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« on: February 20, 2009, 10:07:15 PM »

I'm nearly finished with Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People.  Has anyone else read this?  I find it interesting because, although Bede was pre-schism, he seems to espouse many views that later would solidify into doctrine or standard practice in the RCC. 

Some things I've noticed in his work:
1) Strong identification of Catholic = Roman. 
2) Claim of Rome's authority over whole world. 
3) Emphasis on unity of practices. 
4) Irish traditions looked down upon.  Undecided

What do you think?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 10:07:54 PM by StGeorge » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2009, 10:12:30 PM »

I'm afraid I haven't read that work by St. Bede the Venerable, I've only read his Commentary on the Catholic Epistles. Did you happen to take notes? I'm only asking because I'd like to see quotes regarding the "Claim of Rome's authority over whole world" part. I understand if you don't have quotes handy, though.
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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2009, 12:57:10 AM »

I'm afraid I haven't read that work by St. Bede the Venerable, I've only read his Commentary on the Catholic Epistles. Did you happen to take notes? I'm only asking because I'd like to see quotes regarding the "Claim of Rome's authority over whole world" part. I understand if you don't have quotes handy, though.

From Book Two: Chapter 1:

At this time, that is, in the year of our Lord 605, the blessed Pope Gregory, after having most gloriously governed the Roman apostolic see thirteen years, six months, and ten days, died, and was translated to the eternal see of the heavenly kingdom. Of whom, in regard that he by his zeal converted our nation, the English, from the power of Satan to the faith of Christ, it behooves us to discourse more at large in our Ecclesiastical History, for we may and ought rightly to call him our apostle; because, whereas he bore the pontifical power over all the world, and was placed over the churches already reduced to the faith of truth, he made our nation, till then given up to idols, tbe church of Christ, so that we may be allowed thus to attribute to him the character of an apostle; for though he is not an apostle to others, yet he is so to us; for we are the seal of his apostleship in our Lord.

Source: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ecclesiastical_History_of_the_English_People/Book_2

I'm reading the Penguin Classics edition, and the translation and syntax is somewhat different.  The PC translation for this part reads "supreme authority over all the churches of Christendom."   



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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2009, 05:09:29 AM »

Bede was condemned by his bishop.

I think Bede is neither venerable or sainted.

Forgive, John
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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2009, 09:22:05 AM »

Bede was condemned by his bishop.

I think Bede is neither venerable or sainted.

Forgive, John

That is why the Orthodox don't Saint people based on one persons opinion but allowing God to show us.
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« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2009, 10:30:40 AM »

I'm nearly finished with Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People.  Has anyone else read this?  I find it interesting because, although Bede was pre-schism, he seems to espouse many views that later would solidify into doctrine or standard practice in the RCC. 

Some things I've noticed in his work:
1) Strong identification of Catholic = Roman. 
2) Claim of Rome's authority over whole world. 
3) Emphasis on unity of practices. 
4) Irish traditions looked down upon.  Undecided

What do you think?


I have a working theory on the supremacy part (which you find in many writers of the West, pre-schism).  It would seem that the first bishop of Rome (who didn't have the title pope at the time) from the West outside of Rome/Italy was Victor I (189), who was also the first bishop of Rome to try to exercise some supremacy over the entire Church (and for which the entire Church rebuked him).  All previous Popes came from either the East (which knew of no supremacy) or nearby Rome or at least Italy (i.e. nearly directly under Rome).  Victor would be the first to be raised in an area (North Africa) outside Rome which looked at Rome as the supreme authority, being in her patriarchate.  With that mindset, becoming bishop of Rome, thinking that all the world looked at Rome the same way, tried to act like the emperor of the Church.  That Victor had close relations with the Emperor of the Empire, Commodus (of "Gladiator" fame: he was the first emperor "born in the purple," i.e. born as heir to the Empire, and ritually refounded Rome with himself as the font of Rome.  Sort of like the Petrine Doctrine), through the Christian mistress Marcia, may have given him ideas of Rome's power.

As for Bede, you have to remember that he is in the tradition of Augustine of Cantebury, who was sent by Rome, from Rome, to the English with the point of not only converted the Anglo-Saxons, but asserting authority over the British Isles, and imposing Roman rites over the indigenous Celtic Church.
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« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2009, 01:11:26 PM »

Bede was condemned by his bishop.

I think Bede is neither venerable or sainted.

Forgive, John

That is why the Orthodox don't Saint people based on one persons opinion but allowing God to show us.

Bede's own good bishop did not act alone, thankfully.

Early in Christian history many heretical western bishops confused who was a saint.

No faithful Eastern bishop ever called Bede a saint.

Do not believe the multitudes.

Forgive, John
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« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2009, 03:59:31 PM »

Bede was condemned by his bishop.
Do you have any historical reference sources to back this up?

I think Bede is neither venerable or sainted.
Why not?

Bede's own good bishop did not act alone, thankfully.

Early in Christian history many heretical western bishops confused who was a saint.

No faithful Eastern bishop ever called Bede a saint.

Do not believe the multitudes.

Forgive, John
What evidence can you provide that we should believe you?
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« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2009, 04:18:32 PM »

Do you have any historical reference sources to back this up?

Oh, don't go seeking substantiation!
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« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2009, 05:55:03 PM »

From the Calendar of the Moscow Patriarchate.

http://days.pravoslavie.ru/en/Days/20090527.htm

May 27/June 9
Tuesday
Third Day of the Holy Trinity

Rom. 1:1-7, 13-17
Matt. 4:25-5:13

Fast-free week

Hieromartyr Therapontus, priest of Sardis (259). Virgin-martyr Theodora and Martyr Didymus the Soldier, of Alexandria (304).Martyr Julian the Veteran, at Dorostolum,Moesia (304). St. Bede the Venerable, hieromonk of Wearmouth and Jarrow (735). St. Michael of Parekhi, Georgia (8th-9th c.). St. Basil of Khakhuli, son of King Bagrat III (11th c.). St. Therapontus, abbot of Byelozersk and Mozhaisk (1426). Translation of the relics (1472) of Sts. Cyprian (1406), Photius (1431), and Jonah (1461), metropolitans of Kiev. St. Therapontus, abbot ofMonza (1597). Translation of the relics (1667) of St.Nilus of Stolben Island (1554). St. John the Russian, the Confessor, whose relics are on the island of Euboea (1730). (Gr. Cal.: Hieromartyr Helladius, bishop [6th-7th c.].)
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« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2009, 07:30:16 PM »

Do you have any historical reference sources to back this up?

Oh, don't go seeking substantiation!
Yeah, I know.  I asked the wrong person. Grin
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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2009, 12:29:10 AM »

I'm nearly finished with Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People.  Has anyone else read this?  I find it interesting because, although Bede was pre-schism, he seems to espouse many views that later would solidify into doctrine or standard practice in the RCC. 

Some things I've noticed in his work:
1) Strong identification of Catholic = Roman. 
2) Claim of Rome's authority over whole world. 
3) Emphasis on unity of practices. 
4) Irish traditions looked down upon.  Undecided

What do you think?


I have a working theory on the supremacy part (which you find in many writers of the West, pre-schism).  It would seem that the first bishop of Rome (who didn't have the title pope at the time) from the West outside of Rome/Italy was Victor I (189), who was also the first bishop of Rome to try to exercise some supremacy over the entire Church (and for which the entire Church rebuked him).  All previous Popes came from either the East (which knew of no supremacy) or nearby Rome or at least Italy (i.e. nearly directly under Rome).  Victor would be the first to be raised in an area (North Africa) outside Rome which looked at Rome as the supreme authority, being in her patriarchate.  With that mindset, becoming bishop of Rome, thinking that all the world looked at Rome the same way, tried to act like the emperor of the Church.  That Victor had close relations with the Emperor of the Empire, Commodus (of "Gladiator" fame: he was the first emperor "born in the purple," i.e. born as heir to the Empire, and ritually refounded Rome with himself as the font of Rome.  Sort of like the Petrine Doctrine), through the Christian mistress Marcia, may have given him ideas of Rome's power.

As for Bede, you have to remember that he is in the tradition of Augustine of Cantebury, who was sent by Rome, from Rome, to the English with the point of not only converted the Anglo-Saxons, but asserting authority over the British Isles, and imposing Roman rites over the indigenous Celtic Church.

Interesting theory.  I never thought of that before. 

Concerning Augustine of Cantebury: wasn't he sent by St. Gregory of Rome, the same St. Gregory who chastised the Patriarch of Constantinople for using the title "Ecumenical Patriarch"?  From what I have read of St. Gregory, he doesn't strike me as one who imposed Roman rites over indigenous rites. He rather seems one who worked with the native customs.  Bede strikes me, on the other hand, as of a different mentality--much more exclusive of non-Roman traditions. 
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« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2009, 01:28:46 PM »

Bede was condemned by his bishop.

I don't believe you.

You've posted too much on this forum that has been wrong, unsubstantiated, unsupported, or edited by you to say things that were not, in fact, what the original author said.   Changing people's words like that is, in effect, lying about them.

If you are asked for any information to back up this bald assertion without a foundation, will you give any this time?

Quote
I think Bede is neither venerable or sainted.

Why should your personal unfounded (unless supported in the future) opinion count for anything. please?
 

Ebor (tired)

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« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2009, 01:33:20 PM »

I'm nearly finished with Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People.  Has anyone else read this?  I find it interesting because, although Bede was pre-schism, he seems to espouse many views that later would solidify into doctrine or standard practice in the RCC. 

Some things I've noticed in his work:
1) Strong identification of Catholic = Roman. 
2) Claim of Rome's authority over whole world. 
3) Emphasis on unity of practices. 
4) Irish traditions looked down upon.  Undecided

What do you think?


Well, there are plenty of instances where unity of practices are emphasized.  Smiley  Re the Celtic practices there is the case of the Council of Whitby where one of the points had to do with using different methods of calculating Easter (sounds like another earlier council, doesn't it?  Wink )

I apologize if I'm sounding flippant. I wonder though if there can be a similarity in looking down on different traditions with Bede/Celtic and some EO who look down on WR...

Ebor
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« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2009, 03:08:50 PM »

Whitby settled the question.

Interesting that St. Bede (my patron saint) would be on the Russian calendar. Locally venerated since shortly after his death, St. Bede was not canonized by the Catholic Church until the end of the 19th century.

As for the surprise at his expressing views supporting papal primacy, he was far from the first and far from the last to do it.
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« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2009, 08:12:43 PM »

Interesting that St. Bede (my patron saint) would be on the Russian calendar.

That was after the firm Latinization of Russia by the Moscow Council of 1666.

Forgive, John
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« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2009, 08:18:40 PM »

Bede was condemned by his bishop.

I don't believe you.

You've posted too much on this forum that has been wrong, unsubstantiated, unsupported, or edited by you to say things that were not, in fact, what the original author said.   Changing people's words like that is, in effect, lying about them.

If you are asked for any information to back up this bald assertion without a foundation, will you give any this time?

Quote
I think Bede is neither venerable or sainted.

Why should your personal unfounded (unless supported in the future) opinion count for anything. please?
 

Ebor (tired)



Good health to you Ebor,

Nobody has ever proven me a liar here on this forum.

I am tired of modern minded Orthodox lying about what is Orthodox.

I have given more then enough proof, facts, evidence and the truth for how things really are.

Heretical western saints on unauthentic orthodox calendars after their Latin captivation are unquestionably a lie.

Forgive, John

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« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2009, 08:32:49 PM »

Whitby settled the question.
Only for those in reach of Oswiu's sword.  Btw, the date imposed was actually the Paschalia of Alexandria.

Quote
Interesting that St. Bede (my patron saint) would be on the Russian calendar. Locally venerated since shortly after his death, St. Bede was not canonized by the Catholic Church until the end of the 19th century.

We don't wait around.  Somewhere I saw something that Jerome wasn't canonized pre-schism.

Quote
As for the surprise at his expressing views supporting papal primacy, he was far from the first and far from the last to do it.

Indeed.  Btw, noticed the boldface on Catholic
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« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2009, 08:33:14 PM »

Nobody has ever proven me a liar here on this forum.
Why do we need to prove you a liar if you've never proven yourself truthful?

I have given more then enough proof, facts, evidence and the truth for how things really are.
Not when the only authority you ever cite here is yourself.

Heretical Western Saints on unauthentic Orthodox calendars after their Latin captivation are a lie.
Now, back to the topic of this thread:  When all you can do to defend the truth of your assertion is undermine the credibility of your opponents by calling them heretics, how strong is your argument, really?  So..., what historical authorities OUTSIDE OF YOURSELF can you cite as evidence that the Venerable Bede was a heretic?
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« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2009, 08:39:30 PM »

Bede was condemned by his bishop.

I don't believe you.

You've posted too much on this forum that has been wrong, unsubstantiated, unsupported, or edited by you to say things that were not, in fact, what the original author said.   Changing people's words like that is, in effect, lying about them.

If you are asked for any information to back up this bald assertion without a foundation, will you give any this time?

Quote
I think Bede is neither venerable or sainted.

Why should your personal unfounded (unless supported in the future) opinion count for anything. please?
 

Ebor (tired)



Good health to you Ebor,

Nobody has ever proven me a liar here on this forum.

I am tired of modern minded Orthodox lying about what is Orthodox.

I have given more then enough proof, facts, evidence and the truth for how things really are.

Heretical western saints on unauthentic orthodox calendars after their Latin captivation are unquestionably a lie.

Forgive, John


Interesting how you say you are transitioning to the "Old Faith," as no one believed as the Old Ritualists before 1666, in particular the Priestless.  What they did do is cling to Old Rituals.  How you do that without priests, or with priests who received their orders from the Church you condemn, I'm rather interested in knowing.
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« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2009, 09:56:43 PM »

Bede was condemned by his bishop.

When? Which bishop? What date? What charges? Put up, or shut up; I too have grown tired of these statements tossed off without the slightest detail or justification.

Quote
I think Bede is neither venerable or sainted.

And nobody should care what you think in the matter. Here's a bit of fact from the Wikipedia article:
Bede's cult became prominent in England during the 10th century revival of monasticism, and by the 14th century had spread to many of the cathedrals of England. Wulfstan, Bishop of Worcester (c. 1008-11095) was a particular devotee of Bede's, dedicating a church to him in 1062, which was Wulfstan's first undertaking after his consecration as bishop.


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« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2009, 01:38:39 AM »


We don't wait around.  Somewhere I saw something that Jerome wasn't canonized pre-schism.

Yes he was. If he were canonized post-schism, we would have a date of canonization. His feast has been on the calendar since time immemorial.

Whenever St. Bede was canonized doesn't matter. It took 400 years for St. Thomas More. The Venerable Bede is just as much a saint as Saint Francis, just like Phil Niekro is just as much a Hall of Famer as Walter Johnson.

He's also a Doctor of the [Catholic] Church---the only English one.

I would be interested in finding out when Bede made it on the Russian calendar, however.


Indeed.  Btw, noticed the boldface on Catholic

I bold it to make sure that unsuspecting readers of the forum know that though I post on OC.net, I am not Eastern Orthodox.
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« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2009, 10:19:48 AM »

Nobody has ever proven me a liar here on this forum.

The facts of counter information with supporting links, corrections to statements and exact quotes from others that show where you have changed their words or omitted parts of their writings to make them seem to fit your personal preferences are in threads on this forum.  Perhaps you have not seen then since they are in threads that have asked you repeatedly for more information that you did not then give or asked questions that you did not answer.


Quote
I have given more then enough proof, facts, evidence and the truth for how things really are.

Personal opinions and pet ideas repeated are not "proof" nor "evidence".  You have stated things as "fact" that you have not provided any other support for aside from you saying it.  One example from a year and a half ago roughly is when you wrote "Bathing has been known a pagan custom which we would do well to avoid." When more information was requested you replied " The good old Christian attitude toward "bathing" is recorded more than well enough, but I will work to offer a few refrences about it..."  Yet since then you have not provided any such information.

You have not proven yourself to be truthful, as Peter wrote. Your opinions are just that without any support and not to be taken by anyone as applicable to reality.  Sad

Ebor
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« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2009, 10:57:50 AM »

Amen....seriously, couldn't have said it better myself.
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