OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 21, 2014, 12:36:55 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: What is the fate of heretics?  (Read 10657 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #90 on: September 18, 2009, 09:38:44 PM »


I find claims of exclusivity in the Body of Christ challenging to accept. I believe that membership is found within the heart and not by what Sacraments are efficacious.

Remember the popular addage: "We know where the Church is, but we do not know where it is not."


I do believe that the Church is Visible but I don't think that everyone who attends is saved just because they have all the right Sacraments preformed on them in their youth. I find that a bit silly.

Yes, it is. And it is not what our Church teaches. Like I pointed out, proper disposition is necessary for the Mysteries to be received to redemption.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #91 on: September 18, 2009, 09:39:57 PM »

It is because of this confusion that I am a proponent of baptizing all converts to Orthodoxy from Protestantism and Catholicism.
So my baptism and that of my Catholic family, including my deceased grandmothers and grandfathers is not acceptable and therefore there is no hope for our salvation? Thank you very much.

It doesn't appear to me that he said anything near that.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #92 on: September 18, 2009, 09:43:47 PM »

^I guess Orthodoxy isn't as technical with it's answer as that, but it amounts to the same thing.
So no. Fr. Anastasios was not saying that you and your family are hell-bound.

Still, there are other questions which might arise with the Orthodox POV of rebaptising Catholics. For one thing, the Catholic teaching is that it is wrong to repeat the Sacrament of Baptism. And then taken to its logical conclusion,  the Orthodox POV basically means that the Catholic baptism is not accepted, and therefore, neither would be the Catholic priesthood. So under such a scenario, the Pope and his Catholic cardinals and archbishops would be nothing but laymen, devoid of any Sacramental powers or Apostolic authority.

That is what some in our tradition believe.

More often, Sacraments are repeated not because we are sure that they are invalid, but rather because we are simply not sure that they are valid. We do not know if the Pope or his cardinals have Baptism or Holy Orders, and thus it is reasonable for us to make sure that if they are to be received into the Church that they have these Sacraments. This means repeating them, in case they were truly "invalid".
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #93 on: September 18, 2009, 09:45:54 PM »


And the Catholic position that Anglican Orders are invalid means that the Archbishop of Canterbury and Anglican priests are "nothing but laymen, devoid of Sacramental powers or Apostolic authority."  You can dish it out... 
I think that Catholics recognise the Anglican Baptism. There is a problem with the other Sacraments. For example, many Anglicans take a Zwinglian attitude toward Holy Communion, and view Holy Communion as a memorial banquet. This amounts to rejecting the Real Presence, which is very important from the Catholic POV. Also, Catholics see a problem with female bishops and same sex married bishops.

That the Zwinglian POV on Communion is somewhat popular among is not that significant. Consubstantiation is what is more clearly in the Anglican tradition.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #94 on: September 18, 2009, 09:55:03 PM »


2. From the Orthodox POV, what are the universally agreed upon heresies of the Roman Catholic church?

There really isn't that much universal definition on the matter.

What is commonly agreed upon?

-Confounding the infinity of the Godhead by teaching that the Essence of God may be perceived.
-Confounding the order of the Trinity by teaching that the Holy Spirit is originated from both the Father and the Son.
-Confounding the order of the Church by teaching that the Bishops of Rome has supreme jurisdictional authority, even supreme doctrinal authority.
-Teaching that the Energies of God are not actually God and are rather created by Him. Further, teaching that we may not directly participate in God's life until the beatific vision.
-Your understanding of the Atonement as found in Anselm of Canterbury and Thomas Aquinas is generally reviled.
-Teaching that there is a third state or place in the afterlife known as Purgatory. That even if Confession has been had for sins that they must still suffer punishment for them in Purgatory. Etc.
-Your understanding of meritocracy ("treasury of merit", "indulgences", etc.) is generally rejected.
-Most would say that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception is an error.

Those are the ones that come to mind right now.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #95 on: September 18, 2009, 10:01:00 PM »


This is what I find most amusing... you catagorize individuals as 'heretics' and yet in the same breath say you don't 'judge'... don't you find that ironic?  Grin

Recognizing someone as a heretic is a matter of whether or not they have rejected orthodoxy. When I speak of not judging them, I mean whether or not they will be ultimately saved. It should be quite clear that these are two very different matters, and thus there is no irony or hypocrisy.


As my study of 'all things Early Christian' I am simply not moved by such 'institutional presumption'. I don't believe God judges mankind by what 'team-shirts' are worn but by their hearts. Mincing over this doctrine or that dogma as 'measure' of one's heart isn't convincing to me as see such 'measures' to be weak in determining the quality of one's character and virtue. We will know them by their works as Our Lord spoke. Some where along the way we devolved into catagorical debate and ceased the pursuit of what is truly holy.

When did I say anything otherwise?

Again, I am speaking of how we identify the Church and where we can be confident that the fullness of the faith and Sacraments are.

That's an entirely different matter then how people will be judged.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,730


« Reply #96 on: September 18, 2009, 11:17:41 PM »


2. From the Orthodox POV, what are the universally agreed upon heresies of the Roman Catholic church?

-Your understanding of the Atonement as found in Anselm of Canterbury and Thomas Aquinas is generally reviled.
Did not St. Gregory of Nyssa have a similar teaching on the atonement ?
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #97 on: September 18, 2009, 11:27:35 PM »


2. From the Orthodox POV, what are the universally agreed upon heresies of the Roman Catholic church?

-Your understanding of the Atonement as found in Anselm of Canterbury and Thomas Aquinas is generally reviled.
Did not St. Gregory of Nyssa have a similar teaching on the atonement ?

Gregory of Nyssa is one of my favorites, and if I remember correctly, he taught a modified version of ransom theory.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,730


« Reply #98 on: September 19, 2009, 12:00:10 AM »


2. From the Orthodox POV, what are the universally agreed upon heresies of the Roman Catholic church?

-Your understanding of the Atonement as found in Anselm of Canterbury and Thomas Aquinas is generally reviled.
Did not St. Gregory of Nyssa have a similar teaching on the atonement ?

Gregory of Nyssa is one of my favorites, and if I remember correctly, he taught a modified version of ransom theory.
Is that objectionable from the Orthodox POV? How would the teaching on atonement of St. Gregory of Nyssa differ from the official Roman Catholic teaching on atonement?
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #99 on: September 19, 2009, 12:41:46 AM »


2. From the Orthodox POV, what are the universally agreed upon heresies of the Roman Catholic church?

-Your understanding of the Atonement as found in Anselm of Canterbury and Thomas Aquinas is generally reviled.
Did not St. Gregory of Nyssa have a similar teaching on the atonement ?

Gregory of Nyssa is one of my favorites, and if I remember correctly, he taught a modified version of ransom theory.
Is that objectionable from the Orthodox POV? How would the teaching on atonement of St. Gregory of Nyssa differ from the official Roman Catholic teaching on atonement?

No. The ransom theory, given a particular understanding (more like Gregory of Nyssa than Origen), has been and is widely accepted within the EOC.

Anselm of Canterbury developed the honor-debt view of atonement.

Thomas Aquinas developed upon Anselm's ideas and developed an early understanding of penal substitution.

The RCC has never gone so far as to accept the extreme penal substitution of Luther an Calvin, but Aquinas early version is pretty much the standard model of the RCC. And this model is what I am talking about as generally rejected by EO.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #100 on: September 19, 2009, 03:06:00 AM »

Atonement

There is an interesting essay "Salvation By Christ: A Response to Credenda
/Agenda on Orthodoxy's Teaching of Theosis and the Doctrine of Salvation,"
by Carmen Fragapane.


http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frag_salv.aspx

Carmen Fragapane writes:

"...In EH Jones writes that in Orthodoxy "discussions of substitutionary
atonement and propitiation are virtually absent from their published
explanations of salvation.

[It is absent from Bishop Kallistos Ware's The Orthodox Church]

"... the notion that redemption should be rigidly interpreted in one
particular way is itself foreign to early Christian thought: "The seven
ecumenical councils avoided defining salvation through any [one model]
alone. No universal Christian consensus demands that one view of salvation
includes or excludes all others" .

J.N.D. Kelly further explains:

"Scholars have often despaired of discovering any single unifying thought in
the Patristic teaching about the redemption. These various theories,
however, despite appearances, should not be regarded as in fact mutually
incompatible. They were all of them attempts to elucidate the same great
truth from different angles; their superficial divergences are often due to
the different Biblical images from which they started, and there is no
logical reason why, carefully stated, they should not be regarded as
complementary".

"And this is precisely what we find in Orthodoxy: "While insisting in this
way upon the unity of Christ's saving economy, the Orthodox Church has never
formally endorsed any particular theory of atonement. The Greek Fathers,
following the New Testament, employ a rich
variety of images to describe what the Savior has done for us. These models
are not mutually exclusive; on the contrary, each needs to be balanced by
the others. Five models stand out in particular: teacher, sacrifice, ransom,
victory and participation" ..."

__________________
Fr Ambrose
« Last Edit: September 19, 2009, 03:06:35 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Tags: baptism salvation heresy 
Pages: « 1 2 3  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.067 seconds with 37 queries.