable to visit.

Actually, a couple of more parishes came to Orthodoxy in Massachusetts in November of 2008:
Emmanuel Orthodox Catholic Church, Warren, MA.
http://www.emmanuelorthodox.org/
St. Stephen Orthodox Catholic Church, Springfield, MA.
http://www.ststephensorthodox.org/


Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,370



« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2009, 11:05:51 PM »

St. Gregory's in Washington, DC

I visited that parish a couple of times when I lived in DC. It is a truly nice parish. Very enjoyable to visit.

Actually, a couple of more parishes came to Orthodoxy in Massachusetts in November of 2008:
Emmanuel Orthodox Catholic Church, Warren, MA.
http://www.emmanuelorthodox.org/
St. Stephen Orthodox Catholic Church, Springfield, MA.
http://www.ststephensorthodox.org/




Yes.  Father Keiser, when I was in Florida, had just come back from MA.

Btw, Holy Incarnation, formerly Lutherans, in Detroit celebrates St. Gregory DL.  VERY High Mass.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Starlight
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA (Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Posts: 1,537


« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2009, 11:36:20 PM »

Yes.  Father Keiser, when I was in Florida, had just come back from MA.

Btw, Holy Incarnation, formerly Lutherans, in Detroit celebrates St. Gregory DL.  VERY High Mass.

Therefore, Fr. Michael Keiser seems involved pretty much almost in every group conversion to Western Orthodoxy? This is amazing!!!

Iamisry, does Fr. Michael have a parish, where he serves either as a Pastor or as a frequent celebrant?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 11:37:32 PM by Starlight » Logged
arimethea
Getting too old for this
Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 2,968


Does anyone really care what you think?


« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2009, 12:55:16 AM »

Yes.  Father Keiser, when I was in Florida, had just come back from MA.

Btw, Holy Incarnation, formerly Lutherans, in Detroit celebrates St. Gregory DL.  VERY High Mass.

Therefore, Fr. Michael Keiser seems involved pretty much almost in every group conversion to Western Orthodoxy? This is amazing!!!

Iamisry, does Fr. Michael have a parish, where he serves either as a Pastor or as a frequent celebrant?

Fr. Michael Keiser is one of two priest that are supported by the Mission and Evangelism Department of the Antiochian Archdiocese. His ministry is to minister to new missions and to help them get their feet off the ground. He is often times the first pastor of almost every mission founded in the last 15 years in the central and southern United States for the Antiochians.
Logged

Joseph
Starlight
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA (Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Posts: 1,537


« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2009, 01:14:48 AM »

Yes.  Father Keiser, when I was in Florida, had just come back from MA.

Btw, Holy Incarnation, formerly Lutherans, in Detroit celebrates St. Gregory DL.  VERY High Mass.

Therefore, Fr. Michael Keiser seems involved pretty much almost in every group conversion to Western Orthodoxy? This is amazing!!!

Iamisry, does Fr. Michael have a parish, where he serves either as a Pastor or as a frequent celebrant?

Fr. Michael Keiser is one of two priest that are supported by the Mission and Evangelism Department of the Antiochian Archdiocese. His ministry is to minister to new missions and to help them get their feet off the ground. He is often times the first pastor of almost every mission founded in the last 15 years in the central and southern United States for the Antiochians.

Thank you very much, Arimethea! I appreciate your response.

Fr. Michael Keiser seems to be a hero of our times! His calling seems above and beyond terrific. If only we would have (100) people like him is USA...
Logged
Ian Lazarus
The Main Man!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: AOA
Posts: 1,545


yIjah, Qey' 'oH!


« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2009, 02:15:57 AM »

I'm waiting for the day we can recieve an entire city in catacumate!

Lets start small...maybe.....Los Angeles? Grin
Logged

"For I am With thee, withersoever thou goest"

Joshua 1:9
Starlight
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA (Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Posts: 1,537


« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2009, 07:42:18 PM »

I'm waiting for the day we can recieve an entire city in catacumate!

Lets start small...maybe.....Los Angeles? Grin
It would be so perfect! Smiley
Logged
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2009, 08:21:46 PM »

Yes, obviously Fr Michael is not vested and is not concelebrating. Nice to see he seems to be in traditional Roman Rite/Anglo-Catholic gear, cassock and mozetta (shoulder cape that an Anglo-Catholic rector wears). I can understand a last Mass before converting but so doing when no longer under a bishop doesn't make much sense (though valid in Western sensibilities).

The CEC were a recent success story in new denominations, a church of about 15 years' standing of Pentecostals who read the church fathers and in moving catholicwards became do-it-yourself anglicans (they were never Anglicans/Episcopalians) picking up vagante orders from a Brazilian church's bishops along the way. Not an imaginary church: real churches and congregations. But they imploded recently: sex scandals with some of the bishops and they didn't quite get how the episcopal thing is supposed to work so they freaked out about it like Pentecostals and split up.

Unlike a former Roman Catholic or Eastern Rite Catholic priest, like an Anglican Fr Sergio will be treated like a layman until he's ordained Orthodox.

Although they weren't Anglican really I can imagine St Clement's doing what the ex-Anglican majority in the AWRV do and use 'St Tikhon', the still ad-hoc modified American Missal (itself a modified US 1928 Book of Common Prayer Communion service - the Orthodox version has no filioque and a stronger epiclesis and is clearer about the sacrifice and change of the elements) and 1928 BCP offices of Morning and Evening Prayer. (More or less what a high-Episcopal parish did around 1960 and what 'Continuing' breakway American ex-Episcopalians who left in the 1970s use. It looks a lot like the Tridentine Mass but sounds very different: the texts are different.)

A complete though unofficial AWRV BCP with the American Missal-based Mass is in the final stages before printing.


Yupp, I remember when it split too. Semptember of 2006. That's when I spoke to an Orthodox priest at the ancient future catholic website (where alot of CEC's were thinking about becoming Roman Catholic). And we spoke over the phone, for I told him, that I wanted to become Orthodox (because when I stopped following David Bercot in 2003, I started questioning why I wasn't Orthodox (again, for I tried to become Orthodox years before..so the question popped up again). But I was in an ECUSA Anglo-Catholic Parish in Pittsburgh (because there were no CEC parishes in Pittsburgh at that time), but when I saw them(the CEC) self destruct in Semptember of 2006. That's when I said, "there's no point in me remaining protestant anymore". So I visited the Parish I was suppose to call first, and then I called and months later was chrismated.


But yeah, everything you said was true!!! I remember it well.





JNORM888
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 08:22:08 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,370



« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2009, 10:18:51 PM »

But it seems that they're received after the Mass because it wasn't valid (couldn't find a more suitable word).

So my remaining questions are:
- How is their Mass regarded now by the Orthodox?
- What Liturgy will they use when they convert (St. Tikhon's or St. Gregory's)?
- Is it the first time a whole parish wants to convert?

Sorry for stealing your time but it's extremely intersting.

No, this has become quite common now in the U.S.  I don't know about elsewhere.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
filipinopilgrim
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 130


« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2009, 12:43:47 AM »

Does anybody know how many CEC and Lutheran parishes have been received into the AWRV in the past 4 years?
Logged
The young fogey
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,645


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2009, 11:29:16 AM »

But it seems that they're received after the Mass because it wasn't valid (couldn't find a more suitable word).

So my remaining questions are:
- How is their Mass regarded now by the Orthodox?

There is no defined doctrine on that. Most will say it's not the same as an Eastern Orthodox Liturgy/Western Rite Orthodox Mass (because only the church can have sacraments really) but within that is a range of opinion from a kind of recognition to saying the people get grace from it even though it's not the Liturgy (probably the commonest view) to saying it's absolutely null and utterly void.
Logged

The young fogey
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,645


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2009, 11:35:46 AM »

Does anybody know how many CEC and Lutheran parishes have been received into the AWRV in the past 4 years?

I don't know the ex-CEC numbers and know of no Lutheran parishes that have switched. What happened in Detroit was a 'Lutho-Catholic' Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod pastor, Fr John Fenton (and, most unusual, he went by Father as a Lutheran), 'doxed and revived a longstanding AWRV parish (ex-Episcopalians from the 1970s) that closed. (Actually some of it including the priest restarted as a Continuing anglican - not Anglican - parish and is still around in that form but that's another story. I understand they and the local Orthodox are still friendly though of course not in communion.) Fr Fenton's old parish, Zion, is still in the LCMS.
Logged

Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2009, 01:19:06 PM »

IF its true that they are joinging Eastern Orthodoxy, then praise God!
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Mexican
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria
Posts: 489


« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2009, 12:02:31 PM »

Is Fr. Sergio Leal Mexican?

Do you know about Canonical Spanish-speaking Orthodox congregations using the Western Rite?

In Mexico all Canonical Orthodox are Eastern Rite (being ethnic Mexican or from other background).

However, I've seen in the yellow directory the names of some small independent churches that call themselves "Orthodox" and are actually Western Rite (RC breakaway and sometimes vagante).

It would be interesting to reach them and see if they would like to become real Orthodox.

However, who would take the responsability to receive them into Orthodoxy? The AOC here is still very ethnic and Arabic-speaking. The Exarchate only uses the Eastern Rite and the Greek Diocese is now too weak because of its scandals.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,370



« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2009, 12:16:21 PM »

Is Fr. Sergio Leal Mexican?

Do you know about Canonical Spanish-speaking Orthodox congregations using the Western Rite?

In Mexico all Canonical Orthodox are Eastern Rite (being ethnic Mexican or from other background).

However, I've seen in the yellow directory the names of some small independent churches that call themselves "Orthodox" and are actually Western Rite (RC breakaway and sometimes vagante).

It would be interesting to reach them and see if they would like to become real Orthodox.

However, who would take the responsability to receive them into Orthodoxy? The AOC here is still very ethnic and Arabic-speaking. The Exarchate only uses the Eastern Rite and the Greek Diocese is now too weak because of its scandals.
Maybe someone should bring it to the attention of the Western Rite Vicariate, which has jurisdiction wherever Metropolitan Philip is metropolitan.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
The young fogey
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,645


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2009, 12:49:30 PM »

Do you know about Canonical Spanish-speaking Orthodox congregations using the Western Rite?

Our Lady of Regla Church in Miami, IIRC converted Cuban exiles and their descendents, part of the AWRV.
Logged

Mexican
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria
Posts: 489


« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2009, 02:38:40 PM »

Ialmisry wrote:

Maybe someone should bring it to the attention of the Western Rite Vicariate, which has jurisdiction wherever Metropolitan Philip is metropolitan.

Does the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate of the United States have jurisdiction in Mexico even though there is an Antiochian Orthodox Diocese? If this is the case, it would be positive for them to contact them.

The head of the AOC in Mexico is known for his personal wealth and power due to his friendships with politicians. He doesn't seem to believe that the Orthodox Church must be a missionary Church among Mexicans (in about a century of presence their number of converts is insignificant) and his Church is very ethnic.

He will probably not allow the WR in Mexico because most of these small churches that I mentioned, were formerly RC and the RC might put a vetto on those churches that the AOC hierarch (because of his friendship with the RC bishops) would have to respect.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,370



« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2009, 03:08:55 PM »

Ialmisry wrote:

Maybe someone should bring it to the attention of the Western Rite Vicariate, which has jurisdiction wherever Metropolitan Philip is metropolitan.

Does the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate of the United States have jurisdiction in Mexico even though there is an Antiochian Orthodox Diocese? If this is the case, it would be positive for them to contact them.

The Vicarate is directly under Metropolitan Philip, and has jurisdiction over any WRO in the Antiochian Archdiocese.  I did not realize, but it seems Mexico is a metropolia by itself (with other Latin American countries).  So Philip would have to work out something with either the metropolitan of Mexico or the Patriarch of Antioch (who has approved the WRO).

Quote
The head of the AOC in Mexico is known for his personal wealth and power due to his friendships with politicians. He doesn't seem to believe that the Orthodox Church must be a missionary Church among Mexicans (in about a century of presence their number of converts is insignificant) and his Church is very ethnic.
Metropolitan Philip is very missionary minded (and yet very Arab).  If it is brought to his attention, perhaps he might get the ball rolling so to speak.  Archbishop Paul of Australia has also supported the WRO.

Quote
He will probably not allow the WR in Mexico because most of these small churches that I mentioned, were formerly RC and the RC might put a vetto on those churches that the AOC hierarch (because of his friendship with the RC bishops) would have to respect.

Then there's the Russians: they are less concerned with PC "ecumenism."
http://mx.geocities.com/iglesiaortmex/esp
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Starlight
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA (Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Posts: 1,537


« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2009, 12:34:29 AM »

May be this is a bit off the main topic, but there is an Eastern Rite Spanish speaking community of GOA in Florida - St. Jude Hispanic Orthodox Chapel in Miami:
http://www.goarch.org/parishes/GOA-1237

Apparently, Spanish serves as a main liturgical language at St. Jude. Very appropriate and pastoral. Also, one of the parishes of UOC-USA in Florida includes Spanish in services, Protection of Mother of God Church in Dover, FL:
 http://www.forgodiswithus.org/

The pastor, Fr. Harry Linsinbigler, an excellent priest, is fluent in Spanish. The parish also uses Eastern Rite.

Orthodoxy ministry in Spanish language has huge opportunities in the future. Both Rites can be used simultaneously.

Also, it was excellent to learn about (2) other parishes, coming to Western Rite Orthodoxy in Virginia. Great news!

Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,370



« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2009, 12:39:14 AM »

Ialmisry wrote:

Maybe someone should bring it to the attention of the Western Rite Vicariate, which has jurisdiction wherever Metropolitan Philip is metropolitan.

Does the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate of the United States have jurisdiction in Mexico even though there is an Antiochian Orthodox Diocese? If this is the case, it would be positive for them to contact them.

The Vicarate is directly under Metropolitan Philip, and has jurisdiction over any WRO in the Antiochian Archdiocese.  I did not realize, but it seems Mexico is a metropolia by itself (with other Latin American countries).  So Philip would have to work out something with either the metropolitan of Mexico or the Patriarch of Antioch (who has approved the WRO).

Quote
The head of the AOC in Mexico is known for his personal wealth and power due to his friendships with politicians. He doesn't seem to believe that the Orthodox Church must be a missionary Church among Mexicans (in about a century of presence their number of converts is insignificant) and his Church is very ethnic.
Metropolitan Philip is very missionary minded (and yet very Arab).  If it is brought to his attention, perhaps he might get the ball rolling so to speak.  Archbishop Paul of Australia has also supported the WRO.

Quote
He will probably not allow the WR in Mexico because most of these small churches that I mentioned, were formerly RC and the RC might put a vetto on those churches that the AOC hierarch (because of his friendship with the RC bishops) would have to respect.

Then there's the Russians: they are less concerned with PC "ecumenism."
http://mx.geocities.com/iglesiaortmex/esp

I'll just add, it would be great if the Antiochians (i.e. the Arabs), if they had Spanish congregations to be involved with the resotration of the Mozarabic rite, the indigenous rite of Spain, and which was retained during the Arab/Muslim occupation as Rome couldn't force its rite on Iberia at the time.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.143 seconds with 71 queries.