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Author Topic: Fatima Once Again  (Read 11376 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mark of Ephesus
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« Reply #90 on: February 13, 2009, 07:59:23 AM »

I don't hold any wild and crazy thoughts of converting any of my Orthodox brethern to the Catholic Church...

Joining the Red Sox Nation is another matter to discuss over a cold brew and brauts...


We call it " beer & hot dogs" in Texas.  Grin
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« Reply #91 on: February 13, 2009, 08:09:51 AM »

I don't hold any wild and crazy thoughts of converting any of my Orthodox brethern to the Catholic Church...

Joining the Red Sox Nation is another matter to discuss over a cold brew and brauts...


We call it " beer & hot dogs" in Texas.  Grin

IIRC, Aussies would call it "a coldie - or a tinnie - and snags"  - Australian members, please correct me if I'm wrong! Don't want to insult you, given the horrific fires Down Under...
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« Reply #92 on: February 13, 2009, 12:04:15 PM »

Posts about the Council of Florence can now be found here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19708.0.html

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« Reply #93 on: February 13, 2009, 01:45:26 PM »

Always thought it was the conversion of communists...

Nope, it was always the conversion of the Orthodox. It was always the "Conquest of Holy Mother Russia."

Here is the Catholic hope for the conquest of Russia and bringing it under Roman obedience..

Have a look at the picture in the March, 1990
issue of the Catholic magazine 30 Days.

30 Days is one of Italy's best Catholic magazines and has a workldwide distribution in several languages.

This has a host of issues as a source. First, it's out of context: presumably this is the beginning of an article, but if so, the content of the article is missing. Second, I have no idea who publishes 30Giorni and therefore whose viewpoint is being represented. Third, this material has major "Say where you got it" problems. What I see looks like an old scan of a paper magazine of unknown provenance. Where did this image come from? If you didn't scan it yourself, then who did? What's their angle? What I see here could well be something from the nuts who want to religiously take over Russia, or it could be from a respectable journal warning that the nuts are out there.

Now, there are certainly Feeneyite/Grunerite crazies out there. One of Keble's laws of religion is that "There are no allergen-free churches." Orthodoxy has its corresponding hyperCyprianite pious tale-passers, so you might want to put the stone down until you get the Lexan storm windows up. So far, though, the evidence is stacking up that the claims being made are either (a) flatly untrue, or (b) exaggerated to the extent of being essentially untrue, or (c) represent to views/policies of fringe elements with no Vatican approbation. The time has come for the people who started passing these tales to either pony up some real, solid evidence, or admit that they've been caught passing derogatory rumors.
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« Reply #94 on: February 13, 2009, 01:54:10 PM »

I would like to mention that Sister Lucia, one of the three children to receive the apparitions of the Theotokos at Fatima, was asked in 1946 by a young Russian pilgrim (Natacha Derfelden) at Fatima how the conversion of Russia would take place.

Sister Lucia replied that it would happen through the Orthodox Church and the "Oriental rite" (i.e., Byzantine) of the Catholic Church.




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« Reply #95 on: February 13, 2009, 02:23:23 PM »

I would like to mention that Sister Lucia, one of the three children to receive the apparitions of the Theotokos at Fatima, was asked in 1946 by a young Russian pilgrim (Natacha Derfelden) at Fatima how the conversion of Russia would take place.

Sister Lucia replied that it would happen through the Orthodox Church and the "Oriental rite" (i.e., Byzantine) of the Catholic Church.



So then it does have to do with the conversion of Russia to accept papal authority?  One gets so confused by the contradictions that come out of Rome and the Vatican!

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« Reply #96 on: February 13, 2009, 04:11:14 PM »

I would like to mention that Sister Lucia, one of the three children to receive the apparitions of the Theotokos at Fatima, was asked in 1946 by a young Russian pilgrim (Natacha Derfelden) at Fatima how the conversion of Russia would take place.

Sister Lucia replied that it would happen through the Orthodox Church and the "Oriental rite" (i.e., Byzantine) of the Catholic Church.



So then it does have to do with the conversion of Russia to accept papal authority?  One gets so confused by the contradictions that come out of Rome and the Vatican!

Orthodoc


I've never heard this account before, but nonetheless, it seems to support the Christ vs. Atheistic Communism point of view, rather than Orthodox vs. Roman Catholic one.
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« Reply #97 on: February 13, 2009, 04:37:18 PM »

Since this is really beginning to irritate me I'd like to point out that I have plenty of room to demand that both the pope and the patriarchs of the east should get out of the U.K., since it's our territory (well, except for Scotland, which belongs to those Presbyterians).

"Lucky for you we're C of E!"
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« Reply #98 on: February 13, 2009, 05:34:04 PM »

Since this is really beginning to irritate me I'd like to point out that I have plenty of room to demand that both the pope and the patriarchs of the east should get out of the U.K., since it's our territory (well, except for Scotland, which belongs to those Presbyterians).

"Lucky for you we're C of E!"

I remember that some Orthodox Church got title to an old decrepid church that happened to have some relics/remains of some canonized Saxon king. When the government got wind of the oversite, they asked for the bones.  The Church said, "our king, our saint, our relics," and refused.

There still seems to be some interdict on any bishops but the C of E for any historic sees.  From what's to be seen, it seems the UK is becoming virgin territory for the Gospel.  How ironic, after the London Bible Society came to us to "bring Christ."
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« Reply #99 on: February 13, 2009, 06:00:12 PM »

I would like to mention that Sister Lucia, one of the three children to receive the apparitions of the Theotokos at Fatima, was asked in 1946 by a young Russian pilgrim (Natacha Derfelden) at Fatima how the conversion of Russia would take place.

Sister Lucia replied that it would happen through the Orthodox Church and the "Oriental rite" (i.e., Byzantine) of the Catholic Church.



So then it does have to do with the conversion of Russia to accept papal authority?  One gets so confused by the contradictions that come out of Rome and the Vatican!

Orthodoc


I've never heard this account before, but nonetheless, it seems to support the Christ vs. Atheistic Communism point of view, rather than Orthodox vs. Roman Catholic one.

Really!  My interpretation is the exact opposite. What it tells me she was implying is that unity would come in effect by an accepted unia as the part of an agreeement between both churches.
How much do you know about what happened when this 'U' church was fromed and how it came about?

The Ukrainian Catholic Church has already proposed an Orthodox Church that was under both the EP amd Pope at the same time!  This was rejected by both.

Off hand this reply makes no sense if this young girl didn't even know Russia was a country when she asked for the prayers.

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« Reply #100 on: February 13, 2009, 06:02:20 PM »

Since this is really beginning to irritate me I'd like to point out that I have plenty of room to demand that both the pope and the patriarchs of the east should get out of the U.K., since it's our territory (well, except for Scotland, which belongs to those Presbyterians).

"Lucky for you we're C of E!"

I remember that some Orthodox Church got title to an old decrepid church that happened to have some relics/remains of some canonized Saxon king. When the government got wind of the oversite, they asked for the bones.  The Church said, "our king, our saint, our relics," and refused.

There still seems to be some interdict on any bishops but the C of E for any historic sees.  From what's to be seen, it seems the UK is becoming virgin territory for the Gospel.  How ironic, after the London Bible Society came to us to "bring Christ."

Think it was the relics of St Edward that were being kept in the run down church.

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« Reply #101 on: February 13, 2009, 07:42:12 PM »

While you guys sort this out let me quickly say, evil and wickedness know no boundaries...
On the contrary, they do have boundaries (apparently). They are bounded by the edges of the Catholic Church. Haven't you been reading this thread?

I'm a maverick arghh, Palin worn that out... laugh
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« Reply #102 on: February 13, 2009, 07:43:25 PM »

In 1917, Our Lady of Fatima said,

"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

What is the meaning of "converted"?

The greatest of all Fatima experts, Fr. Joaquin Alonso (the official archivist of Fatima), who had talked with Sister Lucy many times:

"The 'conversion' of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian people to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church."


That statement seems clear enough.
 

 And this is fully in line with the papal teachings of that period:

 
Pope Pius XI clearly stated:

"For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful?"   ~Pope Pius XI,  in Mortalium animos 1928.

 
Pope Pius XII warned about confusion regarding the one true Church, the Roman Catholic Church:

"The Catholic doctrine will have to be proposed and expressed totally and integrally: what the Catholic Church teaches about the true nature and means of justification, about the constitution of the Church, about the primacy of the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, about the only true union which is accomplished with the return of the dissidents to the only true Church of Christ, must not be passed over in silence or covered over in ambiguous words." ~ Pope Pius XII, in On the Ecumenical Movement 1949.

In the context of its times and certainly as it was taught through the 1950s and 60s (the times I remember) the conversion of Russia was certainly to Roman Catholicism.  This, after all, was genuinely considered by Catholics of that time, as the greatest of all possible blessings.

 

« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 07:49:16 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #103 on: February 13, 2009, 08:14:15 PM »

I remember that some Orthodox Church got title to an old decrepid church that happened to have some relics/remains of some canonized Saxon king. When the government got wind of the oversite, they asked for the bones.  The Church said, "our king, our saint, our relics," and refused.

There still seems to be some interdict on any bishops but the C of E for any historic sees.  From what's to be seen, it seems the UK is becoming virgin territory for the Gospel.  How ironic, after the London Bible Society came to us to "bring Christ."

If you're talking about the relics of Edward the Martyr, this isn't even remotely what happened. The relics in question were removed from a church in 1931 during archaeological excavations. When the discoverer went to donate them to a ROCOR parish (brotherhood?) in England, a wide range of controversies erupted. It's hard to get a straight story on this because the only sources I can find are on the Orthodox side, and they aren't consistent; but it does seem that the C of E did put in a claim, along with others claiming that they weren't the true relics, still others that claimed the church in those days was using the filioque (and that therefore he wasn't a saint), and I may have missed a few parties. The relics sat in a bank vault until the legal/hagiographical/forensic dust settled, at which time the ROCOR parish did receive them.
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« Reply #104 on: February 13, 2009, 10:23:33 PM »

In 1917, Our Lady of Fatima said,

"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

What is the meaning of "converted"?

The greatest of all Fatima experts, Fr. Joaquin Alonso (the official archivist of Fatima), who had talked with Sister Lucy many times:

"The 'conversion' of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian people to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church."


That statement seems clear enough.
 

 And this is fully in line with the papal teachings of that period:

 
Pope Pius XI clearly stated:

"For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful?"   ~Pope Pius XI,  in Mortalium animos 1928.

 
Pope Pius XII warned about confusion regarding the one true Church, the Roman Catholic Church:

"The Catholic doctrine will have to be proposed and expressed totally and integrally: what the Catholic Church teaches about the true nature and means of justification, about the constitution of the Church, about the primacy of the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, about the only true union which is accomplished with the return of the dissidents to the only true Church of Christ, must not be passed over in silence or covered over in ambiguous words." ~ Pope Pius XII, in On the Ecumenical Movement 1949.

In the context of its times and certainly as it was taught through the 1950s and 60s (the times I remember) the conversion of Russia was certainly to Roman Catholicism.  This, after all, was genuinely considered by Catholics of that time, as the greatest of all possible blessings.

 


1. Fatima is a private revelation and Catholics don't have to believe it.
2. According to sister Lucy, the consecration has already been done.
3. The older theology as given above by Irish Hermit has been superceded by the Balamad document which mentions the need for "a will to pardon" .
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« Reply #105 on: February 13, 2009, 11:04:01 PM »

Dear Stanley123,

What you are saying doesn't make much sense over here. If Fatima is a private revelation and Catholics don't have to believe it, then what do you all do when you go to an Our Lady of Fatima parish to celebrate the feast day that is on the Roman Catholic "Universal" that is, worldwide official liturgical calander.

It would seem strange to me for Catholics to say "We here but we don't have to believe this Fatima worldwide celebration within the RC community that is on the calander."

Is this part of the newer 'theology', how do they see it? It seems rather confusing or deluded to me, I would think if something like a 'feast day' is on your calander to embrace you would have to believe it to properly celebrate it.



In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

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« Reply #106 on: February 13, 2009, 11:20:17 PM »

In 1917, Our Lady of Fatima said,

"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

What is the meaning of "converted"?

The greatest of all Fatima experts, Fr. Joaquin Alonso (the official archivist of Fatima), who had talked with Sister Lucy many times:

"The 'conversion' of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian people to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church."


That statement seems clear enough.
 

 And this is fully in line with the papal teachings of that period:

 
Pope Pius XI clearly stated:

"For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful?"   ~Pope Pius XI,  in Mortalium animos 1928.

 
Pope Pius XII warned about confusion regarding the one true Church, the Roman Catholic Church:

"The Catholic doctrine will have to be proposed and expressed totally and integrally: what the Catholic Church teaches about the true nature and means of justification, about the constitution of the Church, about the primacy of the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, about the only true union which is accomplished with the return of the dissidents to the only true Church of Christ, must not be passed over in silence or covered over in ambiguous words." ~ Pope Pius XII, in On the Ecumenical Movement 1949.

In the context of its times and certainly as it was taught through the 1950s and 60s (the times I remember) the conversion of Russia was certainly to Roman Catholicism.  This, after all, was genuinely considered by Catholics of that time, as the greatest of all possible blessings.

 


Sources?
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« Reply #107 on: February 14, 2009, 12:15:47 AM »

In 1917, Our Lady of Fatima said,

"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

What is the meaning of "converted"?

The greatest of all Fatima experts, Fr. Joaquin Alonso (the official archivist of Fatima), who had talked with Sister Lucy many times:

"The 'conversion' of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian people to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church."


That statement seems clear enough.
 

 And this is fully in line with the papal teachings of that period:

 
Pope Pius XI clearly stated:

"For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful?"   ~Pope Pius XI,  in Mortalium animos 1928.

 
Pope Pius XII warned about confusion regarding the one true Church, the Roman Catholic Church:

"The Catholic doctrine will have to be proposed and expressed totally and integrally: what the Catholic Church teaches about the true nature and means of justification, about the constitution of the Church, about the primacy of the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, about the only true union which is accomplished with the return of the dissidents to the only true Church of Christ, must not be passed over in silence or covered over in ambiguous words." ~ Pope Pius XII, in On the Ecumenical Movement 1949.

In the context of its times and certainly as it was taught through the 1950s and 60s (the times I remember) the conversion of Russia was certainly to Roman Catholicism.  This, after all, was genuinely considered by Catholics of that time, as the greatest of all possible blessings.

 


Sources?


Sources?Huh??  I think Father Ambrose provided the sources!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #108 on: February 14, 2009, 01:02:28 AM »

In 1917, Our Lady of Fatima said,

"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

What is the meaning of "converted"?

The greatest of all Fatima experts, Fr. Joaquin Alonso (the official archivist of Fatima), who had talked with Sister Lucy many times:

"The 'conversion' of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian people to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church."


That statement seems clear enough.
 

 And this is fully in line with the papal teachings of that period:

 
Pope Pius XI clearly stated:

"For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful?"   ~Pope Pius XI,  in Mortalium animos 1928.

 
Pope Pius XII warned about confusion regarding the one true Church, the Roman Catholic Church:

"The Catholic doctrine will have to be proposed and expressed totally and integrally: what the Catholic Church teaches about the true nature and means of justification, about the constitution of the Church, about the primacy of the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, about the only true union which is accomplished with the return of the dissidents to the only true Church of Christ, must not be passed over in silence or covered over in ambiguous words." ~ Pope Pius XII, in On the Ecumenical Movement 1949.

In the context of its times and certainly as it was taught through the 1950s and 60s (the times I remember) the conversion of Russia was certainly to Roman Catholicism.  This, after all, was genuinely considered by Catholics of that time, as the greatest of all possible blessings.

 


Sources?


Sources?Huh??  I think Father Ambrose provided the sources!

Orthodoc
No, what Fr. Ambrose provided was excerpts from sources--proof texts, if you will.  I'm hoping for links to the whole documents so we can read the sources ourselves and cross-reference what he snipped against the documents from which he cut his snippets.
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« Reply #109 on: February 14, 2009, 01:08:24 AM »

http://www.byzantinecatholic.org/
http://www.byzantinecatholic.org/AboutUs/FrKarl.html

Quote
History of Our Lady of Fatima Church
Rev. Hieromonk Karl Patzel, S.J.
Jesuit Magazine, 1970

On the corner of Lake Street and 20th Avenue, in San Francisco's Richmond District, stands a pleasant, substantial mansion and enclosed garden. The house contains the Chapel of Our Lady of Fatima, a research library, and meeting rooms. The garden surrounds the outdoor shrine of Our Lady of Fatima. Both are surmounted by the familiar onionshaped cupolas peculiar to Russian churches, each topped with the distinctive Russian cross.

This foundation is of recent origin and was not the first attempt to establish a center of Russian Catholic spirituality in San Francisco. This house was bought for that purpose in March 1955, but the graphic story of the origin, growth and development of Our Lady of Fatima Russian Center began in 1950, with the aim of caring for the Russian exiles who had been uprooted from their old civilization in Russia with the advent of Communism. After years of sojourn in China and the Philippines, these people had arrived in San Francisco, bringing with them a history of endurance, courage and tenacity to their faith and traditions.

During the year 1950, the idea of founding in San Francisco a place for Catholic presence among the Russians assumed more concrete form. It began with the arrival of Father Fionan Brannigan, S.J. and of ships from China with Russian refugees. Father Feodor Wilcock, S.J. joined him in May 1952. Both were Byzantine Rite Jesuits, trained in Rome for the Russian Apostolate. Now they were working with the Russian Diaspora in San Francisco.

These priests went frequently to the port to meet ships from the Philippine Islands, Tubabao and Hong Kong. They met the lonely immigrants, some of whom were Catholic, and blessed them in their own language, giving them strength and courage to accept their life in a strange new land. Both priests were convinced that a distinctly Russian Catholic Church of the Byzantine Rite was needed to be a vital force in the life of these people and to preserve their religious traditions.
Father Bock had been the Czar's last envoy to the Vatican. Later, he became a Catholic and joined the Society of Jesus. It was in those days that Bishop Guilfoyle wrote about a "Russian Dolores", because it was at Mission Dolores that Father Bock celebrated the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is called in the Byzantine Rite). Mission Dolores, founded by the Spanish Padres, now echoed with Slavonic liturgical melodies.Many Russian people and the Knights of Columbus helped selflessly, in countless evening and Saturday shifts, to repair and reshape the house. The entry to the house became the entrance to the chapel. A new entrance had to he made on Lake Street for the rest of the house. On October 14. 1956. the house and the chapel were solemnly blessed by Bishop Donahue in honor of Our Lady of Fatima. This name was chosen because of the Mother of God's intense interest in the conversion of expressed by her prophecy to the three children of Fatima in Portugal: "Russia will he converted.

The principal aim is, and was from its very beginning, to serve the spiritual, educational and welfare needs of the Russian colony; to provide religious leadership; to offer encouragementto the Russian faithful in the practice of their religion; and to serve as an agency of assistance in their various needs. Our secondary aim is to acquaint Latin Rite Catholics with the Byzantine Rite and to offer those not of Russian nationality an opportunity to participate in the Russian spiritual heritage.

These are some of the ways the Byzantine Jesuits at the Russian Center (who are, of course, affiliated with the University of San Francisco) fulfill the spiritual and sometimes the material needs of the citizens of Russian origin in San Francisco.

A few words about the division of the Russian colony withregard to their religious affiliations may help give some understanding of the various Russian churches. Russians are usually assumed to be of Russian Orthodox faith. However, here in San Francisco, as in all of North and South America, the Russian Orthodox were split into three jurisdictions: (1) Russian Americans, with the Cathedral of the Holy Trinity at Van Ness Avenue and Green Street; (2) the Russian Orthodox Church outside Russia (the Emigrant Church), at the Holy Virgin Cathedral, Geary Boulevard and 26th Avenues; (3) the Church loyal to the Patriarch of Moscow, St. Nicholas Cathedral is located on 15th Street near Market. All three jurisdictions had observers at the recent Vatican Council.

In conversations with many Orthodox Russians, I have to answer numerous questions about the Catholic Church. Not long ago, I had a discussion with an Orthodox lady, recently arrived from Brazil, which could be of wide interest. She complained about a certain narrowness she had encountered among some of her new friends. She said she had been threatened with excommunication if she dared to attend a church other than her own. I reminded her that among Russians in San Francisco, as among other people, there are those of different frames of mind. There are those like Simeon, longingly expecting the Saviour, who look forward to His return. These people are of the past, for the future belongs to those who work and sacrifice for the unity of Christians. As a warrant, we have the word of Our Lord: "One flock and one shepherd" (Jn 10:16). His prayer for unity among His Apostles on the evening before His own sacrifice was simply a prophecy.

From another angle also, we learn from the Apostle John that God is Love. Everyone knows from his own experience that love is the principle of unity even here on earth. People in love want to he together. The literature of all nations is full of examples of this fact. Relatives travel thousands of miles to be together. The opposite principle is hatred, the principle of divisiveness, which poisons relations between people. This is the work of the devil (from the Greek "diabolos"-the slanderer-and, as we remember, he was a liar from the beginning). This line of thought is easily applied to the question of ecumenism, mentioned above. Realizing all this, our Center has become a place where we work with all our strength for unity among Christians, striving to promote this unity among Russians and all Christians: "Ut omnes unum sint" (Jn 17:20).

Quote
The Religion of Russia

There are two theories in regard to the early Christianity of Russia; according to one of them, Russia was Catholic from the times when she embraced Christianity until the twelfth century; the other holds that Russia was always Orthodox, i.e., an adherent of the Greek schism, from the time when Christian missionaries first crossed her frontiers.

The sound principles of Catholicism, however, were maintained and propagated by the Jesuits who, suppressed by the Holy See and exiled from the Catholic nations, found an asylum and the centre of their future revival in Russia. In 1779 Catharine II invited the Jesuits to exercise their ministry in White Russia, and in 1786 they had in Russia six colleges and 178 members. Their number increased so much that Pius VII re-established their order for Russia, where it returned to life under Father Gruber. In 1801 the society had 262 members, and 347 in 1811. The Jesuits retained a lively gratitude for the hospitality that they had received in Russia, and worked with zeal to convert it to Catholicism.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13253a.htm
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« Reply #110 on: February 14, 2009, 01:26:44 AM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

The implication that Father Ambrose's sources and the snippets he presents require verification for you is very insulting to you you know.

In the Orthodox Church our Priests are not subject to lectures by moderating catechumens like Nebelpfade in forums or elsewhere. Additionally it is not part of the Orthodox tradition that recent converts subject the comments and understandings of our beloved and highly respected Priests to the scrutiny of those that have a lesser tenure in Orthodox praxis or unquestionable Priestly ethos of many years.

He is not subject to you and if you can't take his words as truthful then the Orthodox way of learning to discern some very basic things is not through asking a Priest for sources.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

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« Reply #111 on: February 14, 2009, 01:53:18 AM »


Sources?Huh??  I think Father Ambrose provided the sources!

Orthodoc

I agree; the sources are there. Maybe not via convenient hypertext links, but then hard copy publication footnotes and bibliography are not convenient either.
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« Reply #112 on: February 14, 2009, 02:01:41 AM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

The implication that Father Ambrose's sources and the snippets he presents require verification for you is very insulting to you you know.

In the Orthodox Church our Priests are not subject to lectures by moderating catechumens like Nebelpfade in forums or elsewhere. Additionally it is not part of the Orthodox tradition that recent converts subject the comments and understandings of our beloved and highly respected Priests to the scrutiny of those that have a lesser tenure in Orthodox praxis or unquestionable Priestly ethos of many years.

He is not subject to you and if you can't take his words as truthful then the Orthodox way of learning to discern some very basic things is not through asking a Priest for sources.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin




I agree with the above ...Please  Show respect To Our Saintly Father Ambrose...
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« Reply #113 on: February 14, 2009, 02:02:20 AM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

The implication that Father Ambrose's sources and the snippets he presents require verification for you is very insulting to you you know.

In the Orthodox Church our Priests are not subject to lectures by moderating catechumens like Nebelpfade in forums or elsewhere. Additionally it is not part of the Orthodox tradition that recent converts subject the comments and understandings of our beloved and highly respected Priests to the scrutiny of those that have a lesser tenure in Orthodox praxis or unquestionable Priestly ethos of many years.

He is not subject to you and if you can't take his words as truthful then the Orthodox way of learning to discern some very basic things is not through asking a Priest for sources.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin



Thank you Matthew for saying what needed to be said.  I have never seen so much disrespect for a beloved Orthodox clergyman as I have read here in the past few weeks.  I can't help wonder why this is so.  Is it because of people who are new to the faith and still don't quite understand the Orthodox ethos?  

Go in any Roman Catholic discussion group and see how long anyone would last (Roman Catholic or non Roman Catholic) if they treated a RC  priest as  Fr Ambrose has been treated by some here.  And by moderators no less!

This conception that if we defend the faith we are preceived as nasty & arrogant and will turn people away is ridiculous.  If that were true we wouldn't have been banned from the Catholic Answers Forum due to the amount of people who were showing interest in Orthodoxy or converting to Orthodoxy because of our defending the Orthodox Catholic faith!

I can imagine what the reaction to this post will be by some, but my heart aches for the way a man of the cloth that I have learned so much from, and have such love and respect for, with nothing being done.  I was edited for using the 'U' word but there was absolutely no editing done of the vile words and name calling by one of the moderators here.

Once again, thanks for saying what needed to be said.  You were much more civil than I would have been.  But then again, I'm not know for sugar coating my words just to impress someone.

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« Reply #114 on: February 14, 2009, 02:11:03 AM »

In 1917, Our Lady of Fatima said,

"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

What is the meaning of "converted"?

The greatest of all Fatima experts, Fr. Joaquin Alonso (the official archivist of Fatima), who had talked with Sister Lucy many times:

"The 'conversion' of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian people to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church."


That statement seems clear enough.
 

 And this is fully in line with the papal teachings of that period:

 
Pope Pius XI clearly stated:

"For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, the Mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful?"   ~Pope Pius XI,  in Mortalium animos 1928.

 
Pope Pius XII warned about confusion regarding the one true Church, the Roman Catholic Church:

"The Catholic doctrine will have to be proposed and expressed totally and integrally: what the Catholic Church teaches about the true nature and means of justification, about the constitution of the Church, about the primacy of the jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, about the only true union which is accomplished with the return of the dissidents to the only true Church of Christ, must not be passed over in silence or covered over in ambiguous words." ~ Pope Pius XII, in On the Ecumenical Movement 1949.

In the context of its times and certainly as it was taught through the 1950s and 60s (the times I remember) the conversion of Russia was certainly to Roman Catholicism.  This, after all, was genuinely considered by Catholics of that time, as the greatest of all possible blessings.

 


Sources?


Sources?Huh??  I think Father Ambrose provided the sources!

Orthodoc
No, what Fr. Ambrose provided was excerpts from sources--proof texts, if you will.  I'm hoping for links to the whole documents so we can read the sources ourselves and cross-reference what he snipped against the documents from which he cut his snippets.

Then perhaps you should have worded it that way or sent him a PM.

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« Reply #115 on: February 14, 2009, 02:14:25 AM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

The implication that Father Ambrose's sources and the snippets he presents require verification for you is very insulting to you you know.

In the Orthodox Church our Priests are not subject to lectures by moderating catechumens like Nebelpfade in forums or elsewhere. Additionally it is not part of the Orthodox tradition that recent converts subject the comments and understandings of our beloved and highly respected Priests to the scrutiny of those that have a lesser tenure in Orthodox praxis or unquestionable Priestly ethos of many years.

He is not subject to you and if you can't take his words as truthful then the Orthodox way of learning to discern some very basic things is not through asking a Priest for sources.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin


For one thing, Matthew--and I say the following also to Orthodoc and stashko, who posted replies while I typed this--Fr. Ambrose is not the only priest on this forum.  You may notice that two of our Admins, Fr. Anastasios and Fr. Chris, are both priests, which I've verified from sources outside this forum.

Secondly, anyone can claim to be a priest online, and, without outside sources, I am forced to either take him at his word or not.  I say this not to imply that Irish Hermit is, in fact, not whom he claims to be; I'm actually granting him the benefit of the doubt by assuming that he is.  Even so, I have seen nothing from any outside sources that confirm beyond any reasonable doubt that Irish Hermit is really the Hieromonk Ambrose.

Third, even a priest must be held to the same outside standard of truth to which all Orthodox must submit.  Assuming that Irish Hermit is indeed a priest, his identity and priestly office does not automatically give him unquestionable authority on all matters pertaining to Orthodox faith or relations with non-Orthodox churches.  This is especially true when it can be shown from external sources that he has been less than honest with us.
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« Reply #116 on: February 14, 2009, 02:19:54 AM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

The implication that Father Ambrose's sources and the snippets he presents require verification for you is very insulting to you you know.

In the Orthodox Church our Priests are not subject to lectures by moderating catechumens like Nebelpfade in forums or elsewhere. Additionally it is not part of the Orthodox tradition that recent converts subject the comments and understandings of our beloved and highly respected Priests to the scrutiny of those that have a lesser tenure in Orthodox praxis or unquestionable Priestly ethos of many years.

He is not subject to you and if you can't take his words as truthful then the Orthodox way of learning to discern some very basic things is not through asking a Priest for sources.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin



Thank you Matthew for saying what needed to be said.  I have never seen so much disrespect for a beloved Orthodox clergyman as I have read here in the past few weeks.  I can't help wonder why this is so.  Is it because of people who are new to the faith and still don't quite understand the Orthodox ethos?  

Go in any Roman Catholic discussion group and see how long anyone would last (Roman Catholic or non Roman Catholic) if they treated a RC  priest as  Fr Ambrose has been treated by some here.  And by moderators no less!

This conception that if we defend the faith we are preceived as nasty & arrogant and will turn people away is ridiculous.  If that were true we wouldn't have been banned from the Catholic Answers Forum due to the amount of people who were showing interest in Orthodoxy or converting to Orthodoxy because of our defending the Orthodox Catholic faith!

I can imagine what the reaction to this post will be by some, but my heart aches for the way a man of the cloth that I have learned so much from, and have such love and respect for, with nothing being done.  I was edited for using the 'U' word but there was absolutely no editing done of the vile words and name calling by one of the moderators here.

Once again, thanks for saying what needed to be said.  You were much more civil than I would have been.  But then again, I'm not know for sugar coating my words just to impress someone.

Orthodoc


I also Agree with this ..very well put...............
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« Reply #117 on: February 14, 2009, 02:24:54 AM »

It's Getting to a point on this forum when defending The True Ancient Orthodox Way,,, Not the watered Down version ,,were labeled hateful.....
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« Reply #118 on: February 14, 2009, 02:27:33 AM »

Okay, are you guys going to return to the topic of this thread, or are you going to continue to use this thread to air your dirty laundry against the work of the Moderator team in direct violation of Nebelpfade's directive that you stop this?  In case you have forgotten, let me refer you to this post:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19681.msg292156.html#msg292156
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« Reply #119 on: February 14, 2009, 02:35:34 AM »

Third, even a priest must be held to the same outside standard of truth to which all Orthodox must submit.  Assuming that Irish Hermit is indeed a priest, his identity and priestly office does not automatically give him unquestionable authority on all matters pertaining to Orthodox faith or relations with non-Orthodox churches.  This is especially true when it can be shown from external sources that he has been less than honest with us.
Additional comment:  Did not the evangelist St. Luke actually praise the Bereans for looking to the Scriptures to verify that what St. Paul preached to them was indeed true?  For not trusting St. Paul MERELY because he claimed to be an Apostle?  (See Acts 17:11)  I think the same applies here as regards our responsibility to verify Fr. Ambrose's word against the witness of outside sources.
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« Reply #120 on: February 14, 2009, 02:40:09 AM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

The implication that Father Ambrose's sources and the snippets he presents require verification for you is very insulting to you you know.

In the Orthodox Church our Priests are not subject to lectures by moderating catechumens like Nebelpfade in forums or elsewhere. Additionally it is not part of the Orthodox tradition that recent converts subject the comments and understandings of our beloved and highly respected Priests to the scrutiny of those that have a lesser tenure in Orthodox praxis or unquestionable Priestly ethos of many years.

He is not subject to you and if you can't take his words as truthful then the Orthodox way of learning to discern some very basic things is not through asking a Priest for sources.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin


For one thing, Matthew--and I say the following also to Orthodoc and stashko, who posted replies while I typed this--Fr. Ambrose is not the only priest on this forum.  You may notice that two of our Admins, Fr. Anastasios and Fr. Chris, are both priests, which I've verified from sources outside this forum.

Secondly, anyone can claim to be a priest online, and, without outside sources, I am forced to either take him at his word or not.  I say this not to imply that Irish Hermit is, in fact, not whom he claims to be; I'm actually granting him the benefit of the doubt by assuming that he is.  Even so, I have seen nothing from any outside sources that confirm beyond any reasonable doubt that Irish Hermit is really the Hieromonk Ambrose.

Third, even a priest must be held to the same outside standard of truth to which all Orthodox must submit.  Assuming that Irish Hermit is indeed a priest, his identity and priestly office does not automatically give him unquestionable authority on all matters pertaining to Orthodox faith or relations with non-Orthodox churches.  This is especially true when it can be shown from external sources that he has been less than honest with us.

 Fr.Anastasios and Fr.Chris never showed us there ordination paper's and i would never ever ask them too..Il show them respect when writing to them by addressing them  Fr.  Bless...They told us they are clergy and in respect  i take there word For it...
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« Reply #121 on: February 14, 2009, 02:47:51 AM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

The implication that Father Ambrose's sources and the snippets he presents require verification for you is very insulting to you you know.

In the Orthodox Church our Priests are not subject to lectures by moderating catechumens like Nebelpfade in forums or elsewhere. Additionally it is not part of the Orthodox tradition that recent converts subject the comments and understandings of our beloved and highly respected Priests to the scrutiny of those that have a lesser tenure in Orthodox praxis or unquestionable Priestly ethos of many years.

He is not subject to you and if you can't take his words as truthful then the Orthodox way of learning to discern some very basic things is not through asking a Priest for sources.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin


For one thing, Matthew--and I say the following also to Orthodoc and stashko, who posted replies while I typed this--Fr. Ambrose is not the only priest on this forum.  You may notice that two of our Admins, Fr. Anastasios and Fr. Chris, are both priests, which I've verified from sources outside this forum.

Secondly, anyone can claim to be a priest online, and, without outside sources, I am forced to either take him at his word or not.  I say this not to imply that Irish Hermit is, in fact, not whom he claims to be; I'm actually granting him the benefit of the doubt by assuming that he is.  Even so, I have seen nothing from any outside sources that confirm beyond any reasonable doubt that Irish Hermit is really the Hieromonk Ambrose.

Third, even a priest must be held to the same outside standard of truth to which all Orthodox must submit.  Assuming that Irish Hermit is indeed a priest, his identity and priestly office does not automatically give him unquestionable authority on all matters pertaining to Orthodox faith or relations with non-Orthodox churches.  This is especially true when it can be shown from external sources that he has been less than honest with us.

 Fr.Anastasios and Fr.Chris never showed us there ordination paper's and i would never ever ask them too..Il show them respect when writing to them by addressing them  Fr.  Bless...They told us they are clergy and in respect  i take there word For it...

If anyone questioned Fr Ambrose and his background all they had to do is ask him for his background.  He was born in Ireland and  is a convert from Roman Catholicism who spent years in the Serbian Orthodox Church in the Balkans and is now in ROCOR and living in New Zealand.  But I should let him decide if further info on his background is necessary -

http://www.orthodoxchurch.org.nz/parishes.php

Wellington:Christ the Saviour Church
62 Darlington Rd
Miramar
Hieromonk Fr Ambrose
   

Orthodoc

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« Reply #122 on: February 14, 2009, 03:15:39 AM »

Dear Bob,

You don't happen to have his phone number so we can check him out? I have been trying to get it to no avail. I thought maybe he is back in that cave on the cliff in Serbia again but he took a laptop.

In Christ,

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« Reply #123 on: February 14, 2009, 03:22:23 AM »

Dear Peter the Aleut,

While much of what you say compels me to wonder how old you are and most certainly leads me to conclude that your knowledge of the Orthodox Church is less than others. I take you at your word that you are an Orthodox Christian. Should you or others feel comfortable implying that Father Ambrose is a fraud and that he is less than honest from the external sources you rely on then yours and the delusions of others will continue. That is how people can become comfortable for now calling a much beloved Priest a liar and other things.

You have mentioned:

Third, even a priest must be held to the same outside standard of truth to which all Orthodox must submit. 

This is a notion that is quite far from Orthodox understandings. The standard of truth that is difficult for you to discern does not come from outside standards of truth.

You have also mentioned:

Assuming that Irish Hermit is indeed a priest, his identity and priestly office does not automatically give him unquestionable authority on all matters pertaining to Orthodox faith or relations with non-Orthodox churches.  This is especially true when it can be shown from external sources that he has been less than honest with us.

Father Ambrose actually used to represent the Serbian Orthodox Church in 'Ecumenical talks' that was at the request of my current bishop and his former bishopsome years ago now. His reputation with the Synod of Bishops at ROCOR is well known. He is also much beloved in and has never been seen as dishonest with other jurisdictions.

My former bishop Archbishop Alypy (ROCOR) is well aware of his internet activities. He gave me blessing to participate on the CA Forum after I mentioned Father Ambrose we be there as well so that Bob and I could obey my bishop at the time and "try to stop the uniates from telling lies."
We painted an icon for Bob. Bob liked it, Saint Job if my memory serves me correctly.

You see the internal sources that do not think that he is less than honest think very highly of him. Could you explain to me the nature of the disconnection you are experiencing relative to your thoughts on Father Ambrose in comparison to the thoughts of many Orthodox Bishops, brother Orthodox Priests, Roman Catholic Priests and others that he has enjoyed such a wonderful relationship with over many years now? How long have you known him and how is it that you are not capable of discerning an Orthodox Priests Priesthood? Is something wrong there since you'll can only assume it?

Perhaps you might want to consider that the external source that you rely on can be falsified by you since you use them to falsely to say that Father Ambrose might not be a Priest and true when it can be shown from external sources that he has been less than honest with us.

In the Orthodox Christian tradition we look to the internal source such things should rightly be addressed from within the realm of Orthodox ascetical theology.

Ok Peter the Aluet, back to Fatima, your comode rator Ozgeorge has mentioned:

Are you saying that the apparitions at Fatima were apparitions of demons?

St Gregory of Sinai mentions the below and Orthodox monks and Priestmonks of these days would agree with St. Gregory.

"If while engaged in spiritual work you see a light or a fire outside you, or a form supposedly of Christ or of an angel or of someone else, reject it lest you suffer harm. And do not pay court to images, lest you allow them to stamp themselves on your intellect. For all these things that externally and inopportunely assume various guises do so in order to delude your soul."

You see Peter your heart is inside you. Do me a favor remember the good Father Ambrose in your prayers you might see a Celtic Cross sometime so that your soul is not confused.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin
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« Reply #124 on: February 14, 2009, 03:26:09 AM »

Okay, this thread is starting to turn into a discussion of Irish Hermit and his credentials, which is a deviation from the topic of this thread (i.e., the alleged Fatima appearance of the Theotokos) and a violation of the spirit of Nebelpfade's directive (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19681.msg292156.html#msg292156).  Therefore, I am locking this thread pending Nebelpfade's final word on this matter.
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« Reply #125 on: February 14, 2009, 10:11:44 AM »

This thread has gone off topic for the last time, it will stay locked.

Also, all members are held to the same standards on this forum.  If you provide us with information, a proper source is expected.  This is done to encourage proper debate and discussion but is also the direct request by our administrators Fr. Anastasios and Fr. Chris, both ordained Orthodox Priests.  If you have qualm with their policies, you will have to bring it up with them, for moderators merely enforce the rules.

If you have a complaint or issue with my moderating decisions, please PM ozgeorge or Fr. Chris about it.

-- Nebelpfade
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As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
Tags: apparitions Fatima 
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