OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 23, 2014, 10:27:40 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church & Ecumenical Ideas  (Read 2017 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,374


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« on: February 15, 2009, 10:01:43 AM »

This particular ecclesiastical statement has come up in discussions recently.  I took a class last semester which really got into some particulars on this statement, in the light of ecumenical dialogue.  IN the effort to make sense of everything I heard in that class, and in the effort to have a discussion on ecumenical dialogue's impact on our ecclesiology, etc. I was hoping to put some statements here that we could begin discussing. 

** Important typing note:  every time you see "OHCA" = One Holy Catholic and Apostolic (church)

Quote
IN the past we have operated with a notion that we live in the light and those who do not have the same culture as us live in darkness.  We cannot operate with this understanding. The HS and the grace of God is everywhere present.  There is no darkness after the birth, resurrection, descending of the HS.  As we move in a missionary field we must be willing to hear the people in their differences and try to discern the hidden JC and presence of God in them.  Augustinian view, we move from fullness of catholicity to partial understandings.  You are not trying to fight, but enrich.  You are not trying to fight the changing world, but approach it in a positive way (John XXIII).  The people who are fighting and see enemies everywhere they cannot see the operation of God in new historical developments. 

Quote
For us we have identified the church with the OC.  If we approach the church not from the perspective of its canonical boundaries but from Eucharist and from its pneumatological dimensions, we have to see that the fullness of the church is lived and experienced in Eucharist, aspects of that fullness can be found beyond the boundaries of the canonical OC.  In the Eucahrist we pray for the salvation of the whole world, the whole creation is sanctified.  Somehow through the prayers of the church the whole cosmos is united with God.  There is something of God in others, therefore. 

Quote
John Karmires speaks about the church, canonical church, and the church in the wider sense.  The church in its wider sense does not have boundaries.  This can be found in Lumen Gentium (paragraph 16), speaking about those who have not yet heard the Gospel but are related to God’s people.  We have to understand that the church in its widest sense embraces the whole creation which has a consequence for the way we do missions.  There is something of God in others. 

Quote
Does the world have any mission to the church?  What is the mission of the world to the church?  Some say that the world has nothing to do with the church b/c the church has the whole truth.  The LG opens the possibility that the church may learn.  The Christians may learn from the world how to live the Christian vocation, through critique of the church performance in history, through the action of the HS in the world, and the church must have a critical relationship with the world.  The world also has the grace of God and therefore must be attentive to its critique and its life, and understand how it can enter the church’s life. 

Quote
Orthodoxy is the fullness, but the fullness spills over and aspects of the fullness can be found in others attempting to live in the Gospel.  The RC believes that the OHCA church subsists in the RC church.  What do we as OC believe?  Do we believe that the OHCA subsists in orthodoxy or that the OHCA IS orthodoxy?  What does that mean for those who are not in the OC?  Discussion…

Quote
I experience and live the fullness of the OHCA in the OC church, without excluding the RC and other churches which exist beyond the canonical bounds of the catholic church.  The eucharist is the church, so the fullness of the church is in Eucharist.  If the church is Christ, you cannot limit JC in the canonical limits of the church.  Our problem as OC is that we did not participate in the reformation issues.  Ecclesiologically we have not understood the status of Reformist churches.  We have considered them as heretics, but also fellow Christians. 

Quote
What are the normative principles:  that the unity of the church matters.  The Augustinians would say that there is a grace of God in different degrees in other Christian communities.  Whatever is in these religious communities, it belongs to the church.  Some have the bible, other eucharist, etc.  there are different degrees.  We do have the fullness of the church, of JC, and that fullness can be found in the celebration of the Eucharist.   It is the event of the baptized faithful united in faith, life and witness.  The LG is about the wider sense of the church.  Yes the fullness of the church is in the eucharist but not LIMITED within the canonical boundaries of the church, it is a sacrament of the whole creation. 

Quote
We must not refuse to recognize the presence of God in the others.  If the church IS the OHCA church (what is the meaning of subsists), because when you identify the church, Christ with the OC or the RC church with the word “is” then you are limiting Christ only within the canonical boundaries of the canonical church. 

When we say the church is Christ, can you say that Christ IS the OC?  Or, is Christ the OC and much more than that?  That is the real question.  When we say OHCA church we speak about Christ.  Can we identify the fullness of JC in a permanent and limited way with a particular Christian church?  It is the body of Christ, you can experience the fullness of JC in the OC, but JC is much more than what the canonical boundaries symbolize. 

Quote
The eucharist is not a historical thing, it an eschatological event.  The GOA is a historical embodiment of Christ.  When we celebrate the eucahrist by the HS we move from history to eschatology.  But the Christ we experience is much more than what we experience in the church.  I don’t want the historical to limit the eschatological.  I can experience the OHCA in the OC we acknowledge that the historical structures and celebration of the Eucharist I can experience the fullness of Christ, but the fullness of Christ is much more than the historical embodiment. 

The OC in every aspect of its life is not reflecting its eschatological dimensions.  The unity with the risen Christ is an act of the HS.  It is an event of God’s grace and not my accomplishment.  As long as I live in history I will not identify the fullness of Christ with any historical structures.  It is an eschatological event.  Although I experience the fullness of Christ in a particular structure. 

The truth is the risen Christ.  I experience the fullness of the risen Christ by the work of the HS within the OC.  But the risen Christ is a meta-historical event, it is greater than what the church can embody in any aspect of its life, except those aspects that reflect the work of the HS. 

Quote
I experience the OHCA in the OC, through the experience of the eucharist.  The LG says that there are people baptized and in the church but not with Christ.  For Clapsis the OHCA is Christ, the risen JC, lived in the church through the work of the HS.  We speak about the fullness of JC in the church, but the reverse is not true.  The church is not always the reflection of the risen Christ.  Christ is fully revealed in the Eucharist and by experiencing this, it is not always true that the church reflects the plentitude of the risen Christ in its life. 

The church constantly receives what it is.  We must allow the HS to lead us and not allow the institutional aspects to rule our lives.  How does the church exist?  By invoking the HS that unites us with the risen Christ.  There is no church without the invocation of the HS.  But, if the church thinks that b/c it is the church, as a historical institution it does not need to invoke the HS and allow the risen Christ to form its identity then the church is not the church. 

Quote
Other churches have some elements of God’s grace but not fullness as I understand it.  Now is it theirs, or part of the OHCA.  I would say that it is an overflow of the OHCA.  Christ is present in history through the church but the church is a Pentecostal event and the reverse is not always true.  That means that the church must constantly re-receive JC through the work of the HS. 

Quote
Some bishops, priests, laity believe that they are the fullness of the church w/o illumination of the HS.  I accept the fullness of the church can be in the OC, but not every aspect of church life reflects that fullness. 

There is much more to this if anyone wants to read it.  PM me your e-mail if you want the whole document. 



Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,680



« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2009, 03:27:59 PM »

This particular ecclesiastical statement has come up in discussions recently.  I took a class last semester which really got into some particulars on this statement, in the light of ecumenical dialogue.  IN the effort to make sense of everything I heard in that class, and in the effort to have a discussion on ecumenical dialogue's impact on our ecclesiology, etc. I was hoping to put some statements here that we could begin discussing. 

** Important typing note:  every time you see "OHCA" = One Holy Catholic and Apostolic (church)

Quote
IN the past we have operated with a notion that we live in the light and those who do not have the same culture as us live in darkness.  We cannot operate with this understanding. The HS and the grace of God is everywhere present.  There is no darkness after the birth, resurrection, descending of the HS.  As we move in a missionary field we must be willing to hear the people in their differences and try to discern the hidden JC and presence of God in them.  Augustinian view, we move from fullness of catholicity to partial understandings.  You are not trying to fight, but enrich.  You are not trying to fight the changing world, but approach it in a positive way (John XXIII).  The people who are fighting and see enemies everywhere they cannot see the operation of God in new historical developments. 

Quote
For us we have identified the church with the OC.  If we approach the church not from the perspective of its canonical boundaries but from Eucharist and from its pneumatological dimensions, we have to see that the fullness of the church is lived and experienced in Eucharist, aspects of that fullness can be found beyond the boundaries of the canonical OC.  In the Eucahrist we pray for the salvation of the whole world, the whole creation is sanctified.  Somehow through the prayers of the church the whole cosmos is united with God.  There is something of God in others, therefore. 

Quote
John Karmires speaks about the church, canonical church, and the church in the wider sense.  The church in its wider sense does not have boundaries.  This can be found in Lumen Gentium (paragraph 16), speaking about those who have not yet heard the Gospel but are related to God’s people.  We have to understand that the church in its widest sense embraces the whole creation which has a consequence for the way we do missions.  There is something of God in others. 

Quote
Does the world have any mission to the church?  What is the mission of the world to the church?  Some say that the world has nothing to do with the church b/c the church has the whole truth.  The LG opens the possibility that the church may learn.  The Christians may learn from the world how to live the Christian vocation, through critique of the church performance in history, through the action of the HS in the world, and the church must have a critical relationship with the world.  The world also has the grace of God and therefore must be attentive to its critique and its life, and understand how it can enter the church’s life. 

Quote
Orthodoxy is the fullness, but the fullness spills over and aspects of the fullness can be found in others attempting to live in the Gospel.  The RC believes that the OHCA church subsists in the RC church.  What do we as OC believe?  Do we believe that the OHCA subsists in orthodoxy or that the OHCA IS orthodoxy?  What does that mean for those who are not in the OC?  Discussion…

Quote
I experience and live the fullness of the OHCA in the OC church, without excluding the RC and other churches which exist beyond the canonical bounds of the catholic church.  The eucharist is the church, so the fullness of the church is in Eucharist.  If the church is Christ, you cannot limit JC in the canonical limits of the church.  Our problem as OC is that we did not participate in the reformation issues.  Ecclesiologically we have not understood the status of Reformist churches.  We have considered them as heretics, but also fellow Christians. 

Quote
What are the normative principles:  that the unity of the church matters.  The Augustinians would say that there is a grace of God in different degrees in other Christian communities.  Whatever is in these religious communities, it belongs to the church.  Some have the bible, other eucharist, etc.  there are different degrees.  We do have the fullness of the church, of JC, and that fullness can be found in the celebration of the Eucharist.   It is the event of the baptized faithful united in faith, life and witness.  The LG is about the wider sense of the church.  Yes the fullness of the church is in the eucharist but not LIMITED within the canonical boundaries of the church, it is a sacrament of the whole creation. 

Quote
We must not refuse to recognize the presence of God in the others.  If the church IS the OHCA church (what is the meaning of subsists), because when you identify the church, Christ with the OC or the RC church with the word “is” then you are limiting Christ only within the canonical boundaries of the canonical church. 

When we say the church is Christ, can you say that Christ IS the OC?  Or, is Christ the OC and much more than that?  That is the real question.  When we say OHCA church we speak about Christ.  Can we identify the fullness of JC in a permanent and limited way with a particular Christian church?  It is the body of Christ, you can experience the fullness of JC in the OC, but JC is much more than what the canonical boundaries symbolize. 

Quote
The eucharist is not a historical thing, it an eschatological event.  The GOA is a historical embodiment of Christ.  When we celebrate the eucahrist by the HS we move from history to eschatology.  But the Christ we experience is much more than what we experience in the church.  I don’t want the historical to limit the eschatological.  I can experience the OHCA in the OC we acknowledge that the historical structures and celebration of the Eucharist I can experience the fullness of Christ, but the fullness of Christ is much more than the historical embodiment. 

The OC in every aspect of its life is not reflecting its eschatological dimensions.  The unity with the risen Christ is an act of the HS.  It is an event of God’s grace and not my accomplishment.  As long as I live in history I will not identify the fullness of Christ with any historical structures.  It is an eschatological event.  Although I experience the fullness of Christ in a particular structure. 

The truth is the risen Christ.  I experience the fullness of the risen Christ by the work of the HS within the OC.  But the risen Christ is a meta-historical event, it is greater than what the church can embody in any aspect of its life, except those aspects that reflect the work of the HS. 

Quote
I experience the OHCA in the OC, through the experience of the eucharist.  The LG says that there are people baptized and in the church but not with Christ.  For Clapsis the OHCA is Christ, the risen JC, lived in the church through the work of the HS.  We speak about the fullness of JC in the church, but the reverse is not true.  The church is not always the reflection of the risen Christ.  Christ is fully revealed in the Eucharist and by experiencing this, it is not always true that the church reflects the plentitude of the risen Christ in its life. 

The church constantly receives what it is.  We must allow the HS to lead us and not allow the institutional aspects to rule our lives.  How does the church exist?  By invoking the HS that unites us with the risen Christ.  There is no church without the invocation of the HS.  But, if the church thinks that b/c it is the church, as a historical institution it does not need to invoke the HS and allow the risen Christ to form its identity then the church is not the church. 

Quote
Other churches have some elements of God’s grace but not fullness as I understand it.  Now is it theirs, or part of the OHCA.  I would say that it is an overflow of the OHCA.  Christ is present in history through the church but the church is a Pentecostal event and the reverse is not always true.  That means that the church must constantly re-receive JC through the work of the HS. 

Quote
Some bishops, priests, laity believe that they are the fullness of the church w/o illumination of the HS.  I accept the fullness of the church can be in the OC, but not every aspect of church life reflects that fullness. 

There is much more to this if anyone wants to read it.  PM me your e-mail if you want the whole document. 




Ecclesiastical statement, Lumen Gentium?  What does that have to do with Orthodoxy, i.e. the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church?

One might make the arguement that the Orthodox Church doesn't have the fullness of Christ (not saying a good argument), but one can't argue that the other "churches" can fill what is "lacking."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 6,015



« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2009, 12:34:19 PM »

What is the source of the original quote posted by Serb 1389?

It sounds a lot like Met. John Zizoulias (sp?) of Pergamum, or one a respective counterpart in the RC, but I could be way off.

Forgive me for saying so, but this is typical ecumenical bs, saying that we are lacking something.  We may be lacking actual people, but we don't lack the true faith.  Having one does not equal the other.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,254


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2009, 04:32:51 PM »

Forgive me for saying so, but this is typical ecumenical bs, saying that we are lacking something.  We may be lacking actual people, but we don't lack the true faith.  Having one does not equal the other.
Where does serb1389 actually say we're lacking something?
Logged
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,374


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2009, 09:43:32 PM »

What is the source of the original quote posted by Serb 1389?

It sounds a lot like Met. John Zizoulias (sp?) of Pergamum, or one a respective counterpart in the RC, but I could be way off.

Forgive me for saying so, but this is typical ecumenical bs, saying that we are lacking something.  We may be lacking actual people, but we don't lack the true faith.  Having one does not equal the other.

As I said in my original post, the quotes were from a class I took at Holy Cross:  Ecclesiology.  So the quotes were from a lecture that I thought was pertinent to my question.  If you want the whole document you can see some of the background to this, and some of the further explanations.  I think I would be breaking copyright laws if I posted the whole thing (not sure about it but didn't want to risk it). 

How exactly are we lacking something, and how did you get that idea from what I posted?  I thought that his convoluted way of saying things rather explained that we HAVE and ARE the church, but at the same time the other churches "subsist" (Lumen Gentium) or have a part of the faith, truth, etc. so does that mean that necessarily we DON'T have the whole church. 

I think it's just very convoluted, which is why I was trying to find some help.  PLUS the problem has been brought up in other threads, so I thought i'd just synthesize and bring it all to one thread to bring the question of One Holy Catholic and Apostolic, to the fro. 

I think it would be great if anyone could tackle these statements. 
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
Starlight
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA (Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Posts: 1,537


« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2009, 11:23:15 PM »

Serb1389, thank you for bringing up excellent quotes and ideas.
Logged
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,374


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2009, 11:58:03 PM »

Serb1389, thank you for bringing up excellent quotes and ideas.

Thank you!  Just trying to make sense of it all.  I thought maybe people would want to discuss the crux of the issue, but no bites yet.   Smiley
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 6,015



« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2009, 03:30:19 PM »

^Forgive me for not being very clear, Serb1389.   I read your quotes and though it was never stated that the Orthodox Church lacks anything, the intent of the "ecumenical movement" and its desire to include Orthodoxy in its endeavors of "church unity" is done precisely because the other "churches" are convinced that we do lack something--namely them.  the quotes you relayed that the grace we have overflows and fills others, if only to a point. 

BTW, who was the teacher of this Ecclesiology class?  Just curious.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,374


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2009, 04:02:58 PM »

^Forgive me for not being very clear, Serb1389.   I read your quotes and though it was never stated that the Orthodox Church lacks anything, the intent of the "ecumenical movement" and its desire to include Orthodoxy in its endeavors of "church unity" is done precisely because the other "churches" are convinced that we do lack something--namely them.  the quotes you relayed that the grace we have overflows and fills others, if only to a point. 

BTW, who was the teacher of this Ecclesiology class?  Just curious.

Fr. Emmanuel Clapsis was the professor.  I don't see how you got the statement that the other churches think that we are missing them.  Can you possibly explain your point there and how you derived to it? 

Do you think that our grace flows to the others and etc?  And if you have an argument against it can you tell me what it is? 
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
ROCORthodox
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 301



« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2009, 03:10:31 PM »

Excellent thread!  It will be interesting to read the responses to the questions above.
Logged
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,374


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2009, 01:09:48 AM »

Excellent thread!  It will be interesting to read the responses to the questions above.

So would I!  It doesn't seem like many want to discuss this...?  Do you have any ideas? 
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2009, 01:44:33 AM »

^Forgive me for not being very clear, Serb1389.   I read your quotes and though it was never stated that the Orthodox Church lacks anything, the intent of the "ecumenical movement" and its desire to include Orthodoxy in its endeavors of "church unity" is done precisely because the other "churches" are convinced that we do lack something--namely them.  the quotes you relayed that the grace we have overflows and fills others, if only to a point. 

BTW, who was the teacher of this Ecclesiology class?  Just curious.

Fr. Emmanuel Clapsis was the professor.  I don't see how you got the statement that the other churches think that we are missing them.  Can you possibly explain your point there and how you derived to it? 

Do you think that our grace flows to the others and etc?  And if you have an argument against it can you tell me what it is? 


Brother serb ...Why are you in a greek new calendar seminary..Don't we serbians have our own seminarys were you can get educated ..i have a fear that when you finished you won't be the same.. you probably be a your allright/im allright type of person and bring it in to the serbian chuch and delute our ancient way... I hope not though....
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
LBK
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,777


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2009, 03:49:13 AM »

Brother serb ...Why are you in a greek new calendar seminary..Don't we serbians have our own seminarys were you can get educated ..i have a fear that when you finished you won't be the same.. you probably be a your allright/im allright type of person and bring it in to the serbian chuch and delute our ancient way... I hope not though....

Dear brother Stashko

May I remind you that the integrity and correctness of one's Orthodoxy does not depend on which calendar one's "home" church uses, nor which ethnic group it is associated with. I have had many years' experience in churches of both calendars, and I can assure you, the "Orthodoxy" of both is the same. The new calendar is not a heresy, it is an aberration, an anomaly. If it were heretical, no canonical old-calendar church would be in communion with any canonical new-calendar church. The Church of Greece is in full communion with the Orthodox churches of Russia, Serbia, Romania, Poland, Bulgaria, and many others which are canonical. Those Churches also recognise each other. The Patriarchs and First Hierarchs of these churches are listed in their diptychs, and, during hierarchical liturgies, each of them is commemorated by name at the Great Entrance.

I hope this is good enough for you.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 03:51:43 AM by LBK » Logged
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,374


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2009, 06:55:26 AM »

^Forgive me for not being very clear, Serb1389.   I read your quotes and though it was never stated that the Orthodox Church lacks anything, the intent of the "ecumenical movement" and its desire to include Orthodoxy in its endeavors of "church unity" is done precisely because the other "churches" are convinced that we do lack something--namely them.  the quotes you relayed that the grace we have overflows and fills others, if only to a point. 

BTW, who was the teacher of this Ecclesiology class?  Just curious.

Fr. Emmanuel Clapsis was the professor.  I don't see how you got the statement that the other churches think that we are missing them.  Can you possibly explain your point there and how you derived to it? 

Do you think that our grace flows to the others and etc?  And if you have an argument against it can you tell me what it is? 


Brother serb ...Why are you in a greek new calendar seminary..Don't we serbians have our own seminarys were you can get educated ..i have a fear that when you finished you won't be the same.. you probably be a your allright/im allright type of person and bring it in to the serbian chuch and delute our ancient way... I hope not though....

I never said that I agreed with any of the statements from this class.  In fact, i'm trying to figure out if they are valid myself!  Also, i'm actually taking ANOTHER ecclessiology class with ANOTHER (different) professor, who is saying things totally opposite to what have been said in the first class. 

Anyway, as to my personal history, I wrote you a PM about it. 
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
ROCORthodox
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 301



« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2009, 08:11:31 AM »

"In fact, i'm trying to figure out if they are valid myself!"

** I am in the same boat. The question of the MP's involvement in the WCC was/is a burning issue for ROCOR upon merging with the MP. We (ROCOR) were told
that a stipulation was inserted into the WCC membership agreement by the MP which states something to the effect that the Orthodox members will not support any positions, statements or activities which go against our canons or dogmatic teaching. Never the less, our Metropolitan Hilarion has made two requests to the MP for them to leave the WCC. The last request was made to Patriarch Kirill when ROCOR attended the election last month.  The first was at ROCOR's first participation in an MP sobor which was headed by Patriarch Alexi II.  As I mentioned already, both requests were made by Met. Hilarion.

That some kind of stipulation to Orthodox membership I mentioned above was introduced tells me that there are obvious elements in the WCC program which certainly conflict with Orthodox canons and dogma.


 " Also, i'm actually taking ANOTHER ecclessiology class with ANOTHER (different) professor, who is saying things totally opposite to what have been said in the first class."

** I would be interested in learning what you are being told here as well. 
Logged
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,374


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2009, 01:03:52 AM »

"In fact, i'm trying to figure out if they are valid myself!"

** I am in the same boat. The question of the MP's involvement in the WCC was/is a burning issue for ROCOR upon merging with the MP. We (ROCOR) were told
that a stipulation was inserted into the WCC membership agreement by the MP which states something to the effect that the Orthodox members will not support any positions, statements or activities which go against our canons or dogmatic teaching. Never the less, our Metropolitan Hilarion has made two requests to the MP for them to leave the WCC. The last request was made to Patriarch Kirill when ROCOR attended the election last month.  The first was at ROCOR's first participation in an MP sobor which was headed by Patriarch Alexi II.  As I mentioned already, both requests were made by Met. Hilarion.

That some kind of stipulation to Orthodox membership I mentioned above was introduced tells me that there are obvious elements in the WCC program which certainly conflict with Orthodox canons and dogma.

IF you find those conflicts let me know.  I wonder if you could take a look at the statements i made above and tell me how you disagree with them.  I think this is critical to the discussion.

Quote
" Also, i'm actually taking ANOTHER ecclessiology class with ANOTHER (different) professor, who is saying things totally opposite to what have been said in the first class."

** I would be interested in learning what you are being told here as well.

I don't mind sending you the notes.  I'm only halfway through the class, so I feel bad sending you "half" of the ideas.  But if you don't mind that, then just PM me your e-mail. 
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
Tags: ecclesiology the Church ecumenism 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.115 seconds with 43 queries.